Super Lawyer

Category: Interviews

  • Avani Bansal, Advocate, District Court, Harda, on studying at Oxford and Harvard, and litigation

    Avani Bansal, Advocate, District Court, Harda, on studying at Oxford and Harvard, and litigation

    avani-bansal3Avani Bansal is a graduate from HNLU, Raipur, batch of 2011. Upon graduation she was awarded eight gold medals in different subjects. Thereafter she pursued the BCL programme at Oxford and later the M.Phil programme. She left a fully paid scholarship programme for her D.Phil from Oxford, to return to India, and started practising in her home town, Harda, Madhya Pradesh.

    In this interview we speak to her about:

    • Being an overachieving student
    • Her experience as a judicial clerk under Justice Dalweer Bhandari and in International law
    • Coming back to India to start litigation practice at District Court of Harda, MP

     

    Tell us about your life before law school.

    The story of my life: I was born and raised in a small district – Harda in Madhya Pradesh. I went to a boarding school, the Daly College, Indore for the final two years of schooling. Thereafter I decided to pursue law and topped the entrance of HNLU. After spending five great years at HNLU, both personally and professionally, I decided to try my luck at my dream law school. It worked and I was admitted to the BCL (LL.M) programme.

    A year well spent, passed by quickly than I imagined and I decided to continue for another year at Oxford, this time pursuing M.Phil in International and Environmental Law, and thereby hoping to earn a specialisation, hone my research skills and add another unforgettable year to my life. It went as planned and then came the crucial moment when I found myself at crossroads. I was one step away from realising my childhood dream – to earn the highest degree in my chosen field (a D.Phil). Pursuing a D.Phil (Ph.D) without scholarship was not an option.

    I tried as hard as I could and to my utter delight and surprise, I managed to get both an offer and more importantly a scholarship to cover for my D.Phil expense, even thought the latter came at the very last hour. I signed the offer for the D.Phil and then when the path seemed all clear, I paused to ask – if I really want a D.Phil which comes at the cost of the next three –four years.

    If entering academia is not what I want, was the pursuit of a D.Phil, only to get the golden letters ‘Dr.’ added to my name? After some mindboggling conversations with friends, family and ‘myself’, the little voice inside spoke. I quit the D.Phil, with apologies to those who helped in making the offer a reality and decided to come back to India to pursue my dream. As I write, I am on my desk at Harda, practicing in the Harda Trial Court with eyes full of dreams and passion for building a career in legal practice in India.

     

    How did you decide to study law?

    I was always inspired by the idea of making a difference. Law appealed to me because it spoke directly to social issues. As a lawyer I needed to be aware and sensitive to the society – from the bigger picture to the life of the autowallah. So, I hoped to learn tremendously without any restrictions of a ‘specialised field’. With law I thought I could continue to be interested in everything and thereby make a profession of living intensely. Besides, my passion for speaking did go well with my image of a lawyer. Finally and perhaps most crucially the person who inspires me the most – my father did his law degree, though he never practiced for lack of an English education. He saw a dream and I was thrilled to learn that we share that dream. Hence, pursuing law looked like the destined path, looked at from all counts.

     

    What was it like representing your school at the International Conference of Round Square?

    It was the year 2005 and Daly College, Indore (my school) was chosen to represent itself at the International Conference of Round Square, which is an annual conglomeration of the best schools around the world. If our presentation was to be successful, we were promised a permanent international membership of the Round Square International. A team of three students including me along with our Principal Dr. Sumer Singh and our Round Square Director Madam Badwar went to Melbourne with our hopes high. It was my first international trip, and so I was doubly excited to venture in a new and unfamiliar world. Making a presentation in front of the heads of schools from around the world was a life-changing experience.

    We won the international membership and friendship around the world.  I remember going on a bike tour in Melbourne as part of the adventure day and bruised my knee as the bike tumbled a 360 degree. But I was still all smiles. Sometimes venturing into an unknown world makes us realize the existence of some deeper worlds inside and gives us a greater knowledge of ourselves. It was from Australia that I first saw both India and myself in a new light, challenging the usual way of life that I was accustomed to. The ring of ‘no worries’ in the market place touched me deeply as I was seeing a society which was very warm and hospitable. Melbourne left deep impressions on me, like all firsts do!

     

    How did you strike a balance between academic and non academic pursuits?

    I was always a person with varied interests and I was very clear as I stepped in law school, that my aim was to work towards a well-rounded personality. Therefore I tried my hand at all possible opportunities that HNLU presented me with, both academic and non-academic. The academic pursuits such as mooting, publications, internships, conferences etc. were a natural extension of my will to explore the different aspects of a law school. But taking the five years at law school as an opportunity to work on myself as a person, I continued to participate in the non-academic pursuits as well.

    I was a dancer at school and so performed in different cultural functions at college. Debating, dramatics I could explore only in a limited way. The lack of sports infrastructure at HNLU during my days meant that physical fitness was a neglected area. However, after the first year, mooting really did take over all my other interests and I enjoyed every moot thoroughly as it left me much more confident of myself. My eight semester saw me handling three different moots, with two international moots.  I remember a friend asking me if I wasn’t always into too many things at the same time but perhaps as I explained then, I was always a person who could manage better with more things on my plate. I love to fill my day with different and varied tasks and that alone makes me productive.

     

    Tell us about your experience interning at the Ministry of External Affairs and ISIL.

    My fascination with trying to understand the bigger picture drew me slowly towards developing an interest in public international law. Participating in Stetson, Henry Dunant and Williem C. Vis and Jessup only fuelled the fire. Interning with MEA was inspired by trying to take a closer look at the working of the Ministry. Though that didn’t happen but the internship was a useful one as it exposed me to a rich material on public international law and state diplomacy. The ISIL internship came with multiple advantages.

    I could browse through several books and unheard journals on different subjects related to public international law and work on the upcoming moot simultaneously. Being at Bhagwan Das Road, next to the Indian Law Institute, with chai stall in the vicinity had it all for a perfect one month educational break. The application procedure for both these internships was standard. I wrote to the concerned person and got accepted. Though at ISIL, a reference through a teacher did expedite things.

     

    What was your stint in judicial clerkship like?

    (Avani has interned with the National Judicial Academy and Justice Dalweer Bhandari’s office.)

    My internship decisions were based on a desire to experience the variety of roles that I could take up on graduating. So, I wanted to explore what the different worlds entailed – that of litigation, academia, judiciary, media house, corporate firm etc. National Judicial Academy is a great place and interning there did help me push my intellectual boundaries. Since the place had some of the best academics, learning from their feedback proved very useful in the longer run. Also to see how an organisation such as the NJA works gave me insights into the training of the judiciary and the need for it.

    Its location and the beautiful premises were a very welcome change from the otherwise lack of attention on aesthetics at work-places. As for the judicial clerkship, I had applied through college and was allotted an internship with Justice Dalweer Bhandari amongst other judges on a purely random basis. But it proved to be a great stroke of luck as I learned tremendously at Justice Bhandari’s office. I had the opportunity to brief Justice Bhandari every day during my internship.

    The experience of reading several files in a day and discussing them with a seating judge of the Supreme Court, taught me about a judge’s perspective and way of functioning.  It also made me realise that a judge’s task of ‘finding the truth’ in the light of law is not an easy one and entails great responsibility on his/her part. Most importantly it helped me realise the importance of judiciary in the Indian legal system. His office was a very welcoming place to work and so it turned out to be a really good experience.

     

    How did you apply for your internship under Mr. Fali S. Nariman?

    I applied for an internship with Mr. Fali S. Nariman whilst at Oxford. He asked for a recommendation from the dean of the law faculty, Oxford, receiving which the internship was confirmed for my winter break. It took me a while to soak in the feeling that I was watching Fali from close quarters as I had been in awe of him from early days at law school. The work at his office was not very different from other litigation offices. I worked on the matters that I was given. Perhaps it was an internship that was crucial more from an experiential viewpoint than from a practical one.

     

    What was your time interning at law firms like?

    (Avani interned with Amarchand Mangaldas & AZB & Partners in her penultimate year of law school.)

    My decision to pursue a variety of internships meant that I didn’t have the opportunity to intern at a mid-size firm. So, when I went to these big ones in my fourth year, I was all prepared to do every kind of work. But to my surprise, I got very intellectually stimulating work and didn’t have to complain about just lifting files or printing as some of my colleagues had complained while working at other law firms. I was working with the litigation team at Amarchand and got an opportunity to work on some remarkable matters whilst there. At AZB, I did a variety of work which made me feel very confident about the breadth of practice that I could be looking as future prospects.

     

    Would you say your law school prepared you for the practical work which you had to do at your internship?

    I am not sure any law school can prepare someone for the practical work during internships. But if one’s theoretical foundation is strong and one is adept in basic research skills, with the right set of attitude, it’s not difficult to make the most of one’s internship. Internships, I think are not just an opportunity to showcase your talent but also to develop it further. The traditional notion of pursuing a law firm internship only in the later years at law school is not necessarily correct.

    As long as one is giving one’s best and is willing to learn, all internships can be fruitful.

    The bottom line to remember is that “No one out there teaches you a thing! It is upto you to see what is it that you can learn.” Based on this, it is difficult for me to say that one internship was better than the other for they all helped me in different ways and sharpened different skills. But if I have to be honest, my first internship with RLEK – Rural Litigation Entitlement Kendra (NGO), Dehradun stood out for me. They took us to tour the villages in Uttarakhand and as a first year law student, observing the lives of people in mountainous villages struck more chords with my soul than an internship at any other place did.

    The best experiences are those where we cannot point out what it was about them that made them special. But a group of law students, talking law to the people in villages in their language, understanding their perspectives on life, law and other things, and all this set in inexplicable natural beauty was an experience that I can never forget.

     

    How was your experience representing the Indian delegation at the G-8/G-20 Youth Summit?

    I represented the Indian delegation as the Environment Minister at the G-8/G-20 Youth Summit, Paris, France from 29th May-4th June 2011. There was a formal selection procedure for the G-8/G-20 Youth Summit which entailed filling an online form, shortlisting and final interview.

    Each ministry had a different agenda. The Environment Ministry Agenda included ‘Governing and financing global environmental protection, integrating environmental issues in our global rules’ and ‘Adapting the use of resources with social and economic issues’ as broad themes. The conference was a simulation of the real G-8/G-20 Summit and to our delight the final communique which emerged was sent to the world leaders attending the G-8/G-20 Summit. The conference was a great insight into the working of international negotiations.

     

    What was your motivation behind pursuing BCL?

    I was quite keen from the very beginning of the law school that I would want to go for higher studies if given an opportunity. I had a mixed bag of reasons motivating me for the same. Before settling into practice, I did aspire to see one of the very best law schools around the world from close quarters. Such an opportunity, I thought and rightly so as confirmed later, has great experiential value. Learning the legal subjects from the world authorities on them and an opportunity to discuss the legal concepts with them pushes one’s intellectual boundaries. Besides, being part of a culturally diverse society, brings important lessons lasting a lifetime.

    All these reasons culminated in my decision to pursue LL.M. I had applied only to five law colleges and got accepted through three of them. The offer from Oxford was the most attractive one on all counts. Besides it was a place where I felt I would fit it. So the choice was not difficult at all and I don’t regret it one bit looking back.

     

    How did you choose Oxford over the others?

    I think it is a personal decision based on several factors including the availability of the courses one intends to pursue, the list of professors that one hopes to interact with, the rank and prestige of the university, the place and the city that the university is in, career options etc. I wanted a quintessential ‘university’ experience. I didn’t have many people guiding me but from what I knew of Oxford, it seemed like a place away from the city buzz, a world in itself which could give me time for study and reflection in quietude.

    Besides, Oxford is known for its focus on strengthening the theoretical base and on a ‘go-deep’ versus the ‘go-wide’ approach. So, even though I could read only four subjects as part of the BCL, they came with tremendous work load and I did feel the advantage of specialising in those subjects without narrowing down my options too much.

     

    What are the scholarships Oxford provides for students from India?

    There aren’t any specific scholarships at Oxford for law students from India except for the Mrs. Ambriti Salve Scholarship at Exeter College. The major scholarships to look out for are the Rhodes, the Commonwealth scholarship, Inlaks and Felix.

