Tag: NLU Delhi

This interview has been published by Anshi Mudgal and The SuperLawyer Team

I’ll start with a very, very prominent question: how did you decide to become a lawyer, and then how did you decide to pursue an MBA as well? And that too, by scoring a staggering GMAT score of 740. Please enlighten our learners and us as well.

So, I’ll be very honest, I never even dreamt of doing an MBA when I was setting out to become a lawyer. But luckily for me, I was born in a family where my grandfather was a lawyer, and that too, he wasn’t a lawyer throughout his career. He became a lawyer after he retired from government services. He was a civil lawyer. You would imagine that a lawyer who would take care of disputes, of people who would take care of disputes for companies, would have a lot of people coming into the house.

So, very early on, from my childhood days, I would see people come to him for advice and assistance, even people who used to stay near our society. I would always see them come with a sense of hope and a sense of gratitude when they would leave, and that feeling, that there’s one person who could give people that hope, that guidance and that comfort that they need at a time which is probably very traumatic or very difficult for them, was something that I took very closely. So, I wanted to become a lawyer from a very early age.

Secondly, I also enjoyed reading a lot, so that went in my favor because I realized that a lawyer’s job is to constantly update his or her knowledge, constantly keep on reading, and I enjoyed reading. So I felt, okay, this is another avenue where I think I can enhance those aspects about me because I also love to read and I love to learn more.

So, I really wanted to become a lawyer since I was 10 years old, and I never really took up any law coaching as such. This is going to segue into my GMAT score. I actually studied for the engineering entrance exams. I got a decent rank in the AIEEE and got on the extended merit list in the IIT as well, but I never wanted to become an engineer. Engineering was always, for me, a backup option.

Once I got a good score in CLAT and then subsequently a score in AILET, which allowed me admission into National Law University, Delhi, I think it was a slam dunk for me because A, it was Delhi, and B, it was led by Professor Dr. Ranbir Singh, who had basically propped up NALSAR to become one of the best law schools in the country. I was genuinely excited about being part of one of the earlier batches of this institution, which thankfully today continues to be one of the best in the country.

So, for me, law was always a very clear path. I would say corporate law was not really that clear of a path. It was only during my time working with different law firms that I developed a fascination for corporate law, and when I joined my first firm, I realized that there is a lot of excitement I find in helping businesses navigate challenges.

I would say that is effectively the mantra that I followed. What do I want to be? I want to be someone who helps companies, businesses, entrepreneurs, and founders solve challenges and help them on the path to growth or to avoid risks from harming that business or harming that proposition. So that’s pretty much how my journey started.

For my MBA, honestly, that’s a whole other answer. I never imagined that I would do an MBA. I never imagined I would go to INSEAD for my MBA, but yeah, I’ll be happy to discuss that once you want me to discuss it.

We would love to discuss this immediately because, while you had initially prepared for engineering, you ultimately chose to pursue law. How did you adapt your mindset while preparing for the GMAT, given that it requires precision and a completely different approach compared to the way lawyers typically write? How did you unlearn certain habits, relearn new strategies, and successfully achieve this remarkable result?

So first, the rationale for why I wanted to do an MBA sort of permeated from me setting up my independent practice. Once I set up my practice, I started engaging more with young founders and entrepreneurs. And because my intention was to help founders and entrepreneurs grow, it required me to deep dive into business and operations with them. I had to understand how they run their businesses, so I had to develop an understanding of business models. I needed to understand how they generate revenue and how they spend that money. I needed to develop an understanding of both accounting and corporate finance, and then I needed to understand what their next step would be.

One example I can give is that I was advising a blockchain company back in 2021, and they wanted to develop a very unique synthetic trading portal on the blockchain. There was nothing similar like that existing either in India or anywhere else that we could find. We needed to create a structure that would comply with whichever laws were applicable in India because there was nothing that uniquely identified how this business would work.

Helping that founder create a regulatory-compliant business model made me realize that there is a lot more value that lawyers can bring to companies and to founders because of our unique understanding of how regulations work and how they are applied, and because of our understanding of how impact and value can be created, having seen other founders achieve that. We can effectively leverage all of that exposure and bring value to founders not just from a legal perspective but also from a business perspective.

