Category: Associates, In-House Counsels and Advocates

Jeet Soni, Associate, Gnarus Partners, on being an Arbitrator for Willem C. Vis, and his internship experience
Jitendra (Jeet) Soni graduated from KIIT Law School in 2013. During this time he has interned with Dr. Tamara Relis, External Grant Researcher, The London School of Economics and Political Science, Dr. Rajeev Dhavan, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court of India, Hon’ble Dr. Justice Vineet Kothari, Judge, Rajasthan High Court, and with firms such as AMSS, Trilegal, Wadia Ghandy & Co., among others. He is currently Associate at Gnarus Partners.

In this interview we speak to him about:
- Experience as a participant and as an Arbitrator at the Willem C. Vis Moot
- Work experience at Gnarus Partners and being featured as a rainmaker in legal media
- His diverse internship experience
What motivated you to pursue law?

To be honest, I can’t remember an isolated incident or a point when I decided to study law. So far as I can remember, I always knew what I did not want to do (for instance, joining family business or engineering!) instead of knowing what actually I wanted to do. Going by your question, if there had to be a point, I think it must have been the day I joined coaching classes for law entrance exams. Because after that, I don’t remember even a single day when it dawned on me that ‘let’s try something else’.

I have had a brilliant journey back there during law school – both personally and professionally. My whole personality underwent a drastic change during my college life and I feel good about myself. Made a lot of friends, committed mistakes, learnt from them, failed a lot more than I succeeded and infact, I did every sort of thing that one can imagine about his/her college days.

What does it take to write a great moot memo?

(Jeet won the Best Memorial Award at Commonwealth International Law Moot Court Competition during his first year itself.)

Despite the fact that I achieved early success in moots and was tagged as the best researcher by my gregarious peers, I don’t consider myself as any authority. I’m a hard core believer of individuality and I believe every individual has something worth contributing and sharing. I consider this as a wonderful opportunity to share all little things that I have learnt by virtue of being on both sides of the bench in moot courts. To begin with, never consider any of your piece of writing (be it a memorial, an article or otherwise) as a mere collection of words and research on an A4 page of Microsoft Word. Rather, make an attempt to see it as a ‘living person’ which has to be meticulously brought into existence by using a perfect mix of ‘a well-structured skeleton’ and ‘comprehensive research based flesh and blood’. Not to mention, you should dress it well by using several in-build features of Microsoft Word. In the words of Harvey Spector (from Suits), “people respond to how one is dressed”, so like it or not, this is what you have to do.

I would club the required skills for writing a good memorial into three broad categories:
1. Reading and researching
2. Drafting
3. Formatting
The starting point of reading would be the moot problem. Not just once, but several times. Be as curious and inquisitive as you can about the existence of every word, full stop and comma used in the problem. Because there is and there has to be a reason behind it. On research part, always start with the basics and then move deeper into it. If you are reading a relevant case law, book or an article, don’t just jump through pages, instead swim through every word and sentence. Keep noting down the phrases and sentences which you subjectively consider as being useful at drafting stage. If you research online, don’t get impatient if Google doesn’t give you a relevant hit during initial searches. Be patient enough to reach till the last page of Google when it says ‘no more results’ (bad luck, if you have to go so far!). Use every damn keyword (by permutation and combination) that you can think of while using Manupatra, Westlaw or any other research databases. The idea is not to miss out on anything that is of even least relevance.

Once you are ready with your understanding of facts and research, prepare a skeleton of broad arguments (table of contents essentially). On one hand, it would define the broad contours in which your arguments will operate while on the other, it will give the reader an easy understanding of your thought-process behind the entire memorial. On drafting part, never forget to keep a systematic flow in each and every sentence and argument that you write. To put it simply, it should be one, two, three, so on and so forth, rather than one two, nine, four, and so on. Ideally, you may want to put one line each on the extant law, judicial interpretation followed by its precise application on the set of facts and logical conclusion.

Always draft your memorial in plain and simple English and be very selective in making a phrase or word ‘italics’ or ‘bold’ within a paragraph. Trust me, you don’t want to grab unnecessary attention of the reader or judge on an argument or phrase which doesn’t feature in your top-four arguments. Not to mention, know everything about a case law before you cite it or an author before you rely upon his commentary. Discuss and even argue passionately with your teammates on every little aspect of the memorial.

Just because you have found a relevant or a convincing argument in a book or an article, that doesn’t necessarily make the author reliable or authoritative. Conduct a background check, how far that author has been cited by the Courts, if not, read the preface of his book to understand why he should be relied upon. I remember having an in-depth heated debate with my partner-in-moot, Kanad on whether we should cite the article written by a particular author or not! This is what I am talking about.

Now that our living being is in existence, we should talk about dressing it up! Master the features of Microsoft Word. It is an assurance from a person who has himself learnt from the ‘Help’ option of Microsoft Word that once you have grasped these features, you will be able to format memorials (both sides), within 25-30 minutes at ease. The time you will save here, can be productively utilized for research and drafting.

I would suggest you to start learning from the basic shortcuts to intricate functions like in-built table of content, cross referencing, in-built table of authorities, styles, multilevel lists, controlling widow/orphan, etc. Once you are comfortable with these features, start using the ‘paragraph marks’ feature (appearing in paragraph on home tab with this sign – ¶) to be more vigilant about unintended formatting errors in the document.

How was the experience participating in Willem C. Vis International Commercial Moot Court Competition in Vienna as a participant in 2011 and as an arbitrator recently?

Vis has always been brilliant – back then and now as well. Vis Moot gives a wonderful opportunity to meet the other teams, coaches and arbitrators from across the jurisdictions with the best part being – you meet and greet all while enjoying a glass of fine Austrian wine and finger food. The most glamorous and enriching experience was to be accompanied by Prof. Martin Hunter during the oral rounds in Vienna, under whose overall guidance we had prepared for the Vis.

Indeed, it was a breath-taking experience to be on both sides of the bench. Being on the participant side – I certainly find myself lucky enough to be a part of a team whose chemistry and bonding was unparallel (and our ties continue to grow even when each one of us is in different jurisdictions). During the memorial drafting days, we used to engage quite more than often in ‘verbal riots’ on an argument of the moot (although as a rule, such altercations used to get settled with delivery of a Dairy Milk as a settlement!). While at the time of submission and sending the e-mail with memorial copies, we would keep our whiskey glasses ready for a night-long celebration. The kind of motivation and all ancillary support (including finances) that we received from college was overwhelming and to this very date, we remain grateful that they all believed in us! Specifically answering your question, Vis continues to be my finest exposure till date.

Being on the other side of the bench this year was altogether a (renewed experience). It was rather exciting to refrain from asking questions and conduct the proceedings at par with those of international commercial arbitration. This was indeed in sheer contrast with the Indian mooting scenario where (with all due respect and as far as I have observed and heard), judges ask questions with a sole purpose to test whether the students have understood the problem and the law or to make the oral arguments ‘interesting’ or to ‘showoff’ one’s knowledge.

