Can you share what initially inspired you to pursue a career in law and how your journey began?
By a stroke of fate, I found myself on the path to becoming a lawyer just a day before my 12th-grade results. It was a decision made by my father and sister to guide me towards law instead of medicine. Little did I know that this unexpected turn would lead me to a remarkable legal journey. Was fortunate to meet some great people and books in the legal field.
I pursued a Bachelor of Laws degree from Shivaji University in Sangli, Maharashtra. Subsequently, I pursued a Master of Laws in Business Law at Symbiosis Law School, where I had enriching experiences such as internships with the Competition Commission of India, contributing to international publications, and engaging in advanced legal research.
My time at Symbiosis Law School marked the beginning of a remarkable professional journey. I ventured into the corporate sphere, contributing to esteemed organizations such as Kirloskar Brothers Limited, John Deere India, Thermax Limited, and now, Bayer CropScience. Also got the opportunity to work with some great managers.
Your career spans various notable companies and roles. Can you walk us through the major milestones and transitions in your professional journey?
Well, there are many, but few are very special, like high stake arbitrations against dealers, NGO’s or PSU’s where you work hard and obtain favourable orders for your company. Arbitration requires continuance focus, as these matters are not time bound and will finish quickly.
Also implementing a compliances tool from scratch for manufacturing sites, establishments and EPC sites was a great learning experience. Further, implementation of new legislations like HSRP, EPR, Legal Metrology Packaging Rules too enriching experience. Last year I received an award by Legasis for ‘40 Under 40’.
I started my corporate journey with a capital goods manufacturing and EPC company, where I delved into the intricacies of commercial contracts, navigated complex real estate issues, and delved into the realm of Patents and Trademarks. This experience laid the groundwork for my subsequent endeavors, as I transitioned to an automobile company, where I gained invaluable insights into legal operations, statutory compliances, MACT and labour cases, advising on employment laws, and the complex web of EHS regulations.
In my subsequent roles within the power/renewable sector, I found myself immersed in a range of commercial disputes spanning India and various regions across the globe. This journey also brought me face to face with the complexities of MSME and IBC issues, enriching my understanding of the multifaceted legal landscape.
Currently, I stand as a Legal Business Partner for Legal Operations, overseeing sites and their litigations, navigating the contracts, and ensuring adherence to employment laws and EHS regulations.
As the Legal Business Partner at Bayer CropScience, what are some of the key responsibilities and challenges you face in leading legal operations in India?
The role of a Legal Business Partner is to serve as a strategic advisor and collaborator within a business, working closely with various stakeholders. Being a part manufacturing site’s leadership team- understand business needs, collaborate and advise on varieties of issues like License to operate, show cause notices from Govt. authorities, leading arbitration/litigation, dealing with complex real estate issues, negotiating commercial contracts & compliances advice.
India Legal operations have unique challenges- first, Regulatory Complexity- Navigating the intricate web of laws and regulations at the national, state, and local levels, as well as the dynamic nature of regulatory changes, can pose significant challenges for legal operations. Second, Compliance Management-Ensuring real time compliance with a wide array of statutory and regulatory requirements, including labor laws, environmental regulations, tax laws, and industry-specific regulations, requires robust compliance management systems and processes.
You have many notable achievements in resolving high-stake litigation. Can you tell us more about these experiences and what they entailed?
It was a profound experience. It demands a strong legal strategy. Further, it involves analyzing complex legal issues, anticipating opposing arguments and being ready with counter strategy. Being an in-house counsel you have to explain the complex business issue to the lawyer in a simple way and explain complex legal issues to business in a simple way, that is the advantage of being an inhouse counsel. It will also teach you resilience in intense pressure, tight deadlines, and the need to maintain composure. Being a meditation teacher is an advantage.
You will soon find that the reward for good work is more work.
However, I personally believe that litigation and arbitration are expensive, and the recent Mediation Act will play an important role in future legal disputes.
Given your extensive experience in various sectors like agriculture, renewable energy, and manufacturing, what are some unique legal challenges you’ve encountered in these industries?
In any manufacturing industry, more or less, 3 tasks are always there, 1. Employment Laws: Adhering to labor laws, industrial relations, and employment regulations, including issues related to labor disputes, contract labor, and workplace safety, presents legal challenges for manufacturing industries. 2. Product Liability and Consumer Protection: Managing product liability risks, compliance with consumer protection laws, and addressing consumer grievances and product safety standards are critical legal considerations for manufacturers. 3. Environmental Compliance and Pollution Control: Ensuring compliance with environmental laws, pollution control norms, hazardous waste management, and addressing industrial pollution concerns are significant legal challenges for manufacturing entities.
This is not about legal operations, but I believe we should have an institute or organization for in-house legal counsel, similar to those for other professions. This would help in the growth and development of in-house legal counsel.
Compliance with regulatory requirements is a critical part of your role. How do you ensure that your company stays ahead of regulatory changes and maintains compliance across various legal domains?
Technology plays an important role here. We have good numbers of compliance management tools in India, which monitor thousands of compliances and hundreds of legislations in real time. Further, the tool needs to be updated with the latest legislation. In my personal opinion no tool will work on its own, it is people who make the tool work. The success of a tool will depend on how simple and convenient the tool is. Also, we need to acknowledge employees’ efforts on compliances and compliance needs to be celebrated.
Shifting gears, GenAI has the potential to significantly impact legal compliances, it can predict and monitor compliance trends, anticipate regulatory changes, automated compliance reporting and provide Compliance Training. Inhouse counsel needs to take the advantage of the GenAI, my current organization offers a ‘Prompt engineering’ course to employees.
Finally, what advice would you give to fresh law graduates who are about to embark on their legal careers, especially those interested in working in-house within corporate legal departments?
In corporate you need to have Business Acumen, understanding the broader business context, including financial implications, risk management and strategic decision-making. You also need meaningful collaboration. Start your journey being a generalist and then move to specialist. And keep enrolling to new courses/programs.
Can you share with us your journey of becoming a lawyer, starting from your graduation at NLSIU, Bangalore, to your current role as Managing Partner at Λrgħyä Legal?
My journey as a lawyer began when I joined the prestigious National Law School of India University (NLS), Bangalore in the year 1997. Law school gave me a whole new perspective on life, purpose and law in general. The initial years until graduation was a period of great learning and appreciating the law, legal research and developing an analytical mindset. After graduation, I worked under a few senior counsels as a litigating lawyer in New Delhi being fortunate enough to be practising in various courts like DRT, Tis Hazari, Patiala House, High Court and Supreme Court. This is the phase in my life where I learnt the importance of PERSEVERANCE & RESILIENCE. When your salary is meagre (compared to what your peers earn in a company or law firm) and you need to survive on that, it requires a lot of PERSEVERANCE & RESILIENCE to not give up on your dream.
I transitioned from a litigation lawyer to an associate in a law firm in the year 2006 when I shifted from New Delhi to Bangalore to work with a law firm dealing mostly with foreign clientele wanting to set up business in India. I was fortunate to be a part of the team managing contracts drafting and negotiations, M&A for some well known corporate clients. This experience along with my previous experience as a litigation lawyer helped me to get into Bosch as an inhouse counsel and thus transition myself from a lawyer to a business lawyer. During this phase, I was fortunate to have both local and international exposure on various aspects of business and law in general. This phase was also about understanding and appreciating the importance of forging collaborations, understanding business, numbers, managing stakeholder expectations, managing teams, having the foresight for incoming risks and proactively taking steps to minimise risks.
Finally the culmination of all that I had learned and experienced over the years helped me in pursuing this new phase in my professional career i.e. the setting up of Λrgħyä Legal The firm was set up with the aim of providing affordable and high quality services to select clients. Having been an in-house counsel most of my professional life I am able to understand the pain points/areas of concerns of corporations better and provide solutions which are practical and easy to implement from a business standpoint. Currently the firm’s focus is mostly on assisting in house counsels with the day to day issues, mergers and acquisitions, secretarial assistance and compliance training.
With your extensive experience in various industries like healthcare, e-commerce, and IT, what motivated you to pursue a career in law, particularly in corporate and regulatory aspects?
Few factors that contributed to my decision to join NLS and pursue a career in law. The desire to move out of Guwahati to broaden my horizon in life in general and to join a professional course which was equally relevant as that of medical and engineering courses. I was very fortunate to be a part of this prestigious institution. NLS helped bring in a lot of maturity and clarity in my thoughts so once I graduated I had a clear roadmap in mind. Although someday I wanted to be an inhouse counsel, I first wanted to understand law and its nuances and see how it’s actually dealt with by courts, then law firms and finally settling down as an inhouse counsel. These experiences help me immensely while dealing with complex and critical situations which require strategic thinking.
Coming to the question of why I focus particularly in the area of corporate and regulatory aspect. Well I would say although these two aspects are very important, it would not be the only ones that I would need to look at if I am an in house counsel in a leadership position. One has to remember that the role of an inhouse legal counsel is about being a generalist in law, being foresighted, proactive, collaborative, approachable and generally having an idea about every aspect of law which applies to the organisation. You are the first line of defence and your internal stakeholders will look to you for answers and solutions. So I would say I am a generalist whose job is to maintain a fine balance between compliance of law while facilitating smooth business transactions. I have been really fortunate to be a part of multinational organisations which exposed me to a whole gamut of issues on various aspects of law which were really complex and some of them even path breaking, both nationally and internationally. Such experience has enabled me handle complex issues with poise and maturity.
You’ve held significant positions in both multinational corporations like Bosch and Essilor, as well as in consulting roles. How have these diverse experiences shaped your approach to legal counsel and leadership?
Experience does matter and as a lawyer, I have been really fortunate to have worked with great senior counsels, being part of great teams at various law firms and finally exposed to a whole gamut of critical issues in a corporate world mostly in the IT and manufacturing side ranging from labour issues, product issues, litigation, M&A, compliance etc. After more than two decades of being in the profession, each stage of my career has taught me something new which I would not have been privy to or learnt had I continued in just one field and not delved into others. I can safely say I have seen it all but of course with the humility to state that the learning never stops and I still think of myself as a student who has the courage and conviction to unlearn and learn if required.
These past experiences of what it takes to drive business has an effect on how I counsel my clients today. I look at the business and then apply law to see to what extent I can stretch my risks. Years of experience helps in a way to already visualise consequences. Hence, every suggestion or an opinion given to clients is based on their business need and practicality within the ambit of the permissible laws. One size may not fit everyone so one has to be agile, quick and flexible to innovate. For example, I will never advise anyone to go in for litigation as a first step in a dispute situation. It should be the last resort and one needs to understand that the cost of litigation could dent a company’s bottom line. During my stint as a General Counsel I have facilitated many negotiations and saved huge litigation costs to the companies I was associated with.
As someone who’s been recognized for achievements such as “General Counsel of the Year – Healthcare,” what are some of the key challenges you’ve faced as a first-generation lawyer, and how did you overcome them?
Challenge is a perception and quite subjective. I always saw opportunities in everything that came my way and grabbed them to make a mark. There is also no alternative to hard work. Challenges are always present in life and we have to figure out a way to navigate through these challenges. Everyday something new happens which we may not comprehend nor anticipate and that is what keeps us going. Life without it will be very boring.
I was never really dependent only on people teaching and guiding me to learn new things. Of course its importance can never be negated. However, I realised early in life to learn from experiences around me by myself as well. Time is always of the essence and sometimes you miss the bus. During one farewell, the managing director of the company asked me what I would have done differently or changed if I had the opportunity to go back in time. I replied saying none. They were valuable experiences and if I had not encountered them then I would have never learnt. Learning is not only about law, at a leadership level it is about how much you understand the business of your organisation, it is about managing people, managing expectations of your stakeholders, maintaining a fine balance between compliance and business, learning leadership skills etc. This attitude helped me rise the corporate ladder faster and become the general counsel of a listed company at a very early age where I also had to lead cross functional peers who were double my age and experience.
