Super Lawyer

Category: Interviews

  • Ankit Yadav, LL.M candidate, NYU, on researching with legal luminaries and drafting the perfect memorial

    Ankit Yadav, LL.M candidate, NYU, on researching with legal luminaries and drafting the perfect memorial

    Ankit Yadav is one of the illustrious graduates of 2012 batch from RMLNLU. He subsequently went on to pursue his Masters NYU School of Law. After graduation he went for an LL.M. to New York University. During his tenure as an LL.M. candidate at NYU he worked with many legal luminaries and also had the opportunity to judge in the Philip C. Jessup International Law Moot.

    During this interview we speak to him about:

    • LL.M experience at New York University
    • Researching for Prof. Jose E. Alvarez and Prof. Eda Katharine Tinto
    • Perspective of a judge of Philip C. Jessup on what is an awesome memorial

     

    How would you like to introduce yourself to them?

    I am still a student of law, who is endeavouring to make a mark in this field.

     

    Tell us something about your life before college.

    I am a first generation lawyer. I did my schooling in the science background which, I still believe, helps me in having an objective approach towards various situations.

     

    How did you gravitate towards legal studies?

    I would not go on to the extent of saying that I always dreamt of being a lawyer. But yes, it always appeared to me as a fascinating profession, especially because most great leaders across the globe are/were lawyers. I believe that the study of law helps one relate better to the society and its needs.

     

    How did you go about securing internships at places like top tier firms?

    My idea of doing internships was to get a sense of different areas and work setups in this field (law firms, lawyers’ chambers, governmental and non- governmental organisations), which later allowed me to make an informed career choice.

    Most law students have an apprehension that one can’t get a good internship without having good contacts or knowing someone who can recommend you. Well honestly, I also thought so till the time I was proved wrong. Having a good network of relevant people is always a plus point in this profession.

    However, that does not mean that you cannot secure a good internship without the same.In my opinion, the key to securing a good internship is to apply well in advance and have a cover letter that allows the employer to judge your skills within a period of 30-40 seconds. Most employers get numerous applications every day. Therefore, the cover letter and resume of an applicant should be very concise and well drafted.

    Every internship that I did, not only helped me in honing my skills but also allowed me to decide what kind of lawyer I want to be. Internships teach us time management, team work, work ethics and give us a chance to put our classroom knowledge into practice. In short, internships give law students an insight into the real practice of law. Therefore, I would strongly recommend that law students should take all their internships very seriously.

     

    What was your motivation behind pursuing LL.M.?

    Everyone in my family is a post-graduate and I did not want to be the least literate one. I always wanted to get the knowledge, skills, academic resources and exposure that a world class university offers. Therefore, it was always there at the topmost position of my priority list. The only requirement was to get through one of the leading institutions of the world, which I was fortunate enough to get.

     

    ankit-yadav1How should one go about choosing a university?

    The hard task is for the law students to decide what area of law they want to specialize in. Once that is done, the process becomes relatively easier. Law schools ranking are available online and law students are good at doing online research. One needs to find the best uinversities in their chosen area of specialization. Location of the law school also plays an important role in determining what kind of exposure it would be able to offer to a prospective student. Therefore, a law student should take this into consideration before choosing a university.

     

    Please tell our readers about the application procedure and other requirements for an LL.M. at NYU.

    The application procedure for an LL.M at NYU is almost the same as other Universities of US and UK. All the applicants are required to submit a statement of purpose, writing samples and letters of recommendation along with the application form. All the information is available on the official website of NYU.

     

    Does NYU provide students with scholarships?

    Yes, like most leading universities, NYU also offers merit-based scholarships to prospective students. Also, apart from the scholarships offered by law schools, a number of charitable organisations offer merit-based scholarships to students who have secured or are hopeful of securing admissions in well recognized law schools abroad.

     

    Was there a lot of academic work?

    Yes, the work load becomes overwhelming at the beginning, but one gets used to the system after a while. Reading or writing assignments are allotted for every class and one has to go prepared to be able to understand the discussions properly.

     

    Please tell us about your experience working with Prof. Jose E. Alvarez and also Prof. Eda Katharine Tinto as Research Assistant.

    The work I did during my research assistantships was very enriching not just because of its academic value but also because of the amount of experience and knowledge I gained while working with the people who are widely recognized for their contribution to the American and international society.

     

    How has the experience of being Judge at the international rounds of Philip C. Jessup International Moot Court Competition been?

    It was truly a wonderful experience, being at the other side of the podium at the most prestigious moot court competition of the world, sharing the dais with and getting to interact with some of the well known faces of international law and just being a part of the entire process.

    The primary qualities that every judge looks for is a strong understanding of the basic concepts of international law and a proper appreciation of the facts provided in the Compromis. Once these are present, then eloquence, demeanour, poise, innovative arguments and persuasive skills are the qualities that bring out the difference between a winning team and the rest.

     

    If I want to write an awesome memo, what are the relevant skills and how should I go about learning them?

    An awesome memo would be the culmination of an awesome research into an awesomely drafted document. When I grade a memorial, I look for good amount of research and its proper application in the facts provided. Every word that is mentioned in a Compromis/problem statement should be presumed to be relevant while drafting a memorial.

    The language used should be formal and simple and must be as concise as possible. These are the skills that can only be acquired with practice. Therefore, it is imperative to have a first draft prepared well before the submission deadline and then keep refining it.

    In my opinion, MUNs, debates and moot courts are a great way of developing advocacy skills (research, drafting and oratory skills among other things). Unlike regular academic coursework, these activities involve the thrill of getting immediate results for all the labour you put in them. They are also a great way of boosting up the confidence of a law student and to learn something which may not be  a part of your academic coursework.

     

    Was your typical workday during your internships in India any different from your workday abroad?

    Not very different. Nowadays, most employers in India have also become more respectful towards their employees. They have started recognizing a proper work-life balance is necessary for employees to be able to perform up to their potential. I am hopeful that it will keep getting better from here on.

     

    What are your future plans?

    My future plans are to be a successful litigator. In the next five years, I want to be a well recognized name in this field.

     

    Lastly, what would be your message to a law student who wants to excel as a lawyer?

    Believe in yourself! If you are determined to be successful, no one can stop you. All you need is to stay focused and motivated. The legal profession needs to transform to keep pace with the changing society and our generation will bring about that change.

    “I have, let’s say, sixty years to live. Most of that time will be spent working. I’ve chosen the work I want to do. If I find no joy in it, then I’m only condemning myself to sixty years of torture. And I can find the joy only if I do my work in the best way possible to me. But the best is a matter of standards—and I set my own standards. I inherit nothing. I stand at the end of no tradition. I may, perhaps, stand at the beginning of one.”

    – Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead.

  • Akansha Dubey, LL.M. candidate, Cambridge, on researching, publishing and editing for top-notch journals and being a competitor and judge at the Willem C Vis

    Akansha Dubey, LL.M. candidate, Cambridge, on researching, publishing and editing for top-notch journals and being a competitor and judge at the Willem C Vis

    Akansha Dubey is a graduate of 2013 batch of NLU, Jodhpur. She then went on to pursue her Master’s degree from Cambridge, with a specialisation in International Trade Law, Dispute Resolution, International Environment Law and Human Rights. She had success at the 18th Willem C. Vis and had also recently came across the opportunity to judge the moot as an Arbitrator. She has publications in renowned journals to her credit, and had also taken part in various international conferences and summer courses. She also holds a lot of experience interning in top-notch law firms and as a judicial clerk for Supreme Court judges.

    In this interview we speak to her about:

    • Researching, publishing and being an editor of academic articles in top-notch journals
    • Interning at the largest law firms and clerking under SC judges
    • An LL.M. from Cambridge in International Law

     

    How did you gravitate towards Law?

    It may sound a bit clichéd, but since my parents were judges inevitably the legal profession and its quirks were an integral part of my childhood. The dinner table conversations exposed me to the world of legal politics and procedure. Though initially my interest was limited, but with the emergence of novel legal avenues apart from the traditional ones I became highly inclined to pursue this field.

    To summarize my life at NLU, Jodhpur I would say it was hectic since I wanted to pursue a variety of interests and multi-tasked during my five years. From the beginning, I was interested in academics, moots and research work. Apart from participating in national and international moot court competitions I was also a part of various paper presentations and even secured national and international publications. As a part of the Centre for Research and Training in Arbitration Law (CARTAL) we introduced the flagship arbitration journal of NLU Jodhpur, Indian Journal of Arbitration Law, and I served as the Senior Editor and the Editor-in-Chief successively. Beyond the sphere of academics and co-curricular, I was a regular participant of the frequent legal aid/awareness camps as well.

     

    What does it take to be a great mooter?

    (Akansha has won the Friedrich Eismann Award at the 18th Willem C. Vis International Commercial Arbitration Moot, Vienna. She was also awarded Best Student Advocate and her team was chosen the Best team at Dip Chand Memorial Moot.)

    As far as these two successes are concerned the major contributing factors were the team-work, the long hours of research and the specific focus on prior practice of the oral rounds. Though the preparation for international and national moots differ the importance of an intricate factual scrutiny, exhaustive research, precise expression and innovative thinking cannot be undermined.

    Well, frankly, there is no formula to being a ‘great’ mooter. At the outset, it is essential that you pursue mooting as an interest and not merely as a CV-building exercise.

    With a passion for mooting the long hours of work and commitment become easier and enjoyable. To build the conventional research and oratory skills observation is a good tool. It may be through observing the varied mooting styles of your seniors, analyzing international teams through videos or browsing through winning memorials on the websites. Nevertheless, these should assist in finding your own mooting style.

    Personally, I believe it is better to transition from national to international moots and keep in mind that most of these competitions test not only research, knowledge and oration but also the understanding of the contemporary relevance of the concerned area of law. Such a comprehensive outlook to the moot problem makes the arguments more assertive, pertinent and impressive in a competition. Thus, this can help in building an inspiring and notable mooting style.

     

    How should one go about writing papers and getting the same published?

    According to me the most important steps are to narrow down the area of your interest and find a contemporary perspective to the concerned area or topic. Most of the international publications look out for current relevance, fluid language and originality. In case the student wishes to pursue certain specialised areas of law it is better to structure the publications within the framework of the current developments in these areas. Hence, prior publications will provide more credibility to the student as an author when their works are considered by reputed international journals.

    Another strategy could be to work upon the class room projects to develop them into papers and thus approach national or international journals. One important lesson I learnt was never to hesitate to approach journals, you never know when a topic may click with any of them. Since international publishers always go through the CV of the author it is important not to undermine a national publication, which may prove to be an asset when being considered by an international journal.

     

    What are the top three things you consider as sine qua non for a great research work?

    (Akansha has held positions like Editor-in-Chief for the Indian Journal of Arbitration Law, Editor, Cambridge Journal of International and Comparative Law in the past and presently she is a Legal Research Fellow at the Centre for International Sustainable Development Law.)

    It is difficult to enumerate the three most important characteristics since research work is dependent on various factors and circumstances. Nevertheless, as per my experience some things contribute more to a notable research work. First, the ability to conduct a focused research without deviating from the aim of the concerned work and the target audience. Secondly, even though the research is required to be focused it should not be restrained. A holistic understanding is required with the help of drawing links with other overlapping subjects and areas.

    Thirdly, I believe the research work should depict a present-day view which illustrates the practical application of the research and thus does not merely put forth a theoretical understanding. Until and unless the research work can be applied in the modern world to tackle the emerging needs and problems, it fails to make a mark in the field of academics.

     

    Do you think participating in extracurricular activities like MUNs, Debates, Seminars and Conferences proves to be of help to law students?

    (Akansha has attended a number of both national and international conferences like International Congress of Environmental Research in Mauritius, International Law Students Association Summer Conference in Istanbul, and a lot more.)

    There is no doubt that these activities lead to more exposure to new legal spheres, interaction with the global community of law students, academics and scholars and even prove to be an avenue to branch out of the legal arena. This can help students choose, create or strengthen their interest areas and give them a chance to see world issues from varying perspectives.

    As I mentioned before, if these activities are undertaken in areas of interest they can prove to be beneficial with respect to professional aspects as well. On one hand seminars and conferences may result in publication of selected papers and on the other MUNs are a great opportunity for networking. In case one wishes to pursue research, academics or even apply for higher studies these activities are seen as illustrations of the student’s focus area, awareness of world issues and work undertaken so far.

     

    How did you apply for the Summer Course in International Commercial Arbitration by the International Chamber of Commerce, Paris?

    During my internships and moots, I had worked extensively in the area of dispute resolution especially international commercial arbitration. Since I wished to pursue the subject further when I came across the opportunity to participate in an international summer course I was very much inclined towards it. I learnt about the summer course online while generally researching on the current developments under the subject area. The application procedure was simple which required me to send a ‘Statement of Purpose’ and my CV to be considered for the course. Once I was selected for the course I was intimated by the organisers who offered to waive off my tuition fee.

    The summer course was an enriching experience where the practicing arbitrators and counsels of the ICC discussed the contemporary issues with the students. Also, the diverse group of participants helped me understand their national viewpoints to different legal quandaries in the area of arbitration law.

    During the course we visited various key institutions including the OECD and learnt more about the functioning the ICC and its rules when conducting an arbitration hearing. Apart from the academic sphere this course fostered cultural and social exchange amongst the students involving developed and developing country debates to surface as well.

     

    Tell us about your internsip experience.

    (Akansha has interned with top tier firms and organisations like Amarchand, Trilegal, Competition Commission of India, and Parliamentary Research Services.)

    All my firm internships were through the Placement Committee in the college and primarily based on the shortlisting of the CV based on the CGPA. Since I was quite inclined towards legal research I endeavoured to look up different research-based internships wherein I applied individually. With the organizations like the CCI or the PRS a standard and uniform procedure is followed, CCI focuses on the contemporary relevance of the research proposal submitted by interns which they plan to pursue in the four week internship. In case of PRS, a rigorous procedure of a questionnaire and an interview is followed.

    I believe the key to securing research-based internships is to keep looking for new opportunities through legal websites, blogs and social media and apply in the areas of your interest. While most of the top tier firms follow a strict policy of receiving applications though the college Placement Committee itself, the research organizations welcome interested applicants based on their willingness and enthusiasm.

     

    How relevant did you find your law school education with the kind of work you were required to do at law firms?

    This is a difficult question since most of the law school work was theoretical with rarely any understanding of the practical implications. When I worked as an intern in a legal firm I had to change my theoretical notions of law to accommodate the challenges of the practical working of law. Undeniably, the theoretical understanding of the legal framework provided a foundation of my understanding but the internship required to build upon it extensively. Each law firm internship was a new experience which gradually depicted the lack of an application-based teaching methodology in the law schools of the country.

