Super Lawyer

Tag: IBM

  • Vasundhara Shrivastava, Legal Counsel, Cisco Systems on work experience as a Counsel in the Technology Industry

    Vasundhara Shrivastava, Legal Counsel, Cisco Systems on work experience as a Counsel in the Technology Industry

    Vasundhara Shrivastava graduated in Law from University of Bangalore in 2010. Having received a Gold Medal in Jurisprudence and being ranked 4th in B.A. Law Examination (among ~ 4000 students), Vasundhara joined IBM India on graduation where she continued till September 2015. Vasundhara has mainly worked on technology matters concerning IT Outsourcing, Cloud Services, Arbitration, Trust & Compliance and Environmental Law during her tenure at IBM. She has thereafter moved on to join Cisco Systems, where she is currently the Legal Counsel for India and SAARC region.

    In this interview Vasundhara answers to Rounak Biswas of SLS Pune the questions posed by Shafina Salahuddin of Calcutta University.

     

    What made you choose Law as your profession? Is there anyone else in your family who works in the legal field?

    I belong to a family of writers and freedom fighters. My father is an activist-writer and his writing focus on bringing out the pain of people who were forced to migrate in order to escape the misery of lawlessness. Thanks to him, the family dining table was a democratic platform accessible to the young ones in the family. It respected and protected our freedom of speech, and actively sought participation in decision making about issues that mattered to me. Reading and writing was always on top of the mind. It made me aware of various socio-political issues of that period. The constant debates in our home made me realize that the root cause of any trouble was the rampant lawlessness and the sole sustainable solution was law and order – interestingly, both were effects of governance and policies. I wanted to understand this better. Being a science student who loved mathematics, I was attracted to engineering as a profession.  It took me a bit of swerving and swaying but I soon followed my heart and decided to pursue law as my undergraduate major at the University of Bangalore, Karnataka.

     

    Which activities did you partake in? Please tell us about the manner in which you approached academics while in college.

    During college, while I focused on acing academics, I also leaned towards writing as my medium of expression. I went ahead and started publishing my articles and opinions on a range of issues from sexual harassment, role of media in democracy, child labour and women reservation bill to pharmaceutical patents – any issue that I felt deserved intervention and thought exercise from the angle of law and governance. Some of these were published by various law school journals, some were award winning essays and some won accolades from national and international organizations and in the process, my belief in law as a profession to bring about change strengthened. Academics was a keen interest for me but I was acutely aware to keep it related to the practical application. So I strived to developed an empirical and simple approach as opposed to the general notion of pedantic and intimidating legal language. During university exams, I questioned the conventional methods of answering. I believed that lengthy history answers could be reduced to simplified bullets and Sociology could be as objective as Physics. And I would say that my quest for being innovative in academics was well received! But I was aware that a smooth transition from a law student to a professional lawyer needed that extra push. First year onwards, I had begun to intern with various law firms and worked pro-bono for a few NGOs in Bangalore.  Essentially, I tried to push the boundaries of academics’ experience by designing it to match my passions and interests.

     

    What were your areas of interest during your graduation? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?

    I found laws related to media and technology particularly interesting. One was surrounded by real time legal and social issues in these areas. Social media was beginning to boom and technology was entering our lives like never before. The legal implications of such generation altering changes made me curious. To develop expertise and knowledge, I read whatever I could get my hands on and wrote passionately about such issues. My published essays touched upon issues ranging from Tsunami, Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy and the need for reforms in privacy laws to questions such as whether Novartis could patent Gleevac in India.

     

    What kind of internships did you do during your law school days?

    I did internships at various law firms in New Delhi (Trilegal) and Bangalore (Trilegal, ALMT Legal, Holla & Holla). These firms have a wide range of practice areas and this gave me an opportunity to work on telecom laws, patent laws, litigation, drafting, research etc. Internships were a great learning experience. It was less about knowing the right answers and more about pursuing the right way to derive answers to the unknown. I also worked pro-bono for some NGOs in Bangalore and these were long term associations. I was sensitized to matters of day to day importance, particularly related to women and children. These NGOs focused on children’s right to a quality education and happy childhood, women battling domestic violence and dowry. I conducted surveys and prepared projects suggesting alternative opportunities for children whose calling was not traditional but vocational schools.

     

    Did you find that your law school education had prepared you sufficiently for the many tasks you were required to execute during your internships and later at your job?

    Significantly but partially. During my undergraduate years, I often found myself questioning the niceties of legal language and its practical application at work. Our university education curriculum stresses on good academic record with limited focus on arranging internship opportunities for students in an organized manner. Being in Bangalore, the technology destination of India and home to thousands of start-ups, there was neither a better place nor a better time to pursue a career in technology laws. By third year, I had decided to work for technology driven companies as an in-house lawyer. So, I would say that college education was successful in helping me choose the course of my career as a lawyer. However, the details of the job were learnt on the job. I have worked from IBM and two years ago, I moved to Cisco. On-the-job learning has not stopped. There is no other way than to learn every day.

     

    You are associated with Mahila Dakshata Samiti (Pro-bono legal aid to women victims of domestic violence). How important do you think pro bono service is?

