Category: Associates, In-House Counsels and Advocates

  • Shine Joy, Deputy Manager-Legal, Snapdeal, on work as in-house counsel

    Shine Joy, Deputy Manager-Legal, Snapdeal, on work as in-house counsel

    Shine Joy graduated from Guru Gobind Singh Indraprastha University in 2008 and had thereafter worked with various law firms including MV Kini & Co., Akash Chittranshi & Associates and Ranjan Narula Associates (Part of Rouse & Co. International). He also holds an experience of an Assistant Manager- Legal at DLF Utilities Ltd. He currently works as a Deputy Manager – Legal at Snapdeal.

    Over here, he talks about:

    • The appropriate time in law school to undertake internships
    • Making the switch from a law firm to a company
    • Why it is okay and even desirable to change multiple jobs
    • Working at e-commerce giant Snapdeal

     

    What got you into legal studies? Was it all planned or something that just happened by chance?

    It was pure chance! I come from a typical south Indian family who would have loved an engineer son; so pursuing law as a career option was never on the table as such. However, a chance interaction with a friend made me think about law as an option.

     

    How was your experience at GGSIPU? What activities were you involved in apart from the regular academic curriculum?

    College days can never be anything but good; especially when you are in a law college which is located close to CP, GK and other hot spots for youngsters in Delhi

    (GGSIPU and my college – ‘University School of Law and Legal Studies were located in Kashmere Gate Campus when I was pursuing law; it has since been shifted to Dwarka Sec 14.)

    Apart from regular academic curriculum I was involved with the college Moot Court Society because of which I had the privilege of representing my college in four moots court competitions. I was also a member of the editorial board of the University magazine – ‘Adamya’.

     

    What were your major interests as a student of law? Any suggestions for the law students on how to deal with the Pandora box of laws?

    I was very much interested in Intellectual Property Laws during my college days. Fortunately during those days the law relating to trademarks & copyrights were being constantly debated in the courts across our country. This only fuelled my passion for the same subject.

    I wouldn’t call law a Pandora’s box. It is more of Santa’s sack of toys! What I mean to say is law is such a diverse field with so many subject areas that you have the option of experimenting and zeroing on the one you may fall in love with.

     

    How should one go about the internships? How important it is for a law student to plan out the course of his internships to successfully gain from the internship experience?

    Internships are important as what we learn in college does not completely prepare us for what happens on the ground. Internships do give us a glimpse into the life an actual lawyer lives on a day-to-day basis. However, I would suggest undertaking internships from the 3rd year (of the 5-year course) onwards only since by then one would have studied both the substantive and procedural law. This gives you a better understanding of what is happening in the practice of law.  The idea is to enjoy the fun side of college and academics for the first two years of college while you are also acquainted to law as a subject, then go on to intern and eventually work as a lawyer.

     

    After graduation you worked with various firms including MV Kini & Co., Akash Chittranshi & Associates and Ranjan Narula Associates. How was your experience working at these places?

    MV Kini & Co. gave me the opportunity to intern with them and be involved in an Associate’s work profile even before enrolling as a lawyer, so to continue there as an associate after enrolling was an obvious choice. Also, the firm gave me immense exposure to litigation practice, infrastructure and corporate work. However, I had a keen interest in being an IPR lawyer and was motivated me to join Akash Chittranshi & Co. which was a leading firm in copyright laws.

    The time spent at Akash Chittranshi & Co. equipped me and developed my skills as an IPR lawyer. It is then that I got an offer to join Ranjan Narula Associates (which is an associate office of Rouse & Co. International – an international IP law firm). Letting go of an opportunity to work with the best in industry and amazing international clientele was not something I would even dream of doing. My work experience  at each of these firms have enhanced my skills immensely as lawyer and gave me a chance to work under the guidance and with some of the best lawyers in the business.

     

    Thereafter you joined DLF Utilities Ltd. as an Assistant Manager- Legal. What led to the shift from law firms to a real estate company? How was your experience working there?

    While working as an attorney with Ranjan Narula Associates, I had the privilege of interacting with some of the best in-house counsels in the world. These interactions made me realize that often while advising their clients, lawyers have a myopic view of how businesses look at legal issues faced by them. It is imperative that lawyers should understand the business implications of their advice. So when an opportunity came to work as an in-house lawyer for a leader in real estate business and with seniors who are widely respected for their work, it was difficult to say no.

     

    Currently you work as a Deputy Manager-Legal at Snapdeal. How did the switch from DLF take place?

    Currently I work as Deputy Manager – Legal (got promoted in Oct 2014). I live by the mantra ‘what next? I believe that one should always strive to learn more and more and gain as much experience one can get so that one is moulded into a better professional who can give the best possible advice to his client. Therefore, when I got an opportunity work with Snapdeal – which was a pioneer in the e-commerce sector, I thought that it would be an immensely enriching experience for me as a professional. I would also get to deal with issues in a sector which was both new and fascinating.

    As Snapdeal had chalked out plans of expansion when I was offered the job, the offer was more like a door to hands-on work in a plethora of legal issues that a growing entity would be involved in.

     

    How did your appointment take place? Please tell us about the recruitment process at Snapdeal. What do they look for in their prospective employees?

    I was contacted by the HR department of Snapdeal. The company conducts three rounds of interview before extending an offer to a prospective employee.

     

    What does your current work profile at Snapdeal consist of? How is a typical workday like?

    At Snapdeal I am involved mainly in high stake litigation matters, IPR issues and M&A activities. I also advise on issues pertaining to commercial contracts, advertising and real estate.

     

    Are there new challenges everyday or has work settled into a predictable pattern? Can you tell us about a few of the most challenging problems you have faced so far?

    To my understanding and experience a lawyer’s day at work can never be predicted, each day the nature of issues dealt with and work undertaken are different. As to challenges, every day is welcomed with a new one.

     

    What amount of legal work is there? What have been your failures and successes?

    Almost 95% of my work is legal. Recently, we were successful in defending the company against allegation of anti-competition activities before the Competition Appellate Tribunal.

     

    How do you keep yourself abreast with latest industry news and trends?

    I do so by perusing through standard industry journals, following blogs, attending national and international conferences etc.

     

    Lastly, what would be your parting message for our readers?

    Work is important but having a ‘life’ outside of work is more important.

  • Radhika Seth, Associate, Competition Law, Saikrishna & Associates on pursuing law after B.Com

    Radhika Seth, Associate, Competition Law, Saikrishna & Associates on pursuing law after B.Com

    Radhika Seth completed a B. Com from Delhi University and got placed at KPMG, but having enjoyed studying a few legal subjects during under-graduation, she enrolled herself at the Campus Law Centre evening classes for the three-year law course. She participated in moots, was a part of the student body at DU and made time for numerous internships. Upon graduating, she started working at Saikrishna & Associates in the competition law department.

    Here, she talks about:

    • Comparing the three-year course with the five-year course in law
    • How to manage time between extra-curriculars and academics at law school
    • Being President of the Student Union at Delhi University
    • The field and scope of competition law in India

     

    How would you like to introduce yourself?

    I am a struggling lawyer who aims to be a specialist in competition law. I am currently working as an Associate with the competition law vertical at Saikrishna & Associates.

     

    When and how did you decide to study law? Which universities did you consider for your legal studies? How did you settle for LC-II, DU?

    Law really happened by chance for me, or to put it more philosophically, I feel I was destined to be a lawyer. I wanted to study commerce after school and so I took up B. Com (Hons) at Delhi University. At my under-graduate level, I studied various subjects like business management and accounting but more importantly, mercantile and company law.

    Surprisingly, I got more interested in the law related subjects than the typical commerce related subjects. It was then that I started experiencing a change of heart for law. It so happened that during my third year of B. Com(Hons), I was the first to be placed at KPMG from college and was almost convinced by everyone around me to join it, out rightly. And I did exactly that! But I also, fortunately, gave the law entrance at Delhi University for Faculty of Law during the same year to explore my interest for legal studies.

    I got a good rank to be able to opt for a college of my choice and so I chose Law Centre-II, which is the evening Centre of Faculty of Law, as it allowed me to work at KPMG and simultaneously attend classes in the evening. I pursued both Audit (at KPMG) and Law (as a student in Faculty of law) for six months. This was my transition period when I actually weighed life of an Auditor or someone working as an MBA vis-a-vis the life of a lawyer. And for me, I chose the life of a lawyer for the excitement and the rush that it brings.

    So, frankly, I didn’t consider going to any other college as for a three year law course, Faculty of law is one of the few good options available in this country apart from Government Law College, Mumbai or ILS, Pune.

     

    As a graduate of Delhi University, have you faced any comparison with the NLUs? What would you say to the future graduates of DU regarding this?

    Amongst the alumni of National Law Universities, one would generally feel a bias. They’re sometimes given preference for internships or even jobs. But in the end it’s your work which determines your worth. Of course, National Law Universities provide better opportunities in terms of better funding, infrastructure, exchange programs etc. but if you have the zeal to achieve something and the knack to learn, then no such bias would come in your way. Delhi University has its own charm and different learning opportunities. It sets you free and allows you to think out of the box. I would say, discover these opportunities and make your own way.

     

    How was your first year after graduation? How did you learn the ropes and what were the biggest challenges you faced?

    Generally, first year after graduation seems like a sea change from the college atmosphere that one is used to. For me, it wasn’t that difficult. I started working at KPMG right after B. Com (Hons) and interned all along my law school. By the time I graduated from law school, I was already aware as to what is expected out of a first year law graduate.

    I always took my internships pretty seriously and would try to intern for more than two months at one particular place. This really helped me to work on a particular case thoroughly. As a first year Associate, you’re definitely expected to be a good researcher, a swift learner, someone who is able to adapt to the work environment quickly. In my view, if you take your internships seriously, your first year of work would be the best year.

     

    You were the President of the Student Union at DU. What skills did you hone while managing such a responsibility?

    It was a life changing experience for me! I learnt a lot about people during that period. I organized various programs and events in college during that time, some of them were first-time initiatives. During the process, I interacted with all kinds of people coming from various parts of India and even the world. As a lawyer, it is very important to be able to understand your clients, your seniors and the judge. Being at the highest post a student can hold in Delhi University, made me understand the importance of going to the root of a problem or a given case. This always helps in devising better solutions to a given problem at hand.

     

    How important do you think are extra-curriculur activities in shaping the career of a law student?

    I feel these are pivotal to the development of a law student. While mooting and debating allows a budding lawyer to hone his/her public speaking skills, publications and research papers help in developing researching and reading skills. They also help in getting in-depth and out of textbook knowledge about a topic. These are some qualities which always come handy to a lawyer.

     

    How did you manage to keep up your grades? What are the tips and strategies you would like to share with mooters?

    I always chose those moots which were at least a month before or after my exams. Choosing a moot court competition which has a case problem related to your course curriculum also helps. I am also almost obsessed with pre-planning things. Making a moot calendar and preparing for the exams before-hand would obviously help.

     

    Soon after graduation, you joined Saikrishna and Associates as an Associate. How did your appointment take place? Tell us about the interview process and how did you prepare for it?

    After my graduation, I applied at various places including Saikrishna & Associates. I got interview calls from various places including Saikrishna. I gave one round of interview and was selected to work with the competition law vertical of the firm. For interview preparations, I would just brush up my memory for the core subjects of law such as constitutional law, the CPC and laws pertaining to my areas of interest which are IPR and competition law. During an interview, it’s always much easier if you be yourself, be confident of what you know and be honest in case you’re clueless about a particular question.

     

    What does your current work profile at Saikrishna and Associates consists of? How is a typical workday like?

    I am working as an Associate in the competition law vertical of the firm. My day starts by 10 am and generally doesn’t end before 8 pm. It also sometimes extends to working from home at night. As of now, I have been doing different types of tasks every day. Sometimes, it consists of drafting of an opinion for competition law compliance, giving information, defending your client at the CCI or attending client meetings etc.

     

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    Are there new challenges everyday or has work settled into a predictable pattern?

    In fact, taking from the previous question, I would say there is no typical workday at Saikrishna for me. Almost every day I am learning something new. This is also because competition law is relatively new in India and everyone is grappling with its practical applicability to the evolving nature of business transactions.

     

    What are the primary professional ethics you follow while at work? How do you deal with mistakes or errors?

    I always try to be punctual and geared up for work. It helps me be up-to-date and meet regular deadlines. I keep my seniors informed about the progress of the work and also about any delay before-hand. Replying promptly to e-mails and being honest with your boss always helps in building a good relationship. I try to always concede and own up whenever I make mistakes or errors and I make a note of them on my pin board so that I don’t repeat it again.