    Though all my internships contributed tremendously to my knowledge and experience, some of them made the most impression with respect to my career choices. First, the internship in the Competition Commission of India exposed me to the policy formulation and implementation in the sphere of national competition laws. As I worked upon a research report for three weeks, I realized my emerging interest and aptitude for research work and policy deliberation. Second, both my judicial clerkships helped me appreciate the role of policy implications while formulating and implementing the law.

    My discussions with the two sitting Supreme Court judges reinforced my beliefs of how law and policy need to simultaneously work together for the growth of a civilized society. Thus, as I felt this relationship was greatly neglected I wished to strengthen this under the Indian legal framework.

     

    What do you feel about the importance of a good CGPA & contacts when attempting to secure an internship?

    Well, I cannot deny the excessive reliance on both as tools to help secure internships with reputed firms, lawyers or even research organizations. A good CGPA definitely helps in securing internships through the college Placement Committee wherein it is treated as a benchmark of differentiation amongst the students. In the present times students do not hesitate to use contacts to secure internships as well. Nevertheless, the lack of these tools does not close all opportunities.

    Undoubtedly, the top law firms and lawyers rely on these tools to judge students but if one is willing to opt for the modest options the experience gained here proves to be of great value. The research-based internships also give more importance to the interest, enthusiasm and willingness of the students. Thus, the lack of these tools should not dishearten the students but encourage them to look for more avenues to gather valuable experience.

     

    Why did you choose to do a Judicial Internship?

    (Akansha was engaged as a judicial clerk under Justice Katju and also Justice H.L. Gokhale, in the Supreme Court during her graduation.)

    During my third year in NLU Jodhpur I was convinced that my aptitude and interest lay either in the field of legal research or litigation. A judicial internship embodies a rare opportunity to interact with the learned individuals presiding over the highest court of the country. Apart from the charm of the daily interaction with such stalwarts, this experience is much significant when applying for higher studies.

    Most of the reputed international universities attach high regard to any work done with the judges of the Supreme Court. In case one wishes to pursue litigation this can set the stage for being recommended by a sitting Supreme Court judge to a lawyer of your choice. This gives more credibility and experience to the application whether in context of higher studies or litigation.

     

    What kind of tasks were you given as a judicial intern?

    In my experience, it is not a difficult task to secure a judicial internship when applying from third year onwards. The standard procedure is to fill the application form available online on the website of the Supreme Court of India and send it along with the CV by post to the Supreme Court Registry. The only requirement is for the application to be made through the education institution and not by the candidate personally. The institution is intimated of the selected candidates and their dates a month before the start of the internship.

    Most of the candidates who apply are selected and thus allocated on a random basis to the judges. I believe, in my case the high academic performance and various moots as well as publications could have contributed to the selection process. As an intern the work given is similar to a judicial clerk. A judicial clerkship is a one year paid programme to assist a sitting Supreme Court judge after graduation.

    The tasks include summarizing the case briefs, participating in case discussions and researching on various points of law. Such an internship may involve assisting in drafting judgments as well. But the highlights of these internships are the interactions and discussions with the judges and understanding the factors considered by them when drafting judgments which serve as the law of the country.

     

    What was your motivation behind pursuing LL.M?

    Since I was very clear on pursuing either research or litigation in my third year of law I began considering the option of higher studies as well. During my internships I was strongly inclined towards the area of law and policy and thus started looking for related career opportunities. In this competitive field a higher degree provided the much needed edge to the applicant.

    Also, since I was increasingly interested in dispute resolution and undertook a specialization in international trade I decided to link these subjects to the area of interest. With this emerged the need and desire to pursue an LL.M degree in the future. Hence, it proved to be an amalgamation of my interest as well as a requirement for better prospects in my chosen career path.

    I wished to pursue an LL.M in pure international law subjects and thus applied to the universities known for the courses of my choice. Moreover, an LL.M abroad opened up a different level of academic, cultural and diverse experience at the international platform.

     

    Why did you opt for University of Cambridge?

    I wanted to undertake higher studies in the specialized regimes of international law especially trade and dispute resolution, therefore the aim was to apply for the reputed universities based on the course of my choice. University of Cambridge was ranked the highest in relation to the faculty and courses of international law and hence was a preferred choice.

    Other universities I applied to consist of traditional LL.Ms in the Harvard University, University of California (Berkeley) and specialized courses like International Business Regulation, Litigation and Arbitration in the New York University, International Economic Law and Policy LL.M (Barcelona) and Master of International Disputes Settlement (Geneva).

     

    What do you think contributed towards your candidature at Cambridge?

    With respect to my selection in the University of Cambridge I strongly believe that I was able to show a link between the focus of my research work and experience to the courses I wished to pursue. My long term goal of pursuing trade/economic policy was complemented by my specialization in International Trade, research publications and internships with respect to the same subject area.

    In order to get accepted as an LL.M candidate at one of the reputed international universities it is important to showcase high academic excellence accompanied with a strong interest in the courses the student wishes to choose. Also, the student’s ‘Statement of Purpose’ and CV should sufficiently depict the need for an LL.M to achieve the ultimate goal he/she desires.

    And lastly, an LLM candidate should depict a focused interest rather than an ambiguous desire to opt for higher studies with no set goal. These are essential characteristics to present an impressive LL.M application in the international sphere.

     

    How was the academic schedule? Was there a lot of academic work?

    University of Cambridge offers the LL.M students to undertake four courses of their choice and allows for an optional thesis/dissertation in one of them. The schedule consists of weekly lectures, seminars, supervisor meetings with respect to the thesis and guest lectures for the interested students.

    Like most of the LL.M degrees abroad the nine month long academic programme of the University of Cambridge was short and rigorous. Due to the short period of time there was always the pressure to finish the daily readings, work on the thesis/dissertation simultaneously and also attend the weekly lectures/seminars. Even though the examinations were preceded by a long holiday, the detailed analysis of the issues and high standards raised the expectations from the students.

     

    How has the experience judging moots been?

    (Akansha has been a Memorial Judge at the Willem C. Vis International Commercial Moot, Vienna and also a Judge at the Monroe E. Price International Media Law Moot, Oxford. )

    I found that working in the capacity of a judge in both the moot court competitions was an enriching experience filled with valuable insights. Being a memorial judge I looked for correct identification of the issues, formulation of the arguments, use of factual and legal knowledge and precise expression. As an oral round judge the focus was more on the comprehensive understanding of the subject area, usage of authorities, link between facts and law and the confidence, assertiveness of the speaker.

    The Oxford experience helped me interact with barristers, academicians and counsels from different legal arenas. Also, the moot participants were a diverse group as well.

     

    What are your long-term goals?

    As a professional I aim to pursue the field of legal research and policy essentially. After completing my LL.M course I will be joining the National Council of Applied Economic Research (NCAER) as a Special Assistant to the Director General in New Delhi. This is my very first step and I hope it proves to be a good experience for learning the practical implications and relationships of economic policy and law.

    In the coming years I aim to publish more regarding the new developments in the area of international trade, environment and dispute resolution. Also, I will be looking to undertake further research in the form of a PhD. Ultimately, I wish to join the United Nations Organization as a part of one of the specialized bodies concerned with the areas of my research work.

     

    Lastly, what would be your message to law students interested in going for higher studies from India?

    I would only encourage them to find a passion before they commit to a year of higher studies. With a clear idea of your inclinations and aptitudes an LL.M can prove to be an asset in not only the professional but also the personal development of the individual.

  • Tanuj Kalia, Founder, Lawctopus, on his passion for entrepreneurship, blogging, and plans for the future

    Tanuj Kalia, Founder, Lawctopus, on his passion for entrepreneurship, blogging, and plans for the future

    Tanuj KAlia graduated from NUJS, batch of 2013. He is founder, CEO, and publishing editor of Lawctopus, an online portal designed to help law students. The website has been featured in leading dailies such as the Economic Times, The Telegraph, among others. His other achievements include being student mentor for law students at IMS Learning Resources; research intern at A.K. Bansal and Advocates,  Fidus Law Chambers, Research Foundation for Governance in India, among others.

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • Combining law with his passion for entrepreneurship
    • Working as Vice President of vakilsearch
    • The future of Lawctopus

     

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    I am Tanuj Kalia, born and brought-up in a small town in Himachal called Sundernagar. I started writing poems when I was 9, ended up doing law from NUJS, Kolkata, and started Lawctopus.com thanks to a heady mix of serendipity and chicken pox.

     

    Tell us something about your life before law school.

    My childhood was spent in a small town in Himachal Pradesh, Sundernagar, and it was an awesome idyllic place with lots of piddu ball cricket. For my Class 11 and 12 and LST I was in Chandigarh, where I did nothing but study well and hard.

     

    What motivated you to pursue law?

    I was pretty weak in Maths. I could actually feel my brain cells’ synapses give way when I tried to do any mathematical sums. Also, I was quite good in English. My parents never forced me to do Engineering etc., and it was my dad who brought home the 2008 NLSIU paper. After seeing the questions I was like “This requires writing, yippy!”. And so I was in. Also my dad is a civil servant and had studied law, so he knew a bit about the profession.

     

    How did you get into blogging?

    (Tanuj was awarded ‘Best Legal Blogger in India’ by LegallyIndia.com.)

    I started writing and blogging for Legally India accidentally. When Legally India had just started, I had e-mailed Kian (the founder editor) that I wanted to intern under a good family law lawyer and could not find any information on it. Kian, the fantastic person that he is, put up my query on LI forums where I did get some good replies.

    We got introduced this way and I told him that I loved writing and wanted to write for his website. The freelance rates for Legally India are top-notch and Kian is an excellent mentor. My first write-up for Legally India was on ‘Internships’.

    I was a reluctant blogger, too. But Kian sort of goaded me into writing. And Legal Poet took off.

     

    How does one become an excellent writer?

    Innate talent is required. But it is just the starting point. If you are not talented, but work hard at this craft, you can get good, but maybe not great at it. Similarly, if you are super talented but do not work hard, you will remain just average.

    I do not think I am up there to offer advice yet. But still, write from the gut, use simple words, short sentences, have shorter paragraphs. And then, edit ruthlessly.

     

    Tell us about your life at NUJS.

    It did get monotonous for me in the first year, when I was like, “Hey, what should I do?”

    I played quite a bit of cricket then and made it into the University team. So yes, cricket took a bit of time then. Also, I was convinced that ‘internships’ were the be all and end all of a successful career in law and I researched like crazy on internships too.

    In my second year, I took to blogging. In third year it was IDIA and Lawctopus. In the fourth year, love made me crazy! ” And hey! Is there even a fifth year in law school?

     

    What kind of internships did you do while you were a student?

    I stopped interning after my third year, because Lawctopus was doing well and in my view working on it was as useful as any internship. I interned at a lot of small places doing excellent work.

    My internships sort of convinced me that I can do something similar what these people (the founders of the places I was interning at) are doing and that I should do ‘something of my own’.

    I interned at Malhotra and Malhotra Associates in Chandigarh, which is a nice family and immigration law firm; RFGI, a think tank based in Ahmedabad; Fidus Law Chambers, an IP and Sports Law firm in Noida. I also worked under Ashwinie Kumar Bansal, an author/WIPO mediator.

     

    What are the skills you have learnt at internships and you could not have learnt otherwise?

    Not skills as such, but internships gave me a perspective.

    Fidus Law Chambers taught me that sometimes you can suck, and it’s ok.

    RFGI taught me how a small group of young people was making good changes, both big and small.

    Malhotra and Malhotra taught me, that, well, there’s loads of money to be made in law.

     

    How adept are you in Search Engine Marketing and Search Engine Optimization?

    I really do not have proficiency in these areas. But yes, I did a one month course in SEO/SEM so that when I talk to a tech guy I can understand what he says and he can understand what I want.

     

    How did you fare in your academics at NUJS?

    I did well in my first year. From my third year onwards I took exams just to pass them. So, I used to curse myself if I scored anything above 45 marks (40 is the passing mark, so getting a 50 did not make sense; why work that hard for something you do not want). I ended up in the middle of my batch.

    There was academic pressure, but I did not take it. My parents were again okay with it. They told me, “Complete law in five years, and do whatever you want.”

     

    What did you do after your graduation?

    I did not sit for campus placements in my fifth year. I was not looking for placements really, but I was sort of ‘open’.

    Now vakilSearch is a very exciting company and I knew about it since my third year and had track its (and Akosha’s) growth since then. Both the companies were an amalgamation of law, entrepreneurship and big change which appealed to me.

    The job and vakilSearch happened accidentally. I was on phone with Hrishikesh Datar (the CEO of vakilsearch) regarding some tie-up with Lawctopus. At the end of the phone call he was like “Why don’t you join vakilSearch?” I told him that if the offer ‘excited’ me, I would be up for it. And well, it indeed was a super exciting offer!

    Frankly speaking, vakilSearch, Akosha, Rainmaker etc. had been on my hit list since the third year and I’d have loved to work for such companies.

     

    What did you have to do as a VP of Marketing for VakilSearch?

    I worked for six months. Basically I had to oversee lots of things: SEO, site design, social media, tie-ups, affiliates etc.

     

    Tell us something about getting recognised by iversity as an ambassador.

    I won a competition where you had to get the maximum number of people to join their courses. I did that through the Lawctopus network. And of course, then I had to blog, too, which was more exciting.

     

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    How did you manage your academics and Lawctopus together?

    Well, I did NOT manage my academics. I used to study the night before the exam for over six hours straight. I used to be on two red bulls and I speed read well (1000 words+ an hour). So yes, that’s how I mismanaged my academics!

     

    Did you visit entrepreneur meetings during the formative years of Lawctopus?

    Yes, our common friend, Ramanuj introduced me to Start-up Saturdays and I found the events good, though not great. I’d say start-ups in India are going to rise. (Am patriotic, so anything I say about India is going to be positive).

     

    How difficult would you say the first two years were of Lawctopus?

    Starting a website requires very little money. So, the five of us just pooled in our pocket money. It was not difficult because we were then just doing it for fun. But yes, there were lots of ups and downs in the initial years. Lawctopus is a self-sustaining, profit-earning entity now. So, if I need to invest in a new related project, the money that Lawctopus generates by itself, does it for me.

     

    There were news once that Lawctopus had lost all its database and files due to a server crash. Is it true?

    Yes, quite true! Stupidity and carelessness lead to this. Yes, it was devastating. But well, I had come afresh from a gruelling ten day Vipassana meditation retreat (which is by far the best experience I  have had in my life). The crux of the learning is that everything is impermanent and so I took it in my stride. The Lawctopus’ co-founders Prateek and Dhruv worked like maniacs to restore whatever they could via Google cache. It helped, but only a bit. Unfortunately, we could not manage to get all the lost data.

     

    What were the most difficult times for you regarding Lawctopus?

    The most difficult time was when we had to decide the ‘equity’ for five of us. We had just started as friends without a care for all this. But the fight turned ugly and one of co-founders left the team. We had a great shouting match and I don’t think either of us (both pretty calm souls) has ever been that angry. Luckily, we (the friend who left the team and me) are still best friends and are planning something together.

