Author: SuperLawyerTeam

DARSHAN KULKARNI, PRINCIPAL ATTORNEY AT KULKARNI LAW FIRM, ON BEING A LAWYER, WRITER, PODCAST HOST AND A 6TH GENERATION PHARMACIST
This interview has been published by Maaz Akhtar Hashmi and The SuperLawyer Team. The Interview was taken by Priyanka Cholera.

Being a 6th Generation Pharmacist, a lawyer, writer and podcast host. How has this journey been for you?

I lived in India for the first half of my life and pursued my higher secondary education from St. Xaviers University and secondary school from Green Lawns. Post that, I went to the US and pursued community college at the age of 18, whereby I completed 2 years of community college in 1 year by completing the requirement of 60 credits. I simultaneously applied to Pharmacy and Business School but ended up going to pharmacy school. While pursuing my education, I also handled 14 jobs simultaneously, so I have done everything from working as a pharmacy technician to creating the website for the social science department at my university to running the local domain for my university.

I completed my Doctor of Pharmacy degree at the age of 22 and then went back to get my Juris Doctor degree at 25. I also completed my Masters in Quality Assurance/ Regulatory Affairs while simultaneously clerking for a Federal Court Judge, the Hon. Clifford Scott Greene, in the Eastern District, Pennsylvania. He was an absolutely wonderful judge from whom I learned a lot about legal nuances. During this time, I realized that I had a creative and business side and got interested in podcasting while juggling between being a pharmacist and a lawyer. Early in my career, I was the corporate counsel for a pharmaceutical company based out of Edison, New Jersey. I also wrote a couple of book chapters and taught at the University of Sciences, where I taught Health Law, Bioethics, Drug Advertising, and Regulatory Documents. I have also guest lectured at the University of Colorado, Drexel School of Engineering, Temple School of Pharmacy, Temple Law, the University of Florida and the University of Southern California. I look forward to teaching for the Law department of Drexel University pretty soon. I have also been the Chair of the Life Sciences interest group for the American Bar Association. My journey has been exciting and has been led with the purpose to learn as many things as possible.

You decided to pursue J.D. at Temple University after having hands-on experience in practising pharmacy at few of the most reputable institutes in the world such as Albert Einstein Medical Center and John Hopkins University as an instructor on Pharmacology and Toxicology. Considering the differences between law and pharmacy, did you face any impediments while transitioning from two very unrelated disputes?

To address your question, you are referring to two eras of my life: the pre-pharmacy one and the pharmacy one. In my pre-pharmacy career, I taught at Hopkins in their Centre for Talented Youth program. When I was teaching them, I was 20 years old, and my intern was 3 years older than me. At Einstein Medical Centre, it was my first experience as a hospital pharmacist, and I learnt a lot about how hospitals work. I spent over 10 years working at the Thomas Jefferson Hospital and mainly worked in pharmacy settings.

To answer your question on how I transitioned to law, I believe that all businesses run on three aspects: technical, legal, and business. As a 6th generation pharmacist and having done pharmacy, I understood the technical aspects. Having studied accounts in India, I understood the business aspect; while completing my JD in law, I also started understanding the legal aspects and got a holistic view of the profession.

Post law school, you worked as a Clerk to the Honourable Clifford Scott Green who was one of the most well-regarded judges in the Eastern Pennsylvania district. Please tell us about the experience of working under a federal judge, who had popularly presided over a 26-year old case that ended institutional racism in the Pennsylvania State Police?

The Judge I worked for was incredibly smart and taught me a lot. He taught me the virtue of patience. As a youngster, I was always curious to know many things. At the same time, he taught me to focus on what question I was trying to answer, which helped me understand that we focus intently on the answer most of the time rather than focusing our energy on the question.

Your firm, Kulkarni Law Firm, focuses on helping U.S. Food & Drug Administration (FDA)-regulated companies successfully promote their products. From clinical trials, advertising and marketing, to drug dispensing. Can you throw some light on how Kulkarni Law Firm is an epitome of a new age industry aimed at creating a positive impact at large in the pharma marketing space?

What makes things work for us is that I look at everything from a patient-centric viewpoint. I stand by the philosophy that in the end, it’s about helping the patient, and if you aren’t helping the patient then you really haven’t achieved anything. My idea is never to think about how we can “get past” the FDA, but I believe we have met the spirit of the law and hence in the process, we help the patients. So, the answer in simpler terms would be I try to teach companies to meet compliance requirements of the FDA through regulatory strategies so that in the end, the patient’s goals can be met.

You work on U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) regulatory compliance. You have also been involved as a member of various State Bar Associations. What are the existing system loopholes in the over-regulated Pharma industry of the US, that you are aiming to address through your work to promote public health?

I believe that conversations about public health must be held in a way to educate patients. A simple example would be podcasting or hosting a session on Instagram whereby you educate the consumer as to why they must take charge of their own health and steps to undertake such measures. This will help in understanding things from a patient-centric view. I use non-traditional means to reach out to people. I believe in digitally educating people because people who rely on their doctors completely don’t have any other means to find out what they or their loved ones are consuming. Hence, you won’t realize the importance of having these conversations on a virtual platform unless you lose someone to a bad prescription or medicines.

The first episode of Darshan Talks dates back to July 2019, titled “Art of the Possible”. The latest episode is on Pharma marketers embracing electronic Continuing Medical Education and its scope post covid, all of these topics are extremely engaging and provide real-life insights on otherwise dreaded topics. How has your journey been for the past 2 years? If you could invite any guest from the legal or pharma world, who would it be?

It hasn’t been difficult to find guests because I often talk to my friends, and believe me, I have a guest list completely chalked three months into the future into January. On-boarding guests for me has not been difficult as I end up using my network. Once they have done the podcast with me, I call them again post 2-3 months and hence I have a rotating list which gives me the added advantage of not having to come up with new guests all the time. I also try to reach out to people interested in life sciences. When I approach them, I don’t decide on a topic or anything but try and convince them to have a conversation, making the guest feel comfortable, allowing me to ask as many questions as possible. This has largely been my secret to success, so I have guests coming back because all I ask for is a simple conversation with no agenda in mind.

In response to the need for the COVID-19 vaccine, multiple pharmaceutical companies ventured with institutes and universities to develop effective vaccines. Do you think in the 21st century, we could have handled this better?

I believe that with reference to the pandemic, we had plans, but we did not execute them correctly. We could have definitely made better plans, but I also know that people working at the highest levels tried their best. I also believe that we executed well by introducing a vaccine within a year. Tons of research have gone into the same, and for the people who are resisting the vaccine as it is still in the trial stage, I must say that a lot of research has gone into the same, and we are bouncing back well.

You have penned several articles and research papers on thoroughly incorporating medical science with technology, whether it’s A.I. or telemedicine, cannabis from an expert’s viewpoint and spreading awareness among the masses. What are the trends you expect to be emerging in the pharma industry in the US and across the globe?

I believe that a couple of different things are going to happen. Though the move towards the digital space will not stop, digital companies will need to adapt to healthcare instead of looking to “disrupt” it. An excellent example of this would be Apple announcing to close its healthcare division as it is a space they don’t want to be a part of. So instead of technology companies leading the way in Pharma, Pharma companies will actually teach technology companies how it is done. The same will happen in the next five years when these companies will come back and consolidate their efforts. I also believe that these companies will build mini-projects in the short term and then reconsolidate.

Another thing we will see a lot of is biohacking, where people who have completed their PhDs or their Masters degrees are busy with their research work. This seems to be a growing area whereby they are hacking themselves by putting chips in their bodies rather than hacking computers.

Stem cell research may also grow over the years, where people are trying to cure various diseases such as Parkinson’s or cancer. While the question can be answered in a thousand ways because people’s minds plunge towards multiple areas, the next 20 years will be extremely interesting to find answers to the questions.

What would be your advice to anyone who aims to educate people on pharmacies through digital content?

My first advice would be to do it. But on a more serious note, I would push people to double-check their sources as I have encountered many people who give legal and financial advice without possessing the required knowledge. The issue is not whether one can learn, but the issue is primarily what one is learning. Another thing that exists inside every individual is bias. We were taught in law school that anyone who says I don’t have a bias is incorrect because our circumstances and situations define our bias. People interested in gathering limited knowledge scares me as they want to play in the safe zone. Hence the answer would be to educate by knowing all the facts and double-checking the same. Also, with respect to bias, it would be to either address it or learn from it. If you go on to ignore your bias, it will not benefit you in the long run.

In one of your interviews you have mentioned, Google is one of your favourite companies for their desire to innovate. As the Principal Attorney at Kulkarni Law Firm, how do you encourage innovation and personal growth for your team?

One of the primary ways I instil innovation is to encourage people working with me to work with other people. This helps people understand other people and guides them about different working styles and different methods. Subject to confidentiality requirements, if you can deliver on the work given to you by me, I would never stop you from working with whoever you feel like.

What would be your advice to all the people who want to venture into various areas of practice? In your words for people who think about (medical drugs), wonder about devices and obsess about pharmacy?

I believe that individuals should do what they feel and should venture into something which is their calling. People in life should find their Ikigai or Junoon, as they call it in Hindi. If you have heard the song “who’s stopping you”, it really speaks to me. So, if mental health is your purpose, go study about it. The world must not tell you what to do; you should do as you feel like. As in movies and songs, you are restricting yourself from doing what you feel like by blaming some higher power, which is just an excuse. I said before, do as you feel like and on your terms – as long as you are willing to live with the consequences.

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October 14, 2021
ANSHUMAN MOZUMDAR, PARTNER AT L&L PARTNERS (FORMERLY LUTHRA & LUTHRA LAW OFFICES), SHARES HIS EXPERIENCE OF CHOOSING LAW AND GETTING THROUGH LAW SCHOOL, BEING AN INTROVERT IN A PROFESSION THAT IS OFTEN PERCEIVED TO BE FOR EXTROVERTS AND THE IMPORTANCE OF EMPATHY AND PURSUING YOUR INTERESTS
This interview has been published by Maaz Akhtar Hashmi and The SuperLawyer Team. The Interview was taken by Priyanka Cholera.

How would you define the term SuperLawyer? What does the word represent to you?

I wasn’t initially comfortable with the fact that I am being interviewed as a “SuperLawyer”. I don’t think that I have achieved something that is “SuperLawyer” worthy. Most of us will have work lives spanning for 35-40 years. Even after 10 years, I feel that I have barely scratched the surface and have a long way to go. I treat my profession as a component of my life (no offence to those who think of themselves as a lawyer 24×7, 365 days a year). Possibly, legal luminaries who have created an impact on the society or fellow lawyers are more suited to such titles.

Having said that, I do believe that there is a journey that is unique to every individual. I have mine too. My journey as a law student and a professional has been fulfilling and has had its own share of ups and downs. I feel that by narrating my journey and discussing my struggles at a personal and professional level, I may be of help to someone who is experiencing something similar or is looking for guidance or simply wants an assurance that they are on the right path.

Do you feel serendipity played a factor in your decision to pursue a career in law? On the other hand, did engineering not seem like a better fit for you as a science student?

I do feel that serendipity played a role in my decision to pursue law. While I must say that my decision worked out well, I didn’t really know what I was aiming to pursue in my professional life at the time of getting into college.

I don’t have a spectacular backstory on how I decided to pursue law. It wasn’t the case that I felt inspired after reading some book, or meeting a luminary in the field of law, or experiencing some event or tragedy. I finished school from St. Xavier’s Collegiate School, Kolkata, in 2006. In those days, the general trend amongst middle-class family kids with a science background was to pursue engineering or medical. The 5-year integrated LLB wasn’t as prevalent a choice amongst students as it is today. Thankfully, students these days are a lot more aware of other professions (including law) due to the outreach of the internet and the work done by organisations such as Lawsikho.

My initial goal was to pursue engineering and get into a top IIT. Unfortunately, my preparations took a hit when I contracted a severe case of typhoid in the 12th standard. As expected, my scores in the entrance exams weren’t adequate to secure a seat in a top engineering college. However, I didn’t want to drop a year to prepare for the next year’s entrance exams. My backup plan was to get into a reputed college and pursue an alternative stream that had good job prospects. Unfortunately (like most middle-class family kids), my decisions were driven more with the end objective of securing a decently paying job rather than choosing something which really appealed to me.

I had heard of the 5-year integrated LLB since NLS and NALSAR were growing in popularity and NUJS was coming up the ranks. The prospect of studying at home (at NUJS) also played a part in me deciding to appear for its entrance exam. Each law university had its own entrance exam in those days. I briefly took entrance exam coaching from a private tutor and went through some of the guidebooks. While I didn’t have much idea about NLU Jodhpur, I decided to appear for its entrance exam to practice for the NLS exam scheduled to be held a couple of days after the NLU Jodhpur exam.

I got through NLU Jodhpur and only managed to get on the waitlist of a few other NLUs. Though I wasn’t initially thrilled with the outcome, speaking to some of my teachers and school seniors allayed my concerns. NLU Jodhpur was offering an integrated B. Sc. LL.B. degree, which appealed to my science background, as well. My relatives were surprised when I told them that I was going to Rajasthan to study law. My family had to fend questions such as “why law?” and “why Jodhpur?”. While these comments created some initial doubts in my mind, I, fortunately, chose to ignore them.

How was your law school experience? Being an introvert, did you find it challenging to get through law school? How did you overcome the initial mental barriers linked with the preconception that “introverts aren’t best suited for a legal career”?

NLU Jodhpur’s first batch had just graduated the year before. In those days, the NLU campus wasn’t the scenic lush green campus with flower beds and so many buildings that you see today. When I stood in front of the college gate for the first time, I remember seeing vast expanses of sand and a few buildings in the middle of it. That sight was quite intimidating for a kid who had never been to a boarding school and had just left the comforts of a highly insulated middle-class environment in a city like Kolkata. My immediate reaction was to look at my father and wonder what I had done and where I had landed.

My law school journey wasn’t a joyride as it may have been for some others. Some individuals adjust to a new environment a lot faster than others. It won’t be incorrect to say that I took about three out of my five years to fully adjust to a new city and college and “figure things out” (probably the longest amongst my batchmates). I had my own set of struggles with adjusting to a new place and life in a residential university. While I eventually learnt to figure these issues out, I realised that it is a process of self-discovery that everyone has to go through at their own pace – and there are no prizes for figuring things out sooner. In the process, it is easy to fall prey to frustration and agony if you feel that you are unable to adapt quickly or are unclear on your future goals.