    One can’t stress enough on the need for pro-bono work, particularly for lawyers. While I believe that lawyers can provide genuinely the much needed help, the relationship is symbiotic. The amount of learning that happens through pro-bono work is phenomenal. It is an excellent way to give back to one’s community, it also provides a great means to develop one’s skills. We have to consciously block time on our hands for a wider range of pro bono and charitable work which is tangible and beyond our traditional work. To say the least, making a difference in someone else’s life will make you feel happier. Fortunately, all employers I have worked with encourage their employees in this area by running numerous campaigns and programs. They have tied up with various NGOs working in the field of housing and shelter, disability, education, hunger etc. where employees can work pro bono and make a difference.

     

    You’ve been a Professional Mentor for IDIA Scholars. How can interested students volunteer?

    IDIA has a Professional Mentorship Program for those who are interested in being a mentor to an IDIA scholar. When I wanted to be a part of this program, I got in touch with a friend who was working for IDIA. For those interested in volunteering as a mentor, it is important that he/she approaches this mentorship program in a structured manner to ensure that the experience is meaningful for both mentor and the mentee. Interested students can write to info@idialaw.com for details.

     

    You have published quite a few articles on social problems and were felicitated by the Governor of Karnataka for an essay on Child Labor recognized by ILO. How do you find time in the midst of your busy schedule?

    I enjoyed writing on issues which I believed, needed progressive laws. During college, I did not have to find time for it, rather it was what kept me busy. Recognition from the state government and organizations such as ILO was encouraging and at the same time, made me aware of the need to have a better understanding of my socio-economic surroundings.

     

    You are the Lead counsel for Channel Partners, Services and Commercial segment, India & SAARC. What are the roles and responsibilities?

    Cisco’s business model in India (and globally) is to serve its customers through its extensive world-class channel partner program, which means we sell our products and services primarily through channel partners. I handle legal and contractual issues associated with Cisco’s distributors, systems integrators and indirect channel partners. In the services and commercial segment, I advise our internal clients on the scope of our products and advanced services offerings (mainly network consulting and optimization), negotiate distributor and service agreements, apply commercial insight to deals and contractual structures in concert with other functions such as finance and service delivery, at all times aiming to provide legal advice that proactively enables business and at the same time helps to minimizes legal risk. Of course, there is always focus on ensuring adherence to internal policies and compliance requirements as well as critical aspects of anti-trust laws and anti-corruption that relate to our business model, channel partner and customer dealings.

     

    You were awarded the Prof. V.B. Coutinho Gold Medal for excellence in Jurisprudence. What is the mantra as most of the students have a tough time with it?

    I had heard enough and more about how difficult Jurisprudence was as a subject. Right in the beginning, I chose Salmond’s legal classic on jurisprudence and adopted an objective and inter-disciplinary approach to explain legal principles. While the classic legal language of jurisprudence could have intimidated me, a simpler and logical solution came to my rescue. Using Venn diagram instead of lengthy sentences to explain the concept of ‘joint and several liabilities’ in Jurisprudence was one such instance where being innovative and creative with concepts was appreciated by the evaluators. I was awarded Prof. V.B. Coutinho Gold Medal for the highest score in Jurisprudence in Bangalore University. These achievements gave me further hope regarding the possibility of innovation in law.

     

    You were Deployed on a prestigious IBM Corporate Service Corps (Aug – Sep, 2014). Please share your experience with our readers.

    (Top 500 global IBM leaders are deployed to address a high-priority social issue as a part of leadership development and CSR activity through a rigorous selection process)

    In 2013, with three years into my professional career, I was selected for IBM Corporate Service Corps Assignment. As IBM’s flagship CSR program (modeled on the US Peace Corps), CSC deploys top 500 global IBM leaders to address a high-priority social issue. I was one of the youngest member in IBM India to be selected for this program. In 2014, for two months, I was deployed in Taiyuan, China. It was a life-changing experience of community service coupled with leadership development with a team of ten employees selected from several departments of IBM across the globe. I braced myself to be tested on cultural awareness by this multi-cultural broth. Our client, the Department of Civil Affairs, Taiyuan was looking for coherent strategies to revamp its Community Centres. I focused on the elderly population of Taiyuan – old ‘empty nesters’ who would rather live on their own than go for professional nursing and care. I conducted surveys and interviews of the ageing population, and four weeks later our team had converged their stories into a summarized narrative, which was presented as our recommendations to the government. Sensitivity to cultural norms and enhanced inter-personal skills made it a well-rounded personal and professional journey.

     

    Previously, you were an Attorney at IBM India, what kind of work were you tasked with? What was a normal work day in your life like?

    I joined IBM in 2010, right after college. Honestly, it was a little overwhelming to be selected as an Attorney in a company known to have shaped a century! First few months at IBM were about training and education sessions. Later, almost seventy percent of my work was handling technology transactions with government and private customers which included negotiations and transactional advice. Rest of the pie was an interesting mix of issues around real estate matters, environmental laws, business partners and ad hoc general legal advice. I was with IBM at a very interesting time when the IT industry was witnessing the transition from traditional offerings to trending industry concepts like cloud computing, big data and Analytics. A significant time and effort was towards adapting to these changes through constant learning. Needless to say, I was fortunate to work in one of the best legal departments with brilliant lawyers and managers who had a significant role to play in honing my skills as a professional.