     

    What do you have to say about so many people blindly copying the Lawctopus model?

    The egoist in me says: ‘Imitation is the best form of flattery.’ But yes, this mindless copycatting confuses me. There are so many things to be done. Have a look at Legal Sutra. It was such a nice concept. Someone could have done that. They did not. Now, we are trying to do a Legal Sutra!

    I do not think the present lot will sustain themselves for even two or three years. A couple of the clones are already dead. I thought Project Cloud was great and had invested in better technology but they too are not doing much nowadays. But then again Lawctopus is also far from perfect or even excellent. There is so much to be done and I am sure we will soon have a worthy competitor.

     

    Were there any occupational hazards running Lawctopus?

    The occupational hazard is that you have to be on it daily. You have to be regular or else the readers will lose trust in you. Yes, I do get hate mails. They help us and keep us on our toes. But I do get love mails too. So it sort of balances out. Meditation helps in dealing with all this

     

    Do you provide any work opportunities for law students?

    We do not take interns. But we have a college manager program, which has been improving in its form and effectiveness.

     

    What are your thoughts about raising capital for Lawctopus from investors?

    I have had three/four investor talks. But money does not excite me too much. So, I have never taken it seriously.

     

    What are your plans regarding Lawctopus for the upcoming years?

    We’ll be launching a massive open online law journal (inspired by Legal Sutra), a law school listing and review section (inspired by Zomato), a social networking functionaliy and an app.

    There are two types of growth in my mind: one is slow and steady, but works like magic (just like compound interest does magic to your money) and is achievable with good old hard work. The other type of growth is the massive, black swan types. It takes innovation and hard-work and a bit of luck. The first type of growth should always occur (or else you are dead). One should also strive towards achieving the second by making bold moves and taking big risks; but I don’t think you should be dependent on these.

    So, I don’t think of growth in terms of being ‘ready’ or it being in ‘phases’. You should always be growing.

     

    What does it take to be an entrepreneur?

    One can be entrepreneurial by default and we can even be inspired and encouraged to be entrepreneurial.

    Three skills required for an entrepreneur:

    • Good at ideating: If you struggle to come up with ideas, maybe this is not your cup of tea. Again, if you fear experimenting and failing at things, drop the plans!
    • Convincing: You need to convince the world at large about your idea. It includes your co-founders and investors and clients. To convince you will need truckloads of passion and be great at talking or writing.
    • Determined: Do your thing relentlessly. Take feedback and work on improvements. But do not get bogged down by what others say.

     

    Lastly, what would be your message to law students and young lawyers who want to pursue alternative legal careers or entrepreneurship?

    Just go ahead and do it. Start with small achievable goals. Do not lose too much sleep or money on your plan. Bring improvements to your plans and include consistency in your modus operandi. Learn learn learn. Learn from books. Learn from other people. You do not need to reinvent the wheel.

  • Jeet Soni, Associate, Gnarus Partners, on being an Arbitrator for Willem C. Vis, and his internship experience

    Jeet Soni, Associate, Gnarus Partners, on being an Arbitrator for Willem C. Vis, and his internship experience

    Jitendra (Jeet) Soni graduated from KIIT Law School in 2013. During this time he has interned with Dr. Tamara Relis, External Grant Researcher, The London School of Economics and Political Science, Dr. Rajeev Dhavan, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court of India, Hon’ble Dr. Justice Vineet Kothari, Judge, Rajasthan High Court, and with firms such as AMSS, Trilegal, Wadia Ghandy & Co., among others. He is currently Associate at Gnarus Partners. 

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • Experience as a participant and as an Arbitrator at the Willem C. Vis Moot
    • Work experience at Gnarus Partners and being featured as a rainmaker in legal media
    • His diverse internship experience

    What motivated you to pursue law?

    To be honest, I can’t remember an isolated incident or a point when I decided to study law. So far as I can remember, I always knew what I did not want to do (for instance, joining family business or engineering!) instead of knowing what actually I wanted to do. Going by your question, if there had to be a point, I think it must have been the day I joined coaching classes for law entrance exams. Because after that, I don’t remember even a single day when it dawned on me that ‘let’s try something else’.

    I have had a brilliant journey back there during law school – both personally and professionally. My whole personality underwent a drastic change during my college life and I feel good about myself. Made a lot of friends, committed mistakes, learnt from them, failed a lot more than I succeeded and infact, I did every sort of thing that one can imagine about his/her college days.

     

    What does it take to write a great moot memo?

    (Jeet won the Best Memorial Award at Commonwealth International Law Moot Court Competition during his first year itself.)

    Despite the fact that I achieved early success in moots and was tagged as the best researcher by my gregarious peers, I don’t consider myself as any authority. I’m a hard core believer of individuality and I believe every individual has something worth contributing and sharing. I consider this as a wonderful opportunity to share all little things that I have learnt by virtue of being on both sides of the bench in moot courts. To begin with, never consider any of your piece of writing (be it a memorial, an article or otherwise) as a mere collection of words and research on an A4 page of Microsoft Word. Rather, make an attempt to see it as a ‘living person’ which has to be meticulously brought into existence by using a perfect mix of ‘a well-structured skeleton’ and ‘comprehensive research based flesh and blood’. Not to mention, you should dress it well by using several in-build features of Microsoft Word. In the words of Harvey Spector (from Suits), “people respond to how one is dressed”, so like it or not, this is what you have to do.

    I would club the required skills for writing a good memorial into three broad categories:

    1. Reading and researching
    2. Drafting
    3. Formatting

    The starting point of reading would be the moot problem. Not just once, but several times. Be as curious and inquisitive as you can about the existence of every word, full stop and comma used in the problem. Because there is and there has to be a reason behind it. On research part, always start with the basics and then move deeper into it. If you are reading a relevant case law, book or an article, don’t just jump through pages, instead swim through every word and sentence. Keep noting down the phrases and sentences which you subjectively consider as being useful at drafting stage. If you research online, don’t get impatient if Google doesn’t give you a relevant hit during initial searches. Be patient enough to reach till the last page of Google when it says ‘no more results’ (bad luck, if you have to go so far!). Use every damn keyword (by permutation and combination) that you can think of while using Manupatra, Westlaw or any other research databases. The idea is not to miss out on anything that is of even least relevance.

    Once you are ready with your understanding of facts and research, prepare a skeleton of broad arguments (table of contents essentially). On one hand, it would define the broad contours in which your arguments will operate while on the other, it will give the reader an easy understanding of your thought-process behind the entire memorial. On drafting part, never forget to keep a systematic flow in each and every sentence and argument that you write. To put it simply, it should be one, two, three, so on and so forth, rather than one two, nine, four, and so on. Ideally, you may want to put one line each on the extant law, judicial interpretation followed by its precise application on the set of facts and logical conclusion.

    Always draft your memorial in plain and simple English and be very selective in making a phrase or word ‘italics’ or ‘bold’ within a paragraph. Trust me, you don’t want to grab unnecessary attention of the reader or judge on an argument or phrase which doesn’t feature in your top-four arguments. Not to mention, know everything about a case law before you cite it or an author before you rely upon his commentary. Discuss and even argue passionately with your teammates on every little aspect of the memorial.

    Just because you have found a relevant or a convincing argument in a book or an article, that doesn’t necessarily make the author reliable or authoritative. Conduct a background check, how far that author has been cited by the Courts, if not, read the preface of his book to understand why he should be relied upon. I remember having an in-depth heated debate with my partner-in-moot, Kanad on whether we should cite the article written by a particular author or not! This is what I am talking about.

    Now that our living being is in existence, we should talk about dressing it up! Master the features of Microsoft Word. It is an assurance from a person who has himself learnt from the ‘Help’ option of Microsoft Word that once you have grasped these features, you will be able to format memorials (both sides), within 25-30 minutes at ease. The time you will save here, can be productively utilized for research and drafting.

    I would suggest you to start learning from the basic shortcuts to intricate functions like in-built table of content, cross referencing, in-built table of authorities, styles, multilevel lists, controlling widow/orphan, etc. Once you are comfortable with these features, start using the ‘paragraph marks’ feature (appearing in paragraph on home tab with this sign – ¶) to be more vigilant about unintended formatting errors in the document.

     

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    How was the experience participating in Willem C. Vis International Commercial Moot Court Competition in Vienna as a participant in 2011 and as an arbitrator recently?

    Vis has always been brilliant – back then and now as well. Vis Moot gives a wonderful opportunity to meet the other teams, coaches and arbitrators from across the jurisdictions with the best part being – you meet and greet all while enjoying a glass of fine Austrian wine and finger food. The most glamorous and enriching experience was to be accompanied by Prof. Martin Hunter during the oral rounds in Vienna, under whose overall guidance we had prepared for the Vis.

    Indeed, it was a breath-taking experience to be on both sides of the bench. Being on the participant side – I certainly find myself lucky enough to be a part of a team whose chemistry and bonding was unparallel (and our ties continue to grow even when each one of us is in different jurisdictions). During the memorial drafting days, we used to engage quite more than often in ‘verbal riots’ on an argument of the moot (although as a rule, such altercations used to get settled with delivery of a Dairy Milk as a settlement!). While at the time of submission and sending the e-mail with memorial copies, we would keep our whiskey glasses ready for a night-long celebration. The kind of motivation and all ancillary support (including finances) that we received from college was overwhelming and to this very date, we remain grateful that they all believed in us! Specifically answering your question, Vis continues to be my finest exposure till date.

    Being on the other side of the bench this year was altogether a (renewed experience). It was rather exciting to refrain from asking questions and conduct the proceedings at par with those of international commercial arbitration. This was indeed in sheer contrast with the Indian mooting scenario where (with all due respect and as far as I have observed and heard), judges ask questions with a sole purpose to test whether the students have understood the problem and the law or to make the oral arguments ‘interesting’ or to ‘showoff’ one’s knowledge.

    My personal opinion is that such questions are not appropriate for moot courts that attempt to simulate a real-time dispute. Whatever limited understanding I have gathered about judging a moot is that as a judge, you should strongly refrain from questioning to the extent you refrain in a real time litigation/dispute resolution proceedings. That is the thin line of difference that I learnt as an arbitrator at Vis, which I believe gives maximum space of learning to people on both sides of the bench.

     

    How helpful do you think is mooting for a law student?

    I think this should not even be a question. To understand the real issue myself, I have not only read the opinion of past interviewees on this website but I have also interacted with my juniors and a few interns at our firm on the issue. From what I understand is that the scenario amongst the law students is characterized by rather a ‘polarized debate’ between the proponents and opponents of moot court competitions, with each positing themselves on opposing extremes of the spectrum on this point. That apart, I remain confident that mooting is much more than being a ‘list of extra-curricular activity’ on your CV.

    I have been passionate about mooting and continue to be so till date! It is rather a deceiving thought that mooting belongs to those who intend to litigate. From my assessment and experience, a person who has workedon a moot with dedication and has derived the maximum learning out of it, can use such experience in any field s/he would take, whether litigation, corporate or otherwise. I mooted back then and today I am a transactional lawyer (often working on complex M&A deals involving a range of document drafting) and believe me or not, till date, I remain thankful to moots for giving me all these skills. You learn to be comprehensive in research.

    You learn to put out your best research in precise words on a document. You learn to adhere to timelines. You learn to critically analyze whole range of issues left out by the statutes, courts and authors failing to clarify and/or thinking beyond the ‘conventional’ realms of thinking. You learn the sophisticated document management skills including drafting and formatting the document at professional level. Tell me, are these skills only relevant for a litigating lawyer? I am sure they aren’t and that’s why I think, there is a need to reclassify this debate itself. From the above points that I made, it is clear that mooting can give you much more than mere a CV-showcase, provided you have a direction in your efforts and approach.

     

    You have won a Best Article Award and also have had a number of other great publications. How important is it to publish articles being in a law school?

    Very, very important! Tell me, what is an article all about – is it only about words that we write? Or is it a collage of the time-consuming research that we did? Answer is a BIG NO. An article in simple terms is your way to contribute to the legal academia, using your own analytical thoughts based on the fallouts of the existing literature. Something more than what exists already on Google or any legal database. As a law student, when you write (even writing without the intent of publishing) or publish an article, you showcase that you are constantly engaging in brain activity and are inquisitive towards the unsolved issues and in the process, you also make a remarkable impact on your CV.

    At the end of the day, it is a call which we have to make – whether we want to fiercely cite the opinion we took on a certain legal question or to quote, every time what has been quoted since centuries in all textbooks, case laws and by every Tom, Dick and Harry.

     

    How should one get started about publication?

    Fortunately, we are law students who are required to research and write papers as a part of our curriculum or during internships as a part of the work that we have been assigned. Start from that! Always remember to retain your research and notes on any hot-topic that you prepared during your assignments, moots or internships. Whenever you find time, start with that as the base and take that to its logical end. That’s the easiest way to pile up the publications!

    It never took me more than a week since all the publications that I have, are solely based on the work that I did either as a part of my curriculum, moots or internships.

     

    What procedure did you follow to apply to the law firms you worked with?

    I have no qualms in admitting the unspoken rule of law firms in India (generally but not always!) that there is much emphasis on the tangible factors such as ‘institutional name’, ‘CGPA’, ‘uncles and contacts’, etc.. These factors sadly but inadvertently dominate the decision-making process for granting internships. Having said that, being a first generation law student from my family (with absolutely no nexus in the legal fraternity) and hailing from a young institution which was in the process of establishing itself in the market, it was very difficult for me to secure an internship. It was disheartening to see constant rejections at a stage when I desperately needed an exposure in my area of interest (corporate law).

    My story of first law firm internship is rather a bit unconventional – it was through LinkedIn that I got in touch with Mr. Aditya Prakash Rao, the then Senior Associate at AMSS, under whom my friend, Kanadhad interned. Based upon his performance during that internship, Aditya was more than willing to put me in the process of internship and eventually, I secured my first law firm internship. At this stage, I suggest the readers to be active on LinkedIn and build as much of a professional network as they can. It can help you in securing guidance of the professionals and sometimes internships too. It worked for me and I am positive it might work for you as well!

    Once I got the much needed opportunity, I made sure to make the most out of it. I was on my toes all throughout. Going forward, during every subsequent internship, I made it a point to set and break my own precedents of working standards. And rest is history now!

     

    What does a normal workday at Gnarus Partners entail?

    I can’t recollect a single instance during my tenure at Gnarus which can be remotely categorized as ‘normal’ or ‘routine exercise’. It would not be too abstract to say that my role in the firm has been much beyond the conventional contours of my appointment letter. When you decide to join an established institutional framework, you are aware well in advance about the responsibilities that you will undertake there. Everything is set, you just have to get in and make yourself comfortable there. But the challenges accumulate and the story gets interesting, when you decide to join an institution in the making.