I am an introvert. I didn’t really know what it really meant to be one until a couple of years earlier when I took a Myers Briggs personality test. It changed the way I perceive myself and helped me understand myself better. Introverts are often passed off as “shy” or “socially awkward” in our society. I used to feel like a fish out of water in college. I could not explain why I didn’t feel the urge to hang out with people more often (even with a familiar bunch of people) or was not very outspoken in my surroundings. Being an introvert does make the process of adjusting to your surroundings difficult. But I promise you – things get better with time.

Good public speaking skills is an added advantage to every lawyer. However, it doesn’t mean that students who have initial troubles in developing these qualities cannot succeed in the legal profession. This is a misconception largely owed to how the legal profession is portrayed in movies and pop culture. I have come a long way since my initial years of college in terms of the manner in which I conduct myself. While I had my share of low points during my college and professional life, I feel that preparing well and visualizing my professional conversations made me a more confident individual. Finding my interests outside studies/work, pursuing co-curricular activities and learning new things unrelated to work also helped me immensely. At a more personal level, learning to do things without expectations and practising philanthropy (by conduct and not just economically) helped me find inner peace and gain more positivity. I also had some good mentors and teachers who helped me throughout my personal and professional journey.

In retrospect, how would you describe your initial years at Luthra? Being a young lawyer, how did you balance work and personal commitments?

I did several internships while in college and wrote publications in order to make my CV more compelling. For me, everything I did was about trying to get a decent job at the end of law school and find financial stability. Unknowingly, I became a part of the rat race without actually learning how to apply the knowledge in practice. It was only when I joined a law firm that I realized that this was not even the tip of the iceberg. You have to unlearn and relearn everything that you have learnt in law school, from a fresh perspective, once you join the profession. Of course, that does not take away the basic fundamentals of laws that you learn in law school – which are extremely important for any professional.

I joined a private equity and M&A team at Luthra. When I joined, we were a team of four. Within 6 to 7 months, two colleagues (including a senior) left the firm. All of a sudden, I was reporting to the partner directly and handling client-facing work. The next year, our team recruited two more junior colleagues. I was given the responsibility of mentoring them even though I was only a first-year associate.

The advantage of this set-up was that I wasn’t a mere cog in the wheel and was fully aware of what was happening on a transaction. I was also shouldering administrative duties and playing a managerial role while working with my junior colleagues. At times, junior associates who are a part of larger teams may lose sight of the main objective of an assignment because they aren’t being tasked with the execution of the assignment from the beginning to the end. Hence, even though I was part of a small team, I was getting direct exposure to big transactions. There was one instance where I was given a document to negotiate when I didn’t have any prior experience with negotiation. My partner encouraged me to list out the discussion points and practice what I was going to say before him prior to the negotiation. This experience was definitely a turning point in my career and made me a more confident individual. Despite these positives, there were some drawbacks and sacrifices of working in such a set-up, such as working long hours, working on weekends, losing out on social life or not being able to pursue interests outside work.

We are looking a decade back, from being interviewed for Luthra during the campus placements and to the firm as a partner. How has this journey been for you?

My professional journey has been fulfilling and has changed me for the better at a personal level. I have learnt to identify my strengths and translate the same into my work product. My analytical skills have greatly increased. I am also able to contribute to commercial aspects of a transaction, a quality that my clients appreciate. As I mentioned earlier, learning to swim at the deep end of the pool really helped me get early first-hand experience of the skill sets required in the field. The downsides were that I didn’t have much of a life outside the office in my growth years – hence my social life suffered. Whenever someone asks me about how it is to work in a law firm, I tell them that while the job is rewarding in various ways (including financially), it no doubt has its cons and is a tough one to stick to. For this reason, the rate of attrition in law firms is also quite high, and burnouts are quite common.

While compensation is important, I don’t believe that people stick around in an organisation only for money or out of a sense of loyalty. They have to feel a sense of fulfilment. They have to feel valued and comfortable in the work environment. A firm or a brand name may go to the extent of assuring you of the kind of work you will get or the compensation levels. But it is never the assurance of a great work environment or culture – which is driven largely by the people in the team that you are a part of. It is therefore important for a good leader to possess empathy and good interpersonal skills.

I stuck around at Luthra because of a positive team and office environment. I was given the freedom to grow as a professional. I made some of my closest friends in the firm. My superiors and co-workers have always been approachable enough to discuss work and personal life. I felt that I was levelling up and learning something new. It will be incorrect to say that I didn’t have my fair share of disappointments in my professional journey. Every professional in a law firm is bound to face these moments of doubt when they start questioning whether they want to continue in the firm or not. However, overall, I am grateful for the journey and what I have managed to achieve.

You mentioned that you had to compromise on social life early on in your professional life. Do you believe that socializing today is more about networking than it is about interacting with others?

I don’t think that professional networking can be equated with socializing. I treat networking as part of my job, which may create opportunities for me or my firm in the future. I never paid attention to networking until I started working. Fortunately, people today are a lot more aware of the concept of networking and why it’s essential. In a week, I try to set aside a few hours to make new connections, reconnect with old ones, or read something that a connection has shared on Linkedin. Networking definitely helps every professional, and one should start as early as one can, but I feel that it’s not the most crucial requirement for a law student. Networking is a continuous process. Even if one is not good at networking initially or has started late, one can always catch up.

In your career, you have played a key role in various transactions for brands Burger King, Starbucks Corporation and many more. Is it a milestone to represent big names that also hold a personal value as a consumer for millions? How do you keep the team spirits elevated and make a positive environment to work on high-stakes deals?

No offence to those who feel otherwise, but I feel we corporate lawyers don’t get as many opportunities to make a difference in society as compared to litigation lawyers. While M&A, financing and IPOs form the backbone of a country’s economic activities, I personally feel that a corporate lawyer will not get the same level of satisfaction that a litigation lawyer will get after having successfully filed/argued a PIL or having secured justice for a victim.

But while working on transactions especially involving consumer-facing parties, one does feel special. When I look at a Burger King restaurant or a Starbucks cafe today, it does bring a smile to my face. It is a representation of a tangible result of the work that I did on the transaction and gives more meaning and a sense of purpose to what I do.

As regards your second question, I try to inculcate and build a positive work culture as the leader of my team. I detest toxic work environments and gaslighting. Unfortunately, these are quite common in a lot of workplaces and can be detrimental to a person’s self-esteem and career. People often underestimate the impact that their words can have on somebody. While I understand the need for a person to be strict with their co-workers, bad behaviour cannot be tolerated. Unfortunately, I have heard of or come across individuals in the profession who are impatient, yell at their juniors or send obnoxious emails to them when they make mistakes. I understand that it is not easy to always maintain one’s calm amidst work pressure, but one can’t treat their team in such a way. You have no right to yell at your colleagues, especially when you haven’t made an effort to educate them and explain their shortcomings. That’s your job as a senior or as a leader of the team. A lawyer’s ability to empathize with others is crucial for their growth. Everyone is built differently, has different strengths and weaknesses, and is motivated in different ways – and a team leader needs to identify that.

Congratulations on being in the Forbes 100 Power List of 2020 and securing M&A Deal of the year (Premium) by Asian Legal Business Awards, 2020 (Thomson Reuters). What value do these titles hold on the personal and professional front? Are these a parameter of success or a checkpoint?

I feel that awards do add some value to one’s resume and does create a good impression on a client, especially when they haven’t previously worked with you. I won’t downplay the value of such awards because it does feel good to get recognized. However, they are definitely not a measure of one’s success or quality. I have been on the side of things far too often where I have felt that I haven’t received the recognition that I deserved. So if you haven’t received an award, it doesn’t mean you are not deserving. At the same time, I will never take any such recognition for granted. At the end of the day, what matters is when the client calls and tells me that I have done a great job.

What would you tell your younger self if you could go back in time and advise yourself about the journey ahead?

I would be less harsh and more forgiving on myself. I would take better care of my health and well-being. I would stop putting added pressure on myself to achieve things by a certain time frame. The society sets expectations that we have to achieve certain things by a certain age. We fail to realise that there are no prizes for achieving things earlier in time. I would encourage myself to read more, learn a new language, take more interest in sports and things other than studies as there is a lot more to life than studies and work, and such pursuits help develop positivity.

What are a few qualities you look for in a prospect when making recruiting decisions?

Due to the kind of competition, we have in our country, the interview or selection procedure must be completed in a short period, and it may not always be an accurate representation of a candidate’s quality. Many people don’t realize that the competition is tougher in the field of law because, unlike medical or engineering, where there are more jobs and opportunities in a year, the intake in law firms throughout the country is comparatively quite low.

I personally feel that the interview process is not the most accurate judge of a candidate though we try our best to be as objective as possible in the evaluation. For all that you know, the candidate may be having a difficult day or is generally nervous because of the pressure of trying to create an impression on the interviewer within a short span of time. Unfortunately, we have to assess what is in front of us. Personally, I would prefer to evaluate a candidate during their internship and make recruitment calls on the basis of the same. While I would definitely look into a candidate’s knowledge of basic fundamentals of law, I would also look at their ability to apply legal principles to fact situations or think through a particular problem and provide a solution using logical reasoning, even if they are unaware of the relevant law. The ability to articulate one’s thoughts efficiently also counts. During internships, I generally lookout for candidates who are able to grasp the research problem well, ask the right questions, and provide a concise and well-researched work product. Lastly, I also look for candidates who are hungry to learn and take the initiative or think out of the box to find a solution to a problem.

What do you hope our readers will take away from your experience?

A couple of learnings and self-realisations that have helped me in my journey:
- Not everyone is built the same. You don’t have to be harsh on yourself or question why you behave a certain way. I suggest that everyone takes out a few minutes and attempt to take the Myers -Briggs personality test (online). The feeling of being more connected with yourself is beautiful and empowering.
- Don’t pile up expectations on yourself or beat yourself up for not achieving them. Be easy on yourself and learn to forgive yourself for things. Everyone has their limits and weaknesses, and even I do.
- We don’t realize the impact our words can have on other people. Be kind to others.
- Share and give more. To the extent feasible, talk about your failures so that others who are battling similar issues can have a better life. Be grateful to your mentors by mentoring someone else. And do so without any expectation.
- Never fear asking for help. At times when you feel that no one is around to help you, you will receive help from unexpected quarters. I am a big believer in the quote from Harry Potter – “Help shall be given (at Hogwarts) to those who deserve it“. I promise you that the good you do and the knowledge you impart will come back to help you when you are in need.
- On a more professional note, set your own goals and standards (and set them high) and try to meet them instead of trying to imagine what standards your senior expects of you and trying to chase such standards. This will lend a sense of positivity to your approach.
- Self-evaluate yourself every six months to see if you are learning anything new or doing the same task faster or better than you did before.
- Develop your interests, whether they are related to or unrelated to your professional life. Engage in creative pursuits outside work whenever you can.
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October 8, 2021
SONAL ALAGH, PARTNER AT ALAGH & KAPOOR LAW OFFICES, ON BEING A FIRST-GENERATION LAWYER, HER LITIGATION EXPERIENCE AND ESTABLISHING HER LAW FIRM
This interview has been published by Maaz Akhtar Hashmi and The SuperLawyer Team.

When did it dawn unto you that Law is the correct pathway? Could you walk us through your journey in the field of Law?

During my high school days, I was very passionate about my extempore and debate competitions. At that point, I decided to be a lawyer who argues in court (I was introduced to the terms litigation only during law school days). However, since my school days, “stage fright” was unknown to me. Therefore, it was not much of an effort game for me to put across my point of view in an easy, convincing, and assertive manner.

Consistency, persistence, and the go-getter attitude has been a game-changer for me, as I fixed my dream to have my own law firm during my law school days itself. One important lesson that I have been learning all along my journey is never to ignore any opportunity (even the smallest) that comes across your way, as you don’t know what lies on the other side of it.

You graduated with B.A.LL.B. from Vivekananda Institute of Professional Studies and went on to pursue your masters in Insolvency, Securities, and Investment Law from Government Law College, Mumbai, after litigating for a few years. What prompted you to pursue your masters in Insolvency, Securities and Investment Laws?

Firstly, in my final year of law school, I opted for banking laws as my specialisation, which helped develop my interest in various RBI schemes of debt resolutions. Subsequently, I was fortunate enough that my graduation was the same as the year of commencement of the Insolvency and Bankruptcy Code, 2016. My interest was further developed in this subject while handling the first mandate in December 2016 while working with the dispute resolution team of Desai & Diwanji.

In the year 2016 itself, I realised that the insolvency laws provide a fair playing field for all the lawyers and the way the Insolvency Code consolidated various legislations was very intriguing for me. Additionally, I thought it was a perfect combination of commercial litigation and debt resolutions, which made me pursue my masters in this field. During my masters, I realised that insolvency laws could not be seen in isolation without the entire cloud of all the commercial laws. In order to excel in commercial litigations, dispute resolution and debt resolution, insolvency laws seen in isolation are a very small part of it.

You have multiple titles and achievements credited to your name, from working with Desai and Diwanji, Khaitan Legal Associates, being a consultant to the Oyo Group, to starting your law firm Alagh & Kapoor Law Offices. If you were to introduce yourself in a word or two, how would you do it?

I am definitely a “Go-Getter Apologist”.

You have also pursued a diploma in GDPR from Henley Business School, United Kingdom. How do you think GDPR helps in guiding and regulating the way companies across the world handle their customer’s personal information and protect individual’s data?

Though India does not fall within the circuit of the European Union, and thus, even today, GDPR compliance is highly underrated amongst Indian entities. However, keeping in mind the global approach of all the MNCs and even the Indian entities having their offshore offices, all of them have to comply with the GDPR guidelines. Therefore, in today’s time, any entity has to be very sensitive towards protecting their Client’s data as the Client has provided the same under strict confidentiality.

Learning about GDPR was very important for me from a long-term view of managing and running your own law firm. Because of this learning graph, today, We – Alagh & Kapoor Law Offices handles its Client’s data with the utmost sensitivity. Often, the team at Alagh & Kapoor Law Offices provides training sessions to Corporates, assisting them in being GDPR Compliant by providing training sessions.

