Super Lawyer

Tag: Herbert Smith

  • “Find what genuinely interests you. Embrace unconventional paths, don’t succumb to peer pressure. Networking is key – reach out, introduce yourself, and grow.” – Aritra Chatterjee, Manager at Herbert Smith Freehills, U.K

    “Find what genuinely interests you. Embrace unconventional paths, don’t succumb to peer pressure. Networking is key – reach out, introduce yourself, and grow.” – Aritra Chatterjee, Manager at Herbert Smith Freehills, U.K

    This interview has been published by Namrata Singh and The SuperLawyer Team

    You have worked in different places including Hong Kong, Singapore, Tokyo and Belfast. Could you share some insights into the challenges or struggles you faced along the way, and how these experiences have contributed to your personal and professional growth?

    Every jurisdiction has its unique challenges and a different regulatory landscape. There are also differences in market practices and work culture. However, exposure to such differences helps you become a better lawyer and allows you to think outside the box and bring a global perspective to help your clients. On the personal front, I don’t see it as a journey filled with struggles; on the contrary, it has been quite exciting and fun. Yes, you do miss your family, friends, and the familiarity of the place you are from, but I have been lucky to find excellent friends, colleagues, and mentors along the way. I love experiencing new places and cultures, so I have tried to make the most of it.

    You’re managing a team delivering outsourcing and transaction management solutions in your current role at Herbert Smith Freehills, ALT Finance. What unique challenges and rewards come with overseeing a team working on such diverse projects?

    I enjoy the different hats I need to wear. In addition to core legal skills, my role involves team, project, and stakeholder management. Every day is different; you need to continuously innovate and provide tailored solutions to clients at a large scale. I have been lucky to work with clients who are industry leaders, and I find solving problems for them very rewarding. I am also very passionate about people management, learning and growing together as a team, and celebrating each other’s success, which brings me a lot of happiness. 

    Having worked with major financial institutions like HSBC and JP Morgan Chase & Co., what are some of the key insights you’ve gained about the intersection of law and finance in the derivatives space?

    Derivatives is a complex and highly regulated practice area. To be a good derivatives lawyer, you need to understand different derivatives products and the economic outcomes that they are trying to achieve. You can’t afford to look at things only through the lens of laws and regulations and need to be aware of operational, credit, and reputational risks and limitations. My in-house stints at large investment banks were extremely helpful in improving my knowledge of different derivatives products as well as operational and other commercial aspects of the industry.

    You’ve managed large teams of lawyers and paralegals. What strategies do you employ to foster a collaborative and efficient working environment within your teams?

    There is no straitjacket formula – every individual is different. Appreciating these differences and creating a positive work environment based on trust and mutual respect is very important. Having fun as a team and celebrating little wins and each other’s success is also essential. To develop a high-performing team, a manager must empower and help teammates grow by giving them the support and space they need.

    You worked in different capacities including as an Associate Counsel as well as a Manging Consultant. What adjustments or learnings did you find most valuable when you shifted to a leadership role?

    It is an evolutionary process; there are always opportunities to lead the way, even when you are not formally in a leadership / managerial role. Effective delegation and leading by example are crucial. It is about striking a balance between acknowledging that you can’t do everything on your own and knowing that there are certain things that you must learn to do well yourself before delegating to others. 

    As a derivatives lawyer with a keen interest in legal technology, what advancements in legal tech do you find most promising for the future of transactional law?

    No prizes for guessing – AI is the obvious one. However, it is essential to differentiate between tech solutions that add genuine value and solve complex problems from solutions that are more bells and whistles. AI has radically changed how large-scale projects are managed and delivered in the last few years.

    The industry will generally see an increase in the adoption of tech platforms for streamlining document negotiations.

    I am looking forward to seeing the next leap in generative AI solutions. Currently, the technology is prompt engineering dependent, and there are concerns about accuracy and reliability. These issues will be ironed out pretty soon, and the technology’s ability to learn from and understand us will increase manifold.

    You’ve held diverse roles in different geographical locations. How have you navigated the cultural nuances in these regions, and do you believe that understanding cultural differences is essential for success in the legal profession, especially in the derivatives and finance sectors?

    Absolutely – at the end of the day, we are in a people-centric profession. Keeping an open mind as well as appreciating and respecting differences go a long way. I have come to realize that the world is smaller than we think it is and navigating cultural nuances or differences is not difficult as long as you keep an open mind. It is also important to appreciate cultural similarities instead of focusing on just the differences!

    Having worked across various international offices, is there a particular country that holds a special place in your heart, both professionally and personally? How has your experience in that country influenced your approach to law and life?

    Tough question. It would be impossible to single out any place. As mentioned, I have been lucky to find excellent friends, colleagues, and mentors wherever I have worked. The person I am is a culmination of my different experiences. I have learned a lot from and felt welcome everywhere.

    With your passion for quizzing, how do you balance your high-stakes legal career with your interests outside of work? Any favorite trivia or quiz moment you’d like to share?

    It is really important to have a passion or a hobby outside of work – especially for one’s mental health. Your work can get quite taxing and stressful, so it is nice to have something to look forward to outside of work. Quizzing was quite a sidelined activity when I was in law school. I and a few friends started the Quiz Club at our university (RMLNLU, Lucknow). Work does get in the way of quizzing, and I don’t get to participate or conduct as many quizzes as I would like, but I try to whenever possible.

    During the pandemic, when there were no live quizzes for obvious reasons so I started a quiz podcast with a friend. We made ten episodes on diverse topics. We were pretty surprised with how well it did on platforms like Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and we had a lot of fun in the process, and it kept us going when we were trying to cope with the lockdown.

    You’ve had international stints in various countries. How do you perceive the differences in legal education between India and abroad, and what insights can you share for someone considering pursuing an LLM in India or abroad?

    I might not be the best person to answer this because I did not study law abroad. Back in law school, there were not enough courses if one wanted to be a transactional lawyer, and interaction with experts from the industry was limited. Now, that has changed significantly. Law schools do get experts from the industry frequently and offer specialised seminar courses. Private players like LawSikho have done a great job in making practical legal education accessible.