    Before I could even absorb my role and responsibility there, I was entrusted with a role which I could have never imagined. Within my first month, I got the opportunity to sit in the board room of one of the biggest media houses in the country, and conduct the ‘closing’ of an acquisition transaction. Well, if I think about that moment in retrospect, I feel embarrassed about knowing nothing at that point of time. What gives me a great deal of satisfaction today is the role that ‘moment’ played in shaping my mind and to know my place in the firm.

    Slowly and steadily, I think I have come down to know my role in the firm very well and today I don’t consider this as an entity anywhere distinct of me. In my 1 year of experience with Gnarus, I am proud to admit that I have not lived the same day twice! (Oh, yes!). I have witnessed a variety of matters. Some of them were indeed quite related to my comfort zone and many others – I knew nothing and by the end of the day, I walked with a great deal of satisfaction of having learnt something. Apart from leading the firm upfront with Rishi in transactions, negotiations and other drafting work, I also had my own share of experiences of being an IT guy (fixing internet bugs in office), HR person (fixing up internships) and a few times in the capacity of a plumber and electrician too!

    Ever since I joined Gnarus, my introspection has reflected in my growth both in terms of a learner as well as a thinker. However, whenever I think in retrospect today, it gives me immense satisfaction to see myself to have mirrored the evolution of the institution, having had the opportunity to contribute to it in my own modest way.

    Before joining Gnarus, I had worked in the capacity of an Assistant Manager (Legal) at Kotak Mahindra Bank for roughly around 2 and half months. At Kotak, I essentially dealt with the cases in relation to SARFAESI Act and other related matters. I could never relate myself to the work which I was undertaking there and precisely that was the reason I decided to make an early move to do what I really wanted. That apart, till date I enjoy a very strong bond with my mentor at Kotak, Mr. Manish Kumar Gupta who heads the Delhi office.

     

    What is your take on working at a smaller law firm in early years of career rather than working at a very big law firm?

    To clear the shades of doubts, let us be clear on one thing – the size, name or repute of an organization are all irrelevant considerations in determining the kind of exposure you will get. In my personal opinion, at the cost of being a little cliché, it is the effort and willingness of your mentor with whom you work that matters the most. At the cutting edge of the profession where one is looking for opportunities and challenges, one should be at a place and with a person who will provide one with interesting and varied workload that will guide him to push boundaries and set new standards. That will surely involve a constant motivation on one hand and constructive criticism of your performance on the other by your mentor. The level of interaction with this type of mentor shall range from teaching you the very basics to pointing out mistakes from your work which you believes is your 100%. This mentor will always strive to guide your thought process and invoke your hidden analytical skills, rather than giving you external ‘directions’. Without any penumbra of doubts on your capabilities, he will make you work in your own sphere, reason with you, and not discard your suggestions unceremoniously. I am glad that I have found everything which I could have asked for in my mentor, Mr. Rishi Anand.

    Needless to mention, I am not advocating for either sides, rather I am of firm opinion that opportunities lie across the spectrum (both in big law firms and the start-ups) and students need to think more broadly as to where do they actually belong. It might not be always necessary that after graduation, every student shall be well aware of his areas of interest. For them, it is far more important to engage in as many experiences and choices as they can which will help them immensely in exploring and locating their niche. But what is most important is the person with whom you shall be working!

     

    Does the entire team go through brainstorming sessions for transactions and deals that the firm does or does your Partner finalize everything and tell you what you have to do?

    Well, if I had to give it a ratio, I would say 99 percent of what goes into the transactions is his experience and knowledge, with the best part being our involvement at every stage of decision that he takes. The great thing about Rishi is that he knows that the associates (at early stage of their careers) are not as confident or convinced about their subject, as the Partner is. To fill up this gap, he makes a point to explain us the intricacy of each transaction and strategy to deal with it and at the same time, he keeps his own decision open for discussion. We work as a team and we argue, debate and discuss, but we never forget that we are working towards a common goal. Yes, I admit we have creative differences, but it’s not like ‘it’s my idea’ and ‘it’s his idea’ in our firm. The idea or the approach that works for the client is the best idea. So, either he convinces us or we convince him, but the communication line is open. We work freely with Rishi with no ego at play, neither a Partner’s nor a Senior’s. It’s only about work! In my limited years of experience I have never seen anyone so deeply involved with his team. He sees a part of him in us and try to build up us every single day. Any other Partner would just tell his associates, get this work done. But Rishi takes our views and it’s our excitement to take up that responsibility that drives him. He knows we can carry out any transactions, no matter how big or small it is, only if all of us are equally devoted. That’s what teamwork is all about and that’s how we have been working since Day 0 till now.

     

    Do you accept interns at Gnarus Partners? How does one apply?

    Yes, we do accept interns on rolling basis throughout the year. Our internship program has been designed consciously to reach out to the ‘bright and unexplored talent’ (as clichéd as it may sound) we all know but no one admits that within the internship process that exists and operates, there is an over-emphasis on tangible factors. The overall result of this ‘sad state of affairs’ is that, numerous brilliant legal minds out there who are not in favourable positions are excluded to even get a platform to perform.

    It was our conscious decision to make our firm accessible to such talent and once they join, making the firm inclusive. For these reasons, we have fostered an inclusive work environment where interns are treated at par with Associates from the day they arrive, where they are encouraged to think critically and where their reasons are heard patiently. Acting against the Indian convention, we have developed an open door policy which ensures that interns are treated as an integral part of the firm. Be it a quick question on interpretation of law or drafting, or if they need any informal advice, at Gnarus, you will find the entire team more than willing to exchange their thoughts with you.

    The process to apply for an internship at Gnarus is pretty simple – send your CV via e-mail with a cover letter to delhi@gnaruspartners.com and CC it to jitendra@gnaruspartners.com (which is me), at least three months prior to the period during which internship is being sought. Shortlisted candidates shall be invited to complete an ‘internship questionnaire’ followed by a quick response from our side. The factors that we consider while evaluating a person’s candidature do not start and end with his/her résumé and tangible academic results. Rather, we look for qualities which reflect beyond these. We believe that there exists certain parameters which cannot be objectively verified yet constitute an integral part of one’s intellect. With this background, we have specifically designed our internship and recruitment policy to enable us to learn more about the applicant as an individual.

    We are an entrepreneurial firm that expects people joining us to be brimming with ideas, innovation and energy. In addition, we look out for people who have a wide range of experience and interests outside the legal arena as well. We require our prospective applicants to have highly effective communication skills to advise our clients on sophisticated legal and commercial issues in simple terms. Other core skills which we deem as fascinating and essential in our prospective applicants include, amongst others, a good sense of humour, commercial awareness and independent thinking.

    We truly understand that applying for a job or internship at a law firm can be daunting and time-consuming. At Gnarus, we assure our participation at all levels to ensure smooth sailing of application. Once we receive applicants at Gnarus in accordance with the terms of our recruitment policy, we make it a point to read each and every application with utmost care and strive to communicate our decision at the earliest.

    It is our understanding that the applicant will gain more out of the process if they have a clear cut understanding of the values of our firm and their future aspirations. Afterall, selection is a mutual process whereby they decide whether we are right for them and we reciprocate.

     

    What would you consider as an exceptional internship performance?

    Frankly, I do not know what exactly is exceptional, but I can surely share the ingredients which are likely to make one’s internship quite exceptional. Always be an ‘innocent learner’. As I have always conveyed to our interns, it is a good thing to know ‘nothing’. It is not a traumatic thought, rather it is a sign that you are open to learning. The day you make yourself believe that you know ‘everything’, you shut down your avenues of learning and growth. If you don’t know about a particular subject, admit it and try to read, discuss and know everything about it. Never try to proclaim that you know things, when you don’t. You can’t fool them forever; they are professionals who are much more experienced than you. Today or tomorrow, you’ll encounter the reality. In case of doubts, never be afraid to approach the supervisor and clear the same at its very inception rather than sitting and sleeping over them. Try to focus on doing your work in the most diligent manner and by putting your own original thoughts. Existing literature or resources are there to guide you and not for (Ctrl+C) (Ctrl+V) purposes. And lastly, your contact with your supervisors and colleagues should not be limited during the duration of your internship only. Rather, keep your supervisors in the loop. Trust me, you will need them – not as a ‘fancy contact’ in your smartphones but to guide you throughout your career.

     

    You were featured in various top-notch deals that were published on popular legal portals such as Legally India, Bar & Bench, etc. How do you feel about it?

    One of the most important things about this profession is that you are required to not only work hard round the clock, but also to remain constantly visible in the market. Your career graph won’t take a leap if you remain dormant in the market with least interaction with the people in the industry (physically or virtually). I am not suggesting that one should work solely for the purposes of getting featured on portals. In my opinion, publication merely symbolizes the amount of hard work and risks that one has undertaken in the background. However, the point that I want to highlight is that it is not something one should waste his time craving for.

    Coming to your question, indeed, it is a great feeling to feature on these popular portals whose reader base is humongous within our legal fraternity. But I have never worked keeping this as an end. What fascinates me? It is the genuine feedback of clients that gives me more satisfaction than surfing the internet and viewing these news items. Again, I would not have featured outside the contours of ‘LinkedIn’ and ‘Facebook’ if I were not working with Rishi and at Gnarus. As I mentioned earlier, Rishi believes in sharing everything that our firm achieves with the entire team, therefore, when I saw my name out there along with his name, I was not at all surprised.

     

    Lastly, what would be your advice to the law students interested in going into the corporate world?

    It has been my constant endeavour throughout this interview to share my experiences with generous helpings of both bluntness and candor. I would advise all the readers out there to be original in their approach, not let their ‘raw talents’ be overshadowed by mindless status quo. Before approaching any assignment, put your thought in it and try to create something of immense value without prejudicing any part of your originality. Stick to it! Novel things are always appreciated. Set your previous work as a benchmark for yourself.

    If you have not worked earlier on that assignment, then keep the best product available as your benchmark, and try to raise the level of the current work from your existing/previous work. Imbibe this habit so deep down inside you that your tolerance to mediocrity lowers to minimum. Keep your work and yourself open to criticism, never consider yourself as ‘born smart’. Patience and perseverance shall ultimately take you to the heights which you can never fathom.

  • Sourav Dan, Associate, AZB & Partners, on Intellectual Property Rights, and working for Govt. of Maharashtra

    Sourav Dan, Associate, AZB & Partners, on Intellectual Property Rights, and working for Govt. of Maharashtra

    sourav-dan2Sourav Dan is a graduate from KIIT Law School, batch of 2013. He has deep rooted interest in national and international Intellectual Property laws. He has worked in IP law for top notch law firms and in a very short period of time after graduation he has been appointed as a member of the Drafting Committee of Govt. of Maharashtra due to his expertise in the sector of IP laws. In this interview we asked him a few questions about:

    • Enduring interest and research work in IP laws
    • Work at Anand & Anand and in the IPR wing of AZB partners.
    • Being selected as a Drafting Committee member of the Govt. of Maharashtra

    Tell us about your life before college.

    Being the only child of working parents, a major part of my childhood was spent in a crèche. I studied at the Assembly of God Church School in Calcutta and was an average student.  With my inclination towards Biology, the obvious choice was Science in 10+2. Initially, I wanted to be a doctor and even cleared the entrance exams, but I also gave the law entrance exams just as a fail-safe. However, as the saying goes: “Man proposes and God disposes”, I ended up being a lawyer, just like my parents. My father was an IP Attorney and my mother even though a law graduate never practiced until she retired from banking services.

     

    How does a B.Sc. LLB differ from a B.A. LLB?

    My Father was an IP Attorney. When he learnt that I have been called for the counseling program at KIIT, he advised me to opt for the B.Sc. LL.B. program as it would help me to understand the scientific background present in patent related issues. Academically speaking, it did give me an edge in understanding the patent cases taught at law school in the IP curriculum. Further, it also helped me in my IP (Hons.) Specialization. Given the scientific background, I was able to grasp the chemical structure, mathematical formulas and biological nomenclature easily. I would advise law aspirants to choose a stream keeping in view their professional aspirations. Given, the fact that many law schools provide options in choosing the stream, a proper understanding and knowledge of the course structure, faculty, infrastructure coupled with industry requirements shall prove beneficial in choosing a particular stream like BSc. LL.B, B.A. LL.B. or B.B.A. LL.B.

     

    sourav-dan4What motivated you to start writing?

    It all started when I came across an essay competition organized by GNLU while I was in the field of IPR.  The essay competition caught my eye as even five years back; it was hard to find essay competition dedicated to IP. It was vacation time and I literally had to write the essay all without any guidance or review. All I had was couple of books borrowed from the Law School Library and handful of articles from Westlaw. The only help I got was from my jurisprudence teacher, Mr. Ahmad Ali Khan who made me sit down with him and taught me the art of applying footnotes according to the Blue Book Edition. Even today, I remember most of the rules of Bluebook style of formatting (laughs). Quite surprisingly, I was adjudged as second in the essay competition and was called upon to receive the prize in the first convocation of GNLU. I believe it was this win, which propelled me to pen down more articles. There was no looking back after that. The best advice to get started in writing articles is to read more articles particularly from the reputed journals. I won’t single out any specific ones because the journal might contain articles which might be so complicated, that a young law student might not read it till the end and leave halfway disinterested and disgruntled. The safest bet is to choose articles on topics which one likes, it can be on any subject and read them. As you would read more, one would come across the underlying issues and then research more to find a solution to the issue and pen down the thoughts.

     

    How would you select a specific journal and approach them for publication?

    The more you read articles on a specified area of law, the better you know which journals are held in high regard. Primarily, I have seen the reputation as well as the editorial board of journals before sending them for publication. Often there was call for papers and I had happily send them my write ups for publication. Sometimes it was selected, sometimes not. But I never stepped back from trying. I used to work on my project topics diligently and transform them into articles. Structure of any article remains the same as we are taught in schools, introduction, body and conclusion. The only thing, which changes is the number of paragraphs and the style of writing. It can be giving solutions to an already existing problem or highlighting the issues and then giving solutions or it can even be a comparative approach on the topic. It’s about your contribution to that area of law. As I said earlier, the more you read, the more you know and the more you know, the more you understand what the field lacks and hence your research is to be directed to that path. It can be your interpretation also on any particular issue. Any issue is just like a prism, there are various angles to see through it and analyze the same. Hence, the various solutions one can reach.

     

    What got you interested in IP and internet law?

    My father being an IP Attorney, discussed a lot about brands with me since my school days. I got bitten by the IP bug back then. Once in law school, I used to read mostly on IP developments around the world. I became so engrossed that I started subscribing to the any blogs I found on IP. I am still subscribed to them! My professor at law school, Dr. Tabrez Ahmed always encouraged me to read on the subject. Internet laws is a strange bed companion with IP, particularly with Trademarks and Copyright and hence my exposure to the same. My association with Mr. Rodney D. Ryder fuelled my interest on data privacy laws, encryption technologies and internet laws. I did learn a lot from him apart from law. He is a gem of a person and is friendly to the core. You can discuss with him anything starting from literature to law. I believe that after passing away of my father in 2011, Mr. Ryder and Dr. Ahmad mentored me a lot of credit goes to them for my interest in this field. I would also like to add the very nature of IP laws is very intriguing. This area of law is fluid, dynamic and dependant on lot of external factors like economics, development, policies, human rights and many others. It’s one law which can be so abstract and yet so determinate at the same time. The best part is you always have the best of reasons to take a side and pursue or argue. I think if one is interested in one particular area of law, he/she is bound to devote more time into it. I would not say it gives expertise, but definitely more knowledge for sure. I am not competent enough to say whether it is important or not but I can claim, it does help a lot in moulding one’s career and choices.

