Vaishnavi Bhaskaran graduated from National Law University, Jodhpur in 2010. She is currently a partner at Spectrum Legal where she heads the Corporate-Commercial and Employment Law Practice. In this interview, she talks to us about:
Her experience at NLU, Jodhpur and decision to pursue law
Her view on internships and augmenting a CV
Her professional journey and founding ‘The Little Black Coat’
Spectrum Legal and her views on the field of law in the contemporary context
What incident, influence or interest prompted you to think of law as a career? If not law, what other options would you have considered for a career?
I have wanted to be a lawyer since the beginning of my teenage years. The idea (somewhat clichéd) first came to me after I had read a series of John Grisham novels in quick succession. Of course, the reality is vastly different from what one reads about, and I realised that soon after I entered law school. Fortunately for me however, the reality was not unpleasant. I had briefly toyed with the idea of journalism, but in the end, it was to be law.
What would you like to say about your experience with college admissions and competitive exams?
I was very clear that I wanted to attend one of the top-ranked national law schools, and I was very fortunate to have found a place at NLU Jodhpur.
How would you describe your life while studying at NLU Jodhpur? What activities did you tend to favor?
My time at NLU was undoubtedly one of the best periods of my life, and has gone a long way in shaping me, both as a professional and as a person. While at NLU, I had a clear vision of what I wanted to do once I graduated, and I focussed on doing things that would get me closer to my goal. I tended to focus on subjects that I thought would help me once I started practising, and pursued internships that would further my goals.
Were you always clear on corporate-commercial law as your field of expertise or were you drawn towards it while studying there?
It was after my very first litigation internship that I realised that litigation wasn’t my calling. Like most law students who start off thinking they will graduate and pursue litigation, I did initially pursue a couple of litigation internships. After I completed my second year however, I found an internship opportunity where I was given both litigation and non-litigation related work, which is when I realised that I wanted to be a corporate lawyer. Subsequently, I chose to pursue the corporate law honours course that NLU offers, in my fourth and fifth years.
Beyond academic experience what would augment CVs of law students and make them better candidates for the same?
Obviously, being from a good university and having a good GPA will more often than not, help you secure a good job in the legal field. However, even internships can open up doors in most organisations, if one is found to be hardworking, resourceful, knowledgeable and eager to learn.
What kind of internships would you recommend law students opt for to start building the sort of versatility and widened range of law that you are well versed with today?
Most small to medium law firms in Bangalore do not have the precise demarcations when it comes to areas of practice, as many larger firms do, and as a result, most lawyers tend to have wide exposure within the broader boundaries of their chosen specialisation.
In my experience, interning with small and medium size firms provides interns an opportunity to learn a wider range of subjects.
Krishnamurthy & Co. (K Law), an established corporate commercial law firm, was your first placement directly after college. How did your experience there help you add to your understanding and practice of law in India?
Immensely. In my opinion, K Law is an excellent place to start one’s career. During my time there, I worked on a very wide variety of issues and was very fortunate to have been given a high degree of responsibility at a relatively early age. Both these factors were instrumental in helping me start Spectrum Legal.
What prompted your shift from K Law to Poovayya & Co., Advocates & Solicitors in 2011?
At that point, I was keen to acquire more exposure and see how other firms functioned. I had interned with Poovayya & Co. previously, and had found the experience very rewarding and enjoyable.
What went into founding The Little Black Coat in 2013? What were your motivations for the same and how did it affect your perspective on legal startups?
Even while I was in law school, it remained my ultimate objective to set up my own law firm. At the time when I took the decision to go independent, the startup ecosystem in Bangalore was booming, and it was only a matter of time before they all needed lawyers.
What did you learn from your experience with startups while running The Little Black Coat?
Working with startups is a completely different experience from working with bigger and more established entities. Established companies tend to be business savvy and typically require only legal advice. Working with startups however, requires you to do a great deal of handholding and walking them through business and financial issues, in addition to providing them with legal counsel.
Tell us what drove you to set up Spectrum Legal with Chinnappa and Co.
By that point I had developed a small client base, and while being an independent practitioner was extremely satisfying, it is also limiting because you cannot service your clients’ needs beyond your area of practice. Additionally, being only one person, you also face issues because of a lack of bandwidth. At that point, setting up a law firm seemed the natural and logical step, and when I met my partners, I found the team a good fit to take that step with.
What was the motivation behind creating a law firm that aims to provide all types of legal services across different fields of law in the same firm?
Like I said above, when you practise only one area of law, it can become difficult to service a client in a complete manner. A full-service law firm brings with it a unique synergy and the ability to meet all the legal needs of a client in-house, which was the motivation in creating a firm that provide a broad spectrum of legal services.
Working for a firm, corporates especially, is generally seen as a time intensive lifestyle which leaves little room for much else. How true would you say this is from your own experience?
There is a great deal of truth in that. Law is indeed a time-intensive profession, but so are most careers these days. In order to succeed, one must be prepared to put in the hard work. Having said that, I think as one becomes older and more senior, there comes a time when an individual can decide what his or her priorities are, and accordingly devise a schedule in keeping up with those priorities.
What are your thoughts on the traditional ideas of specialization in singular core areas of law as opposed to the contemporarily broader approach to a wider field of law with multiple specialties?
In my opinion, this is a result of the market where clients are faced with multiple legal issues. When it comes to law, most of the learning happens while one is working, and as such, a specialisation develops when one has been working for a while. I personally prefer a wider area of functioning, as I find this variety exciting and challenging.
What would be your parting message to the readers?
Before you graduate, and during the initial stage of your career, the choices one is faced with and the possibilities can be overwhelming. However, you’re in for the long haul, and it’s imperative to never lose the joy that comes from practising law. Initially, one’s focus should be solely to learn and attempt to master one’s field, everything else will follow at its own pace.
Puneet Bansal graduated in B. Com. from Hansraj College, Delhi University in 1998 and thereafter he acquired an LL.B degree in 2007 by eking out time for the evening classes of Campus Law Centre of Delhi University. Over the course of his highly successful career he has worked as a Partner at Lakshmi Kumaran & Sridharan as well as BMR Associates. He is at present a Managing Partner at Nitya Tax Associates.
In this interview he tells us about:
Chartered Accountancy – his time in college, the contours of the course and tips to ace the entrance exam.
The work in an advisory practice, his law degree and experiences as a Partner at two firms.
The importance and convergence of law and taxation, advice for Tax Law enthusiasts, his views on the GST and setting up Nitya Tax Associates.
How would you introduce yourself to our readers? Please tell us about your family and childhood.
I was born and brought-up in a middle class family. My father is a business man and mother is a house maker. Being in a middle class household, my upbringing was normal. I was a pretty average student till Class X.
Were you always clear about your career plans considering you pursued commerce in senior secondary and went on to graduate from Hansraj College, Delhi University in B.Com?
Never. I choose Commerce in Class XI as I was not interested in Science and Arts. It was in Class XI that I developed an interest in studies and started doing well. Since my marks in Class XII were good, I joined Hansraj College. I didn’t have any career plan till then.
How did you manage college with your CA preparations?
One of my uncles filled the Chartered Accountancy form and that’s how I started doing CA. Indeed, CA used to be a tough course earlier as well. I used to go to college in the first half and come back to the CA firm in the second half when I was interning. It was a tough 3 years of managing both studies and internships.
Please tell us about your CA Articleship. What was the application procedure? How competitive was it to secure an Articleship? What was the work assigned to you?
I did an internship in a medium-size CA firm. My senior in the CA firm was a family friend so I got the internship with ease. I did accounting, company law and Income tax related work during the internship. Importantly, I was not at all exposed to indirect taxes during my internship which is my area of profession now. The period of my internship was a thorough enjoyment and was my first chance to peek into the professional services space.
You graduated from Hansraj College in 1998 and finished your CA course in 1999 with an All India Rank. Please enlighten our readers with some valuable tips to ace the CA examinations.
I cleared all CA exams in the first go and was the All India 27th rank holder in the CA final. I have followed one rule for preparation for CA exams, and in fact, now as well when I am practicing on my own I abide by it and that is ‘whatever you do, do with passion and then everything will fall in place. Otherwise do not do it’. I was always interested in understanding concepts rather than clearing exams. The conceptual clarity in all the CA final subjects only helped me in clearing the exams.
Our readers would like to know about your initial days as a CA professional. Could you share with us any interesting anecdotes?
When I became a CA, I thought that life henceforth would be easy. But I was confronted with reality soon and realized clearing CA is the start of struggles in one’s professional career. Clearing the CA exam only opens the gates to the professional world. At each stage of our professional lives, we need to prove ourselves with hard work and competence.
Was it difficult for you to shift to a new place of work, which was primarily a law firm? Please tell us about your work experience at L&S.
(Puneet joined Lakshmikumaran & Sridharan in 2003 as a Chartered Accountant in their indirect tax litigation practice.)
Indeed. I was working in Maruti Udyog and suddenly decided to shift to L&S. My family was stunned and couldn’t understand my decision. Also, the decision to shift from an Industry to a Law firm was a big change in my career. Working at L&S was a great experience. It was a close knit family environment comprised of competent professionals. Initially I did litigation, and later, set up their advisory practice. It was 9 years well spent in my career.
In 2004, you joined Delhi University to pursue law. What was the driving force behind this decision?
As I was working in L&S and wanted to make a career in litigation, I decided to do law. The admission procedure at the Delhi University required clearance of an entrance test. Clearing the entrance test was not tough.
Please tell us about your law school days. Did you participate in any student activities? How active were you in other college activities?
I did law from the Campus Law Centre, Delhi University evening batch, so I used to attend the classes and write the exams. As I was working full time in L&S, I didn’t participate in student or college activities during my law school days.
How helpful was your law degree in terms of the added legal perspective to your existing knowledge? What career advantages did it bring?
(Puneet qualified in Law in 2007, after that he continued with L&S.)
The law degree really helped in giving me perspectives on the Indian Constitution and various other Commercial laws. I would recommend it as a “must do” if one needs to practice tax. Further, the law degree opens an opportunity for you to appear in the High Court and Supreme Court.
What work does advisory practice include? What were the added responsibilities as a partner of one of the leading firm in indirect taxes?
(After establishing the advisory practice of L&S, Puneet headed this team as a partner from 2010 to 2012.)
The advisory practice involved advising clients on Indirect Tax issues involving legal interpretation, structuring business models etc. As a Partner of a large law firm, I was responsible for advising leading corporates of India. I also had the responsibility of managing a team of 10 – 12 professionals.
Please share with us your work experience at BMR.
(In 2012, Puneet joined BMR & Associates LLP as a partner.)
My professional journey wouldn’t have been complete without joining BMR. It was a totally different way of practicing when compared to a law firm. The advisory practice was more focused on bringing legal, practical and implementable solution for clients. Furthermore, I really liked the professional practices in BMR. Overall, it was a great experience.
How important is taxation as a subject for law students? What advice would you give our readers to consider taxation as an area of practice?
Taxation is a very important subject for law students especially if one is focused on commercial laws. Taxation plays a key role in business transactions and has the effect of making and breaking the business. The current times are most exciting times for tax professionals with so many things coming up or growing up, be it GST, Transfer Pricing, International Taxation etc. This is right time to be in the taxation field.
What issues did you face while setting up Nitya Tax Associate? Our readers would love to know about the significance of “Nitya” in the firm’s name.
(Puneet recently founded an independent indirect tax boutique “Nitya Tax Associates” at New Delhi.)
The decision to start Nitya was an attempt to create something on our known outside a framework of large firm. In professional services firm, only two things are important – clients and people. Some of the leading corporates have reposed faith in us and the going has been good till now. There were initial challenges on getting good people but now, we have a good team.
The name ‘Nitya’ has its origination in the Sanskrit word and stands for ‘continuity’ / ‘eternity’. The name is a reflection of our belief and commitment to be available to our clients.
Please introduce us to your team. What plans do you have to take forward Nitya Tax Associates, in terms of workforce as well as setting up branches in other major cities of India?
We have a good team with some members with experience ranging from five to eight years. Kulraj Ashpnani, Deepak Suneja and Gaurav Narula have worked in large and reputed professional services firms. As of today, we are twelve professionals -a mix of Accountants and Lawyers. As of now, our focus is on NCR though we continue to cater to clients in other parts of India. For the next one, two, years, we plan to operate from Delhi and to strengthen our foothold first.