My personal opinion is that such questions are not appropriate for moot courts that attempt to simulate a real-time dispute. Whatever limited understanding I have gathered about judging a moot is that as a judge, you should strongly refrain from questioning to the extent you refrain in a real time litigation/dispute resolution proceedings. That is the thin line of difference that I learnt as an arbitrator at Vis, which I believe gives maximum space of learning to people on both sides of the bench.

How helpful do you think is mooting for a law student?

I think this should not even be a question. To understand the real issue myself, I have not only read the opinion of past interviewees on this website but I have also interacted with my juniors and a few interns at our firm on the issue. From what I understand is that the scenario amongst the law students is characterized by rather a ‘polarized debate’ between the proponents and opponents of moot court competitions, with each positing themselves on opposing extremes of the spectrum on this point. That apart, I remain confident that mooting is much more than being a ‘list of extra-curricular activity’ on your CV.

I have been passionate about mooting and continue to be so till date! It is rather a deceiving thought that mooting belongs to those who intend to litigate. From my assessment and experience, a person who has workedon a moot with dedication and has derived the maximum learning out of it, can use such experience in any field s/he would take, whether litigation, corporate or otherwise. I mooted back then and today I am a transactional lawyer (often working on complex M&A deals involving a range of document drafting) and believe me or not, till date, I remain thankful to moots for giving me all these skills. You learn to be comprehensive in research.

You learn to put out your best research in precise words on a document. You learn to adhere to timelines. You learn to critically analyze whole range of issues left out by the statutes, courts and authors failing to clarify and/or thinking beyond the ‘conventional’ realms of thinking. You learn the sophisticated document management skills including drafting and formatting the document at professional level. Tell me, are these skills only relevant for a litigating lawyer? I am sure they aren’t and that’s why I think, there is a need to reclassify this debate itself. From the above points that I made, it is clear that mooting can give you much more than mere a CV-showcase, provided you have a direction in your efforts and approach.

You have won a Best Article Award and also have had a number of other great publications. How important is it to publish articles being in a law school?

Very, very important! Tell me, what is an article all about – is it only about words that we write? Or is it a collage of the time-consuming research that we did? Answer is a BIG NO. An article in simple terms is your way to contribute to the legal academia, using your own analytical thoughts based on the fallouts of the existing literature. Something more than what exists already on Google or any legal database. As a law student, when you write (even writing without the intent of publishing) or publish an article, you showcase that you are constantly engaging in brain activity and are inquisitive towards the unsolved issues and in the process, you also make a remarkable impact on your CV.

At the end of the day, it is a call which we have to make – whether we want to fiercely cite the opinion we took on a certain legal question or to quote, every time what has been quoted since centuries in all textbooks, case laws and by every Tom, Dick and Harry.

How should one get started about publication?

Fortunately, we are law students who are required to research and write papers as a part of our curriculum or during internships as a part of the work that we have been assigned. Start from that! Always remember to retain your research and notes on any hot-topic that you prepared during your assignments, moots or internships. Whenever you find time, start with that as the base and take that to its logical end. That’s the easiest way to pile up the publications!

It never took me more than a week since all the publications that I have, are solely based on the work that I did either as a part of my curriculum, moots or internships.

What procedure did you follow to apply to the law firms you worked with?

I have no qualms in admitting the unspoken rule of law firms in India (generally but not always!) that there is much emphasis on the tangible factors such as ‘institutional name’, ‘CGPA’, ‘uncles and contacts’, etc.. These factors sadly but inadvertently dominate the decision-making process for granting internships. Having said that, being a first generation law student from my family (with absolutely no nexus in the legal fraternity) and hailing from a young institution which was in the process of establishing itself in the market, it was very difficult for me to secure an internship. It was disheartening to see constant rejections at a stage when I desperately needed an exposure in my area of interest (corporate law).

My story of first law firm internship is rather a bit unconventional – it was through LinkedIn that I got in touch with Mr. Aditya Prakash Rao, the then Senior Associate at AMSS, under whom my friend, Kanadhad interned. Based upon his performance during that internship, Aditya was more than willing to put me in the process of internship and eventually, I secured my first law firm internship. At this stage, I suggest the readers to be active on LinkedIn and build as much of a professional network as they can. It can help you in securing guidance of the professionals and sometimes internships too. It worked for me and I am positive it might work for you as well!

Once I got the much needed opportunity, I made sure to make the most out of it. I was on my toes all throughout. Going forward, during every subsequent internship, I made it a point to set and break my own precedents of working standards. And rest is history now!

What does a normal workday at Gnarus Partners entail?

I can’t recollect a single instance during my tenure at Gnarus which can be remotely categorized as ‘normal’ or ‘routine exercise’. It would not be too abstract to say that my role in the firm has been much beyond the conventional contours of my appointment letter. When you decide to join an established institutional framework, you are aware well in advance about the responsibilities that you will undertake there. Everything is set, you just have to get in and make yourself comfortable there. But the challenges accumulate and the story gets interesting, when you decide to join an institution in the making.

Before I could even absorb my role and responsibility there, I was entrusted with a role which I could have never imagined. Within my first month, I got the opportunity to sit in the board room of one of the biggest media houses in the country, and conduct the ‘closing’ of an acquisition transaction. Well, if I think about that moment in retrospect, I feel embarrassed about knowing nothing at that point of time. What gives me a great deal of satisfaction today is the role that ‘moment’ played in shaping my mind and to know my place in the firm.

Slowly and steadily, I think I have come down to know my role in the firm very well and today I don’t consider this as an entity anywhere distinct of me. In my 1 year of experience with Gnarus, I am proud to admit that I have not lived the same day twice! (Oh, yes!). I have witnessed a variety of matters. Some of them were indeed quite related to my comfort zone and many others – I knew nothing and by the end of the day, I walked with a great deal of satisfaction of having learnt something. Apart from leading the firm upfront with Rishi in transactions, negotiations and other drafting work, I also had my own share of experiences of being an IT guy (fixing internet bugs in office), HR person (fixing up internships) and a few times in the capacity of a plumber and electrician too!

Ever since I joined Gnarus, my introspection has reflected in my growth both in terms of a learner as well as a thinker. However, whenever I think in retrospect today, it gives me immense satisfaction to see myself to have mirrored the evolution of the institution, having had the opportunity to contribute to it in my own modest way.

Before joining Gnarus, I had worked in the capacity of an Assistant Manager (Legal) at Kotak Mahindra Bank for roughly around 2 and half months. At Kotak, I essentially dealt with the cases in relation to SARFAESI Act and other related matters. I could never relate myself to the work which I was undertaking there and precisely that was the reason I decided to make an early move to do what I really wanted. That apart, till date I enjoy a very strong bond with my mentor at Kotak, Mr. Manish Kumar Gupta who heads the Delhi office.

What is your take on working at a smaller law firm in early years of career rather than working at a very big law firm?