     

    What were the objectives of different societies you worked with at Oxford?

    To begin with the number of options one has as a student at Oxford to engage in student run societies is mindboggling. Oxford has a student run society for every activity under the sun including social service, adventure, sports, cultural, theatre – you name it. In the first week at Oxford itself, one can find all about them at the Student Fair and register for them. Even though they are student run, they are managed extremely professionally.

    I participated in the student societies to engage with the issues they were working on and to develop an understanding of their approach. Oxford is very well connected to the leading people working in different segments and therefore had a huge advantage as working with these societies meant that one could meet and talk with people who were at the helm of affairs in the chosen field. The number of events of interest on any given day and the diversity is hard to match with any Indian institute.

     

    What challenges did you face as editor of the Oxford University Commonwealth Law Journal?

    Indian law schools do not pay any separate attention on developing editing skills unless one chooses to participate in the running of a magazine or a journal. So, I joined Oxford University Commonwealth Law Journal to hone my editing skills. It was great learning and the attention to the detail is a useful skill I picked up while at work.

     

    Did you undergo a rigorous academic schedule?

    The academic schedule was beyond comparison from the undergraduate years. Even though most subjects had only a two hour class in a week, there were week-long readings which one was expected to read before the class. One of my four subjects was Juriprudence and Political Theory which had three different seminars in a week and thereby almost thrice the workload in comparison to the other subjects.

    The basic difference from the undergraduate classes was that the objective behind the classes was to clarify one’s doubts as regards the conceptual issues rather than seeing the classroom as a place to learn the basics. Therefore, every student was expected to have covered the basics through readings before attending the classes and participate in discussions.

     

    What is the process of application for the Roy Goode Scholarship?

    (Avani pursued an M.Phil in Law at University of Oxford as a Roy Goode Scholar.)

    The application procedure for M.Phil was standard and required filling a form along with statement of purpose and references. BCL students had the option to submit previous references. The most crucial element of the M.Phil application procedure was the M.Phil proposal. It was on this that the application decision was primarily based. For the scholarship too, there was a standard procedure, the details of which are available on the Law Faculty of Oxford’s website. Along with the Roy Goode scholarship, I also received Graduate Assistance Fund Award. For more details visit law.ox.ac.uk.

     

    What was your topic of research for M.Phil?

    My topic of research for M.Phil was the need for a World Environment Organisation (WEO) and embedding the WEO debate in International Environmental Law. I am interested in the interface between International Governance and International Law and an institutional proposal such as the WEO works at this interface. Besides I was interested in a topic which has practical significance and the WEO along with other governance proposals are being actively considered by the international community to reform International Environmental Governance.

     

    What was your experience assisting Professor Timothy Garton Ash?

    (Avani assisted Prof. Ash, a world renowned academic, on the ‘Free Speech Project.’)

    The Free Speech Debate Project intends to further the cause of freedom of speech and expression by bringing together issues of free speech around the world on one portal. The multi-linguality of the portal is a unique feature as it hopes to get information and opinions on free speech issues accessible to one and all. I was assisting in the capacity of a blogger and a translator.

     

    What were the objectives of the society ‘Oxford Lawyers Without Borders’?

    (Avani was President of the society as well.)

    Oxford Lawyers Without Borders (OxLWOB) is a part of its parent organisation Lawyers Without Borders (LWOB) and works on promoting human rights issues across borders. When I first joined OxLWOB, as the panel leader of West Papua panel, we were focussing on building a legal case for the self-determination of West Papua and presented it before the Annual meeting of the Parliamentarians for West Papua.

    In the second year, as the President my task was to co-ordinate the different panels of OxLWOB and work towards building the society as a platform for students at Oxford to contribute to social causes. It was primarily due to my work for OxLWOB that I was given an ‘Honourable mention’ as part of the Vice Chancellor’s Civic Award scheme, 2013 and was the first law student to be recognised so.

     

    How was your experience as a foreign exchange student?

    (Avani traveled to Germany as part of an academic exchange programme with Max Planck Institute.)

    Max Planck Institute for Comparative and Private International Law, Hamburg has one of the finest collections on international law in general and private international law in particular. Also it hosts some of the finest academics working in this area. So the opportunity came with several perks including working on papers, meeting professors and was also my first trip to Germany, which I thoroughly liked.

     

    How was your experience interning at UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.

    Honestly everything about the internship with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) was different from the other internships I pursued. The quality of legal research that I was given, the international culture of  the institute, the work atmosphere, the friendships I made, and above all my supervisor – Cecil Aptel, who was the senior legal officer at OHCHR, was the best boss that one could hope for. Most importantly, it was an internship where I could see my work having a lot of practical significance and being used directly for the human rights issues around the world.

     

    Tell us about practising at District Court, Harda?

    As I mentioned earlier, I quit taking the D.Phil offer because I heard the call of duty. I intend to start my own law firm with the aim that for every matter we do for profit, we will do another matter for non-profit. A lot of young people I know enter law school because they want to make a difference. But then when they are about to finish law school, they find themselves at cross-roads. If they are serious about contributing to the society, they have limited options of litigating which practically means no money at least for the initial few years, or joining a Human Rights organisation which implies one cannot practice as a lawyer any longer or joining an NGO, whereby one is branded an activist more than a lawyer. So, I ask – why can’t one do corporate law and still contribute to the pro-bono cases one intends to work on? Since greed has no limit and every extra penny in the law firm can be used to further the business prospects, there is indeed a need for a law firm/organisation which as a matter of principle contributes towards pro-bono and does not restrict its pro-bono activities to a few cases to pay lip service to it.

    Furthermore, being interested in a variety of things such as policy making, litigating and activism, I couldn’t find a law firm/organisation that lets me explore all of these dimensions, so I have decided to create one. I don’t want to wait till I am 40 or 50 to start on my own. I want to commit my own mistakes and learn my own lessons and in the process call for individuals who share my feelings and intend to co-create such an organisation. I am calling for applications soon. The idea is to work out the team in Harda, MP, India (my hometown) for few months and start the first office in Jabalpur before the end of this year. Starting from Harda gives us an opportunity to start from the bottom. It’s an experiment but isn’t life itself one?

     

    Lastly, what would be your parting message for our readers?

    Whatever you do, be true to your own soul! The rest will follow. And remember as someone once said: “Whatever you think you can do or dream you can, begin it for boldness has genius, magic and power in it!” So more power to you, dear reader!

     

  • Sunil Agarwal, Senior Tax Partner, AZB, on tax litigation, and work as Income Tax Commissioner

    Sunil Agarwal, Senior Tax Partner, AZB, on tax litigation, and work as Income Tax Commissioner

    Mr. Sunil Agrawal graduated in law from the University of Ahmedabad. Prior to that, he had also successfully completed his Bachelor’s in Science and MBBS. He has worked with the Indian Revenue Services for over twenty years as Additional Commissioner of Income Tax. He is currently Senior Taxation Partner at AZB & Partners.

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • Working with the Government of India
    • Work at the Income Tax Simplification Committee
    • Retiring as an Additional Commissioner of Income Tax and joining AZB as a partner

    When and why did you decide to study law?

    It was in 1995–while working as an Investigating Officer in the Indian Revenue Service, my boss all of a sudden directed me to argue the case which I had myself decided as an investigating officer before the Income Tax Appellate Tribunal (ITAT) for and on behalf of the Income Tax Department. I had no prior experience of arguing a case. The hearing of this case continued for about a week. Opposite to me was a senior advocate Mr. Dinesh Vyas, reputed to be the best tax counsel in India at that point of time. I succeeded. After the judgment, he encouraged me to take up the role of an arguing counsel, rather than continuing in the government service. At that point of time, I decided to complete my law degree.

     

    What are the competitive exams you have taken?

    I have taken the following competitive exams:

    Combined Pre-Medical Test (CPMT) in Uttar Pradesh – scored 5th rank in Uttar Pradesh and 2nd in Agra (my home-town). Although I ranked 4th in my university, after completing my MBBS, I did not pursue medicine as a career, I thought that I could better serve the nation while being in public services.

    Bank Probationary Officers Exam – I worked in Punjab National Bank as a Branch Manager (while still a probationer). It was a very satisfying experience of having the good fortune of understanding the working of and managing a branch of a leading public sector bank. It was even more satisfying because this was where I substantially improved loan recovery rates for priority sector loans, in less than one year.

    UPSC Exam (civil services) – UPSC civil services exam is known to be the toughest competitive examination in the world (so recognized by the Guinness Book of Records).

    The scope of studies is extremely wide – it goes without saying that one has to study in a meaningful and sincere manner for at least thirteen to fourteen hours a day at least for a year, if not more, to stand a chance of success in the exam.
    sunil-a1

    Has your study of medicine and your experience as a banker helped you as a lawyer?

    Emphatically yes. Any science-related subject, medicine being no exception, forces a student to be analytical and logical. These qualities, if inculcated can help an individual in any vocation or profession he or she might undertake. In fact, I have used this knowledge in my public service career and in professional career, wherever I found it to be necessary. This knowledge has been very helpful.

     

    In what capacities have you worked with the government?

    I have worked in the following areas of Income Tax Department:

    • Investigation
    • Corporate Assessments
    • International Taxation
    • Arguing counsel before the Income Tax Appellate Tribunal (ITAT) and
    • Authority of Advanced Rulings (AAR).

     

    How has this experience contributed to your present stint in a law firm?

    Working with the Income Tax Department has provided me the width and depth on the subject which I cherish. It is very difficult to acquire comparable exposure while working in the private sector alone.

     

    How was your experience working with the Income Tax Simplification Committee?

    It was an extremely rewarding experience. I was one of the members of this Select Committee. The mandate to this committee was to simplify the Income Tax Act, 1961, rather than to modify it.

    When I was a Joint Commissioner of Income Tax in charge of corporate assessments, I had found some lacunae in the Law which were being exploited by the companies, at the time making assessments of large corporate groups. With the objective of plugging these loopholes, I had proposed amendments to the provisions of the Income Tax Act and given the draft of the proposed amendments with case studies to demonstrate how the loopholes were being exploited. It has been fortunate that such amendment proposals were approved by Ministry of Finance/ Ministry of Law, Govt. of India. I am happy to share that the proposed amendments became a part of Income Tax Act, 1961 which are still in force.

    The suggested amendments to certain provisions of the Income Tax Act which were prone to blatant misuse and perhaps my prior experience in writing articles in professional tax journals, such as Income Tax Reports (ITR), Taxmann, experience of having argued against almost all leading tax advocates, etc. probably contributed towards my appointment.

     

    How was the experience of working with an industry body such as CII?

    Working with an industry body on tax issues of common interest is a very rewarding experience, since we were trying to arrive at workable solutions to the problems of several relevant stakeholders.

     

    Can you share any memorable or interesting experiences in your stint as a senior government counsel at ITAT?

    On a lighter vein, I was probably the first government counsel arguing in the ITAT who used a laptop to access and update a self maintained database of cases and precedents.

    At that time it was perceived as a threat by some of the most reputed opposing counsels! I had prepared on my own a section-wise database using major authorities from Supreme Court and High Courts and ITAT which I used to refer while citing support for a proposition I was arguing. This was done out of necessity and innovation. As government counsel, I did not have the necessary infrastructure to provide four copies of every judgment which was cited before the bench.

     

    Which part of your experience with the government has turned out to be most relevant in your present stint as a law firm partner?

    Looking down the memory lane, it would not be possible to pinpoint any particular aspect of my experience with the government which can be singled out as most relevant. In fact, it is the overall cumulative experience of having served the government in various capacities, whether as an investigating officer, assessing officer or a departmental representative before the ITAT or AAR which has given me the exposure that one cannot gain otherwise.

     

    Can you explain how life as a civil servant or as a government counsel compares with life at a law firm?

    If somebody is sincere, diligent, competent and honest to the job on hand I do not see any difference between my role, whether in government or as a law firm partner today.

     

    Can you tell us about your time at AZB?

    I am fortunate that I continue to handle variety of matters which I was used to handling in the government even after switching over to the law firm.

    Working as a law firm partner, I have had more opportunities to acquire experience on the other side of the table, which I cherish.