You joined Desai and Diwanji as Associate Lawyer immediately after law school. How has that experience shaped you and contributed to your interest in the field of litigation?

While I was interning with Desai & Diwanji during the final year of my law school, I was given a preplacement offer by the dispute resolution team of Desai & Diwanji to join them as an Associate. That has been the biggest stepping stone for me as I cannot stress enough how amazing the Dispute Resolution team of Desai & Diwanji is. Starting from teaching me that how a list of dates has to be drafted to giving me opportunities to even appear before the Supreme Court of India at a very young age has shaped me into what I am today. Therefore, I would take this interview as an opportunity to show my gratitude towards the Desai & Diwanji team (Delhi) as I would not have reached where I am today if they would not have shown confidence in me during my early years.

During the formative years of your legal practice in Indian Law Firms and Courts, proper guidance and the right tools are required to manage each step of the process. How important is it for someone to find a mentor when a lawyer sets foot into litigation?

It is one of the most important factors in litigation, especially if you are a first-generation lawyer. I cannot emphasise enough on how important it is to have a good mentor who is ready to invest in you. I have been very fortunate indeed and have utmost gratitude towards all my seniors who have invested their time in teaching me the nuances of the law and the important surviving skills required for the field of litigation.

You have also been involved in multiple non-performing asset (NPA) accounts referred for the insolvency resolution process under the Insolvency Bankruptcy Code (IBC) mandated by the Reserve Bank of India. How has your experience been working under the tenets of the IBC, 2016?

The first assignment that I started working on, under tenets of the Insolvency and Bankruptcy Code, was in the month of December 2016 (with Desai & Diwanji’s Team), when the law was too new for anyone to have a grasp on it. The journey of reading the code from scratch, interpreting the same, enhancing my knowledge along with the judicial interpretation of the code, being updated with the innumerable amendments, notifications, precedents and being vigilant on all the developments, all of it together has been one unforgettable bliss.

To gain an in-depth knowledge of the legal demands of companies, you decided to advise corporates and entered a retainership with the OYO Group as a litigation consultant, wherein you had handled dispute resolution & strategic advisory for contentious litigations. How did this experience help you cater to a larger and more diverse clientele in the future?

Working with law firms gave me an in-depth understanding of the procedural functioning of the courts, the judicial forums of India. It helped me enhance my efficiency in delivering my assignments. However, working as a litigation consultant for a corporate made me privy to the direct demands of corporates and their expectations when they outsource work to a Law Firm. It has also helped me enhance my knowledge about the working of the corporates, including the backhand operations, which further helps me today to better understand my clients’ needs.

Alagh & Kapoor Law Offices is a full-service law firm representing various clients ranging from beauty & healthcare, hospitality, infrastructure, banking & finance to real estate. What piece of advice would you like to give to people aspiring to establish their firm?

My one advice would be to be competitive while quoting the fees and provide the utmost efficient services to the best of your capabilities, which would justify the trust that your client has shown in you while giving you the assignment. Please be open to taking any and every kind of mandate that comes your way. Keep in mind to work consistently on enhancing your networking skills. In the end, it is non-negotiable to be updated on current affairs/precedents/legal developments and to keep brushing your drafting skills.

The pandemic has not only affected the way we work but also the way we manage our clients. What are the top three leadership challenges you have faced while working amid the COVID crisis?

I might sound a little unrealistic in my approach towards my work, but the pandemic has been another stepping stone for me. With deep cuts in the pockets of the corporate sector, boutique law firms with competitive fee quotes and equally efficient services were need of the hour. During the pandemic, the advice I received from my seniors in the legal fraternity has also played a very important guiding factor for me. Starting my own youtube vlog on insolvency laws (during lockdown) was very challenging as well as knowledge enriching for me.

All the challenges that I have faced, from building the trusts of corporates (being young and new market players) to adopting the new litigations technologies of virtual hearings, all have been a very knowledge enriching and learning experience for me; and it continues to be. My top three would be:
1. Networking by virtual meetings;
2. Making sure that your team does not lose motivation; and
3. Being consistent in your efforts, focusing on long terms goals.
How do you take care of your mental health and strive towards a good work-life balance? Do you still get time to pursue your hobbies amid a busy schedule?

To be honest, the only thing that has made me conscious about my mental health is the outbreak of the pandemic. And to cope up with the same, the only successful habit I could develop is reading a lot of good books (for example the 5 AM club), that motivates you to further develop efficient habits and help you in being more organised. One thing that we will have to ensure on our own is striving a work-life balance and making sure to leave few hours of your day just for yourself. I prefer it to be early morning. The amount of change a 20 mins early morning workout can bring to your day is highly underrated.

What would your advice be to all the young lawyers and law students who are deeply passionate about making a career in Law?

Being a smart worker does not mean you can escape being a hard worker. The only prerequisite to excel in the legal profession is to really have a passion for excelling and achieving in it. Choose law only if you are passionate about it. Don’t expect easy and quick money without having your decent share of struggle. Be open to learning from the experience of your seniors in the fraternity. At last but definitely not the least, be updated.

In the end, I would like to mention that you might come across a lot of people who might demotivate you or may question your career decisions. However, if you are passionate about your work, do not listen to anyone and follow your heart.

Get in touch with:
- LinkedIn
October 6, 2021
SHREYA SHARMA, WAVE MAKER AT THE GREY MATTER, ON WORKING AS A PARALEGAL, SWITCHING CAREERS AND HER ROLE IN A LEGAL CONSULTING & MANAGEMENT FIRM
This interview has been published by Maaz Akhtar Hashmi and The SuperLawyer Team.

You have had quite a journey as a law student, having studied at one of the most prestigious colleges, GLC Mumbai. Did any particular incident, interest, or influence prompt you to think of pursuing law?

In May 2010, I had just finished giving my engineering entrance exams. Coincidently, around that time, one of my father’s colleagues dropped off a few preparatory books for the CLAT entrance exam for somebody else. I happened to flick through the books, and this was my first introduction to law. I found the law of torts and contracts fascinating; therefore, I decided to apply for law. One month later, I was in Mumbai with a confirmed admission in GLC. Law happened by chance and then became my choice.

Being a Paralegal seems like an alien concept as the same is practised far more widely abroad. However, you worked as a paralegal at Amarchand and Mangaldas and Naik Naik and Co. Would you explain the charter of duties of a successful paralegal and how did you undertake work being one?

The definition of paralegal varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In India, honestly, there is not yet a clear distinction between an intern and a paralegal. However, I understand the trend is changing, and there are paralegal diploma courses now being offered by various universities.

In my third year of law school, it was perhaps the first time that erstwhile Amarchand & Mangaldas initiated a formal paralegal program. I was amongst the first few students who were offered this opportunity from our college. GLC curriculum gave me the time to pursue a long term commitment like this one. It allowed me to get first-hand experience, more like experiential training to becoming a lawyer. We were assigned mentors who were partners in the firm. Being closely associated with the lawyers gave us the tremendous opportunity to build a rapport with them, observe and learn how they handled clients, managed their time, drafted correspondences etc. Our work included proof-reading, documentation, researching case laws, rules and regulations, drafting due diligence reports, fact-gathering, analysing and drafting legal correspondences. In addition, before delegating work, the team would take the time to set the context by explaining the client background, mandate, and issues involved, which helped us gain tangible experience instead of simply doing research. Moreover, as a paralegal, we regularly received helpful feedback to enhance our practical knowledge.

My experience at Naik Naik & Co was equally beneficial and helped me think beyond legal jargon. For me, what stood out the most were the brainstorming sessions with the senior management. I was welcomed and encouraged to share my opinion as a junior, which was an invaluable experience.

Overall, my experience taught me to do more than what is being asked for, understand and proactively anticipate what more could be needed/done. Get creative, and don’t be afraid to make mistakes because no one expects you to know everything at this stage. If you get an opportunity to take up a paralegal role, approach it as a job, give it your 100%.

Having joined Naik Naik and Co., you quit after a few years and went for a Vipassana course followed by a few modelling assignments. What prompted the sudden change? Do you feel it is important for lawyers and law students to endorse the idea of career breaks?

The background to the change was due to certain prevailing factors which prompted me to make a switch. Keeping in mind the competitive atmosphere at college and my limited understanding, the only way I understood that I could become employable was to gain experience and polish my resume. This led me to intern almost throughout law school, and in my final year, I had a PPO offer in hand.

At Naik Naik & Co., there were many highs and lows. The highs included excellent training, getting the opportunity to travel across the country, interact and brief senior counsels, working on some fantastic national and international arbitrations, receiving immense acknowledgement and trust from the team. I am incredibly grateful for the exposure I received. However, the lows were the most challenging part – even though I was good at my work, I neither enjoyed nor was passionate about the practice leading to unhappiness and dissatisfaction. Ultimately, I had to step up for myself, and that’s when I decided to take a break and figure out my plans. It was scary, beyond my comfort zone and definitely against the so-called norms! You can only imagine the response I must have received when I broke the news to my family and team about quitting the law!

I took a few months off to travel with my family, went for a ten-day Vipassana course (which was an eye-opener), did a few experimentations like take up a few modelling assignments, interacting with people outside of the legal field, reached out to lawyers who had quit the practice of law etc. These experiences helped me introspect.

After each internship, I highly encourage law students to take stock of what worked for them and what did not. By that, I don’t just mean which field of law interests you but also, what are your driving factors? What motivates you? When did you feel the most proactive? Why were some days more fun than others? You see, the point of an internship is not just to learn how to become a lawyer; it is also an invaluable opportunity to learn about yourself. I say this because, in the long run, you can only sustain happily in a profession if it aligns with your nature and personality.

In 2017 you joined AZB & Partners as a business development manager. Indeed, this process involves a fair understanding of the business and legal aspects. How did you prepare for such a role, and do you believe roles like these are becoming increasingly popular in law firms?

Business development for any law firm is crucial for growth; however, no formal training/course is available yet. Over the last few years, BD roles (including internships) at law firms have become increasingly popular as firms have realised their importance in growing their legal practice.

I reached out to Neha Kashyap (who continues to be my colleague and dear friend) on LinkedIn. At that time, she was heading the business development vertical at AZB & Partners. I found out from her about an opening in the BD vertical at the firm and applied for it. As a non-practising lawyer, AZB & Partners was a whole new world for me. Fascinating, challenging and intimidating all in one. My previous experience and on-the-job training under Zia Mody’s guidance helped me learn about the field.

Additionally, I learnt a lot by simply watching the senior management lead in this space. With my legal background and experience, I found business development in law firms exciting and to my liking.

It’s been quoted by your colleagues that you are not afraid to speak your mind while you have still maintained relationships professionally. Could you please explain to our readers the fine line between being assertive and playing in a team?

I have always admired people who could clearly express their thoughts and opinions. There were multiple instances in the past when I used to hold back and hide what I believed in or what I wanted, including the time I wanted to quit law. I was fearful of being either judged, mocked, challenged by others or afraid I might displease someone, and that left me feeling stressed and under-confident. I had to learn how to be assertive. It is not about getting aggressive or dismissive; it is about being respectful and welcoming everybody’s point of view, including your own and coming up with a mutually viable solution.

Since your college days, you were always involved with law firms, and in 2018 you finally started your consulting journey at The Grey Matter. Was that transition planned or a leap of faith? What did you find exciting with legal management and consulting?

For me, the transition was a mix of very little planning, a leap of faith, confidence in myself and my team, and a lot of curiosity to see what more could happen. By this time, I had understood growth and comfort could not co-exist. It was time to take some risks.

Meeting a variety of law firms – start-up, boutique, small/mid-size and even individual lawyers has been an exciting experience. Each has its unique journey, culture, aspirations, personality, management and working styles. Their uniqueness is what helps us serve novelty in this field. It gives us the freedom, flexibility and opportunity to innovate and develop customised solutions for them. Our unique selling proposition (USP) is identifying best practices that align with the firm’s personality. Another aspect has been to observe how effortlessly law firms have welcomed this relatively new concept of practice management consulting. I think above all, the most exciting part is how much fun and learning I have experienced along the way.

The Grey Matter consults on a variety of issues and is also involved in law firm management. How much do you think the organization has succeeded in delivering value and innovative services to clients in the legal sector?

In 2018, we began with a focus on advising only small and mid-size law firms, primarily on practice development and law firm management. The intent was simple – we wanted to leave the lawyering to the lawyers while providing intelligent help with managing and running their practice.

Over the last few years, our offerings have evolved significantly purely based on client feedback and their evolving requirements. Under The Grey Matter umbrella, we advise and assist law firms of different sizes and structures on firm and individual branding, practice development, law firm management, relationship development, corporate communications, strategic business planning, tailor-made BD solutions, market research, internal process management, content overhaul, website development, digital visibility and identifying the right technology expert etc.

We are incredibly grateful to have received repeated mandates from existing clients, new references from colleagues and clients from time to time, and seasonal projects from top tier firms. I believe success is subjective, and for us, our primary aim was to become trusted advisors to our clients, and we have achieved that mark for ourselves.

As part of The Grey Matter, you host a live Instagram interview called the ‘Dareact Series’ every Friday, whereby individuals who took up alternate careers and worked in unconventional roles share their experiences. What was the thought process behind introducing such a series? How do you think it has furthered the goal of what The Grey Matter stands for?

The Grey Matter is a niche team of qualified lawyers. In 2020 as the pandemic hit, we had the time to realise and ruminate on the things that truly mattered to us. We looked inward and wondered how we all would have loved to understand what other options were available to us at some point during the lawyer life. We believe in the power of storytelling, for these stories can motivate, uplift, and encourage people to overcome their doubts and fear, and that’s how we put together the #Dareact conversation series featuring lawyers who chose Dareact over bare acts. Dareact is one of our passion projects. We have had journalists who studied the law to add value to their reporting, lawyers who are cricket umpires, fashion designers and entrepreneurs, fitness entrepreneurs, and many others. The love and acknowledgement received from law students and fraternity members on the series have been exceedingly gratifying.