     

    We thank you for agreeing to this interview. As a concluding message, what would be your word of advice to our readers?

    Thank you SuperLawyer for this opportunity. It is a great medium to connect with the members of our fraternity. And this is rather a concluding thought that I would like to share with the readers – from being an outsourcing destination, we are now the third biggest start-up ecosystem in the world. For our country to sustain its technology driven growth, as technology lawyers, we must constantly upgrade our skills to support this transition. We cannot be lawyers in the traditional sense. We are expected to be business enablers, aware of the market trends, always learning on the job!

     

  • Mekhla Basu, Senior Compliance Counsel, Intel Technologies, on Regulatory Compliance, the importance of higher education, and her experience

    Mekhla Basu, Senior Compliance Counsel, Intel Technologies, on Regulatory Compliance, the importance of higher education, and her experience

    Mekhla Basu graduated in BSL LLB from I.L.S Law College under Pune University in 2005. She is a qualified legal & compliance professional and senior executive with experience in advising top multinationals on operating procedures & business practices for legal & compliance requirements in the Greater Asia Region. In her professional experience, Mekhla has proficiently provided corporate consultancy to management & board of directors in top multinational companies in her career spanning over a decade; has in-depth competence in anti-trust & competition law, Intellectual Property and cyber/ e-commerce laws, privacy & data security, labour & employment, alternate dispute resolution, corporate governance & ethical landscape,  risk mitigation and other complex legal issues applicable to multinational companies across industries like FMCG, Medical & Pharma and IT. Mekhla has been one of India’s youngest Regional GCs, and widely known in the industry for her core competence. Mekhla has also served as country Vice-Chair with Business Software Alliance (“BSA”) in a non-profit role.

    In this interview we speak to her about:

    • The Legal Compliance regime in India
    • Her time at Unilever, GE Healthcare, IBM, and Intel
    • Being one of the youngest General Counsels in the country

    Given that most of our readers are law students and young lawyers, how will you introduce yourself to them?

    I come from a family of business and engineering. In fact, I would like to point out that no one in my extended family has even studied, let alone practised, law. My interest in law started when I was very young. I come from a family of illustrated freedom fighters, including both my grandparents. Since childhood a sense of self respect, freedom and empathy towards human misery was instilled by my family and one of the ways they cleverly did that was by introducing me to reading, very early in life; in fact by the time I started school, I was already home taught to read. A voracious reader as a child, many of the inspiring characters, political thinkers, statesmen of the world were lawyers and I started viewing this profession as a noble one and one where I could help others by standing up for their rights.

    What was it that got you interested in the legal field?

    As I said earlier, my interest in the field of law was purely ideological. I had excellent grades in school, which had offered me an opportunity to pursue any stream – and at one point I did seriously consider studying medicine because psychiatry was another subject that intrigued me (and still does). I have always had a bit of a rebellious streak. In my generation, most bright young people with great grades were pursuing science. I had always loved reading, especially history, sociology, psychology and politics outside of my school curriculum, which had given me enough wisdom to conclude, even at a young age itself that one needs to pursue passion over trends. Even at the cost of criticism from my teachers and well-wishers I took up humanities with pure mathematics as my +2 subjects so I focus on what I want to do next- i.e. law. Through all this, I had unconditional support from my parents on the freedom of choice!

     

    How was your experience in law school? Do you think law school prepared you for the real world practice of law? 

    My five years in law school was a rewarding experience; partly due to the fact that my education was self-propelled, partly because I had excellent school mates with gifted and curious minds. Debating with class mates over a cup of tea at the famous ILS canteen, or even seniors on jurisprudence was one of our favourite ways to pass time We had very good faculty as well; I still remember Mrs. Jathal and Mrs. Bhadbade who were iconic figures. It was a pleasure attending their classes. However, legal education in India is very theory centric and nothing prepares you for the fast paced, psychotic, dynamic business environment, especially as an in-house counsel that you find yourself landed in, few years hence. I must say however, internships, really help. My interest in extra-curricular was more inclined to human –rights and I had spent a couple of months doing volunteering work during the Gujrat riots, in the violence stricken city of Ahmedabad, especially helping women victims of heinous crimes find their legal rights. As a young adult, this volunteering experience propelled me toward accepting the real, politically tumultuous world we live in. I have also written extensively in books relating to the subjects of women’s rights and violence against women.

     

    What were your areas of interest in law school? How did you recognise and cultivate such interests?

    My top interest were women’s rights, intellectual property and governance related issues. All of the fields, I have had the good fortune to work in real time. I developed interest in these fields through reading, mostly and they being intrinsic subjects of relevance and interest.

     

    What are your views about the importance of higher education?  

    I have considered higher studies and to be honest I still am considering. Nothing replaces the power of education and exposure to fellow brilliant minds. My suggestion will be, even though you have scholarship merit or have the means to rely on parental resources—hold-off your masters as long as you can, till you are sure about your interest in the field of law. Also, once you acquire extensive work experience, it is not necessary that an LLM will continue to interest you—getting a degree in management or finance or strategy/ leadership or even risk mitigations are all great avenues for future growth and brand building. Do this outside of India, if you can. Exposure to a foreign culture opens your mind, beyond means you can imagine. Most students use LLM degree to get the ideal job at a mid-career level. Trust me, if you are that lethal combination diligence, resilience and brilliance, you will land great jobs with great companies, anyway. Rather use your PG/ Ph.D or M.Phil degree to enhance your career and the brand you!