To clear the shades of doubts, let us be clear on one thing – the size, name or repute of an organization are all irrelevant considerations in determining the kind of exposure you will get. In my personal opinion, at the cost of being a little cliché, it is the effort and willingness of your mentor with whom you work that matters the most. At the cutting edge of the profession where one is looking for opportunities and challenges, one should be at a place and with a person who will provide one with interesting and varied workload that will guide him to push boundaries and set new standards. That will surely involve a constant motivation on one hand and constructive criticism of your performance on the other by your mentor. The level of interaction with this type of mentor shall range from teaching you the very basics to pointing out mistakes from your work which you believes is your 100%. This mentor will always strive to guide your thought process and invoke your hidden analytical skills, rather than giving you external ‘directions’. Without any penumbra of doubts on your capabilities, he will make you work in your own sphere, reason with you, and not discard your suggestions unceremoniously. I am glad that I have found everything which I could have asked for in my mentor, Mr. Rishi Anand.

Needless to mention, I am not advocating for either sides, rather I am of firm opinion that opportunities lie across the spectrum (both in big law firms and the start-ups) and students need to think more broadly as to where do they actually belong. It might not be always necessary that after graduation, every student shall be well aware of his areas of interest. For them, it is far more important to engage in as many experiences and choices as they can which will help them immensely in exploring and locating their niche. But what is most important is the person with whom you shall be working!

Does the entire team go through brainstorming sessions for transactions and deals that the firm does or does your Partner finalize everything and tell you what you have to do?

Well, if I had to give it a ratio, I would say 99 percent of what goes into the transactions is his experience and knowledge, with the best part being our involvement at every stage of decision that he takes. The great thing about Rishi is that he knows that the associates (at early stage of their careers) are not as confident or convinced about their subject, as the Partner is. To fill up this gap, he makes a point to explain us the intricacy of each transaction and strategy to deal with it and at the same time, he keeps his own decision open for discussion. We work as a team and we argue, debate and discuss, but we never forget that we are working towards a common goal. Yes, I admit we have creative differences, but it’s not like ‘it’s my idea’ and ‘it’s his idea’ in our firm. The idea or the approach that works for the client is the best idea. So, either he convinces us or we convince him, but the communication line is open. We work freely with Rishi with no ego at play, neither a Partner’s nor a Senior’s. It’s only about work! In my limited years of experience I have never seen anyone so deeply involved with his team. He sees a part of him in us and try to build up us every single day. Any other Partner would just tell his associates, get this work done. But Rishi takes our views and it’s our excitement to take up that responsibility that drives him. He knows we can carry out any transactions, no matter how big or small it is, only if all of us are equally devoted. That’s what teamwork is all about and that’s how we have been working since Day 0 till now.

Do you accept interns at Gnarus Partners? How does one apply?

Yes, we do accept interns on rolling basis throughout the year. Our internship program has been designed consciously to reach out to the ‘bright and unexplored talent’ (as clichéd as it may sound) we all know but no one admits that within the internship process that exists and operates, there is an over-emphasis on tangible factors. The overall result of this ‘sad state of affairs’ is that, numerous brilliant legal minds out there who are not in favourable positions are excluded to even get a platform to perform.

It was our conscious decision to make our firm accessible to such talent and once they join, making the firm inclusive. For these reasons, we have fostered an inclusive work environment where interns are treated at par with Associates from the day they arrive, where they are encouraged to think critically and where their reasons are heard patiently. Acting against the Indian convention, we have developed an open door policy which ensures that interns are treated as an integral part of the firm. Be it a quick question on interpretation of law or drafting, or if they need any informal advice, at Gnarus, you will find the entire team more than willing to exchange their thoughts with you.

The process to apply for an internship at Gnarus is pretty simple – send your CV via e-mail with a cover letter to delhi@gnaruspartners.com and CC it to jitendra@gnaruspartners.com (which is me), at least three months prior to the period during which internship is being sought. Shortlisted candidates shall be invited to complete an ‘internship questionnaire’ followed by a quick response from our side. The factors that we consider while evaluating a person’s candidature do not start and end with his/her résumé and tangible academic results. Rather, we look for qualities which reflect beyond these. We believe that there exists certain parameters which cannot be objectively verified yet constitute an integral part of one’s intellect. With this background, we have specifically designed our internship and recruitment policy to enable us to learn more about the applicant as an individual.

We are an entrepreneurial firm that expects people joining us to be brimming with ideas, innovation and energy. In addition, we look out for people who have a wide range of experience and interests outside the legal arena as well. We require our prospective applicants to have highly effective communication skills to advise our clients on sophisticated legal and commercial issues in simple terms. Other core skills which we deem as fascinating and essential in our prospective applicants include, amongst others, a good sense of humour, commercial awareness and independent thinking.

We truly understand that applying for a job or internship at a law firm can be daunting and time-consuming. At Gnarus, we assure our participation at all levels to ensure smooth sailing of application. Once we receive applicants at Gnarus in accordance with the terms of our recruitment policy, we make it a point to read each and every application with utmost care and strive to communicate our decision at the earliest.

It is our understanding that the applicant will gain more out of the process if they have a clear cut understanding of the values of our firm and their future aspirations. Afterall, selection is a mutual process whereby they decide whether we are right for them and we reciprocate.

What would you consider as an exceptional internship performance?

Frankly, I do not know what exactly is exceptional, but I can surely share the ingredients which are likely to make one’s internship quite exceptional. Always be an ‘innocent learner’. As I have always conveyed to our interns, it is a good thing to know ‘nothing’. It is not a traumatic thought, rather it is a sign that you are open to learning. The day you make yourself believe that you know ‘everything’, you shut down your avenues of learning and growth. If you don’t know about a particular subject, admit it and try to read, discuss and know everything about it. Never try to proclaim that you know things, when you don’t. You can’t fool them forever; they are professionals who are much more experienced than you. Today or tomorrow, you’ll encounter the reality. In case of doubts, never be afraid to approach the supervisor and clear the same at its very inception rather than sitting and sleeping over them. Try to focus on doing your work in the most diligent manner and by putting your own original thoughts. Existing literature or resources are there to guide you and not for (Ctrl+C) (Ctrl+V) purposes. And lastly, your contact with your supervisors and colleagues should not be limited during the duration of your internship only. Rather, keep your supervisors in the loop. Trust me, you will need them – not as a ‘fancy contact’ in your smartphones but to guide you throughout your career.

You were featured in various top-notch deals that were published on popular legal portals such as Legally India, Bar & Bench, etc. How do you feel about it?

One of the most important things about this profession is that you are required to not only work hard round the clock, but also to remain constantly visible in the market. Your career graph won’t take a leap if you remain dormant in the market with least interaction with the people in the industry (physically or virtually). I am not suggesting that one should work solely for the purposes of getting featured on portals. In my opinion, publication merely symbolizes the amount of hard work and risks that one has undertaken in the background. However, the point that I want to highlight is that it is not something one should waste his time craving for.

Coming to your question, indeed, it is a great feeling to feature on these popular portals whose reader base is humongous within our legal fraternity. But I have never worked keeping this as an end. What fascinates me? It is the genuine feedback of clients that gives me more satisfaction than surfing the internet and viewing these news items. Again, I would not have featured outside the contours of ‘LinkedIn’ and ‘Facebook’ if I were not working with Rishi and at Gnarus. As I mentioned earlier, Rishi believes in sharing everything that our firm achieves with the entire team, therefore, when I saw my name out there along with his name, I was not at all surprised.

