This interview has been published by Namrata Singh and The SuperLawyer Team
Can you share what initially inspired you to pursue a legal career and how this journey has shaped your professional philosophy?
My introduction to law happened in my 7th or 8th grade (around 2002) – my father was arguing a matter before the High Court – I knew nothing about what a Court is, what a lawyer does or for that matter, even what a Judge did. I was curious because I wanted to know what my dad did for a living.
It was a tax matter that he and his team were arguing – I didn’t quite understand the matter because I went on the 3rd day of their arguments, so a large part of the matter had been argued. But I understood the underlying transaction and the business model.
This pulled me into reading newspapers, especially the business section, to understand the changing aspects of the business environment, new technologies etc. I decided then, that science and aspects of science, are not my cup of tea and to pursue arts and commerce, which eventually led to law (clubbed with my very menial academic scores).
Studying for an examination and/or interviews has never been a strong suit of mine, so cracking anything in the first instance was out of the question – which is why, I liked the concept of doing something with ‘practice’ – I played cricket when I was in school and university (under-graduation and graduation), so I know the impact of practising before a game. I think of law the same way, where a Courtroom is a beautiful playground where there is an interpretation of something in black and white against the backdrop of the kind of businesses – law catches up with changing business experiences.
My philosophy for practising law is based on everyday practice and reading – there is no escaping hard work and long hours, no matter which generation relays this out – there is no denying that there needs to be a balance between work and life, but there will be many instances where work will take away many vacations and time away from life and family, so choose well.
Your academic credentials include a Master’s degree in Competition Law from Queen Mary University of London. How has this international education influenced your practice, and what value do you think global exposure brings to a lawyer’s career?
Interestingly, many seniors I spoke to during my law school days and the first two years of my practice, said a master’s degree in law was completely unnecessary to practice in Indian Courts. But 2 years into practice, I got so engrossed in work, with long hours and no breaks, and that was when I had a moment of realization that led me to think – I like working and the long hours, but the longer I stretch this out, the harder it will be to come out and become a full-time student with a lot of time on my hands.
I then decided to maybe take a couple of years when I could (luckily with no financial and other obligations), to study something I wanted and also, see a part of the world, meet different people across the world, understand different cultures, learn different business models, firm models etc. To this day, I value and cherish my period in London and the connections I made then.
I think a master’s degree abroad is good and valuable when you have a specific goal in mind – I wanted to study Competition Law (from an EU and UK perspective) and understand how the Magic / Silver Circle law firms work, how the ‘Chamber’ model works in the UK. Plus, I like driving and travelling, so there was no better place than the UK for me (even considering the cost, since it is significantly cheaper than the US).
You have a rich background in various areas of law, including Competition and Antitrust, Corporate and Commercial laws, Taxation etc. Could you share how you developed such a diverse expertise, and what drew you to specialize in these specific fields?
Antitrust was and continues to be my first love, I fell in love with it in law school because there is a very balanced economic approach to it. Unfortunately, I do not practice it as much as I would like, but I do keep up with its evolution.
The other intriguing area that is coming up and that has excited me for a while is data protection – especially, with the current growth of AI – it will be very fascinating to bring out a fine line between right and wrong, in this technologically advanced society.
Tax for me is a much-liked inheritance – having started with despising the area because of its complexities, my growth in law has been because of tax matters. I have over time, grown into and loved tax, with these same complexities it creates.
I think coming to like a subject/area in law, is intensely personal. I know lots of friends, who love doing original civil and criminal work since it gives them a different kind of joy – muddled in facts and evidence, interpretation of a different area of law and procedure daily etc. – different Courts of practice (original, appellate, quasi-judicial), city of practice etc. also make for a decision.
But if I were to specialise in a certain area, I’d give myself a good 5 years, before I can even begin to think that I have a hold on the subject.
Your firm, Shivadass & Shivadass (Law Chambers), is known for its work in Litigation (taxation, commercial etc.), Corporate Law etc. How do you approach building a specialized practice in these areas, and what advice would you give to young lawyers aspiring to excel in these fields?
Building a practice is convoluted. Some factors are beyond control (time, place, resources etc.), but quality of work and staying updated with the law is always within one’s control. Sometimes, a pragmatic approach towards the question of law and the transaction goes a long way in assisting both the Client and the Court.
I’ve also noticed that knowledge sharing by way of writing articles, and books, helps dissipate your point of view of a certain area or provision of law. This also gives people a chance to gauge their understanding of law and personality.
Unfortunately, building a practice takes a long time. But should lawyers choose to build a core practice, my advice would be to let your growth in that area be ‘organic’ – it will be more credible that way. Avoid instant marketing and instant gratification, because as a field, instant gratification in law tends to break you more than you would think.
Having worked with top law firms and the office of the Solicitor General of India, how did these experiences shape your perspective on the practice of law, and what key learnings have you carried forward into your own firm? Please share your experience.
For this question, I will consider my experience from both my internship and practice perspective – be it firms, companies or chambers (including the SG’s office).
You garner different perspectives of law when you either intern or work. Big law has never fascinated me much, but I’ve always wanted to learn how big law functions – administratively i.e., marketing, practice area development, quality of work and output, deadlines, team structure, management structure etc., as opposed to a chamber practice, where your quality is determined by your legal prowess and how you present the case before a Court – the marketing here, is your presentation and skills before a Court, which spreads more by way of word of mouth, often the older marketing tactic.