All of these things combined started making me think about how I could add more value to these founders, to my clients. I realized that yes, I do have some form of knowledge or experience, but that was all secondhand because it was gained through interacting with C-Suite level executives or founders. There was nothing concrete I could rely on to advise these founders. That is when I started researching more about how MBA programs work, the value-add that someone like me could get, and how I could enhance and leverage the experiences I had in my past.

That effectively started the journey and the momentum toward giving the GMAT, identifying INSEAD as a potential opportunity, applying for INSEAD, and then getting through. So that’s how that trajectory went.

In terms of preparing specifically for GMAT, I can condense it very quickly. Yes, there is a lot of unlearning that needs to happen. You are absolutely right. There is a lot of effort required to understand how to solve problems. The idea is, as Indian students, many of us have a predictable set path in which we solve problems, whether quantitative or verbal. But the GMAT is one exam where the strategy is to find whatever way works to arrive at the correct answer.

This is key in a service industry that relies on a lot of data that must be analyzed, synthesized, and then communicated to a client in a manner the client understands. The GMAT is effectively what you learn in an MBA program, condensed, and ensures that you have that knowledge ready so that you are not lagging behind in an MBA.

So there was a lot of unlearning and a lot of relearning in terms of how to strategically and tactically approach specific questions, and a lot of practice was needed. I think what people forget is that it is not about how much you know for the GMAT but about how much you have practiced in that kind of environment because it is a very intense examination.

For example, when I was giving the exam, there were COVID regulations for the admission centers. We had to give the exam in a room with our masks on. We could not take our masks off at all, and we did not have access to anything, including water. It was very strenuous because you are stressed about the exam, there is a timer running, you have to manage your time, you have to ensure that you answer every question, and if you skip a question, you cannot go back.

So there are many permutations and combinations outside of just pure knowledge. It requires a lot of practice simulated in an exam environment. I think what worked for me was that I pushed myself to simulate that exam environment regularly. And of course, I had the benefit that, since it was my own practice, I could identify time slots every day for practice. But I think being disciplined and serious about what you need to do is the simplest way to achieve a good GMAT score.

Wow! With your independent practice, you also managed to crack this challenging exam. Considering that you pursued your MBA during the COVID-19 period, a time when many perspectives on management evolved, how did this new understanding of management help you build a stronger practice after completing the course compared to the understanding you had before it? You must have done some comparative analysis on this if you don’t mind sharing, what were your key takeaways?

 That’s absolutely the perfect question because that is the one question I ask a lot of potential applicants who are in the legal field who want to do an MBA.

That’s the one point I ask them to ask yourself, why are you doing this? What do you hope to gain out of this? Because an MBA is very customized, I would say. It’s a very bespoke course.  Because you’ll get a lot of information and a lot of that information is probably available at 100th of the cost. The question is, what do you want to derive out of that experience?  So I can say personally for me, there were a few factors that were very critical, which I feel I can leverage today after having completed. The first and foremost, and this goes well for most international MBAs, is the network. 

At INSEAD, I think there is a rule that a particular nationality cannot be represented by more than 11 or 12% of the cohort. So it is by rule that you will be interacting with people from a variety of different geographies, different backgrounds, different experiences, and you are forced to be in that situation.

When I say forced, it’s by nature of the groups that are set, the sections that are created. You are constantly interacting with people whom you probably may not have anything in connection with prima facie. Like in my group, you would not have another Indian and you would not have another lawyer. You would have people from completely different backgrounds, and I think that helps in two ways.

Number one, after you graduate, your alumni network is probably one of the strongest in the world. So you can basically look at the alumni directory and you’ll find the who’s who of any industry. So you know, if you are stuck somewhere or you need assistance somewhere, you have an alumni base to rely on and it’s one of the strongest components of INSEAD. Second, you also develop an understanding of how different perceptions can approach different problems. Because when you are given a problem as a group,  as an analytical Indian lawyer, I might solve it in path A.  Someone who works in the renewable energy industries who’s only worked on offshore drilling, they look at that in another path. Someone who’s worked in hardcore finance, hedge fund, or investment banking, they look at that same problem maybe in my direction, but a different path.  Someone who’s an army vet, a Marine operator, they will look at it differently. So when you are interacting with so many different people trying to solve a very similar problem.