Lastly, what would be your advice to the law students interested in going into the corporate world?

It has been my constant endeavour throughout this interview to share my experiences with generous helpings of both bluntness and candor. I would advise all the readers out there to be original in their approach, not let their ‘raw talents’ be overshadowed by mindless status quo. Before approaching any assignment, put your thought in it and try to create something of immense value without prejudicing any part of your originality. Stick to it! Novel things are always appreciated. Set your previous work as a benchmark for yourself.

If you have not worked earlier on that assignment, then keep the best product available as your benchmark, and try to raise the level of the current work from your existing/previous work. Imbibe this habit so deep down inside you that your tolerance to mediocrity lowers to minimum. Keep your work and yourself open to criticism, never consider yourself as ‘born smart’. Patience and perseverance shall ultimately take you to the heights which you can never fathom.
June 17, 2014
Sourav Dan, Associate, AZB & Partners, on Intellectual Property Rights, and working for Govt. of Maharashtra
Sourav Dan is a graduate from KIIT Law School, batch of 2013. He has deep rooted interest in national and international Intellectual Property laws. He has worked in IP law for top notch law firms and in a very short period of time after graduation he has been appointed as a member of the Drafting Committee of Govt. of Maharashtra due to his expertise in the sector of IP laws. In this interview we asked him a few questions about:
- Enduring interest and research work in IP laws
- Work at Anand & Anand and in the IPR wing of AZB partners.
- Being selected as a Drafting Committee member of the Govt. of Maharashtra
Tell us about your life before college.

Being the only child of working parents, a major part of my childhood was spent in a crèche. I studied at the Assembly of God Church School in Calcutta and was an average student. With my inclination towards Biology, the obvious choice was Science in 10+2. Initially, I wanted to be a doctor and even cleared the entrance exams, but I also gave the law entrance exams just as a fail-safe. However, as the saying goes: “Man proposes and God disposes”, I ended up being a lawyer, just like my parents. My father was an IP Attorney and my mother even though a law graduate never practiced until she retired from banking services.

How does a B.Sc. LLB differ from a B.A. LLB?

My Father was an IP Attorney. When he learnt that I have been called for the counseling program at KIIT, he advised me to opt for the B.Sc. LL.B. program as it would help me to understand the scientific background present in patent related issues. Academically speaking, it did give me an edge in understanding the patent cases taught at law school in the IP curriculum. Further, it also helped me in my IP (Hons.) Specialization. Given the scientific background, I was able to grasp the chemical structure, mathematical formulas and biological nomenclature easily. I would advise law aspirants to choose a stream keeping in view their professional aspirations. Given, the fact that many law schools provide options in choosing the stream, a proper understanding and knowledge of the course structure, faculty, infrastructure coupled with industry requirements shall prove beneficial in choosing a particular stream like BSc. LL.B, B.A. LL.B. or B.B.A. LL.B.

What motivated you to start writing?

It all started when I came across an essay competition organized by GNLU while I was in the field of IPR. The essay competition caught my eye as even five years back; it was hard to find essay competition dedicated to IP. It was vacation time and I literally had to write the essay all without any guidance or review. All I had was couple of books borrowed from the Law School Library and handful of articles from Westlaw. The only help I got was from my jurisprudence teacher, Mr. Ahmad Ali Khan who made me sit down with him and taught me the art of applying footnotes according to the Blue Book Edition. Even today, I remember most of the rules of Bluebook style of formatting (laughs). Quite surprisingly, I was adjudged as second in the essay competition and was called upon to receive the prize in the first convocation of GNLU. I believe it was this win, which propelled me to pen down more articles. There was no looking back after that. The best advice to get started in writing articles is to read more articles particularly from the reputed journals. I won’t single out any specific ones because the journal might contain articles which might be so complicated, that a young law student might not read it till the end and leave halfway disinterested and disgruntled. The safest bet is to choose articles on topics which one likes, it can be on any subject and read them. As you would read more, one would come across the underlying issues and then research more to find a solution to the issue and pen down the thoughts.

How would you select a specific journal and approach them for publication?

The more you read articles on a specified area of law, the better you know which journals are held in high regard. Primarily, I have seen the reputation as well as the editorial board of journals before sending them for publication. Often there was call for papers and I had happily send them my write ups for publication. Sometimes it was selected, sometimes not. But I never stepped back from trying. I used to work on my project topics diligently and transform them into articles. Structure of any article remains the same as we are taught in schools, introduction, body and conclusion. The only thing, which changes is the number of paragraphs and the style of writing. It can be giving solutions to an already existing problem or highlighting the issues and then giving solutions or it can even be a comparative approach on the topic. It’s about your contribution to that area of law. As I said earlier, the more you read, the more you know and the more you know, the more you understand what the field lacks and hence your research is to be directed to that path. It can be your interpretation also on any particular issue. Any issue is just like a prism, there are various angles to see through it and analyze the same. Hence, the various solutions one can reach.

What got you interested in IP and internet law?

My father being an IP Attorney, discussed a lot about brands with me since my school days. I got bitten by the IP bug back then. Once in law school, I used to read mostly on IP developments around the world. I became so engrossed that I started subscribing to the any blogs I found on IP. I am still subscribed to them! My professor at law school, Dr. Tabrez Ahmed always encouraged me to read on the subject. Internet laws is a strange bed companion with IP, particularly with Trademarks and Copyright and hence my exposure to the same. My association with Mr. Rodney D. Ryder fuelled my interest on data privacy laws, encryption technologies and internet laws. I did learn a lot from him apart from law. He is a gem of a person and is friendly to the core. You can discuss with him anything starting from literature to law. I believe that after passing away of my father in 2011, Mr. Ryder and Dr. Ahmad mentored me a lot of credit goes to them for my interest in this field. I would also like to add the very nature of IP laws is very intriguing. This area of law is fluid, dynamic and dependant on lot of external factors like economics, development, policies, human rights and many others. It’s one law which can be so abstract and yet so determinate at the same time. The best part is you always have the best of reasons to take a side and pursue or argue. I think if one is interested in one particular area of law, he/she is bound to devote more time into it. I would not say it gives expertise, but definitely more knowledge for sure. I am not competent enough to say whether it is important or not but I can claim, it does help a lot in moulding one’s career and choices.

How well do you think your education at law school prepared you for real world practice?

According to me, it did prepare me well, if not fully. It provided an adequate foundation or one can say a platform and I think that is the purpose of education. Law is an applied science and can’t be learnt theoretically alone. The gap is the well known conundrum; law in theory – law in practice dichotomy. Internships provides the best and the unique opportunities to put the theories to test in a controlled environment. The best part of internships is you don’t set to lose anything (apart from making grave mistakes and listing yourself down) and you can gain immense exposure from the exercise. Internships are the best opportunities to apply the law school teaching into an arena. It provides the perfect platform to understand the dynamics of law.

Do you think being from a non-NLU law college impeded your career in any way?