    Based on my interaction with my colleagues and law students abroad, I think firms are more proactive in reaching out and connecting with students. The process for vacation schemes and training contracts is much more efficient, accessible, and consistent across firms.

    In India, the industry can do much more to make itself accessible to law students.

    Given your successful career trajectory, what advice would you offer to the current generation aspiring to excel in the field of law, especially those interested in derivatives and legal technology?

    I am not very good at giving advice. My career path has not been very traditional. It is crucial to find out what genuinely interests you. If you are not lucky enough to do what you love, see if you can love what you do. Don’t succumb to peer pressure and take up something because everyone else is doing it.

    For someone who wants to pursue a career as a derivatives lawyer, a good understanding of the financial ecosystem and macroeconomics can definitely help.

    The legal tech landscape is evolving rapidly and has a lot of exciting career opportunities. I think developing an acumen for technology to understand how it works is important. The best way of doing it is learning how to code. You can start by playing around with low code / no code platforms and move on to learning coding. There are excellent resources all over the internet. 

    It is also vital to learn how to network effectively. Don’t be shy in reaching out to people and introducing yourself!

    Get in touch with Aritra Chatterjee-

  • Poornima Hatti, Partner-Dispute Resolution, Samvad Partners, on studying in London, her association with the UN, and editing her book

    Poornima Hatti, Partner-Dispute Resolution, Samvad Partners, on studying in London, her association with the UN, and editing her book

    Poornima Hatti graduated from NLSIU, Bangalore, in 2003. She then went on to pursue her Masters in 2005 from London School of Economics. Her repertoire includes associations with the likes of Amarchand Mangaldas and Herbert Smith. She is currently Partner-Dispute Resolution at Samvad Partners. Poornima also has strong expertise as an anti harassment professional particularly in relation to anti sexual harassment issues at the workplace. She sits as an external independent professional on a number of enquiry committees. She is also a trained mediator. She works with various public interest organisations particularly on matters of urban planning and growth on a pro bono basis.

    In this interview we speak to her about:

    • Her time at NLSIU
    • Her experience at Tier-I firms
    • Her pro bono work

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    I would like to believe I am a thinking lawyer who believes that law can bring about change. My practice lies in dispute resolution and in related advisory.

     

    Why did you choose to pursue a degree in law?

    My parents are lawyers, so black robes and AIR manuals were not alien to me. I was therefore extremely aware of law as a profession and the wide ranging work that could be done as a lawyer. Looking back, in 1997, a lot of my peers were also very excited about the prospect of learning law at the National Law School (NLSIU). As I learned more about the institution and the people involved in the new “legal experiment”, I was very interested in getting admission at NLSIU. If I had not gotten through to NLSIU perhaps I would have looked at becoming a doctor.

     

    Give us a brief overview of your life at NLSIU.

    I enjoyed all aspects of my time spent at the NLSIU. I can truly say that I met some amazing and very intelligent people, both in terms of students and faculty, many of whom are now lifelong friends. The institution taught me to write and to think independently and shaped my political and ideological beliefs. For the first time I understood what dissent was and how dissent should be respected. It gave me the confidence to believe in myself and truly allowed me to explore the myriad opportunities a young law student has within her reach.

    I am not sure whether there is a “NLU culture”. Institutions are often shaped by the people who lead them. I know that there are non NLU universities in India where very interesting courses that are being taught and where the environment is truly conducive for a holistic legal education. Every institution should do all it can to be true to its own idea of why it came to be.

     

    What are the subjects that you took particular interest in, during your law school days?

    I was interested in the humanities, particularly in political science. Constitutional law was also very exciting and this led me to look more closely at constitution theory at the London School of Economics where I studied later. I even came back and taught it at NLSIU as a seminar course. At times the subject itself may be appealing and at other times the people who teach a subject can make you very interested in it! I was clear that criminal law was not for me! I was always clear that I would be a disputes lawyer, courts were always more inviting to me. Even today it is difficult to predict how events can unfold in Court, you may be hoping for a dull day, only to be surprised later.

     

    What activities, both academic and non-academic that you engaged in as a law student?

    In a fairly small group of students in a university, you can try your hand at most things and I did! I was not very good at sports and even broke my ankle trying to high jump in my first year, but still won a medal. I did debate, quiz and participated in a number of student bar association activities, primarily the legal services clinic. I was also elected as president of the student bar association in my fourth year and I learnt many things about working with people in this role. I was late to the mooting scene and only did so in my fifth year and participated in the Bar Council Moot and the International Maritime Arbitration Moot in Brisbane.

    I cannot stress how important it is to be involved in non academic activities at your institutions. These activities allow you to engage with your own peers in different contexts and allow you to build skills which will stand you in good stead in whatever path you choose later. You will learn to engage with the “real world” in many ways.

    Even as partners, we do work with Chambers of Commerce and other institutions that interest us or that we are passionate about. I would love for mediation to be used more actively and so I am part of the Centre for Advanced Mediation Practice here in Bangalore.

     

    What kind of internships did you engage in during your student years?

    Almost all my internships were connected with dispute resolution as an area of practice. I interned with non governmental organisations who were involved in litigation, like the Environment Support Group and Human Rights Law Network. I later interned with the National Human Rights Commission, with the then Attorney General’s office and finally clerked with a Supreme Court judge. Each internship taught me valuable skills and perspectives. It also gave me the opportunity to meet with some wonderful people. Looking back, each person I worked with taught me something new in terms of working with people, approaching clients or looking at a solution for a problem. I would say choose your internships carefully and work hard. There is someone always watching.

     

    Would you say higher studies are absolutely essential for a career in law?

    No, an LLM is not essential for a practising lawyer. However, it does give you perspective on theory and practice and it gave me, a more rounded view of the world. During my time in London, I also did some mini pupillages at a few Barristers’ Chambers and this gave me an insight into the working of the law outside of India.

    Which is the ideal time to do an L.L.M?