     

    Would you say your undergraduate B.Com degree has been helpful in your career?

    Yes, definitely. I still believe that a three year law program is a better call to make. For e.g. in my B.Com degree, I studied about business management, planning and other tools which help in business decision making. As a competition or a corporate lawyer, it is very important to understand the rationale of a particular business decision to further comment upon its legal validity. My B.Com studies have helped me a lot in reading financial statements and understanding decision making techniques.

     

    What kind of internship applications do you think stand out positively and enjoy a much higher likelihood of being accepted?

    I think the CV should reflect some productive activities which the candidate has been doing through law school. It does not necessarily need to be all subject related, it could be some organisational experience or even extra – curricular activities. Participation in moot courts, debate competitions, definitely gives extra brownie points. One is not expected to be consistent in the types of internships, e.g. litigation or corporate, but it is necessary that the CV reflects an effort on the part of the candidate to learn new things.

     

    If you could re-live your 3 years in Law school, is there something you would do differently?

    Not really. It’s the best time of your life and I enjoyed it thoroughly. If anything, I would say I should have enjoyed it even more than I did.

     

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    Where do you see yourself ten years down the line? Do you aspire to be like somebody from this field?

    As I said, I am struggling to be a specialist in Competition law. After ten years, I would like to introduce myself as a specialist in competition law. I like the way Justice Krishna Iyer writes his judgments and I like the swiftness with which Mr. Salve argues. It would be a great achievement for me if I am able to be even a small part of what they are.

     

    What would be your advice to students interested in competition law?

    It is an emerging law in India, very interesting and intriguing. One has a huge scope of growth in this law in India. IPR and competition law make an interesting intersection which is worth studying. Law students interested in competition law should read a lot about the emerging concerns and possibly intern with competition law verticals of firms.

  • Zaid Zain, Associate, General Corporate Practice, AMSS, on law school, pursuing certificate and diploma courses and work

    Zaid Zain, Associate, General Corporate Practice, AMSS, on law school, pursuing certificate and diploma courses and work

    Zaid Zain is an Associate at Amarchand Mangaldas, Chennai. He is a corporate lawyer in their General Corporate Practice Group with a specialized focus on Technology and Media. Zaid graduated from ILS Law College, Pune in 2012.

    Zaid has also done several Diploma Courses including Diploma in Securities and Investment Law, Corporate Finance, Mergers and Acquisitions and Intellectual Property Law. In this interview he talks about:

    • Studying at ILS Law College, Pune
    • The relevance of additional courses
    • Interning and working at Amarchand Mangaldas

     

    How would you introduce yourself? Could you please share a little bit of what motivated you to pursue law as a career?

    My name is Zaid Zain, I am a corporate lawyer in the General Corporate Practice Group of Amarchand and Mangaldas, with a specialized focus on Technology and Media. I have been involved with some M&A deals and have also worked on a few capital market transactions. However, as stated above, my primary focus is on Technology Law, which comprises of drafting software-licensing agreements, ‘software as a service’ agreements (SAAS) and hardware procurement agreements amongst others. I thoroughly enjoy working in the technology space, as I feel it is a thought provoking and trend setting practice area to be in.

    As regards my motivation to do law, throughout my life I have always been interested in the idea of being an advisor / trusted confidant. I always felt that it was both incredibly powerful and highly fulfilling to strategize and find ways to help people / corporations solve problems. I was a regular at debating competitions in school and this experience further helped steering me towards a career in law.

     

    How did you make the initial shift from a science background to law? Would you say it was difficult settling in?

    To be honest, I did not find it difficult at all. I was always sure that I did not want to be an engineer. I didn’t particularly hate science, just that I wanted a career that was more socially oriented. As a lawyer, I love the fact that I get to constantly interact with people from various countries, companies and backgrounds.

    Besides, I feel that my science background gives me better intelligibility while working in the technology arena. I feel that terms, concepts and methodologies related to technology come more intuitively to me because of my science background.  The reality is that we are moving towards an ever more technology centric world. It already touches every aspect of an entity, and going forward I feel that technology law will become a formidable practice area.

     

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    Tell us about your college life at ILS Law College, Pune. Which activities did you partake in? Please tell us about the manner in which you approached academics while in college.

    In all honesty, college was the defining period in my life. It was in college that I truly underwent a transformation from being a dreamer to a go-getter. I had the privilege of being taught contracts by the legendary Mrs. Nilima Bhadbade. I would give her and my other teacher most of the credit for where I am today in my career.

    As for activities, I took part in various moot competitions and excelled in them. It was quite a rewarding experience too. It gave me valuable insight on how to analyze and apply a particular law as opposed to just reading it.

    I was also fortunate to be amongst friends who were intellectually stimulating. We would spend hours debating various legal, political and policy related subjects. This helped me develop the ability to think beyond the realm of normalcy while approaching and analyzing a topic. I also feel group-studies help law students immensely as we could bounce ideas off each other and face our tests/exams with much greater ease.

     

    What were your areas of interest during your graduation? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?

    At ILS, my areas of interest were corporate and securities law. I developed proficiency in these subjects by reading articles and scouring the web for information. I am an information junkie, I spend hours on the internet just researching. Whenever I found any topic difficult to comprehend, I would watch documentaries / videos on those topics and this would help me get a holistic and real world idea on the factors surrounding those topics. I also pursued a few diploma courses that helped me get vital insights into how corporations function and deal with each other.

     

    Did you find that your law school education had prepared you sufficiently for the many tasks you were required to execute during your internships and later at your job?

    Well, my law school education did give me a strong foundation on which I could build the skill sets required to work in a law firm. But as is the case with most professions – you learn as you go. While the subjects taught in college helps one get a grasp of the nature of the work, the real world application can only be understood while dealing with live situations on the job. For example, we all studied about board meeting and shareholders meeting in college, but it’s only when you work on the content of such meetings and its real world repercussion that you truly appreciate the value and criticality of such meetings.

     

    Currently, you work as an Associate at AMSS, Chennai. How did your appointment take place? What worked for you in securing the job?

    I had previously interned with Amarchand at their Chennai office. During my internship, I got the opportunity to get to know and work with the partner and associates in the office. I worked for them tirelessly and displayed the dedication and commitment required to meet their expectations. I spent long hours in the office and diligently executed whatever responsibilities I was tasked with. I also got along very well with the partner and associates in the office. By the end of my internship, I felt like I was part of their team. While I did not get the job immediately, I was promised a position as soon as a vacancy opened up and in less than a year or so, I got the break that I wanted.

     

    How was your first year after graduation? What do you think were the biggest hurdles and challenges in the early days of your career? How did you deal with them?

    The first year I would say was the toughest. That is the time when one makes the transformation from passively just studying law to actively practicing it. The biggest hurdle I would say is understanding various legal concepts and the manner and methodology involved in applying such concepts to a given situation. I found it difficult to go through volumes of documents and analytically process them within those stringent deadlines.

    However, the more I worked the simpler it became. I figured out shortcuts and methods to execute the work given to me quickly and resourcefully. I understood time is a big factor in this business, and how critical it is to prioritize matters that involved more risk and forego ones that drag down efficiency.

     

    What are the primary professional ethics you follow while at work? How do you deal with mistakes or errors?

    Contrary to popular belief, I feel that law and ethics go hand in hand. One must take responsibility for the work undertaken by them and never push someone else under the bus. This according to me is the most imperative ethical value for a lawyer to have. Also, one must always try to do their best for the client no matter what the situation. At no point should the client suffer due to any problems or issues that are personal to the lawyers working on a matter.

    Mistakes and errors are part and parcel of being a corporate lawyer. No lawyer is above mistakes regardless of his social standing. The key is to remember those mistakes and not repeat them in the future. There are days when a draft sent out is cleared instantly while on others there would be errors on the simplest of tasks. To sum up, one should not linger too much on mistakes and should be able to quickly adapt and move on.

     

    While in law school, you have also pursued many courses. Was it a professional requirement to enhance more in your career?

    While in college I had pursued various Diploma Courses including Diploma in Securities and Investment Law, Corporate Finance, Mergers and Acquisitions and Intellectual Property Law.

    To a certain extent I did undertake those diplomas to enhance my CV and add value to my profile. At the same time, I also wanted to know and understand these areas of law, as I found them to be fundamental to the functioning of corporations.

     

    Please comment on the quality and structure of these courses. How much practical knowledge did you gain from it?

    I would say the quality of the courses was very good. Every lecture was very focused on the practical aspects of the topics. Most concepts were taught using case studies and I found this to be especially helpful. Also, the classes were very interactive and the Professors were keen on getting the students point of view on. This sort of interactive platform was very enriching and helped me get a deeper understanding whilst clearing a lot of doubts that I had.

     

    There is a considerable attrition rate at the top law firms, what do you think contributes to this? What has been your personal experience?

    I feel the attrition rate could be due to many reasons. Most people quit for personal reasons such as marriage, migration, sabbaticals etc. Others leave because they feel they want to jump in-house, change practice areas and sometimes even get into other career paths. In my experience, I have seen more of the former than the latter.

     

    Tell us about a case that you are particularly proud of. What steps do you take to prepare for a difficult case?

    There was this one capital market deal we did. It was one of the first QIPs after the New Companies Act kicked in. It was an exhilarating month where my colleagues and I spent countless days (and nights) working on the matter together. We were all quite exhausted by the end of it. However, once the deal launched we could not have been more thrilled and content.

     

    What is the current scenario of studying corporate law as a career option in India? What are the key qualities one should posses for becoming a corporate lawyer?

    I would say that the current scenario is ideal for a student to pursue corporate law. If there was one thing I could change it would be to include in the study of corporate law, lessons on the practical application of corporate and commercial hypotheses.

    I would say the key qualities one should possess for becoming a corporate lawyer are: (a) an analytical mind; (b) diligence at tasks; and (c) social skills. Sometimes, the greatest of solutions would be hidden in inconspicuous nuances. Therefore, a strong focus and attention to detail are also essential qualities for a corporate lawyer. Most importantly, one must also remain humble throughout their profession – keeps your eyes on the stars but your feet on the ground.

     

    What are the other related fields where a corporate lawyer can try hand apart from joining law firms and corporate houses?

    I would say public relations, management consultancy, policy and journalism are all fields that a corporate lawyer could excel in. It could also be a solid gateway to politics.

     

    Life for lawfirmites can be very hectic at times. What is your take on work-life balance? How do you unwind?

    Yes, it is a fairly accurate assessment that life can get very hectic for a corporate lawyer. While I do enjoy the thrill of having a fast paced life and a busy schedule; it can also be taxing at times. It is therefore imperative, that you make time to do the things you love and also make time for your loved ones. True to any profession, having a good work life balance is pivotal to feeling satisfied as a corporate lawyer.

    I unwind by watching movies and documentaries that engage me. I am also a big foodie and love going for a good meal, so I try to do that as often as possible. Occasionally, I attend social gatherings and find myself enjoying meeting and networking with people from diverse backgrounds.

     

    What would be your parting message to law students who want to be successful in corporate law?

    My advice to law students would be -Develop the quality of truly understanding the stuff taught to you and visualize ways in which it can be applied to real-life situations. Cultivate a ‘never give up’ attitude and have the courage to persevere against all odds.

     

  • Vatsal Gaur, Associate, Khaitan & Co., on receiving PPOs, induction and work at top law firms

    Vatsal Gaur, Associate, Khaitan & Co., on receiving PPOs, induction and work at top law firms

    Vatsal Gaur graduated from National Law University, Jodhpur in 2011. Having decided early on that he wanted to be a lawyer specializing in Mergers & Acquisitions and Private Equity, he interned with top-tier law firms such as Trilegal, AZB & Partners and J. Sagar Associates. He received two PPOs by the end of his third year. After graduation, he worked at J. Sagar Associates, Gurgaon for almost three years before joining Khaitan & Co., Mumbai in May, 2014. In this interview he talks about:

    • The importance of CGPA, moots, publications and debates for a legal career
    • Pursuing a career in corporate law
    • Working at top law firms like J. Sagar Associates and Khaitan & Co.

     

    Tell us a bit about your childhood. How did you decide to study law? Did you have lawyers in your family?

    I’ll answer the last question first. I’m a first generation lawyer. I do not have lawyers in the family. To be honest, law for me was just a choice I made out of high school – as with most kids out of school, we are all supposed to miraculously arrive at our future career paths, and mine happened to be law. I’m quite satisfied with my decision, though. When I connect the dots backwards, I don’t have many misgivings on my choice of career.