What are your views about the upcoming GST regime?
The GST will significantly simplify the indirect tax regime. During the first few years, it will open a floodgate of opportunities for professionals be it accountants or lawyers.
What are the preferred legal issues you like to work on? Do you have any hobbies that help you unwind after a long day at work?
Working on complex Indirect Tax issues for large manufacturing clients is my favorite as of now. I also enjoy doing litigation. Spending time with my kids and watching Hindi movies really helps me unwind.
What would be your parting message for our readers?
It does not matter what career you choose, but whatever you choose, do it in the most exemplary way and then everything will fall in place. Success is not a destination; it is a never-ending journey.
Ashutosh Pandey qualified in law from Banaras Hindu University in the 2005 Batch. He has been a practicing lawyer in all the six courts of Delhi since then. He started preparing for the judicial services in 2010 and finally cracked the Tripura Judicial Services in 2015, securing the single Additional District Judge vacancy in higher judiciary. In this interview he talks to us about:
His background and the impact on his values and beliefs today
His preparation for the Tripura Judicial Services
The syllabus and books referred to in order to crack the exam
His personal views on the values and inspirations that can lead to success in order to crack such an exam
How would you introduce yourself, given that most of our readers are aspirants of law and services, law students and professionals?
I am a native of Buxar, Bihar who has graduated from BHU Law School with a BA LLB in Geography (Hons.). In 2015, I cracked the Tripura Judicial Services exam where there was a single vacancy. I come from a remote area and coming from a background without any legal professionals in the family taught me that the only companion is hard work. I am an individual who believes strongly in the values of sincerity towards preparation and the fight to succeed amidst stiff competition while rectifying one’s weakness alongside.
What was your life like after graduation and how did you begin focussed preparation in order to achieve your goal?
I came to Delhi in 2005 and I practiced at the Delhi Bar Association for 7 years as an advocate in all six district courts, tribunals and also had the opportunity to represent in the Delhi High Court and the Supreme Court. Initially, I was simultaneously preparing for the Higher Judiciary along with the practice. I had observed a lot of my classmates who had successfully cracked the exams in order to secure the Magistrate position and were posted all over India. I was confident in my abilities in being selected as an ADJ.
The chances of selection though are minute, because students from all over India appear for the exam and in huge numbers. Moreover, only 25% of all ADJ position holders are recruited directly from the Bar with 7 years’ experience despite the massive number of applicants while the rest 75% get selected through Departmental exam or promotions. The chances of selection also depend on the different marking criteria along with different syllabus which varies across states.
Along with your hard work and capability, which individual would you like to accord credit to in your attaining your goal? For what reason did this person have such a massive impact on you?
I would like to acknowledge my friends and batchmates of 2005 from BHU along with Akhilesh Kumar who also cracked the Rajasthan Higher Judiciary as an ADJ in 2015. The two of us were practising and simultaneously preparing for Judicial Services exams for various states. The two of us share the ideology that hard work coupled with meticulous planning and cooperation are a formula for success in the Higher Judiciary services.
My father had faith and confidence in me as well and supported my journey to become a judge of Tripura Higher Judicial Services.
Did you undertake coaching or mock tests, or refer to any study material during your preparation?
In my journey, self-study, text books, bare acts and the foundation and understanding of basics developed during my time in law school helped me to attain my goal and I personally believe that one cannot negotiate, or rather that there is no substitute for hard work.
In today’s day, in my view, there are multiple commercial coaching centres and they are beyond the reach of the pocket of a normal student. I referred to no mock tests and undertook no coaching from any centre but for the purposed of cracking the interview, I took advice from my friends who had appeared for Judicial Services exams.
I was in the process of serious preparations for the Judiciary since 2009 and was successful in cracking the exam and being selected on 2nd February, 2015 into the Tripura Higher Judicial services.
I don’t believe in luck or dependence upon any individual or blaming someone else for my own results. What I do believe in immensely is hard work along with 3 important D’s- dedication, devotion and determination and unwavering focus upon the goal one has set out.
My motto for life is my belief that if someone does hard work, it won’t go in vain, it shall always reap results and lead to success.
How many hours did you devote towards the Judicial Services in terms of your preparation on a daily basis?
In order to clear the Higher Judicial Services one requires deep knowledge and practise of advocacy alongside helps one to learn the law more. Apart from that, I used to spend around 5 hours daily on my preparation and study.
What would be the syllabus and the major acts which should be read by an aspirant of the Judicial exams?
The syllabus for Higher Judicial Services varies across different states. Moreover, it is lengthy and so a candidate has to prepare according to the syllabus of the concerned state.
In procedural laws, one needs to be well versed with Criminal Procedure Code, Civil Procedure Code, Evidence Act and in substantive laws, Transfer of Property Act, Indian Penal Code, Negotiable Instruments Act, Family Laws, SC/ST Act, the Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances Act, the Arbitration and Conciliation Act of 1996 and the Prevention of Corruption Act. One must also keep referring to Supreme Court and High Court judgements and other State laws must also be referred and compared. While writing answers, one must also keep in mind to write them in line with landmark judgements and with comparative study of one act from another.
One must also remember CSE law on a regular basis and in case, one doesn’t remember the same, the fact or principle held in the Judgements should be remembered.
What are the books you would recommend in order to prepare for the Higher Judicial Services?
The books I can recommend are all Bare Acts, all the college text books in general, S.N.Mishra for Indian Penal Code, J.N. Pandey for Constitutional Law, Takwani for Civil Procedure Code, Kelkar for Criminal Procedure Code and TPA as well as Evidence from Mulla and Mulla in particular.
This interview was taken by: Abhinandan Pandey, III year, ICFAI Law School, Hyderabad
Shaun Star graduated in B.Com and qualified in Law from Macquarie University in 2011, he further went on to pursue BCL from Oxford the same year. His dalliance with the Indian legal system started off with his exchange programme from the NLSIU, Bangalore as a part of his curriculum at Macquarie. Shaun is the Co-founder and Chairperson of the Australia-India Youth Dialogue, Co-founder of Crosshack and the founder of an advisory practice – the Australia India Advisory. In this interview, he expounds on:
His experience as an exchange student at NLSIU, Bangalore and as a BCL student in Oxford
His time at Clayton Utz in Australia and Amarchand Mangaldas and the Law Offices of Nandan Kamath in India.
The importance of LL.M degrees, differential experiences of working in Indian and Australian law firms as well as the importance of cross border ties
His advice for undergraduate students interested in corporate law and lawyers hoping to pursue transnational careers.
Your book titled, “Australia and India: Comparative Law and Legal Practice” was recently released in New Delhi? Tell us more about it.
I edited a book, entitled “Australia and India: A Comparative Overview of the Law and Legal Practice”, which compares the Indian and Australian legal systems. With forewords from the chief justices of India and Australia, the book comprises contributions written by eminent judges, barristers, lawyers and academics from both nations. The book was launched by the Attorney-Generals of Australia and India at the Australian High Commissioner’s residence in New Delhi and subsequently by The Honourable Michael Kirby AC CMG, former Justice of the High Court of Australia. It has been published by Universal Law Publishers, an imprint of Lexis Nexis.
Each chapter of this volume has been co-authored by some of Australia’s and India’s top legal luminaries including the likes of Gopal Subramanium, Anand Grover, Haigreve Khaitan, Cyril Shroff, Pallavi Shroff, Shardul Shroff, Sumanto Basu, Madhurima Mukherjee, Nisha Kaur Uberoi and V Umakanth.
This book is important not only because it provides a resource for those interested to learn about how these different regulatory regimes work but also because it promotes collaboration. Through this publication, I have been able to introduce many of the authors to each other for the first time – many of whom have started working on other projects together.
More information about the book is available here.
What do you think are the things India can learn from the Australian Legal system?
Given the common heritage of our legal systems and the many similarities in the form and structure of our federal systems of Government, there are many more opportunities for people in both countries to learn from each other, establishing partnerships of mutual benefit and shared understanding. For example, Australia has undergone a cultural shift with respect to litigation procedures in recent decades, with a focus on efficient and cost-effective litigation. While the Indian judicial system has its own unique challenges – with the sheer size of India’s population – some of these procedures of case management which have been successfully implemented in Australia may be useful in the Indian context. Conversely, Australia can learn from India’s use of public interest litigation which has been a driving force of reform in certain areas of the law, such as in human rights, public health and the environment.
Tell us about your experience at NLSIU.
(Shaun’s first introduction to Indian law was as an exchange student at the National Law School of India University, Bangalore (NLSIU).)
I was selected by the Australian Government to receive an Endeavour Award Scholarship (which is essentially Australia’s equivalent of the Fullbright Scholarship),which entitled me to study and work in India. I thoroughly enjoyed my time studying at NLSIU, where I had the opportunity to learn different aspects of Indian law.I also had the chance to meet some fantastic new friends, many of whom I have remained in contact with eversince.
While studying at NLSIU, I chose a number of subjects which allowed me to gain an understanding of different elements of the Indian legal system. Two of those subjects were taught by NLSIU alumni who had extensive experience as legal practitioners – I found these subjects (mergers &acquisitions and commercial arbitration) in particular worthwhile because of the nexus between academia and legal practice.
As an undergraduate student you worked at Clayton Utz, one of Australia’s top corporate law firms based in Sydney. How did you come across this opportunity? How was your experience at the firm?
In Australia, many students work alongside their studies – this allows students to gain experience in law firms or other businesses (as a paralegal for instance) while still at university. Working whilst studying is often common for two reasons:
our degrees are more flexible, allowing students to shape their timetables around work schedules (or vice versa); and
living expenses as a student can be expensive and many students work alongside their studies in order to pay their way through university.
I worked as a research assistant and paralegal in the international commercial arbitration group at Clayton Utz. In addition, I participated in the summer clerkship program at Clayton Utz which gave me experience in other practice groups (litigation, pro bono and on secondment to one of Australia’s major banks). Throughout my last two years of university, I worked two-three days per week at the firm.
Tell us about your stint at the Law Offices of Nandan Kamath.
During my time at the Law Offices of Nandan Kamath, I worked as a foreign qualified lawyer in the areas of sports, entertainment and intellectual property law. I had a fantastic time working with Nandan and his team. I was fortunate enough to be working there during the ICC Cricket World Cup 2011 – this was impeccable timing, given that the firm was engaged by the ICC to provide legal advisory services in connection with the event.
During my time at the firm, I also worked with Copyright Integrity International, a firm which was engaged to establish and implement a rights protection programme for the World Cup. Through this combined experience, I therefore had great exposure to sports law during such a big international event.
You previously worked as a Consultant at Amarchand Mangaldas in New Delhi. How did you come across this opportunity? What were the key areas that you worked on at Amarchand?
As a foreign qualified legal consultant for Amarchand Mangaldas, I worked on a number of domestic and international matters from across a variety of industries in the firm’s corporate advisory, mergers and acquisitions and private equity practice.
I came across this opportunity quite fortuitously – I remember attending a lecture on Corporate Law in India by Shardul Shroff at Oxford University. After the lecture (during Q & A), I recall asking Mr Shroff about his perspective on whether he thought there was a place for foreign law firms in India. Following our short exchange at Oxford, I remained in contact with the firm and was offered a position as a consultant in the M&A practice. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience as it gave me great exposure to the corporate culture in India, working on a number of significant transactions over the 2.5 years that I worked there.
How is it different from work at an Australian Law firm?
The skill-sets acquired in working as a transactional lawyer are transferrable across different common law jurisdictions. Of course there are different nuances in the legal systems, which I had to learn when moving to India. Interestingly, I started working at Amarchand at a time when the new Companies Act was coming into force – so I was not the only one who had to learn how the new machinery of India’s corporate law regime functioned.
It was also interesting adjusting to daily life in the context of an Indian law firm. In Australia, lawyers arrive at work by 8:30am and aim to leave the office at a reasonable time (although that is often not possible in the context of some transactions). In India, I was not expected to arrive at work until much later – although I would often find myself having dinner at the office with my colleagues.
This was also due to the fact that the deal-flow in India is consistent and I have had the opportunity to work on numerous large and interesting transactions – there seems to never be a dull moment practicing corporate law in India in recent times. That being said, I always found time to catch-up with my colleagues at the local chai-wallah, a practice that I was not accustomed to in Australia.