In your roles at Flipkart and Walmart, you managed legal aspects of B2B wholesale business. Could you elaborate on the complexities and nuances you encountered in navigating regulatory landscapes in the e-commerce sector?
I will answer this question in a more generic manner rather than answering specifically with regard to my stint at Flipkart as it applies in general with every organisation in the B2B e-commerce sector. Although regulated, it is not as stringent as the B2C ecommerce sector. Nonetheless, one cannot deny the fact that compliance of the applicable regulations is very important and in order to ensure compliance we need to understand the current gaps and that is only possible through regular interactions with internal stakeholders to understand how the business is being driven. Only once you understand what is currently in place can you strategize on whether any alignment or realignment has to be undertaken. Further, there are also changes in certain areas of law or process which are constant in the B2B sector. Most of the time you will see clarifications and circulars issued by the government under FSSAI, ISI or Legal Metrology or CDSCO on a regular basis. Sometimes interpretation of such changes becomes an issue as they could be interpreted in more than one way and this is where we need to step in to reach out to the right authorities and conclude on the correct interpretation. Likewise we also need to reach out to relevant authorities and advocate for change whenever we find new changes in law detrimental to our business interest. In general I would say in today’s fast paced business and cut-throat competition, agility and quick decision making is critical to the success of a business. Our role as in house counsels is to push the limits of permissible law and guide our business to take difficult decisions by explaining possible risk scenarios.
You’ve been involved in various legal domains such as M&A, compliance, and litigation management. How do you stay updated on legal developments, and how do you integrate these insights into your strategic advice for businesses?
Overall there are a few things which we need to keep in mind as in inhouse counsel. Firstly understanding the law enables me to visualise consequences and such awareness enables me to guide internal clients in the right direction. Hence, having a proactive mindset to look out for new changes in law and how it is going to affect your organisation’s business and ensure mitigation measures well in advance by working with business colleagues to ensure smooth transition is key. I strive to continuously read and research on relevant and complex legislations/ provisions of law to ensure that I get the required clarity of its nuances from the perspective of courts/case law to not only properly guide and advice clients but also to be able to successfully provide alternatives during negotiations. Sometimes a simple oversight could cost a lot for your clients. Therefore, it is important to have an eye for detail and the patience to read every line and use one’s analytical skills to question whether what one is looking at really applies to the current situation or not.
What is the story behind starting Λrgħyä Legal and embarking on a new chapter in your life. Many would see this as a huge risk stepping out of the comfort of a stable job and a successful career.
I always had a desire of exploring and stepping out of my comfort zone to try something of my own. After a lot of thought and deliberation with my family, my peers in the industry from whom I found acceptance in the concept of our firm, I finally decided that it is about time I pursued this passion. Having spent more than two decades as a lawyer and most of part of that career as an inhouse counsel with various multinational companies gave me great insights into the various nuances/complexities of managing an inhouse team, budget constraints, work pressure and impossible timelines. It is very difficult most of the time for in-house counsels to manage/outsource work due to the high cost of legal services. I understand that very well being in that situation myself and feeling helpless. Hence, Λrgħyä Legal was born in the month of August, 2023 with the aim of addressing such issue and coming up with affordable services without compromising on quality. Λrgħyä Legal strives to foster partnership and lasting relationship with our clients rather than just mere commercial transaction.
Λrgħyä in Sanskrit means “Sacred Offering”. Λrgħyä Legal was set up keeping in mind the four principles: (a) Availability; (b) Affordability; (c) Quality; (d) Integrity. We collaborate with in house counsels and work on various models which helps in (i) outsourcing at affordable rates (ii) continuity of work during headcount reduction or headcount freeze (iii) managing critical manpower and reducing headcount costs and (iv) enabling ample time to the in house counsels to focus on critical issues and (v) assisting organisation to implement compliance trainings on various legal topics. Currently the firm’s focus is mostly on assisting in house counsels with the day to day issues, mergers and acquisitions, secretarial assistance and compliance training.
Lastly, given your wealth of experience, what advice would you offer to fresh law graduates aspiring to pursue a career similar to yours, particularly in corporate law and regulatory compliance?
In general, all I can say is no matter what one does, they should do it with complete dedication. Patience, Perseverance and Resilience is key to any successful career. There are no shortcuts to success. Do not be in a hurry to move on to new things without mastering what you are currently doing.
Ma’am, can you tell us about your journey and how you ended up pursuing a career in law, particularly in the corporate and commercial sector?
I was born and raised in Pune for the most part. Law just happened – I guess I owe it to the great institution in Pune – ILS Law College. I pursued CS and piano from Trinity College, London through school and college.
Through college years, I kept hearing that the legal profession is not for Pune, unless you know the local language well and want to pursue real estate law. I had an interest in business laws and had my eyes set on corporate. Bajaj Allianz was my first corporate job and after that, I moved to Suzlon Energy Limited at their corporate headquarters in Pune.
In the formative years of my career, I focussed on contracts, business risks and mitigation, and learnt that the key to understanding and working on a transaction is to “join the dots” factually and legally. Being in an in-house role, one can contribute effectively as a lawyer, once you understand the business. I worked extensively with cross functional teams and gained experience across the entire wind and solar industry value chain – right from IPR to supply chain management to project sales and execution, operations and maintenance. I also had the opportunity to work on some great corporate and cross border transactions and worked with some great professionals across the renewable industry as well as law firms.
With over 16 years of experience in law firms and in-house roles, what have been the highlights of your career so far? Could you share some key assignments or projects that you have worked on?
Well, there are many such assignments, but to name a few that come to my mind right now – once I was negotiating a supply contract with a supplier in Germany. Their lawyer refused to reason on any point, since he came with a “legal rule book”. There was no ability to negotiate with the lawyer at all, and the next round of negotiations happened with their business team – and we had very constructive discussions thereafter. This is why I always feel that we can’t just be lawyers without a business understanding, as it’s not efficient at all. I also enjoyed discussing litigation strategy with international counsels and negotiating settlements for the company. One of my most exciting negotiations was with a Spanish entity who didn’t understand a word of English. I was representing an entity that couldn’t fulfil their contractual obligations due to business constraints. We used a translator and hours of discussions later we settled a 12 Million Euro claim for a small percentage of it! I also enjoy working on renewable energy project contracts, as one has to factor in various dynamics of these vast projects, bearing in mind their long term impacts.
You have cross-border exposure in various regions such as Europe, USA, UK, Brazil, Middle East, South Africa, Australia, Israel, and Southeast Asia. How has this global exposure influenced your approach to practicing law, and what challenges and opportunities have you encountered while working across different jurisdictions?
Suzlon gave me a great global exposure, especially in dispute resolution and contract negotiations. It is important to understand the business dynamics, as it helps in negotiating contracts effectively as well as supporting litigations wearing the business-legal hat. This also helped me to achieve many settlements of cross border disputes amicably.
2 years into my professional career, I began travelling abroad and worked across Germany, Netherlands, Spain, UK, USA, Dubai and Singapore to negotiate transactions and support litigation, working with law firms across these regions. As a young lawyer this certainly does give you a high! Working with in-house counsels and law firms across the world also helped me improve my standards and quality of drafting and understanding of various cross border laws and their implications in the Indian context. I also really enjoyed traveling so there was overall learning and professional development on many fronts.
What made you move from an in-house counsel to a law firm in Pune?
Having worked for over 10 years as an in-house counsel, we would keep approaching laws firms outside of Pune for legal support. There seemed to be a void for good corporate law firms in Pune. Back in 2017, Pune corporates were expanding, the IT business was thriving, manufacturing set up was expanding in and around Pune, many foreign companies were setting up shop in Pune and the foreign investments were certainly boosting Pune’s economy. This is what made me explore opportunities to set up a law firm practice in Pune, and I soon joined Solomon & Co., to set up their Pune practice.
What according to you is the difference between an in-house legal role and law firm experience?
Work wise, we had quite an extensive and in-depth approach to transactions even as an in-house counsel, so transitioning to a law firm wasn’t tough in that sense. What was challenging was developing the practice, in a city like Pune where people were either accustomed to not working with lawyers at all (unless there was a dispute) to only working with Tier A firms for corporate transactions.
Persistence paid and our first retainer mandate was a huge celebration indeed. The second biggest success was when we achieved our targets in Pune the first time.! It was indeed recognition for our hard work, perseverance and the trust our valued clients had instilled in us. It has been over 5 years since we set up the Pune office, and I can say that I have been able to successfully develop a strong corporate and commercial practice in Pune, focusing on corporate advisory, M&A, private equity, joint ventures, collaborations, inbound and outbound investments and commercial contracts. Additionally, as a renewable energy lawyer, I have been supporting several renewable energy companies for Project contracts, procurement and consultancy agreements and technology collaborations for wind and solar energy. So, while we don’t focus on any particular industry as such, being in Pune I have been able to develop a strong practice in the renewable energy and automotive sector, and have been working closely with several renowned corporates in Pune.
As a result-driven individual with strong interpersonal skills, communication abilities, and positive work ethics, how do these qualities contribute to your success as a lawyer? How do you leverage these skills to build relationships with clients and achieve their objectives effectively?
I would say that these qualities are very important to be a sound professional. While building the practice in Pune, as much as I was representing the brand of the law firm, I was also representing myself as a brand. This meant that only did I have to go all out to pitch for work, but follow it up by delivering a good work product. I have been consistently supported by a great team of talented lawyers here in Pune, and have tried to imbibe similar qualities in each of them. After all, if the quality of your work is good, you build credibility with your clients, and build your practice at a consistent pace. I guess this has been the driving force behind our growth story!
Lastly, based on your experience and insights gained throughout your career, what advice would you give to fresh graduates or aspiring lawyers who are just starting their journey in the legal field, especially in the corporate and commercial sector?
I feel that young professionals nowadays are very creative and confident, but along with that, I would say the ability to focus and be diligent with each assignment – however small or big it may be, is extremely important. Additionally, for lawyers, the way to provide sound legal advice to my mind is – reading every contract, case or transaction document in detail along with the law and business requirements.
My dad is a retired army officer and he taught me the “never say never attitude”. I learnt from him that hard work and maintaining relationships and goodwill is the key to success! And my mum taught me the important quality of “humility”. These value systems have guided me throughout my career, to tell a tale of perseverance, patience and hard work. My professional stints have been long term and stable, as success to me is beyond the numbers.
To the young ones, I’d finally say that the number game is definitely tempting, but it all falls in place at the right time if you have a diligent and persevering outlook. Like they say, “great things come from hard work and perseverance”. There are no shortcuts to success!
What inspired you to choose law as a career? How has been the decision so far?
My journey to choose law as a career dates back to the day when I accidentally met a judicial officer at one of my relative’s place. After interacting with him, I was fascinated by his personality and his love for the law. Immediately thereafter, out of curiosity, I researched about law. In great part, I wholeheartedly thank my mother, who motivated me to pursue law. Over the past few years, I gained first-hand experience by witnessing various court proceedings, which improved my procedural knowledge of the law hence, my overall journey has been incredible.
What were the challenges that you faced in the beginning of your career?