You start getting an understanding of how different people think and what their rationale is for them. And when I look back, that helps me also tackle challenges that my clients face in different ways in which I would’ve never thought, because unfortunately, a lot of lawyers are caught in this bubble of thinking in a very pedantic and a very straight cut method.

 That usually doesn’t happen in an MBA because you are dealt with problems that span different industries and therefore you have to rely on different ways of thinking. So the mental models, the thought processes, the approach, I think that also helps you understand problems from different lenses.  And the last, and another important takeaway for me was how do you value the output more than the process? Because ultimately as a service provider, whether you’re a consultant, whether you’re a banker, whether you’re a lawyer, ultimately your goal is to resolve challenges and solve issues for your clients and do it in a way that they can trust you with their work going on. There’s a very important saying that one of the professors said that you know that you’re a good service provider when your client calls you up for help that is outside your core service. For example, if a client calls you up and says, Hey, Aditya, can you tell me the name of a good pediatric surgeon in Delhi?  That means they trust you for things even outside your core competence.  And how do you develop that trust is what we learned. How do you build processes that help you create that engine that gives them what they want? 

So that was my takeaway, and that’s what’s helping me optimize and make my practice more efficient. More driven towards solutions rather than process, which may become an obstacle for client service

The kind of trust your clients place in you is truly inspiring. It seems this trust stems not only from your legal expertise but also from your problem-solving approach, even beyond traditional legal boundaries. Is this the same trust that has enabled you to handle multi-million-dollar, high-stakes deals? Could you share a story of a particularly complex transaction or negotiation where your combined understanding of law and management helped you find a solution that others might have struggled with?

 Sure. So I think the first one, in terms of a complex deal.  I think the most complex deal that I did was one of the biggest deals that I did in my independent practice. It was an acquisition of a logistics company from a listed company.

So we were acting for the acquirers. And safe to say that I had gained the trust of my clients to the extent that they would trust me with almost 150 crore rupee deal. In the listed company space, and what I realized later was this was going to be an uphill challenge because unlike any other deal that I had done even in my law firm career, this one required me to have a strong understanding of not just basics of M&A and transactional law, but also accounting.

About how business operations in this industry were, because I had to sit with the client and understand the implications of what the negotiations were going to be, because ultimately those were to be reflected in the transaction document. So having that kind of interaction first with business, then with finance, then trying to understand how those interplay with the legal clauses.

Then, drafting those clauses and then negotiating with a company that has probably a battery of lawyers that are assisting them because they’re a listed company.  So that was very, very challenging, and it was complex transactions, primarily because there were a lot of payment driven issues because it was effectively a carve out of the listed company.

They were carving out a business and we were acquiring that business. So how do you create that delineation from now this belongs to us and whatever remains is yours. How the accounting for that is going to be done. And even if there is an agreement on how it’s going to be done in practice, ultimately it’s my job to put it on paper.

 So doing that, and this was before my MBA. So I did not even have that kind of a formal understanding of how finance and accounting work.  I had a bare bones understanding back then,  but it forced me to continuously interact with my client and understand what it is that they’re looking for.

And I think this is the biggest learning I can give to anyone who’s advising clients on M&A.  Understand what your client wants out of this transaction. Because not every deal is the same. People have different expectations from that transaction. And your job as a counsel and an advisor is to understand what that requirement is and then put it on paper to either ensure it happens or to protect so that it doesn’t get taken away.

So that deal for me was very challenging because I did not have any assistant, I had another senior lawyer who was working with me. But I needed to understand tax, accounting, employment, labor, and transactional work all on my own. So that was challenging, but very rewarding because we ended up having a very successful team.

To your second point about interesting negotiations,  very interestingly, after my MBA, one of the deals that I had negotiated was against my earlier firm where I negotiated with one of the lawyers who I mentored back in the firm, and having that kind of interaction with him, trying to recall and leverage all the business side elements of what I wanted to protect for my client and interacting with him on that point was a very good learning for me.