    I grew up in a modest background, and with both my parents being civil servants, it was always clear that I really had to make my own mark, and set my own goals. Law was one of those goals. I did not have a fall back option, and I am glad for it.

     

    Do you think having family members or mentors with a legal background help in this profession?

    Yes, most certainly. Having a legacy in any field is irreplaceable. I have read so many times how people quite casually disregard the benefit of a legacy. However, I wouldn’t like to mince words answering this question. In whatever field of law you are in, whether it is corporate or litigation, at the end of the day, contacts help. Equally competent individuals would most likely execute tasks with more or less equal efficiency. Business development and building a clientele is ultimately what sets you apart. And, it is here where having a legacy can be a major facilitator. Having said so, one must not feel disheartened with the lack of a legacy, and instead think of such a void as an opportunity to develop your own legacy. There are innumerable precedents of first generation lawyers who have done well for themselves, and who continue to do so.

     

    Tell us about your law school experience. Share some highlights from your college days that shaped you as a lawyer.

    I ranked in the bottom 15% of my batch in my first semester – maybe because I was experimenting with the ‘law school experience’, or maybe simply on account of youthful incredulity – it doesn’t matter. This had caused a major setback to me back then as I usually fared well in high school; however, in the same breath, I would also say that this was the most beneficial experience for me. I tasted what it felt like to not finish at the top, and what followed was a lot of toil and sweat and more toil and sweat to make amends. The race to the finish line, having started late, is what shaped me up.

    By third year, I had participated in some prestigious moot court competitions, broken ceilings that I thought existed (not literally!), published a fair number of articles (including in business dailies), gotten into public speaking, and of course, continued playing football.

    Not many know this (as I never made a big deal of it, and still would not like to), but I bagged two pre-placement offers before I completed my third year at law school from two of the leading national law firms (and a call back internship with the third, which too was very likely to have culminated into an offer). None of the holders of high CGPAs had an offer by third year.

    The only reason I am sharing this on this forum is to perhaps be a motivation for those who may feel they have been side-lined on account of not having grades. My word of advice to you is: Be a rebel, but not one without a cause. Instead, have a cause to back it.

    Therefore for me, the battles I fought in University, the reality checks I faced early on in my time there shaped me up tremendously. In fact, I feel living in a residential set up away from home (in environments which can get quite demanding as well as harshly competitive) greatly equipped me for life ahead.

     

    How did you fare in your academics at NLU, Jodhpur? Would you say a great CGPA is a necessity to kickstart a good career in the legal profession?

    Following from my response above, I eventually fared well in academics. However, due to the damage done to my GPA during first year, I didn’t finish in the top 10 percentile. At the same time, I finished high enough to be shortlisted for all campus recruitment opportunities. In the end, my CGPA never mattered.

    Would I say a ‘great’ CGPA is a necessity? – a big NO! A ‘good’ CGPA and a ‘balanced CV’ will help just as much, if not more. At least, this should hold true in case an individual is looking at being a transactional lawyer or a litigator.

    I feel the only place a ‘great’ CGPA helps is to secure a job at a UK magic circle firm or if you are keen on academics or, lastly, in securing scholarships/ funding for an LL.M programme. If you are interested in any of these, you should definitely have an eye out for your grades.

    At work, and in daily life, what matters is grit, confidence, hard work, more hard work, real time application of legal principles and the ability to be a problem solver. At many instances you will be faced with situations where you will need to back yourself consciously. Grades are forgotten once you start work just as high school grades are forgotten once you enter college.

     

    Conferences, debates and Moot Court Competitions – do you think participating in these extracurricular activities helps a student in the long run?

    Yes. I feel any form of self-expression is greatly rewarding. Having participated in a variety of conferences, moots and debates, I can dare say the experiences gained greatly helped me develop my legal skills ‘qualitatively’.

    Mooting taught me research and patience; parliamentary debating taught me how not to rely on rote learning, and instead learn the art of expanding on bullets; conferences helped me express myself in forums where I spoke in front of people much more experienced than me in the fields I chose to research.

     

    You have published a lot of papers in various prestigious journals. How should one go about writing papers and getting the same published? Can you give us a few tips to ace the art of paper writing?

    Writing for me started on account of being able to have a stronger CV, but as I went along, it just became a mode of self-expression for me, and I write just for the pleasure of such self-expression.

    I feel each one us have our own ways of self-expression, and I unfortunately do not profess to have ‘aced’ the art of paper writing, and I will, therefore, not be able to provide a one-size-fits-all tool-kit. However, what I could set out, are broad parameters that young authors should keep in mind when writing. Again, these too would vary on what forum one is addressing and your ultimate readers.

    Focus points are:

    • Have your aim straight. Know the point you want to make (similar to a moral to the story)
    • Clear expression
    • Lead your reader to your aim (i.e., to the moral of the story)
    • Do not overstress upon or overdo anything
    • Sophistication over sophistry; preciseness over verbosity

     

    Tell us how paper publishing and other co-curricular activities helped you in acquiring skills that are important for a successful legal career.

    I feel legal writing does play a positive influence in one’s legal career. Similarly, participation in other academic as well as non-academic co-curricular activities also has the effect of shaping your profile.

    At the end of the day, when you get out of law school, people will not recall what grades you have; what they will recall is your impact value. Solid mooting experience helps develop this facet. Similarly, legal writing greatly enables and facilitates drafting work.

     

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    What kind of internships did you do while you were a student? Any remarkable experiences during your internships that shaped your career choices later?

    I focused very early on, on pursuing corporate/ M&A internships. I was lucky to have secured some good internships to start with. I remember that I did not take a single vacation during law school and worked back to back to complete three internships each year. I feel my best internships were at AZB & Partners, J. Sagar Associates and Trilegal. I received a good amount of mentoring and challenging assignments. I was also given a great deal of responsibility, just what I needed as I was working my way up to a good CGPA after the initial hit.

    I feel all my internships had very many remarkable experiences, right from getting a ‘outstanding’ rating from Mr. Gopal Subramaniam during my internship at his office in my 2nd year of University to being able to work on PE/ VC term sheets and research on very contemporary corporate law issues during my internships at Trilegal and JSA.

    I feel I was lucky to have met some really good mentors who saw talent in me, and nurtured it. ‘That’ nurturing did for me, what law school could not – feed my thirst for knowledge and the practice of transactional law.

     

    After graduating from NLU, Jodhpur you had worked at J. Sagar Associates for almost 3 years and then joined Khaitan & Co in May of last year. Please tell us a little about your work profile at these firms and the responsibilities you have been entrusted with.

    Having set myself the goal of being a transactional lawyer, I joined the M&A/ PE team at JSA, Gurgaon. Given that I had started working in this area of corporate law pretty early on in my internships (as early as 2nd year of law school), I had a good hold on the core essentials. Also, given that I had received a PPO from JSA pretty early in law school, the gestation period for me was practically non-existent as I had done rigorous internships with the firm before joining it, where I worked more like an associate than an intern. This allowed me to get right into the thick of things very early on in my legal career. My first legal due diligence for a PE deal came to me in my 2nd week, and transaction documentation started by the end of the first month. I will always be grateful to the firm and my seniors for believing in me so early on and giving me the necessary impetus required in order to develop a quick and steep learning curve – one that I have greatly benefitted from.

    I made a shift to Khaitan & Co’s Mumbai office in May of 2014 and I have greatly enjoyed being part of this set-up. The firm is highly institutionalised and is run on a merit-based system where lineage and family is surmounted by meritocracy and integrity. Joining as a lateral, I have felt very welcomed by the establishment and my colleagues.

    My responsibilities at Khaitan & Co primarily involve advising private equity/ venture capital investors and private M&A players on their investments/ acquisitions, general regulatory advice around structuring of transactions, conducting and leading diligences, negotiating, vetting and preparing transaction documents, and finally, assisting in closing of transactions. We also advise some promoters and target companies during sell-side mandates where we need to change hats during negotiations. My responsibilities at JSA were broadly similar to those described above.

     

    Your main practice area covers Mergers & Acquisitions and Private Equity investments. What prompted you to choose these practice areas? Please share with our readers.

    I was always a bit of an outlier in University, insofar as I started on corporate/ M&A internship roles very early on while most of my batch mates were still being experimental (trying different kinds of internships). Therefore, by the end of 2nd year, I had pretty much decided that I wanted to be a transactional lawyer driving M&A and PE deals. Each of my internships from 2nd year until 5th year were ‘only’ with M&A teams of the various firms I interned with, and I made that choice at the time of applying to these firms. On account of this exposure (quite self-induced, in my case), M&A/ PE was the only natural choice for me.

    I don’t know if the above answer will help your readers, but I suppose what I could broadly state is that you should try and direct your internships. Not everyone is born to do corporate law. There are so many options in law firms – right from competition, tax, infrastructure, banking to intellectual property. Similarly, nowadays, the trend seems to be changing finally where a lot of law graduates from top law schools are opting for litigation over law firms.

    I will highly recommend law students to not follow the herd, and in fact, chose the branch of law that is of most interest. M&A/ PE interested me the most – it really was, and still is, that simple.

     

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    Corporate Law sometimes comes with a humongous workload. What made you gravitate towards this field? How do you manage the workload and your personal life?

    To be honest, I did not have much of a work-life balance in my first two years. I missed all important events – birthdays, anniversaries, the works, and all along I never seemed to mind. I really was a work horse (and do not regret it).

    But over time, I suppose one naturally realises how to prioritise things, and it is something that frankly everyone in the field is constantly trying to learn every day.

    To be honest here, in my view work-life balance is a major misnomer. And the reason I say this is simple. If you really think about it, 80% of our awake time is spent at work, so it is essential you enjoy your work. If you enjoy 80% of your awake time, you automatically enjoy 80% of your ‘life’ time. The balance 20% is what you really need to really think about, in my view, and make the most of!

    With so much information available online nowadays about how demanding different career lifestyles are, I am sure people are well familiarised with a lawyer’s work-life. And to this extent, all I would say is you just need to brace yourself for the long haul if corporate law is your chosen career path.

    I am not a very good example of someone who manages work and personal life too well, so unfortunately I will not be able to answer your last question. However, I would say that I do try and balance work with pleasure every now and then (just as most others also try and do), as it is vital to take a break and refresh yourself whenever you can.

     

    Many law students strongly believes that getting a job at one of the top 3 law firms is mostly about securing a high CGPA. Would you agree?

    After reading my responses above, I hope I can, to whatever extent possible, change this impression! Law firms recruit based on merit, and while a high CGPA is an easy way to assess merit, in practice, law firms do not see that in isolation. I feel having a good internship experience coupled with a well-rounded profile (which includes extra-curricular initiatives as described above) matters far more than just purely a high CGPA driven CV.

    Once you are in the grind (i.e., the workspace), it does not matter what your grades were. What matters is how well you perform, how well you execute deliverables, and how well you can display your skill set. To this end, a person with a well-rounded profile has far greater chances at excelling than someone who only has high grades to show on a CV – purely because the former kind has tested him or herself against far greater experiences and challenges, and is thus more ‘anti-fragile’ (to borrow from Nassim Nicholas Taleb).

    Notwithstanding any of what I have said, what matters most is how technically sound a to-be lawyer is – that is the single most important aspect that recruiters consider, and is irreplaceable as a skill set.

     

  • Adhirath Singh Palawat, Associate, Allen & Overy, on all about the magic circle firms

    Adhirath Singh Palawat, Associate, Allen & Overy, on all about the magic circle firms

    Adhirath Singh Palawat specializes in Mergers and Acquisitions at Allen & Overy. He graduated from National Law University Jodhpur with Honours in Business Law as well as the Mathur Amar Laxmi and Gopal Mal Mehta Memorial Gold Medals for his academic performance. He was also felicitated by the Ministry of Human Resources Development, Government of India for Excellence in Academics.

    He successfully applied to the Vacation Placement programme at both Allen & Overy and Herbert Smith Freehills. While working as a Legal Advisor at Allen & Overy, London, he underwent a six month secondment to Dubai, where he still works. In this interview he talks about:

    • Balancing academics and extra-curricular activities in law school
    • Building a career in corporate law
    • Vacation Placement, Training Contract and Secondment at Allen & Overy

     

    How would you introduce yourself? Could you please share a little bit of what motivated you to pursue law as a career?

    I never know how to answer this one! I’ll play it safe – I am originally from Jaipur; I did my LL.B from NLU, Jodhpur with Honours in Business Law; I presently work with Allen & Overy LLP.