You pursued a BCL from Oxford. Is it true that an LL.M would help you only if you want to pursue a career in teaching rather than a career in the Industry? What is your take on the same?
I disagree with the argument that an LL.M will only be beneficial for those pursuing a career in academia. Many successful lawyers and businesspeople in India and across the world have graduated with an LL.M. The opportunity cost of studying abroad for a year is that a young lawyer can spend that time working an extra year in a corporate law firm or as a litigator – but in my opinion, lawyers and advocates will be able to gain that practical experience in a firm throughout the rest of their lives. The experiences, networks and different perspectives that one can gain from pursuing an LL.M abroad is invaluable and serve you in good stead in your career as a professional.
Tell us about your involvement with the Australia-India Youth Dialogue of which you are Co-founder, and what it hopes to achieve in terms of Indo-Australian relations? Is law as a subject on the radar when it comes to AIYD?
As Co-founder and Chair of the Australia India Youth Dialogue (AIYD), I lead a team which organises an annual dialogue for a group of Australia’s and India’s most accomplished young leaders. The AIYD is the pre-eminent track-two young leaders’ dialogue between Australia and India. It aims to provide a sustainable platform for the youth of Australia and India to come together and foster an enduring partnership between our two great countries.
Each year the AIYD brings together young Australian and Indian leaders, CEOs, Members of Parliament, journalists, policy-makers and athletes to discuss opportunities and challenges significant to the Australia-India relationship.
Of the 150 young leaders who have participated in the AIYD to date, a number of delegates have been qualified lawyers. Many of these delegates have worked in corporate law practices and have had experience working with Australian and Indian clients in cross-border transactions. In addition, a number of these lawyers have policy interests in the Australia-India bilateral relationship.
You have recently co-founded an organisation which aims to promote collaboration between young entrepreneurs in Australia and India. Can you please tell us a bit more about this?
In collaboration with two former AIYD delegates, I am building a platform that will encourage young Australian and Indian entrepreneurs to collaborate on projects. The organisation, “Crosshack”, is still in its planning phase and we hope to roll it out in 2016.
Essentially, Crosshack will bring together groups of entrepreneurs, designers and other young professionals from Australia and India who will meet in Australia or India and collaborate on innovative ideas to build next generation products and services. These ideas will be pitched at an annual conference and it is our hope that Crosshack will lead to collaboration between young entrepreneurs from both countries.
Since leaving Amarchand, you have founded an advisory practice called Australia India Advisory, can you please tell us more about this.
Running an advisory practice, I assist Australians to better understand business opportunities in Asia, particularly in India. I currently advise numerous Australian organisations (from start-ups to listed companies), assisting them with their entry and expansion into India. I have represented Australian companies across a variety of sectors, including education, energy and resources, professional services and technology.
What advice would you give a law student or a fresh law graduate in order to succeed as a corporate lawyer?
I think the key to success as a corporate lawyer are similar to that of any young professional in the professional services industry. While technical legal skills are important, nowadays the ability to clearly grasp difficult legal concepts and explain them in a concise way is only the first step. As a young lawyer, one has to be hungry to learn (both in terms of legal knowledge and other “soft-skills”). While it is important to work hard, it is equally important to “work smart” and learn the tricks of the trade from those more senior to you. The fantastic thing about starting out your career as a corporate lawyer is that you can see how many businesses operate across various industries – how they succeed and how (and why) they fail. I think it is important for a young lawyer to always try and see the bigger picture and constantly ask questions – by doing so, a seemingly mundane task like reviewing hundreds of documents in a due diligence process may be more rewarding in the long run.
What advice would you give to Indian Law Grads who want to make a career as a Lawyer practicing across borders?
My overarching advice would be to go for it! There is an increasing amount of opportunities for lawyers to gain international experience, even from within India. International transactions often involve either international clients or foreign counsel (or both) and you can learn a lot from the manner, professionalism and processes followed by these international lawyers.
If you have an opportunity to practice abroad during your career, you should take advantage of the experience. The Indian corporate law industry is really competitive and international experience can set you apart from your peers. Applying for positions abroad can be difficult and the standards of applications and interviews are very high – invest enough time in your applications and résumés and seek advice from others who have worked abroad. If successful, work hard and learn as much as you can while working across borders.
Akshath Goyal graduated from the National University of Juridical Sciences in 2012. Just after graduating he worked at the Intellectual Property firm Anand & Anand, and thereafter at Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas and Co. He is passionate about Intellectual Property and has interned and worked in IP related matters since qualification. He is currently the Assistant Legal Manager at a PayU Payments Pvt. Ltd.
In this interview, he talks to us about:
His experience at WBNUJS
The importance of clarity, networking, and hard-work
The experience of working in big firms and start-ups
How to prepare yourself for the profession beyond the first placement
How would you introduce yourself, given that most of our readers are law aspirants, lawyers-in-the-making & young lawyers?
I am a first generation lawyer and I graduated from WBNUJS. Post-graduation, I have worked with IP boutique firms, full service firms, and now as a counsel for a fin-tech start up company. Over the course of my relatively short career so far, though it feels like a lifetime of work, I have had the privilege of working on subjects/ areas that I enjoy with some of the smartest people in the fraternity.
What interest or influence propelled you to pursue Law as a career? What other options were you considering apart from Law and how did you make the final decision?
Growing up in a family of Army doctors, I was neither exposed to law nor did I grow up with any innate disposition towards the same. Prompted by my nervousness with the onset of college admissions, I spoke to my parents, teachers, counsellors, etc. most of whom, surprisingly, suggested that I try law.
I assume one of the major reasons for that was the Law School Entrance being the only exam that tested General Knowledge and Logic for under grad admissions, and being in my school’s quiz team, they assumed that I would have an edge. I then spoke to a few seniors of mine from school, who were doing their legal studies from Bangalore and Hyderabad, and they were very encouraging. So I took the entrance exam for NUJS, which used to be held in January back then, and even before my board exams started I had gotten an admission result. That pretty much sealed it and I was off to Calcutta.
I did think of medicine as a career option, primarily because my father is a Doctor, but once I realised that the Medical entrance exam involved extensive rote learning of facts I realised it wasn’t my cup of tea and that law just seemed to be a more appealing option for me.
You pursued your Law from the WBNUJS. How would you describe the experience? Would you like to do anything differently if given the chance?
My time spent at Law school was, without doubt, the happiest 5 years of my life. Calcutta was an excellent city to study in and NUJS had a lot of extremely smart and interesting people. Being a tiny campus with a small student body, you invariably ended up knowing almost everyone and befriending people not just from your batch but from batches above and below yours, which provided for a rich and diverse learning experience.
I essentially used law school as a platform to explore my interests in law. I mooted, debated, wrote papers, joined societies and committees, conducted events and even played football for my batch team (I still think that’s my greatest achievement in college). I tried my hand at everything law school had to offer and loved every bit of it.
The one thing that I wish had done differently was maybe focus on my grades a bit more. Unfortunately, despite being one of the best law schools in India, NUJS did not have the best faculty and the entire teaching system was geared towards rewarding rote learning rather than actual legal knowledge and acumen and I think that was one of the reasons why I just never did well academically. Looking back, I probably should have been less stubborn and made the best out of the system that was available. I also regret taking Elective courses simply based on what would appeal to potential recruiters, I now wish that I had taken those that I had genuine interest in and wanted to learn about.
How did you perform on a purely academic scale? Which disciplines did you find especially engaging and challenging? What was the reason for the same?
On a purely academic scale, I don’t think I did all that well. I could have definitely done better, but I was left extremely disappointed with the teaching system there. We, of course, had some fantastic professors such as M.P. Singh, Ruchira Goswami, Shamnad Basheer and Anirban Mazumdar, all of whom who made a lot of effort in their lectures, but overall the system left much to be desired leaving a lot of us feeling a bit disappointed.
I enjoyed my IP and Legal history lessons the most. In fact it was because of the fantastic set of IP professors at NUJS during my time there that I ended up choosing the field as my career.
Having said that, grades obviously are an indicator of performance but beyond my first college arranged recruitment interview my grades haven’t really been a factor in my legal journey so far. Once you’re in an organisation and in the industry in general, your work and skills count for more than your grades. Yes, getting good grades makes it easy to get that first job or get you that first interview but beyond that it’s your knowledge, handwork and passion for the subject counts.
How did you build a CV which could offset your academic performance?
Grades only form a part of your application. The CGPA system unfortunately is a very unforgiving one. Abad semester and the math goes against you. Even though I started progressively improving my academic performance after my second year, overcoming the deficit created due my prior performances turned out to be extremely difficult. I would assume that’s where my extensive participation in extra-curricular activates and rigorously pursuing internships helped me off set my academic performance. The fact that I had mooted, wrote and presented papers in India and abroad and organised legal seminars and talks probably tilted the decision in my favour. Having said this, I would also like to advise law students, who are in the same boat as I was, to not underestimate the power of networking. Talk to your seniors, your professors, your friends in other law schools, actively seek advice and recommendations, etc. Most of my internships came because I wrote to people and spoke about my interests and why I wanted to work with them.
Everyone sends a CV and a generic two liner when applying, what will separate you is the fact that your letter should be able to effectively convey why you want to work with the firm or a particular partner, something that you will only get if you invest time and effort into researching an organisation and then choosing to work with them rather than just applying to the big names.
By all means, apply to the big 6 but know why you want to work with them, which practise area of theirs fascinates you and why. Once you do the basic leg work and convey the same effectively, I don’t see any reasons why firms will not be glad to have you on board.
Please share with us your experience of participating in in the Surana and Surana Corporate Moot. Did the same help you find your area of interest?
(Akshath’s team won the runners-up position at the Surana and Surana Corporate Moot)
I believe that I owe whatever success I had as a mooter to my seniors and team mates from college. I was extremely fortunate that I had a supportive team who never lost faith in me and we ended up working well together and reached the finals of the competition. Since I hadn’t really studied corporate law before the moot, the experience helped me gain confidence in my research skills and ability to understand and solve complex problems without any formal training in the subject.
Since I did the moot in my first year, it really was too early for it to have an impact on my choice of corporate law as a career. I did, however, enjoy researching the problem.
What interest led you to write research papers? What research techniques did you adopt and what focal questions did you ask in order to write such a paper?
(Akshath co-authored a paper titled ‘Freedom of Modern Media & Privacy’ which was published by the University of Thailand.)
Technology and its interplay with law was always something that fascinated me. Which is why when an opportunity to contribute to an international journal came up, I grabbed it with both hands. The fact that I was then invited to Thailand to present the paper was just a fantastic experience. Besides this, I have also co-authored papers on Sustainable Tourism and the Impact of International Trade and its impact on the environment.
I really didn’t follow a particular theme with my articles, I simply worked on issues that fascinated me at different points of time.
Could you tell the readers about your internships, how you searched and applied for them, the experience and diversity of work you received a chance to engage in, the development it led to?
Internships were something that I was very careful about. Having decided that I wanted to practise IP laws, I worked in firms with extensive IP work. Even when I did intern in full service firms like Amarchand or Karanjawala, I ensured that I worked on IP disputes and transactions.
You worked as an Associate at Anand&Anand in Noida. What was your work profile like and how did you secure that job?
Since I wanted to be an IP lawyer, Anand and Anand was an obvious choice. I spoke to my professor, Mr. Basher, who had previously worked at Anand and he had only good things to say about the firm- its culture and practise. Once I had a general sense of the firm, then it was all a matter of applying and interviewing with the firm. Luckily, the firm liked my previous work experiences in the field and took me in.
Being the biggest IP firm in the country, Anand provided me with an opportunity to work on some fantastic matters for some high profile clients. Being surrounded by some of the best IP practitioners in the country was an insanely enriching experience and ensured that I built a solid foundation.
You then went on to work as an Associate at Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas & Co, Delhi. (SAM & Co.) What prompted this shift and what was the nature of your work?
While Anand was a great place to learn, as with all boutique firms, your role tends to get highly specific and specialised. I personally felt that it was too early for me to specialise in one part of IP. I wanted to not just work on the contentious side of IP but also on the transactional side of it. That’s where SAM & Co. with its massive corporate practise and international clientele was the best choice. At the firm, I was exposed to the various aspects of IP practise such as technology transfer agreements, comprehensive IP Protections mechanisms, Patent litigation, Regulations governing Technology and IP valuation etc. all which prepared me for my next role as counsel for fin-tech start up.