And it was a very, I would say, smooth process because.  I was very proud of the fact that he also came at me with very logical arguments. And this is another very important point because if this is going out to other lawyers who are in this profession, one thing again that you have to realize is please, whatever arguments you’re making in a negotiation, number one, be very well prepared with what you have to say, why you are asking for what you’re asking.

And anticipate what the counterparty might say, putting yourself in their position.  Because a lot of time, the only argument you’re giving is, this is market standard. This is what we want. Without giving a rationale, then you’re effectively  moving yourself back from the negotiation table and you’re making it break down.

So another very important aspect that I learned, especially for negotiations, is that you really need to put in a lot of effort, a lot of work to support what you are saying, why you are saying and why it makes sense. Because at the end of the day, your job is to ensure that there is a solution that works for everyone.

You cannot drum things down on the other side unless of course you have leverage. But most times when parties are on an equal footing, you need to come with solid arguments, but also help the other side understand. Look, this works for me and it also works for you because A, B, C, and what you are suggesting doesn’t work because of D, E, F.

So when you give rationale, it is very difficult for the human brain to immediately say no. It makes them think. And once you’re making someone think that, that means you’re moving ahead. So that’s a negotiation strategy that I deployed amongst the other things that I learned. But one thing that I felt very happy about was I could see that what I had learned almost entirely was being replicated by someone who  I basically helped and who’s now a very accomplished lawyer in his own right.

So I think it was a good negotiation, and that’s the reason why I remember it so well.

Wow! The way you approach challenges using both legal expertise and analytical skills developed through your MBA is fascinating. How has this combination helped you attract clients like startup founders seeking fundraising and structuring advice? Since law itself demands logical thinking, how did you transition from initially not being inclined toward corporate law to strategically building your expertise in this field? What steps did you take to train yourself to handle these challenges analytically and logically?

I read a lot. The simplest answer is I read a lot. I put myself in situations where I was forced to be the one doing the grunt work. One example I can recall from the first firm I worked at was that we had one of the best corporate law libraries I can think of. There were books on M&A and transactions that I don’t think many law firms in India would have had access to.

When I had access to that library and to some of the best corporate lawyers in the country, I was as inquisitive as a young lawyer could be. I would always read up on different transactions. I would read about how contracts are framed. I would read about best practices in the United States or the United Kingdom. I would read case laws during my off time. I would review transaction documents signed by the firm 10 or even 15 years ago.

So, once I became interested in the business of transaction law—or any subject for that matter—it was always about putting myself in a situation where I could learn whatever I wanted to know about it. I would find resources, read, and absorb as much as I could. And now, this has become 10 times easier because all research often requires is a simple prompt. I think research has become easier, but at the end of the day, it’s about reading the full article or the complete chapter of a book and understanding it deeply.

For me, developing this analytical skillset has always been through reading a lot and talking to a lot of lawyers. Whenever I was on a deal with someone who did things I didn’t understand, I would never hesitate to ask them, “Why did you say that? What was the point you were making in this argument? Why was this so important?” You’d be surprised at how many senior lawyers genuinely appreciate junior lawyers coming up and asking such questions.

I would urge a lot of lawyers, especially those in law firms, to never hesitate in approaching your senior associate or principal associate and asking, “Why is this happening?” This is also a very important point for potential leaders. Whether you are becoming a senior associate, a principal associate, or a partner, whenever you are delegating work, it is imperative that you explain why you are doing it and what you are expecting from the team. This not only enhances their comprehension of the problem but also ensures that they remain focused on the outcome.

For me, developing that thought process was both as a learner and as someone who mentored young lawyers and interns. Constantly engaging in that way made it second nature to me. Whenever a problem statement comes before me, I can immediately identify the key aspects—the fact pattern, the trigger points, and the interests that the client needs addressed.

One of the first things I do when I take on a mandate is to talk to the client and understand what a successful outcome looks like for them. This is something I find many lawyers overlook. Even before my MBA, I always focused on this, but after my MBA, I learned that a successful advisor not only understands what the client needs but also helps the client define what they truly want. Sometimes clients are not equipped to frame their needs clearly. It is your job to guide them—to be like Gandalf for them, mentoring and advising them in a way that helps them discover the most viable solution.