    I would strongly recommend working for a few years. Personally, I appreciated the class room better, made better use of my time as a student both academically and in terms of peer interaction, as I had learned to value my personal time. One also approaches law differently, after one has seen it being practised. You want to solve a problem, and you think out of the box.

     

    What are your areas of specialisation in law?

    I have always been a disputes lawyer. Today I am a commercial disputes lawyers, although we do undertake a few pro bono matters which are public law matters. As a disputes lawyer, other than the procedural laws that are essential, one learns to look at various issues in the context of different disputes. It could be a projects/infrastructure dispute or a complex shareholders disputes or an intellectual property dispute, most practising dispute lawyers handle all kinds of disputes. Of course there are specialist IP disputes lawyers and maritime lawyers but most disputes lawyers work across the spectrum.

    Every dispute teaches me something new.  My advice to law students would be not to specialise too early. Try and get adequate exposure to as many types of law as possible and then you can choose to specialise. A well rounded lawyer can also be prepared for issues that may arise across practice areas and may not be pigeon holed one way or another.

     

    How were the first few years after your graduation?

    I was fortunate enough to not be surprised by law in terms of the substantive aspects of law when I started working. The practise of the law is a completely different thing, one needs to understand client expectations, time management and one needs to learn a whole lot of people skills along with substantive law. A lot of this is not taught at law school and often internships do not offer real responsibility in terms of communication with all parties involved. As you grow senior, you will realise that people skills will stand you in good stead. Often clients tell me, that they chose to work with people they like and not always because they are fantastic lawyers. To be fair, law schools cannot prepare you for the real world practice, that is where the first few years are important. Young lawyers need to understand where and how they can be trained with rigour and opt for those places to work.

     

    Give us some insights on the qualities that Tier-I firms look for in prospective candidates.

    I think the focus should be for young lawyers to work with good people and where they can be busy. If you wish to work on diverse areas of law or a particular kind of law, then choose accordingly. Importantly, there should be an opportunity to learn and think. In terms of what does a law firm look for in a prospective candidate, I think any good law firm, even we at Samvad, look for a good work ethic and enthusiasm. There is nothing more refreshing than a young lawyer thinking ahead of his senior and adding value to the case at hand. These are things that can be seen in the context of an internship, so again, young lawyers should make the most of their internships.  I have seen this at Amarchand, at Herbert Smith LLP (as it then was) and here at Samvad.

     

    Tell us about your association with the UN.

    (Poornima has worked with the Executive Board of UN women where she has worked on equal pay and other women’s rights issues across the South East Asia region.)

    I was part of the Executive Committee at UNIFEM (now UN Women) in Singapore. As Singapore is a high income country, the group worked on issues relating to women across South East Asia, which included raising awareness of the UN Convention for Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW), working with local non governmental organisations on issues of violence against women, be it in Indonesia or Cambodia. We also focused on ensuring that domestic help/maids employed in Singapore would get a day off during their work week and ensuring that payments were made properly. We even worked on a shadow committee report for the UN as part of Singapore’s CEDAW obligations. UN Women was and is a vibrant and active space where I learnt a lot about women’s right in practice and the tough role that one has to play to achieve them.

     

    Tell us about your role at Samvad Partners.

    While the partnership at Samvad Partners continues to grow, it is still quite close knit and very collegial. While I am primarily based out of Bangalore, as part of my disputes role, I work across offices be in Chennai, Hyderabad, Mumbai or Delhi to ensure that if there is something that needs to be addressed on the dispute resolution front, it is effectively addressed. The average day includes client work (be it meetings, attending hearings, building and strengthening relationships with clients) as well a fair share of administrative work, which could be resolving HR issues, putting new systems in place or just figuring out if we need revamped stationary. It is exciting to be part of  a relatively young and diverse group of partners and to shape strategy and growth of a legal practice together.

     

    How important are grades, in your opinion?

    Call me old fashioned, but I think grades are important. If someone has consistent good grades, it demonstrates a certain level of hard work and knowledge of the law. On the contrary, if there are students with consistent low grades, it would be difficult to explain why that is the case. I believe that Indian legal education has taken a great leap forward in the past decade. There are more people interested in teaching the law and different types of subjects are being taught. The fact that there are so many young people interested in learning the law is itself a pointer that things are moving ahead. I am optimistic about the future.

     

    Tell us a little about the book that you are currently co-editing, on role modelling and mentoring at the workplace.

    A lot of us have often wondered about the lack of positive and focused mentoring in the legal profession, be it at the Bar, at law firms or at law schools. This led to a wider quest and the book was shaped by that. Interestingly, it’s not a law book, although my co-editor Shruti Vidyasagar and I are both lawyers. The book is part of a larger series on leadership at the workplace and is to be published by Palgrave McMillan and should hit the stands by next year.

     

    What is your message to our readers?

    There is no substitute for hard work and enthusiasm. Do both. Read and keep abreast of everything happening around you. Look beyond the law, too often as lawyers we do not look or make friends outside the law, we must. It keeps us balanced and makes us more relevant. You should want to get out of bed and get to work everyday, else its time to rethink what you want to do.

    Many thanks for giving me the opportunity.

  • Avirup Nag, Partner, IndusLaw, on working with Trilegal and Herbert Smith, and his experience

    Avirup Nag, Partner, IndusLaw, on working with Trilegal and Herbert Smith, and his experience

    Avirup graduated from NLSIU, Bangalore, in 2005. He then went on to receive his Master’s degree under the European Union Erasmus Mundus programme, from University of Hamburg and University of Vienna. Avirup is currently is a Partner at IndusLaw. He is part of IndusLaw’s Energy, Infrastructure and Natural Resources practice, and specialising in power, roads, railways and PPA. He has more than twelve years’ experience in the field of energy and infrastructure advisory, and he regularly advises various Indian and overseas IPPs/project developers on a range of issues relating to development of renewable energy projects, including in relation to development contracts, off-take arrangements, regulatory issues. He regularly acts for financial and strategic investors on energy/infrastructure M&A transactions involving purchase or sale of infrastructure and energy assets (including large portfolio deals, single-asset deals and joint ventures), particularly in the renewables sector.