     

    According to you role of a senior counsel and a law firm partner in a complex litigation?

    A law firm partner typically has the advantage of knowing the facts of his client’s case extremely well. On top of it, if he or she has additional litigation experience, the quality of the briefing to the senior counsel goes several notches up. This, in a sense, acts as a catalyst for the senior counsel so that the senior counsel is able to prepare himself better. The result is that the senior counsel does better in the court and accordingly the prospects of the client obtaining a better outcome in the litigation significantly improve.

     

    Why did you decide to migrate to a law firm after government service?

    Government of India recruits the best brains in the country through the world’s toughest competitive examination, but it is an irony of fate that the government is not able to retain some of the talent it has already recruited. I think the reasons are too well-known to be spelt out in detail here. I was no exception to this irony.

     

    Is joining civil services a promising career option?

    I would say here we are dealing with the issue of identity crisis. It is better if the youth is able to identify at quite an early stage of career what are their natural inclinations and propensities. Working through those natural gifts is the best way of realizing or unlocking one’s potential. So long as job or career switchover is in furtherance of this objective, perhaps no question should arise on the motive behind the switchover. I would not like to comment on the situation wherein the job switchover is inconsistent with this philosophy.

     

  • Diwakar Kishore, Advocate, Patna High Court, on his engagement with IDIA, litigation, and working at Luthra

    Diwakar Kishore, Advocate, Patna High Court, on his engagement with IDIA, litigation, and working at Luthra

    diwakar-k4Diwakar Kishore is a graduate from NLSIU, batch of 2012. After working at Luthra for about a year, he quit it to become an independent practitioner at the Patna High Court. Presently he practices litigation at Patna High Court and also takes out time as a director of IDIA. 

    In this interview we talk to him about:

     

    Tell us a bit about life before college.

    I finished my schooling in Patna, Nainital and Kota. I went to a boarding school at an early age and it helped me a lot as an individual and gave me many wonderful friends.

    My father is a lawyer, and I grew up in a house full of AIR-SCC volumes. My sister also took up law after high school and had married a lawyer. So yes, law was a familiar field.

     

    What motivated you to pursue law?

    As I said, my father is a lawyer, so it was not a field that was unfamiliar to me. After spending a few months preparing for IIT and truly realizing how much I hated chemistry, I did a bit of soul searching and drifted towards law (not NLS). I was (just) fortunate to make it to NLS.

     

    What do you have to say about mooting at law school and legal writing for journals?

    Mooting is generally an activity that one lets go of on graduating from law school, but this does not mean its utility doesn’t carry over into the real world. In addition to providing a rigorous training that examinations or mere academia cannot offer, mooting and activities like writing for academic journals provide you with experience and skills that are invaluable in legal practice, such as clarity of thought, time management, clear argumentation and the ability to work under immense pressure. These are skills that would never be redundant to lawyers, in law school and out. While the actual law may be ever changing, these are skills that will always be useful.

     

    What do you feel about the perception that students of certain ‘elite’ NLU’s have a much easier time in kickstarting their career as compared to law students from other colleges?

    Certainly it would seem that some firms have a slight bias towards students from top NLUs. However, the beautiful thing about a field as diverse as law is that there are umpteen opportunities and options available to young graduates, from litigation to corporate law to social work to advocacy, teaching and academia and much more. Law as a field is growing every day, and its effect is seen in so many spheres that there are always meaningful ways and opportunities to work and engage with the law.

     

    Tell us about the trimester system at NLS.

    NLS has the unique trimester system followed by very few colleges in India. Rather than having two semesters every year, we have three trimesters a year. I think it is a very effective model. We did four courses in a span of three-four months. Now, even though the time-span seems short, the well structured organised course at NLS helped us cope with the trimester system threw at us.

    I am yet to meet a student (from any discipline) who tells me that that the academic system and faculty at his/her college is impeccable. As far as the question of the freedom that the trimester system offers to law students goes, I think the recent success of NLS students at national and international competitions is testimonial to the fact that you can do enough and more to develop yourself in any system, if you really put your mind to it.

     

    Which internships did you pursue during your graduation?

    I pursued a variety of internships at law school. I interned as a teaching assistant in several colleges, worked under practicing lawyers and did a few corporate internships. I looked at internships as an opportunity to test and sample various fields of law, to see if we were suitable for each other. College is one of the last places where one has the opportunity to just try various things; I looked at internships as one such opportunity, which is why I tried to take up as many different internships as possible.

     

    Were these internships all planned or just happened on the go?

    Some were planned, others came along the way. My training at law school proved to be useful, but I tried to regard internships as opportunities to learn more, as opposed to exhibiting what I do know. There are certain tasks unique to working life that college cannot hope to prepare one for, and good internships bridge this gap perfectly.

     

    Tell us about working at Luthra & Luthra.

    I was offered a job at Luthra through campus placements while I was in my fourth year of college. It was surprising for me and for a few others as I had never interned at a top law firm neither did I have the grades to be called the crème de la crème  of my batch. I think my teaching experience along with the practical knowledge that I had acquired during my internships came to my rescue.

    Corporate lawyers are required to do a variety of things during the course of the day. Documentation, research, negotiations, coordinating with clients, counsel of the opposite side and government agency; one might be required to do any or all of these things in a single day (and night) at a law firm. It is slightly difficult to describe a typical day at work at a law firm.

     

    diwakar-k2How did you get involved in IDIA?

    While the work at Luthra was challenging for sure, I was not happy with the extremely limited engagement with real law that such job provided. I left Luthra to be more involved with public law and hence, my obvious destination was litigation. I started practicing in Patna High Court after Luthra. While it’s true that early days in litigation is anything but ‘lucrative’, but I found the work to be more fulfilling. However, after practicing law for a few months, I realised that ‘justice’ in a court room does not necessarily translate into substantive changes at the grassroots level. Coming from one of the poorest states in India and after studying in one of the best colleges of this country, I felt the need to be more closely associated with my community and that is why I joined IDIA. Along with litigation, I am excited to work with the law in a different and useful way that brings more people into rather tightly-knit legal fraternity, and IDIA does just that.

     

    What is it like being an independent legal practitioner at the Patna High Court?

    Compared to a corporate job, in the initial day’s litigation posses very different set of challenges: (i) pay is bad, (ii) clients are rare, (iii) there is a lot of running around and dealing with a variety of people from different strata’s of society, and (iv) there is a lot of uncertainty – you might lose a great case because the judge feels differently. However, few and far between, when you do win a case all by yourself, that moment of joy is priceless.

    I believe that having a personal mentor is invaluable in any profession, not just litigation. It provides unparalleled professional guidance, and there are certain skills, tips and tricks that come only with professional experience. Having a mentor not only familiarizes you with the profession, but is also a way to make your skills, merit and services more well known amongst the others in Court. Having a good mentor often works as an additional affirmation of your skill and ability, both to other lawyers and clients.

     

    diwakar-k1How is the environment at Patna High Court? Do the judges take kindly to the young lawyers? Any experience at the HC you would want to share?

    I found the Patna High Court to be an interesting place. Several judges have been extremely supportive, and actively recognize and encourage young lawyers such as myself. It’s really quite encouraging when a judge notices you or your arguments, and I’ve seen several judges make it a point to drop a word of praise or encouragement to young lawyers such as myself.

    Justice Tripathi, of the Patna High Court, once stopped me during my arguments to ask me which college I studied law from. I was taken aback at his question but when I finally told him that I had studied law from NLS, Bangalore, he smiled and said: “It seemed like it”. It was a very unusual thing to happen in a court room but something that I will cherish for a long time.

    A perception that deters many students from pursuing a career in litigation instead of at law firms is deemed to be the initial grind that has to be undergone for the first few years. From your experience is it really such a rough journey for a new lawyer in the legal profession?

    New litigators certainly do not have it easy, but then again, no new job is a cakewalk! Every good profession requires a foundation of at least a few years of solid hard work, and litigation is no exception. It’s difficult to weigh a profession in terms of pros and cons and decide which the “best” option is: there really is no such general answer, one must merely find the career option that suits your skills and interests best. I find litigation to be exciting, challenging and fulfilling, which, for me, more than adequately compensates for the “grind”.

     

    Where do you see yourself five years from now?

    Five year plans does not work in most systems. For me, it’s more realistic to function on an annual basis: priorities might alter five years down the line and there is no reason to stick to a plan that I made as a different person altogether.

    While today I feel, I should go back to teaching sometime in the future, this coming year, I would like to continue my practise of the law along with the work I do for IDIA. I enjoy working for disenfranchised and it gives a sense of purpose and meaning to my life right now.

     

    Lastly, what would be your message for all the law students reading this?

    If at all, be in the rat race after tiring out many things and enjoying the company of the rats, the most. It’s rather stupid to want to work somewhere because others around you say that they would like to work there. Do not waste law school by worrying about the life after. Be kind to yourself and have some fun with the law and the friends that your college has to offer. You will miss them once they are gone.

     

  • Murali Neelakantan, Global General Counsel, Cipla, on being a first generation lawyer, mooting, and his diverse experience

    Murali Neelakantan, Global General Counsel, Cipla, on being a first generation lawyer, mooting, and his diverse experience

    murali-n3Murali Neelakantan is a graduate of NLSIU, batch of 1996. He was one of the first India educated Lawyers to have become a partner in an English law firm. Murali had worked as a Senior Partner at Khaitan before joining Cipla as a Global General Counsel. At Cipla he imparts leadership training and his work entails solving critical problems in times of conflicts. Murali has also been mentioned in the Who’s Who of the World 2004 – 2009.

    Murali had a lot of interest in moots while he was a student at NLSIU and presently he takes time out to judge prestigious moots like Manfred Lachs and Phillip C Jessup.

    In this interview you will get to read what he has to say about:

    • Being the first Jessup team from India and winning the BCI moot
    • Judging Manfred Lachs and the critical elements of a mooter.
    • Being a Global General Counsel of Cipla

     

    We have more advanced career insights to share from him in the next interview.

     

    Tell us a bit about your life before college.

    There were no lawyers in the immediate family and the whole family had very mixed feelings about a career in the law. They obviously knew of the legends like Nani Palkhiwala, Ram Jethmalani, Soli Sorabjee, and K. K. Venugopal but also of the many lawyers loitering around the city civil courts. My father was an engineer and others in the family were civil servants or officers in the armed forces. My parents would very much have liked me to have become an engineer or joined the armed services.

     

    The image of a lawyer back in the ’90s was neither inspiring nor attractive for most students. What motivated you to choose law as a career?

    I had given up on a career in medicine after Class X and studied Physics, Chemistry, Math & Electronics during Class XI and XII. Those were the days when reservations of seats in academic institutions were at their very peak and very few places were available in the leading medical and engineering colleges in the merit category even though I scored reasonably well in the Common Entrance Test. I took keen interest in the Armoured Squadron of the NCC for three years where I was quickly promoted and also won medals. It was really the first opportunity for me to demonstrate leadership and a career in the armed forces was definitely on the radar.

    The National Law School had been in the news since 1988 and I had been impressed by a few of its students at the inter college festivals where I was a regular. There were also a couple of kids from my neighbourhood in Bangalore who had joined NLS before me. There was quite some buzz created by the vision that the government had for the National Law School to be like the IIMs and IITs. A few lawyers that my family knew felt that if one was keen to study law, NLS was a good idea. I was a good public speaker, a logical thinker who liked reading and writing and that, at the time, seemed good enough for a career in the law. So despite opposition from the family, I wrote the entrance exam and got through. It was also very much cheaper to study law than either engineering or medicine.

     

    murali-n2How did you get into mooting?

    (Mr. Murali represented India at Jessup and had also won the BCI Moot Court Competition.)

    The extra-curricular activities that interested me in the first two years were volleyball, cricket and athletics. I discovered very quickly that merely being a sportsman really didn’t get the attention of the girls. My experience of moot courts began in my second year where I helped my classmates win the inter class moot court competition. It was not until the third year at the insistence of one of my closest friends and senior at NLSIU, Dayan Krishnan, now Senior Advocate who was a very keen mooter that I really began participating in the university selection rounds. There were really only about seven moot courts and it was an honour to represent the university at a moot court competition. I came fourth in the first of three selection rounds and that was really the encouragement I need to take this on. At the end of the selection rounds, I got the opportunity to represent India with Sandeep Farias and Sanjoy Ghose at Jessup. That was really my first competitive moot court! The next moot court for me was the Bar Council moot court which was the toughest moot court at the time and was therefore the most prestigious national moot court.