It’s all about constant interaction, continuous updating of knowledge, and being hungry to understand things. In every form of communication—whether on WhatsApp, email, or in conversations with juniors or seniors—you must have clarity in what you are saying and why you are saying it.

Over time, it all becomes second nature. At least, that’s what has happened to me.

Being an avid reader and someone who has never hesitated to question and learn from seniors, how has this curiosity shaped you into an approachable mentor? You’ve guided many aspiring legal professionals, how does it feel to see your mentees succeed, and what key advice or guiding principles do you usually share with them that our learners could benefit from?

I’m very passionate about this, so I’d love to talk more about this. One, how I started, again, my inquisitive nature always made me question everything. And it was not just in a law firm; it was even at home. Why is this the way? Why is that the way? And because I had a background in science, it was always that questioning of why something happens.

Unless you understand the why, you’re never going to understand the process itself. So you need to know why something happens. There has to be a reason behind it. And that prompted me to be very inquisitive. Based on that, I spoke to a lot of people. Sometimes I would be shooed away, but a lot of times I would be given a patient ear.

And also, in a way, because I was instrumental in helping form the internship strategy at one of my firms, it made me interact with a lot of interns. Throughout that journey, I realized that interns also come to a law firm with the expectation of learning. They are not just there as law students who are expected to do a lot of grunt work or research work; they also have an expectation from the law firm. I learned that while interning in some of the best law firms in the country, a couple of them in fact, and there I got a sense of understanding what work goes on in a law firm.

But there is also that learning that happens from some of the senior lawyers, which is absolutely incomparable because they know how things work in practice. What you are studying in law school is a lot of academic knowledge. So it was my role that because I got that, I had to give it forward, and I enjoyed doing that.

I enjoyed speaking with interns one-on-one throughout my time in all the law firms that I worked with, and even now. Now the question is, how do I do it? Again, it’s a very similar way to how I work with clients. My first question to a lot of them is, I need to understand why are you here? Why are we talking?

What is it that you hope to achieve out of this? There are people who come asking me for advice on how to manage toxicity in the workplace, which is unfortunately a very important topic but is very prevalent. A lot of people ask, I want to shift from a law firm to in-house. How do I do that?

The first question I ask is why? What’s problematic in that law firm? What is it that you have identified that you cannot work for? If someone asks me, okay, I’m a lawyer who’s doing disputes, I want to go do an MBA, my first question is why? Have you asked yourself why you want to do this? Is it the money? Do you want to do law, or do you want to do law with that understanding?

So the way I talk to students, mentors, and young lawyers is first I ask them what their motivations are. So it’s sort of like helping them drill down in their own mind what it is that they have to speak about when they come to me. And my role is mostly to help them realize what it is that they want and then give them my understanding with a very clear caveat.

I am not a counselor. I am not a career guide, and I’m not, let’s say, an MBA coach. I can only tell you what worked for me, and there is nothing to say that what worked for me will work for you. So please take what I say with a pinch of salt. But what I can tell you are the principles that I applied; they are very likely to probably be relevant in your field because the principles are very straightforward.

Have clarity of thought, understand the motivation behind any action, whether it’s speech or whether it’s written. Understand the implications or have an idea of what the implications of those actions would be, and then if you’re okay with the implications, go achieve that outcome in a strategic manner.

Understand what it is that you want to do and then lay out a plan of action. Don’t just go headfirst into a situation and say, I’ll take things as they come, because that’s inefficient. One thing I keep telling people is law requires you to be efficient because at any point in time, you’re juggling five things.

So if you’re not efficient, you are bound to drop the ball. And the best way to not drop it is to have some sort of structure, some sort of, I would say in a crude sense, an SOP. If a project comes, then I do A, B, C. If X happens, then Y is the outcome. While it takes time, the moment it gets crystallized, it becomes a very standard operating process for anyone.

It then just becomes like a program. Once something comes, you know the path that you have to follow. So your brain is then only focused on exactly the substance, not the administrative process around it. And that helps a lot of people realize their own value, their own way of working. Some people work visually, some people work through reading.