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • His time at NLSIU
    • His experience at Tier I firms
    • Being Partner at IndusLaw

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    Well, I am Avirup, father of a three year old daughter, and a commercial lawyer specialising in Energy and Infrastructure. I live and work in Delhi, and am a big Manchester United fan. I think that enough to go on for now.

     

    Why did you choose to pursue a degree in law, amidst the many options that you had after school?

    Honestly, I chose law because of my inability to handle mathematics – I was studying economics and I was bored with all the mathematical models you are required to create to explain any theory in economics. Also, the concept of being a deal maker always fascinated me (although when I left school I didn’t have much idea of what a deal maker is supposed to do – other than wear fancy suits and sit in fancy conference rooms!), and I thought my ineptitude at math will came in the way of going to a B-school after my undergrad degree in economics – so I chose to go to law school instead. I felt that lawyers are deal facilitators and are intrinsically involved in shaping commercial deals, but to tell the truth I didn’t have much idea about what to expect from law school.

    I think one of the problems with the Indian education system is that they make you take the hardest decisions about your life at the time when you have no experience with the outside world.

     

    Give us a brief overview of your life at NLSIU.

    Honestly, I have kind of forgotten what the day to day life in NLS was like other than the fact that the food was nothing to write home about – I graduated almost twelve years ago!

    However, NLS is a truly amazing institution which lets you discover your strengths and weaknesses. What really comes to my mind when thinking of NLS is “competitive” – the place makes you really competitive and pushes you to challenge yourself, which I think kind of prepares you for the world outside. Also, what I really liked about NLS was the fact that some of the professors (but not all) there really taught you to question things which one would otherwise take as obvious – this really helps when you have to look at structures/proposals and analyse them, it helps you question things others consider ‘standard’ or ‘market’.  The academic schedule at NLS was quite intense and consisted of four courses a trimester which involve four hours of classes every day. The trimester was divided into phases where you either study for your exams (mid-term and final!) and writing research papers that are mandatory for every course, and this kind of keeps you on your toes and teaches you a lot about time management and delivering under pressure.

     

    What kind of internships did you engage in during your student years which you feel were invaluable to you in reaching your current position?

    Other than two mandatory litigation internships, all my internships were with commercial law firms – I was clear from my third year onwards that I wanted to be a commercial lawyer and not a litigator. I did couple of internships with Trilegal (where I got a PPO).  During my first internship at Trilegal I worked on some aspects of the then new electricity act which really interested me, so after that I did internships with firms with good infra and energy teams and tried working more with the folks working in those fields. So, in a nutshell I kind of chose a specialization really early and tried to get more practical experiences of that field during my internships – this was important since infrastructure and energy laws are not something which were offered as a concentration at NLS.

     

    Are LL.Ms absolutely necessary for a career in law?

    No, I don’t think an LL.M degree is absolutely necessary for a career in law (unless of course you are taking about a career in legal academics, in which case yes!). While recruiting I really don’t care if you have a LLM or not. My hiring decision will be not made on the basis of the LL.M but on the basis of the LL.B, your aptitude and attitude and your relevant work experience.  

    However, having said that I believe if one wishes pursue a specialisation in some fields of law (like tax, maritime law etc.) or understand the specific technical nuances behind why certain things are structured certain way (such as long term contracts/concessions etc.), lawyers can use the LL.M. to deepen an existing specialization or develop a new one, particularly when their first law school didn’t offer that concentration.  

     

    Which is the ideal time to do an LL.M?

    I would say the right time to do an LL.M is when you have worked for couple of years, and know that specialisation you want to pursue or which areas of law really interests you. To me, an LL.M is about enhancing your knowledge about a specialised field and increasing your exposure to the world – so you are better off doing it when you are got some practical experience of that field and know what you want from that one year.

     

    What does it take to make the cut and land a Tier-I job?

    (Avirup had previously worked with Trilegal, New Delhi, one of the most sought after firms for placements by students, as a Counsel.)

    When I joined Trilegal it was a firm experiencing a steep growth trajectory and it was exciting to be part of that – honestly I didn’t have an interview or go through any formal process while joining Trilegal. I had done couple of internships there and got a PPO from them.

    I think what it takes to make the cut and land a Tier-I law firm job (or any job for that matter) is demonstrating or signalling to the firm or the interviewer that you really want it, and most importantly convey to the firm that once in you will be willing to put in the hard work and that your ambition matches that of the firms’.  Be clear on why you want to join a particular firm and show confidence in your ability.

    Personally I don’t have any fixed criteria for assessing a newly qualified candidate – of course for a senior level hire relevant experience becomes key. For NQ hires, what I look for in a candidate is whether he/she feels bad if their work is criticised and take that criticism to improve the next piece of work they give me. Also, I put a premium of how confident they are in defending their work and do they take pride in the piece of work they hand over to me.

     

    What is the level importance given to a student’s Grade Point Average with respect to recruitment at Tier-I firms?

    CGPA is important, but it is not the be all and end all. CGPA serves as an indication of the capability of the candidate (not always accurately – for example a candidate may have a good CGPA because of good grades in social sciences but may not have done that well in commercial law subjects), but equally important is the sense of confidence, ambition and the commitment to put in the hard work to back that ambition. Also, commercial law firms look for candidates who have a genuine interest in how businesses work and how this may affect the clients the candidate will be working with – this will become more and more important as the clients become more sophisticated and start demanding that their lawyers understand their businesses in order to provide more tailored solutions.

     

    How do you say interns should go about their work at a firm like Trilegal, so as to get noticed in a positive way in the limited time they have?

    As I said earlier, you cannot repeat mistakes and you need to use all feedback and criticism to improve your next piece of work during an internship. Be prepared to defend your and most importantly each piece of work you hand over to your senior should be the best you can do.  Also, you need to show the commitment – be in office on time, don’t leave without completing your work and respect deadlines.