     

    sourav-dan1

    How well do you think your education at law school prepared you for real world practice?

    According to me, it did prepare me well, if not fully. It provided an adequate foundation or one can say a platform and I think that is the purpose of education. Law is an applied science and can’t be learnt theoretically alone. The gap is the well known conundrum; law in theory – law in practice dichotomy. Internships provides the best and the unique opportunities to put the theories to test in a controlled environment. The best part of internships is you don’t set to lose anything (apart from making grave mistakes and listing yourself down) and you can gain immense exposure from the exercise. Internships are the best opportunities to apply the law school teaching into an arena. It provides the perfect platform to understand the dynamics of law.

     

    Do you think being from a non-NLU law college impeded your career in any way?

    Honestly speaking, I didn’t get replies from many law firms which may be due to my non-NLU tag. Personally, I don’t think so it impeded in any way. I joined the best IP law firm of the Country even before I passed out and currently I am working with one of the best law firms of India. However, I think that NLUs provide a better launch pads than non-NLUs and hence pushes one ahead in the race. From there it’s a solitary journey to long winding road and only the best reach the goal.

     

    How important are grades if one takes a long term view of one’s career?

    Almost all employers have a CGPA cut off for calling for interviews and hence the obsession for higher grades. Additionally, higher the CGPA, higher is your rank and as most employers interviews a number of candidates for a particular position, higher ranking do play a major role in selecting one. Further, an employer has limited time to interview each candidate to understand their potential and unless one is Sigmund Freud, high CGPA and ranking do provide an easy criteria for selection and is often the safest bet also. Just like a higher price tag on an item makes us believe the item as exquisite, better than others and exclusive, the quest for higher grade follows the same logic. Answering your second question, I would say it’s the rule of nature; survival of the fittest and hence the fittest shall survive and prosper the long, windy road of a legal professional. Hard work, Patience, determination and courage are the key words for a legal career; there is no overnight success. It comes slowly by practice, only the well-equipped ones survive, and hence one needs to have patience to learn, adapt and grow in this field. Don’t expect to become Harvey Spectre in your first year.

     

    How do online courses help a student?

    The online courses enhanced my knowledge and understanding of my area of law many folds. They supplement and complement the knowledge on any domain of law. In my case, the online courses from WIPO provided me a better understanding of IP laws in general. More so, the courses of WIPO are country-neutral and provide you with an international/global outlook of the IP laws including the treaties, which are often skipped in law school’s curriculum. It also provided me with an opportunity to interact with students from all over the world and I was quite surprised to find many working professional as students of these courses. The best part about these courses are you get to know as to how the world or your peers thinks about that thing which can be case, treaty or even a provision of law. I do believe that these courses help in the training of working professional. Now, even in India Continuing Legal Education (CLE) is being taken seriously and these online courses provides one of the best ways to keep yourself updated and to discuss freely with your peers from around the world. You not only get additional knowledge but you also get a comparative view on the topic. It’s priceless!

     

    How did you secure your internships?

    The mantra is to apply early aka first mover advantage as in summer and winter law firms are flocked by law students. Secondly, keep following up by email or by phone. I planned out my internship based on the complexity of the matters handled by the firm. For e.g. my first internship was in a full service law firm which handled a sizeable number of IP matters. I learnt the basics there, basic case laws on trademarks and slowly progressing to specialist law firms which handles the most complicated matters. As my interest focused on IP laws, it was easier for me to isolate boutique IP firms and apply during summer and winter slots. All my e-mails to the law firms was followed by follow up emails and phone calls just to make sure my name is on the loop. It worked often.

     

    What kind of work did you typically find yourself doing as an intern?

    I was fortunate enough to get research oriented work during all my internships. Generally research ranged from isolated topics to case law research for litigation.  These helped me to learn the art of creating propositions in litigation and manipulate the same depending on the facts of the case. I wouldn’t say it varied significantly on the type of work but yes, it varied on the complexity of the matters in which I was able to assist the team. I distinctly remember my internship experience with K&S Partners, when one fine day a senior associate called me up to find a case on a principle of administrative law which he intend to rely on during an IPAB proceedings scheduled for hearing two hours hence. It feels great when someone entrusts you with a job just because of his/her faith on you.  But personally my internship with Anand and Anand was my best internship so far. The sheer complexity of the matters, the research propositions which were nerve wracking and the litigation strategies that were circuitous enough to make you draw flow charts on your notebook to just understand the scenario better. It is at this place, I learnt that for every offence in your litigation strategy, you should have defence ready and you should be able to comprehend the counter attack way before you battle it out in Court. Inspired from Art of War, I believe.

     

    Any tips for crafting the model CV and facing an interview?

    First rule: do not make it more than two pages. Nobody reads entirely. Prioritise the biggest achievements as the reader might lose interest by the time he reaches the end of the page. Preparation for a interview takes time and is a process. And it is better not to be kept till the day. Barring the obvious tips, I would say read your CV thoroughly. You don’t want to be caught off guard while answering something which you have done in your second or third year. If your CV mentions lot of articles, make it a point to know at least the summary of the each article. The interviewer might be interested in knowing what you wrote on that article

     

    What myths about the legal industry did your internships help dispel?

    I always had the notion that a lawyer works alone in a matter. As soon as I started working I realized that it’s all about a team play. Each lawyer plays his/her part and a good team leader handpicks his team based on the requirements and expertise. The team works like a clock and a good team leader makes it comfortable for everyone to wrap up the work accurately and efficiently.

     

    sourav-dan5What is a regular work day as Associate at AZB & Partners like?

    As I stay quite far from the office, I start my day with a long one-hour train journey in Mumbai’s iconic local trains (giggles), accessing e-mails or reading news. But mostly, I have spent it reading e-mails from the multitudes of IP Blogs I have subscribed for keeping myself updated about the recent developments happening in India and worldwide. I don’t want to be surprised by my client informing me about the recent inclusion of any trademark as a well-known trademark on the list. A normal workday entails replying to e-mails, clearing up the pending-work list and managing deadlines and if any urgent work comes in finishing it on a priority basis.  As I am the junior most in the team, my work is often reviewed by at least two seniors before sending it off to the client.

     

    What is the procedure for applying for an internship at AZB?

    The procedure is simple and standardized. Apply via the standard ID mentioning the requisite details along with the time frame for internship.

     

    How do you think interns can get noticed in a positive way in the limited time they have?

    Imagine a place with more than a hundred lawyers and couple of interns, all eager to leave a mark but, more or less, all of them do the assigned work. So, the question is how one cuts above the rest given a limited time frame. I think here is where your interest, creativity, desire to learn and speed with accuracy comes into consideration. Show interest and your desire to learn as these are the indicators of your desire to grow as a lawyer. As law firms are always on a time crunch, timely delivery of good work is always praised and acknowledged. Add on some curiosity to learn and you score well in your limited time. Personally, I always believed that the phrase ‘Curiosity killed the cat’ is restricted to cats only (No offence intended).

     

    What is work-life balance like?

    At times I have left office at 4 AM. It does get taxing sometimes due to either complicated issues on which opinion is sought or a tight deadline. The work-life balance is often shaken but, I think it is not impossible to maintain. The initial days are the hardest as one does not only the work assigned but is also on a mission to create an impression on the management. In a corporate setting the illusory competition to leave an expression of a work horse drives most to unsettle the work-life balance. Additionally, in a huge organization, the working protocol which involves multiple layers of review often makes the entire process tedious and time consuming and hence, late hours.

     

    What does your role as member of Drafting Committee of Govt. of Maharashtra entail?

    At the outset, I would consider myself lucky to be appointed as a member of the Committee at this stage of my career. Primarily, it involves providing legal support to the committee in drafting the Maharashtra Clinical Establishments Bill. The responsibilities includes attending the drafting committee meetings, highlighting the inconsistencies with the Central Act, legal research on provisions of the Bill, thorough vetting of the provisions of the Bill for legal complications and also providing legal solutions to the multiple problems which often arises in inclusion or deletion of provisions of the Bill. Personally, I have gained an immense exposure to the dynamics involved in framing a legislation and got a live example of the oft-applied concept of ‘intention of the legislature’ thorough my association with the Committee.

     

    Lastly, what would be your message to a law student aspiring to excel at work?

    I will say that do not waste your five years of law school time thinking about where you would be after five years. Try not to miss the moments, which can give you the best days of your life time. Even bunking and lazing in your hostel room can be fun (done it umpteen times). Make friends, enjoy and keep in touch with them as these will be the very same people whom you can trust and rely. Just know no matter how much bland the law books are, Law is fun. Have fun with law. Probably no other subject allows you so much creativity and flexibility. Life has its own way of settling things down. In the end, believe in yourself and in your dreams.

  • Avani Bansal, Advocate, District Court, Harda, on studying at Oxford and Harvard, and litigation

    Avani Bansal, Advocate, District Court, Harda, on studying at Oxford and Harvard, and litigation

    avani-bansal3Avani Bansal is a graduate from HNLU, Raipur, batch of 2011. Upon graduation she was awarded eight gold medals in different subjects. Thereafter she pursued the BCL programme at Oxford and later the M.Phil programme. She left a fully paid scholarship programme for her D.Phil from Oxford, to return to India, and started practising in her home town, Harda, Madhya Pradesh.

    In this interview we speak to her about:

    • Being an overachieving student
    • Her experience as a judicial clerk under Justice Dalweer Bhandari and in International law
    • Coming back to India to start litigation practice at District Court of Harda, MP

     

    Tell us about your life before law school.

    The story of my life: I was born and raised in a small district – Harda in Madhya Pradesh. I went to a boarding school, the Daly College, Indore for the final two years of schooling. Thereafter I decided to pursue law and topped the entrance of HNLU. After spending five great years at HNLU, both personally and professionally, I decided to try my luck at my dream law school. It worked and I was admitted to the BCL (LL.M) programme.

    A year well spent, passed by quickly than I imagined and I decided to continue for another year at Oxford, this time pursuing M.Phil in International and Environmental Law, and thereby hoping to earn a specialisation, hone my research skills and add another unforgettable year to my life. It went as planned and then came the crucial moment when I found myself at crossroads. I was one step away from realising my childhood dream – to earn the highest degree in my chosen field (a D.Phil). Pursuing a D.Phil (Ph.D) without scholarship was not an option.

    I tried as hard as I could and to my utter delight and surprise, I managed to get both an offer and more importantly a scholarship to cover for my D.Phil expense, even thought the latter came at the very last hour. I signed the offer for the D.Phil and then when the path seemed all clear, I paused to ask – if I really want a D.Phil which comes at the cost of the next three –four years.

    If entering academia is not what I want, was the pursuit of a D.Phil, only to get the golden letters ‘Dr.’ added to my name? After some mindboggling conversations with friends, family and ‘myself’, the little voice inside spoke. I quit the D.Phil, with apologies to those who helped in making the offer a reality and decided to come back to India to pursue my dream. As I write, I am on my desk at Harda, practicing in the Harda Trial Court with eyes full of dreams and passion for building a career in legal practice in India.

     

    How did you decide to study law?

    I was always inspired by the idea of making a difference. Law appealed to me because it spoke directly to social issues. As a lawyer I needed to be aware and sensitive to the society – from the bigger picture to the life of the autowallah. So, I hoped to learn tremendously without any restrictions of a ‘specialised field’. With law I thought I could continue to be interested in everything and thereby make a profession of living intensely. Besides, my passion for speaking did go well with my image of a lawyer. Finally and perhaps most crucially the person who inspires me the most – my father did his law degree, though he never practiced for lack of an English education. He saw a dream and I was thrilled to learn that we share that dream. Hence, pursuing law looked like the destined path, looked at from all counts.

     

    What was it like representing your school at the International Conference of Round Square?

    It was the year 2005 and Daly College, Indore (my school) was chosen to represent itself at the International Conference of Round Square, which is an annual conglomeration of the best schools around the world. If our presentation was to be successful, we were promised a permanent international membership of the Round Square International. A team of three students including me along with our Principal Dr. Sumer Singh and our Round Square Director Madam Badwar went to Melbourne with our hopes high. It was my first international trip, and so I was doubly excited to venture in a new and unfamiliar world. Making a presentation in front of the heads of schools from around the world was a life-changing experience.

    We won the international membership and friendship around the world.  I remember going on a bike tour in Melbourne as part of the adventure day and bruised my knee as the bike tumbled a 360 degree. But I was still all smiles. Sometimes venturing into an unknown world makes us realize the existence of some deeper worlds inside and gives us a greater knowledge of ourselves. It was from Australia that I first saw both India and myself in a new light, challenging the usual way of life that I was accustomed to. The ring of ‘no worries’ in the market place touched me deeply as I was seeing a society which was very warm and hospitable. Melbourne left deep impressions on me, like all firsts do!

     

    How did you strike a balance between academic and non academic pursuits?

    I was always a person with varied interests and I was very clear as I stepped in law school, that my aim was to work towards a well-rounded personality. Therefore I tried my hand at all possible opportunities that HNLU presented me with, both academic and non-academic. The academic pursuits such as mooting, publications, internships, conferences etc. were a natural extension of my will to explore the different aspects of a law school. But taking the five years at law school as an opportunity to work on myself as a person, I continued to participate in the non-academic pursuits as well.

    I was a dancer at school and so performed in different cultural functions at college. Debating, dramatics I could explore only in a limited way. The lack of sports infrastructure at HNLU during my days meant that physical fitness was a neglected area. However, after the first year, mooting really did take over all my other interests and I enjoyed every moot thoroughly as it left me much more confident of myself. My eight semester saw me handling three different moots, with two international moots.  I remember a friend asking me if I wasn’t always into too many things at the same time but perhaps as I explained then, I was always a person who could manage better with more things on my plate. I love to fill my day with different and varied tasks and that alone makes me productive.

     

    Tell us about your experience interning at the Ministry of External Affairs and ISIL.

    My fascination with trying to understand the bigger picture drew me slowly towards developing an interest in public international law. Participating in Stetson, Henry Dunant and Williem C. Vis and Jessup only fuelled the fire. Interning with MEA was inspired by trying to take a closer look at the working of the Ministry. Though that didn’t happen but the internship was a useful one as it exposed me to a rich material on public international law and state diplomacy. The ISIL internship came with multiple advantages.