What qualities do you think a lawyer needs to possess beyond pure numbers on paper? What advice can you provide for a more holistic learning process to attain goals?
Look don’t get me wrong, numbers help, having great grades gives the employers the confidence that at least you have the basics sorted and that they’re not wasting their time interviewing you. However, having said that, I think one of the biggest qualities a lawyer can possess is having an insatiable hunger for knowledge and information. Don’t just stick to the course material, read things that interest you, talk to people who have been in organisations that you see yourself in.
I think one of the best things about having a five year college life is that it gives you ample time to figure out what your interests are. Honestly, my only recommendations to the current bunch of students would be to use this time to understand what you want to do and not where you want to be. Moot, debate, travel, network, and use all the tools available to understand what you want to do and why you want to do it.
Don’t follow the herd if you know you’re not like them. Understand your strengths and leverage them in your favour, figure out your weaknesses and work on them. Take courses not because they are scoring, but because they interest you (if they happen to be both, then it’s a jackpot). Pursue internships not because they will look good on your CV but because you genuinely want to work in those organisations. When I was interning in Amarchand, I was initially placed in the Projects team but I knew that I wasn’t something I liked. I enjoyed IP and so I spoke to the HR department and they were more than happy to accommodate me and because I had already worked with the Partner at AMSS before, getting the shift from Anand to AMSS was extremely smooth.
In 2015, you left SAM and Co, to work as an Assistant Legal Manager for PayU Payments. Could you tell us a bit about PayU and the nature of your work? What prompted the shift?
Like I mentioned before, the interplay of law and technology was always something that fascinated me and there is no better industry to watch this relationship unfold than the fin-tech industry.A law firm just cannot provide you with the kind of exposure that a start up can. To be able to sit with the Product Team and conceive and tweak consumer products, to help market the same to your customers, to be part of business strategies of a young company was something that really got me excited.
At PayU, my work is more than that of a traditional lawyer. At a firm, your job is mostly restricted to legal and regulatory advisory work, but in a company your mandate is so much more. Not only do you have to ensure the product is compliant with the existing legal and regulatory framework, but you also need to figure out how to tweak it in cases where it is not. Plus, by joining a start up, you get to be a part of something from the very beginning and gain a sense of ownership unlike any firm experience.
Could you describe your journey from your first job to the present one and how they’ve contributed to your knowledge and skill set? What has been absolutely memorable through this period?
Well as mentioned before, each of my jobs focussed on developing a certain skill set which I felt was necessary for me to develop as a lawyer. Since my first job was a boutique firm, it helped me strengthen my basics in the field. My job in a full service firm helped me use those basics to further expand my knowledge base. Finally at my in house job, I’ve been finally able to use my acquired skills and knowledge to work in an industry that fascinates me and challenges me on aspects of not just law but business as well.
The fact that I have worked at some of the best firms in the country, under some of the smartest people in the industry, and had the opportunity to work in a field that I wanted to has been the best part. I have always tried to work in places that have fascinated me and so far its going well.
Which area of law do you think, personally, has the maximum capacity to develop over the coming years and why do you think so?
At the risk of sounding biased, I think that IP is the most fascinating field of law. It’s still developing in the country and with all the technological revolution that’s going on around us, IP will start becoming more valuable to companies than traditional tangible assets and that’s when good IP counsels will be extremely sought after. In fact, in the mature jurisdictions of US and EU, patent litigation is one of the most lucrative areas of practise and I see no reason why India will not follow suit.
What is a typical day of work like for you? What interests do you possess outside of the sphere of the workplace?
Again, the good thing about working in a start-up is that there is no such thing as a typical work day or work profile. Your day can range from working on internal policies for the company, to sitting with the product team and brainstorming on new ideas, or even to negotiating agreements with your business partners, vendors, auditors or your outside counsels. So there’s always a lot going on and it’s always exciting and engaging.
What is your advice to students in order to strike the right balance in law school life?
My advice to law students would be to use their time to figure out their interests and passions. After that, everything becomes a lot clearer and achievable. Study hard but college should also be about stepping outside your comfort zone. So, join societies, organise events, moot, debate, quiz, dance, etc., because these things play an extremely important role in shaping who you are as an individual, and while grades will help you get your first interview, the rest will help you succeed in life.
Lastly, what makes you believe that you are not a one-shot wonder, or just a lucked out by chance lawyer? What message do you have for our readers?
Quite honestly, I don’t think I am a one-shot wonder. I say this because I refuse to believe that only the top 10 students in a class can make good lawyers. I went to a college where only 100 kids out of the 25,000 who apply are selected. Almost all of those who end up there are extremely intelligent and motivated individuals with their own inherent strengths and weaknesses, and almost everybody from the college is doing well. So career success isn’t a monopoly for those 10 rank holders. Sure, it makes life easier to get that first job, but after that it’s all a level playing field. That’s where your passion, work ethic, knowledge and networking skills come into play. The simple fact is that the harder you work the luckier you get.
So just because you didn’t get the grades doesn’t mean that your career is over, because 6 months down the line nobody cares about your grades. What they do care about is your work ethic and dedication, and once you have that there’s nothing that’s going to stop you from achieving your goals.
Pooja Terwad graduated in B.L.S.LL.B from Mumbai University in 2012. Thereafter, she went for LL.M from Jindal Global Law School. She got an excellent opportunity to visit Maurer School of Law and work there as a Research Associate for a semester as a part of a fully paid scholarship programme from JGLS.
She is a legal practitioner with expertise in Consumer Law, recently she founded Nivaran Online, a platform which proposes to end all consumer disputes. Let’s talk with her today on National Consumers Rights Day find what drives her to such social initiatives.
Tell us a bit about yourself.
I am a Mumbai girl, from an exceptionally well-educated family. Law is something I did not choose, but it happened by chance. It was only after working for a few years that I realised Law is my true calling. I have been associated with NGOs like Cheshire Home, Indian Development Foundation, and others since I joined Law. Working with the under-privileged made me stronger and determined as an Individual. The consistency I have seen amongst differently abled population has given me the courage to walk a little far and choose a way that is less travelled.
How do you recall your graduation and LL.B days?
I have been an average student throughout my schooling and LL.B days. It was only the desire to achieve something above average and to do something different than most of the law graduates, which got me into Nivaran. The experience of volunteering with Asia’s largest consumer organization, Mumbai Grahak Panchayat, and exposure to intern at Consumer International, Malaysia was a boon. All this experiences further resulted in Nivaran.
Tell us about your professional qualifications.
I completed my B.L.S.LL.B from Mumbai University in 2012. After that, I went for my LL.M from O.P. Jindal Global University, New Delhi. I have been awarded a gold medal for my academic performance and another gold medal as an award for the Law Leadership programme.
I was fortunate to have got an opportunity to go to the United States of America on full scholarship, for pursuing my semester. After, I came back I worked with the Additional Solicitor General of India, Mr. Anil Singh at Bombay High Court. I also had the opportunity to work on serious matters like Adarsh Scam, Campa Cola, etc. under his guidance.
It was in January 2015 that I started my law firm and at the same time began volunteering for Mumbai Grahak Panchayat under the mentorship of renowned consumer activist and Lawyer, Mr. Shirish Deshpande. I am thankful to him for the opportunity to attend a 14-day internship programme at Consumers International, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. The guidance of Ms. Indrani Thuraisingham, Head of CI, South Asian Region, has also been very helpful to me while setting up the process at Nivaran Online.
Please tell us about how you got the USA scholarship, and what all did it cover? What did you get to do in the States?
I should thank Jindal Global Law School for my USA scholarship. I was enrolled in the two years’ LL.M course and had a keen interest in Intellectual Property Laws. I was the topper of the first year LL.M at JGLS, and hence, our Director chose to send me to the US for a semester at Maurer School of Law, Indiana University, Indianapolis. Although not an Ivy League college, this is one of the best public universities in the States with the most renowned IPR professors teaching there.
There I got an opportunity to study Patent Law from Prof. Mark Janis, who is an immensely learned and globally renowned IPR attorney. My scholarship covered my entire tuition fees and a Monetary Scholarship of USD 4000. Apart from that, I also received a paid Research Associate position at the University.
Also, I always wanted to work while studying and experience the high of being financially independent. I got the chance to do so while in the States. I did end up doing small jobs in the US and also worked as a Research Associate to professors. It was quite exciting.
Did you think of pursuing your profession at the United States?
More than professional reasons, I had personal reasons to come back. I am the only child, and I was not very keen to leave my parents alone in India in their aging years. And, I am strongly of the belief that, Indians have an incredible potential to transform the country with their innovation. It’s just that we need to overlook the Dollars, and have a strong sense of belief in our potential.
What inspired you to start something like NIVARAN?
While working for Asia’s largest NGO for consumer issues, Mumbai Grahak Panchayat, and working for their Consumer Guidance cell, I realised that NGOs in India work on a micro-economic platform. They do not have the expert resource to work for a single consumer, and get the dispute resolved as a matter of responsibility. Indian consumers needed an organization, where expert legal advice could be provided by lawyers. However, the same should be given at an affordable price. I wanted to establish an institution, where every “justifiably cheated consumer” gets a resolution without going to the courts.
Why do you think Society needs a platform like NIVARAN?
Most of the times, an Indian consumer is left with two choices. Either “GO TO THE COURT” or “GIVE UP ON HIS RIGHT”. I feel both of them are neither viable nor justified. When the loss is of Rs. 25,000 to 50,000, a consumer doesn’t want to go to the court, as he will end up spending much more than the loss amount on lawyers and the judicial system. And ultimately, he gives up on his rights silently. I wish to change this scenario. Every consumer should get a resolution under every circumstance.
What is your role in Nivaran Online?
I am a founder at Nivaran Online, and I look into the Operation and Legal Area.
What is Nivaran’s operational model? Where do you see Nivaran in five years down the line?
With the kind of pendency and delay in Consumer courts, I wish to make Nivaran Online, a centralised platform for resolution of disputes, where brands, as well as consumers, operate on amicable grounds. We have associated with several Consumer NGOs in India, especially the ones founded by people who believe in swift resolution and are open to trying something new, rather than going the monotonous way. They divert consumer complaints from their areas, and we in return, help them with Honorary Funds so that they can further consumer welfare. I wish to tie-up with Organizations, Governmental and Non-Governmental, and ultimately provide the best aid to consumers.
How difficult has it been as a litigator, have you ever faced any gender bias in the legal profession?
Fortunately, I have never suffered any such bias till date. I have been lucky to have met people who judged me by my credentials, rather than my gender. I believe women have proved themselves beyond all doubts. It is true that we do not have many women entrepreneurs in the start-up world. But, male-dominated professions have never discouraged a woman from establishing her identity. So I am highly optimistic, that my gender will never be a hurdle in moving ahead.
Don’t you think starting up with Nivaran can affect your mainstream profession?
I have been in litigation for quite some time. I have my full-service law firm, in the name of Pooja Terwad & Associates. We were fortunate to have established ourselves pretty well without any previous legal background. However, I was always dissatisfied when I appeared in Consumer Courts.
Even in my individual capacity, I ensured that before we go to the court, we try to settle the matter. I also encouraged consumers to argue on their own, if they could not afford lawyers’ fees. But, the highly technical procedures were often discouraging. So, I thought of moving apart from the monotonous and commercialized structure of Courts, help consumers resolve their disputes and charge them nominal fees, which did not exceed 10 percent of the loss value at any cost. So, I chose to do what courts do, however, without going to the court.
What would be your message to our readers?
I feel Indian lawyers are bogged down by competition, all they care is about “packages”. Very few of them wish to experiment, innovate and come up with something exciting which will help the society as a whole.
Our youth I notice is pressurized to such an extent, with stereotypical opinions that he fears to try his hand at something new, something challenging. We are scared to get out of our comfort zone; we are afraid to struggle. We are afraid of failure, not because it would affect us, but because the society might not accept us with a failure tag. I feel we have taken the Society way too seriously. It’s time we do what we feel is going to make us happy and moreover do what we are meant to do.
I would only urge to all of my friends that we have the potential; we just need to be creative and an out-of-the-box thinker.