Our #Dareact conversations take place on Fridays at 5 pm live on @thegreymatterllp

You are a certified NLP Coach Practitioner. Could you explain to our readers what exactly this is and how this course helped you develop personally and professionally?

NLP stands for Neuro-Linguistic Programming. NLP tools are practical ways to understand our minds, control & manage our beliefs and influences and make behaviour choices. It helps in developing our logical, emotional and intuitive intelligence, thereby achieving desired outcomes.

As a lawyer, besides technical knowledge, what makes you stand out and be unique is how you lead your team and clients. Skills such as communication (verbal & non-verbal), rapport building, persuasive negotiation, influencing, building trust, a better understanding of client’s needs are the most sought after in the industry. Yet, so little time is invested in polishing these skills. NLP incorporates many such elements to help professionals operate effectively and smoothly.

NLP, in particular, helped in breaking my limiting thinking patterns, improving perceptions and getting a better understanding of myself and others. It also helped me communicate effectively by choosing thoughts, emotions and actions proactively.

You have been an advocate of mental health, whether being an NLP coach or having your own Instagram page that speaks extensively about happiness in one’s life. Do you feel firms and practitioners in the field of law forget these qualities? What would be your recommendations for a systemic change whereby mental health is given priority?

In a demanding and competitive profession like law, cases of burnout and palpable stress have become relatively common. Despite being highly educated and accomplished in this intellectually stimulating career, one often tends to have little self-awareness and emotional regulation training. As a result, when significant stressors and challenges knock on our doors, we lack the tools to navigate our way efficiently. This affects our emotional well-being (happiness and joy), which ultimately interferes with the quality of our lawyering, professional decision making and business relationships.

Managing stress and keeping a positive mindset can undoubtedly be challenging with notoriously long work hours, tight deadlines, and pressure to appear tough and invulnerable to clients. However, a systematic change can begin with first acknowledging the situation for what it is, understanding the inevitable correlation between emotional well-being and cognitive performance, taking responsibility, increasing awareness and then effectively implementing requisite changes.

I believe the change is slow but has commenced. It has been heartening to see a few law firms focusing on initiatives to create awareness about the importance of emotional well-being and setting up practices to promote and enhance lawyer wellness.

You are the perfect embodiment of working hard and playing harder as a professional yoga practitioner, an expressive dancer, and a voracious reader. How do you strive towards a good work-life balance with a busy corporate life and law?

I consider myself to be a work in progress. It will always be a process of continuous learning. Having said that, I am grateful to be working with team members who believe in working smart, having a lot of fun and pursuing hobbies. We welcome days of hyper-focus where it’s all about the hustle, as well as days of scattering focus where it’s less about doing tasks but more about “being” creative, doing things we love because that’s what ultimately kindles our grey matter. 🙂

What would be your advice to all the people who look up to you as their inspiration, and want to reach the same height as yours in social as well as in a professional context?

I recommend developing a curious nature because it removes the pressure of figuring everything out and opens up possibilities one could never have fathomed otherwise. Choose to have a lot of fun, in whatever work you do. Lastly, always know that success is subjective. You get to decide your definition and not the society.

Get in touch with:
- LinkedIn
October 5, 2021
ABHISHEK SHARMA, MANAGING PARTNER AT PULASTYA LEGAL, ON ESTABLISHING HIS FIRM AND WORKING AS AN IP LAWYER, HIS STRUGGLES DURING COLLEGE & TAKING RISKS IN LIFE
This interview has been published by Maaz Akhtar Hashmi and The SuperLawyer Team.

You had a wholesome experience at law school which included good grades, internships and social connections. How would you summarize your law school journey, and how did it prepare you for your LLM and practice ahead?

My law school journey was a mix of reasonable opportunities being provided by my law school and a lot of self-exploration. Since we were the first batch of our newly formed law school, we were privileged to be taught by some exceptional visiting faculty as well. I was always in love with general law and order around me, but law school structured it for me to understand how the law works in society and opened my avenues of thinking. My deep interest in law took me to many conferences, seminars and regularly allowed me to have a rendezvous with legal luminaries. I spent a lot of time reading judgments, and legal language always fascinated me. Believe it or not, I wasn’t very good at English, but I took it as a challenge to speak only in English everywhere I went. I participated in several Moot Courts and learned the art of drafting and oral arguments through moot courts. I particularly identified my interest in Intellectual Property Laws in the 3rd year and started paying more attention to IP related news and events. I subscribed to almost all literature available in the libraries and became a keen consumer of knowledge. In my 5th year, I even enrolled for a Post Graduate Diploma in Intellectual Property Laws, from FICCI, where I learned about global IP laws, which took me a step closer towards my LL.M. Overall, I was in love with my law student life and given a chance I would do it all over again.

You pursued an LLM in Intellectual Property Law from one of the best colleges in the world, i.e., UNH Franklin Pierce School of Law. Could you please tell our readers how the international exposure has helped you gain perspective to improve your skills in the legal field?

To me, it was no less than a miracle that I ended up in Franklin Pierce School of Law at the University of New Hampshire in the United States. I came from a lower-middle-class background where bread and butter didn’t go together as butter was considered a luxury. However, I dared to dream of pursuing my LL.M. from the US, something that was unheard of in my family. I knew it would be an uphill task as the Indian ways would not be of help in the US. For example, the way we are taught in law schools in India is very different from the US. We are mostly spoon-fed, given notes, taught in a classroom-like structure, with attendance being taken daily.

The US methodology: In the US, things were very different. Maturity was presumed, and you were expected to pretty much self-study. Classrooms were not for teaching; rather, they were for discussing what everyone had read. We never discussed the black letter law but discussed why the judge decided a certain way—different ways and why the minority opinion should have made more sense. For someone coming from an Indian education setup, it was an eye-opener. Within the first week itself, it taught me that no one would make things happen for me. I am told which books to read and am given access to the world’s largest IP library, but it is only upon me to decide how I want to make the most of it. I was no longer a frog-in-the-well and was exposed to a different methodology of studying and practising law. The hunger to learn more took me to moot courts in the US, where I spent substantial time learning to present a case smartly by juxtaposing the Indian and American art of advocacy.

Cultural learnings: The legal professional serves the people, and to serve them better, I found it important to understand how the people in the US were. Being a foreigner, I had to learn how they behave, their culture, societal systems, interpersonal ways of dealing with each other and much more. I interacted with a lot of locals and took all opportunities to participate in any social event. This ended up adding to my legal skills while dealing with people later on and assists me even now.

Studying with international students: In addition to all this, since I was studying with many international students, it was interesting to see how they were taught and in their jurisdictions. I made deeper connections by comparing their legal systems with ours in a foreign land.

All these combined, I felt my skills were massively upgraded from what I had in my bag when I left India. Eventually, when I landed a job in California, I was a ready resource as I had learned the American ways of legal practice.

In law school, you often visited the law offices of Mr. MK Miglani, a renowned IP lawyer in Delhi whose son studied alongside you. You have often spoken about how the impetus of being an IP lawyer began with your conversations with Mr. Miglani. Could you recollect some of the valuable points and advice he gave you during that time?

The beauty of a lot of things often lies in their simplicity. In the crazy world of music, a flute is often the most soothing sound. Sometimes, it is not just the lesson that makes an impact but the person delivering it or the way it is delivered that makes all the difference. Mr. MK Miglani is a self-made man, and his life lessons were simple. They were not imposed on a 20-something-year-old and were only shared when asked. Being a lawyer, my father told me simple things such as: “Stay true to the work” or “Don’t run after the money“. Mr. Miglani’s teachings were on the same lines. He taught me general principles of the legal profession that perhaps my father taught me but somehow, they made sense to me as they were from a been-there-done-that IP attorney.

I remember, once he was meeting a client and I was waiting to just say ‘Hi’ to him in the conference room. Fortunately for me, I could overhear some part of the conversation. In a world where lawyers would do anything to bill the client, he advised the client not to file a case and take an alternate route. The way he treated his clients was remarkable. He even introduced me to many publications like PTC (Patent and Trademarks Cases), Kerly’s Law of Trademarks and many more. He even suggested that I should go to Indian Law Institute’s law library in New Delhi. Every session with him, even if it were a casual one at his home, was a discussion of his ongoing litigation that he used to teach us a principle of law and how he framed arguments in that case. The way he prepared for final arguments was super impressive, and he invited me multiple times to High Court to see him argue. All this was a jackpot for an IP enthusiast like me, and I still follow his teachings. I still counsel a client to the best of my abilities without thinking about the billings, and I still hold a ‘thank you’ from a client much more than a paid invoice.

Having completed your LLM, you started working in a technology platform dealing with trademarks named Trademarkia in California. Could you share your experiences working in a law firm abroad and a few snippets of dealing with multiple jurisdictions at once?

Allow me to be candid, and I will tell you that I was very lucky to end up with a job in the US. Of course, I worked towards it; I sent resumes (email and print) to all possible job postings, followed up hard and kept going. Finally, I got a job offer from a California-headquartered IP law firm, Raj Abhyanker LLP and moved to California. I learned the US and International patent filings and patent docketing and assisted the Managing Partner in growing the Firm’s trademark practice. Trademarkia.com, another parallel venture of my the-then boss, was the world’s largest trademark database was conceived to make the trademark registration process simple and easily accessible to the public at large. It grew exponentially, and I was managing the operations of the company. Like a typical start-up, I was a part of hiring, training and scaling the operations. This was my first shift towards managing an enterprise and taking critical decisions that were backed by the CEO. Also, dealing with multiple jurisdictions also opened new avenues of learning. Taking to global law firms, understanding their jurisdiction’s legal processes and presenting to the customers in a simpler D-I-Y format posed its challenges. Still, we were committed way too much for these things to stop us. Trademarkia.com, with its own adaptation, continues to grow.

Having completed 6 years at Trademarkia, you joined LegalForce RAPC Worldwide, where you rose from a senior associate in the California office to being a Partner at the Firm’s India offices. Could you share some striking characteristics which helped you with this meteoric rise?

The law firm Raj Abhyanker LLP that I joined in 2006 was renamed to LegalForce RAPC Worldwide later, and Trademarkia.com was a by-product of the Firm’s trademark practice. Since I joined the Firm first, I was an integral part of the Firm’s legal practice and grew within the Firm. I soon became an integral part of the Firm and had all plans to stay in California for a much longer period. However, for reasons best known to God, my work visa got rejected. Turning this situation into an opportunity, I volunteered to take over the Firm’s India operations and expand to include multiple practice areas. We started with an office in Bangalore and later expanded to Nagpur, where we ended up hiring 75+ local attorneys.

Hard work still has no replacement. I worked day and night to sign up clients, train people in India, travel to the US as and when needed, and scale up things for the Firm. I was blessed to have someone at the top who recognized the value that I created, and soon, I was made a Partner in the India office. I was surprised and motivated like never before to keep going. Apart from hard work, I did not pay much attention to the hierarchy of the law firm or my job profile and was soon the go-to person for almost everything. I did everything that I could in my capacity to see the Firm grow. I did give up on a lot of things on the personal front and don’t regret that at all.

The other characteristic that came in handy was the people management skills. I came from Delhi, where being socially passive wasn’t an option. Being an introvert was seen as being anti-social and almost rude. On top of it, if you chose the legal professional, dealing with people was a way of living. Hence, I would rate my people management skills as a top characteristic that helped me rise professionally.

Being a partner for LegalForce RAPC in India, you oversaw global intellectual property matters. Could you share one of the most interesting transactions you witnessed during your time with the Firm? Did you feel any pressure prior to the commencement of such deals?

One of the best transactions I witnessed was during the first week of my joining. We represented a client based in San Francisco who wanted to buy a global trademark portfolio from an entity based in South Africa. This required me to conduct a global legal audit, negotiate the terms of the transfer with the South African attorneys, and arrive at a fair price. We worked with a London based IP valuation firm to arrive at a fair price. The negotiations were hard, penny driven, and I felt that the trust was being lost during the negotiations. However, since I billed time on this personally, I was able to make it work for the benefit of our client and seal the deal for him. And yes, the pressure is always there. It is natural to feel nervous or have butterflies in your stomach, but the butterflies eventually fly away, and you feel confident handling such deals. The confidence comes from your preparation knowledge and practice.

Pulastya Legal is a boutique law firm engaged in providing high-quality Intellectual Property and corporate legal services to its clients. When did the entrepreneurial seed start to grow, and was this a calculated approach or simply a gut decision? Would you please share with our readers the array of work you handle at the Firm?

As I have shared in my stories on Medium.com, the decision to start with my own law firm was a calculated risk that I/we took. I feel decisions like this cannot be based on one’s gut feeling as there are clients’ legal rights on the line. Yes, there were times when I felt that I would not be able to manage the Firm, but my Partner-stint at LegalForce RAPC Worldwide helped me immensely. I want to credit my younger brother, Mayank Sharma, who is also my Partner in Pulastya Legal came up with the idea of starting something of our own. It was his idea that this would be the right time to take the plunge. However, being the senior one, it was left to me to make and implement a plan. So, the seed of entrepreneurship was unknowingly planted by my Partner at LegalForce as he was a serial entrepreneur with multiple US patents to his credit. He was a rare mix of a lawyer, engineer, and entrepreneur. However, not everyone who worked with him was bitten by the entrepreneurial bug. My grit and the confidence of having my brother next to me motivated me big time.

As a Managing Partner at Pulastya Legal, I focus on advising several Indian and US-based clients on IP protection, licensing and technology transfer related issues. I am also responsible for originating and managing clients at the Firm. Since I have done hiring and training for my previous ventures, I am also actively involved in nurturing new talent and moulding them to the Firm’s needs. I also speak at law schools (virtually now) and am an active speaker at events at TiE. I, with my team, also offer pro-bono legal advice to entrepreneurs and small businesses on identifying their Intellectual Property and creating effective in-house IP incentive programs.

At Pulastya Legal, besides advising clients over various legal matters, you also offer pro-bono legal services to entrepreneurs and small businesses on identifying their Intellectual Property. How much do you think it is essential for a lawyer to provide pro-bono services and what are the effects of such initiatives?