     

    What was your first job after college and how did you secure it? 

    My first job after college was with the biggest IP law firm in the country. I had a fabulous boss who was a senior associate. She taught me the importance of having an eye for detail—the single most important skill that can be acquired through practice and this helps me in my day to day job.

     

    Do you recall your first time appearing in court?

    There is no end to preparation when it comes to Court appearances. Standing real time, in front of a judge, for a complex IP matter with an equally intimidating oppositing counsel had given me butterflies. However, once I appeared and started arguing my case, my confidence came back—thank god to the power of a thorough homework and doing a lot of research on the client’s business!

     

    What caused you to move to being an in house counsel from working at a law office? 

    Frankly, I found the experience in law firms a bit limiting and political. Not to criticise anyone, I had excellent mentors in the law firms I had worked and they are still my close friends and confidants in personal/ professional life. I am talking more about the general culture of insecurity and politics and the lack of abject professional attitude with which Indian firms operate. I am extremely to the point and objective by nature who appreciates & deserves fast tracked growth and real accountability—this is where the decision to switch to a multi-national company occurred.

     

    How did your appointment at Unilever happen? 

    This is an interesting story that reiterates the power of networking—which I am normally very bad at. I had applied to Unilever way back in 2006 but no suitable opportunities were offered. Incidentally, my college mate’s family friend was a senior legal Director in Unilever and during one of my work visits to Mumbai, I went across to meet him. I believe he was very impressed and encouraged me to apply again. I did so after six months, in 2007 in a suitable opening and was called for an interview. I went through five rounds of interview, including one with Executive Director, Legal and was able to impress the senior panelists with my pragmatic sense and foundations of first principles. I was being interviewed for a position in the branch office but post the interview, was told that I will be joining the head office directly, in super interesting newly created role– that of a marketing lawyer. That started my life long journey of being a generalist with an inclination for cutting edge legal issues like competition, privacy, advertising disputes and high value transaction negotiations. Ten years ago, these were very niche fields and very little to fall back on, but I’m truly glad about the trust Unilever reposed on me and having met some fantastic mentors like Mr. Rajesh Bagga and Mr. Saswat Dhar who are almost institutions in the legal fraternity. It goes a long way, when you learn from the best minds.

    How did you secure a position at GE Healthcare? 

    Except for Unilever, in all my jobs, I have been head-hunted. For a personal reason, I needed to move to Bangalore from Mumbai. It was a risk, but one worth taking, hence I took it anyway. Healthcare as an industry is highly regulated and especially in GE the Healthcare division had several sub-divisions like equipment manufacturing, life science, pharma and health care technology. Each of these divisions had their own regulatory as well as ethical challenges and a tight-rope walking to manage the compliance as well as business profitability is a huge challenge for any lawyer in the health care segment.

     

    How did you secure a position with IBM? 

    Through a leading head-hunter in Asia. This was my first role as a Compliance Officer and the switch I made from a General Counsel to a compliance role. Idealistic, as it may sound, I was tired of making money for the corporations I worked for. I wanted to do something more- make a real difference. Not by doing something drastic like taking up activism, but creating value in the corporate world itself. The role of a Compliance Officer, offers an individual that ability. Just as the nomenclature suggests, appointment as IBM’s Trust and Compliance Officer, made me responsible for the overall ethical and cultural compliance of the company employing over 100,000 people in India alone. Subject area wise, my realm was good governance; anti-corruption; anti-money laundering; employee best practices; in-house forensic investigations and risk identification, analysis and mitigation. As part of the management team, a Compliance Officer has a voice on how to run the company and ensures good governance. There is as much power in this role as there is responsibility.

    Could you tell us how your appointment with Intel happened?

    My appointment with Intel as Intel’s South East Asia Compliance Officer happened earlier this year- again through a head-hunter. In addition to my portfolio in IBM, at Intel, I am responsible for good governance and anti-competition compliance in over 16 countries of operation. The first and foremost challenge is of course- logistical- working across the different time zones, tele-commuting to maximise presence in all the different country’s management teams and establish oneself as a credible leader in Asia. Next, of course, are the differences in legal structure—while a Singapore is very sophisticated and compliant, we have India and Vietnam that are perceived to be corrupt and chaotic markets. Third and the most significant one are the cultural differences that one needs to be mindful of-  not just in the Company but also the eco-system for eg. re-sellers, vendor, distributors partners etc.

     

    What do you find interesting about Compliance and what are the top compliance concerns in India? 