The insurmountable obstacle at the beginning of my career was my introvert nature. I overcame this by watching Suits, the famous American Legal Drama Television series. Another impediment was that I am a first generation lawyer with no Godfather in the profession. I overcame this by being consistent in my efforts. I sincerely believe that dedication and constant efforts are stepping stones towards success, hence, I ensured that I learn atleast one lesson of life/ practical application of law every day without losing hopes.
How do you handle ethical dilemmas that may arise in your work? Could you highlight some ways to tackle the same?
Answer – In order to address ethical dilemmas that arise at work place, I preach the principle of dispute avoidance. Ethical dilemmas occur in all facets of life and I believe it is essential to address them at a nascent stage so that majority of conflicts can be avoided. It is crucial to separate yourself from the problem and act neutrally.
We lawyers do a lot of research in making our cases but the majority of the time, when an ethical dilemma comes, we skip the critical thinking and rush to make the judgment call. It is only at a later stage that we realise about the damage that has been done and that’s when we do the damage control exercise. However, if we look upon situations of ethical dilemma from a bird’s eye view, we can be a step ahead and act rationally.
Ethical dilemma should not always been seen as something that brings negativity. It is a way to come up with more meaningful realizations.
How far do you see the importance of Client Counselling?
The importance of Client Counselling can be better understood by the quote from Lois McMaster Bujold – “The dead cannot cry out for justice, it is the duty of the living to do so for them”. Client counselling is an art that we, as lawyers learn as and when we interact with aggrieved litigants. When an aggrieved person approaches a lawyer and starts narrating their dispute, it is important for a lawyer to identify and segregate the who, what, when, where and simplify the dispute redressal mechanism for the Client.
The Lawyer should listen to the Client without any mind-chatter and give their undivided attention to the Client. A good lawyer, by good counselling will always be able to get the best relief for their Client. Efficiently communicating with the Client is the bread and butter of a lawyer and it is important that the lawyers don’t think of the Client as a money-minting machine. While interacting with the Clients, we often have to wear the hats of a psychologist, while being in the shoes of a lawyer. Focus should be upon building connections with the Client, money will follow. Be like Harvey Spector from Suits, care for your Client and settle their disputes – be the best god-damn ‘Closer’.
Aarzu, do you believe that somewhere the craze for litigation has been vanishing lately due to job security in corporate?
Yes, I agree with you. Young lawyers don’t wish to continue into litigation for two main reasons, first and foremost, litigation is less rewarding in the initial years, not many seniors in the profession give good pay to sustain the expenses. Secondly and most importantly, one has to devote a lot of time in litigation as the incubation time for litigation is more as compared to corporate jobs in the legal fraternity.
To quote Justice Joseph Story – “the law is a jealous mistress and requires long and constant courtship. It is not to be won by trifling favours, but by lavish homage”. Many young lawyers enter into the litigation entirely blinded by the charm of black coat and white collar band. However, the bitter reality is that more than 70% of young lawyers who enter into litigation, filled with confidence either leave or plan to leave litigation. Some of them have genuine responsibilities of family, others who are afraid to burn the midnight oil – leave litigation in peer pressure seeing their fellow friends earn good in corporate. Now, in litigation we are experiencing brain-drain. Hard-working and intelligent lawyers are leaving litigation to enter into the corporate arena.
Our audience knows a little about commercial agreements, also is there a whole bunch of work in that segment, how interesting is that for any corporate lawyer?
Commercial Agreements are fascinating to work in. Drafting of these Agreements commence at the stage when parties are negotiating, if the terms between the parties are not negotiated properly or when there is a grey area, the parties end up knocking the doors of the Courts. One must make the Agreements/ Contracts diligently after understanding the fulcrum of issues between the parties and must always identify the deal breakers.
A good lawyer knows how to draft an air-tight contract, keeping in mind the intent of parties and leaves no grey area in it. One should draft well-articulated Contracts like Louis from Suits. He always captured the imagination and intent of the parties and drafted rock-solid contracts protecting the interest of his Clients .
Between arbitration, contracts and agreements, liasoning, and civil matters, which sector will have more opportunities in coming times for lawyers?
Human conflicts are relentless, so disputes are inescapable. Hence all the sectors will have nearly equal opportunities for lawyers in the coming times. However, the Indian Legal System is well known for delay in adjudication. It is a conventional fact that the Hon’ble Courts are over-burdened with pending cases and it is almost impossible to provide quick and efficient relief to the aggrieved parties, Alternate Dispute Resolution in India is an endeavour made by the legislators to attain the Constitutional Goal of achieving complete justice in India.
In today’s era, we can see a constant increase in people resorting to various ways of Alternative Dispute Redressal Mechanism for resolving their disputes amicably. Even the intention of the legislature is to resolve the disputes amongst the parties. At any stage if the Hon’ble Court witnesses a chance of settlement amongst the parties, the matter is referred to any of the alternative ways of dispute redressal mechanisms i.e. Arbitration, Mediation, Conciliation, Negotiation or Judicial Settlement by Lok Adalat for speedy redressal.
In many cases it is even mandatory to refer to any of these alternative ways of dispute redressal mechanisms at the pre litigation stage. For example, Section 12 – A of the Commercial Courts Act envisages a mandatory reference to mediation to attempt to resolve the disputes out of the court before a suit can be instituted. I am of the opinion that Arbitration sector will have more opportunities in the coming times.
Talking about work-life balance, there has been ample amount of discussion on health issues as a lawyer, what do you believe are the best practices to maintain the equilibrium?
I sincerely believe that a good laugh and 7 – hours of sleep is the best practice to maintain the equilibrium. However, people in the legal fraternity have a habit of overworking. Life is all about balance. One should know when to stop. If we keep on working in a monotonous routine, then we would not be able to perform efficiently and effectively in the long run.
Apart from doing regular exercise and maintaining a healthy lifestyle, we need to find a hobby. Our profession is significantly serious in nature, if we don’t enjoy the journey, we will not have much good memories to share 5 years down the lane. Mind is the greatest asset for a lawyer and its important that we must find solace in our professional lives. Only then would we be able to enjoy our personal lives and create an actual work-life balance.
Few advices for our young law professionals?
Explore all areas of law before you finally make a judgment call about your niche practice.
Stop thinking about the opinion of the world, it’s all in your head and focus upon improving the quality of your work.
It will not be easy. Grab every opportunity that you get. If that opportunity is not given to you, go and ask for it. Do not give up. It will be worth it.
Let’s start with a cliché, why did you decide upon law as your career? Happy accident or predetermined plan?
The career choice for me was probably a mix of a predetermined plan and my own interests as I was growing up. In school, my interest always peaked in Social Science subjects. Reading about the freedom struggle in history, the state of our community and how it functions in Civics and Political Science, especially the entire phase of the drafting of the Indian Constitution was highly intriguing.
The constituent assembly debates were a pleasure to explore and the opportunity to have a glance into the lawmakers’ thought processes at the time, to construct laws that stand relevant even to this day and probably for many more in the future, was inspiring. Understanding the interpretations and the multiple perspectives which can be present for a single phrase of legislation was absolutely addictive, and I think the decision was made right there. Add to that the ever involving nature of law where it always keeps you on your toes is great I think. You can’t get lazy.
That, supplemented by a background of law in the family, was a heavily contributing factor in the career choice. My great grandfather was a well-respected lawyer even during the British era and my Nanaji was a judge as well as a lawyer. Their stories and experiences narrated to me by my parents are etched in my memory and they became my career role models.
But I think one ironic trait I have as a lawyer is that I always hated reading a lot, so that part of my personality probably did not make the career call.
You have been part of the esteemed Law Schools of India, NALSAR University for your bachelor’s degree, and NLSIU, where you are currently pursuing an MBL Degree, i.e., Masters in Business Law. How would you describe your Law School days?
Law school was an enlightening experience. I knew that I wanted to pursue law as a career but it was only after going through law school that I got a firm reason as to why. Law school was a humbling and highly educational experience and I do not mean only in terms of learning the law.
I learnt life lessons during law school, through experiences which were both great and some not so great. Just by living life with my batch mates and other members of the NALSAR community, I was exposed to a range of different experiences, thoughts, issues and perspectives which I think was instrumental in shaping me to be the individual I am today. I not only learned how to be a good lawyer at NALSAR but also how to be an open-minded and strong individual. Law school taught me to be open to opinions and shape them after considering all perspectives rather than be stubborn and just maintain the stand on what you believe with no recourse.
Other than that, it was an absolute blast to stay in the hostel and conjure up some of the best memories of my life, be it the lifelong friendships I have built or the probably insane activities we participated in sometimes. The madness of law school academics was always nicely supplemented by old school fun. I have a rather distinct memory of our entire boy’s hostel preparing for an all-night barbeque party which was made possible by the base stands of water coolers, steel mesh purchased from the village near NALSAR and groceries ordered through our mess representatives. It was a night of good food, blasting music and plain and simple fun. Memories which cannot be replaced.
Law is an ever-evolving profession and it was with this in mind that I joined the MBL degree at NLSIU as part of their distance learning programme. I think it has helped me to touch base with core concepts of law again and also learn the present-day evolution of the understanding of those concepts. It has been an enlightening experience so far and I look forward to completing this journey as well next year.
Your professional journey started with working at Khaitan, where you worked on Private Equity, M&A and VC transactions. What was your overall law firm experience like?
The law firm experience was incredible for me. I won’t be lying when I say that after I joined Khaitan, in my head I knew the objective was to make it as a Partner in the firm and serve out my service years there completely. The people were incredible. My true mentors in the profession have to be all my colleagues and seniors with whom I worked in Khaitan. The work was of the highest quality and professionalism was at its best. The Khaitan team is where I learnt what it means to be a ‘professional’ and the honesty and integrity that should come along with it.
Yes, there was a lot of work going into a fair number of days with long hours but when the people you’re working with are amazing, the long hours are also quite fun. I have learned immensely with the members of Khaitan and am truly grateful to Khaitan for being the stepping stones to any success I have today, it would not be possible without them. The exposure to how the law works in the real world was shown to me by Khaitan and the opportunities provided to learn from the best within the firm and from outside through other firms or clients in multiple transactions was an amazing experience.
Even after moving on from Khaitan, I am a proud Khaitan alumnus and they actually do have a newsletter which is sent out to all their ex-members as well to keep you apprised of what is happening. Ex colleagues are still great friends and mentors and you may have heard the famous quote in Harry Potter which states ‘Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it’, this statement stays true for Khaitan as well.
You made a switch to an in-house role by joining Scripbox, which is a fintech company based out in Bengaluru. What made you decide on switching to an in-house role?
I think this decision was purely based on the sheer curiosity of what lay on the other side of the fence. While I was part of several large ticket PE and M&A transactions at Khaitan, I was always left curious as to the impact any transaction made on the day to day functioning of the clients. For example, we would have probably closed a 100 million USD funding round but the execution and money transfer were the final destination for me as a law firm lawyer.
The ins and outs of how a business works and how such transactions impact the business on a daily basis were where my curiosity always lay.
And in my view, satiations of curiosity at an early stage of your career is a must to ensure there are no regrets at a later stage in life where you are stuck with the age-old thought of ‘ Should I have done that?’.
What are some of the challenges you believe an in-house counsel faces and how should the upcoming professionals prepare themselves for these?
The primary challenge which I faced moving in-house was the difficulty in blending legal advice with business goals. If I talk specifically about the fintech field, it is a heavily regulated space and as the name suggests it’s all about technology and providing access to financial products digitally.
But to advise on compliance for the business would necessarily involve understanding how the business works and that means not only from a theoretical angle but also the ground realities of how a product functions. You have to understand each step of the entire product as a legal and compliance professional so that when a regulation, circular or any guidelines of any sort come up, you are immediately aware of whether any part of the business is impacted by it.