    When we got back from Jessup we realised how far behind the world we were in terms of support for moot courts. Sandeep Farias and I started the first novices moot where those who didn’t want to moot competitively got the opportunity to try it out in camera. This student initiative continues to be popular even though there are many moot court competitions and everyone who wants to participate gets the opportunity very easily.

    I would encourage every law student to moot as often as they can. The most important lesson it teaches is that there are two equally true sides to every story and clients don’t come to lawyers with facts that will guarantee a win. Research is critical to success in a moot court and while it is easier to search these days, one is unlikely to find a decision of the Supreme Court that fits the facts before you perfectly. Formulating the key legal propositions and finding support for them is a skill that is indispensable to every lawyer. Finally, mooting is about persuasion. The days when one wins by confusing the judge are few and far between. One needs to be articulate to be persuasive. This is a skill that is used both inside and outside the court room. In a court room, one has the benefit of a neutral judge. In a negotiation, one is up against another lawyer who is naturally inclined to disagree with you. It is here that the powers of persuasion are tested most. Articulate and persuasive lawyers also put these skills to use while advising a client on a course of action when a client may have an incentive to take an alternative course.

     

    If you see that a person you are considering hiring is good at mooting, does this influence your decision?

    While I look at grades closely and usually have a CGPA cut-off, I also consider all the extra-curricular activities that interested a potential hire. I would definitely interview a student who won moot courts, played team sport, published a paper or had been committed to IDIA (Increasing Diversity by Increasing Access), even if the CGPA was below the cut off for interviews.

     

    As a judge what are the specific skills you look for among the mooters?

    1. Clear legal propositions fully backed up with authority and the ability to anticipate the propositions and authorities of the opponent. Most of this is easily done with thorough research and attention to detail. I expect the participants to know more than the judges.
    2. Clear articulation that persuades me that no one could have argued this case better is perhaps the best description of the winning team. Preparation is the key here so that there are no surprises. If one does find a judge taking an unexpected view, it is an opportunity to demonstrate the breadth of one’s knowledge of the law and facts and quick thinking.
    3. A good sense of humour makes it easier for an advocate to make a connection with the judges; bad timing or poor taste could ruin it though. Quickly evaluating the bench is therefore a key skill. That will tell you what the winning strategy is, how to articulate a proposition so that it rings true to the judges, which authorities are likely to have an impact or when not to press on an issue even if you think you have a good argument.
    4. I have seen students treating moot courts like an elocution contest, reciting to me their memorial. That perhaps works if the judges do not interrupt the speech and I know many judges who will not allow the monologue to last for more than a few minutes. If moot courts are opportunities to prepare for a life in the law, the ability to recite 20 pages of the memorial is not the most valuable skill.

     

    If someone does not go to a top law school, would you say he still has a shot at a great career in law, at the top of the practice?

    Like any other profession, a good education, by which one assumes graduating from a leading academic institution, is merely a good starting point to launch one’s career. It is not necessary for success as a lawyer to have graduated from the leading law schools in the same way as those who did not graduate from one of the top IITs can, and have, succeeded as engineers.

    It is a myth that the top law schools have the monopoly over excellent faculty or infrastructure. With technology that is widely available these days, I believe that the playing field has been levelled and students from every law school have a fair chance at being the best. No judge in a moot court knows which university a student represents. Quality of the memorial and the arguments are the only two qualities that are evaluated. I would find it difficult to ignore a student who did well at Jessup, Manfred Lachs, Stetson or Willem C. Vis. Similarly publication of research papers is another opportunity to demonstrate ones abilities. When I went to London in 1999, almost no one there had heard of the National Law School and it gave me no advantage at all over my Oxbridge educated peers.

     

    What does a general counsel at an MNC like Cipla do?

    The role of a Global General Counsel does not exist in all companies and even in those companies who have it, the roles are not defined uniformly. It all depends on how the company sees the legal function and the organisation structure. Cipla’s legal team is really led by the Chief Legal Officer who manages all the lawyers around the world. I am merely the coach of the legal team and a resource that they can use where there is a critical judgment to be made on conflicting courses of action.

    My main function is to be counsel to the CEO and the management team so that they have someone who can identify, allocate and mitigate enterprise risk in the decisions that are being taken.

    For example, strategic decisions like whether we invest in vertical integration or have long term supplier arrangements.

     

    When you hire lawyers, what kind of skills and profile do you look for?

    Unless one is a sole practitioner, the practice of law is about teamwork. One can learn the law but it is very difficult to change people’s character and personality. The critical quality for me is happiness. I will just not hire a person who I feel is not happy. Energy and enthusiasm are essential for a team to work well. Good grades tell me that the person has been hard working and diligent through law school. Many of the subjects may not be fun but knowing that it has to be done well is a good lesson to be learnt in law school. Most of the work we do will not be interesting every day and I would like to be sure that every person in the team will do it well even if it is not fun. We are presented opportunities to learn everyday and that’s a habit best learnt in law school. Participation in moot courts and team sports, for example, tells me that the person knows what one needs to do to succeed, has seized the opportunities presented to them, works well in a team, is well organised, takes risks but also knows how to prioritise and make good choices.

     

    We have published the rest of the interview here.

  • Iram Huq, Juris Doctor Candidate, Harvard, on interning at the UN, working pro-bono, and working in the US

    Iram Huq, Juris Doctor Candidate, Harvard, on interning at the UN, working pro-bono, and working in the US

    Iram Huq is a graduate from WBNUJS, Calcutta, batch of 2011. She was a top ranker as an orator at the Phillip C. Jessup International Law Moot. She is currently a Doctor of Law at Harvard University, where she is also student of the Moot Court Board (2013-2014).

    In this interview, we speak to her about:

    • Getting a JD from Harvard
    • Interning at the United Nations
    • Taking time out for pro-bono human rights cases

    Tell us a bit about your life before college.

    I went to La Martiniere for Girls in Calcutta and was in the school’s debate team. That inspired me to write the law school entrance exams. I had studied science in plus two, and I liked Physics and Maths. Occasionally, I wish I had taken those subjects more seriously. I really enjoyed them conceptually, but I never saw myself as having a career related to either of those subjects.

    I think that my debating and science background helped me to develop a more objective view of the world. I appreciate the subjective aspects of the law, but I can’t help feeling that our legal system tends to reward sophistry and obfuscation instead of real analysis. I do not have lawyers in my family.

     

    What motivated you to choose law as a career?

    I wasn’t really paying attention to what people thought would be an ‘acceptable’ career. My parents were very encouraging, and my teachers also thought that law would be a great choice, given my skill set. It helped that a lot of people graduate from national law schools with excellent, respected jobs.

    I think middle-class Indian parents tend to be very conservative in estimating what careers are satisfactory for their children. However, I have learned that it is very hard to be successful at things that you do not enjoy. I am glad I was never pressured into choosing some other career.

     

    iram-huq3

    Did your debating skills help you at Jessup?

    Yes, that is absolutely correct. Debating is a great platform to learn public speaking. Once you understand how to put forward an argument in a clear and convincing way, you can apply that skill to any number of activities, including moot court. My father was also in debate teams of La Martiniere and St. Xavier’s so he was a great help. We had a teacher to coach us in school.

    I will say my ‘mentors’ for moot court were my friends and teammates, Deepak Raju and Rukmini Das, who helped me understand the basics of moots and coached me during the initial auditions for the moot court team. (They were both excellent mooters before I had even considered moot court). I also learned a lot from my experience in Vis Vienna, and could apply those lessons to Jessup. Deepak and I were on a debate team together, and that’s how we started working with each other. It was a pretty organic process, and I would like to believe that all three of us learned a lot from each other. I am not a fan of hierarchical team structures where the senior mooters mentor the junior mooters: the best teams are those consisting of friends.

     

    iram-huq4What are your thoughts on activities like mooting and article writing for journals?

    I think that writing for journals is a wonderful educational activity, if you can do it. Unfortunately, I was always too bored of academic articles to attempt to write them (but that was a personal preference). I liked mooting because, in addition to the academic part, it allowed me to travel and work on a single, practical project. Jessup (and Vis, Vienna) helped me understand how the rest of the world views different aspects of international law, improved my analytical and writing skills, and taught me how to network in professional settings. I definitely think that law students should try either mooting or writing for journals, if not both.

     

    Did you get any institutional support for internships from your college?

    No, I did not. NUJS was remarkably reticent when it comes to helping its students get good jobs or internships. It left everything in the hands of students, which was a good thing since the administration was both languid and incompetent. I did network with some of my seniors in law school, who recommended places where I applied and later interned. On two occasions, I secured internships through personal contacts. Young students should not be ashamed of using their contacts to secure internships. It is a perfectly natural process. If you don’t believe me, watch this TED talk

     

    How well do you think your education at WBNUJS prepared you for real world practice of law?

    Honestly, I think we could do with less compulsory classes and more optional classes in law school. It is absurd to think that someone who only wants to be a securities transactions lawyer should be required to study jurisprudence or intellectual property. We were required to study so many things that were absolutely useless to me when I finally began clerking at the Supreme Court. And yet, I never had the opportunity to learn subjects that would become really important in my job, like lower-court trial procedure.

    Additionally, our subjects were often taught in a completely academic manner, devoid of any instruction on how the law actually worked in practice. Finally, we never had clinics or any other option to learn through practical work. If not for moots and internships, my law school experience would have been completely inadequate.

    I do have to say that I had some excellent professors, and their teachings proved to be very useful for me later on in my work. I think law schools need to work on rewarding quality professors.

     

    iram-huq2

    Do you think being from WBNUJS helped your career in any way?

    Yes. Even though I complain a lot about NUJS, I have to say that I was surrounded by very intelligent students and studied under some wonderful professors. Compared to other law schools in India, NUJS has an institutional presence that reinforces an academic spirit and encourages its students to learn the law. I’m very grateful to my peers for challenging me and helping shape the direction of my legal career.

     

    Tell us what factors contributed to your decision to purse Juris Doctor from Harvard?

    I did not want an academic degree, like the LL.M. I was certain that I wanted to work in a law firm in the US. I was applying at a time when the rate of legal hiring was depressed (it still is), and so I concluded that the JD degree was the best option.

     

    iram-huq1What is the application procedure for a JD from Harvard?

    Applicants have to sit for the LSAT, and submit a couple of essays (a personal statement, a diversity statement, and any other essays they want the admissions officer to consider). Needless to say, successful applicants usually have good LSAT scores and compelling essays. Quite a few people have asked me similar questions, and it’s hard for me to explain what constitutes a ‘compelling essay’. But there is a lot of information available on the internet and on LSAC.

    I do not think that anyone can ‘hack’ their way into Harvard. My only suggestion is that applicants should be able to demonstrate a real vision of what they want to do with their Harvard Law degrees once they graduate. I do not think my own essays were particularly good, but I was able to make up for it during the phone interview. That is why I think that some imagination goes a long way.

    The application also requires at least two recommendation letters. Applicants should make sure that they get letters from teachers/employers who really know them and are willing to bat for them. But some institutional weight is also a good thing. I had a letter from Justice Patnaik, for whom I was clerking at the time I made my application. I highly recommend that graduates clerk after law school. It’s a great opportunity to learn how judges and the justice system works. And if you do good work, you’ll have a recommendation letter from a high court or supreme court judge, which is invaluable.

    As for scholarships: I am on a need-based grant at Harvard. Harvard Law does not have academic scholarships, as far as I know. Once you get in, you have to submit a lot of documents about your parents’ income and assets, and they assess a grant package. The whole process is very transparent, and applicants can find all the information on the Harvard Law website.

     

    Do you plan to have a career in the USA?

    Yes. I am currently working as a summer associate at WilmerHale’s New York City office. I hope to secure a job offer by the end of my internship, if everything goes well.