    Let’s cut a long story short; a company will not go out of operation if there is a mistake in a transaction or if they lose a case in the Court of law, they might go out of operation however, if the employee or even a vendor pays a bribe. We are living in an age where adherence to compliance is increasingly under scrutiny—it helps companies build and retain their brand value, ensures business sustainability and looks after share-holders interest, not only in the country of operation but globally. In the last few years, how many names of companies have you heard that have come under the scrutiny of regulators for unfair business practices, insider trading, unduly influencing Government stakeholders.  Many companies are recruiting top talents from the legal field to join as their chief compliance officer. As a compliance officer, you are acting more like a lawyer to the legal team, a senior executive responsible for the operation of the company at par with CFO or the COO. There is a misconception that compliance is boring, in fact it is exactly the opposite. In how many departments will you get the opportunity to conduct legal and forensic investigations to come to a root of the matter. My advise to young students will be that you consider this field, after a few years into the profession. You cannot however become a good compliance officer unless you are a brilliant lawyer.

    In India there are several compliance related issues that keep me awake at night. Recruiting and integrating lateral hires, into the culture of the company and setting expectations of right conduct. Balancing immense business pressure with ethical demands, is another. Working with third parties who represent the company in the market; expecting them to and ensuring they follow similar ethical standard is a big challenge. Last but not the least, ensuring that there is right tone from top management level and example setting is yet another.

    If I were to list in order of priority, top MNC Tech companies are plagued with privacy and sovereignty of data issue. Along with that comes the challenge to structure innovative distributorship and resell channels, given our burgeoning anti-trust legislation. Many companies hire contract workers, management of contractual workers is also a big issue to be watchful about. Last but not the least, our taxation system is complex and requires much time and resource to manage and simplify.

     

    How do you stay up to date about the recent developments in all the fields you work in and have an interest in? 

    Read, read, read. Nothing replaces the power of reading and constantly updating what is happening around the world. There is a new trend in the industry to attend several conferences and even at times be a part of panel discussions etc—personally I find that less rewarding and overtly generalised. These days, the largest and the most powerful companies are one that have big data, so imagine what a difference big data can make to personal skills.

    Having said that, in today’s time there is just too much to read and it is important to stream-line one’s interest or goals. But above all, what is happening around the world politically or socially is also strongly connected to the changes in legal field. An example- Brexit is a truth of our generation, can we then delve deep to understand what will be the future of merger control laws? Similarly, if one has an interest—what are the legal implications of self-driven vehicles? There is just too much out there- my suggestion would be to choose your topic in line with your interest and deep dive– this will continue to reward you personally and professionally.

     

    Can you give our readers some advice that would help them improve their chances of getting published?

    The only advise I have for students or young lawyers when you are looking at publishing is treat your subject like a university dissertation. Three things should come across very clearly- The exact moot point, the analysis- both for and against and a clear, objective conclusion. I read so many article that are pointless and worse still, generic. Please remember, through your article, you are showcasing your intellect and the last thing you want is to show-case is a generic mind. These days there are multiple venues of publications—many online forums. I’m extremely critical about choosing the right medium. Also, if writing is your passion, don’t wait for a forum, start your own legal blog.

     

    How is being a general counsel different from working in a law office? 

    (Mekhla has been one of India’s youngest General Counsels.)

    Thank you and yes I do feel immensely fortunate in my career to reach an apex point at a young age. I truly believe- you do not need gray hair to show your gray cells. In this entrepreneur and start-up driven world, boards are full of twenty and 30 somethings and it is time large corporations recognise that and value millennials for what they bring to the table- passion, empathy, collaboration, critical thinking, ability to ask probing questions and cultural navigability.

    I get asked this question very often- what makes a successful general counsel and there are no top 5 or 10 qualities. It is, in fact, an amalgamation of a few. A GC should be a fast thinker and a good listener. A GC should have the fragile balance of empathy and assertion. It is important for a young GC to establish quick credibility and in this case, there is no replacement for hard work. I read somewhere, that an average CEO reads 60 books a year—a GC should read more and be totally abreast of legal, social, financial and political issues. I have spoken about eye for detail earlier, this needs to constantly worked on—be that Sherlock Holmes you always wanted to be- your role as an in-house counsel offers you the unique opportunity to be that!

    All these great qualities however are of no use without a reasonable and balanced mind- give yourself regular breaks, spend time with people you value and care and create your own board of directors and supporters within and outside the organisation, who not only vouch for you professionally but as a good person; as a good leader. Look out for your team- they are your family.

    Be kind and be brave.

     

    What advice do you have for our readers who are primarily college students?

    This may sound professorial, but please constantly self-actualise to see what drives you. Is it the adrenaline rush to appear before court, the sense of fulfilment to stand up for the underprivileged or the fast paced, action packed life of the corporate world. Please experiment and please switch, if it does not suit your personality and aptitude. It is a given that most law students will have an above-average IQ, but do not ignore your building on your EQ. Do as much internships as possible and please do not cast your mind in stone- be adaptable. Please remember, in the end, you will be known for the difference you make in the world and not what your first take-home salary was.   

  • Sagnik Ghose, Counsel, FactSet, on work of an in-house counsel at MNCs

    Sagnik Ghose, Counsel, FactSet, on work of an in-house counsel at MNCs

    Sagnik Ghose is currently an in-house counsel for FactSet India. He graduated from NUJS in 2006. While in college, he has worked with Paras Kuhad Associates, Kolkata and interned at Reliance. After law school, Sagnik was an Assistant Manager at Dr. Reddy’s. Subsequently he has worked at the Chugh Firm, an international tax accounting firm, and IBM.