Law is an exciting profession where we can make a major difference in someone’s life. Our clients’ interests take priority over ours, and it is important that we preserve the nobility of this great profession. Being a second-generation lawyer and being taught by some of the best professors and advocates at some of the best law schools, it only makes sense for me to continue to add to the righteousness of the profession. Yes, it is about billings and all that but never have I ever compromised the best interest of a client or a potential client. Just because they are not able to pay me for my services has never stopped me from providing the best of my counsel. Pro-bono service is a great way to give back to the society that looks up to you for their legal solutions. There is a larger interest that we are expected to serve that to make money out of our time. I feel this is a moral responsibility of every lawyer, and it must continue. One of the best stories that I cite everywhere is my counsel to a company when they needed me the most but made it clear that they won’t be able to afford my services. A few years later, this IT company got funded, moved to a big office, and remembered me for my time back in the day and gave me a 6-figure monthly retainer for my services. The best effect of such pro-bono initiatives is that it creates deeper relationships with the receiver of such services, and they always come back to you for the good that you did.

Intellectual Property is an emerging field of law globally. How do you think the Gaming, Entertainment, and Information Technology sectors benefit from it, given the rise of legal protection these invoke?

It is an understatement that the gaming, entertainment, and IT sectors gain from intellectual property laws. These sectors are driven by creativity, and nothing in these sectors will bear any relevance if IP laws are loose and do not cater to the needs of these sectors. No scriptwriter will ever write, no coder will ever create a game, and there will be no motivation for innovation. In fact, I have been a strong advocate for better implementation of IP laws, both at the administrative and judicial levels, even though our judiciary has been super active in reinforcing the rights of the IP owners. Nevertheless, the IP literature and judicial pronouncements have increased a lot over the last few years, and there is enough support for IP owners in these industries to feel secure in knowing that the law is on their side.

India’s Parliamentary Standing Committee on Commerce released a report on Intellectual Property reforms. The committee urged that the recent abolishment of the Intellectual Property Appellate Board (IPAB) be reversed. How do you think this will impact the Intellectual Property field?

I welcome the recommendation to reverse the abolishment of the Intellectual Property Appellate Board (IPAB). However, I have seen the IPAB work in person, and there is so much more to be achieved there. I agree that abolishing the IPAB will burden the courts immensely but having a system makes no sense if it does not solve the purpose. For me, the delays, the administrative inefficiencies, and the paucity of resources will always be a concern until they are resolved effectively. Particularly, when we represent foreign clients, it becomes difficult to explain to them the delays and inefficiencies of the IPAB, almost to the point that they think we are not managing their matters properly. Hence, simply reversing the decision to reinstate IPAB is not enough. If we are relooking at IPAB’s existence, we might as well make it impactful this time.

The pandemic has affected people, work, businesses, etc., around the world. How did you cope with the challenges entailed?

In these testing times, one of the first things that we did was to ensure that our team was taken care of. My Partner and I gave up our salaries and ensured that our attorneys and staff were fully paid on time. Money made so much less sense to us during these times, and we all realized how much we value each other. I was stuck in the US for over 3 months, in March to May 2020, and I had to be evacuated under the Vande Bharat Mission by the Government of India. My team ensured that they spoke to me regularly and showed great concern, and we all grew closer to each other. However, as Managing Partners, we kept a buffer for emergency situations for up to six months, so there was some relief. Our main priority was to stay safe and assist our team in staying safe. Hence we offered whatever help we could.

Workwise, the billings dried up, many of our legal retainers were put on hold, some cancelled, and it was indeed tough times as the Firm’s income took a nose-dive. Since we had some time at hand, we started preparing for work when we resumed to a state of normalcy. However, little did we know that it would take this long. We focussed on mental and physical health and got to learn some new skills. Fortunately, our relationships with our clients were intact, and as soon as they could, our retainers were reinstated. Hence, with the support of a great time, we sailed through the tough times with sanity and, in fact, we’re not that badly hit. Things are on their way back, and we hope to continue on our path of growth.

You have always advocated for “more risk, more gain” in life, and your decisions have consistently shown that you aren’t afraid of taking risks. What would be your advice to our readers who believe in stability and want to set off in a similar direction?

I have always advocated for taking calculated risks. I agree that stability is important, but risks are not bad. Not taking the first step is a big risk. Not having a plan is the biggest risk. Life is all about risks – isn’t it? Risks often come with a negative connotation; hence I always say more calculated risks should be taken. I also believe that one needs to try the following:

Stay focussed: In the day and age of instants gratification, a lawyer needs to stay focused on his tasks at hand. I often get asked about my career, and I always say, focus on your Daily Tasks, and you will end up with a great career.

Don’t overthink, just begin: No matter how much you prepare, things can still go wrong. Have faith in your abilities and take the plunge as you can never be 100% ready for everything. There is no guarantee that all seeds will blossom into flowers, but that does not mean we don’t plant seeds or we stop watering them. Life is all about figuring things as we go along. Educate yourself to make informed decisions. Take the first step, and the rest will follow.

I hate a backup plan: Having a backup plan takes my attention from Plan A, so I am not a fan of Plan B. Unfortunately, we are always taught to have a backup plan, but I personally don’t prepare for it. When we think of having a backup plan somewhere, we are already presuming that our Plan A will not work, and unknowingly, we put less effort into our Plan A.

Have Fun: Crack a joke, smile at work, and make friends along your journey. As a lawyer, always go the extra mile for your client. Serve them well and thank them for the opportunity to serve their legal needs. Ultimately, we all want to sleep better – right?

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- LinkedIn
September 30, 2021
NITI NADARAJAH, HEAD OF LEGAL (AUSTRALIA) AT PHILIP MORRIS INTERNATIONAL, ON WORKING AS AN IN-HOUSE COUNSEL, AND HER DIVERSE EXPERIENCE AT INTERNATIONAL LAW FIRMS
This interview has been published by Maaz Akhtar Hashmi and The SuperLawyer Team. The Interview was taken by Priyanka Cholera.

When did it dawn unto you that Law is the correct pathway? You have learnt French during college, are you still fluent in the language as you were during your diploma days?

When I was in school, I had decided to study Commerce because I liked Economics, and at the same time, I also wanted to study languages because I was studying French and Mandarin Chinese. But when I started attending university, I realised that Economics taught in the university was different from what was taught at school and that I didn’t like it anymore. At the same time, I was studying some Law subjects and realised that I preferred Law to Commerce. This is the primary reason why I chose to become a lawyer.

Unfortunately, my Mandarin is non-existent now because I stopped learning the language in grade 11, 20 years ago. But I continued learning French throughout university and obtained a Diploma in French. I also lived in Montreal for half a year as an exchange student. During those years, my French was fluent, but it is now quite rusty. It does come back pretty quickly though if I travel to France or another French-speaking country. I still love the language.

After spending 6.5 years at Allen & Overy LLP, you moved to Philip Morris in Melbourne. Was that transition planned or a leap of faith?

I worked at law firms for around a decade. I was at Blake Dawson Waldron (now Ashurst) in Melbourne before moving to A&O in London. Quite early on during my time in private practice, I realized that it wasn’t fit for me because although I enjoyed the work, I did not like the lifestyle. I found that the focus on presenteeism and billable hours drove inefficiency. It seemed counterproductive to leading a healthy balanced life. Life is about family and the things you do outside of work; it’s the things that bring you happiness. So, for me, it didn’t seem like a sustainable career choice.

I had done a secondment at Citigroup while I was at Allen & Overy and had really enjoyed the in-house experience. I liked understanding more about a company rather than moving from one transaction to the next. Having that continuity really appealed to me. When I moved back to Australia, I decided that it would be easier to move with the firm for a number of reasons. I later realised that was probably not the best decision. Hence, the move to Philip Morris. I love being in-house. It’s a very different working style to being in a law firm and it really suits me.

During 2008-2009 you had worked as a legal counsel in an in-house team at Citigroup, in the backdrop of a global recession. How was the experience of working with a leading finance group during a financial crisis?

I was on secondment from A&O with Citigroup for about 10 months and started there about a week before Lehman Brothers collapsed. The GFC impacted London-based investment banks both from a people perspective, but also in relation to the nature of the work that was being done. On a broader scale, the GFC had a huge impact on London. You could see it on the streets with businesses closing down. You would hear about friends going through restructuring processes at their workplaces; we went through one ourselves. Restructures were not as common back then, so going through them taught me a great deal about resilience.

As for the last year, it’s been challenging on a very different level. I think the one critical learning that has come from the pandemic is that, while you need to be resilient, you need to be human first. The uncertainty attached to the last year made me realise that life is short and that you need to live in the moment and do what you want now, not put it off to a later time. I also learned that you need to support other people through a crisis; to not pretend that everything is okay, but rather acknowledge that it is not. What people ordinarily call “soft skills” really came to the fore in this period.

You have worked with Philip Morris in Australia for almost 9 years now. What has the experience been like working as an in-house lawyer compared to your law firm days?

I love working In-house; it brings consistency of workload; it allows you to really understand the business, understand the issues and get to know people on a much deeper level.

You have been an advocate for various social issues like mental health, gender equality and leadership fluidity. How have you incorporated these topics as boardroom conversations? How can the legal industry or corporates be more inclusive of gender and mental health issues?

I have been involved in a number of initiatives over the years, including a project regarding mental health awareness within my organisation. I was also involved in an initiative relating to flexibility in the workplace and changing perceptions around flexibility, and have done a lot of work with our inclusion and diversity committee. I believe that having conversations on all of these issues is important. As and when something comes up that relates to one of the topics that I am passionate about, I make sure I find my voice and offer my opinion on the matter.

Secondly, it’s important is to know that you can have an impact outside of your organisation too. I have realised through my journey on LinkedIn that there are many people out there doing great work in these areas and that you can get involved at a more grassroots level.

You’re associated with The Pink Elephants Support Network as a Peer Support Champion. Can you walk us through your role and impact the organization is trying to make? Did the support for the organization stem from a personal experience?

In between my two children, I had two miscarriages. They had a devastating impact on my mental health. After my first, I kept working as a form of distraction, even though I was suffering internally. When I had my second, some months after my loss someone asked me if I was okay; it made me pause. I realized in that pause that I wasn’t okay and needed to talk about why I wasn’t okay. What I realised through that conversation and my experiences is that there is a cone of silence surrounding early pregnancy loss. I didn’t realise how many people I knew had gone through something similar until I started talking about my losses. Then people would say, “I had one too, and it was horrible and really hard”.

That’s why I started talking about my losses more publicly – to bring a voice to the topic – and during that time, someone connected me to the Pink Elephants Support Network. When I saw the work the organisation does in helping to support women who have suffered early pregnancy loss, I knew I wanted to get involved.

You have completed a Company Director’s Course from the Australian Institute of Company Directors. Do you believe that “one should never stop learning or upscaling” even if they’re at the peak of their careers?

I think that continuing to invest in your own learning and development is critical at any stage of your career. And that can involve a variety of things beyond formal training courses, such as listening to other people’s talks or seminars, reading books or articles and of course, learning on the job.

What would you advise people who’re finding it difficult to voice their concerns about their workplace? Is there anything they need to be cautious about or prepare beforehand?

I think there are a couple of things that you need to ask yourself: who is the person I am going to voice my concerns to, is that person someone I trust and do I think they are going to do something to affect change.

I definitely think speaking up is important though. In a LinkedIn post the other day, I said that what you walk past is what you’re willing to put up with

The other thing I think you need to ask is whether the organisation is right for you if you are questioning toxic behaviour in that workplace.

In the early stages of my legal career, I definitely experienced some workplace issues, including a certain level of toxic behaviour. It’s hard to speak up and have a voice in those environments when you’re so new to the profession. When we’re in the junior stages of any career we often have blinkers on with respect to the range of options available to us – they do however exist.

You are an inspiration to many leaders who encourage vulnerability and open conversations on mental health. Do you think that Emotional Intelligence has helped you be a better leader?

Yes, a hundred per cent. I believe Emotional Intelligence is incredibly important nowadays. It enables you to listen to people, stand back, put yourself in their shoes, and be empathetic. Emotional Intelligence is definitely one of the most important skills leaders should have.

Have you faced silent sexism or racism for being a woman of colour? How have you dealt with it or moved past it?

Everyone has different experiences. My personal experience has not been one of having faced overt discrimination as a woman of colour. That’s not to say that these issues don’t exist. These issues are very real, and I hear about them all the time. I view it as my privilege that I have not faced these issues myself, and therefore, I need to have a voice on these matters to be able to give back and help others who have faced these issues. Pregnancy and maternity leave is for example still a challenging area for many organisations. It is a critical time in a woman’s career and negative perceptions and biases can play a role in the way women are viewed in organisations and how they continue to progress in their careers.

Being the wonderful storyteller that you are, have you ever considered taking up storytelling as a full-time career?

I have fallen into storytelling very recently as a result of my journey on LinkedIn. What I have realised through telling stories is that it needs to be a part of our day-to-day life. Whatever profession you are in, storytelling can play an important role.

For me personally, storytelling is something that I really enjoy as I love the human side of work. I believe that we are first human beings and what we do comes after that. It is important to let other people see who you are and that, for me, is where storytelling becomes relevant.

My fundamental message is to be yourself, be authentic, do not force yourself to be someone you are not, look deep within, try and understand who you are and bring that with you to work, wherever you are!

Get in touch with:
- LinkedIn
September 29, 2021
NIYATI AHUJA, ASSOCIATE AT STEPTOE & JOHNSON LLP, ON PURSUING LLM FROM UC BERKELEY SCHOOL OF LAW, HER INTEREST IN INTERNATIONAL ARBITRATION AND WORKING WITH AN AMERICAN LAW FIRM
This interview has been published by Maaz Akhtar Hashmi and The SuperLawyer Team. The Interview was taken by Priyanka Cholera.

You have an intriguing trajectory that we are excited to talk about. Did you envision this for yourself in the first year of law school?