Sajai Singh graduated in B.Sc from St. John’s College, Agra and later qualified in law from Delhi University in 1990. Sajai is currently a partner at J. Sagar & Associates and the Chairperson of the firm’s Corporate Commercial Practice. Having experience spanning over more than 25 years, Sajai is an acclaimed transactional lawyer. Sajai has been the President of the International Technology Lawyers Association and is a member of the American Bar Association. In this interview he shares with us:
His college life, education and becoming a partner at JSA.
His experience as the past president of International Technology Lawyers Association, and also the field of Technology law.
The work entailed in his position and the field of corporate law dealt with.
How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers, most of whom are aspiring lawyers?
I am a first generation lawyer. My growing up years were spent moving from one cantonment to another as my father was in the Indian Army. Growing up in the army background bought a sense of discipline and commitment in me. I changed schools every two years if not earlier and my first exposure to living in a big city was when my father was posted to London and I joined him after completing my 12th Board exams, for one year.
Could you tell us a little about your college life and why you decided to pursue a legal career?
In college I studied Science. Chemistry was my favourite subject. Post College I studied Business Management and had an interest in International Trade. As I read more about International Trade, I realised the interplay and the key role played by Law. It was the glue that made business possible in an organised and harmonious manner. Without the principles of law governing every aspect of business, a business transaction, like may others, would be anarchic. We had to keep referring to the ‘rules’ to answer any response to a ‘why’, a ‘how’ or a ‘what’. This was interesting, and at the same time intriguing. That’s when I got interested in study of Law. Subsequently, I joined the Campus Law Centre, Delhi University.
You completed degrees in B.Sc and PGD Business Management before pursuing law. Have these courses helped you in your work?
Not just my qualification in Science and Business Management but also my secondary education in the Kendriya Vidyalaya system helped my overall growth and awareness, eventually assisting my study and practice of Law. Science taught me technical skills, while my Business Management background developed my analytical skills. My multidisciplinary exposure helps me understand the needs of my corporate clients better.
What kind of activities did you take part in while at law school?
Writing has always been a passion for me. While studying Law in the 80’s, mooting and debating opportunities were fewer compared to today. We made the most of the opportunities that came our way. Students today are blessed to have far more opportunities and avenues open to them. And they are not limited by geography.
Did you do many internships while at law school? In retrospect, how important were these internships in shaping your career?
Internship opportunities were few during my Law School days. I was, however, working while studying law. My passion for writing got me an opportunity in a leading advertising agency and I used to work in the copy department of the same. I also did part time work at Doordarshan and All India Radio. From the money I earned, I paid my rent and met my other needs. While the money I earned was not much, things were simpler, choices were scarce and my needs were simple. It were these life experiences that helped me realise the value of hard work.
Having participated in a number of international programmes and workshops, what would you say were you biggest take-aways from each?
I feel international exposure not only builds confidence for people from developing nations but also allows one to understand how to function in a flat world. The learning is both ways between developing and developed economies; between modern and ancient cultures; and between different professions. I have been lucky to have done courses in Wharton and with the Euromoney Institute. But the single most impactful experience for me was with the Centre of International Legal Studies/(CILS) Austria. I did a Certification Program in International Practice with them. This program took me to Dallas, where I spent 4 months working with the US law firm, Jackson & Walker. This time was an eye opener and prepared me for my forth coming move to set up open and run the Bangalore office of JSA in 1996.
You have worked with J. Sagar & Associates (JSA) for 23 years now. Can you tell us the best and worst things about working in a corporate environment in general, and JSA in particular?
I started my career as a Litigator. I moved to Corporate Law after 2 years of Litigation and Arbitration practice. I would recommend all future corporate lawyers to have some exposure to Litigation and the Court system before they shift work exclusively in the Corporate Law field. My tip on this point for aspiring lawyers would be to spend as much time in the Court Registry as they can. This exposure is key to understanding process and how the backbone of the justice system works. Contentious work develops quick thinking, contextualising and research ability, which is very useful for a Corporate Lawyer. While exciting in its own way, it may take time for Corporate Law work to replace the adrenal rush of arguing a matter before judge.
My Experience in Corporate law field is limited to JSA. Therefore, I would not be able to comment in general about corporate law firms. JSA has been a very International, forward looking and broad canvas exposure for me. Its institutional character, ethical rooting and transparent interactions make it a very happy and comfortable environment to practice law in.
As the Chair of JSA’s Corporate Commercial Practice, how do you recall your career traversed to bring you to your current position? What is your current work profile like?
Since 1992, when I joined JSA, some months after it started, I worked extensively for multinational clients setting up business in India. Those were the years when India was slowly liberalising its economy and JSA was working closely with its overseas clients to try and maximise value for them as a part of their India entry strategy. Other than foreign exchange regulations, the other laws that I initially worked with were Company Law and Contract Law. With years of focus on these statutes I had a background which led to me being made the Chair of JSA’s Corporate Commercial Practice. It is my endeavour to continuously expand this practice including in areas that I am passionate about and feel will become strong practice areas in their own right very soon. These are Employment Law, Anti-corruption Law, Data Protection & Cyber Security. I am doing a fair amount of work in both these areas. In terms of my work profile, in addition to doing billable work, I am also expected to create a business development strategy, training schedules and curriculum, recruitment and HR needs and implement them for the overall growth of the practice.
Please tell us how do you approach work with regard to management and delegation.
As with any progression it is important to nurture the younger generation and allow it to grow develop and play a larger role. I follow the same principle in my practice. I have always been surrounded by brilliant young lawyers who have worked closely with me in delivering extraordinary service to clients. I believe in delegation. I believe in trusting my colleagues and their ability. At the same time I do feel a challenging is a good way to obtain the best performance. Unless a matter requires involved supervision or is evolving with time, I tend to keep my role limited to supervision and emerging essentials.
Tell us about an interesting case you handled recently. What is your favourite part in the life cycle of a given matter or case?
One of the recent anti-corruption investigations, that I worked on, involved out-of-the-box time critical thinking. Most of the challenges came from the human element rather than from a law or a regulator. And it is the ingenuity of the human mind that emerges as the most fascinating aspect of any transaction. Unravelling and anticipating this aspect is my favourite part. Using technology as an able tool has proven to be a wonderful experience.
How did you develop an interest in Technology law?
(Sajai was the immediate past-president of the International Technology Lawyers Association, which is a first for any Asian.)
I have always been interested in new areas of law, which evolve with the development of Society. Be it Television Broadcast Law, Cable Television Law, Copyright Law, or information Technology Law, I have seen all of them evolve before my eyes and these have been fascinating experiences. I am sure there will be other and newer areas of law that will grab my fancy in the coming years. I look forward to that.
Please give us some practical insight into the Information Technology sector in India juxtaposed with the same in the global context.
From being the back office of the world, India today provides the world cutting edge consulting and advisory support. I see entrepreneurs come up with new ideas and technological breakthrough on an encouragingly frequent basis. I do hope India would evolve into an IT product, Software and Patent creations hub in the near future.
Could you please provide us with some context in regards your long standing association with the American Bar Association?
Since most of my clients were American Corporates doing business in India, I had to closely work with US lawyers and US General Counsel. These interactions led to me being invited to speak at several Seminars and Conferences, including those organised by PLC, IBA and ABA. These and many other associations welcomed me and my thoughts into their fold.
ABA seemed a natural fit for my practice as it helped me understand the US legal landscape. My clients operated in this space and I had to keep abreast with it if I wanted to adequately service my clients, Thus began my association with ABA.
Please tell us a bit more about the Private Equity and Venture Capital Committee that you are the Chair of.
As a part of my leadership of the PE/VC Committee, I collated International experiences, regulations and understanding to what may be considered a cross border phenomenon – PE/VC investments. These collated thoughts, updates and experiences were presented to the Committee members at meetings and online.
You conducted skill development courses on Negotiation and Transactional skills at the NLS Bangalore. What is the structure and curicula of this course?
I like to teach and work with students. They have so many new ideas and life is looked at with different perspectives. As a part of this interest I taught at the National Law School, University of India Bangalore. Now due to time constraint I’m only able to conduct shorter skill development programs and not teach semesters as in the past. My Negotiation Skills and Transaction Skills Courses were focused on practical development of the students rather than on teaching theory. I wanted to provide my students with an opportunity to understand how negotiations are conducted in practice and the life cycle of a transaction with several live examples exercises and fact patterns. My students got an opportunity to role play in a controlled environment which I hoped would prepare them for the practice of corporate law.
I also conduct legal workshops in different universities across the world as a part of my education initiative for ITechLaw. The recent ones that I conducted were in Colombia, Ecuador, Peru and Chile. I hope to conduct one in Cuba next year.
What advice would you like passed on to an aspiring lawyer?
My advice to any aspiring lawyer is to remain curious, ask questions and try to learn one new thing every day!
Malek-ul-Ashtar Shipchandler, a 2014 batch graduate of ILS, Pune, is currently an Associate of Securities, Financial Regulatory, Corporate Law at Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas, having already worked with Economic Laws Practice (ELP) for a year.
In this interview, he speaks to us about:
The significance of the Company Secretary (CS) course;
The experience of a Vacation Scheme at Clifford Chance;
The relevance of certification courses; and
The ability to continue with legal writing even after joining a law firm.
Would you say that high school experiences led you to choose law?
(Malek was part of the Student Council at school and participated in Model United Nations (MUNs) simulations, both as a delegate and Secretary General, and attended the Global Young Leaders Conference (GYLC) in Washington D.C and New York.)
These experiences were definitely instrumental, coupled with encouragement from my family and teachers who saw in me an aptitude for oration and argumentation. I chose to be a commerce student in my penultimate and final year at school, perhaps because I was not exceptional at science related subjects but did fairly well in commerce related subjects such as economics and business administration studies; towards the end of my final year at school, the choice for me was either finance or law.
Please share with our readers your experience at law school. What kind of activities did you participate in? How did you develop an interest for moot courts?
Studying at ILS Law College was an excellent experience for someone who thrives in an atmosphere wherein you are not given a map of how to go about grooming yourself as a budding lawyer; except for the compulsory lectures, one is absolutely free to pursue other diplomas/courses, peruse books and journals in one of the best law libraries in India, participate in advocacy competitions, get involved in organizational activities, articulate views for publication in law journals, contribute to academic discussions post lecture in various “cells”, work with a law firm or a counsel, or simply do nothing and enjoy the cold coffee at the ILS Canteen! It has been an inspiring and humbling experience being taught by some luminaries in their own subjects, interacting with and being guided by seniors who have achieved milestones in their careers, and studying along with some stellar students who are currently not only doing well in law, but other fields as well.
I primarily participated at intra-college and national moot courts and contributed to discussions at post-college “cells”. As a fresher and sophomore, I remember watching some brilliant seniors argue at moot courts and parliamentary debates – this sparked the keenness in me to participate in moot courts myself. Watching seniors argue at moot courts also helped me to not only understand the basics of fundamental laws like contract, torts and constitution but also gave me a chance to learn and imbibe in myself moot crafting skills such as presentation of facts, articulation of arguments, modulation of voice, rapport building with, and responding to, questions raised by the judges and rebutting contentions put forth by the opponent team.
How did you decide to pursue the CS course? In the long run, do you think that this degree gives one an edge over other law school graduates?
(During Malek’s second year at law school he started pursuing the Company Secretary (CS) course.)
Pursuing CS came as a natural decision due to my inclination towards finance as well as corporate law, coupled with the fact that I had time on hand after attending lectures. Having studied for and attempting CS examinations, I am of the opinion that apart from giving you a flavour of basic concepts in company law, securities law, banking-finance law and taxation law, the way the ICSI frames its exam papers is far more objective, and challenges your legal cognitive, as compared to mere rote-writing. The CS course helps one to understand the inter-play between different corporate laws, apart from teaching how to read and interpret basic company financials – a skill very useful for corporate lawyers who interact with Promoters, CFOs and GCs, conduct diligences and draft commercial agreements.
Do you believe ADR competitions are important, but are shadowed by the more popular moot courts in law schools? How do you think this could be changed?
(Malek has also extensively participated in negotiation and client counselling competitions, nationally and internationally, and thereafter even judged such competitions.)