    Also, I have noticed that most interns complain that they don’t get to work with partners – in a big firm you will hardly get that opportunity – remember that the SA/associate you are working with has much more practical experience than you and you can learn a lot from them. If you are good, they will recommend you to the partners. Most firms usually rely on the feed-back received from SA/associates in giving PPOs to interns.

     

    What was the reason for your transition from Trilegal to Herbert Smith Freehills LLP (London)?

    After completing my masters I applied to various law firms in London, and was accepted by a few including Herbert Smith. At that time international law firms were recruiting a lot of Indian lawyers in the hope that Indian market will be opening up for them soon – I felt it was a great opportunity to get some international experience under my belt and may be come back to India as part of an international firm when the market open.

    I think Trilegal is the closest you can get to an international firm in India – it is very professionally run and they believe in doing first class business in a first class manner. So the bedding-in at Herbies from a work culture perspective wasn’t a big challenge. However, the focus at all major international law firms is on specialisation and the business understanding of the partners about their clients’ business is tremendous – they encourage you to become a legal-commercial advisor as opposed to limiting yourself to a pure legal advisory role. Also, the support system (in the form of knowledge management/precedent banks etc.) that fee earners have is far ahead of what we have in India – even in a place like Trilegal which is very forward looking in these areas.

     

    Why did you then choose to come back to India?

    I chose to come back to India because the action was shifting to India (and other emerging markets). Because of the way Indian firms are structured and their size (as compared to firms like Herbert Smith), in India you tend to get thrown in to the deep end much quicker than you would be in a foreign firm – I thought I was missing all the excitement in India. Also, it was evident that the India legal market wasn’t going to open up anytime soon, and it was a time for me to make a decision about whether I wanted to stay for the medium-long term in London or come back to India – I chose India because of the sheer volume of deals happening in India.

     

    What was the rationale behind moving to a smaller firm (HSA Advocates)?

    I felt I was beginning to get typecasted in Trilegal as a regulatory-advisory lawyer and I wasn’t doing as many deals I would have liked – especially on the Energy M&A side of things. The fact was that there were quite a few other M&A partners at Trilegal who were looking to specialise in M&A deals in Energy/Infrastructure sectors and therefore building a niche for myself as an Energy/Infrastructure and Energy/Infrastructure M&A specialist at Trilegal may have been difficult.

    HSA, though smaller than Trilegal, was doing a fair bit of transactional work in the Energy & Infrastructure space and was a leading name in the Energy & Infrastructure space, and I joined them with an understanding that I will continue doing transactional work in the Energy & Infrastructure work and also try and build up my M&A practice focused on the Energy & Infrastructure space leveraging my regulatory and transactional experience in the Energy & Infrastructure space- thankfully, I was able to do that and today 60-70% of the work that my team handles is related to M&A/JVs in the Energy & Infrastructure space – the rest being regulatory and transactional work in the Energy & Infrastructure space.

     

    Tell us about your current work profile as Partner at IndusLaw.

    My practice focuses on all commercial law aspects of Energy & Infrastructure, and we advise various Indian and overseas project developers on a range of issues relating to development of energy and infrastructure projects, including in relation to development contracts, off-take arrangements, regulatory issues. We also act for financial and strategic investors on energy/infrastructure M&A deals particularly in relation to structured acquisition of infrastructure and energy assets (including large portfolio deals, single-asset deals and joint ventures). However we have been so busy in the renewable energy field that I keep joking that our practice is 100% renewables, 80% infrastructure, and the rest regulatory advisory.

    There is no regular day and each day is different – this is the charm of being a commercial lawyer and the drawback too since you can never plan your day. I show up knowing what I am going to be working on that day but them something comes out of the left side of the field and derails all my plans and I end up fire-fighting the rest of the day.

    On a good day, I typically work on maybe three to four different matters and on a bad day, I feel like I am jumping from one foot to the next, and maybe work on seven to eight different matters – typical tasks includes reviewing drafts, con-calls, attending negotiations, responding to email, setting-up business development meetings, sending out pitches for new work etc. etc.

    Having had experience working at a Tier-I firm as well as a Tier-II firm, which of these would you recommend for a fresh recruit who’s aspiring to obtain a placement right out of law school?

    Both have their pros and cons – I would suggest that as a newly qualified lawyer the best place to begin one’s  career is a firm experiencing a steep growth trajectory and which is professionally run. In a place like that a newly qualified lawyer will get the maximum exposure to varied and good quality work, and will be able to choose a specialisation. Also, since the firm is growing fast, the money will probably also be good – which is important too no doubts.

     

    Where do you see yourself ten years from now?

    I am not one for making long term plans. But hopefully ten years on I will still be advising companies in doing deals the energy and infrastructure space – basically keep doing what I love and be a better lawyer thanks to ten more years of experience. Ten years hence if I am in a position to advice governments /regulatory bodies and able to shape some of the policies governing the energy and infrastructure sectors I think that will be the icing on the cake. Also, I won’t mind being able to buy an Aston Martin in ten years.

     

    What would your parting words be for our readers?

    If anyone reading this wants to become a commercial lawyer I would advise them to develop a genuine interest in and understand how businesses work, choose some sectors to focus on (I believe even in India the days of a generalist lawyer is limited), and keep updated will developments (legal and business related) which may affect the clients operating in his or her chosen sectors of focus. Finally, I would say work hard and more importantly work smart.

  • Ketan Mukhija, Senior VP at SREI, on role and skill sets required to work in an in-house position

    Ketan Mukhija, Senior VP at SREI, on role and skill sets required to work in an in-house position

    Ketan Mukhija graduated from NALSAR, Hyderabad in the year 2007. He has worked in foreign law firms like Jones Day and Herbert Smith. Thereafter, he returned to India and worked with two Indian law firms at responsible positions. At present, he works as the Senior Vice President (Legal) of SREI Infrastructure Finance Limited, one of the largest infrastructure financing firms in India.