Some are more analytical than others, but then they find what it truly is that they want, and that’s when it’s more of a eureka moment for some of them. Obviously not everyone has that, but that’s my path. It’s not spoon-feeding. It is effectively helping them understand who they are, what it is that they want, and how they can do that.

I can help you create a path to it, but what you want to do, that’s up to you. And then it applies everywhere, whether it’s professional or personal, whether it’s within the law or outside the law.

Navigating such a demanding career, how do you maintain a balance between mental and physical health, especially when long hours and tight deadlines are involved? What strategies have worked for you to stay productive without burning out? Additionally, looking ahead, what are your plans for the next few years in terms of your career and practice, especially after transitioning from law to also pursuing an MBA?

I can speak for hours because that is such an important aspect that I’ve realized. Unfortunately, a bit later in my professional life, but better late than never in my view. So I cannot stress enough how important managing your mental health and physical health is, especially in a career like law.

I don’t think I need to go into the details of why it’s important. I think it is now an absolute truth that you need to maintain every aspect of your body, whether it’s the physical body or the mental body. You have to, if you want to lead a life that you are content with. There is no question about it.

And I think that’s pretty much a given. How to do that is a major point. One thing I felt in my own life, even without having maybe the knowledge that I do today, is I could take care of my physical health because I wanted to. Right from the day I started working, in fact, a year before I started working, I made sure that I made it a habit to do some form of physical workout every single week, maybe four to six times continuously. Once it became a habit for me for, let’s say, over a month or two months, if I remember correctly, then it became an indispensable part of my daily routine, and I think that’s what’s most crucial. Once you make something a part of your routine, then it becomes something that you don’t need to think about.

Yes, there is that initial inertia that prevents you from doing things that you know are important. That’s where actual growth is. If you push yourself through for a short period of time, once it becomes part of the routine, in fact, you feel the other way. There was this period of time when I was undergoing some physical issues where I couldn’t go to the gym, and I genuinely felt that I was missing out on something during the day because it feels that once I work out, once I come back to work, I feel motivated and invigorated. A physical workout of any kind, whether it’s running, walking, yoga, going to the gym, swimming, any form of physical exercise that elevates your heart rate and makes you sweat a little bit, is, I think, very crucial not just for your physical health, but it also has an impact on mental health.

And when it comes to mental health, there is this saying that everyone should meditate for 20 minutes a day, except when you are really busy and stressed. In that case, you have to meditate for 40 minutes a day. What people don’t realize is the value in that statement is so deep that unless you do it, you will not realize it.

Meditation doesn’t mean that you have to go to a particular place; if that works for you, great. But meditation is effectively calming your thoughts. It’s not about having no thoughts, but mindful meditation. The one that I follow is just having comfort in knowing that whatever you are thinking is okay, and you let it pass without judgment.

Simply put, giving yourself 15 to 20 minutes a day, anytime during the day, where there is calm, where you are not worried about the next message, the next meeting, or a call that’s supposed to happen. The impact that that period of calmness has on your day, and if you do it over a period of time in your life in general, really helps you also become a better lawyer.

I’ll give you an example. There are a lot of times in a lawyer’s life when, during negotiations, things can get very heated, and I have seen lawyers lose their cool in conversations. One thing I felt after I started meditating is that my reaction to a lot of unnecessary verbiage that’s thrown in a negotiation is much lower.

I don’t react impulsively anymore, and what that does is it not only shows that you are the bigger person when you are keeping your calm while the other person might be shouting, but it also shows your client that you are confident about the path that you’re following. Ultimately, if your client sees that confidence in you, then that means you’re doing something right as his or her advisor.

So it’s not just about feeling good about yourself. All of these things actually also help you become a better lawyer as well. It helps you deal with the stresses that the life of a lawyer will inevitably throw at you. It is a given that a lawyer’s life will have stress. There is no escaping that.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded, or they’re probably practicing law in a way I have never seen. But stress is effectively in the nature of the legal career, and the only way is, you don’t wish for stress to go away, you learn to deal with it, and you learn to manage it. One of the best ways to manage it for me turns out to be meditation.

So I think it is absolutely critical.

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