This involved learning a little of everything within the organisation, product, tech, operations, customer service, data privacy, labour laws for the employee-related aspects and of course your basics of contracts continue. You also need a deep understanding of the business strategy and the plan ahead by the management so you can be a productive participant in the discussions. It’s an all-around role and just being a lawyer is not helpful.
Another major challenge in today’s industry is to change the perception of lawyers. You will always see that the compliance and legal teams are viewed as blockers in the business industry and they just have to deal with them because they have to and more often than not, they are disappointed by going to them. The requirement of creating a good relationship with all stakeholders within a company, educating them on why you provide a certain view and rather than being a blocker, working with them to create a workable solution for what they are wanting to achieve is exceptionally challenging.
The only way to prepare for this I think is to go in head first and attempt it. Having an open mind and not being stubborn about your own thinking is always good. Having an open mind, leading discussions and collectively coming to decisions with logic and as a team will be helpful. Teamwork and a sense of ownership towards meeting the goals of the organisation as a whole are key to success in an organisation. Making yourself useful by providing valuable inputs not only as a lawyer but as a customer of the business or the users of the business or as a product manager thinking of how something needs to be made, what issues need to be solved – that is gold in an organisation.
You are currently working for Wint Wealth which is an upcoming Startup in the fintech space, as the Chief Compliance and Legal Officer (CCO). We’d love to know more about the organisation and your role in it.
Wint Wealth is an exciting platform democratising debt investments in India by offering an alternative investment platform towards fixed income high return assets in India and is a unique platform in the Indian finance ecosystem providing the average retail investor with a great short term alternative debt investment product with fixed and high returns.
The team at Wint Wealth is young and driven, striving to provide the best experience to its customers. We like to think of ourselves first as educators, attempting to create maximum awareness among customers about the products we provide access to as well as the other financial products. As the CCO, my responsibility of course includes ensuring that the organisation as a whole remains compliant with the regulations and laws of the land. But as previously mentioned, the job involves understanding the needs of the organisation from within as well as those from the perspective of our customers.
We have always been a customer-first organisation and that involves doing what’s right, being compliant and doing what’s best for the customer. So I do manage and take care of what you would say are the standard lawyer duties of reviewing the various contracts and general compliances of the company. However, a major part of the job is to remain updated on all the moving pieces of the organisation and be involved at all times to enable constant overview, ensuring that any developments being made by the organisation are all within the purview of the law and are for the benefit of the customer.
A daily effort to remain updated about what’s happening in the legal and regulatory space is a major part of the job to ensure that any impact on the organisation is identified and actions which may need to be taken are done at the earliest.
Congratulations on winning the Lex Falcon Award in the Lex Talk World Global Conference held in Dubai in February 2022 in the category of Legal (Under 10 years) for impactfully contributing to the legal industry with great knowledge, reach and innovation with a futuristic spirit and approach. Please share your thoughts on receiving such a prestigious award with us.
It is an absolute honour to be recognised by the Lex Talk team. The conference was an amazing experience and an opportunity to interact with colleagues from India and other countries as well and a great learning experience.
The feeling of receiving the award was absolutely overwhelming and provides encouragement to lawyers like me to continue what we are doing and strive for excellence in what we do. Accepting an award in front of colleagues from the legal fraternity, many of whom are close friends, is always something to cherish.
The fintech industry provides a massive opportunity for legal innovation and an opportunity to reach the masses and finance is for every individual and organisation. It is a tough and arduous role to play balancing the legal needs and customer needs necessitating innovation in the way one looks at law. Recognition for playing an active part in this proposition of innovation is very satisfying and validation of the good work that the fraternity is doing in this field.
Finally, what would you advise an upcoming professional who is confused between a law firm role and an in-house role?
I think the answer to this question cannot be black and white, as with any legal issue. It is highly subjective depending on the individual and their personality. As we propagate in the financial world, the identification of goals is of utmost importance to plan well and take apt decisions.
In my view, one must utilise their internships throughout the law school phase to get an understanding of what they are enjoying. Supplement that by actual experience in the real world after being employed by either a firm or in-house – one can learn what they enjoy doing. It’s a cliché line, but you must do what you enjoy the most. Maybe your two options may not include what you enjoy most, but what you enjoy more is always something you know. I probably enjoy cricket the most, but we all know that’s probably not the best career choice in India, especially at present.
Never hesitate to take a leap of faith and try something different. But a calculated risk must also be taken. In my opinion, taking these leaps of faith early on in one’s career is helpful as it will help you gain the clarity you need for your future path very quickly. However, if you are enjoying what you do, then there is no necessity to try something different just for the sake of doing so.
Tell us about yourself – Why did you choose law? If not law, what other career options would you have considered?
A Law of Torts book had accidentally fallen in my hands when I was in class 11th. The fact that this field required application and interpretation of existing legal principles appealed to me. Since then, I wanted to pursue my higher studies and profession as a lawyer. If not law, then I would have been a journalist or an author. I love to write and would have enjoyed merging my passion with my profession.
You were amongst the first batch of students that took the AILET Examinations and you stood at 16th in the All India Ranking. Could you tell us a bit about how you managed to secure such a good ranking and about your experience studying at the prestigious National Law University of Delhi?
I think the key to securing a good rank in any competitive examination lies in solving as many mock tests as possible. No matter how well you are prepared, what matters, in the end, is how well you did in the limited time that was given to you on the particular day of the exam. To bridge the gap between well-prepared and best-prepared, one should try simulated test-taking. It not only increases the confidence but also assesses the level of your preparedness.
National Law University, Delhi laid the foundation for my professional career. The academic pedagogy and the vibrant culture led to holistic development. Located in Delhi, it played a major role in being able to intern even during college days. It is the bedrock of not only my development as a lawyer but also who I am as a person today.
You have been Course Content Curator, Legal Editor, and Research Consultants to many firms and Organisations. You were also the Research Lead at WHO Legal Development Program in India. It would not be wrong to denote you as a Scholar. Can you tell us what about Research kept you going?
I am extremely passionate about both writing and law. There was nothing better than merging both my passions together and hence, I commenced my journey as legal research professional. During the initial years of my legal consultancy career, I exclusively worked on legal content creation and knowledge management assignments. I served as an external Knowledge Management Consultant to AZB and Partners and was also the Research Lead for the WHO Legal Development Programme for Road Safety in India.
The way research is conceptualized commonly tends to be more theoretical than practical. However, it was the latter aspect of the same that caught my fancy. For instance, while everyone knows what a force majeure clause is, it is its application that is rarely been written about. It was the application of legal concepts that I wanted to discuss rather than the theoretical underpinnings. A reflection of this fascination with the practical perspective of legal research can still be seen on the blog of my firm, Remote Lawyer.
You have studied at National Law University, Delhi, and completed your Masters at the National University of Singapore in Corporate and Financial Services Law. What difference did you find in the Pedagogy in Indian Schools and abroad?
One key difference is that schools abroad focus more on understanding than rote learning. For instance, there were many occasions at the National University of Singapore, wherein we had open-book exams, take-home exams, etc. which tested a person’s ability to understand and apply the legal concept rather than reproduce the theory around the same. Another important difference I found was the focus on in-depth legal research. The research papers were thoroughly vetted and the faculty was always looking for an element of originality.
What was that one learning experience in your entire career trajectory that you’d credit to have shaped your career and your role as the Founder of “Remote Lawyer”?
I left a plum middle management job at a multi-national company to start my career as an independent legal consultant in 2018 and the rest is history. My stint as an independent legal consultant taught me more about the legal profession and the field of law than any organized institution would ever have. Experience is the best teacher. When you do not have anyone to correct your mistakes, you start becoming more careful. When you have to solicit clients on your own, you automatically shed the shell of an introvert and learn how to network. It was my 2.5 years as an independent legal consultant that gave me the confidence that I can set up an organization all on my own. It taught me how one can create value in oneself.
Can you walk us through a day in your life? What is the life of a Founder of an Online Legal Consultancy Firm like?
Managing a virtual legal consultancy, such as Remote Lawyer, with a diverse clientele from varied sectors and different time zones, requires meticulous planning ahead of each day. Before I end work for the day, I create a To-Do list for the next day. Every morning, I review this To-Do list along with the corresponding deadlines and plan accordingly. A typical workday consists of reviewing and drafting agreements, drafting notices and opinions, attending negotiations and client calls. I also run a YouTube channel by the name Remote Lawyer and make it a point to create content for the same, at least once every two weeks. It is a part of my commitment to give back what I have learned to the legal fraternity. Along with client assignments, I also make it a point to take out time to curate content for the blog of my website, at least once a week.
It is now close to a decade that you’ve been a part of the legal fraternity. What do you think is the difference between the law profession right now and the profession a decade back? And, what all changes would you like to see in our Indian Law Profession?
A decade back, the very concept of a virtual legal consultancy would have been unheard of. The fact that legal services can be delivered right in your inbox, without the need for you to meet your lawyer, would have been an unthinkable idea back then. The legal profession today demands change and transition from the traditional to the modern. The fact that legal tech is booming and growing and there are so many software technologies that assist us lawyers in our day-to-day life shows that we need to adopt new technological advances. The subject matter we deal with every day is also fluid. Fintech and Information Technology laws, cryptocurrencies, NFTs, etc. are novel concepts and lawyers need to keep pace with the changing legal landscape.
Lastly, is there any suggestion or advice that you’d like to give to our readers?
I have always felt that creating value in oneself is extremely important. From a young age itself, try to become that resource that every company and firm wants to hire. Be meticulous in what you do. Question everything and accept nothing without supporting evidence. And most importantly, focus on application rather than rote learning. Knowing what the law is will help you to a certain extent, but understanding and applying that law in a way that helps your client is what will enable you to leave your mark as a successful lawyer.
How smooth is it to be an in-house counsel? Or is it the other way round?
In my view, neither the in-house counsel role nor the law firm role is completely devoid of challenges and hurdles. Having been a part of both legal worlds I can safely state that each role comes with its own set of challenges and privileges.
However, it is extremely incorrect to assume that in-house counsels are just “glorified paper-pushers”. There is a lot of responsibility that comes attached to an in-house role. When you hire an external law firm, its role and liability are limited to the ‘scope of work’ and ‘exclusion’ clauses elucidated in its engagement letter. My employment contract as an in-house counsel is devoid of any such sections. The legal liability of the organisation/transaction rests on your shoulders; even simple human errors can sometimes cause you sleepless nights due to the potential repercussions they may have. Even if you hire an external counsel, they have limitations either on bandwidth or the complete know-how regarding the commercial dynamics of the deal. There are many matters which are done/resolved without any external help.
So many assumptions have been made over the years regarding my move to an in-house role; that I left the law firm life “to retire”. With quality legal work coming my way at Eight Roads, I feel anything but retired. I can say that the work of an in-house counsel is exciting as well as challenging. Unfortunately, in-house roles are not always given due recognition or respect.
People may have come across some in-house lawyers who may take their role lightly but people equally come across some law-firm counsels who may shirk responsibility. I believe that the generalization of any work role — legal or otherwise, is unfair; it’s honestly up to each individual on how they want to make the best use of the opportunity they have been presented with. I truly hope I am!
You worked in the most renowned law firms like Cyril Amarchand Mangaldas & Khaitan & Co for about 5 years and now working as a Senior Legal Counsel with Eight Roads Ventures (an international VC/PE firm). What major changes have you found in the working approach between the three?
It was an absolute honour to start my career with the likes of Cyril Amarchand Mangaldas and Khaitan. Both the firms are filled with some of the most reputed lawyers, and I had the chance to train under some of the very best.