    In this interview Ketan talks about:

    • His career trajectory from working in US & UK and then to India
    • Working in an in-house position as a career option for young lawyers
    • Structure of an in-house legal team in a large company
    • Role of an in-house counsel
    • Skillsets required to work in an in-house position

    Click here to read our earlier interview with Ketan.

    Please share with us your journey so far.

    It is has been a fascinating journey so far.

    After graduating from NALSAR, I started working in the western hemisphere and slowly and gradually, moved towards the eastern. I commenced my career with a firm called Jones Day which is an International Law Firm (ILF) based out of the United States, and has multiple offices across the world. I was working as part of the Merger & Acquisitions and Strategic Alliances team there. Thereafter I moved to Herbert Smith Freehills (HSF) in London. I got a dual qualification to practice as a solicitor in England & Wales within the United Kingdom.

    At HSF, I was working with Equity Capital Market Division, and got an excellent opportunity to work on big transactions. I was involved in the acquisition deal of Land Rover and Jaguar by Tata, which was a tremendous experience. While working for HSF, I had also advised Bradford and Bingley, which is UK’s biggest buy-to-let lender. The recession had just set in, so we represented and advised Bradford and Bingley on tracing of capital, drafting of prospectuses and related documentation.

    Thereafter, owing to personal reasons, I had to shift to New Delhi where I worked for a relatively short stint with two firms, Vaish Associates and Luthra & Luthra Law Offices in senior positions. It was a good experience because working for Indian clients was different where the work areas are generaI as far as the corporate area is concerned. In US and UK, we have very focused and super-specialized areas. In Indian firms, you pretty much pick up a generalist experience and set of transactions. Accordingly, the major areas that I worked on included corporate restructuring, PIPE transactions, private equity, banking finance and energy infrastructure. Overall, I got a good all-round experience at both firms following which I got the opportunity to work with SREI Infrastructure Finance Limited as the Sr. Vice President (Legal, Corporate Strategy and Planning).

    SREI Group is one of the largest infrastructure financing conglomerates in India, having assets worth USD3 billion approx under its management and with almost over hundred entities as sister concerns. It is a huge group which is being held and managed under the auspices of the Kanoria Foundation.

    Many young lawyers want to become in-house counsels and are opting to work as in-house counsels directly after law school. How do you see this as a career path?

    There are a few things which we have to bear in mind. There is some form of uniformity and inconsistency in terms of working in law firms. On the other hand, an in-house counsel has to be flexible according to the organization he/she wants to work with. In the M&A division or capital markets division of any other big firm, the type of work is somewhat on similar lines, depending on the transaction at hand. However, each company has a different structure. The philosophy of a company, organization, structural configuration and the hierarchy will be very different from that of a law firm. Before I shed some light on the content side or the method side, a word of advice for people who aspire to be an in-house counsel, they should do some background research on the type of company they want to work for. In the past, companies used to look for a person who had 15-25 years of experience in the same industry. However, that is changing. Young lawyers are being recruited by companies who are creating immense value and changing the traditional setup.

    It is important to note that, as an in-house counsel, you must know that your role will be more than just a legal adviser; you will be given a much-diversified responsibility which may not be strictly legal in nature. Here, the client is your financial team, commercial team and you are not catering to the entire world but ensuring that there is organic or inorganic growth within the organization, and you undertake the roles of a dispute preventor, cost controller and the right business partner in the literal sense. So, you should keep all the aforementioned points in mind before joining a company as an in-house counsel.

    If you want to generalize the structure of an in-house legal team in a  large company, how will you do that?

    With the caveat, that no two organisations have the same structure. I would like to give an example from the structure in the SREI Group. Under SREI Group, for every legal entity, there is a corporate legal and corporate compliance at each level because the regulator mandates these. A listed company needs to comply with several regulations by different regulators. There is constant interaction with Security Exchange Board of India (SEBI), which supervises all major activities of a company. If there is an acquisition or a potential change in the management of a listed company, everything has to be regularly and periodically intimated to SEBI and the stock exchange where the company is listed. Therefore, the compliance divisions ensure the conformity with the regulators and the RBI. The SREI Group is regulated by the RBI as an infrastructure finance company (IFC). So, we have a lot of interaction with the RBI on fairly regular basis. It is crucial to have a compliance division to ensure that we comply with the existing legal and regulatory framework.

    Almost all companies have a risk management team. The risk management team usually takes the form of an internal audit or a legal audit division. As a company with multiple associate/subsidiary entities, it has to ensure that the internal contractual arrangements and shareholding is managed properly, and there exists a system of checks and balances between the various entities at all levels to ensure that you are minimizing risks at every stage. So, the risk management division assumes a lot of importance.

    There is also a corporate legal at each entity level. On a daily basis, in an operative contract division, there are employment contracts, non-disclosure agreements, term sheets, securities documentation, memorandum of understanding and collaboration agreements which the corporate team needs to look at and thoroughly negotiate with the counterparties.

    A financial institution has many recovery matters, possession matters, civil matters, DRT matters, risk management, compliance, internal audit, etc, so it is important to have a robust litigation division.

    Moreover, at the group level, you have a strategy and planning team that drives and co-ordinates with all the aforementioned divisions.  It is the strategy team which drives the processes substantively across these 4-5 teams. The set up is mature in our organization but it varies with every organization, but this is typically what I have seen in Indian multinational corporations.

    What is the role of an in-house counsel in an organisation? How is it different from working in a law firm?

    The role of a general counsel is in the nature of a true business partner who works as a i) preemptive risk mitigator, ii) cost controller for legal expenses and iii) remedy agent in case there is a legal issue. A General Counsel has a role which is similar to a general physician, who would identify the issues in hand and should be able to guide the business functions in a right direction in case of any legal issues, rather than implementing every function himself/ herself.