    I could browse through several books and unheard journals on different subjects related to public international law and work on the upcoming moot simultaneously. Being at Bhagwan Das Road, next to the Indian Law Institute, with chai stall in the vicinity had it all for a perfect one month educational break. The application procedure for both these internships was standard. I wrote to the concerned person and got accepted. Though at ISIL, a reference through a teacher did expedite things.

     

    What was your stint in judicial clerkship like?

    (Avani has interned with the National Judicial Academy and Justice Dalweer Bhandari’s office.)

    My internship decisions were based on a desire to experience the variety of roles that I could take up on graduating. So, I wanted to explore what the different worlds entailed – that of litigation, academia, judiciary, media house, corporate firm etc. National Judicial Academy is a great place and interning there did help me push my intellectual boundaries. Since the place had some of the best academics, learning from their feedback proved very useful in the longer run. Also to see how an organisation such as the NJA works gave me insights into the training of the judiciary and the need for it.

    Its location and the beautiful premises were a very welcome change from the otherwise lack of attention on aesthetics at work-places. As for the judicial clerkship, I had applied through college and was allotted an internship with Justice Dalweer Bhandari amongst other judges on a purely random basis. But it proved to be a great stroke of luck as I learned tremendously at Justice Bhandari’s office. I had the opportunity to brief Justice Bhandari every day during my internship.

    The experience of reading several files in a day and discussing them with a seating judge of the Supreme Court, taught me about a judge’s perspective and way of functioning.  It also made me realise that a judge’s task of ‘finding the truth’ in the light of law is not an easy one and entails great responsibility on his/her part. Most importantly it helped me realise the importance of judiciary in the Indian legal system. His office was a very welcoming place to work and so it turned out to be a really good experience.

     

    How did you apply for your internship under Mr. Fali S. Nariman?

    I applied for an internship with Mr. Fali S. Nariman whilst at Oxford. He asked for a recommendation from the dean of the law faculty, Oxford, receiving which the internship was confirmed for my winter break. It took me a while to soak in the feeling that I was watching Fali from close quarters as I had been in awe of him from early days at law school. The work at his office was not very different from other litigation offices. I worked on the matters that I was given. Perhaps it was an internship that was crucial more from an experiential viewpoint than from a practical one.

     

    What was your time interning at law firms like?

    (Avani interned with Amarchand Mangaldas & AZB & Partners in her penultimate year of law school.)

    My decision to pursue a variety of internships meant that I didn’t have the opportunity to intern at a mid-size firm. So, when I went to these big ones in my fourth year, I was all prepared to do every kind of work. But to my surprise, I got very intellectually stimulating work and didn’t have to complain about just lifting files or printing as some of my colleagues had complained while working at other law firms. I was working with the litigation team at Amarchand and got an opportunity to work on some remarkable matters whilst there. At AZB, I did a variety of work which made me feel very confident about the breadth of practice that I could be looking as future prospects.

     

    Would you say your law school prepared you for the practical work which you had to do at your internship?

    I am not sure any law school can prepare someone for the practical work during internships. But if one’s theoretical foundation is strong and one is adept in basic research skills, with the right set of attitude, it’s not difficult to make the most of one’s internship. Internships, I think are not just an opportunity to showcase your talent but also to develop it further. The traditional notion of pursuing a law firm internship only in the later years at law school is not necessarily correct.

    As long as one is giving one’s best and is willing to learn, all internships can be fruitful.

    The bottom line to remember is that “No one out there teaches you a thing! It is upto you to see what is it that you can learn.” Based on this, it is difficult for me to say that one internship was better than the other for they all helped me in different ways and sharpened different skills. But if I have to be honest, my first internship with RLEK – Rural Litigation Entitlement Kendra (NGO), Dehradun stood out for me. They took us to tour the villages in Uttarakhand and as a first year law student, observing the lives of people in mountainous villages struck more chords with my soul than an internship at any other place did.

    The best experiences are those where we cannot point out what it was about them that made them special. But a group of law students, talking law to the people in villages in their language, understanding their perspectives on life, law and other things, and all this set in inexplicable natural beauty was an experience that I can never forget.

     

    How was your experience representing the Indian delegation at the G-8/G-20 Youth Summit?

    I represented the Indian delegation as the Environment Minister at the G-8/G-20 Youth Summit, Paris, France from 29th May-4th June 2011. There was a formal selection procedure for the G-8/G-20 Youth Summit which entailed filling an online form, shortlisting and final interview.

    Each ministry had a different agenda. The Environment Ministry Agenda included ‘Governing and financing global environmental protection, integrating environmental issues in our global rules’ and ‘Adapting the use of resources with social and economic issues’ as broad themes. The conference was a simulation of the real G-8/G-20 Summit and to our delight the final communique which emerged was sent to the world leaders attending the G-8/G-20 Summit. The conference was a great insight into the working of international negotiations.

     

    What was your motivation behind pursuing BCL?

    I was quite keen from the very beginning of the law school that I would want to go for higher studies if given an opportunity. I had a mixed bag of reasons motivating me for the same. Before settling into practice, I did aspire to see one of the very best law schools around the world from close quarters. Such an opportunity, I thought and rightly so as confirmed later, has great experiential value. Learning the legal subjects from the world authorities on them and an opportunity to discuss the legal concepts with them pushes one’s intellectual boundaries. Besides, being part of a culturally diverse society, brings important lessons lasting a lifetime.

    All these reasons culminated in my decision to pursue LL.M. I had applied only to five law colleges and got accepted through three of them. The offer from Oxford was the most attractive one on all counts. Besides it was a place where I felt I would fit it. So the choice was not difficult at all and I don’t regret it one bit looking back.

     

    How did you choose Oxford over the others?

    I think it is a personal decision based on several factors including the availability of the courses one intends to pursue, the list of professors that one hopes to interact with, the rank and prestige of the university, the place and the city that the university is in, career options etc. I wanted a quintessential ‘university’ experience. I didn’t have many people guiding me but from what I knew of Oxford, it seemed like a place away from the city buzz, a world in itself which could give me time for study and reflection in quietude.

    Besides, Oxford is known for its focus on strengthening the theoretical base and on a ‘go-deep’ versus the ‘go-wide’ approach. So, even though I could read only four subjects as part of the BCL, they came with tremendous work load and I did feel the advantage of specialising in those subjects without narrowing down my options too much.

     

    What are the scholarships Oxford provides for students from India?

    There aren’t any specific scholarships at Oxford for law students from India except for the Mrs. Ambriti Salve Scholarship at Exeter College. The major scholarships to look out for are the Rhodes, the Commonwealth scholarship, Inlaks and Felix.

     

    What were the objectives of different societies you worked with at Oxford?

    To begin with the number of options one has as a student at Oxford to engage in student run societies is mindboggling. Oxford has a student run society for every activity under the sun including social service, adventure, sports, cultural, theatre – you name it. In the first week at Oxford itself, one can find all about them at the Student Fair and register for them. Even though they are student run, they are managed extremely professionally.

    I participated in the student societies to engage with the issues they were working on and to develop an understanding of their approach. Oxford is very well connected to the leading people working in different segments and therefore had a huge advantage as working with these societies meant that one could meet and talk with people who were at the helm of affairs in the chosen field. The number of events of interest on any given day and the diversity is hard to match with any Indian institute.

     

    What challenges did you face as editor of the Oxford University Commonwealth Law Journal?

    Indian law schools do not pay any separate attention on developing editing skills unless one chooses to participate in the running of a magazine or a journal. So, I joined Oxford University Commonwealth Law Journal to hone my editing skills. It was great learning and the attention to the detail is a useful skill I picked up while at work.

     

    Did you undergo a rigorous academic schedule?

    The academic schedule was beyond comparison from the undergraduate years. Even though most subjects had only a two hour class in a week, there were week-long readings which one was expected to read before the class. One of my four subjects was Juriprudence and Political Theory which had three different seminars in a week and thereby almost thrice the workload in comparison to the other subjects.

    The basic difference from the undergraduate classes was that the objective behind the classes was to clarify one’s doubts as regards the conceptual issues rather than seeing the classroom as a place to learn the basics. Therefore, every student was expected to have covered the basics through readings before attending the classes and participate in discussions.

     

    What is the process of application for the Roy Goode Scholarship?

    (Avani pursued an M.Phil in Law at University of Oxford as a Roy Goode Scholar.)

    The application procedure for M.Phil was standard and required filling a form along with statement of purpose and references. BCL students had the option to submit previous references. The most crucial element of the M.Phil application procedure was the M.Phil proposal. It was on this that the application decision was primarily based. For the scholarship too, there was a standard procedure, the details of which are available on the Law Faculty of Oxford’s website. Along with the Roy Goode scholarship, I also received Graduate Assistance Fund Award. For more details visit law.ox.ac.uk.

     

    What was your topic of research for M.Phil?

    My topic of research for M.Phil was the need for a World Environment Organisation (WEO) and embedding the WEO debate in International Environmental Law. I am interested in the interface between International Governance and International Law and an institutional proposal such as the WEO works at this interface. Besides I was interested in a topic which has practical significance and the WEO along with other governance proposals are being actively considered by the international community to reform International Environmental Governance.

     

    What was your experience assisting Professor Timothy Garton Ash?

    (Avani assisted Prof. Ash, a world renowned academic, on the ‘Free Speech Project.’)

    The Free Speech Debate Project intends to further the cause of freedom of speech and expression by bringing together issues of free speech around the world on one portal. The multi-linguality of the portal is a unique feature as it hopes to get information and opinions on free speech issues accessible to one and all. I was assisting in the capacity of a blogger and a translator.

     

    What were the objectives of the society ‘Oxford Lawyers Without Borders’?

    (Avani was President of the society as well.)

    Oxford Lawyers Without Borders (OxLWOB) is a part of its parent organisation Lawyers Without Borders (LWOB) and works on promoting human rights issues across borders. When I first joined OxLWOB, as the panel leader of West Papua panel, we were focussing on building a legal case for the self-determination of West Papua and presented it before the Annual meeting of the Parliamentarians for West Papua.

    In the second year, as the President my task was to co-ordinate the different panels of OxLWOB and work towards building the society as a platform for students at Oxford to contribute to social causes. It was primarily due to my work for OxLWOB that I was given an ‘Honourable mention’ as part of the Vice Chancellor’s Civic Award scheme, 2013 and was the first law student to be recognised so.

     

    How was your experience as a foreign exchange student?

    (Avani traveled to Germany as part of an academic exchange programme with Max Planck Institute.)

    Max Planck Institute for Comparative and Private International Law, Hamburg has one of the finest collections on international law in general and private international law in particular. Also it hosts some of the finest academics working in this area. So the opportunity came with several perks including working on papers, meeting professors and was also my first trip to Germany, which I thoroughly liked.

     

    How was your experience interning at UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.

    Honestly everything about the internship with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) was different from the other internships I pursued. The quality of legal research that I was given, the international culture of  the institute, the work atmosphere, the friendships I made, and above all my supervisor – Cecil Aptel, who was the senior legal officer at OHCHR, was the best boss that one could hope for. Most importantly, it was an internship where I could see my work having a lot of practical significance and being used directly for the human rights issues around the world.

     

    Tell us about practising at District Court, Harda?

    As I mentioned earlier, I quit taking the D.Phil offer because I heard the call of duty. I intend to start my own law firm with the aim that for every matter we do for profit, we will do another matter for non-profit. A lot of young people I know enter law school because they want to make a difference. But then when they are about to finish law school, they find themselves at cross-roads. If they are serious about contributing to the society, they have limited options of litigating which practically means no money at least for the initial few years, or joining a Human Rights organisation which implies one cannot practice as a lawyer any longer or joining an NGO, whereby one is branded an activist more than a lawyer. So, I ask – why can’t one do corporate law and still contribute to the pro-bono cases one intends to work on? Since greed has no limit and every extra penny in the law firm can be used to further the business prospects, there is indeed a need for a law firm/organisation which as a matter of principle contributes towards pro-bono and does not restrict its pro-bono activities to a few cases to pay lip service to it.

    Furthermore, being interested in a variety of things such as policy making, litigating and activism, I couldn’t find a law firm/organisation that lets me explore all of these dimensions, so I have decided to create one. I don’t want to wait till I am 40 or 50 to start on my own. I want to commit my own mistakes and learn my own lessons and in the process call for individuals who share my feelings and intend to co-create such an organisation. I am calling for applications soon. The idea is to work out the team in Harda, MP, India (my hometown) for few months and start the first office in Jabalpur before the end of this year. Starting from Harda gives us an opportunity to start from the bottom. It’s an experiment but isn’t life itself one?

     

    Lastly, what would be your parting message for our readers?

    Whatever you do, be true to your own soul! The rest will follow. And remember as someone once said: “Whatever you think you can do or dream you can, begin it for boldness has genius, magic and power in it!” So more power to you, dear reader!

     

  • Sunil Agarwal, Senior Tax Partner, AZB, on tax litigation, and work as Income Tax Commissioner

    Mr. Sunil Agrawal graduated in law from the University of Ahmedabad. Prior to that, he had also successfully completed his Bachelor’s in Science and MBBS. He has worked with the Indian Revenue Services for over twenty years as Additional Commissioner of Income Tax. He is currently Senior Taxation Partner at AZB & Partners.

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • Working with the Government of India
    • Work at the Income Tax Simplification Committee
    • Retiring as an Additional Commissioner of Income Tax and joining AZB as a partner

    When and why did you decide to study law?

    It was in 1995–while working as an Investigating Officer in the Indian Revenue Service, my boss all of a sudden directed me to argue the case which I had myself decided as an investigating officer before the Income Tax Appellate Tribunal (ITAT) for and on behalf of the Income Tax Department. I had no prior experience of arguing a case. The hearing of this case continued for about a week. Opposite to me was a senior advocate Mr. Dinesh Vyas, reputed to be the best tax counsel in India at that point of time. I succeeded. After the judgment, he encouraged me to take up the role of an arguing counsel, rather than continuing in the government service. At that point of time, I decided to complete my law degree.

     

    What are the competitive exams you have taken?

    I have taken the following competitive exams:

    Combined Pre-Medical Test (CPMT) in Uttar Pradesh – scored 5th rank in Uttar Pradesh and 2nd in Agra (my home-town). Although I ranked 4th in my university, after completing my MBBS, I did not pursue medicine as a career, I thought that I could better serve the nation while being in public services.

    Bank Probationary Officers Exam – I worked in Punjab National Bank as a Branch Manager (while still a probationer). It was a very satisfying experience of having the good fortune of understanding the working of and managing a branch of a leading public sector bank. It was even more satisfying because this was where I substantially improved loan recovery rates for priority sector loans, in less than one year.

    UPSC Exam (civil services) – UPSC civil services exam is known to be the toughest competitive examination in the world (so recognized by the Guinness Book of Records).

    The scope of studies is extremely wide – it goes without saying that one has to study in a meaningful and sincere manner for at least thirteen to fourteen hours a day at least for a year, if not more, to stand a chance of success in the exam.
    sunil-a1

    Has your study of medicine and your experience as a banker helped you as a lawyer?