     

    You have been a Chayes Fellow for 2013-14. What does the fellowship entail?

    The Chayes Fellowship is awarded to first-year Harvard Law students who travel internationally for public service work. More information can be found at Chayes international public service fellowship

     

    As part of your Chayes fellowship you were an Intern at United Nations Assistance to the Khmer Rouge Trials. Please share your experience of working at Cambodia.

    Yeah, that’s what I did last summer for ten weeks. It was a great experience—I enjoyed working for the UN in Cambodia. I was working on the prosecution of senior Khmer Rouge leaders. I wrote a blog post about it: Blogs.law.harvard.edu

     

    I gather that most of your internships have been concentrated in and around Human Rights organisations. Is it planned or they just happened?

    I was looking for internships where I would get real experience in research, drafting and filing. It just so happens that large law firms in India rarely let interns shoulder much responsibility. Working for human rights organizations gave me a sense of purpose and also the opportunity to be far more involved in the projects to which I was assigned.

    The firm where I work at present is WilmerHale; it has a large pro bono practice with substantial human rights work. One of my projects is an asylum case. WilmerHale’s pro bono practice allows younger lawyers to shoulder greater responsibility and learn the art of appearing in court. No firm can afford to provide these opportunities in high-stakes litigation, and so human rights work is a great way for younger lawyers to acquire this experience.

     

    How do you manage Human Rights activities alongside the corporate world?

    I am committed to Human Rights work, but I am not a fulltime Human Rights lawyer. My goal has been to work in the corporate world for quite some time now (I have to say that I joined NUJS hoping to be a human rights lawyer). I guess I am privileged, because a few US law firms allow you to do corporate litigation work while still fighting Human Rights cases. I do not think that the two goals have to be mutually exclusive: many US law firms are very profitable even though they allow associates time for different kinds of pro bono work.

     

    Lastly, what would be your message to law students who want to pursue a career in human rights?

    I would say that they should go for it. Personally, I find the Human Rights ‘world’ to be a little oppressive: there is a constant sense of urgency and sadness associated with Human Rights work which interferes with my ability to objectively go about my work. But God knows we need more people dedicated to this field. I respect Human Rights lawyers for their courage and tenacity in the face of all odds. I will acknowledge that money is important, and there is not much of that in the human rights world. But we would be wrong to conflate wealth with success. If there are people who are willing to dedicate themselves to this field, we need to respect their legal skills and talent even as we respect rich and powerful lawyers.

  • Kailash Gupta on a dual degree (JD+MBA) course from Cornell, work as a paralegal and the US Legal Industry

    Kailash Gupta on a dual degree (JD+MBA) course from Cornell, work as a paralegal and the US Legal Industry

    Kailash Gupta is studying for a dual degree course from Cornell Law School. The course will certify him as a JD and as an MBA on completion. Having been educated in the US he has deep insight of the US education system which he shares with us in this interview.

    In this interview he tells us about:

    • Working as a paralegal at NOVA IP Law firm
    • Studying and clearing for LSAT
    • Studying for JD/MBA from Cornell Law School and Johnson Graduate School of Management
    • The top prerequisites for a legal career in the US

     

    Given that most of our readers are law students and young lawyers, how will you introduce yourself to them?

    Hi! I am Kailash and I am currently a JD/MBA Candidate at Cornell Law School and the Johnson Graduate School of Management.  I plan to work in a New York City law firm as a transactional attorney.

     

    Amongst the various career options, what motivated you to choose law?

    My decision to pursue a career in law came after exploring many different career paths as an undergraduate.  I have an undergraduate degree in Economics and pursuing a degree in law, with a focus in business law, seemed like the best way to satisfy both my intellectual and analytical needs.

     

    You have been educated in the United States. How difficult would it be for others to integrate into the education system of US?

    I was born and raised in New Jersey and have not completed any sort of formal education outside the United States.  That being said, integrating into American undergraduate institutions or law schools should not be an issue for international students.  At Cornell and other top ranked universities, school administrators and admissions officers have recently put a greater emphasis on attracting top talent from abroad.  I commonly hear several different languages being spoken as I walk through campus (including my native Telugu).  International students have several student groups on campus and many US-born students are eager to make connections with students from abroad.

     

    You are pursuing Juris Doctor Degree from Cornell Law School. What was the application procedure? Are there any entrance tests?

    Cornell Law School, along with the majority of other US law schools, require applicants to write a two-page personal statement along with optional essays, including addendums to explain any issues or weak spots in one’s application.  Furthermore, each applicant is required to take the Law School Admission Test (LSAT).

     

    How did you prepare for the entrance test? Please tell us about the top three things you kept in mind while preparing for the test. Would you say it was difficult to take the test?

    The LSAT consists of a total of six 35-minute sections.  The sections include one writing sample, two logical reasoning (LR) sections, one reading comprehension (RC) section, one logic games (LG) section, and one experimental section.  The experimental section is either a LR, LG, or RC section and does NOT count to the overall score.  The writing sample is also not incorporated into the overall score, though each school to which one sends his or her score will be able to view the essay.

    Top US law schools have trouble comparing candidates across different undergraduate universities and majors.  Unlike other graduate schools such as medical school, law schools do not require students to take specific undergraduate classes before applying.  Therefore, law school admissions officers primarily compare students based on their LSAT scores.  An applicant’s undergraduate GPA, major,and institution are secondary to one’s LSAT score.  Work experience comes in as the third most important criterion.  Therefore, high performance on the LSAT is imperative for gaining admission.

    My basic approach was to first learn the strategies of taking the exam.  Investing in exam prep materials is highly encouraged.  Secondly, once I was equipped with the basic strategies of how to tackle each question type in each section of the test, I spent significant time taking practice sections and full-length tests.

    After each test or section, I would review the questions I got wrong, identify the question type, and practice those specific types until I was able to consistently answer them correctly.  A final point to remember is the exam takes over four hours to administer.  Test-takers should prepare for the mental marathon that is taking the LSAT.  The best way is to take full-length tests leading up to the exam date.  Still, be careful not to burn out and make sure to be well rested on exam day.

     

    What prompted you to choose Cornell for a JD? Were there any other Universities in mind?

    I was fortunate enough to be choosing between two highly ranked law schools, Georgetown University Law Center and Cornell Law School.  GULC and Cornell each have their strengths.  GULC is located in Washington D.C., the nation’s capital.  Its location puts it in close proximity to some of the greatest legal minds of the country, which include legislators, practicing attorneys, and even the U.S. Supreme Court Justices.  Furthermore, Washington D.C. has more lawyers per capita than any other city in the country.  Cornell, on the other hand, is a small school with a tight-knit community.  Ultimately, its small size, elite faculty, extremely strong placement into big law firms, and strength in business law made it the ideal fit for me. I also completed my undergraduate degree at Cornell so I was fully accustomed to Ithaca.

     

    You had received the ‘CALI Excellence for the Future’ Award. What qualified you for this recognition?

    The Center for Computer-Assisted Legal Instruction is a non-profit dedicated to facilitating computer assisted legal education.  The CALI Excellence for the Future Award is given to students who receive the highest grade in each course, each semester, in participating law schools.  I received the award in my first semester for the Torts and Lawyering courses.

     

    What does it mean to be on the Dean’s List at the Cornell Law School?

    Dean’s List is given to students who stand in the top 30% of the class for each semester of grades.

     

    How important do you think are internships in shaping up the career of a person?

    Pursuing internship(s) as a law student is imperative in securing a job post-graduation.  I am in a unique situation because I am pursuing the dual degree.  Dual-degree students are required to take summer classes at the business school instead of pursuing a first-year internship.  Most pure JD students either do research for professors or intern for a judge, government agency, or non-profit during their first year summer.  At the end of the second year of study at the law school, most students, including the dual-degree students, pursue a summer associate position at a law firm.

    The second-year internships are very important in securing a job post-graduation because the vast majority of big law firms extend full-time employment offers to their summer associates.  While many law students do not plan to work in big law firms in the long run, many nonetheless pursue these second-year summer associate positions and even accept full-time offers.  The reason is that it is generally believed that work in big law firms prepare you for a career in government or business.

     

    You are also pursuing an MBA from Johnson Graduate School of Management. What motivated you to take it up? Would you say an MBA would better equip you in a legal career?

    As a law student with aspirations to work as a transactional attorney, pursuing an MBA was a no-brainer.  Transactional attorneys are constantly poring over business documents in their daily work.  Furthermore, transactional attorneys are often called upon to advise their clients in making decisions that directly affect a client’s business.

    Having a working knowledge of how large businesses operate, which an MBA will undoubtedly provide, is a major benefit when beginning your career as a transactional attorney.  Furthermore, the opportunity cost of one-year’s worth of salary normally associated with pursuing a dual degree program does not exist in Cornell’s three-year program.

     

    You began your professional career with NOVA IP Law as a Paralegal. How did you apply? What did your work profile consist of? Did it require knowledge of law?

    I applied for the position through Cornell’s job posting website prior to graduation as an undergraduate.  The position did not require any prior knowledge of law.  Working as a paralegal is a great introduction into the legal field and serves as an opportunity for one to really decide if a career in law is the right one.

    I worked in a small firm outside Washington D.C. and the experience solidified my desire to pursue a career in law.  I assisted attorneys in legal research, edited and wrote contracts and court documents, and also took on all the clerical tasks associated with office management.  Other than that, I also had the opportunity to manage several attorneys and paralegals working on a short-term basis in a document review project.

     

    What does being a Paralegal mean? How different is it from being an associate at a law firm?

    A paralegal is a legal assistant and serves essential functions in a law firm.  Paralegals are often divided into two distinct categories, career paralegals and short-term paralegals.  Career paralegals pursue the position as a career while short-term paralegals are often recent college graduates who are looking to work in the legal field before pursuing a law degree.  Because I worked in a small firm I was able to take on some of the tasks that normally would be reserved for career paralegals in larger firms.  A friend of mine worked as a paralegal in a large firm in Los Angeles and told me that several of the career paralegals were highly sought after by the firm’s partners when staffing different projects.  Whereas first-year and second-year associates have minimal practical understanding of real world law practice, most career paralegals more often than not have a better working knowledge of the law.

    Even in our Law course, our professors constantly reminded us to turn to the staff paralegals as sources of help when navigating the big law waters as a fresh-out-of-law-school associate.

     

    What are your plans for the coming five years?

    I plan to finish my degree program in 2016 and work as an associate in a law firm in New York City for the foreseeable future.

     

    What are the top prerequisites for a successful legal career in the U.S. for people from other countries?

    Depending on your career goals and aspirations, the unfortunate truth for international students aspiring to work in the US as a lawyer is that they must pursue a JD.  Most LL.M. students I speak to tell me that it is very difficult to secure a job with a big law firm with just an LL.M.  Many LL.M. students sit for the New York bar at the end of their programme and utilize their bar admission through international deals or litigation.

    Beyond the degree itself, law firms look for strong oral and written communication skills and top grades regardless of the fact whether you are an international or a domestic student.  International students should stay updated on the status of US legal employment market.  The past seven years have been especially tough for law students in finding employment and a huge bracket of unemployed law graduates exists. The fair logical leap is that most firms, regardless of size, are going to choose a domestic candidate as the more costly international ones need to be paid higher.

     

    Give us a few tips on finding out the right university for a J.D or an LL.M.

    If any readers are interested in pursuing a JD or LL.M. at a US law school some helpful sources include:

    top-law-schools.com:  This website has helpful information on constructing personal statements, school profiles and rankings, LSAT preparation, etc.

    lawschooltransparency.com:  This website has helpful employment statistics for easy comparison between U.S. law schools.

  • Jaiveer Shergill on being a spokesperson for INC, career in politics and practice as an SC Advocate

    Jaiveer Shergill on being a spokesperson for INC, career in politics and practice as an SC Advocate

    jayveer-shergill1Jaiveer Shergill graduated from WBNUJS, Kolkata in 2006. Thereafter he worked as an associate for Economic Laws Practice, in their Corporate Commercial/Indirect Tax Team in Delhi for some time.