    I was always fascinated by law as a subject because both my parents hold law degrees (though neither of them pursued a career in law), but I decided quite late to explore this academic interest as a career option. If I had to pin it down to something, I would say my interest in law arose because I have always perceived it to be an instrument of social change. Unlike the natural sciences, law is a subject by the people for the people and this aspect of ‘social contract’ always fascinated me. The other reason is that law is a subject that emphasises a lot on soft skills. To be a good lawyer, you need to possess much more than pure technical skills; this is something that resonated a lot with my views on education and what I wanted for myself professionally.

     

    Tell us a little about your law school days at National Law University, Jodhpur? How would you compare NLUJ with other law schools?

    I don’t think I am in a position to objectively compare NLUJ with any other university, but in absolute terms, I look back on my five years at university as the best years of my life (so far). Like any other opportunity in life, university experience is only as good or bad as you make it to be. Are there universities with a better brand name than NLUJ out there? Of course. Does that really make a difference in your quality of education/life and options in the long run? I don’t think so.

    Learning from your peers is an underrated concept in our education system. I personally was thankful for the opportunity to meet so many brilliant people, each impressive in his or her own unique way, be it in academics, mooting, debating or creative pursuits. I think I learnt much more outside the classroom than inside. There are always things one could do differently but, all in all, I had a fulfilling experience.

     

    Upon graduation you received the Mathur Amar Laxmi Gold Medal and the Gopal Mal Mehta Memorial Gold Medal for your CGPA. Please tell us about the manner in which you approached academics while in college.

    I believe one’s academic experience is largely dependent on personal targets and what one wants out of the university experience. Although I was always keen to learn more and gain as much knowledge as possible, I was never in constant pursuit of knowledge; in my view that is insatiable. Time is a precious commodity and everything comes at a cost. I made a very conscious decision to prioritise and divide my time among the various activities I was involved in. I approached knowledge as a means to an end and not an end in itself.

    The truth is that any profession, law included, is result oriented. There are different ways of achieving it as long as you are focussed on the result. I was quite particular about ensuring that my concepts were as clear as possible – to me that matters the most. Academics were very important and I ensured that I was always well-prepared before the exams. But beyond that, I was never one to reserve time every day for studying; I felt there were lots of other things that required my attention and time on a daily basis.

    In my opinion, the trick is in finding a balance, between academics and extra-curriculars, between dedication and efficiency. It is a very personal decision. For me, it was much more important to grow holistically and become a better-rounded person than focus solely on academics and I have never regretted that.

     

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    You were recognised by the Ministry of Human Resources Development, Government of India for Excellence in Academics. Please tell us about this felicitation.

    I received a letter from the Government of India informing me that I had been selected for the recognition and that I was invited to attend the Republic Day parade in New Delhi from the Prime Minister’s box as a guest of the Prime Minister. They had selected students from across the country. I understand this was based on my academic performance at school and during the first year of university. I was really grateful for the recognition.

     

    You were also a member of the Editorial Committee. How significant do you think that the experience was?

    I had been an editor of my school’s magazine and wanted to continue such involvement during university. I was a member of the Editorial Committee during the first year. The experience was quite enriching for various reasons, not least of which was the opportunity to learn how to work with different people. First year is a time when everyone is still in the process of discovering themselves, their interests, their ambitions and what activities they would like to pursue in the future. I eventually realized that I was more passionate about and could make a greater difference as a member of the Academic Support and Literary Committee, which I was involved with for the four years that followed.

     

    You’ve held multiple positions of responsibility throughout your college life. We would like to know your opinion on how significant they were. Please tell us about your experience and how you managed time effectively?

    For me, the significance of these responsibilities cannot be overstated. To a large extent, my extra-curricular pursuits defined my university experience. I genuinely enjoyed getting involved with as many things as possible. Leadership opportunities are an excellent way for one to not just improve the lives of others around them but also, more importantly, oneself as a community member.

    I had exposure to a variety of leadership roles, most notable ones being the Student Chief Counsel (President of the student body), Convenor of the Academic Support and Literary Committee and the Co-President of the University’s first literary-cultural festival. These experiences taught me invaluable lessons in handling various situations and people, something I would have never otherwise learnt to quite the same extent.

    Time management is always an issue but then again university life is all about time management. I believe if you are passionate about something, you make the time for it. It is important to be realistic though; you can only do so much. These activities taught me the skill of time management, something that (as we all know) comes in handy when one starts working.

     

    How important do you think extra-curricular activities are to a law student? Please tell us about the way you approached extra-curricular activities in college.

    It is very important for one to pursue his/her interests throughout university life and, as much as possible, afterwards. It is our extra-curricular endeavours which add personality to our mundane profiles. Even on a practical level, who would you rather work with – Candidate A, who has a GPA of 9.5/10, has written several papers on constitutional law and did an internship with the largest firm in India; or Candidate B, who has a GPA of 8.5/10 but was a member of the environmental club, played the guitar, participated in moot courts and represented his university at a theatre festival? I appreciate that there may be people who pick Candidate A, but I personally would rather work with Candidate B.

    I always advise against the exercise of ‘CV Building’ and advocate ‘Personality Building’. It is much more important to do what you want than what you think others would like to see in your CV. Don’t aim to be the person whom all seniors at big law firms would want to hire, be the person with whom all juniors at a firm (big or small) would want to work.

    I did what interested me but never for my CV. Not focussing on the things that were not right for me gave me the time to focus on the right ones. There were times when balancing was tough but because I was truly passionate about what I was doing, it was easy to pull through.

     

    How relevant do you think internships are for law students? Did you have any such experience during your internships which inspired you to pursue a career in corporate law?

    Internships are quite important to get a sense of what work is like and discover one’s interests. Internships also serve the function of putting you on the firm’s radar. Sensibly planned internships can no doubt help in recruitment. I would, however, advise against relying solely or too much on an internship to determine a firm’s environment or the kind of work you would be doing.

    I started interning with law firms mostly after I had decided to pursue Business Law as my Honours. I wanted to see the kind of work and options available. My internship experiences validated my choice (of Business Law) to some extent and gave me an opportunity to understand what I was getting myself into.

    There is an increasing practice nowadays of doing premature internships or too many internships. I can’t say whether it is right or wrong, but I feel that students need to take a step back and evaluate what they want. Interning with a corporate law firm in your first or second year may not be as beneficial as you want it to be and you lose out on an opportunity to explore different career options.

     

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    You’ve interned in quite a few top-tier law firms. How did you plan your internships?

    My intention was to experience as many different setups as possible to help me decide what I ultimately wanted to do. I adopted a tiered approach. I started with firms where the teams were smaller and the work was more generic. With time, I started applying for the larger firms where I was exposed to niche areas and ‘top-tier’ work environments. This gradual increase in the scale of firms helped me get a clearer picture across the spectrum by the time I graduated.

     

    We would love to hear about your work profile. Please tell us about the responsibilities you are entrusted with. What made you choose this particular avenue?

    During my Training Contract with Allen & Overy, I did six-month seats in international capital markets, banking and finance, and corporate. I found corporate work to be the most interesting and diverse and decided to qualify (a term used in UK firms for when you join a department permanently after your TC) to the corporate team in Dubai.

    I specialise in Mergers and Acquisitions. I do a lot of private M&A, some public M&A (equity capital markets), venture capital and private equity work; these are all related. The good thing about corporate is that no two deals are identical and the work can be quite varied, that keeps the monotony at bay! On a typical deal, I find myself negotiating and drafting transaction documents (like share purchase agreements and shareholders’ agreements) and handling transaction logistics. A not-so-fun task, though a very important one, for a junior is conducting (the much dreaded) due diligence.

     

    How did you develop your interest and knowledge base in corporate law?

    I have answered about my interest above. As for knowledge, even though India and UK have largely similar legal systems, there were a few English-law specific points of corporate law that I picked-up as I went along. For any transactional lawyer, the main learning starts only once you start working. It is not possible for anyone to read through and retain the entire Companies Law. But it’s surprising how much you pick-up in small batches by working on deals and transaction documents.

     

    What is an average working day like for you? Please tell us about the same.

    As everyone knows, in a law firm, the actual working hours are quite different from the official hours. What I do depends on the deal flow at the time. I wouldn’t want to bore people with details of corporate work but in short, there are good days and not so good days (let’s avoid the negativity of ‘bad’). I would say a good day is when you do more drafting and less administrative tasks (and no DD!). An OK day is a mixture of drafting and administrative tasks like managing signing or completion processes. A not so good day is when you are ploughing through reams of DD documents or are being pulled in several directions at the same time. The last set is not a daily affair but one needs to be prepared for it.

     

    What were the biggest hurdles and challenges in the early days of your career? How did you deal with them?

    The biggest hurdle I faced was the sudden realisation that working in a law firm required me to know and do things which a law degree may not have necessarily prepared me for. The academic study of law can be quite far removed from its practice, especially if you are working as a transactional lawyer. Your job requires you to have as much commercial aptitude, if not more, as legal knowledge. It took me a while to become reasonably confident about my work and grasp how a deal runs; it is a constant learning process.

    On a less obvious note, I started my career in London so another hurdle was minor cultural practices which percolate into our professional mannerisms. In my experience, we tend to swing in extremes; we are either quite formal (and deferential) or can come across as being slightly overconfident. I noticed I used to err on the side of the former. Finding the right balance is important.

     

    Tell us a little about your experience as a Vacation Placement Student at Allen & Overy and Herbert Smith Freehills. How did you secure this opportunity?

    International firms have very formal and transparent application procedures. You do not need to grapple around for internship opportunities. I applied to both HSF and A&O through their online annual vacation scheme applications and was fortunate enough to make it. There was an initial screening followed by interviews and case studies for both these firms. For people interested in foreign firms, I would strongly recommend keeping a timetable of when the applications are due – ideally in your third year so that you can apply in your fourth.

    Both the experiences were fantastic. I was instantly sold on the work environment and culture at both the firms. The experiences were similar in many ways but different in others. The similarity was evident in terms of warm personalities, professional environments and a clear respect for work-life balance. The differences were more subtle due to the difference in the scale of the two firms (magic-circle versus silver-circle). I was also quite impressed to see the emphasis placed on soft skills and giving the right training. I decided that I wanted such training for the formative stages of my career.

     

    While working as Legal Advisor at Allen & Overy, you underwent a six month secondment to Dubai. A lot of our readers would like to know how the process of secondment works. Please share a few words about your experience.

    A ‘secondment’ is like a temporary six-month stint you do in another office or with a client. It is common practice at UK firms to apply for a secondment in your last seat. I was extremely keen to try out Dubai as a market.

    The experience was wonderful (as you can probably deduce from the fact that I am still here). The office is much smaller so everyone knew everyone, the corporate team was much more closely-knit, there was more scope for direct responsibility at a junior level and, above all, it was not raining/freezing/gloomy 365 days a year. What also helped was the fact that A&O has one of the best M&A practices in the region so the work was diverse and (more often than not) interesting.

     

    What do you think are the essential soft skills that a law student aspiring to make a career in corporate law should possess?

    Corporate law or otherwise, what comes in handy the most is a confident demeanour. How you present yourself has a significant impact on how people perceive you and your work. This extends to the way you talk (presenting your thoughts in an articulate and coherent manner), the way you deal with people and the way you handle stressful situations. In my experience, people would rather give work to someone who, even if not outstanding, is confident and can stay calm when faced with the unforeseen than someone who is brilliant but may drop the ball or lose his/her composure. If I may add, people often mistake confidence for the ability to convince everyone even when you are unsure of yourself. That’s great but it will only take you so far. What is more important is having the confidence to own up to your limitations; this inspires others’ trust in you and ensures success in the longer run.

    In terms of career-specific soft skills, transactional lawyers should always strive to develop matter-management skills. Deals can get stressful and at such times, people who manage to stay organised do better. So if anyone makes fun of you for being too organised (like colour-coding your notes, etc.), don’t worry, you will do well in corporate law!

     

    What does the process of recruitment and interviewing include? Does it differ, depending on the position that the candidate has applied for, or the country which the office is situated in?

    I was selected through the vacation placement route. After an initial screening of applicants, they called a few of us for interview. The interview (in my time) was split into two components, an HR interview and a case study. During the vacation scheme, I went through a similar process in London where I was assessed on my time there and was also asked to undertake a case study/research task and had a final partner interview.

    While I am not in a position to comment on the official policy, I think the process may differ slightly depending on which office you are applying to and the position applied for. The above definitely won’t apply for lateral hires. While all offices have a fairly formal process, the head office (London) has a slightly different format because of the requirement of a Training Contract in the UK.