Honestly speaking, I didn’t get replies from many law firms which may be due to my non-NLU tag. Personally, I don’t think so it impeded in any way. I joined the best IP law firm of the Country even before I passed out and currently I am working with one of the best law firms of India. However, I think that NLUs provide a better launch pads than non-NLUs and hence pushes one ahead in the race. From there it’s a solitary journey to long winding road and only the best reach the goal.

How important are grades if one takes a long term view of one’s career?

Almost all employers have a CGPA cut off for calling for interviews and hence the obsession for higher grades. Additionally, higher the CGPA, higher is your rank and as most employers interviews a number of candidates for a particular position, higher ranking do play a major role in selecting one. Further, an employer has limited time to interview each candidate to understand their potential and unless one is Sigmund Freud, high CGPA and ranking do provide an easy criteria for selection and is often the safest bet also. Just like a higher price tag on an item makes us believe the item as exquisite, better than others and exclusive, the quest for higher grade follows the same logic. Answering your second question, I would say it’s the rule of nature; survival of the fittest and hence the fittest shall survive and prosper the long, windy road of a legal professional. Hard work, Patience, determination and courage are the key words for a legal career; there is no overnight success. It comes slowly by practice, only the well-equipped ones survive, and hence one needs to have patience to learn, adapt and grow in this field. Don’t expect to become Harvey Spectre in your first year.

How do online courses help a student?

The online courses enhanced my knowledge and understanding of my area of law many folds. They supplement and complement the knowledge on any domain of law. In my case, the online courses from WIPO provided me a better understanding of IP laws in general. More so, the courses of WIPO are country-neutral and provide you with an international/global outlook of the IP laws including the treaties, which are often skipped in law school’s curriculum. It also provided me with an opportunity to interact with students from all over the world and I was quite surprised to find many working professional as students of these courses. The best part about these courses are you get to know as to how the world or your peers thinks about that thing which can be case, treaty or even a provision of law. I do believe that these courses help in the training of working professional. Now, even in India Continuing Legal Education (CLE) is being taken seriously and these online courses provides one of the best ways to keep yourself updated and to discuss freely with your peers from around the world. You not only get additional knowledge but you also get a comparative view on the topic. It’s priceless!

How did you secure your internships?

The mantra is to apply early aka first mover advantage as in summer and winter law firms are flocked by law students. Secondly, keep following up by email or by phone. I planned out my internship based on the complexity of the matters handled by the firm. For e.g. my first internship was in a full service law firm which handled a sizeable number of IP matters. I learnt the basics there, basic case laws on trademarks and slowly progressing to specialist law firms which handles the most complicated matters. As my interest focused on IP laws, it was easier for me to isolate boutique IP firms and apply during summer and winter slots. All my e-mails to the law firms was followed by follow up emails and phone calls just to make sure my name is on the loop. It worked often.

What kind of work did you typically find yourself doing as an intern?

I was fortunate enough to get research oriented work during all my internships. Generally research ranged from isolated topics to case law research for litigation. These helped me to learn the art of creating propositions in litigation and manipulate the same depending on the facts of the case. I wouldn’t say it varied significantly on the type of work but yes, it varied on the complexity of the matters in which I was able to assist the team. I distinctly remember my internship experience with K&S Partners, when one fine day a senior associate called me up to find a case on a principle of administrative law which he intend to rely on during an IPAB proceedings scheduled for hearing two hours hence. It feels great when someone entrusts you with a job just because of his/her faith on you. But personally my internship with Anand and Anand was my best internship so far. The sheer complexity of the matters, the research propositions which were nerve wracking and the litigation strategies that were circuitous enough to make you draw flow charts on your notebook to just understand the scenario better. It is at this place, I learnt that for every offence in your litigation strategy, you should have defence ready and you should be able to comprehend the counter attack way before you battle it out in Court. Inspired from Art of War, I believe.

Any tips for crafting the model CV and facing an interview?

First rule: do not make it more than two pages. Nobody reads entirely. Prioritise the biggest achievements as the reader might lose interest by the time he reaches the end of the page. Preparation for a interview takes time and is a process. And it is better not to be kept till the day. Barring the obvious tips, I would say read your CV thoroughly. You don’t want to be caught off guard while answering something which you have done in your second or third year. If your CV mentions lot of articles, make it a point to know at least the summary of the each article. The interviewer might be interested in knowing what you wrote on that article

What myths about the legal industry did your internships help dispel?

I always had the notion that a lawyer works alone in a matter. As soon as I started working I realized that it’s all about a team play. Each lawyer plays his/her part and a good team leader handpicks his team based on the requirements and expertise. The team works like a clock and a good team leader makes it comfortable for everyone to wrap up the work accurately and efficiently.

What is a regular work day as Associate at AZB & Partners like?

As I stay quite far from the office, I start my day with a long one-hour train journey in Mumbai’s iconic local trains (giggles), accessing e-mails or reading news. But mostly, I have spent it reading e-mails from the multitudes of IP Blogs I have subscribed for keeping myself updated about the recent developments happening in India and worldwide. I don’t want to be surprised by my client informing me about the recent inclusion of any trademark as a well-known trademark on the list. A normal workday entails replying to e-mails, clearing up the pending-work list and managing deadlines and if any urgent work comes in finishing it on a priority basis. As I am the junior most in the team, my work is often reviewed by at least two seniors before sending it off to the client.

What is the procedure for applying for an internship at AZB?

The procedure is simple and standardized. Apply via the standard ID mentioning the requisite details along with the time frame for internship.

How do you think interns can get noticed in a positive way in the limited time they have?

Imagine a place with more than a hundred lawyers and couple of interns, all eager to leave a mark but, more or less, all of them do the assigned work. So, the question is how one cuts above the rest given a limited time frame. I think here is where your interest, creativity, desire to learn and speed with accuracy comes into consideration. Show interest and your desire to learn as these are the indicators of your desire to grow as a lawyer. As law firms are always on a time crunch, timely delivery of good work is always praised and acknowledged. Add on some curiosity to learn and you score well in your limited time. Personally, I always believed that the phrase ‘Curiosity killed the cat’ is restricted to cats only (No offence intended).

What is work-life balance like?

At times I have left office at 4 AM. It does get taxing sometimes due to either complicated issues on which opinion is sought or a tight deadline. The work-life balance is often shaken but, I think it is not impossible to maintain. The initial days are the hardest as one does not only the work assigned but is also on a mission to create an impression on the management. In a corporate setting the illusory competition to leave an expression of a work horse drives most to unsettle the work-life balance. Additionally, in a huge organization, the working protocol which involves multiple layers of review often makes the entire process tedious and time consuming and hence, late hours.

What does your role as member of Drafting Committee of Govt. of Maharashtra entail?

At the outset, I would consider myself lucky to be appointed as a member of the Committee at this stage of my career. Primarily, it involves providing legal support to the committee in drafting the Maharashtra Clinical Establishments Bill. The responsibilities includes attending the drafting committee meetings, highlighting the inconsistencies with the Central Act, legal research on provisions of the Bill, thorough vetting of the provisions of the Bill for legal complications and also providing legal solutions to the multiple problems which often arises in inclusion or deletion of provisions of the Bill. Personally, I have gained an immense exposure to the dynamics involved in framing a legislation and got a live example of the oft-applied concept of ‘intention of the legislature’ thorough my association with the Committee.