    In June, ’12 he made his entry into Politics by joining Indian National Congress and then he was appointed as a spokesperson in January, ’14. He has been the India Representative of Young Lawyers Committee at International Bar Association and presently, he is working as an independent practitioner in Supreme Court of India.

    We asked him a few questions about:

    • Choosing a specific arena and establishing a legal career
    • Being an independent practitioner at Supreme Court
    • Career options for a lawyer in politics
    • and many other questions relevant to a successful legal career

     

    How should a student structure his internship during law school?

     

    How to make a conscious career choice – corporate vs. litigation?

     

    Who are going to be the best teachers in a law firm?

     

    How far is theoretical knowledge in law schools consistent with the practical arena?

     

    Which forum will give the best exposure? What are most important skills required for subsistence?

     

    When is the right time to decide whether to become drafter or pleader?

     

    What can you expect to learn from a senior counsel?

     

    When is the right time to consider practicing independently?

     

    What does going independent really entail?

     

    How do you measure success? What should be the milestones?

     

    What are the paybacks of practicing independently?

     

    Should you choose what kind of matters to take between civil and criminal?

     

    What are the career options for lawyers in politics?

     

    What are the options in corporate transactions? Is seat-hopping more beneficial in litigation or corporate?

  • Dwijen Joshi on being an exceptional scholar, LL.M. from NUS and a career in International Arbitration

    Dwijen Joshi on being an exceptional scholar, LL.M. from NUS and a career in International Arbitration

    Dwijen Joshi is an exceptionally meritorious student of 2013 batch of GNLU, Gandhinagar. He has been a gold medalist in Arbitration. His interest in arbitration and litigation led him to pursue an LL.M. from National University of Singapore. He talks about the Arbitration proceedings in Singapore and he has a lot to say about the opportunities there.

    We asked Dwijen about:

    • Winning a gold medal in Arbitration and scoring well in exams
    • Studying LL.M. for a career in International Arbitration
    • Faculty, Finances and overall academics at NUS
    • Developing interest in Arbitration and ADR
    • Scope of Indian Lawyers in Singapore

     

    Most of our readers are law students and young lawyers. How will you introduce yourself to them?

    I completed my under graduation from Gujarat National Law University in 2013. Immediately after completing my undergraduate studies I headed to National University of Singapore to pursue Masters in Corporate and Financial Services Law. Within the broad legal sphere I have carved out my interest for Arbitration Law. Other than Law, I am very passionate about Music. I have been learning/playing Tabla since my childhood. During my time in GNLU I was part of a talented bunch of musicians in the Music Club.

     

    How did you gravitate towards law? Why law and not engineering or medical studies?

    I chose Law as I think there is no other field that has a convergence with all walks of life. I never saw myself as doing anything else other than being a Legal Professional. This is a profession, which tests your assertiveness and sensitivity to the aspects of society, which requires some attention or examination. I believe law is as much about contemplation and thinking as much as it is about voicing out your stand.

    It is the most dynamic profession that gives you the liberty and tools to question things that would not seem obvious to someone not trained in law. Though there are different branches of law dealing with two main building blocks of society – Government and Corporations, there is one general theme running in the undercurrents and that is of ‘fairness’. I have always been fascinated by this word.

    My family background also influenced my decision to study law. At a very young age, I began to understand the nuances of Law from my father and grandfather. Though, I always had family support in whichever field I joined, learning law was a very natural process and I took the plunge.

     

    You were one of the most exceptional students at GNLU. It’s not every day that someone bags gold medals! Please give us a few actionable tips on managing higher grades.

    Thanks for a very generous description! I am very grateful to GNLU for awarding me the ‘Late Mr. Milon Kumar Banerji Gold Medal’ for Alternative Dispute Resolution (Arbitration). It is a very heartening recognition.

    As far as studies are concerned it is a very personal thing so what worked for me may not be best for others. Therefore my advice is very holistically directed. I think hard work is sine qua non for good grades. Life in law school is like a marathon you have to keep running till the last semester and closely watch your pace throughout the five years.  I believe that higher grades are the by-products of the grit and passion that you show towards learning and therefore, learning should be the goal and not the grades. This will make studying enjoyable.

    I always preferred to study from my own notes as it narrows down your area of focus and can be helpful for revisions during the exams. It is very important to maintain a good mental outlook throughout the whole process. Also, I would say smart work is more important than hard work. Try to identify more relevant areas and focus on them. Regular studies will help manage your time better throughout the semesters.

    To save myself from falling into nerdy bracket, in my defense, I believe five years is a golden period to enjoy to the fullest. For some it will be the last few years as a student. So it is more important to have fun, engage in extra-curricular activities and have a balanced routine. I have been fortunate to meet amazing people here and forged relationships for lifetime.

     

    What was your motivation behind pursuing LL.M.? When did you finally decide that you need to do Masters?

    The decision to pursue LL.M. was the most important decision that I made in last two years. It was in my fourth year of undergraduate studies that I felt I still had one more year of student life left and took the decision. Therefore, I did not get myself registered with Committee on Recruitment Affairs (CRA) for placements. My motivation to pursue an LL.M was to have an exposure of studying law in a top ranking International Law School. It was a risky decision as it was an investment of time, energy and money. And I had again exposed myself to academic judging for sixth year in a row. But it was my passion to experience the intellectual rigour of a Law School such as NUS, which kept me driven.

    I had planned to build specialized knowledge base and skill set through an LL.M, which was not possible through an undergraduate degree. An LL.M provided me with a head start into such complex legal concepts which otherwise would be possible only after two or three years of practice.

     

    How did you choose NUS over others? How did you go about choosing a university?

    I followed bottoms-up approach while making the applications. I sorted out my areas of Interest and my expectations from an LL.M in terms of knowledge and skill-set. Then I went about choosing the universities, which are reputed I was interested in. Finally I had short-listed only five universities where I eventually sent my applications. All were UK based except for NUS.

    I chose not to apply to US, as pursuing LL.M there is little expensive affair. In London-based universities one gets to study four modules throughout the LL.M. whereas NUS requires completion of total 40 credits, which means one has to study 10 modules of four credits each. I chose to go to Singapore also because of my interest in Arbitration Law and increasing popularity of Singapore as a Hub of Arbitration in Asia.

     

    Does NUS provide students with scholarships? Are there any other institutions, which provide scholarships?

    NUS does provide for scholarships. The criterion for selection is competitive. I am not sure if they have instituted scholarships especially for Indian students. There are some scholarships awarded by British Council for UK universities. Felix and Inlaks scholarships are also very famous amongst law students. The former is only for UK universities. Ministry of HRD also has some scholarship schemes that keep changing so one has to look for it constantly.

     

    Did you undergo a rigorous academic schedule? How was that different from your under-graduate course?

    Life in NUS was rigorous in comparison to the under-graduate course. Time management is the key to grapple with the demands of the respective modules chosen. The faculty will expect you to go through the reading materials before each class. For some modules the assigned reading for each seminar may be painfully long and may run up to nearly hundred pages or more. The class hours are also very long. One Seminar will be three hours long.

    The class contains a very diverse group of people. Some of them will have had experience of working in law firms in their home jurisdictions on the issues being discussed in the class. So for some modules the faculty recommends to have some foundational understanding. The assessment patterns for the courses are diverse. The assessments are split across the semester and the submissions may fall within close dates. Evaluations include class presentations, research paper submissions, group exercises – I also had a chance to appear in an Arbitration moot for one of my courses.

     

    NUS is well renowned for its brilliant faculty. How was your experience with the faculty?

    The NUS law faculty consists of professors who have established an international repute for their contribution intheir respective areas of expertise. The best part of NUS is that it invites professors from different universities across the world to come down and conduct intensive courses in NUS itself. Intensive modules last for about three weeks. I had an opportunity to undertake Word Trade Law seminars conducted by Prof. Joseph Weiler. He is currently President of European University Institute, Florence. He is a world-renowned academician in the field of Trade Laws. He is also a distinguished panel member of World Trade Organization. I took a module on International Investment Law taught by Prof. Loukas Mistellis. He is the Director of International Arbitration at Queen Mary University, London.

    Some courses have very high demand and usually oversubscribed including the Mergers & Acquisition course conducted by Prof. Umakanth Varottil. He is an ex AMSS partner who is revered for his expertise in Corporate Law. The way stalwarts like them conduct the seminars sometimes becomes very exhilarating. As, some may follow Socratic method of teaching. In Prof. Weiler’s class it is suicidal to go unprepared. His random questions thrown at you compels you to spontaneously frame complex legal arguments and make you think on your feet. An unanswered question may bring embarrassment. It is this unique learning experience, which helps one develop exceptional skill-set necessary for an international lawyer to be. Some professors prefer lecture method of teaching and the class aura is cool with such professors.

     

    How difficult was studying abroad in terms of finding accommodation, finances and settling in?

    Finding an accommodation is not an issue at NUS. The university has built state of the art accommodation infrastructure called UTown. It is situated at Kent Ridge campus that is few metro-stations away from the Bukit-Timah campus where the law school is situated. The policy of NUS is to give preference to research students pursuing a doctorate and exchange students while allocating accommodation. Nevertheless, many people are able to successfully get accommodation within the university accommodation itself.

    NUS provide internal bus service to shuttle students between Utown to law campus.  Other than that, there are private hostels, which are just walking distance away from the law campus. Two such places popular amongst LL.M students coming to NUS are Evans Hostel and Singapore International Campus. I was putting up at College Green Villas, which was just a stone’s throw away from the law campus. As for finances my parents supported me.

     

    You were involved in a Bilateral Investment Treaty (BIT) case last year. What was this all about? How did you get to work on this? What did your job entail?

    International Arbitrations can be broadly classified into International CommercialArbitration and Investment Treaty Arbitration. India is signatory to several Bilateral Investment Treaties (BIT) with various countries. A foreign investor from the country, which is Signatory to a BIT with India, can invoke Investment Arbitration against India under such treaty. This is a developing area of Arbitration and the law is still in formative stage. The issues pertaining to jurisdiction and enforcement are most likely to come-up in such cases. I knew of a law firm in Delhi – Dutt Menon and Dunmorrsett that dealt with the famous Vodafone Tax case. They provided me an opportunity to work with them on a BIT arbitration issue. It was a very exciting opportunity and a constructive engagement before heading back to NUS.

     

    What are the internship opportunities in Singapore?

    It is possible to get internships in Singapore-based law firms provided the applications are sent at the right time to the right firm. For those coming to NUS for LL.M it will be helpful to them if they prepare a list of the firms where they want to intern before coming to Singapore. During the course of the semester managing internship applications alongside the usual coursework tasks, becomes little edgy.

     

    How did you develop interest in Arbitration? Where do you see yourself by the end of the coming five years?

    I had an interest in Dispute Resolution especially litigationeven before joining law school. At that time I did not know much about arbitration. My first initiation into the subject was when I chose to write a paper on it in my first year of Law School itself. Gradually with internships, interactions with the experts in the area and of course with formal initiation into the subject in GNLU, I realized that I have a knack for this area. Five years down the line I see myself as a counsel involved in Litigation as well as Arbitration. In the long term I see myself as working in Dispute Resolution practice area of an Indian Law firm. Moreover I see myself as an Indian lawyer qualified to practice in UK and Singapore after having cleared QLTS (Qualified Lawyer Transfer Scheme) and FPE (Foreign Practitioner Examination) for the respective jurisdictions.

     

    Do you think that Singapore is gradually becoming the hub of Arbitration in Asia, especially for Indian Arbitrations? What are your thoughts on this? What are the opportunities for Indian Lawyers?

    Singapore is becoming a favorite destination for the Arbitration Practitioners across Asia including India. The number of Arbitration agreements involving Indian parties, stipulating Singapore as a seat of Arbitration is increasing. A lot of sophisticated Indian Arbitration disputes are being settled in Singapore International Arbitration Center. It is a preferred destination also for ad-hoc arbitrations as Singapore courts have adopted a very favourable arbitration policy. Many Indian companies have their investments in Singapore so it becomes easy to enforce the award. In Singapore, Foreign-qualified lawyers who pass the Foreign Practitioner Examinations (FPE) can apply for a Foreign Practitioner Certificate (FPC) from the Attorney General to practice in permitted areas of Singapore law.