As a junior, I had the opportunity to work on some complex, high-stake transactions; and even if I wasn’t lead counsel, I got to do the groundwork, research on obscure legal points, and observe and learn from all parties involved.
As the years progressed, so did my responsibilities, direct exposure to clients, and the learning curve was steep. However, as a part of a law firm, my daily work interactions were primarily with other lawyers. While it is the best way to garner more legal knowledge and stay abreast with the constant change in-laws, it also limited my views on how the corporate world truly applied our legal advice to their business.
Within the Eight Roads ecosystem, I am interacting with persons from different spheres globally — investment, finance, HR, communications, founders, company CFOs and so forth daily.
Listening to their various conversations has given me a better understanding of how businesses operate and how best to curate my legal advice. As an in-house counsel, you don’t work “for” the client but “with” the client. You are part of the same team and are equally responsible alongside the investment members for the success or failure of any investment/project. Knowing the law is important but it is meaningless if not practically applied in any given situation. More often than not, I am aware of the commercial nuances of each deal and this helps me negotiate the key legal points, take commercial calls, and reach a mid-way understanding on other issues. There is a more holistic approach to my legal review which goes beyond just the transaction at hand. While the work of an external counsel ends once we close a deal, my work continues well beyond. I must help maintain ongoing collaborations.
Now we know that you work as a Senior Legal Counsel with Eight Roads Ventures, could you highlight your role in the firm?
The role at Eight Roads is a multi-faceted one. I deal with a range of legal issues right from investment agreements, exit documents, tax matters, confidentiality concerns, debt financing, vendor documents, legal notices, insurance, corporate governance to employment contracts.
As part of the Eight Roads’ Ventures India team (ERVI), I help strategize, negotiate and close investments in the early/growth stages of companies operating in fields of healthcare, technology, consumer, and financial services.
I also play an important role in negotiating and implementing fund exits. The legal work at Eight Roads is not merely transactional but also relates to internal fund compliances and portfolio management. Given that Eight Roads is a part of a global platform, my work goes beyond Indian law issues. I regularly encounter matters concerning international jurisdictions and it is very interesting to compare how people commercially and legally view and assess risks associated with VC/PE deals in different jurisdictions.
ERVI also endorses CSR activities and I am honoured to have been given a chance to spearhead these.
A very important aspect of my role is balancing commercial considerations and relationships with founders/partner companies while ensuring I negotiate in the best legal interests of Eight Roads. Many times, I am also required to chase law firms (sometimes even my ex-peers). There may be some commercial implications, which are highly confidential if a deal does not close within certain timelines.
I often joke with my colleagues that the founders and law firms must equally dislike me! Unfortunately, that is the nature of my job and I can only hope that the industry can know me beyond my in-house counsel role — I am not that bad a person (at least that is my view!). I strive to the best of my ability to be practical under the given circumstances and help cultivate lasting partnerships.
Not many young female lawyers reach the height you achieved, what was the story behind your success? Were you the privileged child or had to dig in deep to quench the thirst?
I was extremely privileged to have loving parents who were supportive of my education and career decisions. Having said that, I am a first-generation practising lawyer in my family and had to find my own feet in the legal profession.
I have no godfather in the legal industry. Before joining the three-year law course in Government Law College, Mumbai (GLC), I had completed my graduation in Mass Media from Jai Hind College. It was an altogether different field.
While many of my media classmates had already secured jobs and earned their first salaries, I was studying hard, with no promise of a job and limited financial means.
During my law school days, it was difficult to secure internships with law firms if you weren’t from an N-law school or had influence with a law firm partner. Having been rejected by several internship programs, I remember wanting to give up on my legal profession dreams. I nevertheless studied hard and made the most of the few internship opportunities I did manage to secure.
My real break came on 22 September 2011 (yes, the date is imprinted in my mind) when I secured a job with the Mumbai office of the then Amarchand Mangaldas through the GLC campus placement program. After all the rejections I had faced till then, I was absolutely over the moon to have been selected by one of the best names in the industry based purely on merit. My years of hard work and my family’s faith in me had finally paid off. I couldn’t wait to treat my family to a lavish dinner with my first salary (it was Konkan Café at the President Hotel — my mother’s favourite). The rest, as they say, is history.
In India, working females still have a responsibility to maintain their household. You are on the next level of achievement, how do you balance your professional and personal life?
A lot is written about working mothers and their struggles (rightfully so!). However, there is an unspoken challenge being faced by many working women in India — balancing professional lives while also being the caregiver of aged parents. With age come many illnesses, and unfortunately, India’s professional caregiver services are very expensive and unreliable. Further, not every Indian woman is a part of a large joint family with several helping hands at home. After everything our parents do for us, we would be unjust in abandoning them in their hours of need. Invariably, the caregiving duties fall on the women of the house.
My mother was extremely ill and constantly in and out of hospitals for about a decade which spanned through my law school and the formative years of my career. At that time, we were not working from home, but I feigned sickness and worked from home, hospital, and everywhere else.
I will not lie that it was a struggle to balance my stressful work hours, caregiving responsibilities, and just finding time to unwind; I came close to having a nervous breakdown. However, with the support of my immediate family members, I dragged myself through the hard times and found normalcy in mundane tasks.
Today work from home has helped me find a better balance between my professional and personal life.
During my mother’s caregiver journey, I rarely asked for help and kept my situation under the wraps at the office to continue with the image of normalcy. I have now learned that it is important to be open about any difficulties you are personally facing and not fear being judged or professionally reprimanded — especially women. Even if people return to their office full time, they should be more than encouraged to seek any assistance if needed. After all, each office colleague also has her/his own family and we can make it a safe working space by supporting each other.
Apart from being suit up, what interests you in your leisure time?
The two things I love the most and help with my stress management — spending time with animals and exercising.
For several years, I have fostered and helped with the adoption of stray animals. In the coronavirus-induced lockdown, stray animals in my locality (and all over India) were cut off from their daily food source and were going hungry. With work from home, I was able to feed and take care of the strays in my area every day. This has now become a part of my routine and I feel incomplete without greeting my furry friends. Lately, I have also been researching animal protection laws (or lack thereof) in India. All life forms need to be equally respected and protected by law. My work and views about speciesism, animal rights, and preserving the natural environment would make for a whole separate interview!
Exercise and the endorphins released as a result have helped me emotionally cope with some of the toughest phases in my life. I would especially recommend it to lawyers; our work can be extremely overwhelming. Physical fitness does not necessarily mean an hour of HIIT session or pumping heavyweights at the gym; it may be a brisk walk for 30 minutes around your colony. If you do not exercise, please do not wait for the New Year or a Monday! Please start slowly and you will notice positive differences — physical and mental.
We found that you are an active social worker. Would you like to mention your beliefs about the same?
Many years ago, I had read a quote by American actor Lily Tomlin which stuck with me — “I always wondered why somebody doesn’t do something about that. Then I realized I was somebody.” It dawned upon me that I had the power to help those in need myself and did not have to wait for NGOs to do the work; NGOs are already inundated with the work pressure.
A small act of compassion can go a long way in improving someone’s life. The act can be as simple as buying Diwali lights and giveaways every year from NGOs instead of an established brand.
As lawyers, we do hold a certain position of power in society and legal aid is one of the most useful services we can offer to non-profits. I have had the privilege of helping a few with their legal affairs; the work is challenging and only improves my legal acumen. There are several causes out there, be it children’s education, women empowerment, poverty, terminal illnesses, environment, and so forth. If each of us picked one cause that we felt passionate about and donated our money and time towards it, our future generations will experience a kinder world.
The covid-19 pandemic was tough for all of us and we can still find its traces now and then. Do you want to suggest anything specific to the readers concerning the same?
Covid-19 has been surreal and its effects devastating globally. Many people have lost livelihoods and many more loved ones. In this light, the pandemic has brought about discussions on an extremely pertinent and unspoken topic in India — grief. The Oxford Learners Dictionary defines grief as “a very sad feeling, especially when somebody dies.” I never felt the need to research the meaning of grief until my mother passed away pre-pandemic pursuant to her illness. To me grief is undefinable.
Fully being aware of my mother’s oncoming death and having mentally prepared for the same, grief took me by surprise after a month of her passing and punched me hard in my gut. I was on my way to the airport for a work trip abroad when it hit me that I will never again receive the hundred “annoying” calls/messages from my mother asking me if I had gone through security, landed safely, had eaten well, and have enough jackets to brace the cold. It was the most damning feeling in the world.
Since then grief continues to hit me in waves, even at some of the most inappropriate occasions with varying intensities. The reason I was so surprised at feeling grief is that none of my close friends or relatives who had lost loved ones ever warned me or confided in me how hard it is to lose someone. Every single person experiences their own, highly curated version of grief, and each version is hard.
While the circumstances are extremely unfortunate, it has been encouraging to see more people come forward and speak about their encounters with grief. Reading other people’s experiences with grief had helped me feel less alone, and I hope to spread more awareness on this issue. In India, Bhavana Issar’s organisation, Caregiver Saathi has created a safe space for family caregivers to exchange stories on caregiving and grief, and I am extremely happy to be associated with it. Mental well-being is necessary to be able to perform well at your job. There is no shame in asking for help. If anything, you will be doing your job and yourself a disservice if you don’t.
Where can we see you in the next 10 years? Are you planning for something big or staying low at the moment?
Hopefully still be alive, healthy and happy — a decade is a long time away! Experience over the years has taught me to take one day at a time. Too many of my plans have been foiled due to unseen circumstances. Then there were plans I never made, and still, life fell into place. I do hope to continue making a positive difference — whether in the lives of animals or human beings (several or even one).
Any career tips to the young minds in the investment sector?
Foremost, I would like to give a general but a very important tip to every young professional out there —please do not compare your career trajectory to others and ever feel less worthy. Yes, it is important to draw inspiration from success stories, but success again is a relative term. Each of us comes from varying backgrounds, societies, support systems (or lack thereof) and we can only try our best.
For young lawyers looking to start/move in-house and particularly enter the investment sector — it is a very exciting space to be in and there is ample opportunity to do good challenging legal work.
Even the pandemic could not dampen the ever-buzzing VC/PE activity in India. India is filled with talented founders and ambitious teams, and it gives great joy to be a small part of this thriving ecosystem. However, move in-house for the right reasons — there is also hard work involved and timelines to meet. Instead of verbose paragraphs, please learn to put legal advice in simpler words. Even I am learning to better my skills every day; learning is a continuous process without an expiration date. Enter the field with an open mind. As stated earlier, in-house is less about interacting with other lawyers and more with persons from different career backgrounds. It is a great opportunity to learn different topics from them while sharing your legal expertise. In the end, find joy in the work you do, and the rest will follow (and if it doesn’t, do not be disheartened, your time will come!).
Having studied BA.LLB at Kurukshetra University, Haryana. Did any particular incident, interest, or influence prompt you to think of pursuing law?
I had my senior secondary education with non-medical subjects. However, it was after I met my brother-in-law (who was a civil judge in Haryana Judicial Services at that point of time), I was motivated to pursue a career in law. Considering my limited exposure during my school days and being a small-town boy, my parents always wanted me to get an education from a nearby college. Therefore, I applied for 5 years integrated law course at Kurukshetra University and got myself enrolled.
While choosing to pursue Masters of Law (LLM) from King’s College, London. What were the factors involved in choosing commercial law for advanced studies?
While pursuing my law in India, I used to work with my father in his manufacturing business in order to manage multiple things, wherein at first instance, I got to know in brief about the understanding of corporate law and its role in the economics of the world. Eventually, I did a couple of internships in a corporate team of law firms, wherein I got a further understanding of corporate laws in India and their applicability in day-to-day affairs. Accordingly, in order to broaden my horizons and gain specialization in a specific branch of law, I could think of no better option than going in for the study of commercial law.