Thank you for inviting me. Indeed, it has been a very interesting journey so far and I hope that it continues to be. When I joined law school in 2012, I did not in any way anticipate that I would be working at a law firm in New York or moving to a new country altogether. I wanted to get an LL.M. degree to take advantage of the several practical opportunities available to understand the legal practice in foreign universities, which are still missing in Indian universities as their main focus remains on teaching the theory of law. I hadn’t decided at the time whether I would pursue my LL.M. in the United Kingdom, like most law students in India, or the United States, where job prospects after an LL.M. for Indian lawyers are considerably limited. With hard work and some luck, I was admitted into the University of California, Berkeley which is a great school, and my launching pad into a career in the United States. During my LL.M., in addition to my coursework, I did a part-time internship with the Office of the General Counsel at the Bay Area Rapid Transit. I truly cherish that internship as my first exposure to the workplace in the U.S. The journey has been surreal and has involved plenty of blood, sweat and tears. It also required ample time and perseverance to continue looking for a position that would entail work in the areas of law that I enjoy. Overall, the journey has been interesting, and I hope it stays that way!

Let’s start from the beginning: why law out of all the career choices available? And how was your experience at Guru Gobind Singh Indraprastha University?

I had wanted to become a lawyer ever since I was in ninth grade. It wasn’t an obvious choice, though, as everybody in my family is either a doctor or an engineer, and my father was in the army. However, the ability to use analytical reasoning, writing and oratory skills in a profession were factors that got me interested in the legal profession. I have participated in several debates and had been commended in school for my writing skills, which aided my decision to become a lawyer. Essentially, the profession indeed is a mixture of a lot of writing and speaking. When I started law school, I was very interested in venturing into and specializing in criminal law; however, I was advised by senior lawyers that it wasn’t the safest profession for women in India and that I should consider corporate law instead and that is what I did. Most of my internships during law school in India were in the field of corporate law and capital markets.

Regarding my experience at Guru Gobind Singh Indraprastha University, I would definitely say that the five years were very formative in my career development, especially in terms of thinking about legal issues. I participated in many Model United Nation conferences and Parliamentary Debates, which ultimately had a bearing on my choice of practice area. I think the best part of being in law school is that the only responsibility is understanding the courses, getting good grades, interacting with other students and professors, and participating in co-curricular activities. I chose my university mainly for two reasons – first, it had an option to pursue a Bachelor of Business Administration integrated with the LL.B. and second, the class size was very small (30) for this course, which is a great way to get individual attention from professors.

During your time in law school, you interned at different offices, including a senior advocate, a medical devices company, capital markets departments of two of the biggest firms (Luthra and Khaitan) etc. What value did these internships add?

Every internship teaches you how to think and write like a lawyer. Even though an intern isn’t given huge responsibilities or assigned drafting an entire document, you get to witness and assist lawyers by researching specific points and producing early drafts. It becomes a part of the learning process. Amongst my several internships, I had the greatest learning experience when I interned with a Senior Advocate in the Delhi High Court who practices in Criminal Law and with the capital markets team of Khaitan & Co. as well as Luthra & Luthra Partners where I learnt a lot from a small team including a partner and a senior associate. The internships shaped me as a lawyer, and they essentially helped me learn how to think, research and write.

However, the style of writing adopted by lawyers in India is very different from American or British lawyers. Therefore, I had to adapt my writing style to what is expected from an American lawyer. The LL.M. program and taking the New York bar were very important in my understanding and adaptation of writing an effective brief like an American lawyer.

In one of your interviews, you stated that while shortlisting schools for LL.M., you considered the quality of journals published by various law schools in America. And even during your time at Berkeley, you were a part of many renowned journals. Would you please share the thought process behind giving such importance to journals? How has being associated with these journals shaped you?

That is correct, one of the many factors I considered while shortlisting schools to apply to was the quality of journals published by the law school. I was an associate editor for both the Berkeley Business Law Journal (BBLJ) and the Berkeley Technology Law Journal (BTLJ). Most law schools have good journals. However, some are more renowned than others, for instance, the Berkeley Technology Law Journal is one of the top journals in the U.S.

As a member of these journals, I was exposed to various interesting articles submitted for publication and participated in cite and source checking for these articles, as well as took part in several activities organized for the members. The activities provided access to various law firm organized events as well as to students pursuing their J.D. who had a different perspective on the law school experience as compared to international law students and insight into the American legal market. When you’re working for such journals, you get to read a lot of excellent literature that has been written, understand the editorial process, which is immensely helpful if you are interested in publishing articles later in your career.

One of the most interesting observations we have noticed is that it was only after you started pursuing your LLM that you streamlined your work towards arbitration. Was there any particular experience/incident that inspired you to pursue a masters?

First, regarding the focus on arbitration, it is correct that after my LL.M. I refocused on opportunities in the international arbitration field. However, my interest in the field was longstanding. During my third year in law school, one of the Model United Nation conferences I attended included a ‘Permanent Court of Arbitration’ committee and the case we were arguing was the famous Philip Morris v. Australia case. I found it very interesting how parties had the autonomy to choose the law applicable to their dispute, the seat of arbitration and the arbitrators deciding the dispute. I found the entire procedure really different, giving a lot of autonomy to the parties. That is how I got interested in arbitration. Once I started my LL.M., I opted for all courses related to international arbitration. Fortunately, my commercial arbitration professor was very patient and encouraging and his coursework genuinely reinvigorated my interest in international arbitration.

Second, I aimed at specializing in business laws during my LL.M. and opted for as many international law courses as I could. My LL.M. was never meant to focus on international arbitration alone and I am glad it didn’t since I have used various business law concepts in my international arbitration practice so far.

Right after Berkeley, you attended the International Arbitration Academy in Paris, one of the most renowned institutions worldwide for studies on Arbitration. Could you share with our readers your experience at the Academy?

It was an absolutely great experience. We were a class of around 80 students including young to mid-level practitioners sharing a common interest, international arbitration. The courses are taught by renowned practitioners from all over the world. To name a few, we had professors from the University of Paris 1 (Panthéon-Sorbonne), the University of Liège and Brussels, the University of Oslo, the University of Geneva, Dean of Swiss International Law School and Professor emerita of Private Law at the University of Basel/Switzerland.

There were also workshops and seminars conducted by legal counsel from ICSID, Deputy Secretary-General and Principal Legal Counsel, Permanent Court of Arbitration, Secretary-General, ICC International Court of Arbitration, Deputy Secretary-General, ICC International Court of Arbitration, Secretary-General, Hong Kong International Arbitration Centre, as well as arbitration practitioners from Shearman Sterling.

Not only did I get exposure to the teachings of the esteemed faculty, I also learnt about the difference in practices and experiences of the other students coming from approximately 30 countries. Overall, it was an excellent learning experience and networking opportunity. I made several cherished connections which I maintain to date.

You have interned at various US law firms, like Alston & Bird, Busse Disputes. How have these experiences contributed to your growth? Do you think it would have been easier to land a role if you attained bachelors from a foreign university?

I admit it would have been considerably easier to be employed in the U.S. had I pursued my Juris Doctor (J.D.) in the U.S. As a matter of fact, I did consider it, however, I had already completed my B.B.A. LL.B. and LL.M. degrees, so I didn’t really think it was an economical option.

It is difficult for international students/lawyers to break into the legal market in the U.S. as U.S. law firms generally hire from their summer associate cohort, and international profiles aren’t the usual suspects owing to the obvious lack of a conventional J.D. degree. However, difficult does not mean impossible, many LL.M. students who went the extra mile are now working in law firms in the U.S.

I worked with Alston & Bird, New York for around eight months with a team of very competent and approachable lawyers. I also made some great professional connections which I maintain to date. I not only learnt how to draft legal memoranda, effectively conduct research in American and International law, and understand aspects of an arbitration proceeding and enforcement action. This was my first experience and exposure to US law firm culture which is different in many aspects from Indian law firms.

When I went to Germany to intern at Busse Disputes, it was a country and culture that I did not know much about. It was my first experience with a boutique arbitration firm, and it was interesting to learn how a boutique firm functions. I also had the opportunity to understand an arbitration proceeding from the perspective of an arbitrator. The manner of working and assigning tasks is comparatively different from the U.S. I found that German firms are more formal and hierarchical whereas U.S. firms (or at least the ones I have worked with) are collegial and tend to give you as much responsibility as you are willing to take.

What were your key responsibilities as an Associate at Diamond McCarthy LLP? What are key firm culture differences in India and the US?

As the only associate in the international arbitration practice group at Diamond McCarthy, I was entrusted with a unique level of responsibilities and autonomy on a range of complex arbitration and related litigation matters. I conducted legal research and drafted pleadings, witness statements, instructions to experts, document production requests and responses, and handled correspondence with opposing counsel and tribunals. I was also heavily involved in the business development efforts of our practice group.

I think it was a great learning experience since it led me to understand how all aspects of a case really works and how different components come together, as well as the requirement to consider external factors which impact a case.

With the passing years and stricter visa regulations, we understand that getting a job in the US with an LL.M. is not very easy. What did you do differently to penetrate the legal market, and is there any advice for people looking to enter the US legal market?

There is this notion that visa regulations restrict international lawyers from getting employment. However, I think that is only partially true. Once you have proved your mettle, firms will gladly sponsor your visa. The greater barrier is the unconventional profiles that international lawyers bring to the table. If you look at tech companies, they hire immigrants (including Indian engineers) all the time and sponsor their visas.

I encourage people to not be disheartened owing to this preconceived notion regarding potential visa issues, and apply to as many jobs as you can with a cover letter and resume tailored to the position.

I quickly learned that U.S. law firms were not willing to hire me as an associate straight off the bat, so I started applying for trainee and internship positions. I also networked quite a fair share and tried to attend all available dispute resolution related events, even during my LL.M.

As far as the financial side of things is concerned, I took a loan for my LL.M. An LL.M. is a huge financial investment, and I was determined to ensure that the investment was worth it by persevering and leaving no stone unturned. I will not deny that there were times when all I wanted to do was give up, take the easier route and apply to a position at an Indian law firm. At such times, my mother gave me the strength to keep at it and reminded me that there is always a light at the end of a tunnel.

You were a gold medalist at Delhi State Inter- School Karate Competition. And even during your time at Berkley, you opted for a Yongmudo (Korean Martial Arts), Taekwondo, and Ballet course. Could you tell us more about these interests of yours?

My father was in the army, and since I was a child, he always encouraged my sister and me and provided me with avenues to participate in physical activities like rock climbing, rappelling, skiing, basketball and Karate.

I moved to the U.S. for my LL.M. when I was 22 years old, I was learning about a new country, its legal market, and dealing with applying to internships and associate positions. At times I found myself overwhelmed by these things, and the Ballet course, Yongmudo, and Taekwondo classes were an effective way to cope with the stress and give myself a break from law school. An added advantage was that I made some good friends and met many people who I wouldn’t have had access to if I only spent my time in law school. I think overall it did wonders for my mental and physical health.

The pandemic has been quite challenging both personally and professionally. What are your coping mechanisms? What would be your parting advice to students and lawyers who want to work in American law firms?

The uncertainty combined with the devastating state of affairs during the peak of the Covid-19 pandemic affected everyone all over the world. Personally, there was and continues to be a lot of hard work which goes into coping with everything, and hobbies like gardening, reading books, and painting really helped me. But I won’t lie, there were days during the pandemic when I felt burnt out. That being said, it also made me acknowledge that mental health issues remain unspoken in our profession, making it even more important to reach out to others if things get overwhelming.

My advice for students and junior lawyers, especially during this pandemic, would be to take small steps towards your goals but keep moving. The small steps and plans that you layout seem achievable that way. I would suggest that they meet new people – virtually or if you are able to in-person, even if it makes you feel uncomfortable at first. Once you start, you will eventually enjoy interacting with people who share a mutual interest with you. The best relationships I have fostered with colleagues are the ones that began organically and also making the effort to stay in touch with them. Be confident and express your interest if you are interested in a person’s practice and would like to learn more about it. You will be surprised at how many people respond and would like to help younger lawyers build a successful career. Lastly, I would just advise or rather preach something I do practice – never give up, your dreams might seem big right now, but believe in yourself and you will achieve what you set your mind to. It will not be easy, but it will be worth it, and eventually, everything will make sense. For the fear of sounding too much like Dr Seuss, I truly believe that in life, you can steer yourself in any direction you choose. I hope that does not sound too cliche, but I truly believe it. Last but not least, make sure you have fun in this journey even though it’s a difficult one. Take care of yourself and hone your skills continuously to become the best version of yourself.

Get in touch with:
- LinkedIn
September 27, 2021
SRINIVAS KOTNI, FOUNDER & MANAGING PARTNER AT LEXPORT, FROM BEING A CS TO A CORPORATE LAWYER, ON ESTABLISHING HIS LAW FIRM AND SHARING HIS EXPERIENCE OF OVER TWO DECADES IN THE LEGAL PRACTICE
This interview has been published by Maaz Akhtar Hashmi and The SuperLawyer Team. The Interview was taken by Priyanka Cholera.

Did any particular incident, interest, or influence prompt you to think of pursuing law? What other options would you have considered for your career, if not law?

I am a commerce graduate from DU and have taught computer science and worked in the data processing department of a listed company. Although I enjoyed working in IT, I used to get stuck to my screen with minimal human interaction. I remembered the charming subjects of mercantile/business law and taxation law during my university years which triggered my interest in studying law. I thought a legal career associated with commercial enterprise would be tempting. As a qualified Company Secretary, I could appear before all tribunals and courts besides the High Court and Supreme Court. As someone without any legal background, I believe it was my destiny that allowed me to change tracks swiftly.

Reminiscing about your college days, are there any anecdotes you would like to share?

The jam-packed life became the norm for me. After my BCom and IT degree, I worked as a computer instructor. The same was true during my time as a law student when I used to work from morning till evening and then attend college. As a working student, I couldn’t take preparatory leaves for my exams, so I adjusted my timetable accordingly. I decided not to pursue academics after the age of 26/27. Even with a fear of burnout, I was willing to go the extra mile and become an able and self-reliant person. My CV was decorated with my working experiences and educational qualifications.

One should be abreast with what’s happening around. It will change the way you look at things, and the world will become a better place to live and work. I was never a textbook person; the course material was enough for me. People generally lose a lot of time in reading unnecessary stuff, whereas everything in the exams is based on the study material and past question papers and trends.

You had started your career as a professional working with management information systems, data processing and other company secretarial functions. Could you describe this transition from being a Company Secretary to a Corporate Lawyer?