    Emphatically yes. Any science-related subject, medicine being no exception, forces a student to be analytical and logical. These qualities, if inculcated can help an individual in any vocation or profession he or she might undertake. In fact, I have used this knowledge in my public service career and in professional career, wherever I found it to be necessary. This knowledge has been very helpful.

     

    In what capacities have you worked with the government?

    I have worked in the following areas of Income Tax Department:

    • Investigation
    • Corporate Assessments
    • International Taxation
    • Arguing counsel before the Income Tax Appellate Tribunal (ITAT) and
    • Authority of Advanced Rulings (AAR).

     

    How has this experience contributed to your present stint in a law firm?

    Working with the Income Tax Department has provided me the width and depth on the subject which I cherish. It is very difficult to acquire comparable exposure while working in the private sector alone.

     

    How was your experience working with the Income Tax Simplification Committee?

    It was an extremely rewarding experience. I was one of the members of this Select Committee. The mandate to this committee was to simplify the Income Tax Act, 1961, rather than to modify it.

    When I was a Joint Commissioner of Income Tax in charge of corporate assessments, I had found some lacunae in the Law which were being exploited by the companies, at the time making assessments of large corporate groups. With the objective of plugging these loopholes, I had proposed amendments to the provisions of the Income Tax Act and given the draft of the proposed amendments with case studies to demonstrate how the loopholes were being exploited. It has been fortunate that such amendment proposals were approved by Ministry of Finance/ Ministry of Law, Govt. of India. I am happy to share that the proposed amendments became a part of Income Tax Act, 1961 which are still in force.

    The suggested amendments to certain provisions of the Income Tax Act which were prone to blatant misuse and perhaps my prior experience in writing articles in professional tax journals, such as Income Tax Reports (ITR), Taxmann, experience of having argued against almost all leading tax advocates, etc. probably contributed towards my appointment.

     

    How was the experience of working with an industry body such as CII?

    Working with an industry body on tax issues of common interest is a very rewarding experience, since we were trying to arrive at workable solutions to the problems of several relevant stakeholders.

     

    Can you share any memorable or interesting experiences in your stint as a senior government counsel at ITAT?

    On a lighter vein, I was probably the first government counsel arguing in the ITAT who used a laptop to access and update a self maintained database of cases and precedents.

    At that time it was perceived as a threat by some of the most reputed opposing counsels! I had prepared on my own a section-wise database using major authorities from Supreme Court and High Courts and ITAT which I used to refer while citing support for a proposition I was arguing. This was done out of necessity and innovation. As government counsel, I did not have the necessary infrastructure to provide four copies of every judgment which was cited before the bench.

     

    Which part of your experience with the government has turned out to be most relevant in your present stint as a law firm partner?

    Looking down the memory lane, it would not be possible to pinpoint any particular aspect of my experience with the government which can be singled out as most relevant. In fact, it is the overall cumulative experience of having served the government in various capacities, whether as an investigating officer, assessing officer or a departmental representative before the ITAT or AAR which has given me the exposure that one cannot gain otherwise.

     

    Can you explain how life as a civil servant or as a government counsel compares with life at a law firm?

    If somebody is sincere, diligent, competent and honest to the job on hand I do not see any difference between my role, whether in government or as a law firm partner today.

     

    Can you tell us about your time at AZB?

    I am fortunate that I continue to handle variety of matters which I was used to handling in the government even after switching over to the law firm.

    Working as a law firm partner, I have had more opportunities to acquire experience on the other side of the table, which I cherish.

     

    According to you role of a senior counsel and a law firm partner in a complex litigation?

    A law firm partner typically has the advantage of knowing the facts of his client’s case extremely well. On top of it, if he or she has additional litigation experience, the quality of the briefing to the senior counsel goes several notches up. This, in a sense, acts as a catalyst for the senior counsel so that the senior counsel is able to prepare himself better. The result is that the senior counsel does better in the court and accordingly the prospects of the client obtaining a better outcome in the litigation significantly improve.

     

    Why did you decide to migrate to a law firm after government service?

    Government of India recruits the best brains in the country through the world’s toughest competitive examination, but it is an irony of fate that the government is not able to retain some of the talent it has already recruited. I think the reasons are too well-known to be spelt out in detail here. I was no exception to this irony.

     

    Is joining civil services a promising career option?

    I would say here we are dealing with the issue of identity crisis. It is better if the youth is able to identify at quite an early stage of career what are their natural inclinations and propensities. Working through those natural gifts is the best way of realizing or unlocking one’s potential. So long as job or career switchover is in furtherance of this objective, perhaps no question should arise on the motive behind the switchover. I would not like to comment on the situation wherein the job switchover is inconsistent with this philosophy.

     

  • Diwakar Kishore, Advocate, Patna High Court, on his engagement with IDIA, litigation, and working at Luthra

    Diwakar Kishore, Advocate, Patna High Court, on his engagement with IDIA, litigation, and working at Luthra

    diwakar-k4Diwakar Kishore is a graduate from NLSIU, batch of 2012. After working at Luthra for about a year, he quit it to become an independent practitioner at the Patna High Court. Presently he practices litigation at Patna High Court and also takes out time as a director of IDIA. 

    In this interview we talk to him about:

     

    Tell us a bit about life before college.

    I finished my schooling in Patna, Nainital and Kota. I went to a boarding school at an early age and it helped me a lot as an individual and gave me many wonderful friends.

    My father is a lawyer, and I grew up in a house full of AIR-SCC volumes. My sister also took up law after high school and had married a lawyer. So yes, law was a familiar field.

     

    What motivated you to pursue law?

    As I said, my father is a lawyer, so it was not a field that was unfamiliar to me. After spending a few months preparing for IIT and truly realizing how much I hated chemistry, I did a bit of soul searching and drifted towards law (not NLS). I was (just) fortunate to make it to NLS.

     

    What do you have to say about mooting at law school and legal writing for journals?

    Mooting is generally an activity that one lets go of on graduating from law school, but this does not mean its utility doesn’t carry over into the real world. In addition to providing a rigorous training that examinations or mere academia cannot offer, mooting and activities like writing for academic journals provide you with experience and skills that are invaluable in legal practice, such as clarity of thought, time management, clear argumentation and the ability to work under immense pressure. These are skills that would never be redundant to lawyers, in law school and out. While the actual law may be ever changing, these are skills that will always be useful.

     

    What do you feel about the perception that students of certain ‘elite’ NLU’s have a much easier time in kickstarting their career as compared to law students from other colleges?

    Certainly it would seem that some firms have a slight bias towards students from top NLUs. However, the beautiful thing about a field as diverse as law is that there are umpteen opportunities and options available to young graduates, from litigation to corporate law to social work to advocacy, teaching and academia and much more. Law as a field is growing every day, and its effect is seen in so many spheres that there are always meaningful ways and opportunities to work and engage with the law.

     

    Tell us about the trimester system at NLS.

    NLS has the unique trimester system followed by very few colleges in India. Rather than having two semesters every year, we have three trimesters a year. I think it is a very effective model. We did four courses in a span of three-four months. Now, even though the time-span seems short, the well structured organised course at NLS helped us cope with the trimester system threw at us.

    I am yet to meet a student (from any discipline) who tells me that that the academic system and faculty at his/her college is impeccable. As far as the question of the freedom that the trimester system offers to law students goes, I think the recent success of NLS students at national and international competitions is testimonial to the fact that you can do enough and more to develop yourself in any system, if you really put your mind to it.

     

    Which internships did you pursue during your graduation?

    I pursued a variety of internships at law school. I interned as a teaching assistant in several colleges, worked under practicing lawyers and did a few corporate internships. I looked at internships as an opportunity to test and sample various fields of law, to see if we were suitable for each other. College is one of the last places where one has the opportunity to just try various things; I looked at internships as one such opportunity, which is why I tried to take up as many different internships as possible.

     

    Were these internships all planned or just happened on the go?

    Some were planned, others came along the way. My training at law school proved to be useful, but I tried to regard internships as opportunities to learn more, as opposed to exhibiting what I do know. There are certain tasks unique to working life that college cannot hope to prepare one for, and good internships bridge this gap perfectly.

     

    Tell us about working at Luthra & Luthra.

    I was offered a job at Luthra through campus placements while I was in my fourth year of college. It was surprising for me and for a few others as I had never interned at a top law firm neither did I have the grades to be called the crème de la crème  of my batch. I think my teaching experience along with the practical knowledge that I had acquired during my internships came to my rescue.

    Corporate lawyers are required to do a variety of things during the course of the day. Documentation, research, negotiations, coordinating with clients, counsel of the opposite side and government agency; one might be required to do any or all of these things in a single day (and night) at a law firm. It is slightly difficult to describe a typical day at work at a law firm.

     

    diwakar-k2How did you get involved in IDIA?

    While the work at Luthra was challenging for sure, I was not happy with the extremely limited engagement with real law that such job provided. I left Luthra to be more involved with public law and hence, my obvious destination was litigation. I started practicing in Patna High Court after Luthra. While it’s true that early days in litigation is anything but ‘lucrative’, but I found the work to be more fulfilling. However, after practicing law for a few months, I realised that ‘justice’ in a court room does not necessarily translate into substantive changes at the grassroots level. Coming from one of the poorest states in India and after studying in one of the best colleges of this country, I felt the need to be more closely associated with my community and that is why I joined IDIA. Along with litigation, I am excited to work with the law in a different and useful way that brings more people into rather tightly-knit legal fraternity, and IDIA does just that.

     

    What is it like being an independent legal practitioner at the Patna High Court?

    Compared to a corporate job, in the initial day’s litigation posses very different set of challenges: (i) pay is bad, (ii) clients are rare, (iii) there is a lot of running around and dealing with a variety of people from different strata’s of society, and (iv) there is a lot of uncertainty – you might lose a great case because the judge feels differently. However, few and far between, when you do win a case all by yourself, that moment of joy is priceless.

    I believe that having a personal mentor is invaluable in any profession, not just litigation. It provides unparalleled professional guidance, and there are certain skills, tips and tricks that come only with professional experience. Having a mentor not only familiarizes you with the profession, but is also a way to make your skills, merit and services more well known amongst the others in Court. Having a good mentor often works as an additional affirmation of your skill and ability, both to other lawyers and clients.

     

    diwakar-k1How is the environment at Patna High Court? Do the judges take kindly to the young lawyers? Any experience at the HC you would want to share?

    I found the Patna High Court to be an interesting place. Several judges have been extremely supportive, and actively recognize and encourage young lawyers such as myself. It’s really quite encouraging when a judge notices you or your arguments, and I’ve seen several judges make it a point to drop a word of praise or encouragement to young lawyers such as myself.

    Justice Tripathi, of the Patna High Court, once stopped me during my arguments to ask me which college I studied law from. I was taken aback at his question but when I finally told him that I had studied law from NLS, Bangalore, he smiled and said: “It seemed like it”. It was a very unusual thing to happen in a court room but something that I will cherish for a long time.

    A perception that deters many students from pursuing a career in litigation instead of at law firms is deemed to be the initial grind that has to be undergone for the first few years. From your experience is it really such a rough journey for a new lawyer in the legal profession?

    New litigators certainly do not have it easy, but then again, no new job is a cakewalk! Every good profession requires a foundation of at least a few years of solid hard work, and litigation is no exception. It’s difficult to weigh a profession in terms of pros and cons and decide which the “best” option is: there really is no such general answer, one must merely find the career option that suits your skills and interests best. I find litigation to be exciting, challenging and fulfilling, which, for me, more than adequately compensates for the “grind”.

     

    Where do you see yourself five years from now?

    Five year plans does not work in most systems. For me, it’s more realistic to function on an annual basis: priorities might alter five years down the line and there is no reason to stick to a plan that I made as a different person altogether.

    While today I feel, I should go back to teaching sometime in the future, this coming year, I would like to continue my practise of the law along with the work I do for IDIA. I enjoy working for disenfranchised and it gives a sense of purpose and meaning to my life right now.

     

    Lastly, what would be your message for all the law students reading this?

    If at all, be in the rat race after tiring out many things and enjoying the company of the rats, the most. It’s rather stupid to want to work somewhere because others around you say that they would like to work there. Do not waste law school by worrying about the life after. Be kind to yourself and have some fun with the law and the friends that your college has to offer. You will miss them once they are gone.

     

  • Murali Neelakantan, Global General Counsel, Cipla, on being a first generation lawyer, mooting, and his diverse experience

    murali-n3Murali Neelakantan is a graduate of NLSIU, batch of 1996. He was one of the first India educated Lawyers to have become a partner in an English law firm. Murali had worked as a Senior Partner at Khaitan before joining Cipla as a Global General Counsel. At Cipla he imparts leadership training and his work entails solving critical problems in times of conflicts. Murali has also been mentioned in the Who’s Who of the World 2004 – 2009.

    Murali had a lot of interest in moots while he was a student at NLSIU and presently he takes time out to judge prestigious moots like Manfred Lachs and Phillip C Jessup.

    In this interview you will get to read what he has to say about:

    • Being the first Jessup team from India and winning the BCI moot
    • Judging Manfred Lachs and the critical elements of a mooter.
    • Being a Global General Counsel of Cipla

     

    We have more advanced career insights to share from him in the next interview.

     

    Tell us a bit about your life before college.

    There were no lawyers in the immediate family and the whole family had very mixed feelings about a career in the law. They obviously knew of the legends like Nani Palkhiwala, Ram Jethmalani, Soli Sorabjee, and K. K. Venugopal but also of the many lawyers loitering around the city civil courts. My father was an engineer and others in the family were civil servants or officers in the armed forces. My parents would very much have liked me to have become an engineer or joined the armed services.

     

    The image of a lawyer back in the ’90s was neither inspiring nor attractive for most students. What motivated you to choose law as a career?

    I had given up on a career in medicine after Class X and studied Physics, Chemistry, Math & Electronics during Class XI and XII. Those were the days when reservations of seats in academic institutions were at their very peak and very few places were available in the leading medical and engineering colleges in the merit category even though I scored reasonably well in the Common Entrance Test. I took keen interest in the Armoured Squadron of the NCC for three years where I was quickly promoted and also won medals. It was really the first opportunity for me to demonstrate leadership and a career in the armed forces was definitely on the radar.

    The National Law School had been in the news since 1988 and I had been impressed by a few of its students at the inter college festivals where I was a regular. There were also a couple of kids from my neighbourhood in Bangalore who had joined NLS before me. There was quite some buzz created by the vision that the government had for the National Law School to be like the IIMs and IITs. A few lawyers that my family knew felt that if one was keen to study law, NLS was a good idea. I was a good public speaker, a logical thinker who liked reading and writing and that, at the time, seemed good enough for a career in the law. So despite opposition from the family, I wrote the entrance exam and got through. It was also very much cheaper to study law than either engineering or medicine.