    In this interview he talks about:

    • Law school experience at NUJS
    • The first year after graduation
    • Working at various Law Firms and Companies

     

    How was your life before college? Kindly tell us about you pre-university educational background. Plus, do you have lawyers in your family?

    I haven’t had any lawyers in my family. My dad is a doctor and all my uncles are engineers. Plus, I have grown up in Calcutta, a city rich in art, music and cultural heritage. My mother is a trained classical musician. I, however, never had any exposure to law and the legal profession during my years growing up, and even after joining college, other than whatever exposure I got in college itself. Hence, there was almost no exposure to law during my precollege life.

     

    Did you not aspire to become an engineer, doctor or artist, given your family background? How did you get to know about law as a profession and what motivated you to take up the same as a career?

    Well, I was never really pressurised by my parents to do something that I didn’t have an inclination towards. However, I had very little exposure to and knowledge about the scope and array of things which a lawyer can do, except litigation. As and when I was exploring my career options during the final years of school, NUJS had come up as a new college, not even a year old. The motivation to get through to NUJS and join the legal profession was the fact that the university had been set up by Dr. Madhava Menon, who at that point of time (and even now), was a figure to reckon with. I had a discussion with my father about law as a career option, and he supported me completely. After having made up my mind, I gave the entrance exam a serious shot and became the first person in my family to enter the legal profession.

     

    According to you, what should a person, who hasn’t had the fortune of studying in a top law school, do so as to develop skills required in the legal profession? Do you think that they are at the same standing with NLU students?

    Well, my personal opinion is that a person graduating from a top NLU has that extra edge when it comes to campus placements only. On a close look at the industry, we can see that most of the top rated general counsels, partners or senior partners in law firms or senior law officials are from non-blue-blooded law schools, and have made their way to the top through the more difficult old school way, that is, working hard. It is after litigating for years or advising clients in Companies that they have figured out what the clients need. I think that which law school you graduate from makes little difference. Just like my other passion, cooking, it doesn’t matter which culinary school you pass out from. If after passing out, you put in your best, nothing can stop you from becoming a great chef. Even if you fail to get into an NLU, there is no reason to give up hope on the legal profession. If, after entering the professional field, you work hard and apply yourself correctly, you are guaranteed to be a successful counsel. The flip side is that, if you do graduate from an NLU and get placed in a law firm or a Company, you get to learn a lot more during the initial stint of your career. So, yes, there are both pros and cons, but I would say that studying in a top NLU is just a part of it, but certainly not the entire picture.

     

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    How was law school? How did you go about your academics as well as extra-curricular activities? Were you into mooting?

    For me, the law school experience has been very positive. Having studied at NUJS, I got involved in many activities apart from the mandatory academics. I was a part of the student juridical association for a very long time. I did a bit of intra college moots, but I was not too much into mooting. I had realised that a career in litigation was not for me, and therefore, did not place too much of an emphasis on mooting.

    During my final year of law school, all throughout, I used to study in the first half of the day, and during afternoon I used to work in Paras Kuhad and Associates.I used to help them with small issues and research work and worked on various legal questions with a senior, Kushagra. Apart from other internships, this actually helped me mould my understanding of what actually a client is looking for, why a business lawyer is so much in demand, and what is expected from a business lawyer when he joins a Company in house.

    Apart from this, I also worked with Arjya Bir Majumdar, one of my closest friends from school, to help the WWF in whatever way we could. We actually took time off on a Sunday morning, went down to a market in Chingrihata, found turtles being sold (sale of turtle meat is banned), bought one of the live ones with our pocket money (what with us being students and money being short!), and then went to the Alipore Zoo to release it into the water!All of the above, in addition to the obligatory line of heartbreaks and new girlfriends, soulful music and endless food, hanging out at the movie halls and getting hammered at the local bars. It was an eventful five years!

    Despite them thinking otherwise, students actually have a lot of time, and they should take some time off to go get some valuable guidance under a senior lawyer to figure out what excites him or her the most.

     

    Kindly tell us about you internship at Reliance. Was it then that you decided to become an in-house counsel?

    Well, the Reliance internship was definitely the turning point for me. Before that, I had only worked with law firms and NGOs, but the Reliance internship actually changed everything for me. One, I had never spent so much time, almost three months, outside my city, working, that too in a city like Mumbai, which has such a brilliant work environment and where you get to work with the best of legal and business professionals. So the Reliance internship was an eye-opener on a lot of fronts, since I got to work with many good, solid lawyers, some of whom continue to be my friends even after so long. I got a learn a lot about laws around privacy, intellectual properties, copyrights, business laws, both procurement and sales, trademarks, media, technology, basically every law a lawyer can think of under the TMT business. There were a lot of intricacies that were involved in the Reliance internship. Getting a taste of the work, I decided to extend my internship. An internship is normally for 6-8 weeks, but I did it for almost 12 weeks, because of which I missed college a bit, but it was worth it. I also got a very good stipend at the end of my internship. Plus, I got due recognition for the work I did and also built a good rapport with my seniors. I also gave a couple of compliance presentations. Hence, summing up, I got really healthy work, and it helped me realise that working in a Company is something I can actually do, and contribute positively to the growth of a Company.