     

    Once hired, is there an induction or training period for the associates? If yes, what does it consist of?

    If hired in London after graduation, you have to complete a Training Contract for two years. The two year tenure is divided into four six-month seats wherein you get a chance to experience different departments and decide where you want to ‘qualify’. Towards the end of the Training Contract, depending on your interest area and that department’s inclination, you may be offered a position as an associate. Once you become an associate, there is no training or induction involved.

    Overseas qualified lawyers (such as from India) have to clear an exam called the Qualified Lawyers Transfer Scheme in order to be registered as a Solicitor in England and Wales.

     

    What does an average day in the life of an Associate at Allen & Overy look like? What does the work consist of? Does the firm encourage lawyers to maintain a work-life balance?

    I have already described a typical day for a corporate associate above. In terms of work-life balance, that is a tough question. Being very honest, you will find mixed opinions on this topic. In my experience, the firm is definitely quite open to and encourages employees to maintain a work-life balance, but it also depends on your team and department. There are of course busy times when everyone has to put in the hours (especially in a magic-circle firm). I will, however, say that most departments don’t have the culture of face time.

     

    As a concluding message, what would be your suggestions to law students?

    Make the most of university days; that is a precious period you will not get back. At the cost of repeating myself, I would advise against doing anything for the sake of building your CV. If you truly want to differentiate yourself from others, do what inspires and interests you, be it writing papers or dancing. Try to become a better version of yourself, and in the process I am sure you will end up becoming a better lawyer. It is easy to let your vision get jaded while at university; in the long run, things that you thought really matter actually may not.

    Lastly, don’t shy away from letting your hair down. You have a lifetime of hard work ahead of you anyway. And “always remember where you come from and where you want to go”..

  • Shabnam Khan, Head – Trademark, Lall Lahiri and Salhotra, on a career in Intellectual Property Rights

    Shabnam Khan, Head – Trademark, Lall Lahiri and Salhotra, on a career in Intellectual Property Rights

    Shabnam Khan graduated in English Hons. before deciding to pursue law at Delhi University. She graduated in law from Delhi University in 2003. Her journey as an IPR professional started when she joined Evalueserve.com Pvt. Ltd. as an Associate. Thereafter, she joined Lall Lahiri and Salhotra as a Senior Associate in 2007. She was subsequently promoted to Head – Trademark Applications in 2013. In this interview she talks about:

    • Specializing in IPR Laws
    • Working at one of the foremost IPR Firms
    • Being Head – Trademark Applications at Lall Lahiri and Salhotra

     

    What brought you into studying law? Was it planned?

    I had always been captivated by the legal fraternity and the zeal with which they pursue the path of providing justice for their clients. Honestly, the biggest push came after I saw few movies such as “A Few Good Men”, “The Accused” and “A Civil Action” which brought me to realize that this profession had the power to change people’s lives. With that thought during my last year of English Hons. I decided that if there was a career which I wanted to pursue it had to be in the legal domain and thereafter once I started with my course work there was no looking back. The entire subject was and is still captivating.

     

    Please tell us a little about your law school days at the Delhi University? How were you at academics?

    The entire course was so gripping that it was difficult to miss a single day at college. The biggest positive of the Delhi Law University is the excellent professors and their teaching methodology. The sessions were interactive, lively and always buzzing with arguments and counter arguments on various topics. I was also elected as the student counsellor during my time at the college. I would rate myself as a hard working student who participated in various college activities while securing very good grades in a few semesters.

     


    You have specialized in IP law. What made you interested in the same? How do you say one can gain expertise in IP Law? What does it take to be a good IP lawyer?

    The journey to being a IP professional started when I joined Evalueserve.com Pvt. Ltd. where I was required to work with legal attorneys who handled various activities related to IP matters. I received tremendous guidance from attorneys from across the globe, especially those who were involved with USPTO (US Trademark and Patents Office). I was thereafter trained in patent writing and filing matters. This is when I developed an irrevocable interest in the subject. The expertise in the subject comes with the right guidance, practise and continuous dealing with matters related to the subject. To be a good IP lawyer requires one to have broad understanding of various industries, business nuances so that you can suggest creative and out of the box solutions to the clients for their legal matters.

     

    You started your career at Evalueserve.com Pvt. Ltd. as an Associate. How did you secure your appointment? How would you describe your experience working there? What kind of challenges did you face during this job?

    I started as an Associate handling the legal part of the patent filings for the IP department of Evalueserve. That was my first step in the world of IP. I got a lot of guidance from my seniors, went through patent drafting training and learnt quite a lot about what patents are all about and how any invention is required to be protected and secured in the best possible manner. Challenges were numerous, IP was new, and the domain was technical which required me to have conversations in different time zones with IP Attorneys in the US and across the globe. The job entailed that I was always abreast with the latest happenings and was always a step ahead of the deadlines as there was no room for errors. I developed various skills to manage things and made sure nothing falls through the cracks.

     


    Thereafter, you joined Lall Lahiri and Salhotra as a Senior Associate in 2007 and became Head – Trademark Applications in 2013. For a law student it’s very difficult to think about becoming a Head in just six years of joining work. What would you say helped you succeed?

    Joining Lall Lahiri and Salhotra came after a stint of over three years of dealing with Patents. Since I did not have a technical background, I found myself being limited to looking at the legal part of Patents which at that point in time did not have considerable opportunities. As I was interested in Intellectual Property, I wanted to look into other aspects of IP as well. The trademarks division of LLS gave me the much needed exposure and opportunities to grow. The seniors and partners were very educative and supportive towards me since trademarks was an uncharted territory. I learnt, made a few mistakes, but always pushed constantly by learning and guidance provided by my seniors. The process of learning and growing never ceases at LLS, therefore it was after years of working there that I was bestowed upon with the responsibility of heading the department. The openness to accept challenges, hard work and eagerness to learn helped me join the ranks of being the Head of the department.

     

    What kind of effort should a young associate put in to work to be appreciated? What distinguishes an associate from a partner when it comes to work?

    A young associate should be all about learning and gaining knowledge of their domains. Reading and keeping yourself abreast of any developments happening in the field are a must. Hence, it is a must for the associate to focus on his professional path of enrichment as these initial years will differentiate him from others in the future. An associate, in the initial years of their induction should always have an attitude of being a go-getter, ready to accept challenges and should be able to think out of the box. Every matter will enrich the associate with greater depth of knowledge and equip him in handling various matters in the future.

     

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    What does a Head at a Law Firm like Lall Lahiri and Salhotra do? What falls within the scope of your responsibility? Tell us about a typical work day.

    The work of a Head of department entails a large number of activities and cannot be categorized into specific key responsibility areas. However, some of the key tasks include – speaking with clients on active and fresh mandates, understanding their legal problems and suggesting actionable solutions, managing deadlines, resource & project planning amongst various other tasks.

    A typical day starts with reading the emails received from the clients, prioritizing what needs to be done, what needs to go out to the clients on that day and what needs to be started to be able to meet the future deadlines. Advising clients, providing them with your opinions both from a legal and a commercial perspective, recommending the best ways forward and assisting them in achieving the same are the highlights of a typical day.

     

    How is the work culture at Lall Lahiri and Salhotra? If an associate commits a mistake or an error what course of action do you follow?

    Work culture at LLS is very cohesive. It has great learning environment for everyone, be it an associate or a senior person. There are no limits to work and you can grow as much as you want, of course with the right abilities and attitude. The firm promotes in people thinking out of the box, finding solutions and hence in the process, mistakes are expected from juniors. However, it is also expected that with the right guidance from the seniors he/she is able to amend and learn from the same.

     

    What are the other areas of study which you think that a law student wanting to excel as a professional in the field of IP should be proficient in?

    In case you want to excel in IP, certain other related fields of law also come into the picture. Associated areas of law include corporate law, criminal law and law related to other aspects of IP such as copyrights and Patents. An expertise is not desired, but working knowledge of these fields will assist and help you rise above the rest.

     

    What changes has being the Head – Trademark Applications brought into your life, do you ever feel that there is an excess of work load on you? How do you manage to strike a balance between your personal and professional life?

    Work never stops, the interesting bits of queries received from the clients keeps you going and exploring more. Work can and never should be treated as a burden but as a challenge, the more you have, greater the chances that you will become a better and refined professional. As no two assignments are the same, it helps a person in exploring uncharted territories and subject matters resulting in understanding the applicability of law in greater detail.

     

    The trend now is to gather various internship experiences at different places. Was the scenario the same while you were pursuing law? How are internships helpful for a law student?

    While I was pursuing law, the concept of gathering internships was in the nascent stage. At the most, students would get attached to someone they know or their family knew or start as assisting lawyers in various courts. While ensuring you intern with good and varied law firms is a necessity of the current time, however, an intern should be thoughtful of not overdoing the same. It is advisable to spend time in a few law firms than a large number of law firms as it would leave the intern confused and not being able to understand any subject in detail. The same is crucial in making future career decisions.

     

    What are the qualities which Lall Lahiri and Salhotra look for in one and his/her CV?

    The firm hires interns, however, the selection process is stringent and thus only a few make it through the selection process. It is important for the intern to exhibit qualities such as – knowledge of current happenings in the IP world, understanding on key/ famous IP litigations, attitude, openness to learn and the desire to go extra mile, proficiency in spoken and written English, etc.

     

    What do you feel makes an intern stand out and is very important for him to do to have a chance of getting a call back or even a PPO?

    As I said earlier, it is about your attitude and willingness to learn. A lot depends on how fast you pick up things, and deliver results in a limited time.

     

    What would be your message to our readers who are budding lawyers and law students?

    Have the right attitude and never think any work is small, give your 100% to whatever you do. This will take you high on the ladder where all you can see is success.

  • Sannoy Das, Advocate, Calcutta High Court, on LL.M from Harvard and career experience in independent litigation

    Sannoy Das, Advocate, Calcutta High Court, on LL.M from Harvard and career experience in independent litigation

    Sannoy Das graduated from NLU Jodhpur in 2011 with a B.Sc.LL.B (Hons.) in Business Laws. His achievements during law school include winning the North India Rounds of the Phillip C. Jessup Memorial International Moot Court Competition in 2010. He was also a student volunteer at IDIA. After graduation, he was placed at Majumdar & Co., Mumbai, where he worked for a short period before switching to practising as an Advocate at Calcutta High Court. After three years of practice, he successfully applied to Harvard Law School, where he is currently a student. In this interview he talks about:

    • Mooting experience at Jessup
    • Shifting from a law firm job to litigation
    • Law school experience at Harvard Law School

     

    Please introduce yourself to our readers. How did you decide to take up law?

    At different times, I’ve called Mysore and Kolkata home; for a tiny bit, even Delhi. I started going to school in Mysore, and finished most of it in Kolkata, at M.P. Birla. As for law, it might have been accidental, but it’s been a while ago, so I’m a little foggy. A good friend of mine was preparing to take the exams (many back then), and I went along with her. If I hadn’t studied law, I’d have probably taken up political science.

     

    You graduated from NLU Jodhpur in 2011 with a B.Sc.LL.B(Hons) in Business Laws. How was your law school experience?

    It’s impossible to have a coherent strain of thought running through five years of law school. I’m sure I did a lot of things wrong, but I’m sure I left more happy than sad. I wish I had digested a few more books at the library, but one is always wiser in hindsight. Of course, as far as lessons in life go, five years at a residential law school are about as good as you will get. I also met my wife at law school. And they gave me the VC’s gold medal to go with it! So pretty good overall!

     

    You had Honours in Business Laws. Tell us about the Honours program at NLU-J. What other co- curricular and extra-curricular activities were you involved in, in law school?

    I think the Honours programs at NLU are pretty well designed. I think the idea of concentrations in different areas of law is a good one, and to say the least, the courses at NLU-J are well conceived. I could crib that at times, the courses weren’t well facilitated, but that seems to be a common complaint across our law schools. I think it’s also somewhat unfortunate that the overwhelming majority chose the business law concentration. I’m certainly guilty of having followed a crowd in that. Again, hindsight! I think for the Honours programs to make a good impact on a student, foundational courses have to be well-taught, and well imbibed. I think there’s a chance that at times, we slip on that count.

    As for other activities, I think I spent much more time on those than I’d consider prudent. Moot courts took up a lot of time. Even now, I don’t think I have had enough of them. I spent a few years on the moot court committee, finally as its joint convenor. I also took to debating (the parliamentary style) in college. Also, I played some badminton.