What were the key differences between your experience of Indian & British law school? Could you please tell our readers how the international exposure has helped you gain perspective to improve your skills in the legal field?
Being in a British law school is altogether a different ball game in comparison to studying in an Indian law school. One of the major differences I could experience in a British law school is the emphasis given to the practical side of the law, wherein one is asked to solve complex legal problems, whereas, in Indian law schools (limited to what I know), a vital role is played on theoretical practice, although I believe this is changing now. Another major difference is that the British law schools lay particular emphasis on a student having read up in advance the designated chapters of the reading list before attending a particular lecture each day so that an informed discussion could take place in the classroom. Lastly, the student-teacher ratio is generally low, and accordingly, the class size is small.
We are looking a decade back, from being a Trainee at PwC and to an International company as a Senior Counsel. How has this journey been for you?
The journey has been challenging yet rewarding so far, akin to a roller coaster ride. Considering my family’s limited experience in law (especially in corporate law) and recession in various parts of the world during 2008-2009, job hunting was a difficult task when I commenced my career. Further, working in different practice areas such as PE/VC/M&A in IndusLaw, Project Financing in Link Legal, Clasis Law, and IT in HCL has been a bit challenging in the beginning due to the said practice areas being completely different. However, with the passage of time and given my aim of gaining a varied experience, such a challenging experience has become rewarding for me.
After having a stint at renowned law firms, IndusLaw, Link Legal India Law Services, Clasis Law, you moved to an in-house role at HCL Technologies Limited. Could you explain what kind of work an in-house Counsel entail?
At HCL, I got to work in a largely similar fashion like I was working with law firms, except that my thought process of reviewing and negotiating a document became different. In an in-house practice, one has to review the document to figure out the risk involved and to find risk mitigation to such risk, from the point of view of securing the commercial interest of the company and minimising the chances of litigation, either by factoring in such risk in financials or to negotiate the document to the limited sense of removing/limiting such risk.
You moved to ANDRITZ, an international technology company serving as a Senior Legal Counsel. How was that decision to switch from a law firm to an industrial company rewarding on a personal as well as the professional front?
So far, it has been the most rewarding experience due to multiple reasons. The foremost is that I get to work on a multitude of contractual litigation issues. Another one is internal legal team support, wherein one can easily adapt to the environment within a span of a few months.
Your experience includes rendering advisory and transactional services in a variety of practice areas, including Project Finance, Private Equity/Venture Capital investments, Acquisitions and General Corporate Commercial. How do you keep the team spirits elevated and make a positive work environment handling high-stakes deals?
While working in a team, I believe that one has to ensure that you are available for support throughout to provide timely support to your team. Secondly, you have to uplift your junior colleagues while educating/supporting them as and when required. I have always ensured that I follow these in order to have high team spirits.
What keeps you busy other than work? Could you tell our readers about your hobbies? Any movies, work of art or books that have had a profound impression on you.
I really like watching content on OTTs (like Netflix, Amazon Prime) and listening to music and podcasts. I am not very fond of reading novels/books except those pertaining to law and finance, as I have a keen interest in the same. Additionally, I like reading columns written by influencers, as it motivates me to keep my life on track.
The pandemic has affected people, work, businesses, etc., around the world. How do you take care of your mental health and strive towards a good work-life balance?
Though pandemic has affected people and businesses (including me as I got infected by COVID-19), however, I ensure that I follow certain practices in order to safeguard myself and people around me, such as physical training for an hour on a daily basis, eating mostly home-cooked food, or food from hygienic places in case I have to, avoiding travelling to public places and busy market places, especially during the weekend. So far as striving for a good work-life balance is concerned, being able to spend quality time with family and close friends and unwinding by spending time with nature personally helps me achieve that.
You have had quite a journey as a law student at National Law University Jodhpur and then as an in-house lawyer with TATA and Siemens groups. How did you come to choose law as a career?
Accidentally. I fully intended to study English or history or even journalism. Then a couple of my friends applied for law school entrance exams, so I decided to give it a shot. I did not know that law school tutorials existed back then, so my preparation was limited to solving collected question papers. I was on the waitlist for some other law schools but got through National Law University Jodhpur.
I was ridiculously underprepared for law school. So much so that I seriously contemplated leaving for the first few months. Many of my batchmates were already familiar with what was being taught in class from law school tutorials and already knew much more than me about law and the legal profession. Some of them even had a clear career plan in mind and knew which magic circle law firms they wanted to join when they graduated. I did not even know what a magic circle was! I kept imagining a bunch of wig-wearing black-robed lawyers standing in a circle holding thick ancient books and chanting magic spells in an archaic language. Of course, I was completely wrong about that – the wig and black-robe are no longer compulsory.
Luckily, I realized – through some amount of trial and error and a lot of help from my friends – that law is mostly general knowledge and common sense. That made it much easier to find my way in law school over the next five years.
Did you ever regret your choice to stay on? How would you describe your time at law school overall?
Never. I made some lifelong friends, had some life-changing experiences, and had a lot of fun along the way. I also managed to learn something about the law. I still rely on the expertise and experience of my fellow alumni whenever I have questions, which is quite often.
It would be unfair to paint a completely rosy picture, though. I also experienced some bullying (including some death threats!) for my political opinions. My room was broken into several times, and my possessions (especially my books) were vandalized and mutilated. One time, I came back from dinner to find that there was a fire in my room. Perhaps it was the recklessness and stubbornness of youth, but I did not take it as seriously as I should have.
It was only much later that I realized that we do not talk about the toxic aspects of law school and the legal profession enough. My silence was part of the problem. Even now, we have barely begun to have the conversation about how to create safe, inclusive and welcoming spaces for everyone. I am glad that my time in law school taught me this important life lesson. Overall, I gained a lot more from the experience than I had ever imagined.
During your time at law school, you held quite a few positions of responsibility in the NLUJ Law Review, the Film Society and the Literary & Debating Society. How did this contribute to your development as a lawyer?
I never really looked at them as positions of responsibility. I always enjoyed extra-curricular activities more than being in the classroom. I was just grateful that law school gave me the opportunity to indulge in all my favourite activities – debate, drama, film and literature. I co-founded the Film Society and the Literary & Debating Society so that I could do just that.
Our school and college life are the best time to find out what we are interested in outside of academics and work. This is what makes us more interesting and helps us to be interested in others. This is especially important for us as lawyers because we work with people all the time, even though we tend to forget it! Law schools already have quite an active extra-curricular calendar in terms of moot courts, sports and cultural events. But there is always so much more that can be done.
The Film Society would screen one movie every week. The screening was open to all, and we had special dispensation to stay up late, so we got quite good audiences. The Literary Society also met once a week to discuss what we were reading and writing. The Debating Society was also quite active – we went to lots of debates across India and – on one memorable occasion – even Bangladesh. I got the opportunity to travel and meet lots of interesting people. This helped me make friends across disciplines, something that does not happen too easily when you are in the law school bubble. It also taught me the importance of finding time for yourself to relax and unwind – in good times and bad. In some ways, I was already a firm believer in work-life balance even before I began my career.
Your career journey began at Voltas Limited as their Legal Counsel in 2009. Most law students aspire to join law firms or litigation practice. What factors made you choose the road less travelled?
Again, luck played a role. I knew that work-life balance would be quite a challenge if I chose to join a law firm or a litigation practice. One of the senior lawyers I had worked with warned me that I should opt for litigation only if I had some financial stability for the next 5-10 years as it would take that long to make a mark as a first-generation lawyer. I did not.
So, I was very lucky that a team from TATA Group led by the then General Counsel decided to come to NLUJ for campus recruitment. They were looking for someone to work on some international disputes for Voltas Limited, which is one of their group companies. Everything just fell into place – I was the right person in the right place at the right time!
I spent two years working for Voltas on some major infrastructure disputes in India, the Gulf and Singapore. I enjoyed every minute of it. I had to unlearn almost everything I knew about legal research and drafting and relearn how to work on a real live dispute with factual backgrounds going back years or sometimes even decades! Over time, the business and project team colleagues started approaching me for contract and claim management topics at the pre-dispute stage. This was when I realized that part of the magic of working in-house is that you can (and should) get involved long before the faeces hit the fan. Our job is to help prevent disputes rather than fighting them! I learned so much about how to think like a business lawyer. I had some great mentors – both from the business and the legal team – some of whom had been in the industry for two or three decades!
All in all, I was very lucky to get an opportunity to work in both national and international environments at such an early stage of my career. A lot of my friends in law firms and litigation were surprised to learn that in-house lawyers got to travel to such interesting places and do such interesting work, plus have a work-life balance! To be honest, so was I.
Looking back, this really should not have been so much of a surprise for us. In law school, the focus is on law firms or litigation as career options. Granted that I should have probably taken matters into my own hands and done my research on possible alternatives. At the same time, law schools should widen the scope of the career advice that they give to law students. An in-house career should not be looked at as “the road less travelled” but as one of the many (often interconnected) roads that are open to lawyers.
I think this has already started – law students today are much better informed about the outside world than I was at the time. Alumni associations and external service providers like yourselves are already trying to explain various career possibilities after law school, such as academics, civil service, entrepreneurship, journalism, judiciary, public policy, strategy etc. However, there is a much broader mindset change that is still required. These career paths are still seen as being somehow less important or prestigious than the big two of law firms and litigation.
You then moved to Siemens as a Contract Manager in 2011 and currently hold the Lead Counsel position at Siemens Energy India. How has your in-house journey been so far for you?
To be honest, luck played a role here as well. I was very happy at Voltas. At the same time, living out of a suitcase for most of the year was tiring. I missed home and my loved ones. One day I was at a conference where I connected with some contract managers from the Siemens India legal team. They were looking for someone with contract and claims management experience to work from my hometown Kolkata. Once again, I was just the right person in the right place at the right time!
I spent the next five years working on major railway and metro infrastructure projects as a Contract Manager for the mobility business. As a function, contract and claims management is a lot more collaborative and customer-facing than other legal roles. Ultimately, everyone on the project is working together for the common good of the project. So, you need to build trustful and collaborative relationships with each and every stakeholder. Even if you have the best legal arguments, you do not want to be in a dispute situation where you need to use them! Instead, you need to find commercial solutions that are a win-win for everyone. This tests your legal competence as much as your communication, negotiation and stakeholder management skills. I was very lucky to work with project and business teams where every meeting with external stakeholders was a masterclass in these skills.
One of the best things about working for a multinational the size of Siemens is the sheer variety of opportunities available internally in different functions, businesses and regions. When the senior legal counsel of the energy business left for other opportunities, I asked to be considered for the role. A couple of years later, my then reporting manager also left for other opportunities. I already knew the team, the business and the organization as well as anyone – and they all knew me. Again, I was the right person in the right place at the right time!
The fact that I have been here for a decade now speaks for itself. I do feel like a dinosaur sometimes for having been around so long. But what is really cool is that I have friends in the legal department and the business who have been around even longer than I have. It’s always comforting to know that others have made the same mistakes that you have!
Jokes aside, it’s been an amazing journey – the work has been exciting, the challenges have been stimulating, and the lessons learned humbling (to say the least!). Some days were tough and frustrating, while others were more exciting than I would have hoped for. A few (thankfully very, very few) were boring. Every single day of these last twelve years was a crash course on being an in-house lawyer in a multinational, multicultural environment. Especially the bits that they somehow don’t teach in law school but definitely should (like brevity, effective communication and intercultural stakeholder management). What has made it all worthwhile has been the comradeship and the camaraderie along the way. There’s something to look forward to almost every single day – I’m always either learning something new, working on something exciting or even making new friends in different parts of the world.