    It is important to understand what the scope, ambit and role of an in-house counsel look like. There can be various divisions and verticals in the legal department. You have to involve yourself in the strategic decision-making process of the organization and for that, you need to know the legal risks and help streamline the processes within the organization to ensure that the key issues and the legal matters are being monitored and scrutinized. Then you have to take the strategic decisions keeping in mind the philosophy and the interests of the organization. So one of the key things is actual to be in coordination with the management of the company or the business heads of the company to ensure that all the decisions are taken by keeping in mind the legal risk that can potentially arise. You have to work on commercial transactions with external counsels and law firms to help us on an ad-hoc or retainer basis. If you have a defined skill set, you have to wear the business hat and think like a business head and try to create value at each step. It is important that as an in-house counsel, you should have the ability or skillsets required to set up the right structures to achieve a high level of operational efficiency and continuous improvement of organization and business, the methods ensuring incorporation of the best practices, creating awareness, development of functional centres of excellence and the ability to work under pressure. As an in-house counsel, you should be in a position to handle critical issues which are sensistive or confidential in nature. You have to be fully equipped, informed and in a position to handle that. So the idea is to integrate the legal advice with the business requirement and create value for the organisation. A person has to be a generalist, must have good grasping power, has to be flexible because litigation can change colors tomorrow. Working in an in-house role can be very different from working in a law firm. In a law firm, you might work on one area of law throughout your life, but the variety of work in an in-house function is extremely wide. You have to be very flexible and good to learn and grasp so that you can learn about the collaboration between the corporation office and various group companies optimizing the value of the corporate entity.

     

    What are the skills sets required to become an In-House Counsel?

    The skill sets have to be both technical and soft skills. You must have the judicious amalgam of the soft skills as well which is very much required because you will be dealing with very stringent timelines and some unexpected kind of pushbacks. When you are dealing with non-lawyers and people from other departments, you will have to be slightly more versatile and more efficiency oriented to ensure that they understand the tone of your language. It is important that you understand both their business requirement and you convey your legal provisions. This is one of the key skillsets that one must possess if they want to work in an in-house role.

    The organization will go on forever, and no person is indispensable in an organization. So it is important to standardize the procedure and processes in line with the business requirements to ensure efficiency and seamless delivery of advisory legal opinion. It is important to have standard points, or starting points or denominators or basis, wherein the position or philosophy of the company is clearly laid down. Those philosophies guide the operations and decision making over the years. So standardization and uniformization are very important.

    It is also crucial to have the ability to drive the processes, because deriving economic value and savings for the organization by bringing in the subject matter expertise and skill sets can only make meaning when you have a high level of operational efficiency.

    For example, if a company wants to embark on an M&A transaction, the law firms will be doing a set of documentation, the technical team and other teams will be doing their own due diligence and submit their report. Everybody has his or her compartmentalized job of work customized to the transaction. However, as a sole point of contact with all stakeholders, you as an in-house counsel should be able to soak all the information from everyone, give it the right shape and ensure that they mold and cast well in the framework that you want.

    You need to stay updated with the latest changes in the position of law so that you can give the best perspective advice from a commercial perspective to the top management.

    What should be the role of a legal head in case of a regulatory vacuum/ grey areas in law?

    While advising the business verticals to act on areas where there are regulatory vacuum or grey areas, a general counsel has the role to pre-empt the risk in a calculated manner and put the same before the business verticals. However, in cases where the existing legal framework is inadequate or fails to meet the current market scenario, it will be important to put forward the problem with the government agencies, either through industry bodies/ associations like ASSOCHAM or individually. Whenever a new law is proposed, generally the government provides a window period of 60-90 days during which the stakeholders can voice their concerns about the new law. It is important that the problem or concerns are clearly identified and proposed solutions are put forward in such cases. These solutions can be based on industry best practices around the world or based on ground realities or the market sentiments.

    Please give your views about the trend in the Indian companies on having a large in-house legal team.

    The trend is towards having a robust in-house function as well. The mantra of any firm is to increase their revenue and decrease the cost. I think having a robust in-house team works much better for me than hiring a law firm every now and then because that is an expensive affair. If you have a good in-house team, then the cost can be curtailed quickly and to a large extent. Because, when you talk about International Law firms, for a simple agreement they will charge you huge amounts. Now, if you have equipped lawyers who have global exposure and are good negotiators, I think they can play a role both in increasing revenue as well as cost preventers to a colossal extent. It is important to have in-house experts in finance, investment, taxation laws who can form the right opinion. One can take help of external consultants, when the volume is huge or when the work needs to be done at different locations, and it is not possible for the internal team to be present at different places. The idea should be to ensure that the person understands the business because that is where it adds value. Consultants will come as an outsider, but here you know the aspirations and expectations and can lead the best optimal advice. So I think the trend is very encouraging, fruitful and also sinks with the simple market logic. It aligns the incentives and disincentives of the promoters. So it is a market-driven kind of move.

    Is there any other aspect you would like to add on to the discussion?

    The role of a General Counsel or a Senior Corporate Counsel is also that of a behavior analyst of the corporate systems. Now there are so many rules to manage the entire litigation, rules to manage the complete compliance kind of platform, rules to administer the contracts. You have to make use of the technology, behavioral skills, core competencies, evolve right system of checks and balances within the organization, and I think that’s the requisite kind of skill sets. and I can probably end by saying that today’s evolving business scenario in the changing market, the role of a corporate counsel is very meaningful in the sense that they are becoming the true partners of the business unit and the company and, to drive the strategy towards higher growth, development, higher bottom lines and top lines. The role of a General Counsel is critical because he work at every stage with CFO, CIO, CMO, and CTO and acts as the point person for the top management. It is important that he gives the right advice to the top management which would drive the strategy for the company. In today’s scenario the role of a general counsel looks very promising.

     

  • Ujjaini Ghosh, Assistant VP-Global Transaction Banking, Deutsche Bank, on studying at Oxford, and working with Herbert Smith, and Linklaters

    Ujjaini Ghosh, Assistant VP-Global Transaction Banking, Deutsche Bank, on studying at Oxford, and working with Herbert Smith, and Linklaters

    Ujjaini Ghosh graduated from NUJS, Kolkata in 2006 and went on to pursue her BCL from Oxford. After her BCL she joined Herbert Smith, worked at Linklaters, Singapore with the banking group, and eventually graduated to Deutsche Bank in January 2013.