Having become a lawyer and spent nearly 12 years so far, I have now come to terms with what areas I want to specialise in and how I want to take this forward. Therefore, while driving this ethos for our ‘boutique firm’, I draw a fine balance between a law firm model and a chamber model. It’s been a great learning and there is so much more to learn – but I don’t shy away from making mistakes because, for me, mistakes are the only way to test your ideas.
As a trained Carnatic classical singer and a state-level cricket player, how do you balance your demanding legal career with your hobbies, and do you believe these interests contribute to your professional success?
I honestly wish I’d kept up with my singing and/or my cricketing abilities – to date, I feel I’ve spent more time on work and law than my hobbies, which is not a good sign. Frankly, having a passion/hobby outside of law is of real benefit.
While people do say that work is passion etc., I must admit, there are situations in my very small career, where reading books, musical therapy (be it in the form of listening to new music styles or immersing yourself in age-old classics) or catching a small practice game or tapping a few balls in the nets, helps clear your mind off negative energy, which tends to be a lot more in this industry.
We get stuck with trying to achieve a great deal, too soon, that we fail to realise that life as a lawyer is a test match (that ends on day 5 at 4.30 PM) and not a t-20 that ends in 3 hours. Teamwork and building a team (any team), is the fulcrum of any sport.
Music, on the other hand, brings out the creative energy and strength in a person, which helps in clear thinking and concentration. I often ignite my spiritual side with a little of MS Subbulakshmi and some Carnatic music daily, which then moves to some Indie-rock, classic rock etc. It also gives you a sense of calm in toxic situations and keeps your emotions in check.
This has helped me in various ways to keep that balance and I genuinely encourage everyone, not just lawyers, to have these hobbies (and just think of them as hobbies and not ‘side hustles’). This keeps you grounded.
With your extensive experience, what do you consider to be the most important skills or qualities that a lawyer should develop to succeed in litigation?
By default, every lawyer has to read – there is no escaping. You may have a team either giving their comments on an agreement or briefing you on a matter (post discussions with Clients) – but unless you pick up the draft or file to read and make your notes, it will never survive the quality you want to achieve and build a name for yourself. We have to read for life, so the sooner this realisation hits, the better. We must strive to constantly read, and there is enough for everyone who wishes to absorb. Reading also makes your life easy when drafting, presenting a case before Court or simply, comprehending a bulky file in a time-efficient manner.
The second skill is to use simple but effective words and learn the art of presentation and speaking. A lawyer should never have visible ‘stage fright’ – you may be shaking with fear within, but strong oratory skills and clarity of thought, take you a long way.
The third and rather important skill is to treat ‘time’ as a dear friend –‘time’ can make or break you. Usage of time effectively and efficiently is an art in itself and respecting time is another. We cannot strive to have a silk gown within 10 years of being an advocate and yet, not use 24 hours effectively and efficiently.
I take whatever pending work I have to Court, for instance – while waiting for a matter, I read up on new cases, correct opinions and other drafts and/or, watch proceedings and note down similar cases that are being argued, which can be used as a precedent for some of my cases. I trust the process and patiently wait for my time to shine, while choosing all along, to keep putting my head down and working.
You’ve been involved with a wide variety of matters across different forums / Courts. How do you navigate complexities of different matters across these forums?
A few years ago, I was in Court as part of a batch matter and the leading Senior Advocate on the matter was sitting beside me. Out of curiosity, I asked him, ‘Sir, do you think the matter will end today?’. He smiled, looked at me and said ‘Just remember, every matter has its fate and destiny’. I’ve come to realise that line today when on certain days, the Bench is with you and then flips completely the very next day. There are also situations, where you may be close to a disposal of a matter, but the matter never reaches and is not picked up for the next 6 – 8 months.
Amongst other things, which is reading the file (concrete factual aspects, the law and the application of law to facts), making your notes etc., some other things we keep in mind is the language of the Judge i.e., the Judge’s view on an area or subject of law, their insistence on procedure, decorum in Court, manner of presentation, grip and handle on the subject, etc.
We don’t realise it often, but Judges today are under the immense pressure of workload – it is never an easy task being a Judge; social media only brings out one side of it but there is a side that only arguing counsels know – on an average day, each Judge (of whatever position), works at least 16 – 18 hours. It is sometimes inhumane but that is the reality. If you keep this in mind, you know how to navigate in a Court viz., your facts, arguments and the law. Being always prepared is never a bad thing – 5 minutes is enough to turn a case around and get a positive order from the Courts.
Given your extensive experience, what advice would you offer to young legal professionals aspiring to become litigating lawyers?
I know this will be hard for many to read – but give litigation a chance. I do understand that the hard work and long hours with menial pay are not as attractive as the fancy pay and lifestyle of big law or a corporate law firm – but if one can push themselves, there isn’t a place to be at, other than a Court. The money, name/fame, and adoration, that you receive from Judges, peers etc., is unmatched.
The second is to never take a file/matter, lightly – even if it is just for an adjournment/Passover or the fact that it is ‘just a matter at consumer court’ or ‘just a civil court hearing’. Every matter, of whatever nature, is absolutely important to your credibility as a litigator.
Third – find a mentor; a mentor who is willing to take risks with you, a mentor who not only guides you but allows you to fail and learn, a mentor who gives you opportunities. Unfortunately, such mentors may not be in a position to pay you much – but, when you have such opportunities, you can create your own brand, perhaps even get some of your cases to cover up the balance in terms of pay.
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