Can you walk our readers through a typical workday as an in-house lawyer?
It is a little difficult to describe a “typical day” as an in-house lawyer. This is simply because of the sheer range of subjects that we get to work on almost daily. As business lawyers, we are usually generalists (even if we sometimes have our own specializations). We have to look at anything that comes to our table, especially if it involves a legal issue but sometimes even if it doesn’t! Often, the largest chunk of our time is spent understanding and collating the facts, strategizing on commercial solutions and ensuring alignment between business and corporate functions etc. Some may consider this non-legal work – especially if they believe that a lawyer should only deal with pure legal topics. I disagree; I believe that this is at the heart of what we do as lawyers. We apply the law to uncertain situations to achieve a satisfactory resolution. This means that a solid understanding of legal concepts and the ability to apply these concepts in practice is just basic table stakes for being an in-house counsel.
Another major chunk of what we do as business lawyers is contract management throughout the entire contract lifecycle. We get involved right at the start at the business development or bidding or contract negotiation stages to identify, evaluate and try to mitigate contractual risks. During the contract execution stage, we work with the business to resolve any issues which may arise, preferably without litigation. When litigation becomes necessary, we handle most of the work in-house. We develop the overall dispute management strategy, the arguments and counter-arguments and then brief external counsel to argue the matter.
Every once in a while, there’s also some transactional work. The frequency really depends on the organization. In an organization as large and complex as Siemens, there’s always some restructuring (including mergers, demergers, share transfers etc.) going on somewhere in the organization. I have personally been through 4 internal reorganizations in my 10 years at Siemens. Sometimes, the only thing that changed for me was the details on my business card. Others were more profound and required more work. During this time, we also carved out our healthcare and logistics businesses, both worldwide and in India. Recently, we completed a major transaction for the global carve-out of Siemens Energy and a transfer of 24% shareholding of Siemens India from Siemens to Siemens Energy. This took up most of our time for more than a year.
There’s also a fair bit of corporate work. As a governance function, we act as one of the conscience-keepers of the organization by conceptualizing, implementing, and overseeing internal processes which ensure that we do clean, compliant and sustainable business.
Recently you did an Executive Education Programme from IIM Bangalore. It is often said that in-house lawyers are not only legal advisors but also business advisors. Do you agree with this school of thought?
The IIM-B course was part of a two-year potential development programme organized by Siemens. The idea of this potential development programme – which is currently on its fourth batch – is to bring together a diverse bunch of young people within the organization with the potential to grow and then give them opportunities to learn by doing. I was part of the second batch of thirty colleagues who were chosen for this programme. The highlight was spending five weeks on campus in IIM-B learning strategy, communications, career management, corporate finance, sales and marketing, human resource management etc., from their faculty. Since it was an on-campus programme, the thirty of us quickly became close friends. Looking back, we learned as much from each other as we did from the faculty! What I learned over the course of the two-year programme definitely helped me be a better version of myself, not just a better business lawyer.
As far as being a business lawyer goes, I would go even further than that and say that we are not just business advisers but strategic business enablers. The days when in-house lawyers sat in an ivory tower of their own making, spoke in a strange language called legalese to the business and tried to eliminate all risks through “write-only” legal documents that no one else reads are long gone. Legal is no longer the department of “no” but the department of “yes, and…”. Our business colleagues know that we will provide strategic advice and practical, commercially viable solutions that help the organization to grow sustainably. Our internal processes are built in such a way that legal and business as well as other functions (to name just a few – bid management, project management, finance, risk and internal controlling, sustainability) need to work together from the very beginning to the very end. This is a win-win for everyone. As support functions, we get to be involved from start to finish and have instant access to all the information we need to do our jobs. And the business has instant access to practical and solution-oriented advice. Of course, we are still a governance function and need to take some difficult decisions. This is actually much easier to do as the department of “yes, and…” – when your business colleagues know that you always do your best to find a solution, they respect your decision much more when you say that this is not the right thing to do. Luckily, such situations are quite rare.
You took on a leadership role just a few months before the pandemic hit. How did you stay focused on team management and handling high stake tasks with such a crisis happening just a few months into a new role?
Again, I was just very, very lucky. One of the many benefits of being a relative dinosaur in the department is that I already knew the business and the team very well. We were friends, and we worked well together. I got some great advice when I took over this role, which was to just be myself. After all, what can be easier than leading a team of your own friends? All I had to do was get out of the way so that we could all be ourselves. And it has worked out great.
Of course, the pandemic and lockdown affected everyone both personally and professionally. Professionally, we took the lead on crisis management from a contractual perspective. Luckily, we already had fairly mature project management and contract management systems in place. This helped us to streamline our COVID-related correspondence with customers, subcontractors and other stakeholders through a judicious mix of global standardization at a macro level and hyper-local strategies at a micro-level. The fact that this happened in the middle of a major transaction (the global carve-out of Siemens Energy) was quite a stretch for all of us.
On the bright side, this meant that we were fully occupied at a time that business came to a grinding halt for many organizations. Making the switch to working from home was fairly easy because we had already built a culture of trust, empowerment and proactive collaboration within the team. These are values that you need to build over time; it does not happen overnight. We had been living these values every day, even before the pandemic. We already had a practice of having a mid-week catch-up call where we discuss what we are working on, what is going well (and therefore we should do more of), what could be better (and therefore we should do differently) and where we need support from each other. This was really helpful because we could re-distribute the workload dynamically to make sure that everyone had some breathing space to take care of themselves and their loved ones during – and we tend to forget this – an unprecedented global crisis. In times like these, you have to have each other’s backs. And that’s what we did. And the best part? That it happened organically – because we were already doing it anyway. The crisis was just the backdrop.
Of course, like everyone else, the pandemic affected us all either directly or indirectly. Everyone lost someone – friends, family, colleagues. In times like these, you need to find ways to still have fun as a team. This may seem silly, but one of the things that we realized we really missed as a team were our water cooler conversations over tea/coffee. We built this back into our regular schedule with Friday Fundays – this started as a way to connect with each other every Friday evening over your drink of choice to just chat about our personal lives. The only two rules of Friday Fundays were “we do not talk about work” and “we do not talk about work”. Since we were already friends, the conversation always flowed easily. We felt lighter going into the weekend, having had these chats. Soon, we extended them to old friends in other teams – inviting colleagues from different functions and businesses whom we missed hanging out with. They loved the idea too. Then we started to invite colleagues whom we wanted to get to know better, and they loved the idea even more. From being a way to help us stay connected within our team while we all worked from home, it has now become a way of networking and making new friends across the organization. The contribution to our overall mental health was immeasurable.
You have been quite vocal on the topic of mental health in the legal profession. What measures can we take in the coming years to ensure the mental health and well-being of legal professionals?
Not vocal enough! For example, this is the first time that I am talking about the bullying that I experienced in law school on a public forum. I have talked about this in my personal and professional groups, but I should have been much more vocal about this from the beginning. Most lawyers struggle with mental health challenges in silence, as I did. At the root of it all is the culture of perfectionism in the legal profession, which stigmatizes “weakness”. This is what ultimately leads to impostor syndrome, lack of work-life balance and burnout.
Lawyers see themselves as problem-solving superheroes who always have the right answers to any and every problem. When we quite inevitably fail to achieve the impossible standards that we have arbitrarily set for ourselves, we overcompensate by working harder and longer hours to prove ourselves not just to ourselves but to those around us as well. More office-time, more work, more side projects, more billings, more clients, more revenue, more more more. We feel like we must be workaholics who are available 24/7/365. Why? Because we compare ourselves to others and see that everyone is doing it. There’s no shame in admitting that we have all done this. In fact, it’s important to understand that we ALL do this. A lot of the guilt and anxiety of impostor syndrome is feeling like the only impostor surrounded by otherwise perfect beings. It’s illogical, but it’s true. The first step is admitting it.
How do we overcome it? Well, of course, there are far more mental health resources that are available nowadays than ever before. The problem is the stigma of “weakness” associated with seeking professional help for mental health in the legal profession. So it is critical that we address the root cause of the culture of perfectionism in the profession, which causes such issues in the first place.
One of the best coaches I ever met once told me that “perfect is the enemy of good” and “good is good enough” – it was a small but simple realization which stayed with me. We can adopt a growth mindset only when we stop chasing the impossible dream of perfectionism. Instead of wasting time comparing ourselves to others, we can focus on simply being better than we were before. Made a mistake? That’s okay! Instead of telling ourselves that we are terrible at this (which will become a self-fulfilling prophecy), we can think about what we can do better next time. Is there someone better at this than we are? That’s great! Instead of telling ourselves that we will never be as good as them (which leads to further anxiety and impostor syndrome), we can ask them for help so we can do better.
One simple example – I struggle with timeliness. For example, joining meetings on time used to be a challenge because my calendar was so packed. This is a problem that’s gotten a lot worse for all of us while working from home, with back-to-back meetings becoming the norm. One of the best hacks is to let the problem (our schedules) be part of the solution. Instead of being a slave to my calendar, I started to use it to my advantage. If I had an important task, I would schedule a meeting with myself to complete that task. If someone called me in the middle of working on this task, I would just tell them when I am free next and ask them to schedule for a more convenient time. My schedule immediately became much more manageable.
Another great hack was to use the meeting reminders to my advantage. Earlier, I would only start wrapping up what I was doing when I got the 5-minute reminder for my next meeting. Now, I use the 15-minute reminder to do that. If there’s too much left to do, I schedule another slot to finish that work instead. This leaves me with enough time to get prepared for the next meeting. And the 5-minute reminder? I now use it to do nothing at all. I clear my mind and focus on being mindful. This may seem like a silly example, but the benefits to my mental health have been immeasurable. You just need to find what works for you.
Of course, this can only work if our workloads (and timelines!) are manageable in the first place. This is a structural problem that can only be addressed if we start setting healthy boundaries while still being flexible. I keep reminding my team and my business colleagues that if everything is urgent, then nothing is urgent. To set reasonable timelines, we need to distinguish between urgent tasks (which are time-sensitive in the short-term) and important tasks (which contribute to your long-term goals) and then prioritise accordingly:
URGENT
NOT URGENT
IMPORTANT
Prioritize tasks with significant outcomes and clear deadlines
Schedule tasks with significant outcomes but no fixed deadlines
NOT IMPORTANT
Delegate or streamline (standardize/templatize) tasks with clear deadlines but which require less expertise
Delete or mechanize tasks that do not add any measurable value
Last but certainly not least, the usual boundaries between our personal and professional lives have dissolved, with hybrid working becoming the norm. That is not necessarily a bad thing. We can embrace the flexibility this gives us to manage our workload better by deciding when we are “in the office” and when we are “at home”. For example, I find it helps me to take breaks in between office work to do household chores like prepping meals, cooking and cleaning. Others may prefer to continue having a clear distinction between office/home, for example, by doing office work between 9-to-5 and taking care of household chores before or after that, or starting office a little later in the day after taking care of some household chores and then working till a little later in the evening. Or vice versa. It all depends on what works best for you. At the end of the day, it’s important to get some “me-time” and “we-time” to focus on ourselves and our loved ones. Some people are calling this work-life integration because you can choose how to integrate different aspects of work-life balance into your schedule in a flexible way.
We can only do this if we – as employers and employees – change our mindset to start focusing on achievements in terms of outcomes rather than activity and office time. We don’t (and we shouldn’t!) have to do this alone.