     

    Lastly, what would be your message to people who want to take up a career in Arbitration?

    I will say it is an exciting career option.  It is also very challenging at the same time. Arbitration and Litigation are two sides of the same coin. So if one enjoys spending more time arguing cases outside the office comforts, this is where they should see themselves. The skill set required for a counsel arguing before a court and before an Arbitration Tribunal is same. Except in the case of International Arbitration, the style of arguments differs if the Tribunal consists of experts trained in Civil Law in which case the style of arguments is substantially different from what Common Law lawyers like us are trained to use.

    Lastly, I will say for those who do not have a legal background in their family and want to pursue litigation as a career option, just go for it if that is your calling. There will be hardships in the beginning, the incentives are less but in the end it is your passion, which will drive you forward towards success – so that in the end you can proudly say ‘And that has made all the difference’.

  • Raghul Sudheesh on starting up with LegallyYours, career in legal journalism & being an RTI activist

    Raghul Sudheesh on starting up with LegallyYours, career in legal journalism & being an RTI activist

    Raghul Sudheesh needs no introduction. He is popular among the legal fraternity as someone who used to work at Bar & Bench and later started up with the only Legal newspaper in India: LegallyYours.

    We talk with Raghul about his:

    • Starting up with LegallyYours
    • A career in legal journalism
    • Experience as an RTI activist and importance of RTI

     

    Tell us about yourself. What were you doing before Legally Yours?

    I graduated from NUALS, Cochin in 2011. While at Law School, I was never interested in a corporate or a law firm career. From my second year till the end of Law School, I interned with Advocate M A Rashid who founded the web portal Answeringlaw. Answeringlaw was a new experiment and was started even before Indian Kanoon; and was providing daily Supreme Court judgment updates along with other relevant legal news updates. It was the turning point in my law school life as it sparked my interest in blogging and my blog Stripped Law<www.strippedlaw.blogspot.com> was my first step into legal writing.

    I was planning to pursue Masters from abroad till my final year; but then things changed suddenly. I decided to work for few years and then pursue Masters. It was Prof. Shamnad Basheer who suggested that I should try my luck with legal journalism; probably he might have felt so after seeing my blog posts. I applied to Bar & Bench and got through because of Prof. Basheer’s reference. From then, there was no looking back. I stayed with Bar & Bench for almost two years covering courts, judiciary and law schools. It was a very fulfilling and heart warming experience!

     

    legally-yours

    What is Legally Yours and how is it different from working at the other places?

    Legally Yours is focussed on print and is not an online publication. We will have a website soon but the focus is on hard copies as of now. We are a monthly and my challenge is to make it a fortnightly. Also the circulation has to be improved from 10,000 copies to a six digit number. I take this as an exciting opportunity and the Managing Editor, Siby Sudhakaran is an entrepreneurial person. Siby comes up with lot of exciting ideas. Recently, we launched India Law Schools Index [ILSI]. ILSI aims to facilitate and help law aspirants in making an informed decision about a college. ILSI lists all law schools in the country with relevant information. I feel fortunate to work with this young and dynamic team. You don’t get to do that always!

     

    What is your advice to legal entrepreneurs?

    I would advise them to start small and grow big, rather than going for investors in the initial stages. If you have an investor in the initial stages, it can lead to a situation, where the investor takes the company from you. You will need to have total control over your business and that is very essential. However, in certain cases investors become inevitable. There you need to be very clear on your terms and conditions. Arrange your finance wells in advance. I know start ups where investors went back on their promises and never gave funding as promised. So please don’t wait till funds become so urgent.

     

    Do we need mentors to be successful in a legal career?

    I do not believe mentors are inevitable for success in law school but guidance is however good. If you see my career, I have had good people to advice me like, Prof. Shamnad Basheer, M A Rashid, Richa Kachhwaha and many others.  I used to reach out to people in the industry and maintain good rapport with everyone. That has always helped me a lot. I would advise my juniors to do the same. Keep networking and speak out to people. Ask them about all the queries you have and they can turn really helpful at times. Also, maintain good relations with peers from other law schools, which can also help a lot!

     

    What do you have to tell those who want a career in legal journalism?

    My simple advice would be to keep reading and keep writing. Your reading has a direct influence on your writings. This is the best thing you can do to improve your writing skills. This can help a lot, at least that is what my experience has taught me. Writing scholarly articles on law and doing legal journalism are entirely different things. Some people tend to mix up the two. I would suggest following Indian legal news portals, the international ones and prominent newspapers regularly. You need to start writing / freelancing from law school days, so by the time you pass out, you are a familiar face in the legal journalism circle. Legal Journalism – on print and web is growing at a fast rate. I am sure there will not be any dearth of openings. Five minutes before this interview started, I got a call from a Senior Journalist, asking if I can recommend any good legal journalist for their news portal!

     

    Are you hiring? What kind of people do you need?

    We do not have any major openings as of now but I am looking for a pro active law student as my Research Associate at Legally Yours. The person will have to assist me in all my works and in addition to that the person will be assigned other tasks. If anyone is interested, please mail me: raghul@legallyyours.in

     

    What role do you believe legal journalism will play in the coming five years?

    As of today, our profession is very rotten. CLAT is full of goof ups, AIBE has been a mess, corruption is even creeping into Judiciary, litigation is much expensive and what not! These are issues which affect law aspirants, law students, advocates and judges. Anything that affects the legal fraternity is likely to impact the society and the country directly or indirectly. Hence, we would be focusing on such issues. Our aim is to bring in more transparency and there by cleaning up the whole system as all the democratic institutions, particularly the judiciary, need to be strengthened.

     

    How indispensable is RTI for an investigative journalist? What are your thoughts on the proposed RTI Amendment? How has been your experience being an RTI activist?

    RTI Act is an indispensable tool for a legal journalist. We pick many stories from RTI replies and the Act is a must for transparency in this country. The process as of now is simple but there are attempts to make amendments and weaken the Act. Especially, there is an attempt to put a limit on number of words you can ask in your query. All these will make the Act ineffective. I think the Act should continue in its present form and protection for RTI activists must be provided.

    Once I filed an RTI application at a top law school asking details about the expenses of the law school, particularly the Vice-Chancellor’s expenses. One day, when I reached my office at morning, I saw a policeman standing outside and the receptionist conveyed that he was waiting for me. The policeman came to check who I was and what I was doing. They also delivered the RTI reply from the law school in person to me. The Sub-Inspector (over phone) conveyed that the Vice-Chancellor (through the Commissioner’s office) asked to deliver this to me as they could not find my address. I receive more than 10 letters at my office on a daily basis, so I don’t believe their version that they could not trace my address. I found this to be very awkward and an attempt to intimidate me. Had I not been a journalist and the place my office, the situation would have been different. If this is what a law school does to an RTI activist, you can imagine the situation of activists seeking information from government offices! And as of now there is no protection for RTI activists.

     

    What would be your message to law students?

    My humble advice would be to pursue what your heart says. Do not do something that’s just mechanical and do not just follow what others do. Please stay away from the herd mentality at law school. Just because someone is doing something, you do not have to follow it. Believe in your talents! All the best!

  • Aakanksha Kumar on winning 15 gold medals, LL.M. from NUS and a career as a researcher & teacher

    Aakanksha Kumar on winning 15 gold medals, LL.M. from NUS and a career as a researcher & teacher

    aakanksha-kumar3Aakanksha Kumar graduated from HNLU in 2012, as an exceptional scholar, winning 15 gold medals in various subjects. Thereafter she pursued an LL.M. from the Faculty of Law, National University of Singapore. She had joined ITM University as a Research Associate last year and she shall be joining NLU Jodhpur as an Assistant Professor in July 2014. In this interview she talks about:

    • Getting higher grades and winning 15 gold medals
    • Selecting a university for higher studies
    • Scholarships, Academics and research experience at NUS
    • Experience as a Research Associate at ITM University
    • A career in teaching and research

     

    Most of our readers are law students and young lawyers. How will you introduce yourself to them?

    I am your everyday nerd in love with the law, and the best possible way to spread the love for the law, I believe, is to teach it effectively. I come from a north Indian family, currently based out of Bhilai, Chhattisgarh and am a Dipsite. I finished my B.A.LL.B.(Hons.) at HNLU, Raipur in 2012 and completed my Masters in International and Comparative Laws from  the Faculty of Law, National University of Singapore in July 2013. I have been teaching full-time on a research associate position, at the School of Law, ITM University, Gurgaon since July 2013 and I shall be joining the National Law University, Jodhpur w.e.f.  July 1, 2014 as Assistant Professor (Law). My teaching specialisations include Arbitration & ADR and Comparative Competition Laws, along with research interests in IPR and World Trade Law.

     

    How did you gravitate towards law? Why law and not engineering or medical studies?

    Well, I do have the regular “influenced by the parents” story behind my choice of pursuing a career in the law. My father, though not a lawyer, completed his LLB when I was in IX standard and I used to love reading his course books. I was always interested more in the social sciences, but since our school did not have an option to move to the Humanities stream after the X standard, I did pure sciences till XII standard and then appeared for 9 different law entrance exams, and chose HNLU over NUJS and ILS Law School, Pune. Engineering or medicine were never even remote options as I was horrible at Math and Chemistry and was looking for the first chance to give those up. Little did I realize that I will find Patent laws easier and be specializing in IPR eventually, only because my school science studies helped. The other options I had considered were in fact English Literature and Journalism.

     

    You were one of the most exceptional students at  HNLU. It’s not every day that someone bags 15 gold medals! Please give us a few actionable tips on managing higher grades.

    Thank you! They sure came as a welcome surprise, but I don’t really dwell on that glory, though they do add considerably to the number of pages on my CV 😉

    I was asked this question on another interview and my answer remains the same.Since Day 1 of law school, I knew I was studying law to be able to eventually teach it.  Hence the study method adopted by me was to cater to my ultimate goal – I would study first and then revise again by teaching my other batch-mates.

    Unlike the clichéd “I study for X number of hours in a day”; my study pattern varied a lot. I honestly never studied for more than 4 hours in a day. Instead, my success mantra was – undivided attention to class-room teaching and self study of the same topics that very day after classes. Hence I was able to relax when end-term exams approached, knowing that I would manage to study and revise what was taught. I had different study methods for different subjects, given their level of difficulty, or the extent of extra study required. Regular taking down of notes during classes also helped a lot in later self study. Moreover, the aim was never about getting the highest grade. It was about being so in love with the law, that one automatically wrote an answer so thorough, that the examiner couldn’t fault it.

    Also, the trick on really securing higher grades is sometimes to get inside the head of the teacher, and understand what they want in an answer. I always tell my students to carefully follow the classroom discussion, as often there may be hints on how to attempt exam questions.

     

    What was your motivation behind pursuing LL.M.? When did you finally decide that you need to do masters?

    Like I mentioned earlier, I knew I was studying law to be able to teach it. And one cannot do that without a Masters degree. I come from a very strongly academically oriented family. Both sets of grandparents are or have been teachers or professors. My maternal grandfather; who continues to remain a source of inspiration, is a nuclear physicist and was also the Dean of the BHU Science Faculty. My mother is an English teacher, with  Masters in both Pharmacy and English. I thus like to believe that being academically inclined is in my genes. And completing an LLM to cater to my academic pursuits was the next logical step to take.

     

    How did you choose NUS over others? How should one go about choosing a university?

    I had applied to mostly schools in the UK [UCL, King’s, Queen Mary’s] and NUS. I  was always looking at NUS as my top choice, given the popularity and worth attached to their International Law LLM, as well as given considerations of costs and proximity to India. Under Prof. Simon Chesterman’s (Dean, NUS Law) able guidance, the NUS International  and Comparative Laws LLM has carved for itself a special place in international legal academia. Since NUS is known to value academic excellence above all else, I was hopeful about getting in, given my CGPA and rank.