    In this interview we speak to her about:

    • Her time at Oxford
    • Working at Linklaters
    • Her experience with Herbert Smith

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    Well to put it in a nutshell and assuming that the readers are from NUJS, I would introduce myself as an alumnus (batch of 2006) of NUJS who spent some of her best and formative years at this institution, grew as a person, made amazing friends and now looks back fondly and maybe with a tinge of nostalgia at those years gone by.

    Post NUJS, I joined Oxford for my BCL in 2006. After completion of my BCL, I joined Herbert Smith as a trainee solicitor and qualified as an associate in the finance division. I eventually moved to Linklaters in Singapore where I worked as an associate with the banking group and in January 2013 moved to Deutsche Bank where I am currently working as a legal counsel in the global transaction banking department.

     

    Why and when did you decide to do law?

    To be honest, I decided to do law at a point where law was fast becoming a popular career option after engineering and medicine and I knew for sure that I did want to become a professional and make a difference though not necessarily in medicine or engineering! I joined NUJS after studying English honours for a year at St Xavier’s College, Calcutta.

    It was during my five years at law school that I realized that studying law was probably the best decision I could have made. NUJS was very interactive in its teaching methods and I could clearly link the knowledge of different spheres of legal education to the individual, society and corporations. More than the subject itself, it was the application of the subject that interested me.

     

    ujjaini-ghoshHow was studying at NUJS like for you?

    The question does make me feel ancient! Studying at NUJS was a very interesting and a brilliant experience, an experience that transformed my personality, made me aspire, made me ambitious and taught me to drive myself as hard as I could. The ambiance, the faculty, the students, the activities made five years literally fly by. NUJS was not just about studies but it was also about the multitudinous activities on offer. I do remember taking part in moot court competitions, cultural activities such as singing, dancing and theatre, coordinating seminars and group discussions, being part of various committees, assisting in legal aid projects and the list goes on.

    Life at NUJS ten years ago was very inspirational for the students. We were part of a fledgling institution and each one of us as students were driven by this urgent need to not only prove ourselves but also to make NUJS reach greater heights. The institution had an incredible moot court society which brought in awards with limited resources. The close knit student community made life in the hostel a lot of fun and the faculty members were not just “teachers” but friends and in some cases confidantes.

     

    What sort of internships did you do while in college?

    My internships were varied. I interned with Sanlaap (an NGO in Calcutta),  the trial court in Calcutta, Delhi High Court and law firms such as Khaitan and Amarchand & Mangaldas. I also interned with the Singapore International Arbitration Centre and Wong Partnership in Singapore. All the internships have played a defining role as these helped me understand how law worked in the practical world and also provided me with a better idea of what I wanted to do after law school. The internships were a stepping stone towards shaping my career. It’s just been seven years since law school so there is a long way to go!

     

    What was the first thought that came to you when you got your acceptance letter from Oxford?

    I was ecstatic and actually cried with joy! The experience was brilliant.  The academic curriculum, the students and Oxford the town itself made the experience worthwhile. The BCL is an international course and draws students from all over the world. I made some amazing friends who I am in touch with till today.

     

    What made you go into the corporate sphere of law?

    The internships did help in making me choose my area of specialization. I found myself natural leaning towards corporate law as compared to other areas where I can see myself making an effort.

     

    Would you take us through the application process for Oxford?

    Applying to Oxford is similar to applying for any top rated LL.M program in the world. I would say to apply straight after law school requires some planning in terms of studying methodically, participating in extra-curricular activities, preparing good essays and actively seeking out references.

     

    What was it like working at Herbert Smith?

    Working at Herbert Smith was a fantastic experience. The training program is very thorough and the six months spent in each department goes a long way in understanding different areas of legal practice. The learning curve was steep but the kind of confidence and knowledge that I acquired is unparalleled.  I learnt a lot from the partners, the senior associates and my peers.

     

    Could you enlighten us, in brief, on the particulars of Islamic finance and your role in the Finance Team at Herbert Smith?

    I was an associate in the acquisition and leveraged finance team at Herbert Smith and subsequently Linklaters. The work has been varied ranging from vanilla lending to secured syndicated finance deals to highly leveraged secured deals.

    Islamic finance to me is simply finance deals that are structured bearing in mind the principles of Shari’ah law e.g. there is no reference to interest in the documentation. However at the end of the day, the basic essence of financing remains the same.

     

    How does it feel like to be Assistant Vice President – Global Transaction Banking at Deutsche Bank?

    It’s proving to be enjoyable and challenging at the same time. I am part of the transaction banking front office team which means I get to liaise with the different business teams on a daily basis. Its fast paced and solution oriented. Along with legal knowledge, I am expected to understand the various products that are offered to clients and draft/review documents and advise clients on the implications of different contractual arrangements. The work involves dealing with liquidity management products, international fund transfers and trade finance.

    Deutsche Bank is a very fluid organization and I can see my role changing and growing as I grow with the business team.

     

    What do you think of the young law graduates/students and the standard of education in the field currently?

    I think very highly of them and they are definitely a very focused lot. I have not been deeply involved with the academic field for the past seven years so it’s difficult for me to comment on the standard of education. I do feel that along with theory there should be a focus on the practical implementation of law.

     

    Any advice you’d like to give to young lawyers who hope to follow in your footsteps?

    I am sure that every young lawyer will be able to chalk their own path, but I would definitely encourage them to enjoy their years at law school and subsequently the practice of law. I would urge them to do what they want to do and not get bogged down in their fifth year and the first few years of legal practice by comparing themselves with their peers or superiors. Each lawyer is unique in his or her own way and there are no set rules to follow.  In seven years, I have learnt that its best to not take oneself too seriously or set very high targets but at the same time to enjoy learning and give 100% to whatever work I do at any point of time. Trust me, success follows when you can give as much as you can to your profession and yet manage to enjoy yourself at the same time.