     

    You and your team won the North India Rounds of the Philip C. Jessup Memorial International Moot Court Competition in 2010. What are the important skills and knowledge one must possess in order to be a good mooter?

    Winning the North Rounds felt like a big deal. It was. We had to get over a very formidable NUJS team which had my good friend Deepak on it. We lost at the octa-final stage at the world rounds to Columbia. Till date, I’m sore about it. I think the months that I indulged in Jessup were the best months I spent at the University and I cannot stop gushing about it. Only recently, my team mate Manu Sanan said that Jessup now is a warm fuzzy memory. It really is; replete with an insane number of terribly lousy internal jokes. I only have good things to say about that experience. The team became great friends and still are. Not to forget our amazing coaches Giriraj and Yakshay.

    In mooting, as in everything, I suppose practice makes (somewhat) perfect. I had to go at it round over round. Of course, the love for research is very important. It’s more than just skill. Everyone on our team had a zealous drive to read one more article, one more book and one more case. As for speaking, I imagined I wasn’t too bad it, but it took many rounds of grilling to deliver some decent performances at the competition. I quite enjoyed picking up the best speaker awards at the India rounds. Even the world rank wasn’t too bad!

    Jessup continued to be a love affair thereafter. I’ve coached a few teams with varying degrees of success (but mostly disappointment). In my fifth, I enlisted as advisor to the NUJS team that year. They did a fantastic job at the international rounds.

     

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    What internships did you do as a law student? What were your reasons for doing each of them and how was your experience?

    I was quite conservative about picking internships. I wouldn’t advise that any longer. I suppose an internship each at AMSS and AZB improved the chances of landing a job at a law firm, but I no longer find that an attractive idea. I have very little to talk about those internships, although I did decent work during most of them. I think I got lucky getting assigned to good partners each time. If I had to give a word of advice about picking internships, I’d strongly recommend getting a variety of experiences, at different courts and different sorts of firms.

     

    Upon graduating, you started working at Majmudar & Co., Mumbai as an Associate. How did you secure your appointment? Please describe the interview and induction procedure for a fresher?

    I was recruited to Majmudar on the first day of our recruitment process. Majmudar, back then, had the best recruitment procedure, which involved a three stage gruelling process – quite like big firms in other countries. The fact that their process was so thorough made me want to take the job. Also, the fact that it was a mid-sized firm meant that I was likely to shoulder more responsibility than a typical first year associate. That again, was an important factor in accepting their offer. I can’t say what it is to be inducted there now, it’s been a while since I left; but it’s certainly a good place to go if a fresher is willing to be at the business end of things in a short span of time. One tends to get baptized by fire there.

     

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    You worked at Majmudar & Co. for six months. What did your work and responsibilities consist of? What were your reasons for leaving within such a short span of time?

    I have no complaints about the work I got at Majmudar. I had plenty of it, and that kept me happy. And I had enough time to savour Mumbai; all the good food and drink (in generous measure). So, maintaining the balance certainly wasn’t my problem. I advised on some corporate issues but most of my work was concentrated around huge sets of cases that we were handling across courts in India, and at the Bombay High Court in particular. I really cherish the exposure I had to high end litigation work in the earliest days of my career.

    Why did I leave? I had some reasons to go back to Calcutta. Also, the litigation bug bit me pretty strong while at Majmudar. Being at the Bombay High Court gave me a push to the ‘other’ side. So I packed my bag and imagined making forceful arguments every day at the Calcutta High Court.

     

    After leaving, you started practicing in Calcutta as an Advocate. Did you work under a senior lawyer or start your own practice? What were your reasons for moving from a corporate setting to litigation?

    Calcutta maintains the traditional solicitor-barrister/counsel divide. I cast my lot on the side of counsels, joined the bar library club and attached myself to the chamber of Mr. Samit Talukdar, one of the most prominent senior advocates of the court. In about three months, I had a few briefs trickling in. Then I had quite a few. As I said, the sheer attraction of arguing from the bar had drawn me to litigation. I lived some bit of it in the three years at the High Court. I had moved from wearing a tie to wearing a gown, but I was essentially practising a lot of company and commercial law. Even so, the sort of research that goes into preparing to write a brief or argue a case was infinitely more challenging than anything I had done before. It was like doing Jessup every day, at high speed. It was thrilling to be in the midst of volumes of case reports, treatises and piles of petitions. Very soon, my room at home, which I doubled up as an office, looked like a godown. Doing good litigation delivers great satisfaction, but mostly it’s a humbling experience, as I realized every day how much more there was to learn. I worked on a few matters with the top counsels of the court (and indeed of the country), and the challenge of being a worthwhile junior on a matter was quite great. I think I didn’t do too badly. Every once in a while, I heard a word of appreciation that made me dizzy with delight.

     

    After three years of practice, you decided to study further. What were your reasons for doing so, especially when the general notion is that for a career in litigation one requires practical experience more than an LL.M?

    It’s a somewhat correct notion that an LL.M. isn’t the best idea right in the middle of growing practice. I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t advised against it, and that came from quarters whose wisdom I have no reason to doubt. My seniors at the bar quite correctly advised me to be circumspect about making the decision. And I was. I don’t think I really made up my mind till pretty late. If I am to be really pragmatic, I doubt this LL.M. can have anything to do with setting up a better practice; at least not in Calcutta. If anything, having lost a year at a time when my practice was picking up, means having lost momentum. Fortunately, I did not make the decision of doing this LL.M. pragmatically. I did it because I simply felt some sort of an intellectual thirst, if you will. Not to suggest that working on cases can’t quench it, but I was craving to be theoretical, and was interested in taking liberties that I couldn’t have done while remaining committed to a client!

     

    Please tell us about your decision to pursue an LL.M at Harvard Law School. Please share some advice on acing the application requirements and procedure for Harvard.

    I’ve always gushed at the name Harvard. I’ve been here a while, and I still do. Not because it’s a reasonable thing to do, but I don’t espouse being reasonable all the time. As I said, I hadn’t decided about actually taking the year off to study when I applied. But when the admission letter came along, I think it was quite hard to look away. It also coincided happily with my wife’s career plans, and she was quite sure about taking her place up at the Chicago Law School. I think I’ve made a few decisions that don’t sit well with rationality. I wouldn’t advise following suit, as a matter of reasonableness. But I would advise it as a matter of principle, because I think it’s quite silly for us to be tied to decisions that we make when we’re all quite young. Not marriage of course. That one is forever!

    Applying to an LL.M., whether at HLS or elsewhere, requires some amount of dedication in crafting the materials. The key is just to start early in the admission cycle – get the referees to send in their letters and the universities in India to send in the transcripts etc. After that, it’s about writing a solid essay. I think the essay requires some good imagination more than anything else. I wrote my application on issues of private international law, because at that time I was quite committed to thinking about rules that govern conflict between jurisdictions. I think the essay requires the demonstration of both a clear understanding of a particular legal issue and a reasonable framework for thinking about solutions.

     

    It’s a dream for many law students to get through to Harvard Law School. What would be one thing they should necessarily do as a law student?

    They should necessarily study hard. It’s sine qua non to be reasonably well grounded in the laws of the jurisdiction one hails from. I can’t imagine what the factors are, that determine the selection process; I’m just lucky to be here. But if I were to hazard a guess, I think the admissions people at the top law schools are able to discover if the candidate has some real intellectual thirst.

     

    What were the subjects you were specialising in at Harvard? How has your experience been? Did you indulge in extra-curricular and co-curricular activities there?

    I came in imagining that I’d study a set of subjects that are useful in cross-border litigation. Instead, I’ve spent the year studying international and comparative law, international trade and legal theory. The LL.M. dissertation is focussed on an issue in international trade law (which for selfish reasons, I shall keep to myself). For the most part, I’ve been excited taking classes at HLS. I think the distinguishing feature of the experience for me has been the compulsion that I have felt to think critically, not only about existing regulation, but also about the existing normative views.

    HLS is abuzz with opportunities outside the classroom framework, and I’ve delighted myself attending a host of talks, conferences and symposia. Unfortunately, an LL.M. lasts only a year, and one can’t have everything. I’d have liked to do a lot of things in this one year – be a research assistant, work at the library, join a journal. I’ve managed none of that. Except Jessup. I enlisted as a coach to the team from HLS. Unfortunately, we didn’t make it past the semi-finals at the Northeast Regionals. Till now, one of the highlights of the HLS year has been a fellowship with the Salzburg Cutler Program, which is an awesome conference on all things about international law. It was my first taste of what it is like to defend a paper at a really serious academic workshop.

     

    Tell us about the faculty and facilities at Harvard. Please share with us a memorable incident from Harvard.

    One can’t have enough of being in awe of the faculty at Harvard. Everyone I’ve encountered is brilliant. I have special regard for my supervisor, Professor Mark Wu. But generally, it’s an environment where the intellectual stimulation is beyond anything I’ve experienced before.

    Watching six feet of snow accumulate over a week is pretty memorable. Otherwise, having studied under (the quite legendary) Duncan Kennedy, now in his year before retirement, is something worth writing in a diary.

     

    Going forward, how do you see your LL.M qualification would add to your career? Do you think of working abroad ever? Will you return to litigation?

    This is a question I’m not fully equipped to answer. I can make absolutely no prediction of how my career will be affected by this LL.M. I’m certainly not looking to work in a law-firm here. I can’t say further about litigation because I’m yet to sit down and make some hard choices. I am hoping to do some international trade related work.

     

    Please share with us your experience in litigation. What is one thing that gives premier law school students an edge over others in litigation?

    I’ve already spoken as to what my experience was as a counsel at the High Court. I enjoyed the work that I did at the High Court, and the challenges that came with doing that work. I think the second bit of this question is ill-conceived. I eschew the premier law school tag, and I think it’s an undeserving badge. Many of my contemporaries at the Calcutta High Court didn’t attend these so called ‘premier’ institutions, but were more competent than I could pretend to be. I suppose rigorous academic training makes a difference, but that’s certainly more up to the student than the institution. If on a general review, we could say that some law schools train students better than some others, then there’d be some advantage starting off; but, it gets quickly eroded in practice. I don’t think law schools train students to be practitioners, and I don’t think it’s their job to so. I think the real advantage rests with those who can learn the law as it gets applied in courts, quickly, along with court-craft and litigation strategy.

     

    Does the Calcutta High Court environment get stressful? What would be your suggestion to a fresher who is graduating this year and would join Calcutta High Court?

    I don’t know of any workplace where the environment causes absolutely no stress. Sure, there’s a fight for space and recognition, but it isn’t a place that a reasonably robust individual cannot survive. I was certainly privileged in the sense that I got to join a really good chamber and my senior was invested in my career. Also, I had plenty of financial muscle from my family to hold me up. Therefore, I don’t think my experience can be representative of the struggle that some others might have to go through, and I don’t intend to paint a picture that is rosier than reality. Having offered that as a caveat, I do think that the High Court is a good place to start (and continue) a great career in litigation. Of course, the court isn’t as active in the commercial space as the courts in Delhi and Mumbai, but there’s still enough work to be done. I think it’s important to have spent some time at the court before making the decision, and a graduating student would at least need to know who the best (and the most indulgent) seniors are.

     

    How much politics would you say is involved on the Calcutta High Court premises? How do you say one can possibly keep oneself away from this?

    If you are talking about factions in the profession, then my answer would be – yes, there are some and people get invariably implicated. Also, depending on the affiliation that a lawyer has (bar association/bar library club/incorporated law society), a degree of factionalism is almost impossible to avoid. I suppose a generally conscientious person can manage the fine line between good association and vile politicking. Also, I think the affiliations make for good cricket tournaments and the like!

    If you are talking of a political atmosphere, then I think it’s only fair that legal professionals have political views and are engaged in lawyering to achieve political ends. I think lawyering is a way of expressing ourselves as political beings and I certainly wouldn’t be shy in doing that.

     

    Who are your mentors and/or guides you look forward to for advice?

    I feel quite blessed because of the number of people who have advised me well during various stages from law school to the profession. I often turn to Justice N.N. Mathur, our former Vice Chancellor whenever I need to talk about career ideas, as also some of the senior advocates I worked with – my chamber senior Mr. Talukdar, Mr. S.N. Mookerji and Mr. Jishnu Saha. And my professors here at HLS – particularly, Mark Wu. However, I think the list is much longer and I must repeat myself in saying that I am indebted to more than a few people for having been mentors and guides.

     

    Lastly, what advice would you like to give our readers?