    When choosing a law school, one must not just look at the overall reputation of the school, but also at the reputation of the courses offered vis-a-vis one’s own interest areas. E.g. One chooses King’s London, to generally pursue a Competition Law specialisation Masters, or Rotterdam (Erasmus Mundus) for the Economic Laws LLM. The next very important consideration is obviously the tuition plus living expenses, and available scholarships. Other considerations include accessibility of the city and if one plans to settle down abroad, then, future employability concerns. Another important thing to remember is that an LLM abroad, while being a wonderful opportunity to network with like minded people from all parts of the world, is also not a joy ride. It’s a huge undertaking with a pretty hefty study load, and thus one must make up one’s mind thoroughly before applying. Also, one must structure one’s LLM CV to show experience – either in work, internships or research, in the chosen area of Masters Specialisation.

     

    Does NUS provide students with scholarships? Are there any other institutions which provide scholarships?

    Every application to the Masters Programme in NUS Law is automatically considered for scholarships, though their selection criteria is not very transparent or anywhere on paper. From the trend in the past couple of years, it is usually people [strictly applicable to Indian students] with tier 1 law firm work experience for atleast a full year, with amazing references, that get the Faculty Graduate Scholarship. So, I know of peers who had experience at Nishith Desai Associates, or at AMSS whose reference letters were written by  SC Judges or law firm managing partners, who bagged the scholarship.

    So if aiming at a scholarship at NUS, do not pursue an LLM immediately after law school, and build a credible list of referees.

    Most law schools and universities do have their own scholarships for the Masters programmes. There are also other more popular scholarships – the Fullbright for study in the US, The Commonwealth Scholarship etc. There are several institutions who offer financial aid and bursaries for foreign LLMs but I am not the right person to detail those as I didn’t research too much when I applied. For Indian Students especially, I know of UCL offering a special Chief Justice Scholarship and LSE Offers a Marchant Foundation LLM Scholarship. And all scholarships require a very well written personal statement.

     

    What was your topic of research for LL.M? Why did you choose that subject for research?

    At NUS Law, one need not necessarily take up the Directed Research Dissertation. One can choose to do a full course for credits instead. I,  however chose to drop a full course module and did the UROP-DR [University Research Opportunities Programme – Directed Research] for 4 credit points.

    My research thesis is titled – ‘The Taking of Evidence in International Arbitration: A New Legal Regime’ which was supervised by Prof. Gary F. Bell, who is an Associate Professor at  NUS Law and a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, Singapore. I chose to complete my research project in a conflict of laws aspect of international arbitration as I was “precluded” from studying the course on International Arbitration at NUS, having completed an optional specialisation at HNLU in the same. Further, international arbitration both as a substantive field of legal study as well as its procedures, has always intrigued me, given the high level of independence and flexibility in this method of alternative resolution of disputes.

    Moreover, I always wanted to teach ADR and International Arbitration eventually, and given the mindset of Indian law school faculty selection committees, an LLM thesis in the area gives me an added advantage.

     

    Did you undergo a rigorous academic schedule? How was that different from your under-graduate course?

    NUS has a very demanding curriculum, that requires you to complete a total of 40 credits in the academic year. Of these 40 credits, 24 must compulsorily be of those subjects that are on the list of your chosen specialisation, and the remaining 16 can be from other specialisations. I did 32 credits of International and Comparative Laws and 8 credits of IPR. I also did one full 8 credit course on World Trade Law that was very demanding. Unlike one hour lectures, 5 days a week in India, the NUS contact hours differ. The 4 credit courses are taught once a week for a rigorous three hour seminar that is conducted in the Socratic method of teaching- learning. This meant that if one was unprepared with the assigned readings for that day’s seminar, one had to be ready to face the embarrassment. However, classes were always extremely interesting as they were more discussion based, and our professors were brilliant! Since I was anyway used to putting my nose to the grindstone even when at HNLU, the NUS curriculum didn’t come to me as a “culture shock” personally. Also, when one sees the dedication of the undergrad students who generally take the same classes, one is motivated to be as good as them, if not outshine them in class.

    What is unique to NUS, is the concept of “intensive courses” that are taught in the first three weeks of a semester, for 9 hours in a week [3 hours * 3 days], usually from 6:30PM to 9:30PM. These courses are taught by experts and stalwarts in the area and are specialisation papers. Masters students are to take one intensive course in each semester. A 6 – hour take home exam is then conducted in the 7th or 8th week of the semester for this course. So one basically completes a subject specific specialisation in just 2 months! Extremely demanding but also very fulfilling. I took the courses on EU Private International Law taught by Prof. Franco Ferrari from NYU and Comparative Competition Law and Economics taught by Prof. Roger van den Bergh from Rotterdam [Erasmus Mundus] – both very practical as opposed to theoretical papers and it was in a way, somewhat surreal to learn from and discuss with people who actually wrote the laws that were being studied.

     

    You also worked under Prof. Irene Calboli as a research assistant. Please share some insight on your research topic.How was your experience working with her?

    Prof. Calboli is “God” on IPR. She’s the most amazing, wonderful human being I have ever encountered in my life.  She was my course teacher for the module on International Trade and Intellectual Property Laws and I secured the highest grade in the subject, which helped me bag the coveted RA spot under her. She was extremely patient with my over exuberance and always encouraged my out of the box interpretations and suggestions, and I still continue to be in touch with her and assist her in whatever manner I can.

    My research work for her included completing and editing a chapter she was doing then on the Cultural and Economic Advantages of Geographical Indications and enhanced protection for them. The Chapter is now complete and is available on SSRN

    I also did some work on GI protection and Sustainable Development in Asia and did a compilation of GI success and failure stories from Asia, that helped her in a paper she was planning in May last year. The same eventually materialized as her presentation at the ASLI Annual Conference in Malaysia last weekend.

     

    NUS is well renowned for its brilliant faculty. How was your experience with the faculty?

    LLM from Singapore was a blessing and the law school is a ‘learner’s paradise’. I learnt not just about learning, but also learnt about “teaching”, which is what I had set out to do. Every single one of the professors I learnt from were brilliant and exceptional in their respective fields of expertise. Each had their own peculiar teaching methods, that were effective in their own special ways. I learnt how to handle a huge classroom from the likes of Prof. Weiler, who was the perfect person to be teaching World Trade Laws, I learnt how to be effective when teaching IPR from the likes of Prof. David Tan, who also happens to be a fashion photographer, and how being simple is the best when it comes to understanding complexities of the UN, from Prof. Chesterman. Also, unlike in India, where faculty is often, unfortunately unapproachable and passive, teachers at NUS are the most approachable, amicable and available at even odd hours to cater to your academic and research queries.

     

    How difficult was studying abroad in terms of finding accommodation, finances and settling in?

    Singapore was a cakewalk, given that my parents have friends there and I had visited the country before. Plus Singapore is extremely comfortable for Indians, given the vast Indian population and accessibility to Indian food, and is so so well planned that one cannot help but feel a little spoilt. In terms of finances, the country is a little heavy on the pocket as the standard of living is like being in any other European city, but I was very lucky to have bagged a seat in the University housing offered by the NUS LKY School of Public Policy which is a seven minute walk to the NUS Law Faculty, through the national heritage botanical gardens. So I ended up saving a lot on travel, and food as I was able to cook most of my meals myself. Singapore is a small, clean, very safe and beautiful country to be in.

     

    How was your experience at WIPO Summer School? What was the application procedure for the same?

    The WIPO Summer School again, was another experience of a lifetime. After I completed my LLM exams, I had some time to kill until Commencement so, along with research work for Prof. Calboli, I applied to the WIPO Summer School. The summer school luckily that year was happening for the first time in Singapore in association with the IPOS and the IPA. The application is to be completed online, within the deadline slots given and once selected, each student is required to complete the DL 101 General Course on IPR. Since I had already completed the DL 101 in November 2010 and had also effectively completed an LLM, I was exempt from the course. The Summer School was spread over two weeks and we had special sessions on niche areas of IP – Patent Valuation, GI Protection, Trade Mark and Merchandising, Domain Names etc taken by subject matter experts from both in the government in Singapore and from academia in both Singapore and abroad. The most fun part was the assignments especially the TM Protection – Negotiation simulation conducted by Mr. Mendes from Opteon, Australia. The student crowd was also a great mix of both lawyers and engineers and I was certainly enriched with greater knowledge upon completion and also made some great friends.

     

    You worked as research assistant at Centre for International Trade and Economic Laws, JGLS How was your experience as a Research Assistant there?

    CITEL was unfortunately a very short stint, but nonetheless I learnt a lot about how trade policies of our neighbours influence our own economic and trade policies. I was given the task of preparing the Trade Policy Monitoring Reports of China for Q3, 2012 as a research intern and I also assisted with research for a submission to the IIFT on Energy Subsidies in India. Prof. James Nedumpara is a very keen and able mentor to work under, and we sure did have NUS LLM stories to exchange too.

     

    Glitz of a corporate job often blinds a law studentand he fails to look at different career opportunities. Were you in double minds before taking up the teaching job? Why did you prefer the teaching profession over other jobs?

    At the cost of being repetitive, I did always want to end up teaching. However, I  also completed my share of regular law school internships and did intern at two tier 1 firms, in my final year for a PPO.  Also, I got a call from one, the day I sent in my NUS acceptance. I had earlier declined an IPR Litigation job offer. I would be lying if I said that I didn’t try my luck again at firms, upon my return to India, but  I eventually realized, that my calling lay in teaching and it is what I am best at.  And this also came after continued encouragement from my peers in law school, who were also happy to act as my students right before exams when I did quick syllabus recaps for them.  I also took up the teaching seminar in fifth year at HNLU, and enjoyed every minute of being in a classroom.

    I love my job, and take it very seriously. And nothing beats the sense of accomplishment one gets when an otherwise below average student in the beginning of a semester, ends up writing a brilliant paper in the end term exams.  And that is the best  personal validation and the major perk of being in this profession. Moreover, I have seen my own teachers – some were truly brilliant, the others, merely hiding behind the façade of having qualified the UGC NET. I wanted to be the teacher to future lawyers, that I didn’t have. I still am taking baby steps, and am getting there, gradually. One gets to keep learning on the job, and I have always subscribed to the policy that one learns better while teaching.

     

    Financial security is a major concern for law graduates who aspire to take up teaching jobs. Did you face similar concerns? What challenges did you face while working as research associateat ITM University?

    Financial security was never a concern, especially at ITMU, as ITMU pays really well to an RA, and even better to a UGC NET qualified Assistant Professor, i.e. higher than the UGC Scale of pay. However, being  in a private University, the work-life balance is a little hampered and one is expected to work for a minimum of 8 hours a day on not just classes and academics but also don several other administrative roles. So we mentored moot teams, organized guest lectures, conferences, seminars, and had additional charge of the Internship Cell, given the relatively nascent stage that the law school is in. That I think is the problem with law teaching in India. The UGC expects a certain level of research and academic output for the API Scoring. On the other hand your employer expects fulfilment of multiple administrative responsibilities, and thus, being in at a faculty position in a law school becomes a 24*7 job, sometimes work hours being worse than those at law firms.

    But if one learns to love and enjoy ones’ job, the whole drill seems worth your troubles as the perks – both financially and otherwise [student feedback] are great.

     

    Recently you took up a job at NLU Jodhpur as an Assistant Professor. What are your plans for the future?

    I shall be joining NLUJ w.e.f. July 1, 2014. I have been given charge of teaching Constitutional Governance and ADR. I  see NLUJ as a long term plan and hope to begin my PhD by early next year, hopefully at NLUJ itself. A book chapter is also in the pipeline. It is otherwise too soon to be taking ambitious career steps and I am just looking forward to being back in an environment I believe I am more suited to – an NLU.

     

    Lastly, what would be your message to people who want to take up a career in teaching?

    Though barely a year old to teaching, I do have a few observations from watching most of my family in the profession. Please do not taking up teaching because it’s the only alternative. Take it up because you want to do justice to the profession and because that’s where you know your calling lies. As a teacher, one must never shy from admitting mistakes or saying one does not know something, rather than telling one’s students the wrong thing. Also, one must treat the job with the sanctity it demands. The returns in the teaching profession do not lie in increased popularity with the students or in the amount of attention one gets from them outside the classroom. Strive to be that teacher who the students will miss when they leave, because of the knowledge they gained and retained from the classes and interactions, and not for the number of internships they bagged or attendances marked with a “P”. The returns lie in seeing one’s students do well – both inside the class and elsewhere in the world.