During my CS, I learnt about industrial law, HR law, economic legislation etc., and this was the primary reason for doing the course. Although I was interning as a CS, I was still inclined towards the legal profession especially, because of the research, drafting and presentation aspects involved in law. The qualification of CS definitely helped me in developing a macro perspective on the legal field and familiarize myself with the legislative and legal ecosystem.

After spending half a decade at Lakshikumaran & Sridharan, you set out to establish your firm, Lexport, in 2000. How did your initial years in the practice shape your outlook? What were some of the challenges that you faced while setting up your firm?

This is a very nostalgic question for me. I was 27 and was determined not to approach the clients I previously worked with. I wanted to work with integrity. I was broke and did not have money in my pocket but had ideas and an utter zeal to do well.

When you start afresh, getting clients and work is arduous. The first problem was to reach out to clients. I decided to be patient, and with a chair, table, scooter and address I began my journey. Eventually, I started getting a few assignments and met people through events or professional conferences. I am a social person, so even if I meet people for a brief moment, I make sure to establish a connection. People’s perception is extremely important. If they find you competent, they would be more likely to offer you work.

Could you please share with our readers your journey of over two decades with Lexport. What piece of advice would you like to give to people aspiring to establish their firm?

I shaped my career in a manner that both my academics and professional experience would be used. I had 5-years of experience before starting Lexport, and in those 5 years, I have put as much effort as people put in 15 years. I gave my 200% to everything I did. At 27, even if you’re competent, you tend to get underpaid. Eventually, we get better at our jobs, build credibility and start attracting bigger roles. Whatever makes you happy gives you peace, and things that do not make you lose love for others are enough to stay happy. The monetary aspect of it is definitely important, but it isn’t something you should lose sleepover. A massive space with a good seating arrangement is unimportant since nothing would be enough, and people’s needs would never end. These days youngsters look at work commercially. I’ve seen some very bright people do routine/repetitive work for an extra buck at random places. While some are built for that field, others just chase it for money. It is about stability and consistency, so be there for 3 or 5 years, you will surely learn something. Money will eventually come and go, but satisfaction, pride and happiness will make you a complete person.

The Cryptocurrency and Regulation of Official Digital Currency Bill, 2021, has been tabled and will most probably be taken up for discussion in the monsoon session of this parliament. What is your opinion might be some of the tax implications if Cryptocurrency were to be regulated and brought under the Indian tax regime?

Technology keeps on changing, starting from the earlier era until today; we have seen our lives changing in one aspect or another. Today, the IT revolution has emerged. Being from an IT background, I have seen the change from a dumb PC to what it is today. The concern here is data integrity, and it needs to be secured. Logically, you can only have physical security or some systematic security like passwords etc., and all these can be breached.

Before coming to the concept of Cryptocurrency, we need to understand blockchain. It is a distributed ledger technology, where your data is residing in bits and pieces in different systems and hard disks around the world and each bit/piece is pointing/cross-referencing towards the other thereby creating a web structure for a database. If you hack into one computer, you would not have access to complete data. So as a database, security and storage concept, I believe it is a path-breaking technology. Thus, many applications came based on this distributed ledger technology and finally the Japanese gentleman Mr. Sutaki I think used this technology for establishing a digital currency. There are several different concepts, it is just a digital currency, and the underlying assets are being traded against that currency based on its value. It is interesting to note that this currency is not physical. This is a logical currency residing in your machine.

The moment Cryptocurrency emerged and people started honouring it, the countries were threatened, as their domain of monetary policy through their central banks was being taken away. Therefore, some countries adopted it, and some were skeptical. If you look at the RBI circulars, they are non-committal. They are neither saying it is illegal nor banning it. At the end of the day, the Government wants to regulate cross-border transactions and levy taxes.

In some countries, there are even ATMs where you can withdraw money from the cryptocurrency account. Therefore, formal and informal systems are shaking hands. In India, we should regulate this, but if we kill the idea of Cryptocurrency, then India would lag behind. In a global economy, you cannot do much, and if it’s a system or technology that has to work, it will work. If you want to regulate something, go for it. Nobody knows about its existence and true nature; it’s just an enigma. It is an interesting subject which is here to stay. The country should accept and regulate it but shouldn’t prohibit and/or over-regulate it. Don’t ban or prohibit the idea of Cryptocurrency because if you do so, people will move out. At the end of the day, what matters is whether we want to be a secluded economy or an integrated economy. Don’t kill the hen, which lays golden eggs.

Taking insights from your illustrious career in the legal profession, what is one essential skill or trait that you believe every lawyer should adapt to?

Make a choice and stick to it. We have a habit of over-thinking, and we keep on shifting, and eventually, we realize that the first thing we picked up was the best. Being ambitious is fine, but don’t be over-ambitious or impractical. Your skills are your driving force, not your qualification or what others are doing. Different people have different skillsets, backgrounds, tastes and professionalism, so never compare yourself with others. Find out what your strengths and weaknesses are and plan accordingly. You should learn how to communicate with people. Try to improvise your skills and then choose your subject area wisely. You will eventually come across an interest, which will become your passion. Otherwise, be a lawyer and do whatever comes your way. Don’t be rigid and try to mould your life in a positive manner by seeking and accepting good opportunities. There is a lawyer in every family; though it is good, there is limited scope in this area. You need to be good; otherwise, you will waste your opportunities.

How did your IT and other experiences come together as an aid?

As an intern in a law or consultancy firm, I was well acquainted with PowerPoint and other similar software back in 1995. Therefore, I could be involved end-to-end in every presentation and was even given the opportunity to present, keeping me much ahead of my peers as far as my learning was concerned. Furthermore, graphics and pictorial presentations helped me to explain complex matters with a small diagram, which would otherwise take a thousand words to explain. And back in the days, I could make such graphical representations even in respect of court matters. Furthermore, programming requires a structural and logical approach and is similar to writing a pleading, where you need to take step after step, first the title, then facts, grounds and finally the prayer. So that systematic approach helped me in my legal profession.

How do you ensure that your employee’s mental health is in check during this pandemic?

In the beginning, the lockdown was a little harsh since nobody was used to working from home. Some employees had issues coping up with the arrangement; therefore, we tried to fill the gap with happiness programs, made more interactions and even got a few motivational speakers. I tried to counsel a few who brought their problems to me, assured them that they need not worry, and asked them to discuss their difficulties. If people don’t confide in me, I wouldn’t be able to help, and therefore both the person and the work would suffer, hence creating an unhealthy and unhappy environment.

The pandemic has affected people, work, businesses, etc., around the world. How did you cope with the challenges entailed?

At the beginning of the pandemic, the entire workflow and money inflow stopped. Managing daily chores became an issue with people forced to stay at their homes. Fortunately, a couple of years back, we moved all our data to Microsoft one drive. We were also using software for workflow management. We replaced the desktops with laptops and had software packages, which helped us keep up with the assignments and meetings. After an initial 2 to 3 months shock, we got used to the arrangement. We weren’t using our office much and therefore shifted to our own premises to reduce infrastructure costs. Today we have a very flexible work policy, where people have to master their work, need to perform well and meet deadlines. Even the clients are happy to meet online, making it a very comfortable situation by working from home. People have to complete their assignments on time, and if there is not enough work, they can learn new skills sitting at home, which will help them grow in the profession.

Lawyers have to consider themselves as professionals first. They have to keep in mind the interests of the clients at all times and also keep abreast with new learnings every now and then. Their growth needs to be continual. If they are not working harder, their journey might be tough ahead.

What advice would you have for law students & young lawyers who want to set off in a similar direction?

Be very clear about your priorities. Pick a profession only if you are interested in that area, and refrain from showing off things. You should do your work passionately and sincerely and not just for mere name and fame. Do not rush after things because it takes time to become successful.

Work sincerely and inculcate good ideas into your daily life. Try to stay humble and grounded, as these will help you reach new heights. Overconfidence and overthinking kills people’s time and efforts. Set goals in life and work towards fulfilling them with your heart and soul. Things may take time to come on the right track, but nobody would want to lose you if you are good at your work.

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September 22, 2021
DEEPTI SARMA, PRACTICE LEAD, GENERAL CORPORATE & ADVISORY AT ANAND & ANAND & KHIMANI ON ESTABLISHING HER CAREER IN LAW, HANDLING M&A MATTERS AND HER ROLE BEING A CORPORATE LAWYER
This interview has been published by Isam Kabir and The Super Lawyer Team. The Interview was taken by Priyanka Cholera.

After pursuing a Bachelor in Commerce, Economics and Accountancy, you got your career off the ground by studying law. Could you describe the transition from Commerce to Law?

I was quite sound in academics, right from school through college. I was a gold medallist and one of the state toppers in my HSC examinations (I was a commerce student). The very obvious choice was to pursue chartered accountancy or the company secretary course, both of which didn’t interest me at all! The lack of alternatives didn’t scare me- I somehow just knew in my heart that I would find my true calling soon (although I must admit, that ‘soon’ happened only once I graduated from college!). I zeroed in on M.Com and Law as potential options for post-graduation. Back in 2005, law as a career had not really gained traction and was not considered as a lucrative career option, especially for first-generation lawyers like me. However, I instinctively decided to apply to Government Law College, Mumbai to give law a shot. I vividly remember the day I had to submit my application when GLC had run out of application forms and I literally wrote mine on a plain piece of paper and made my submissions! I got through and from there on, there was no looking back. I would like to call myself a classic case of a lawyer by chance.

You joined Desai and Diwanji as Associate Lawyer immediately after law school. How has that experience shaped you and contributed to your interest in M&A and General Corporate?

I started working with Desai & Diwanji (‘D&D’) in my second year of law school. The practice of permanent interns was mostly prevalent then, and I was being interviewed along with ten other interns and believe me, I had no idea about the entire process or where I was going to land up! Just like when I got into law school, my academics spoke for me and before I knew it, I was shortlisted and had officially kick-started my journey as a paralegal trainee- my first step towards being a lawyer. Whilst I do agree that the current structure of the legal education system may not exactly unravel how good a lawyer you are, at a time when you are an intern or a fresher with no real experience to do the talking for you, sound academics to some extent helps people take you seriously.

Interning at multiple firms was something that I never considered as an option because by nature, I am a nester. I strongly believe that understanding a workplace and its dynamics takes time and making a judgement about whether or not a law firm is for you takes a minimum of 6 months. Again, this was my take and I must say that there have been several colleagues I know who have gone the ‘multiple internships’ path and found their conducive work environment as well. There is no ‘one size fits all’ approach to this decision and what works for me or someone else, may not work for everyone.

I decided to give my stint at D&D a few months to understand how exactly a corporate team of a law firm functions. I was lucky to have worked with a wonderful team of young and senior professionals who helped me transform into a holistic professional. A law career requires a plethora of skill sets which I understood as my internship progressed. Whether it is interacting on the phone with a client or putting together a legal opinion as per the firm’s standards- I consumed all the knowledge I could during my paralegal trainee days. My commerce background also helped me grasp commercial concepts a lot more quickly and I was happy that I could to some extent, apply what I had learnt to what I intended to convert into a full-time career. I think that marriage of my educational background with my future career pretty much clinched my decision to make corporate law my career and before I knew, my plans to pursue MBA which I had decided as my subsequent career option vanished into oblivion! The few months which I had given myself converged into an association as a paralegal trainee for 2 years and I later got absorbed as a full-time associate on completing law school. Destiny definitely had other plans for me.

After spending almost a decade working as a corporate lawyer at DSK Legal, where you rose to the designation of Principal Associate, you took a short break before joining your new practice at Anand & Anand & Khimani. How was that decision rewarding on a personal as well as the professional front? Do you endorse the idea of career breaks?

Law is a demanding and all-consuming career. Most corporate lawyers almost never speak about back-to-back deal fatigue, the challenges of keeping up with an ever-evolving and fast work environment or the inability to consume knowledge at an exponential pace than one would ideally want to. Sometime during the latter part of 2018, I slowly but surely realised that I had completely lost the feeling of the adrenaline rush every new deal brought in. But the burning question was ‘how do you give up something that has been a part of your DNA for 11 odd years! Also, the fact that not too many lawyers take such decisions, makes one question their own! After a lot of thought, I realised that I wanted something more than being a full-time transaction lawyer and wanted to explore more hybrid opportunities that the profession had to offer. Also, although I pride myself on my ability to handle pressure, even the best have their worst days. I realised that I had burnt out and needed to take a step back- but one thing I was sure of was that I never really wanted out of the profession.

The decision was nothing short of liberating! Those 6 months helped me rejuvenate and do things that I had left behind me over the years. I focussed on rekindling my love for dance (I am a trained Bharatnatyam dancer), I travelled and spent a lot of time with friends and family, especially my then 3-year-old daughter. However, I consciously kept myself updated on legal developments- at least to the extent I could. Like I said earlier, corporate law is a way of life for me and I always knew I was going to bounce back so keeping in touch with developments was something that came very naturally to me.

I strongly believe that you attract what you are. A good and positive frame of mind always leads to sound decision making and before I knew I found myself speaking with Priyanka (lead partner of Anand & Anand and Khimani) in whom I found a kindred spirit. A few coffees and several discussions later, I embarked on a new professional journey with Priyanka in November 2019 and it remains my best decision till date.

Are career breaks for everyone? I honestly don’t think so. I have met lawyers who still thrive on the excitement and rush that every new deal brings, in spite of spending several decades in the profession. Every individual is different and it is a very personal decision to make- however, I firmly believe that the decision must be taken not on an impulse but with reasonable thought and planning. Please ask yourself some very important questions before you take the plunge-Like (i) How would you explain a break to your next employer? (ii) Are you financially prepared to be out of a job? If yes, for how long can you sustain? (iii) Is it fatigue/burn out or is it just a situation of ‘being done’ with a particular organisation? Would working with different people solve what you are exactly feeling? Be honest with yourself and you will be able to decide whether you are really ready for that break or not.

Many people focus on finding the right mentor, a senior who can train and groom them as their responsibility. Where does your search stop when it comes to finding the right mentor?