Lastly, what would be your message to a law student aspiring to excel at work?

I will say that do not waste your five years of law school time thinking about where you would be after five years. Try not to miss the moments, which can give you the best days of your life time. Even bunking and lazing in your hostel room can be fun (done it umpteen times). Make friends, enjoy and keep in touch with them as these will be the very same people whom you can trust and rely. Just know no matter how much bland the law books are, Law is fun. Have fun with law. Probably no other subject allows you so much creativity and flexibility. Life has its own way of settling things down. In the end, believe in yourself and in your dreams.
June 16, 2014
Avani Bansal, Advocate, District Court, Harda, on studying at Oxford and Harvard, and litigation
Avani Bansal is a graduate from HNLU, Raipur, batch of 2011. Upon graduation she was awarded eight gold medals in different subjects. Thereafter she pursued the BCL programme at Oxford and later the M.Phil programme. She left a fully paid scholarship programme for her D.Phil from Oxford, to return to India, and started practising in her home town, Harda, Madhya Pradesh.

In this interview we speak to her about:
- Being an overachieving student
- Her experience as a judicial clerk under Justice Dalweer Bhandari and in International law
- Coming back to India to start litigation practice at District Court of Harda, MP
Tell us about your life before law school.

The story of my life: I was born and raised in a small district – Harda in Madhya Pradesh. I went to a boarding school, the Daly College, Indore for the final two years of schooling. Thereafter I decided to pursue law and topped the entrance of HNLU. After spending five great years at HNLU, both personally and professionally, I decided to try my luck at my dream law school. It worked and I was admitted to the BCL (LL.M) programme.

A year well spent, passed by quickly than I imagined and I decided to continue for another year at Oxford, this time pursuing M.Phil in International and Environmental Law, and thereby hoping to earn a specialisation, hone my research skills and add another unforgettable year to my life. It went as planned and then came the crucial moment when I found myself at crossroads. I was one step away from realising my childhood dream – to earn the highest degree in my chosen field (a D.Phil). Pursuing a D.Phil (Ph.D) without scholarship was not an option.

I tried as hard as I could and to my utter delight and surprise, I managed to get both an offer and more importantly a scholarship to cover for my D.Phil expense, even thought the latter came at the very last hour. I signed the offer for the D.Phil and then when the path seemed all clear, I paused to ask – if I really want a D.Phil which comes at the cost of the next three –four years.

If entering academia is not what I want, was the pursuit of a D.Phil, only to get the golden letters ‘Dr.’ added to my name? After some mindboggling conversations with friends, family and ‘myself’, the little voice inside spoke. I quit the D.Phil, with apologies to those who helped in making the offer a reality and decided to come back to India to pursue my dream. As I write, I am on my desk at Harda, practicing in the Harda Trial Court with eyes full of dreams and passion for building a career in legal practice in India.

How did you decide to study law?

I was always inspired by the idea of making a difference. Law appealed to me because it spoke directly to social issues. As a lawyer I needed to be aware and sensitive to the society – from the bigger picture to the life of the autowallah. So, I hoped to learn tremendously without any restrictions of a ‘specialised field’. With law I thought I could continue to be interested in everything and thereby make a profession of living intensely. Besides, my passion for speaking did go well with my image of a lawyer. Finally and perhaps most crucially the person who inspires me the most – my father did his law degree, though he never practiced for lack of an English education. He saw a dream and I was thrilled to learn that we share that dream. Hence, pursuing law looked like the destined path, looked at from all counts.

What was it like representing your school at the International Conference of Round Square?

It was the year 2005 and Daly College, Indore (my school) was chosen to represent itself at the International Conference of Round Square, which is an annual conglomeration of the best schools around the world. If our presentation was to be successful, we were promised a permanent international membership of the Round Square International. A team of three students including me along with our Principal Dr. Sumer Singh and our Round Square Director Madam Badwar went to Melbourne with our hopes high. It was my first international trip, and so I was doubly excited to venture in a new and unfamiliar world. Making a presentation in front of the heads of schools from around the world was a life-changing experience.

We won the international membership and friendship around the world. I remember going on a bike tour in Melbourne as part of the adventure day and bruised my knee as the bike tumbled a 360 degree. But I was still all smiles. Sometimes venturing into an unknown world makes us realize the existence of some deeper worlds inside and gives us a greater knowledge of ourselves. It was from Australia that I first saw both India and myself in a new light, challenging the usual way of life that I was accustomed to. The ring of ‘no worries’ in the market place touched me deeply as I was seeing a society which was very warm and hospitable. Melbourne left deep impressions on me, like all firsts do!

How did you strike a balance between academic and non academic pursuits?

I was always a person with varied interests and I was very clear as I stepped in law school, that my aim was to work towards a well-rounded personality. Therefore I tried my hand at all possible opportunities that HNLU presented me with, both academic and non-academic. The academic pursuits such as mooting, publications, internships, conferences etc. were a natural extension of my will to explore the different aspects of a law school. But taking the five years at law school as an opportunity to work on myself as a person, I continued to participate in the non-academic pursuits as well.

I was a dancer at school and so performed in different cultural functions at college. Debating, dramatics I could explore only in a limited way. The lack of sports infrastructure at HNLU during my days meant that physical fitness was a neglected area. However, after the first year, mooting really did take over all my other interests and I enjoyed every moot thoroughly as it left me much more confident of myself. My eight semester saw me handling three different moots, with two international moots. I remember a friend asking me if I wasn’t always into too many things at the same time but perhaps as I explained then, I was always a person who could manage better with more things on my plate. I love to fill my day with different and varied tasks and that alone makes me productive.

Tell us about your experience interning at the Ministry of External Affairs and ISIL.

My fascination with trying to understand the bigger picture drew me slowly towards developing an interest in public international law. Participating in Stetson, Henry Dunant and Williem C. Vis and Jessup only fuelled the fire. Interning with MEA was inspired by trying to take a closer look at the working of the Ministry. Though that didn’t happen but the internship was a useful one as it exposed me to a rich material on public international law and state diplomacy. The ISIL internship came with multiple advantages.

I could browse through several books and unheard journals on different subjects related to public international law and work on the upcoming moot simultaneously. Being at Bhagwan Das Road, next to the Indian Law Institute, with chai stall in the vicinity had it all for a perfect one month educational break. The application procedure for both these internships was standard. I wrote to the concerned person and got accepted. Though at ISIL, a reference through a teacher did expedite things.

What was your stint in judicial clerkship like?

(Avani has interned with the National Judicial Academy and Justice Dalweer Bhandari’s office.)

My internship decisions were based on a desire to experience the variety of roles that I could take up on graduating. So, I wanted to explore what the different worlds entailed – that of litigation, academia, judiciary, media house, corporate firm etc. National Judicial Academy is a great place and interning there did help me push my intellectual boundaries. Since the place had some of the best academics, learning from their feedback proved very useful in the longer run. Also to see how an organisation such as the NJA works gave me insights into the training of the judiciary and the need for it.