     

    Would you say that NUJS prepared you for the real professional world? Were the things that were taught at NUJS relevant to your internships and first year at work?

    Well, the answer to that is yes and no. I feel that some of the courses at that time should have been better tuned in the final year when students are looking to enter the work field. I am saying this because when I started working, I realised that almost three quarters of my time is being spent in working on contracts, which is a subject which was taught in the very first year of law school.

    So I really think that our college should have offered an advanced course on contracts, apart from the courses which were taught to us is our final years, to give students an exposure to various aspects of contract law that they would be dealing with while working. There are complex concepts like change control, confidentiality, data privacy and control, termination, warranties, indemnities, limitation of liabilities and there are various aspects to each of these concepts which one has to deal with while strategizing, understanding and negotiating contracts. I really think that every law school should offer, atleast as optional courses, tools which can equip you to deal with situations where you have to negotiate with more experienced professionals.

    For example, the person on the other side of the table would either be an in-house counsel or an external counsel. So, for an in-house counsel, it becomes very important to be more reasonable and break the ice during negotiations, whereas, for external counsels, you have to test waters and understand his level of aggression (because he has to justify his bills, I have more often faced very aggressive external counsels) and knowledge of his client before you start negotiations. Areas like these, which you learn during your professional experience, should atleast be offered as an optional course.

     

    After graduating from NUJS in 2006, you got to join Dr. Reddy’s Laboratories as an Assistant Manager. How did this happen, and what were your responsibilities?

    After passing out in 2006, Iwas appointed as a management trainee, and I spent about a year in probation before getting appointed as an Assistant Manager. In the first year, I was doing general corporate legal work, and then I moved on to more focused branded formulations work. My primary responsibility was to look at all the branded formulation contracts for all the thirty six countries. That is what I used to do for about a year, before I decided to move on.

     

    Many law students suspect that they would need to know a bit about pharmacy and chemistry if they want to join as an in-house counsel at a place like Dr. Reddy’s Laboratories. Is it true?

    Well, again yes and no. If you are looking to join as a fresher then they’ll not expect you to know much about the pharmaceutical industry, which you’ll have to learn on the job. But, if you are looking to join as an experienced professional, then ofcourse they expect you to know things like what licensing terms and conditions typically are, how much time does it take for a molecule to develop and so on. So yes, if you are joining as a fresher, you are not expected to know these nuances but if you join as a professional, you have to have a strong grip on the basics.

     

    How was your experience working there?

    It was excellent! I had a very good mentor in Mr. Narasimha Das, who was their General Counsel. He taught me the basics, like creating a checklist to be looked at while creating, or marking up agreements, managing time, speaking to clients and managing expectations. He exposed me to the maximum number of agreements, co-development, licensing, confidentiality, distribution, marketing, services, IT services, basically, the works. He literally held me by the hand and taught me how to strategize mark-ups and negotiations, learning body language and identifying signs of closure. I owe a great deal to him!

     

    After your work at Dr. Reddy’s Laboratories, you moved on to join an international tax accounting firm, the Chugh Firm. How did the shift take place, and how different was it from working at a pharmaceutical firm?

    The Chugh Firm is an international tax accounting firm. However, I joined their Indian partners, Universal Legal. I was a part of the core corporate legal team where I was helping in incorporation of Companies, post incorporation compliances, assisting in agreement processes and so on. It was very different, since I moved from an in-house counsel to a service oriented role. It was very different in terms of work culture.

    Specifically, in a mid-sized ambitious set up like Universal Legal, if you don’t provide answers to clients as of yesterday, your clients just move on the some other firm, which we could not have allowed to happen! Most of our clients used to be start-ups, who are typically hungry and desperate to succeed. They expected super high turnaround time and high quality of work. The thing with start-ups is, if you start off on a good note with them, and if it clicks, then they will be your clients for life. So I did that for about 3 years, where I learned to advise clients on a variety of legal aspects.

     

    After that, you joined IBM. What does an attorney do at an MNC like IBM? What were your responsibilities?

    In big Companies like IBM, the superstructure is usually broken down into wings dedicated for specific purposes. I was appointed at IBM as a deal lawyer for Global Business Services, which is their consultancy business. Basically, I used to negotiate on behalf of IBM from the legal perspective and help close deals for IBM. I used to work closely with sales, taxation, business, solutions and software teams for helping to take calls on questions of liability, protection, tax implications and so on. My time in IBM was very enjoyable, and this is the place which taught me how big Companies manage work efficiently in spite of their bulk and reach. A shout out here to Ajay Dua, who heads the legal function in IBM India for helping me out on multiple occasions with easy, workable solutions to complex problems. He has been an excellent mentor!

     

    At all the three places you worked, was the work similar or did you have to learn new skills every time you joined a new place?

    Well, some basic things like principles of contracts, litigation processes, HR policies etc., have to be the same, because the underlying laws are the same. The important change is whom you are working for. For example, working with Dr. Reddy’s Laboratories, you have to think from a global MNC perspective, and the effect on the position of an MNC dealing with pharmaceuticals. When you are dealing with something like pharmaceuticals, the liability is much greater, since human life is involved. One has to exercise extreme amounts of caution when you take on certain liabilities. But when you work with an IT giant like IBM, the life threatening aspect goes off the table.