There is no question of one advocacy activity “shadowing” the other. Moot courts and ADR related activities, I believe, are complimentary to each other in holistically grooming a budding law student. Most traditional law schools in India prefer the modus of teaching only by lecturing (rather an encouraging participative discussions or simulation learning), and that too on aspects necessary for examination purposes.
While lectures on CPC and CrPC, and sessions on moot courts, allow students to imbibe the skill of argumentation, cross-examining and drafting, it unfortunately does not hone the art of personal communication, explaining the law to laymen in simple terms, understanding and syncing the clients’ expectations with legal modalities, and devising commercially viable solutions. These skills, I believe are indispensable for any lawyer, be it a litigator or a transactional lawyer.
Most law students associate advocacy competitions as synonymous with moots courts and mock trials, perhaps because the number of negotiation or client counselling competitions that happen in India are far lesser in comparison to the number of moot courts. Law schools and law firms need to collaborate together and initiate more of such ADR related activities and competition. From my experience of founding the first ever negotiation competition at ILS Law College, I can say that the inputs of practicing lawyers or GCs (as compared to professors) to such activities/competitions is crucial for the quality of the activity/competition.
You interned primarily at corporate law firms. Where did this inclination towards corporate law start from?
John Grisham may have had a role to play! On a more serious note, I actually started my internships learning at places known for litigation. My first internship was with Hariani & Co, followed by the chambers of the then Attorney General, the late Mr. Goolam Vahanvati. Being in the second and third year of law school, more than learning the law or the procedure, it was through these litigation related experiences that I understood research methodologies, articulation of thought on paper i.e. how to draft legal notes/memos and documents management – skills which eventually helped during my corporate law internships. I believe as a law student, for the initial years at least, one must try everything and not wear blinkers concentrating on either just “litigation” or “corporate”.
My inclination towards corporate law was sparked when I participated at the NLIU Juris Corp Moot Court Competition which gave me a chance, while researching on the moot problem, to identify and understand certain transactional nuances in securities and competition law which ultimately led to a dispute in court. I must admit that certain facets of litigation, such as argument drafting and strategy, really interest me; I am grateful that so far in my career, along with corporate-transactional work, I have been getting to do some work focussed on the Securities Appellate Tribunal and appearances before the Securities and Exchange Board of India.
You experienced a vacation scheme at Clifford Chance. Was it different from Indian law firm internships?
The experience can be comparable to internships offered by certain Indian law firms. Global firms such as Clifford Chance have very structured work experience schemes, almost like a course by itself, which involves learning and development of the Schemer through work assignments, attending in-house lectures, insights into the workings of different teams handling different practice areas and networking opportunities with the professionals at the firm. Firms such as Clifford Chance are driven by a philosophy of investing in their lawyers, right from the time one begins a training contract with them.
I would encourage the readers, that given a choice between doing a LL.M and taking up a training contract, the latter should be considered hands down; there is no better teacher of practicing law than actual work experience, given the fact that law we read while studying is often very different from how it operates/is applied in the real world.
You have scored a remarkable 99/100 in the FICCI’s certification course on Competition Laws and IP Rights. How far do you think these certification courses help a law student?
Most traditional law schools often do not have specialized laws as part of their curriculum and are therefore not taught, at least as a core subject. Certification courses facilitate the learning of specialized laws, and are generally designed in such a manner, that it can be undertaken simultaneously while continuing your regular college activities. While there is a culture among law students of enrolling in parallel courses early on, it might make more sense to wait until the 4th or 5th year (or 3rd year in case of a three-year program) to assess where exactly one’s inclination lies – this is possible after participating in advocacy competitions, doing internships or writing papers – avenues through which one can understand what it is like to “practice” the specialized law, and not merely “read” it. From a CV building point of view during law school, especially if you have applied to intern under a particular practice group, certification courses would be a plus.
Did you face difficulties in the beginning of your work at ELP? When did the transformation from a law student to a lawyer take place?
(After graduating from law school, Malek joined Economic Laws Practice (ELP) and worked there for over a year.)
It is only natural to feel challenged (not, “difficult”) when one moves from one life chapter to another viz. the academic chapter a.k.a “fun phase” to the professional a.k.a “real world phase”! That said, having interned previously at law firms and being a part of a great team headed by Mr. Suhail Nathani, made the transition for me as a student to a lawyer not only easy, but also memorable. Believe it or not, your perspective about practicing law is greatly impacted by your first job, team and senior.
Do you believe that drafting contracts, legal opinions and other legal documents is an essential skill that most law schools in India omit to teach their students?
I believe most law schools lay emphasis on teaching the principles of contract law as compared to actually teaching a student how to draft a contract. That said, law schools such as ILS Law College not only has a contract drafting competition but also has a subject on drafting which is taught by a renowned lawyer, Mr. Ajit Kulkarni – I still remember, his lectures were attended by non-ILS students as well as lawyers! Most traditional law schools, instead of asking students to take hand written notes of contract templates (which are otherwise available online), could consider equipping students with, and evaluating them on basic skills of drafting such as formatting, cross referencing and even proof-reading, and impart knowledge on aspects of stamp duty and registration – these are essential for drafting most contracts.
You are now an Associate at Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas, Mumbai. What is your work profile there? Could you share your experience at the firm so far?
A usual day for me at SAM involves team meetings, tending to client queries over phone call or email, preparation of memos/notes and drafting and reviewing of transaction related documents. We also advise on securities litigation matters, and as such, whenever required, we draft submissions to be made to the concerned authorities. Some transactions require me to work with other specialist teams in the firm, allowing me to benefit from their domain knowledge and experience. Besides encouraging regular interaction with the partners who have a plethora of experience and knowledge in their respective practice areas, the firm underscores the need for overall development of its lawyers and has implemented programs/policies where SAM lawyers share their opinions and experiences relating to a particular legislation and/or matter – this allows one to be up to date on contemporary legal developments and bake an opinion on certain contentious aspects – a must for any lawyer!
Do you think it is important for legal professionals and law students to make their presence felt online?
I believe, as will most people, that visibility is the key for growth in any profession. It would no doubt be helpful to reduce one’s time on social networking websites, and invest that time on professional networking websites such as LinkedIn.
How do you find the time to research and write legal articles? Could you share a few tips with our readers on how to go about legal writing?
Let me answer the question this way: I generally find time to write during early hours of the morning before work, or on a weekend, because writing helps me analyze cogently, organize logically, distil accurately, argue persuasively, cite knowledgeably, punctuate skilfully, and phrase smoothly, among other things. Some coveted blogs and forums also elicit the comments of experienced professionals and luminaries (either concurring or differing from the views expressed in the article) on the article, which is enlightening to read. I believe everyone has their own way of building their knowledge of the law and expressing their interpretation and application of it – legal writing is one such way which quite a few law graduates appear to adopt.
To the readers, I can share that, while writing, I tend to implement certain guidelines which appear in a publication of the American Bar Association: “…you must struggle to achieve simplicity—and learn to achieve it without oversimplifying. That’s a tall order in an intellectually challenging discipline like the law.
And it’s especially tall when you think of the overwhelming attraction that legalese presents to the average mind. With “pursuant to” and “assuming arguendo” and “hereinafter” and “inter alia”, you have ready-made shortcuts for feeling lawyerly. They’re like secret handshakes. They seem to make you a member of the club. Without them, you’ll feel like your pre–law-school self at a time when you may really want to feel a difference. Never mind that they typify low-grade legal writing.”
What is your message to young law students?
“Work until you no longer have to introduce yourself” is a mantra I endeavour to live by – try it!
Sagar Singamsetty did his undergraduate law studies from NALSAR University, Hyderabad in 2003 and his LL.M. in air and space law at the University of Leiden, the Netherlands, in 2006. Having a passionate interest in the highly niche field of air and space law, Sagar has, right since the beginning, fearlessly tread off the conventional track to do well in this field. It is because of this reason that he has continued to work for good firms and has climbed the ladder successfully, one step at a time. Currently the Senior International Legal Advisor for FedEx Express, he resides in Brussels, Belgium, he has also published a book on air and space law, ‘Contemporary Issues and Future Challenges in Air and Space law’ in 2011.
He talks to SuperLawyer about:
His life at law school and how he started inclining towards the field of air and space law
His decision to join the Leiden University to pursue Masters
His general advice to students interested in air and space law but fear pursuing it as it is a highly niche field
His experience at a variety of firms and his work profile in each of them
His take on how to balance work and family
His future plans
How would you introduce yourself to our readers?
I would introduce myself as an airplane lover. It is my love for airplanes that gives wind beneath my wings to excel. Aviation is close to my heart and I am lucky to work as in-house counsel in this fascinating sector for 10 years now. I wanted to become a pilot but someone above had a different path chosen for me. Looking back, I can only be happy about the decision to take up law as my profession.
What made you choose law as your profession? Is there anyone in your family who has been in the legal profession?
Law was never my preferred option. I always thought law is for the intellectuals. If not for my father’s intervention at that time, which I see as a master stroke from him, I would not have chosen law as my profession. I am the first person in my family to graduate with a law degree.
Tell us about life at law school. What subjects interested you the most while in law school?
(Sagar went to the NALSAR University, Hyderabad)
Being the first batch of Nalsar University, we had a great opportunity to build a legal institution of national repute. I am proud of what we did as Nalsarites over the years for the legal community in India and abroad. Yes, the first couple of years, infrastructure was very limited and resources were stretched to the maximum. Like in any new institution, the law school and its students had to go through an experimental phase that did raise questions, including the sustainability of the institution itself. Looking back, I can only say that the biggest advantage law schools like Nalsar University have is their students who come from all over the country. This brought a certain level of exposure which improved the overall experience of being in a national law school.
I was an average student in the class and was just trying my best to get through the routine – exams, papers, presentations and internships every semester. Arbitration law, contract and property law, law and poverty, international law (public and private) and international trade law are some subjects that had my attention. It was in my international law class that I learnt this specific area of law relating to aviation and space sector. In my 4th year of law school I decided to work in aerospace sector and I was confident that given an opportunity to take-off in this niche area, I will touch the skies.
How active were you in co-curricular and extracurricular activities? What kind of internships did you do as a law student? Did any of the internships have a special impact on you?
Let me tell you this. My first 2 years were gone in trying to understand what I was supposed to be doing in law school. Then in my 3rd year, there was some sense of direction but still no clarity. It was only in the 4th and 5th years of my law school life that I started realizing the need to do more. Yes, I had a few papers to my name; did few internal moots to taste what they are like; and presented a few papers at conferences and seminars. In terms of extracurricular activities, I was part of the Hospitality and Disciplinary Committees. Nothing to boast about!
When it came to internships, I made choices that helped me gain good experiences. I never missed an opportunity to do my internship along with studies. In each internship, starting with an NGO to a High Court Judge to practising senior lawyer in Supreme Court of India to a law firm that did aviation work, there was a lot to learn and experience outside the four walls of the law school and the law library. Of course, reading, understanding and applying legal principles to an issue at hand is important for us as lawyers. However, I observed that beyond these legal principles lay a fundamental aspect – the commitment to satisfy the requirements of a lawyer’s internal and external clients. The level of confidence you give to your client is a key performance indicator and this will determine your success as a lawyer (in-house or practising). This is a key take away point from all my internships in India and abroad (in UK and the Netherlands) and should remain a key take away point for any budding lawyer.
What was the work like at International Legal and Trade Consultants?
(Right after graduation from NALSAR, Sagar worked as a Legal Assistant at ILTC)
I had an offer from ILTC and Satyam Computers (now called Mahindra Satyam) during the on-campus recruitment at Nalsar University. I chose ILTC (head office in New York) because it was a small law firm with a focus on corporate law and immigration laws, and my idea was to leave the job after a year to do my higher studies at Leiden University. ILTC, headed by Mr. Madhu Yaskhi (former MP Congress Party), was planning to set-up their legal support services company (LPO provider) in Hyderabad. It turned out that I did less of legal work and more of letter writing for and on behalf of Mr. Yaskhi, who decided during my time at ILTC to join Indian politics. As a fresh graduate I used to wonder if that is what I am supposed to be do in my job! I have to say, looking back, that accidental experience is what I am doing today as a full-time job in my role as regulatory affairs counsel in Brussels, Belgium. As someone said to me once, in law profession every experience counts.
What made you decide to pursue Air and Space Law for your Masters? How did you decide upon Leiden University and what was your experience?