Its location and the beautiful premises were a very welcome change from the otherwise lack of attention on aesthetics at work-places. As for the judicial clerkship, I had applied through college and was allotted an internship with Justice Dalweer Bhandari amongst other judges on a purely random basis. But it proved to be a great stroke of luck as I learned tremendously at Justice Bhandari’s office. I had the opportunity to brief Justice Bhandari every day during my internship.

The experience of reading several files in a day and discussing them with a seating judge of the Supreme Court, taught me about a judge’s perspective and way of functioning. It also made me realise that a judge’s task of ‘finding the truth’ in the light of law is not an easy one and entails great responsibility on his/her part. Most importantly it helped me realise the importance of judiciary in the Indian legal system. His office was a very welcoming place to work and so it turned out to be a really good experience.

How did you apply for your internship under Mr. Fali S. Nariman?

I applied for an internship with Mr. Fali S. Nariman whilst at Oxford. He asked for a recommendation from the dean of the law faculty, Oxford, receiving which the internship was confirmed for my winter break. It took me a while to soak in the feeling that I was watching Fali from close quarters as I had been in awe of him from early days at law school. The work at his office was not very different from other litigation offices. I worked on the matters that I was given. Perhaps it was an internship that was crucial more from an experiential viewpoint than from a practical one.

What was your time interning at law firms like?

(Avani interned with Amarchand Mangaldas & AZB & Partners in her penultimate year of law school.)

My decision to pursue a variety of internships meant that I didn’t have the opportunity to intern at a mid-size firm. So, when I went to these big ones in my fourth year, I was all prepared to do every kind of work. But to my surprise, I got very intellectually stimulating work and didn’t have to complain about just lifting files or printing as some of my colleagues had complained while working at other law firms. I was working with the litigation team at Amarchand and got an opportunity to work on some remarkable matters whilst there. At AZB, I did a variety of work which made me feel very confident about the breadth of practice that I could be looking as future prospects.

Would you say your law school prepared you for the practical work which you had to do at your internship?

I am not sure any law school can prepare someone for the practical work during internships. But if one’s theoretical foundation is strong and one is adept in basic research skills, with the right set of attitude, it’s not difficult to make the most of one’s internship. Internships, I think are not just an opportunity to showcase your talent but also to develop it further. The traditional notion of pursuing a law firm internship only in the later years at law school is not necessarily correct.

As long as one is giving one’s best and is willing to learn, all internships can be fruitful.

The bottom line to remember is that “No one out there teaches you a thing! It is upto you to see what is it that you can learn.” Based on this, it is difficult for me to say that one internship was better than the other for they all helped me in different ways and sharpened different skills. But if I have to be honest, my first internship with RLEK – Rural Litigation Entitlement Kendra (NGO), Dehradun stood out for me. They took us to tour the villages in Uttarakhand and as a first year law student, observing the lives of people in mountainous villages struck more chords with my soul than an internship at any other place did.

The best experiences are those where we cannot point out what it was about them that made them special. But a group of law students, talking law to the people in villages in their language, understanding their perspectives on life, law and other things, and all this set in inexplicable natural beauty was an experience that I can never forget.

How was your experience representing the Indian delegation at the G-8/G-20 Youth Summit?

I represented the Indian delegation as the Environment Minister at the G-8/G-20 Youth Summit, Paris, France from 29th May-4th June 2011. There was a formal selection procedure for the G-8/G-20 Youth Summit which entailed filling an online form, shortlisting and final interview.

Each ministry had a different agenda. The Environment Ministry Agenda included ‘Governing and financing global environmental protection, integrating environmental issues in our global rules’ and ‘Adapting the use of resources with social and economic issues’ as broad themes. The conference was a simulation of the real G-8/G-20 Summit and to our delight the final communique which emerged was sent to the world leaders attending the G-8/G-20 Summit. The conference was a great insight into the working of international negotiations.

What was your motivation behind pursuing BCL?

I was quite keen from the very beginning of the law school that I would want to go for higher studies if given an opportunity. I had a mixed bag of reasons motivating me for the same. Before settling into practice, I did aspire to see one of the very best law schools around the world from close quarters. Such an opportunity, I thought and rightly so as confirmed later, has great experiential value. Learning the legal subjects from the world authorities on them and an opportunity to discuss the legal concepts with them pushes one’s intellectual boundaries. Besides, being part of a culturally diverse society, brings important lessons lasting a lifetime.

All these reasons culminated in my decision to pursue LL.M. I had applied only to five law colleges and got accepted through three of them. The offer from Oxford was the most attractive one on all counts. Besides it was a place where I felt I would fit it. So the choice was not difficult at all and I don’t regret it one bit looking back.

How did you choose Oxford over the others?

I think it is a personal decision based on several factors including the availability of the courses one intends to pursue, the list of professors that one hopes to interact with, the rank and prestige of the university, the place and the city that the university is in, career options etc. I wanted a quintessential ‘university’ experience. I didn’t have many people guiding me but from what I knew of Oxford, it seemed like a place away from the city buzz, a world in itself which could give me time for study and reflection in quietude.

Besides, Oxford is known for its focus on strengthening the theoretical base and on a ‘go-deep’ versus the ‘go-wide’ approach. So, even though I could read only four subjects as part of the BCL, they came with tremendous work load and I did feel the advantage of specialising in those subjects without narrowing down my options too much.

What are the scholarships Oxford provides for students from India?

There aren’t any specific scholarships at Oxford for law students from India except for the Mrs. Ambriti Salve Scholarship at Exeter College. The major scholarships to look out for are the Rhodes, the Commonwealth scholarship, Inlaks and Felix.

What were the objectives of different societies you worked with at Oxford?

To begin with the number of options one has as a student at Oxford to engage in student run societies is mindboggling. Oxford has a student run society for every activity under the sun including social service, adventure, sports, cultural, theatre – you name it. In the first week at Oxford itself, one can find all about them at the Student Fair and register for them. Even though they are student run, they are managed extremely professionally.

I participated in the student societies to engage with the issues they were working on and to develop an understanding of their approach. Oxford is very well connected to the leading people working in different segments and therefore had a huge advantage as working with these societies meant that one could meet and talk with people who were at the helm of affairs in the chosen field. The number of events of interest on any given day and the diversity is hard to match with any Indian institute.

What challenges did you face as editor of the Oxford University Commonwealth Law Journal?

Indian law schools do not pay any separate attention on developing editing skills unless one chooses to participate in the running of a magazine or a journal. So, I joined Oxford University Commonwealth Law Journal to hone my editing skills. It was great learning and the attention to the detail is a useful skill I picked up while at work.

Did you undergo a rigorous academic schedule?

The academic schedule was beyond comparison from the undergraduate years. Even though most subjects had only a two hour class in a week, there were week-long readings which one was expected to read before the class. One of my four subjects was Juriprudence and Political Theory which had three different seminars in a week and thereby almost thrice the workload in comparison to the other subjects.