    However, that doesn’t mean that there is any less liability. In a Company like IBM, you are dealing with large nationalised banks, which perform transactions worth millions of dollars in a single cycle. Accuracy and speed are tantamount to such transactions, and therefore, the liability is no less here.The heads of risk might differ but the risk of doing business is always present. One needs to figure out which risk is acceptable and which risk is absolutely non-acceptable in that particular industry. So there is this learning curve which you go through when you enter any work culture or a firm or a Company, and that is the learning curve you need to adapt to, and once that is done, things easily fall into place. So all the places where I have worked have been extremely different but equally rewarding and enriching as far as my understanding of different workplaces go.

     

    What are the highlights of your career till joining FactSet? How did you decide to leave IBM and join FactSet?

    FactSet has been around for a good 36 years now, and is a global leader in the field of financial information analytics, intelligence and solutions. I decided to leave IBM primarily because at IBM I was doing very high level of work, but I was doing only one kind of work, that is contracts and negotiations. I had no reason to complain, this is how any big Company functions, since efficiency is of paramount importance. After having worked with IBM for three years, the next logical step I could take was to expand my field of work in order to move up. I was looking for an opportunity where I could deal with not just contracts but also corporate matters, administrative matters, general government regulatory mechanisms, compliance matters and the entire gamut of general in house counsel queries, including sales. As a counsel for FactSet, that is just what I do, and it is brilliant working here!

    At FactSet, I have a dual role. One, I provide advice to my internal clients with regard to a number of matters, like contracts, real estate, labour, compliance, government regulations, negotiations and so on. This is at a local level. At the global level,I work a lot with the global team with regard to contract negotiations and deal making. If anybody is looking to move in an MNC which gives dual responsibility, they can expect a kind of work in which they’ll have to work at both local and global levels.

     

    Does your current role at FactSet involve any amount of data crunching?

    No, that is done by the operations team, just like at Dr. Reddy’s, a lawyer is not expected to develop molecules! I am the legal counsel for FactSet. As a legal counsel, you need to understand how the different wings of the Company work in tandem, what risks your Company can or cannot take, how flexible you can be for contract negotiations, which factors should influence your judgment of risks and so on.

     

    Do you have any vacancies for legal interns at FactSet?

    We do not have a permanent internship facility at FactSet. Normally, legal interns are taken for two reasons.

    One, they learn about FactSet and what sort of issues/ concerns come up in a global Company. That is the short term internship, which is for a month or so, which most Companies are open to.

    Secondly, there are long term internships to hunt for a good prospective employee. Currently, we aren’t really pursuing the second kind of aspect since all the positions are full but if somebody wants a shot term internship, then probably we can give it a thought.

     

    What do you think of higher studies as a career strategy? Do you plan to go for higher studies?

    I don’t, but then a couple of years ago I was thinking of an MBA, purely because I was interested in management, setting up a legal team and helping a Company to grow. So I would say that it’s a good idea to work for some years at different places, maybe a combination of Companies and law firms, and figure out what you are actually interested in. At that point of time, one can figure out what kind of higher studies you want to go in for, be it LL.M, MBA or anything. So it entirely depends upon a person. I have a very neutral stance with regard to higher studies, since I have seen many students studying advanced courses but still not making a mark in the market and some who havea simple law degree doing a wonderful job. So it completely depends on the person.

     

    The question that whether one should specialise in a particular area of law or be more of a general lawyer often comes up before law students. What is your opinion on the same?

    My opinion is to never specialise early on in your career, especially when you are in law school. That is because when you specialise, you start leaving out on some other spheres of law. Always explore the field. One should know about all the options that are available. There are so many avenues which a lawyer can go into these days, and the scope of work which a law student can do now is phenomenal. Never specialise in your last year of law school or your first year in a job. Just keep on generalising and growing on general strengths. Once you have done that, in around 8-10 years, you can know in what area you really want to go forward, if at all, and then you can specialise.

     

    What is your advice to law students who want to build a great legal work profile?

    A couple of them. One, you need to be a generalist at the start of your career. This comes with a disclaimer, that if you have a lawyer in your family and you at an early stage know what you want to do, it is a different ballgame. But when you don’t have that advantage, you should be a generalist at the start, and you should then build your profile with regard to being a general lawyer who is good at researching and understands the law of the land. It’s not just the work profile as far as going to office and advising your clients is concerned. You should be the scholar who a person on the road can have the confidence of approaching with a legal query and expect a well-structured, solid answer.

    Second, understand what your client wants. Always listen carefully to what your clients are saying, understand their needs and then respond. You don’t need to respond right away, but don’t give them a wrong response.

    Be very careful, since people automatically assume that being a law graduate, you are an expert in all laws. Hence, you need to be extremely careful with the advice you are dispensing. If you have read Kafka, you would be able to draw parallels between law and a big black house in a dream. You turn a corner, and all the roads look the same. It is scary for an outsider. Lawyers are supposed to be the friends, figure out the dream and help their clients. Law is as dangerous a field as medicine. So the amount of trust you place in your doctor, if the same amount of trust your client can place in you, then you are going to make it big, and there is no stopping you.