What would be your advice to law students and young lawyers who aspire to establish themselves as in-house counsels?
I get these questions quite frequently from law students and young lawyers. This is a very positive development because it shows that they are already aware that an in-house career is a viable career option and are actively considering it. I usually try to turn the questions around and ask them what they want and expect in terms of purpose, roles and responsibilities, career growth, compensation structure, flexibility and work-life balance. Based on their responses, I try to explain what in-house life has to offer them.
The most frequently asked question is how to get an in-house role. For example, we get a lot of requests from law school placement committees to attend campus recruitment. We also get a lot of internship applications from law students who tell us that they would be interested in securing a pre-placement offer. Finally, we also get requests for referrals for roles within the organization. I have to explain that in-house recruitment works very differently from law firm recruitment simply because an in-house team is part of a larger business organization and therefore is structurally different from a law firm.
In-house teams have a fixed headcount which increases irregularly over time (rather than annually, as in law firms). This means that it is quite difficult for in-house teams to make recruitment offers in advance. Most in-house vacancies become available as and when the incumbent leaves for other opportunities. Such roles are usually advertised on the organization’s careers page, job aggregator sites and through recruitment consultants. You will then need to do some research on whether this is the right role for you. This is where dinosaurs like us can be of some help. Have you seen an in-house role that interests you and want to learn more about it? Come to us with your questions, and we would be more than happy to help! Not with a referral because a referral for someone you do not know and have not worked with is fairly useless. But to help you understand how you can be the best fit for a particular in-house role and then excel in it:
Know yourself – What kind of career interests you? Do you want to be more of a generalist or specialist? Do you want to focus on doing interesting legal work or take on more and more administrative responsibilities? There are no right or wrong answers because this depends entirely on what works best for you at that time. You can always change your mind and try something else because there will be lots of opportunities to do different things in every organization.
Know the business – As an in-house lawyer, you are a strategic business enabler whose job is to help the business succeed in doing clean, compliant, sustainable and, of course, profitable business. To do this, you need to know the business as well as your business colleagues do – what do we sell? who do we sell to? Who are our competitors? What are our short-term and long-term strategic goals? Law school does not prepare you for any of this. Thankfully, most organizations have technical and finance trainings for non-technical/non-finance colleagues who do a great job in explaining these topics in language that even a lawyer can understand!
Develop your soft skills – Legal competence is a basic expectation of every in-house role. However, what will get you noticed is your soft skills because – consciously or unconsciously – everyone in the organization is constantly evaluating you on these skills. This can be tricky for lawyers because law school does not help develop skills like approachability, empathy, active listening, effective communication, strategic thinking, ownership, curiosity and even common sense. In fact, what we learn in law school can hinder the development of these skills without us knowing it. Again, most organizations have training programs that cover all these skills.
Be the department of “Yes, and…” – Law school prepares us to analyze and avoid risks rather than mitigating them. To be strategic business enablers, we have to find common-sense, practical and commercially viable solutions. Our job is to advise the business to make sure that these risks fit the risk profile of our business and that they are approved at the right approval levels with the right mitigations in place.
Ownership – Take ownership of everything you do. As lawyers, we tend to focus on legal aspects rather than the business aspects of an issue. Finding a commercial solution to a business issue requires different functions within the organization to collaborate. Legal is best placed to help steer this collaboration and be part of the ultimate (hopefully successful) outcome. This will make you the go-to person for everyone in the legal department as well as in the business. If you can also volunteer for some special projects or special topics within the legal department, you will have more opportunities to develop and demonstrate your capabilities to management. You just need to spot the right opportunity or even create them, if necessary.
Make friends – It helps. It really does. Being able to bring my whole self to work and having fun at work gives me the psychological safety I need to be my best self at work. I am who I am today largely because of the friends I have made at work and outside work.
Be the right person in the right place at the right time – I’ve always believed in the old Scouts & Guides motto – “Be Prepared”. Opportunities may come when you least expect them. It helps to think a few moves ahead – what are the skills that I need to do my current job? How can I develop these skills further? What are the skills that I need to do the next job I want to do? How can I develop those skills further? That way, when these opportunities do arise – you are already seen as the right person in the right place at the right time!
When did it dawn unto you that Law is the correct pathway? You have learnt French during college, are you still fluent in the language as you were during your diploma days?
When I was in school, I had decided to study Commerce because I liked Economics, and at the same time, I also wanted to study languages because I was studying French and Mandarin Chinese. But when I started attending university, I realised that Economics taught in the university was different from what was taught at school and that I didn’t like it anymore. At the same time, I was studying some Law subjects and realised that I preferred Law to Commerce. This is the primary reason why I chose to become a lawyer.
Unfortunately, my Mandarin is non-existent now because I stopped learning the language in grade 11, 20 years ago. But I continued learning French throughout university and obtained a Diploma in French. I also lived in Montreal for half a year as an exchange student. During those years, my French was fluent, but it is now quite rusty. It does come back pretty quickly though if I travel to France or another French-speaking country. I still love the language.
After spending 6.5 years at Allen & Overy LLP, you moved to Philip Morris in Melbourne. Was that transition planned or a leap of faith?
I worked at law firms for around a decade. I was at Blake Dawson Waldron (now Ashurst) in Melbourne before moving to A&O in London. Quite early on during my time in private practice, I realized that it wasn’t fit for me because although I enjoyed the work, I did not like the lifestyle. I found that the focus on presenteeism and billable hours drove inefficiency. It seemed counterproductive to leading a healthy balanced life. Life is about family and the things you do outside of work; it’s the things that bring you happiness. So, for me, it didn’t seem like a sustainable career choice.
I had done a secondment at Citigroup while I was at Allen & Overy and had really enjoyed the in-house experience. I liked understanding more about a company rather than moving from one transaction to the next. Having that continuity really appealed to me. When I moved back to Australia, I decided that it would be easier to move with the firm for a number of reasons. I later realised that was probably not the best decision. Hence, the move to Philip Morris. I love being in-house. It’s a very different working style to being in a law firm and it really suits me.
During 2008-2009 you had worked as a legal counsel in an in-house team at Citigroup, in the backdrop of a global recession. How was the experience of working with a leading finance group during a financial crisis?
I was on secondment from A&O with Citigroup for about 10 months and started there about a week before Lehman Brothers collapsed. The GFC impacted London-based investment banks both from a people perspective, but also in relation to the nature of the work that was being done. On a broader scale, the GFC had a huge impact on London. You could see it on the streets with businesses closing down. You would hear about friends going through restructuring processes at their workplaces; we went through one ourselves. Restructures were not as common back then, so going through them taught me a great deal about resilience.
As for the last year, it’s been challenging on a very different level. I think the one critical learning that has come from the pandemic is that, while you need to be resilient, you need to be human first. The uncertainty attached to the last year made me realise that life is short and that you need to live in the moment and do what you want now, not put it off to a later time. I also learned that you need to support other people through a crisis; to not pretend that everything is okay, but rather acknowledge that it is not. What people ordinarily call “soft skills” really came to the fore in this period.
You have worked with Philip Morris in Australia for almost 9 years now. What has the experience been like working as an in-house lawyer compared to your law firm days?
I love working In-house; it brings consistency of workload; it allows you to really understand the business, understand the issues and get to know people on a much deeper level.
You have been an advocate for various social issues like mental health, gender equality and leadership fluidity.How have you incorporated these topics as boardroom conversations? How can the legal industry or corporates be more inclusive of gender and mental health issues?
I have been involved in a number of initiatives over the years, including a project regarding mental health awareness within my organisation. I was also involved in an initiative relating to flexibility in the workplace and changing perceptions around flexibility, and have done a lot of work with our inclusion and diversity committee. I believe that having conversations on all of these issues is important. As and when something comes up that relates to one of the topics that I am passionate about, I make sure I find my voice and offer my opinion on the matter.
Secondly, it’s important is to know that you can have an impact outside of your organisation too. I have realised through my journey on LinkedIn that there are many people out there doing great work in these areas and that you can get involved at a more grassroots level.
You’re associated with The Pink Elephants Support Network as a Peer Support Champion. Can you walk us through your role and impact the organization is trying to make? Did the support for the organization stem from a personal experience?
In between my two children, I had two miscarriages. They had a devastating impact on my mental health. After my first, I kept working as a form of distraction, even though I was suffering internally. When I had my second, some months after my loss someone asked me if I was okay; it made me pause. I realized in that pause that I wasn’t okay and needed to talk about why I wasn’t okay. What I realised through that conversation and my experiences is that there is a cone of silence surrounding early pregnancy loss. I didn’t realise how many people I knew had gone through something similar until I started talking about my losses. Then people would say, “I had one too, and it was horrible and really hard”.
That’s why I started talking about my losses more publicly – to bring a voice to the topic – and during that time, someone connected me to the Pink Elephants Support Network. When I saw the work the organisation does in helping to support women who have suffered early pregnancy loss, I knew I wanted to get involved.
You have completed a Company Director’s Course from the Australian Institute of Company Directors. Do you believe that “one should never stop learning or upscaling” even if they’re at the peak of their careers?
I think that continuing to invest in your own learning and development is critical at any stage of your career. And that can involve a variety of things beyond formal training courses, such as listening to other people’s talks or seminars, reading books or articles and of course, learning on the job.
What would you advise people who’re finding it difficult to voice their concerns about their workplace? Is there anything they need to be cautious about or prepare beforehand?
I think there are a couple of things that you need to ask yourself: who is the person I am going to voice my concerns to, is that person someone I trust and do I think they are going to do something to affect change.
I definitely think speaking up is important though. In a LinkedIn post the other day, I said that what you walk past is what you’re willing to put up with
The other thing I think you need to ask is whether the organisation is right for you if you are questioning toxic behaviour in that workplace.
In the early stages of my legal career, I definitely experienced some workplace issues, including a certain level of toxic behaviour. It’s hard to speak up and have a voice in those environments when you’re so new to the profession. When we’re in the junior stages of any career we often have blinkers on with respect to the range of options available to us – they do however exist.
You are an inspiration to many leaders who encourage vulnerability and open conversations on mental health. Do you think that Emotional Intelligence has helped you be a better leader?
Yes, a hundred per cent. I believe Emotional Intelligence is incredibly important nowadays. It enables you to listen to people, stand back, put yourself in their shoes, and be empathetic. Emotional Intelligence is definitely one of the most important skills leaders should have.
Have you faced silent sexism or racism for being a woman of colour? How have you dealt with it or moved past it?
Everyone has different experiences. My personal experience has not been one of having faced overt discrimination as a woman of colour. That’s not to say that these issues don’t exist. These issues are very real, and I hear about them all the time. I view it as my privilege that I have not faced these issues myself, and therefore, I need to have a voice on these matters to be able to give back and help others who have faced these issues. Pregnancy and maternity leave is for example still a challenging area for many organisations. It is a critical time in a woman’s career and negative perceptions and biases can play a role in the way women are viewed in organisations and how they continue to progress in their careers.
Being the wonderful storyteller that you are, have you ever considered taking up storytelling as a full-time career?
I have fallen into storytelling very recently as a result of my journey on LinkedIn. What I have realised through telling stories is that it needs to be a part of our day-to-day life. Whatever profession you are in, storytelling can play an important role.
For me personally, storytelling is something that I really enjoy as I love the human side of work. I believe that we are first human beings and what we do comes after that. It is important to let other people see who you are and that, for me, is where storytelling becomes relevant.
My fundamental message is to be yourself, be authentic, do not force yourself to be someone you are not, look deep within, try and understand who you are and bring that with you to work, wherever you are!