This decision did not take place overnight. First, my passion for aerospace led to a decision at Nalsar University to pursue this subject; second, I worked hard to get decent grades in international law related subjects and wrote research papers in space law; and third, my determination to contribute something to the field of law that is ignored by many had driven me to take up this challenging opportunity and I believed there was a lot to explore.
Only two universities (at that time), Leiden University and McGill University, offered a Masters level programme in air and space law. A European country was my preferred destination, therefore, McGill was immediately out of contest and I did not make an application as well. I learnt from my mentor and Head, Centre for Air and Space Law (CASL) at Nalsar University, Prof. Balakista Reddy, that some of the best teachers in this field of law are at the Institute of Air and Space Law, Leiden University. The program also gave an opportunity to do internship in aviation or space sector(s), which was a real bonus for a student to gain practical experience. So, Leiden University was without any doubt the best choice to pursue my studies in air and space law. Once I knew it will be Leiden University, I looked for scholarships available for Indian students. I was lucky to receive Huygens Scholarship from the Dutch government based on merit.
During my studies at Leiden University, I was accompanied by a group of passionate supporters of aerospace industry who came from various parts of the world. We all had fun during our studies but never got out of focus from the actual goal we had individually set for ourselves. I had the opportunity to represent Leiden at the Manfred Lachs Space Law Moot Court Competition and also got elected to be the President of the class for the year 2004-2005. So, I did more than what I expected of myself and my overall experience at Leiden University was simply ‘superb’. Let me also tell you that today, we have a strong Leiden alumni network around the world where we share knowledge, experience and also assist the younger batches to find internships (if lucky, a job opportunity too). I have no regrets about taking the decision to join Leiden University and choosing to live in the land of tulips, the Netherlands.
Most students who have an interest in the field of Air and Space Law hesitate to pursue Masters in this arena of international law owing to how niche it is, and how difficult it is to find jobs. What would you recommend to such students?
There is definitely a degree of uncertainty with these areas of practice. Lot of people thought I was mad when I told them that I am interested to pursue this field of law. First question or the only question was who is going to employ you? Will there be any scope for you to practice this law in India? There was no answer to the query except for my self-belief that my decision will not fail me.
Honestly, this is a difficult question to answer. Some term this as a super specialised area of law. In my opinion, areas like air and space law should not be seen in isolation. Yes, it is a niche area but if you combine this specialization with general subjects of law, like corporate law, commercial law, competition law, insurance law, tax law and others, the opportunities are endless.
To anyone who wishes to pursue higher studies, I strongly recommend working for minimum two to three years after their undergraduate studies. This allows them to gain the required experience (learn how law works in practice) and the time to better understand their own interests in the field of law. There will be a huge difference when one makes a decision to pursue higher studies after a few years of gaining some work experience.
For those who wish to pursue studies in the Netherlands, visit www.nuffic.nl to find out more about the courses and the scholarships that are available for students from India. Always remember that your rationale for choosing a university for higher studies should be either because 1) the course programme really interests you and you believe that the course will add value to your already existing knowledge (university ranking is not important here); or 2) the university is in tier 1 group. This means, the brand name and the alumni network will further your interests. Do not choose a university because someone told you or because of some ranking available online. It is an important decision in your life and make sure you evaluate all the options that are available to you and always try to get a scholarship even if it covers your costs partially.
How did you gain employment at AerCap Aviation Solutions? What was your experience here like?
(After graduating from Leiden University, Sagar worked at AerCap Aviation Solutions)
I got an internship opportunity at AerCap as a student of Leiden University, which later turned into a job in their contracts team. AerCap is an aircraft leasing company having their head office in the Netherlands with a fleet of over 1,000 owned and managed commercial aircraft. I was a senior member of the Contracts Department for the Asia-Pacific Region that handled complex, high-value lease contracts for the regional airline clientele. The nature of the job was very international and the legal issues spanned various jurisdictions, which made my experience in the aircraft leasing sector all the more worthwhile. Leasing and financing of aircraft involves a great deal of collaboration between tax, finance, insurance, risk and legal. This cross-functional dialogue enhanced my knowledge of commercial aviation business in general and expanded my opportunities beyond aircraft leasing sector. It was during this time I decided to take a transfer test to qualify as a Solicitor in UK, which I successfully passed.
You shifted to TNT Express. Why this move? What was the work like?
Leaving an exciting job at a company like AerCap was not easy for me. It was a difficult decision but a decision that I had to make to further my own career. TNT is an express company that delivers goods ranging from documents and parcels to palletised freight. TNT having its own fleet of aircraft and ground vehicles provided me with the opportunity to expand my legal horizon beyond aircraft leasing. Cargo (or specifically express cargo) isn’t something that comes across as a fancy sector to work for legal professionals. I took the job because I always wondered why people were just fond of passenger sector when transportation of goods is equally important for the growth of an economy. I started as a Legal Counsel where my primary responsibility was to draft and negotiate contracts for the Sales, IT and Procurement departments.
Given my aviation experience, I was later appointed as Senior Counsel at TNT Airways, the airline division of TNT Express. During this time, I worked on the purchase of B777 aircraft(s), wet leased and sub-leased aircraft, and aircraft maintenance agreements, amongst others things. Due to family reasons, I could not continue to work for the airline division and moved back into a different role in the head office of TNT. The role is completely different as I chose to become a Regulatory Affairs Manager for Europe dealing with Customs and Aviation Security related issues. In express cargo sector, customs and security issues are to be handled diligently to avoid any disruptions to the operations of the business. TNT was where I learnt about the express business and developed both my legal and regulatory skills.
You have now been working as Senior International Legal Advisor at FedEx Express. What has the experience been like, thus far?
After 5 years at TNT Express, someone came across my profile on LinkedIn and wanted to discuss about a position at FedEx Express. FedEx Express is the world’s largest express transportation company, providing fast and reliable delivery to more than 220 countries and territories worldwide. My role is to advise the management of the regulatory developments affecting or potentially affecting the operations of FedEx in Europe. The regulatory issues covered as part of my responsibility, to name a few, include international aviation regulations; customs and aviation security; export control laws and trade sanctions; and transport and environment. The range of policy and regulatory issues require a good understanding of our business model and especially about our operations across Europe and worldwide. Having moved to Brussels, Belgium recently I am also enjoying my engagement with European institutions in developing meaningful policies for our sector (transport sector in general).
In your opinion, what qualities should one imbibe in oneself if he wants to rise up the ladder as in-house counsel?
Fortunately or unfortunately, I do not have the experience of working in a law firm (except for my experience at Clyde and Co. in their aviation department). I have always worked as an in-house counsel and I believe these are the three qualities that one has to imbibe in oneself to build his career (either in-house or as a good lawyer):
i) Honesty and integrity in business;
ii) Effective communication skills;
iii) Empathy, especially towards co-workers.
Apart from the above, it is equally important for an in-house counsel (or a lawyer in a law firm) to: 1) understand their business well; and 2) build their knowledge in other areas of law.
To give you an example, I work with external counsel (law firms) around Europe who advise us on various legal and regulatory issues concerning our business. Despite their very good knowledge of law, I do not see any benefit of the advice given by external counsel if they cannot comprehend the business requirements.
As to building knowledge in other areas, do not confine yourself to an area that your job description states. Be ready to accept any challenge that is given even if it is outside the scope of your practice area. In-house counsel should re-invent and adapt to the business requirements to be ahead of others. To give an example from my own personal experience, I started as an aviation lawyer and now I also work on customs (recently completed post-graduate diploma on customs law from Canberra University, Australia), security, and trade and compliance matters.
Is the work and personal life balance manageable in Europe?
I hear a lot and read a lot about this issue. Sorry but this is something an individual has to decide and it has nothing to do with the country or region of this world you are working in. It is this simple – a workplace or a country you choose to live does not provide this balance. You have to decide on your priorities in your life. Once you make your own preferences then this work and life balance will be an issue of the past. Yes, all of us do long hours because that is the nature of our profession but there are other things to do in life – sleep (this is the best I like) or playing sports or doing something that you feel happy about. Most companies based in Europe certainly help their employees lead a better life compared to other parts of the world. However, it is one’s own decision again as to where they wish to draw a line.
What are your plans for the future? Would you consider entering the field of academia?
I like what I do in my job and will continue to develop myself in the path I chose. Yes, academics certainly interest me but I’m not yet sure what part of the academia it will be: coaching, teaching or management! I worked as a Programme Coordinator at Leiden University; was appointed as team coach of moot court teams and was also appointed as Judge at Air Law Moot Court Competition that Leiden University organizes every year; published a book on air and space law, ‘Contemporary Issues and Future Challenges in Air and Space law’; and recently also appointed as Visiting Faculty at Nalsar University for their Air and Space Law programme. So, I’m never out of touch from academics and I commit myself to promote aviation or general transport sector out of my own interest and in my own time.
My parents gave me the best education they could despite their financial difficulties, and my friends supported me in many ways during my difficult times to further my education. I have come a long way to be what I am today because of ‘education’. May be, I got lucky! We see a lot of people, especially kids, who still cannot afford to go to a school to get primary education in various parts of the world. I believe ‘education’ in some form or fashion should reach to one and all. My wife and I together have some plans, which we will certainly execute in the future. That is our wish and it will be our way of giving back to the society.
What is the one advice you would like to give young law students?
Be honest to yourself. Know your strengths and limitations. This understanding about yourself will help you make the right career choices.
Vishnu Ravi Shankar graduated from National Law University, Jodhpur in 2011. He worked at corporate law firms, beginning with Tempus Law Associates in Hyderabad for a year and a half, post which he worked in the Hyderabad and Delhi offices of Trilegal till 2014. Thereafter, he quit to join as a Partner at Ekalavyas, a sports media and talent management enterprise that manages and runs ekalavyas.com.
In this interview, he talks to us about:
His background, inspiration and passion leading him to pursue law
His experience working at corporate law firms and the decision to leave
His decision to work as a Partner at Ekalavayas and the nature of work
His views on the scope of sports and entrepreneurship in India and advice to aspirants in this field.
How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers who are mostly law aspirants, law students and young lawyers?
Well, essentially, I am a corporate lawyer turned entrepreneur who is truly passionate about sports and the business of sport, and the sport of basketball in particular. I used to be a full time corporate lawyer until last year and now, I undertake the dual role of managing my independent corporate law practice along with being a member of the core team at Ekalavyas, a sports media and talent management enterprise that manages and runs www.ekalavyas.com, India’s first and only basketball news website.
Tell our readers a bit about your childhood and pre-college life as well as your educational background. Do you have any lawyers in your family who motivated you to pursue a career in the legal field?
I grew up in a middle-class Telugu family which instilled middle-class values in me. I was born in Chennai, where most of my family is from. The unique aspect of my childhood was that my family lived in a number of places all across the country. I studied in 13 different schools! The good part about all the shifting and moving around was that it familiarized me with the diversity that India had to offer right from a very young age. I experienced the various different cultures of India and this holds me in good stead even today.
I was always into sports. I played basketball, football and cricket at an amateur level, but I was really into swimming and achieved some success at the same at the school level. I was a decent, but not an exceptional student. My parents never pressurized me into choosing any particular career. But the fact that both my father and my grandfather are corporate lawyers did influence me.
In fact, my grandfather was a lawyer as well as a company secretary. My father has been working as an in-house legal counsel for over thirty years, which has included stints in some of India’s biggest companies. So, the profession of law was not something that was alien to me. I had grown up watching my dad go about his business and law was, sort of, a natural choice for me. I was also keen on the practical aspects of companies and businesses and as a result, I pursued Commerce in Classes 11 and 12.
Can you recall any specific incident that made you choose law as a career?
No specific incident as such. As I mentioned earlier, I was inspired by the lawyers in my family. In addition to that, I was quite curious to learn how the legal system of the country works and I had a general spirit of enquiry towards the laws of the land.
How would you describe your experience as a student aspiring to be a professional at NLU Jodhpur?
It was definitely a rewarding experience, but not in the traditional way that you might expect. Obviously, those five years of law school come during a very formative period in your life. From the age of 17 to 22, you live on a residential campus in a hostel environment. It’s a period that does shape your personality to an extent. What I am most thankful for is the friendships I made during those years. Those bonds will remain with me for the rest of my life.