Word of mouth. The traditional way of getting information about your potential senior/partner (who will eventually become your mentor if you are lucky!) is never going to change. You have to speak to people within the profession and understand your potential employer/organisation’s work ethics, cultural fits, team structure etc. Law firms especially are very individually driven organisations and it is imperative to get some knowledge about the person you will potentially be working with. I would also like to add something very important for future lawyers here: Give yourself some time to figure whether a place is really a fit for you or not- especially if you have done your homework and submitted yourself to a place very consciously. Law firms have volatile environments and sometimes you may have just caught your senior/partner in between something very pressing. Under those circumstances, certain situations may not elicit a reaction from them in the way you hoped for. Give your senior/partner some time-just the way they are giving you that time to acclimatise. Don’t instantly judge a senior/partner based on a couple of instances. Judge your experience over a period of a few months and then determine whether you have indeed found a mentor or not.

You have a demonstrated history of working in the M&A niche for more than a decade, including advising high profile clients. Could you share how you manage such high stake matters?

Apart from a strong legal acumen (which is a given), being a lawyer requires you to be mentally strong and possess the ability to think on your feet. Knowledge can be acquired by reading up and spending a lot of time in gaining an understanding of various concepts, which is of course an integral part of being a lawyer. But the other skill sets which keep you going even at 3 am when you need to see a transaction through, is acquired with years of being a part of such situations. The one thing that I have learnt and consistently observed in the 13 odd years of my career is that you are never going to have ample time to ‘think through’ most of the time. This is where a mentor in your growing years plays an important role. You get the opportunity to learn and observe how your senior/partner deals with tight situations and this automatically becomes a part of your skillset over the years. I have had the opportunity to have worked with some absolutely fantastic legal minds at different stages of my career and that has contributed to making me the lawyer I am today.

How has the transition been for you from working shoulder to shoulder with corporate lawyers on M&A to establishing the practice in general corporate? What are the roadblocks and the lessons that you’d like readers to learn from your journey?

As a hardcore PE/M&A lawyer one doesn’t get too much of an opportunity to dabble in a lot of general corporate work, at least not on a daily basis. Today, I thoroughly enjoy speaking with 10 different clients in a day and helping them with legal and commercial issues that they encounter on a regular basis. It almost feels like being a general counsel for every client and I would not have it any other way! Having said this, I still do a lot of transaction work and undertake deals of varied sizes for clients- it’s been a part of my career trajectory for too long for me to be completely out of it! Additionally, leading a practice is a huge responsibility- time management, team management, administrative governance, social media presence, networking- the list goes on!

I would therefore not really call it a transition for me as a lawyer- it is just a wider spectrum of roles and responsibilities within the same area of law.

My advice to young lawyers (and one thing I really wished I had paid attention to) is to assess your career every 4 years as a lawyer. Pause and reflect. You will realise you don’t want something at 28 when you were very sure of wanting that same ‘something’ at 22. As years pass by (which believe me you, fly past when you are a lawyer), you will realise that your thought process has changed, priorities have shifted and what you want of your career, is perhaps not the same as when you began. Take that time to assess your growth and expectations and once you made a decision, live by it come what may. Like I mentioned before, law is a demanding career and if you are signing up to something, do it wholeheartedly and very consciously. After that, don’t second guess and give it your 200%. One more thing to also bear in mind is that monetary standing doesn’t determine growth. It is a part of your assessment but not the only determinant. Always remember that, while money seems alluring at 25, it may not be so when you are 35. One, therefore, needs to make a holistic decision when it comes to determining career growth and not make an assessment merely on monetary terms.

In the top 200 US law firms, women make up only 14% of equity partners. Does this trend cascade in India as well? Do you see it changing anytime soon?

We don’t have any critical data in India to support this, but from whatever one can observe, the numbers do seem diminutive. Even today when you walk into a room for negotiations, you will find fewer women compared to men. There is no denying the fact that there is an obvious imbalance and a high female talent fallout ratio even today. But my general observation also has been that we are taking baby steps to fix this mismatch. To cite an example closer home, at Anand & Anand & Khimani, 95% of the associates are women! Priyanka firmly believes and I second that growth is gender-neutral, and does not have to be compromised because of gender roles or responsibilities. I also think women nowadays are far more prepared and better equipped to handle changing personal situations which invariably used to be considered a deterrent and lead them to take a back seat professionally. As women, we generally hesitate in self-promotion. However, women are now consciously putting themselves forward to seek recognition along with being hardworking and ambitious. The trend is emerging, yet promising and I am positive it is here to stay.

Lastly, any parting words of advice for our readers?

I have tried to build in tips for young lawyers in course of this conversation wherever relevant. However, the one thing I can’t stop impressing upon is- Pick a mentor and not a firm. Working with the right person is very important in your growing years and phenomenally helps in shaping you as a lawyer. So make an informed choice of where and whom you want to work with. Secondly- Have an open mind and consume everything that you learn and see in a way that you will never forget. Before you know the world will be your oyster!

There are also a couple of leadership skills I would love to see amongst us senior professionals. I wouldn’t say these skills are completely absent, but they aren’t still largely prevalent. The most important of them is empathy. The profession is hard enough and a measured amount of compassionate leadership would take us a long way in building a more sustainable workplace. The stress and burnout caused by the pandemic speak volumes about why a high degree of importance needs to be placed on this quality.

It would be great for firms to also continue to promote work from home/hybrid workspaces and flexible work hours. While the pandemic forced us into a corner on this one, this is something that has been the need of the hour in law firms for years now. I constantly hear more and more young lawyers mention that flexibility should be an ingrained work culture for lawyers, given the long hours spent at work which in turn ends up causing a direct impact on health and personal life. There is no substitute for physical presence, but it is important to realise that it is not always required and therefore I am a strong advocate of a hybrid work culture (part office/part home). Flexibility in terms of time and place of work enhances work-life balance, could lead to better work satisfaction and possibly less attrition, which is a glaring issue for most law firms till date.

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September 16, 2021
ADVOCATE ANJALI CHATURVEDI ON BEING A 2ND-GENERATION LAWYER, FORMER JUDGE AT THE DISTRICT CONSUMER DISPUTES REDRESSAL FORUM AND BALANCING LIFE & WORK
This interview has been published by Isam Kabir and The Super Lawyer team. The Interview was taken by Raunak Chaturvedi and Ankita Sen.
1. We know you as a Judge and an Advocate. Would you like to share something else about yourself?
Definitely yes– a mother and a home manager too. I have many more aspects attached to my personality, apart from the abovementioned. I am a sitarist and a dholak percussionist by hobby. I also have some training in Sanskrit. In total, I know five languages. I am also a philosopher and love to write short pieces about the meaning of life and the mechanisms of the cosmos. I also love to cook and always keep trying new recipes.

I also have many ‘firsts’ attached to my name. I am the first woman in my family to become an Advocate and the first person to become a Judge. I am the first and, to date, the only woman in the entire Chaturvedi community to become a Judge. I am also the first woman from my ancestral village, Holipura (U.P.), to become an Advocate and the first person to become a Judge. In my in-laws’ family, too, I am the first person to become a Judge.
1. What are the pros and cons of being a second-generation Advocate?
The first problem of being a second-generation Advocate is that you have the first-generation Advocate, either your mother or your father, with you. They either keep guiding you so much that you are not able to apply your mind, OR they go silent totally, and you continue to act as their assistant merely.

The second problem is, if you are working with your first-generation Advocate, then you seldom get an opportunity to collect fees for your contributions. If you claim fees, your relations start growing tense immediately after that.

However, it is not that everything is wrong in being a second-generation Advocate.

You get a wonderful advantage by being a second-generation Advocate- a conducive atmosphere to work and learn amid the full-time guidance of your mother or father and their colleagues too!

My father being the first-generation Advocate in my case, I had the opportunity to avail myself of his guidance and work alongside his colleagues. I had a lifetime opportunity of witnessing the advocacy of many prominent and eminent Advocates who either got promoted to the positions of High Court Justices, Chief Justices or high-profile Government Counsels. My father himself was made the Assistant Solicitor General of India for Bombay High Court, Nagpur Bench.
1. What motivated you to take Law as a career?
Everyone in his youth wants to fight for justice and the truth. Those who get an opportunity do it in their possible ways through their protests. For me, the Courts were the best and meaningful place to fight for justice, and hence I adopted Law as my profession. Besides, after witnessing my father and his workings from birth, I had no interest in anything but advocacy.
1. Tell us about your experience working as an Acting President and a Judge at the District Consumer Disputes Redressal Forum.
I was the first lady Member appointed for the Kolkata Unit-II Forum. Within a few months of my joining, the then President and the male Member retired, and one new male Member was appointed.

As per the Statute, I being the senior Member, was under an obligation to discharge the duties of the President too.

This helped me gain the confidence of working independently while administering the Forum and taking care of all case-related matters with a prompt note of the decision.

I introduced the mentioning hour concept in my Forum and ensured transparent working in my Forum. The Department of Consumer Affairs appreciated me for my positive efforts.

One fascinating incident which occurred during my tenure was that when I was newly appointed, I observed that only the President was being provided with the facility of the Government car.

However, the Act clearly mentioned that all the facilities (except the honorarium) were the same for everyone, be it the President or the Members.

On objecting to this, I still remember the then President of my Forum saying, ‘Sheta toh apnar jonno noy, amra retired District Judges, tai amra gadi pabo. Apnader jonno na’, which if translated from Bengali means, ‘That (car) is not for you, we are retired

District Judges, that’s why we will get the car. Not for you (Members)’. I immediately made a representation before the Chief Secretary of the Consumer Affairs Department. He very readily accepted my interpretation of the statute and sent it to the Centre for being approved. Within a few days, the approval was done, and my letter became an Official Order. All the Members across the State of West Bengal were being provided with a car, and still are being provided with this facility, only because of my letter and interpretation of the law.

Advocate Anjali at Administrative Training.
1. Tell us about three challenges you faced for being the first female Judge from your family?
I can say I was newly married – just four years then. I was still in the process of striking a balance between my work and my family relations.

During my working period, my son was born in 2001, and my mother-in-law had a cerebral stroke which confined her into bed with her right side paralyzed.

To strike a balance between the working and the family responsibilities, I got one room of our flat converted into a nursing home with all the required medical gadgets installed, starting from a nebulizer to an oxygen support system and appointed trained nurses to look after her round the clock. She survived for almost 7 years after that.

I used to prepare her food myself before leaving for my Forum around 9.30 am. My father-in-law was great support after my leaving for the Forum till I returned in the evening or late in the afternoon after completing the days’ work.

On returning, I used to look after my son and my other family members too.
1. Tell us about your three challenging cases? What were the challenges you faced while working on them?
During my tenure, cases of medical negligence, electricity-related matters were in plenty.

While dealing with Medical Negligence cases, it was necessary to ascertain the real negligence factor and then pass the orders. Otherwise, any wrong order passed may deprive the complainant or put stigma against a doctor who is otherwise a one-man industry. Those were the days when patient parties also used to file cases for recovering their fees paid by putting illogical or false allegations against the doctors. Forums were then being considered as pro-consumers. So, it was a challenge to screen the cases, especially in medical negligence matters.

On one occasion, I had an excessive billing case against a famous telecommunications company. The bill amount was above Rs. 2 lacs (almost Rs.2.5 lacs) for one month, and the service provider claimed the correctness of his bill and insisted on the payment. I was bewildered to see such a heavy bill for a personal mobile connection.

In deciding this case, I first worked out with the then pulse rate charges and the talking time for which the bill was raised. It was observed that if the subscriber talked continuously, day and night, all through the month, even then, the bill would not have reached that figure.

The billing was done for national calls, and there were no international calls billed. This made my calculations easy. This fact was questioned during the case proceedings from the service provider with the doubt that should we consider it as an exercise by the service provider to raise exaggerated bills before half-yearly publishing of half-yearly unaudited results of the company to increase the receivables and thus the profitability to get a better share value in the market. Should we recommend enquiry into the billing affairs of the service provider? The message went clear to the service provider.

He returned on the next date with the affidavit that there has been a system error while generating the bills and that they are ready to correct the bill amount to read as Rs.2000/- against the bill raised of above Rs.2 lacs. He admitted that a few lacs of bills with that high figure had been generated, and they are ready to correct those also.

The matter was clear.

I insisted that they publish the stand being taken in the daily newspaper regarding the bills as submitted before us so that all those who have not come to the Forum are also relieved. In deciding this case, my B.Com studies helped to crack the problem.

Now let me take two examples from my initial years at the Nagpur High Court. Once a person had come to us regarding a matter about the Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances (N.D.P.S.) Act. The accusation was that he had been caught transporting drugs.

When my father argued the matter, the presiding Judge specifically asked for me to argue the case. When the Judge asked me to argue, I became tremendously nervous, as those were my initial days, and I was not very used to arguing such complicated criminal matters. Thus, I prayed to him for some time to prepare and argued to the best of my ability on the next date. However, due to the strong incriminating evidence, we could not win the case; it was a great experience for me.

Another such case had happened within a few days of my joining the Bar. It was a property matter. When my father went to argue, the presiding Judge asked my father to ‘sit down and let her junior argue’. I was up. Again, I did not know anything about the matter. His Lordship himself asked me to take a week to prepare and argue the matter again. What finally happened with that case has slipped my memory, but I had argued the case quite fiercely, as much as I remember.
1. After a few months from your appointment, your husband, Advocate Anurag Chaturvedi, also joined a different Forum as a Judge. Would you like to tell us about the three incredible events that you’ve had during that time?
We made history as both husband and wife being selected during almost the same period for different Fora.

We went to Delhi for our judicial training together. During the training sessions, we had the opportunity of interacting with retired Supreme Court Justices. We suggested a few Amendments in the Consumer Protection Act, 1986, to make it stronger. To our surprise, those recommendations were accepted, and the C.P. Act was amended in a very short span thereafter.

I was privileged to head the lady Members’ wing, and my husband was asked to lead the male Members’ group.

Advocate Anjali at Consumer Seminar.
1. Would you like to tell us about your experience of working as an Arbitrator for M.M.T.C., Kolkata?
It was quite interesting and not very difficult to work with them. Altogether it was a comfortable exercise at my end.
1. You have perfectly balanced your life between working as a Judge, an Advocate and a mother? What would be your advice for mothers who find it difficult to work as an Advocate?
Children are the gift of God. Almighty is always there with us to give us strength to rare them up. Balance your hours between family and work and let the child grow under your kisses and blisses.

And be a proud mother.

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September 7, 2021