    I’m not going to pretend to have seen enough to dole out any meaningful advice. But to law students, I’d stress on the importance of being grounded in studying law at law school, and then making career decisions after seeing a wide spectrum of possibilities. I think there is considerable pressure exerted in law school to pick certain career paths, and while those are often excellent choices, they don’t work out so well for everyone.

     

  • Gaurav Singhal, Director and Principal IPR Attorney, Patracode Services, on his journey from Engineering to Law and a career in IPR

    Gaurav Singhal, Director and Principal IPR Attorney, Patracode Services, on his journey from Engineering to Law and a career in IPR

    Gaurav Singhal graduated with B.Tech degree from UPTU in 2006. His interest in IPR law led him to join Rajiv Gandhi School of Intellectual Property Law (IIT, Kharagpur) and pursue an LL.B.

    While in college, he co-founded Siddhast Intellectual Property Services. After graduation, he was placed at Siemens Information Systems Ltd. as Strategic IPR Counsel.

    Gaurav Singhal is currently the Director and Principal IPR Attorney at Patracode Services Pvt. Ltd.

    In this interview he talks about:

    • Law school experience at Rajiv Gandhi School of Intellectual Property Law
    • Co-founding Siddhast Intellectual Property Services and entrepreneurship
    • Working at Siemens Information Systems Ltd.

     

    Given that most of our readers belong to the legal fraternity, how would you introduce yourself to them?

    I’m a techno-legal professional living his dream to be an entrepreneur. My practice largely runs around Intellectual Property Rights, more specifically towards Patents. My approach is always problem-solution. I identify my customer’s requirement first and then give my best to solve it through the tools of law and business consulting. If the client is bootstrapping, I provide him certain lean strategies to protect his business interest, in spite of going pro-bono. Business Rights are commercial in nature, and are quite different from general civil rights, hence I believe that the client should bear the protection cost, as he shall be reaping commercial benefits from it in due course.

     

    Having done B.Tech from Uttar Pradesh Technical University, what motivated you to choose law as a career at Rajiv Gandhi School of Intellectual Property Law?

    My entry to law was well-planned, however the motive to be in law, was never to practise the law. When I was doing my B. Tech, I was an aspiring entrepreneur and had been practising entrepreneurship at a very small level, while still being at my engineering college. A friend and I had tried multiple fields like other engineering students, they were in and around education programmes, technology project installation, website design handling, business consulting, etc. However, none appeared to be lucrative to us as a business. During the same time we were attending various Business Conferences, and a few of them were based on Intellectual Property Rights. We found Intellectual Property Rights quite fascinating and had decided to pursue as our entrepreneurial career. The decision was validated by doing some mock business development activities with real prospects, which were highly successful.

    However, at that time, we were not sure about how to get the required skills to be in the area of Intellectual Property Rights. We knew that many LPO’s and KPO’s, even law firms take engineers as associates to practise Patents. But, we were sure that for a broader perspective we must do law. At that same time during 2006, IIT Kharagpur started the law school for technical graduates and science post-graduates. I considered that this law school was the right avenue for me to change my career’s direction.

     

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    How did you get through to Rajiv Gandhi School of Intellectual Property Law?

    Getting through to IIT Kharagpur’s law school is another dramatic story. If certain  incidents had not occurred then, may be my career path would have been absolutely different.

    When I made the application for Law School, my final semester engineering exam schedule was not out yet. Had it been out, I would not had applied for Law School at all, as one of my final semester exams was in conflict with the Law School entrance exam dates. Once the schedule for final semester exam was out, I came to know about this conflict. I was almost hopeless at that time. However, suddenly some Public Sector Unit had announced their employment examination date, which was conflicting with my final semester exam date, which was conflicting with Law School entrance examination date.

    Hence, under pressure from lot of students, the UPTU had shifted the conflicting examination date to a later one. Now, the dates were not conflicting, however another problem was still there. The Law school entrance examination was being held at IIT Kharagpur, which was atleast 24 hours away from Ghaziabad, where my engineering institute was based. And between two final semester examinations, only 3 days were there, which means less than 72 hours. The law school entrance examination was placed exactly at one day’s gap from the end semester examination. So 48 hours of train journey, written examination, group discussion, personal interview of Law school entrance examination, and preparation for the end semester examination had to be done in less than 72 hours. A very tight situation was there. Even few hours of delay of anything may have jeopardized my future in some way or another. I had decided to take this risk and was eventually successful in both my end semester examination and as well securing a seat for me at Law school.

     

    What were your areas of interest during your graduation? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?

    During law graduation, my area of interest was purely mostly on Intellectual Property Laws with emphasis on Patents. Even the college was more focused on IP Laws and division of a number of permanent faculties towards other laws and IP Laws was also like giving a weightage to IP Laws. As IP laws, especially the case laws, are more matured in the US, our focus during studies was more towards studying US laws. Even for practical scenario understanding, we had a few visiting faculties coming from US too.

     

    As a law student which activities did you participate in?

    One of the prominent activities which I supported was a student group called Technology Transfer Group whose focus was enabling transfer of technologies developed by professors and researchers at IIT to the industry. One of the aspects of this group was that it supported increasing Patent filings from IIT Kharagpur, which dramatically increased during the year I was handling it. To practise IPR laws and especially patent laws, the guidance was very limited, as we had very limited exposure to practising IP Lawyers during graduation. Even my internships was planned by myself.

     

    What kind of internships did you do while you were a student? Tell us about your law school journey.

    I had been through a total of three internships. The first two were at a small IP services firm, Siddhast Intellectual Property Services, where I was a co-founder and had founded it during first year of Law School itself. After the first year, it was an obvious decision to do an internship in my own venture, because the business was not shaped up.

    I was still two years away from my Law school graduation, so it was obvious that we cannot start with legal services or legal support services. Hence, during those 2 months, my focus was to turn it into a technology transfer company.

    However, in the first 15-20 days itself we started getting the notion that India is still too immature for transfer of patents and technology. So, a steer of focus was required. We required choosing something, where legal services were not involved at all and even legal support should not be required, even it should be close to IP laws and allied area. At that time, we did a lot of market research of the Intellectual Property market and identified an area where legal support was not required, and it was Intellectual Property database, more specifically patents.

    At that time, there was not much competition for Patent database in Indian market and few players had not even entered the market. At that time, we carried out partnership development exercises with a few players and boiled down to Questel Orbit. I worked out my next internship too at Siddhast after 3rd semester’s end. By my second internship Siddhast was running as resellers to Questel’s database and starting getting recognition in National market too.

    However, for my summer internship after 4th semester, I decided to do it in legal services, as by that time I had received substantial exposure to IP Law. This internship I did at Marico’s legal department. When I entered as intern, the legal department was looking towards me more as an expert, as the in-house team was more focused to general commercial laws and very minutely to IP Laws. During these two months, I utilized all my knowledge gained at law school to structure their Trademark portfolio. However, for Patents, there was exposure, which was quite minute.

     

    Did you find that your law school education had prepared you sufficiently for the many tasks you were to required to execute during your internships and later at your job?

    My education at law school had surely prepared me for various activities at my internships and at my job. However, at my job with Siemens, I had to undergo a specialized traineeship to work as Patent drafter and prosecutor, which was my major responsibility. For advising on IP Laws and managing other IP portfolios, like Patents and Designs, my education at Law school had helped me a lot.

     

    How has your mooting experience been?

    Mooting I did majorly as part of college curriculum. However, mooting exposure had helped me to develop and present arguments, which as a practitioner I have to do in day-to-day business.

     

    You started your career at Siemens Information Systems Ltd. as Strategic IP Counsel. How did your appointment take place? Please share you experience with our readers.

    This phase was equally dramatic.  Siddhast, the company which I had co-founded was doing well, rather to say it’s turnover was around 50 Lakhs in 2008-09. I was in double-minds, whether to get an industrial exposure and then join Siddhast or shall I do it right away after school. I had not even applied for the campus placement program. During that time, I was just enjoying the placement process of my classmates.

    On 3rd or 4th day of the process, it was announced that one of my classmates and I were selected for the placement process of Siemens. I was quite amused about it. I was not expecting it, as I have not applied for the process at all. I had moved to my placement coordinator faculty regarding it, to which he mentioned that Siemens was looking for someone who has done graduation in Computer Science and there were only 2 profiles in school, including mine.

    As it was the first year for the college and it was about college’s reputation building, he wanted me to take part in the recruitment process of Siemens. He mentioned that after 6 months, if I do not like it, I may leave Siemens and join my own outfit. At that time, I thought if it is for my alma mater’s reputation, I will take part in the process and also perform. From Siemens, we were told that we shall be tested on Patent Claim drafting. We studied it academically; however the exposure was surely very limited to clear such test. To practise it, I had read through Landis on Patent Claim drafting thoroughly.

    On the test day, we were provided with a test based on European Patent Agent Qualifying examination. Surely, it would have been difficult to do it, if I hadn’t not read well. Almost after 15 days of writing the test, I received a surprise call from the Head of Intellectual Property Department, India of Siemens early at 7:30 am. It was a wakeup call which made my day. I was asked to visit Bangalore for final processing and it was a sponsored trip with flight tickets also sponsored. It was my first exposure to flights. Really, Siemens had given so much to me, at that time; it was not possible for me to say “No”. And, in this way my final induction into Siemens happened.

     

    Later, you switched to Patracode Services Pvt. Ltd. and currently work as Director and Principal IP Attorney. How did your appointment take place? How has your experience at Patracode been so far?

    I am entrepreneur at heart, and that is the reason a Corporate like Siemens was not able to hold me back for long. When I was on the verge of completing four years, I was sure that my further development shall be inhibited in a controlled structure of a Corporate and then I decided to leave. However, Patracode was started much earlier. After leaving Siddhast, I was in touch with our first employee at Siddhast, Kavita Poddar, who was also leaving Siddhast soon after her marriage. Kavita wanted to start an outfit and she was interested to partner with me for that. With Siemens Policies, I was not seeing a harm to start with her, I had nodded “Yes” to her with a condition that I shall be only able to invest, but may not be able to provide much input beyond Management inputs. So, in Patracode, for few years I was just an investor and later on I actively joined it as part of the Management and its Principal IP Attorney.

    In Patracode, I am a free bird and able to steer my ideas easily. Exposure to bootstrapping startups has also given another variation to my advice which are now more lean and yet unconventional. Even my learning path is quite stronger now. I am doing lot more new things every day.

     

    What kind of work and responsibilities does the Director and Principal IP Attorney of Patracode deal with?

    I would say that there isn’t a typical day, as we are very client specific. Someday, I shall  have a full day meeting with clients and attend conferences, some days I am with clients solving their problems, some days I shall be at office training my staff, or planning future strategies. The activities are too diverse and may even involve technical or business consultancies to the client.

     

    What type of cases do you deal with? What amount of legal work is there? How often is legal work outsourced and in what type of cases?

    The cases which we deal with are generally non-contentious and revolve around filing and prosecuting Patent, Trademark, Copyright and design applications. We do not outsource our work in general. However, where we provide legal support, we may outsource it, like in the case of legal and patent translations. We work almost as in-house IP Counsels to our clients.

     

    Does Patracode take interns? What is the process for same?

    Yes, we do take interns. The process is simple. A candidate should apply with his aspiration to achieve during the internship period. If we feel that we can do justice to his aspirations, we may accept him, based on space available with us.

     

    Many lawyers would say that the actual learning takes place in the years of practice. How far would you say it is true? What was the case in your situation?

    As they say, it is very correct that learning happens when you do it. However, grooming for receiving that learning happens at law school, where your gurus enable you with the tools to be a receptor of that learning.

     

    If you could list out 3 activities which on a scale of priority, should be at the top in any law student’s school-life what would those be?

    • Make your passion your career.
    • Be disciplined in following your passion.
    • Till the time you have tried very hard, don’t believe that you cannot achieve it.

     

    Lastly, what would be your parting message for our readers?

    Just don’t dream, live them. I am sure success lies in living your dreams. Also, don’t do anything which may look career promising, rather just make career in what you like to do. If you will live your passion, success shall follow.

  • Gargi Panwar, Associate at Rajani Singhania & Partners, on LL.M from Nottingham Univ for a career in corporate law

    Gargi Panwar, Associate at Rajani Singhania & Partners, on LL.M from Nottingham Univ for a career in corporate law

    Gargi Panwar graduated with a BLS.LL.B degree from Rizvi Law College, Mumbai in 2010.She started her legal career as a Junior Associate in the Chambers of Advocate Flanian G. D’souza. Thereafter she went on to pursue Masters from University of Nottingham in International Commercial Law. After coming back to India, she joined Precept Legal as an Associate. She also holds a Diploma in Corporate Law offered by Asian School of Cyber Laws. Currently, she works as an Associate at Rajani, Singhania & Partners.