     

    murali-n2How did you get into mooting?

    (Mr. Murali represented India at Jessup and had also won the BCI Moot Court Competition.)

    The extra-curricular activities that interested me in the first two years were volleyball, cricket and athletics. I discovered very quickly that merely being a sportsman really didn’t get the attention of the girls. My experience of moot courts began in my second year where I helped my classmates win the inter class moot court competition. It was not until the third year at the insistence of one of my closest friends and senior at NLSIU, Dayan Krishnan, now Senior Advocate who was a very keen mooter that I really began participating in the university selection rounds. There were really only about seven moot courts and it was an honour to represent the university at a moot court competition. I came fourth in the first of three selection rounds and that was really the encouragement I need to take this on. At the end of the selection rounds, I got the opportunity to represent India with Sandeep Farias and Sanjoy Ghose at Jessup. That was really my first competitive moot court! The next moot court for me was the Bar Council moot court which was the toughest moot court at the time and was therefore the most prestigious national moot court.

    When we got back from Jessup we realised how far behind the world we were in terms of support for moot courts. Sandeep Farias and I started the first novices moot where those who didn’t want to moot competitively got the opportunity to try it out in camera. This student initiative continues to be popular even though there are many moot court competitions and everyone who wants to participate gets the opportunity very easily.

    I would encourage every law student to moot as often as they can. The most important lesson it teaches is that there are two equally true sides to every story and clients don’t come to lawyers with facts that will guarantee a win. Research is critical to success in a moot court and while it is easier to search these days, one is unlikely to find a decision of the Supreme Court that fits the facts before you perfectly. Formulating the key legal propositions and finding support for them is a skill that is indispensable to every lawyer. Finally, mooting is about persuasion. The days when one wins by confusing the judge are few and far between. One needs to be articulate to be persuasive. This is a skill that is used both inside and outside the court room. In a court room, one has the benefit of a neutral judge. In a negotiation, one is up against another lawyer who is naturally inclined to disagree with you. It is here that the powers of persuasion are tested most. Articulate and persuasive lawyers also put these skills to use while advising a client on a course of action when a client may have an incentive to take an alternative course.

     

    If you see that a person you are considering hiring is good at mooting, does this influence your decision?

    While I look at grades closely and usually have a CGPA cut-off, I also consider all the extra-curricular activities that interested a potential hire. I would definitely interview a student who won moot courts, played team sport, published a paper or had been committed to IDIA (Increasing Diversity by Increasing Access), even if the CGPA was below the cut off for interviews.

     

    As a judge what are the specific skills you look for among the mooters?

    1. Clear legal propositions fully backed up with authority and the ability to anticipate the propositions and authorities of the opponent. Most of this is easily done with thorough research and attention to detail. I expect the participants to know more than the judges.
    2. Clear articulation that persuades me that no one could have argued this case better is perhaps the best description of the winning team. Preparation is the key here so that there are no surprises. If one does find a judge taking an unexpected view, it is an opportunity to demonstrate the breadth of one’s knowledge of the law and facts and quick thinking.
    3. A good sense of humour makes it easier for an advocate to make a connection with the judges; bad timing or poor taste could ruin it though. Quickly evaluating the bench is therefore a key skill. That will tell you what the winning strategy is, how to articulate a proposition so that it rings true to the judges, which authorities are likely to have an impact or when not to press on an issue even if you think you have a good argument.
    4. I have seen students treating moot courts like an elocution contest, reciting to me their memorial. That perhaps works if the judges do not interrupt the speech and I know many judges who will not allow the monologue to last for more than a few minutes. If moot courts are opportunities to prepare for a life in the law, the ability to recite 20 pages of the memorial is not the most valuable skill.

     

    If someone does not go to a top law school, would you say he still has a shot at a great career in law, at the top of the practice?

    Like any other profession, a good education, by which one assumes graduating from a leading academic institution, is merely a good starting point to launch one’s career. It is not necessary for success as a lawyer to have graduated from the leading law schools in the same way as those who did not graduate from one of the top IITs can, and have, succeeded as engineers.

    It is a myth that the top law schools have the monopoly over excellent faculty or infrastructure. With technology that is widely available these days, I believe that the playing field has been levelled and students from every law school have a fair chance at being the best. No judge in a moot court knows which university a student represents. Quality of the memorial and the arguments are the only two qualities that are evaluated. I would find it difficult to ignore a student who did well at Jessup, Manfred Lachs, Stetson or Willem C. Vis. Similarly publication of research papers is another opportunity to demonstrate ones abilities. When I went to London in 1999, almost no one there had heard of the National Law School and it gave me no advantage at all over my Oxbridge educated peers.

     

    What does a general counsel at an MNC like Cipla do?

    The role of a Global General Counsel does not exist in all companies and even in those companies who have it, the roles are not defined uniformly. It all depends on how the company sees the legal function and the organisation structure. Cipla’s legal team is really led by the Chief Legal Officer who manages all the lawyers around the world. I am merely the coach of the legal team and a resource that they can use where there is a critical judgment to be made on conflicting courses of action.

    My main function is to be counsel to the CEO and the management team so that they have someone who can identify, allocate and mitigate enterprise risk in the decisions that are being taken.

    For example, strategic decisions like whether we invest in vertical integration or have long term supplier arrangements.

     

    When you hire lawyers, what kind of skills and profile do you look for?

    Unless one is a sole practitioner, the practice of law is about teamwork. One can learn the law but it is very difficult to change people’s character and personality. The critical quality for me is happiness. I will just not hire a person who I feel is not happy. Energy and enthusiasm are essential for a team to work well. Good grades tell me that the person has been hard working and diligent through law school. Many of the subjects may not be fun but knowing that it has to be done well is a good lesson to be learnt in law school. Most of the work we do will not be interesting every day and I would like to be sure that every person in the team will do it well even if it is not fun. We are presented opportunities to learn everyday and that’s a habit best learnt in law school. Participation in moot courts and team sports, for example, tells me that the person knows what one needs to do to succeed, has seized the opportunities presented to them, works well in a team, is well organised, takes risks but also knows how to prioritise and make good choices.

     

    We have published the rest of the interview here.

  • Iram Huq, Juris Doctor Candidate, Harvard, on interning at the UN, working pro-bono, and working in the US

    Iram Huq is a graduate from WBNUJS, Calcutta, batch of 2011. She was a top ranker as an orator at the Phillip C. Jessup International Law Moot. She is currently a Doctor of Law at Harvard University, where she is also student of the Moot Court Board (2013-2014).

    In this interview, we speak to her about:

    • Getting a JD from Harvard
    • Interning at the United Nations
    • Taking time out for pro-bono human rights cases

    Tell us a bit about your life before college.

    I went to La Martiniere for Girls in Calcutta and was in the school’s debate team. That inspired me to write the law school entrance exams. I had studied science in plus two, and I liked Physics and Maths. Occasionally, I wish I had taken those subjects more seriously. I really enjoyed them conceptually, but I never saw myself as having a career related to either of those subjects.

    I think that my debating and science background helped me to develop a more objective view of the world. I appreciate the subjective aspects of the law, but I can’t help feeling that our legal system tends to reward sophistry and obfuscation instead of real analysis. I do not have lawyers in my family.

     

    What motivated you to choose law as a career?

    I wasn’t really paying attention to what people thought would be an ‘acceptable’ career. My parents were very encouraging, and my teachers also thought that law would be a great choice, given my skill set. It helped that a lot of people graduate from national law schools with excellent, respected jobs.

    I think middle-class Indian parents tend to be very conservative in estimating what careers are satisfactory for their children. However, I have learned that it is very hard to be successful at things that you do not enjoy. I am glad I was never pressured into choosing some other career.

     

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    Did your debating skills help you at Jessup?

    Yes, that is absolutely correct. Debating is a great platform to learn public speaking. Once you understand how to put forward an argument in a clear and convincing way, you can apply that skill to any number of activities, including moot court. My father was also in debate teams of La Martiniere and St. Xavier’s so he was a great help. We had a teacher to coach us in school.

    I will say my ‘mentors’ for moot court were my friends and teammates, Deepak Raju and Rukmini Das, who helped me understand the basics of moots and coached me during the initial auditions for the moot court team. (They were both excellent mooters before I had even considered moot court). I also learned a lot from my experience in Vis Vienna, and could apply those lessons to Jessup. Deepak and I were on a debate team together, and that’s how we started working with each other. It was a pretty organic process, and I would like to believe that all three of us learned a lot from each other. I am not a fan of hierarchical team structures where the senior mooters mentor the junior mooters: the best teams are those consisting of friends.

     

    iram-huq4What are your thoughts on activities like mooting and article writing for journals?

    I think that writing for journals is a wonderful educational activity, if you can do it. Unfortunately, I was always too bored of academic articles to attempt to write them (but that was a personal preference). I liked mooting because, in addition to the academic part, it allowed me to travel and work on a single, practical project. Jessup (and Vis, Vienna) helped me understand how the rest of the world views different aspects of international law, improved my analytical and writing skills, and taught me how to network in professional settings. I definitely think that law students should try either mooting or writing for journals, if not both.

     

    Did you get any institutional support for internships from your college?

    No, I did not. NUJS was remarkably reticent when it comes to helping its students get good jobs or internships. It left everything in the hands of students, which was a good thing since the administration was both languid and incompetent. I did network with some of my seniors in law school, who recommended places where I applied and later interned. On two occasions, I secured internships through personal contacts. Young students should not be ashamed of using their contacts to secure internships. It is a perfectly natural process. If you don’t believe me, watch this TED talk

     

    How well do you think your education at WBNUJS prepared you for real world practice of law?

    Honestly, I think we could do with less compulsory classes and more optional classes in law school. It is absurd to think that someone who only wants to be a securities transactions lawyer should be required to study jurisprudence or intellectual property. We were required to study so many things that were absolutely useless to me when I finally began clerking at the Supreme Court. And yet, I never had the opportunity to learn subjects that would become really important in my job, like lower-court trial procedure.

    Additionally, our subjects were often taught in a completely academic manner, devoid of any instruction on how the law actually worked in practice. Finally, we never had clinics or any other option to learn through practical work. If not for moots and internships, my law school experience would have been completely inadequate.

    I do have to say that I had some excellent professors, and their teachings proved to be very useful for me later on in my work. I think law schools need to work on rewarding quality professors.

     

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    Do you think being from WBNUJS helped your career in any way?

    Yes. Even though I complain a lot about NUJS, I have to say that I was surrounded by very intelligent students and studied under some wonderful professors. Compared to other law schools in India, NUJS has an institutional presence that reinforces an academic spirit and encourages its students to learn the law. I’m very grateful to my peers for challenging me and helping shape the direction of my legal career.

     

    Tell us what factors contributed to your decision to purse Juris Doctor from Harvard?

    I did not want an academic degree, like the LL.M. I was certain that I wanted to work in a law firm in the US. I was applying at a time when the rate of legal hiring was depressed (it still is), and so I concluded that the JD degree was the best option.

     

    iram-huq1What is the application procedure for a JD from Harvard?

    Applicants have to sit for the LSAT, and submit a couple of essays (a personal statement, a diversity statement, and any other essays they want the admissions officer to consider). Needless to say, successful applicants usually have good LSAT scores and compelling essays. Quite a few people have asked me similar questions, and it’s hard for me to explain what constitutes a ‘compelling essay’. But there is a lot of information available on the internet and on LSAC.

    I do not think that anyone can ‘hack’ their way into Harvard. My only suggestion is that applicants should be able to demonstrate a real vision of what they want to do with their Harvard Law degrees once they graduate. I do not think my own essays were particularly good, but I was able to make up for it during the phone interview. That is why I think that some imagination goes a long way.

    The application also requires at least two recommendation letters. Applicants should make sure that they get letters from teachers/employers who really know them and are willing to bat for them. But some institutional weight is also a good thing. I had a letter from Justice Patnaik, for whom I was clerking at the time I made my application. I highly recommend that graduates clerk after law school. It’s a great opportunity to learn how judges and the justice system works. And if you do good work, you’ll have a recommendation letter from a high court or supreme court judge, which is invaluable.

    As for scholarships: I am on a need-based grant at Harvard. Harvard Law does not have academic scholarships, as far as I know. Once you get in, you have to submit a lot of documents about your parents’ income and assets, and they assess a grant package. The whole process is very transparent, and applicants can find all the information on the Harvard Law website.

     

    Do you plan to have a career in the USA?

    Yes. I am currently working as a summer associate at WilmerHale’s New York City office. I hope to secure a job offer by the end of my internship, if everything goes well.

     

    You have been a Chayes Fellow for 2013-14. What does the fellowship entail?

    The Chayes Fellowship is awarded to first-year Harvard Law students who travel internationally for public service work. More information can be found at Chayes international public service fellowship

     

    As part of your Chayes fellowship you were an Intern at United Nations Assistance to the Khmer Rouge Trials. Please share your experience of working at Cambodia.

    Yeah, that’s what I did last summer for ten weeks. It was a great experience—I enjoyed working for the UN in Cambodia. I was working on the prosecution of senior Khmer Rouge leaders. I wrote a blog post about it: Blogs.law.harvard.edu

     

    I gather that most of your internships have been concentrated in and around Human Rights organisations. Is it planned or they just happened?

    I was looking for internships where I would get real experience in research, drafting and filing. It just so happens that large law firms in India rarely let interns shoulder much responsibility. Working for human rights organizations gave me a sense of purpose and also the opportunity to be far more involved in the projects to which I was assigned.

    The firm where I work at present is WilmerHale; it has a large pro bono practice with substantial human rights work. One of my projects is an asylum case. WilmerHale’s pro bono practice allows younger lawyers to shoulder greater responsibility and learn the art of appearing in court. No firm can afford to provide these opportunities in high-stakes litigation, and so human rights work is a great way for younger lawyers to acquire this experience.

     

    How do you manage Human Rights activities alongside the corporate world?

    I am committed to Human Rights work, but I am not a fulltime Human Rights lawyer. My goal has been to work in the corporate world for quite some time now (I have to say that I joined NUJS hoping to be a human rights lawyer). I guess I am privileged, because a few US law firms allow you to do corporate litigation work while still fighting Human Rights cases. I do not think that the two goals have to be mutually exclusive: many US law firms are very profitable even though they allow associates time for different kinds of pro bono work.

     

    Lastly, what would be your message to law students who want to pursue a career in human rights?

    I would say that they should go for it. Personally, I find the Human Rights ‘world’ to be a little oppressive: there is a constant sense of urgency and sadness associated with Human Rights work which interferes with my ability to objectively go about my work. But God knows we need more people dedicated to this field. I respect Human Rights lawyers for their courage and tenacity in the face of all odds. I will acknowledge that money is important, and there is not much of that in the human rights world. But we would be wrong to conflate wealth with success. If there are people who are willing to dedicate themselves to this field, we need to respect their legal skills and talent even as we respect rich and powerful lawyers.