The feeling of playing sports and training with a team was another major aspect of my law school life. That’s the beauty of sport, isn’t it? It teaches you so many life lessons. How to be a leader, how to work in a team, the competition, how to accept defeat and learn from it, the spirit of sportsmanship – it’s just so beautiful. Most of all, you learn from the purity of sport – there are no shortcuts. You just have to put your head down and work HARD.
As regards my legal career, well, having studied in a national law school definitely gave weight to my resume. But academically, the entire law school experience was not ideally what it should have been. Although National Law University, Jodhpur is ranked among the top 5 law schools in India, the reality is that this ranking has very little to do with the quality of teaching there. That ranking and recognition, in my opinion, was mostly built by the students and their own determination to make something of themselves. This was the case with me as well.
I graduated with average grades. But that did not stop me from reaching a good place in my law firm career. So, obviously, there is no set formula for success or for bagging that coveted job placement. But what is essential, in my opinion, is that you continue to gain knowledge and experience. During your initial college years, instead of pre-deciding the field of law you wish to specialize in, I would suggest gaining internship experience working in several different fields. This not only helps you decide what your area of interest is, but also helps you develop a holistic way of thinking, when you are working on any matter. The other factor is to believe in yourself and your ability. Be confident and cut the faff.
What were your areas of interest during your graduation? Did you engage yourself into some extracurricular activities and how was the campus life?
To be honest, for the first two years of my law school life, there was very little that interested me on the academic front. There was too much focus on theory and very little focus on the practical aspects of the legal profession. NLU-J offers an honours system in which you can choose a specialization that ideally would be your calling after you graduate. I chose the field of Business Laws and this is when my interest piqued. Studying the laws that govern businesses, mergers, acquisitions and other corporate transactions was one of the few areas of interest that I had in law school.
Along with the knowledge gained in law school in this area, I also interned in the corporate teams of some of the best law firms in the country and was fortunate to find work pertaining to some fundamental areas of company law. Then, the real knowledge, of course, was gained during my time spent working in law firms.
With regards to extracurricular activities in college, I was mostly into sports – I played on the college basketball team in a few tournaments and the college football team in a couple of tournaments. During my last two years of college, basketball took up most of my extracurricular activity space. We had quite a picturesque basketball court on campus and a bunch of fun guys to play with too. Apart from sports, life on campus was great. There was a lot of freedom given to students during my time, which ensured that kids enjoyed college life the way they should.
Right after graduation, you joined as an Associate at Tempus Law Associates and thereafter Trilegal which is one of the Top law firms in India. What did an average day of work look like?
My first job after graduation was as an Associate with Tempus Law Associates, a mid-size law firm in Hyderabad. My parents were living in Hyderabad at that time, which was convenient as I got a chance to stay at home. As the law firm was still a young and growing one, I got a lot of exposure and first-hand experience advising on matters of corporate law and working on corporate transactions. There was a lot of PE activity in the Hyderabad market at that time in the IT/ ITES sector, mostly with domestic mid-size to established companies. I gained precious experience working on these transactions from end-to-end. As a small and understaffed firm, I got to work on transactions right from the term sheet stage to the due diligence up until the definitive agreements and closing. With this experience under my belt in my first one and half years, I was able to land a job in the Hyderabad office of Trilegal.
When I joined Trilegal, I realized the vast difference in the quality of legal services and the output expected from you. It took me a couple of months to adjust to the expected pace of delivery and quality of work. But once I gained the confidence of my partner and senior associate there, I worked on a number of good transactions. The most important thing that I learned there was the ability to handle matters independently, no matter what the matter was. At the end of the day, as lawyers, no one knows everything there is to know. What is important is that you learn where to look for information, pay attention to detail, approach matters in a logical and structured manner and also take into consideration the practical aspects.
Now the most important question, what made you leave one of the leading law firms, Trilegal, and join as a partner in Ekalavyas? What was the thought process behind taking that decision?
Yes, it was a crucial decision and it did come after a LOT of brainstorming. I was in a good place in my law firm career and the financial incentives were more than adequate. But there is a certain lifestyle that you want to lead and each person has his or her own preferred way of functioning. Although I was happy working on corporate transactions and business laws, the long hours and the way of going about any matter was not to my liking. Besides, sports was my true passion and I realized that I might as well work on something that I was truly passionate about and I had more ownership over. I waited till I had enough savings to last me for a while, and I took the decision to quit and work for Ekalavyas full-time.
What is the motto behind creating Ekalavyas and who are in the core team? What exactly does Ekalavyas do and what is your job role, who are your clients and what are the services offered?
I think for each of the co-founders, the reason behind starting Ekalavyas would be different. The basic idea was to bring attention to non-mainstream sports and sportspersons in India, who are constantly in the shadow of cricket and therefore, immensely suffer.
In any field, a monopoly is never good. There should be always be a healthy balance and fair competition. Unfortunately, when it comes to sports in India, cricket is the dominant sport in the minds and hearts of the majority of the public. A lot has to do with media exposure to a sport. If you really put it in perspective, cricket is played only by a handful of nations and its origins lie in the colonial era. Not that I have anything against cricket. I watch and follow cricket just as much as any other Indian and still continue to do so. But what about people who are passionate about other sports? Do they have to give up their dreams and aspirations of becoming professionals in the sport just because your nation does not pay attention to it? That would be highly unfair and a let down to your fellow countrymen.
Although anti-competitive practices and monopoly is restricted in other sectors in India by law, in the field of sport, there was no restriction to the growth of cricket. Nor should there be, but at the same time, other sports should be given equal attention. Let’s take a fellow commonwealth nation like Australia for example. They are world-beaters in cricket. But at the same time, they manage to qualify for the football world cup, the basketball world cup, are one of the best at rugby and so on and so forth. They even have five-six players currently playing in the top professional basketball league in the world, the NBA.
So the motto behind Ekalavyas is to create an equal and balanced world of sports in India. We aim to bring respect to all sportspersons, irrespective of the sport they choose to excel in. Ekalavyas can be described as a sports media and talent management enterprise. We have started with our focus on Indian basketball, but the plan is to eventually implement this model for other sports as well. On the media front, we are looking to cover as many Indian basketball events and tournaments as possible, as well as major events on the international front. We also provide PR and content creation services for tournament organisers, basketball academies, state basketball associations and other entities.
On the talent management side, we are currently building a database of players and coaches with the aim of finding the right opportunities for them in India and abroad. We have already been involved with sending a couple of India’s best players to play professionally in Japan. We are also focused on building better infrastructure and facilities for basketball around the country. We have a tie-up with sports infrastructure companies for refurbishment of basketball courts. We have a few other ideas and divisions that we intend to begin in due course of time. As a member of the core team, I do have my hands in almost all aspects of the business at some level or the other. But I’m majorly focused on international content for Ekalavyas and the talent management division.
In our short period of existence, we have worked with a variety of clients, both in India and abroad. Some of our major clients include the Basketball Federation of India, NBA team Sacramento Kings and the UBA (Universal Basketball Alliance, the company that organized India’s first professional basketball league). We recently provided location scouting services for basketball courts for an advertisement campaign by Nike. So, with our database of information on players, coaches, referees, basketball courts, etc., we continue to get a range of work from different clients. For more information, visit www.ekalavyas.com.
Vishnu interviewing Satnam Singh (India’s 1st NBA Player)
Tell our readers whether you had a passion for the game of basketball. Did you actively participate in any basketball tournament? How is the work life at Ekalavyas and how do you maintain the work and family life balance?
Yes, of course. I am deeply passionate about basketball. I’ve played the sport at an amateur level throughout my life. In fact, I had the classic ‘hoop in my driveway’ as a kid. But I started taking the sport seriously with regular practice and training only during my college years. I made it to the college basketball team and did participate in a few tournaments. I was a part of the winning team at the sports fest held in RMLNLU, Lucknow. I was the captain of the winning team at the same sports fest the next year. Plus, basketball was a way of life for me in college. We used to play pickup games almost everyday – it was probably the most fun part of college life.
To answer the second part regarding life working at Ekalavyas, it’s obviously good to be your own boss. But this also requires a lot of self-discipline – something that I constantly have to work on! Thing is, I don’t consider this as work. Instead, it’s a way of life. Ekalavyas goes in the direction its founders take it and we only work on those things that interest us. As a business that is still in its initial years, it obviously requires a lot of time and effort. But at the end of day, it’s worth it because we are building something we truly believe in and are passionate about.
Having said that, of course, I still am servicing clients as an independent corporate lawyer and this is necessary for financial sustenance. But since these are also on my own terms, i.e., according to the processes I think best and my own timelines, work-life balance has not really been an issue.
You have been a part of Ekalavyas for a period of more than one year. Tell our readers how the journey has been and the challenges / difficulties encountered by you.
Any startup business faces a number of challenges in its nascent stages. On the personal front, initially, I had to adjust to not receiving a fixed amount of money per month and I had to be careful with the way I spent my money. But as time went on, and money started coming from my legal practice and from Ekalavyas, I gained a certain level of financial comfort.
So far, we have run the business without any external financial aid. We work on a self-sustaining model, where we slowly grow through the revenue earned from providing our services. Without major funding, growth has obviously been slow, but the important point is that we do not have any external pressure or influence in the way we function (which is of paramount importance to us). But now, we’ve reached a stage, where are ready to take things to the next level and will be considering investment offers.
Overall, the journey has been great. I’ve met so many people from literally every state of the country, travelled to so many new places, which I otherwise would have never been able to travel to and I’ve been closely associated with the sport I love. So despite the challenges, I wouldn’t have it any other way.
How did your relatives react to the decision of your quitting Trilegal and joining Ekalavyas? Did your family support you and what was their advice to you?
They were hesitant at first. Understandably, my parents were surprised at my decision to quit Trilegal. They were worried about the financial security I had created for myself. But soon, they realised that I was happy with what I was doing and were very supportive, which was reassuring to me. My parents have always told me to be realistic about anything in life. Their simple advice was that your passion is one thing and it’s great to do something that you’re passionate about. But you have to approach it in a structured manner with long-term vision that yields success. Further, you need to be able to sustain yourself and your lifestyle. I have always kept this advice in mind.
Do you have any plans to pursue higher education in the future, especially in sports laws?
No plans right now. I’m not sure whether any higher education course would be as useful to me compared to the practical experience of running a business. Many of the things that you learn in the real world are rarely taught in any educational institution. As of now, I plan to continue to focus on the growth of Ekalavyas and my independent legal practice. But who knows what the future holds.
Tell our readers what is the growth potential of sports law in India and what suitable measures are needed to promote sports in this country.
Sports law in India is already sort of established. Thing is, sports law is basically an amalgation of various other areas of practice. It involves contract law, labour and employment laws and other commercial laws. Of course, sports law also entails familiarity with international and domestic sporting guidelines (anti-doping, laws governing sporting bodies, professional league rules, etc.). When I was working in the Hyderabad office of Trilegal, I came across my first brush with the field of sports law. I directly worked on drafting of commercial contracts for two prominent cricketers.
With the advent of professional leagues in sports other than cricket and the growing interest in other sports in India, the need for lawyers who specialize in sports law will definitely increase. So, that way, it’s another avenue open for law students today. Unfortunately, sports law is not a course offered in many law schools. NLSIU, Bengaluru, recently held a conference on sports law. So, things are moving in the right direction.
As regards what measures are required to promote sports in the country, well, there is a lot that can be done. Without getting into all that detail, I would simply say that people just need to go out and play! It all starts at home and if people are more sporty and physically active, automatically the respect for various sports and sportspersons will increase. Current facilities and infrastructure should not be used as excuses.
Lastly, what are your plans for the future? What advice would you give law students wishing to work in the niche sector as you?
We have some big plans for the future. We are looking to build a sports conglomerate with focus on various divisions that include media and PR, talent management, coaching and training, sports infrastructure and a lot more.
Look, the advice that I would offer to any student is to focus on living their lives. In college, try and experience as much as you can – don’t hold back, because that time is not going to come back. Apply your own judgment to every situation. Do not just blindly follow people who are senior or higher in command to you. Lastly, try and do something that gives you satisfaction and not something merely for the sake of your bank account.
Finally tell us in which specific role would you like to see yourself-the role of a lawyer, entrepreneur, a founder or a sports enthusiast?
All of them, actually- I am a lawyer, who is also an entrepreneur and founder as well as a major sports enthusiast.