    In this interview, she talks about:

    • Law school experience at Rizvi Law College, Mumbai
    • Choosing to pursue higher studies over job
    • LL.M experience at Nottingham
    • Work at Rajani, Singhania & Partners

     

    Given that most of our readers are law students and lawyers, how would you introduce yourself to them? What is it that motivated you to take up law as a career?

    I am Gargi Panwar, a lawyer specialising in Property Laws and Mergers & Acquisitions in Maharashtra. My work involves a lot of communication with the clients, negotiations and meetings. I call myself a part time litigator because I handle a lot of Schemes of Arrangements and Amalgamations, Schemes of Revivals and therefore I can be often seen running into Company court (sometimes if not always in the rush hour).

    It’s a little cliché but I wanted to be a lawyer since I was a 14. By the time I turned 18, I was ever determined to pursue law as a career. I am happy that I could do what I really wanted to in my career.

    Motivation is not something that comes out of always winning but sometimes the setbacks in your life motivate you to walk on the chosen path with more determination and zeal. Therefore, no matter what everyone says, always ask yourself this question “do I want to pursue it?” and if you do, then give your 100% in achieving it.

     

    What do you think is the kind of interest or aptitude one needs to pursue law?

    A person needs to love reading because our profession is such that we can never know everything. There is a constant change in relation to laws and regulations and therefore, in order to be up to date one needs to read. In corporate law, I feel a person needs a lot of patience and tolerance to be exercised when clients act difficult. Also, one needs the aptitude to see different outcomes of a problem and then find the most viable option at hand. This is very important in litigation as one needs to be able to identify the key issues and find most appropriate arguments for the same.

     

    What were your areas of interest during your graduation? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?

    I was always inclined towards corporate law. Not because I do not enjoy litigation, but because I love negotiations. I feel any problem can be solved if two parties sit across each other and talk. Therefore, Company Law and Alternate Dispute Resolution were my fields.

     

    After your graduation, you started working as a Junior Associate at the Chambers of Advocate Flanian G. D’Souza? What kind of challenges did you face during this job?

    By the end of fifth year, I realised that I need to work under an Advocate who can give me an overall experience in various streams of law. Flanian D’Souza and Jerome D’Souza are very well known lawyers in Bandra, Mumbai for Civil Law & Property Law. I approached them through a friend who was working with them. Flanian Sir instantly appreciated my confidence and my good credentials and I started working with him from the next day. I had to leave the job because I wanted to study further.

     

    Did you always have higher studies in your mind? If not, what motivated you to go in for the same?

    More than me, my parents were keen on sending me abroad for my LL.M. Also, I love studying. If I could, I would be a student forever.

     

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    Do you think it makes sense for students to go overseas to study law when they want to practise in India?

    It depends on what kind of practice you will have once you come back to India. If you are interested in Maritime Law, Human Rights, International Insolvency, Intellectual Property Law or like me if you want to be a specialist in Mergers &Acquisitions, then studying abroad should definitely be your choice.

    Apart from this, students may also opt to study abroad as the experience of the international standards of education, meeting people and interacting with people from all over the world, making lifelong connections with people from all over the world are few of the many advantages of studying abroad.

     

    After pursuing Masters, you joined Precept Legal as an Associate. What was the nature of your work there?

    I dealt with Intellectual Property Law, Property Law and Civil Law.

     

    Currently, you are working as an Associate at Rajani, Singhania & Partners (RSP). What prompted you to make this choice and what made this shift possible?

    After coming back from studying for my LL.M, I was looking for a placement relating to Mergers and Acquisitions. I got that opportunity in RSP.

     

    What kind of work and responsibilities does an Associate at Rajani, Singhania & Partners deal with? What should a student do so that he gets placed in a prestigious firm like RSP?

    I am currently working in the M&A Team. I am currently working on matters involving corporate restructuring such as arrangements, amalgamations, mergers & demergers, revival scheme matters. It’s a round the clock job, exciting and exhilarating.

    Students should work towards doing internships with firms and know the work culture of the firm. The name of the firm is important but what is more important is what you want to pursue and how will you achieve success in what you want. Confidence is also a major factor in getting jobs in law firms. A well read person is always preferred.

     

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    Tell us about a case that you are particularly proud of. What steps do you take to prepare for a difficult case?

    I am currently working on a revival of a company after almost 75 years of its incorporation and about 50 years of the company being ordered to be wound up.

    One has to know the facts and read all the papers of their matters. Also, research on various aspects of the matter is also very important.

     

    What is the current scenario of studying corporate law as a career option in India?

    It’s a very positive and bright future for students who opt for corporate law. There is an unquenchable thirst to absorb good minds in every law firm.

     

    There is a school of thought that labels LL.M’s as being little more than an expensive holiday unless the individual concerned wishes to enter the world of academia/research? Now that you are working, do you feel the experience acquired during your LL.M is relevant to your professional life?

    Definitely, I am well versed with U.K. Law, U.S. Law and Indian Law because I got an international perspective while studying for my LL.M on various subjects including intellectual property, business law, banking and regulations, cross border mobility and insolvency.

    Also, I am much more confident and sure of myself than when I was before I went abroad for my LL.M.  My earning potential has also increased because of the  added qualifications.

     

    What do you cherish most about the experience you’ve had over the past two years?

    The fact that I have become a confident, smart and successful woman over the past two years, esp. for the LL.M which gave me the much required exposure. I would love to hold on to my LL.M experience.

     

    Last but not least, what’s next for you?

    Currently I have not thought about the future but I hope I have opportunities and matters to show my skill. Also I am planning to study further and maybe do my solicitors or an MBA. Well, time will tell.

  • Bharat Kumar, Senior Associate, Saikrishna & Associates, on work in litigation and pro bono commitments

    Bharat Kumar, Senior Associate, Saikrishna & Associates, on work in litigation and pro bono commitments

    Bharat Kumar graduated from Amity Law School, Delhi with a B.A.LL.B degree in 2009. He started working as an Associate in the litigation team of Saikrishna & Associates right after graduation and currently works as a Senior Associate there. He is also an empanelled counsel and counsellor for the Delhi State Legal Services Authority. In this interview he talks about:

    • Law school experience at Amity Law School, Delhi
    • Internship and recruitment at Saikrishna and Associates
    • The importance of pro bono work

     

    How would you introduce yourself? Could you please share a little bit of what motivated you to pursue law as a career?

    I was born and raised in Delhi and did my schooling from Ahlcon Public School. Essentially, I was a science student. Being from a typical ‘tam-bram’ family (and to be very honest with you!), I was rather fine-tuned since my childhood by my family members to someday become an engineer. Law, although, always fascinated me. I guess it was finally a couple of court excursions, which I did in the final days of my schooling that compelled me to pursue legal studies and become a (successful) advocate someday.

     

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    How would you describe your time at Amity Law School, Delhi? Did you take part in extracurricular activities? How important do you think that extra-curricular activities are to a law student?

    Time spend during college days was fun, yet informative. **Laughingly** Our college had a fairly strict attendance regime, which compelled us all to compulsorily amass knowledge! Internships were a regular during holidays. Guess that gave us all an insight into the area of law we desired to get into.

    Yes, I did take part in moot court competitions and played my hand at ‘Table-Tennis’, as a sport. Extra-curricular activities are quintessential to a law student as I believe they help not only in interpersonal skills, but also aid in nurturing the art of team management.

     

    A lot of law students promise to take up pro-bono work and do some socially relevant work. Have these ideas ever crossed your mind?

    Absolutely! Paying back to society should be if not our primary, but our next best ulterior motive. I did do an internship in the National Commission for Women (NCW) during my 3rd year in college, wherein I got an opportunity to be involved in a lot of cases concerning social issues. I am also currently an empanelled counsel and a counsellor for the Delhi State Legal Services Authority, whereby I help people belonging to the weaker sections of society by my legal services. My best advice to my younger brethren would be to help out as many needy people as possible, through your expertise or otherwise.

     

    How was your first year after graduation? What would you suggest a fresh law graduate should do to hold spirit and utilise the opportunities available?

    My first year was rather spent on learning (it continues to be so!). The emphasis was on a number of issues, more like, how to apply the law, be it procedural or substantive, onto a matter; how your senior argues a particular matter or even how interpersonal relations are to be developed in a workplace.

    Totally! I believe it takes a fair bit of time to settle in, in any workplace! I feel one should hold fort and not hold grudges against any fellow worker. Believe in your superior and he shall give you opportunities.

     

    Right after graduation, you started working in the litigation team of Saikrishna & Associates(S&A) as an Associate. How did your appointment take place? How would you describe your working experience there?

    During my final semester, I started applying in law firms. I was fairly sure that I wanted to pursue litigation only. I did receive interview calls from a few law firms, S&A being one of them. Fortunately for me and pursuant to a couple of interviews, I finally got a call to be a part of the firm.

    Working in S&A has been a delight! One is encouraged to handle matters on your own right from the start! Seniors are helpful with frequent discussions on legal issues. The emphasis is more on learning. I guess its fairly significant for any lawyer to have a good boss. I feel we have that in S&A.

     

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    How difficult were the first few months of Saikrishna & Associates(S&A) given that it focuses mainly on a specific field of law?

    Litigation offers one rather a protracted period of learning. Initial days in any organization can be challenging as practise may be reasonably different from what one has read. The first few months of my work was rather spent on learning drafting skills and getting deeper into the subject.

     

    What is the procedure to apply for an internship and recruitment at Saikrishna & Associates? If I say that I have never interned at Saikrishna & Associates, what should I do to apply for a job there?

    We have a fairly streamlined process of applying for an internship or for recruitment. Interns can mail their CV at interns@saikrishnaassociates.com. Pursuant to a screening of their credentials, they are allotted internships during various months of the year. A potential candidate seeking a place within the firm can apply on hr@saikrishnaassociates.com. This of course is subject to vacancies being present.

     

    What would you suggest to someone who is preparing to work with an IPR law firm? What are the basic subjects (IP and non-IP subjects) which one should read and have understanding of before sitting for an interview?

    It completely depends on whether one would want to get into prosecution or litigation or even work relating to policy. Considering the fact that one wants to get into litigation, one must have a reasonably good knowledge of the CPC. During college days, I presume we all tend to ignore the subject. Also, looking into the diversifications that have come forth in IP law, one has to be prepared even in the area of law he/she wishes to be in. Say for example, the requirements for a lawyer practicing copyright or trademark law is fairly different from a lawyer practicing patent law. The latter would surely require some expertise in science at a university level, in addition to legal studies. Nonetheless, the person going in for an interview should be updated with the latest developments in law. The recitation of a landmark case, together with your answer, during an interview would surely make an impact.

     

    Please give our readers a few tips in order to land a job in an IPR firm.

    One needs to make sure that their internship is promising and fulfilling. Working with outmost diligence and hard work will surely help in bagging one with a job.

     

    You have specialized in IPR. What made you interested in the same?

    IPR is an emerging field with a plethora of opportunities. Moreover, the same is also non-conventional, with an emphasis over the protection of rights concerning modern day issues. I believe IP issues, which I read rather habitually on a few popular blogs, elevated my interest levels and made me interested in the same.

     

    After four year of work as an Associate, you were promoted to Senior Associate. How did you go about achieving this?

    **Smilingly** Guess the question should rather be put to my supervisor(s)! I just did my bit. One needs to make sure that work’s done efficiently and well within the permitted period of time. Be thorough with your matter and with the subject. That’s what is required.

     

    Have you ever considered starting up on your own? Would you say the opportunity a firm provides for a young lawyer is worth the trade off in building a reputation?

    No. S&A provides us with the independence of arguing and handling matters all by ourselves. Our managing partner provides us with adequate liberty to handle and/or supervise even big ticket matters with minimal supervision.

    Absolutely yes! Firms currently provide a very good platform to help and make your mark. One gets adequate client interaction even during their initial days. It definitely helps in gaining a lot of exposure.

     

    What is a normal workday like at Saikrishna & Associates?

    A normal workday usually begins with matters in court. The same is followed by working on client issues together with preparation on matters coming up on subsequent day(s).

     

    What would be your parting message to our readers?

    College days are the best days of your life. Enjoy them to the hilt! Just make sure that you have above average credentials and good internship experiences. Once you’ve finalized where you would want to work, spend most of your time interning with that office. Give your best to it and believe me, your future’s secure!