The basic difference from the undergraduate classes was that the objective behind the classes was to clarify one’s doubts as regards the conceptual issues rather than seeing the classroom as a place to learn the basics. Therefore, every student was expected to have covered the basics through readings before attending the classes and participate in discussions.

What is the process of application for the Roy Goode Scholarship?

(Avani pursued an M.Phil in Law at University of Oxford as a Roy Goode Scholar.)

The application procedure for M.Phil was standard and required filling a form along with statement of purpose and references. BCL students had the option to submit previous references. The most crucial element of the M.Phil application procedure was the M.Phil proposal. It was on this that the application decision was primarily based. For the scholarship too, there was a standard procedure, the details of which are available on the Law Faculty of Oxford’s website. Along with the Roy Goode scholarship, I also received Graduate Assistance Fund Award. For more details visit law.ox.ac.uk.

What was your topic of research for M.Phil?

My topic of research for M.Phil was the need for a World Environment Organisation (WEO) and embedding the WEO debate in International Environmental Law. I am interested in the interface between International Governance and International Law and an institutional proposal such as the WEO works at this interface. Besides I was interested in a topic which has practical significance and the WEO along with other governance proposals are being actively considered by the international community to reform International Environmental Governance.

What was your experience assisting Professor Timothy Garton Ash?

(Avani assisted Prof. Ash, a world renowned academic, on the ‘Free Speech Project.’)

The Free Speech Debate Project intends to further the cause of freedom of speech and expression by bringing together issues of free speech around the world on one portal. The multi-linguality of the portal is a unique feature as it hopes to get information and opinions on free speech issues accessible to one and all. I was assisting in the capacity of a blogger and a translator.

What were the objectives of the society ‘Oxford Lawyers Without Borders’?

(Avani was President of the society as well.)

Oxford Lawyers Without Borders (OxLWOB) is a part of its parent organisation Lawyers Without Borders (LWOB) and works on promoting human rights issues across borders. When I first joined OxLWOB, as the panel leader of West Papua panel, we were focussing on building a legal case for the self-determination of West Papua and presented it before the Annual meeting of the Parliamentarians for West Papua.

In the second year, as the President my task was to co-ordinate the different panels of OxLWOB and work towards building the society as a platform for students at Oxford to contribute to social causes. It was primarily due to my work for OxLWOB that I was given an ‘Honourable mention’ as part of the Vice Chancellor’s Civic Award scheme, 2013 and was the first law student to be recognised so.

How was your experience as a foreign exchange student?

(Avani traveled to Germany as part of an academic exchange programme with Max Planck Institute.)

Max Planck Institute for Comparative and Private International Law, Hamburg has one of the finest collections on international law in general and private international law in particular. Also it hosts some of the finest academics working in this area. So the opportunity came with several perks including working on papers, meeting professors and was also my first trip to Germany, which I thoroughly liked.

How was your experience interning at UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.

Honestly everything about the internship with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) was different from the other internships I pursued. The quality of legal research that I was given, the international culture of the institute, the work atmosphere, the friendships I made, and above all my supervisor – Cecil Aptel, who was the senior legal officer at OHCHR, was the best boss that one could hope for. Most importantly, it was an internship where I could see my work having a lot of practical significance and being used directly for the human rights issues around the world.

Tell us about practising at District Court, Harda?

As I mentioned earlier, I quit taking the D.Phil offer because I heard the call of duty. I intend to start my own law firm with the aim that for every matter we do for profit, we will do another matter for non-profit. A lot of young people I know enter law school because they want to make a difference. But then when they are about to finish law school, they find themselves at cross-roads. If they are serious about contributing to the society, they have limited options of litigating which practically means no money at least for the initial few years, or joining a Human Rights organisation which implies one cannot practice as a lawyer any longer or joining an NGO, whereby one is branded an activist more than a lawyer. So, I ask – why can’t one do corporate law and still contribute to the pro-bono cases one intends to work on? Since greed has no limit and every extra penny in the law firm can be used to further the business prospects, there is indeed a need for a law firm/organisation which as a matter of principle contributes towards pro-bono and does not restrict its pro-bono activities to a few cases to pay lip service to it.

Furthermore, being interested in a variety of things such as policy making, litigating and activism, I couldn’t find a law firm/organisation that lets me explore all of these dimensions, so I have decided to create one. I don’t want to wait till I am 40 or 50 to start on my own. I want to commit my own mistakes and learn my own lessons and in the process call for individuals who share my feelings and intend to co-create such an organisation. I am calling for applications soon. The idea is to work out the team in Harda, MP, India (my hometown) for few months and start the first office in Jabalpur before the end of this year. Starting from Harda gives us an opportunity to start from the bottom. It’s an experiment but isn’t life itself one?

Lastly, what would be your parting message for our readers?

Whatever you do, be true to your own soul! The rest will follow. And remember as someone once said: “Whatever you think you can do or dream you can, begin it for boldness has genius, magic and power in it!” So more power to you, dear reader!
June 15, 2014
Diwakar Kishore, Advocate, Patna High Court, on his engagement with IDIA, litigation, and working at Luthra

Diwakar Kishore is a graduate from NLSIU, batch of 2012. After working at Luthra for about a year, he quit it to become an independent practitioner at the Patna High Court. Presently he practices litigation at Patna High Court and also takes out time as a director of IDIA.

In this interview we talk to him about:

Tell us a bit about life before college.

I finished my schooling in Patna, Nainital and Kota. I went to a boarding school at an early age and it helped me a lot as an individual and gave me many wonderful friends.

My father is a lawyer, and I grew up in a house full of AIR-SCC volumes. My sister also took up law after high school and had married a lawyer. So yes, law was a familiar field.

What motivated you to pursue law?

As I said, my father is a lawyer, so it was not a field that was unfamiliar to me. After spending a few months preparing for IIT and truly realizing how much I hated chemistry, I did a bit of soul searching and drifted towards law (not NLS). I was (just) fortunate to make it to NLS.

What do you have to say about mooting at law school and legal writing for journals?

Mooting is generally an activity that one lets go of on graduating from law school, but this does not mean its utility doesn’t carry over into the real world. In addition to providing a rigorous training that examinations or mere academia cannot offer, mooting and activities like writing for academic journals provide you with experience and skills that are invaluable in legal practice, such as clarity of thought, time management, clear argumentation and the ability to work under immense pressure. These are skills that would never be redundant to lawyers, in law school and out. While the actual law may be ever changing, these are skills that will always be useful.

What do you feel about the perception that students of certain ‘elite’ NLU’s have a much easier time in kickstarting their career as compared to law students from other colleges?

Certainly it would seem that some firms have a slight bias towards students from top NLUs. However, the beautiful thing about a field as diverse as law is that there are umpteen opportunities and options available to young graduates, from litigation to corporate law to social work to advocacy, teaching and academia and much more. Law as a field is growing every day, and its effect is seen in so many spheres that there are always meaningful ways and opportunities to work and engage with the law.

Tell us about the trimester system at NLS.

NLS has the unique trimester system followed by very few colleges in India. Rather than having two semesters every year, we have three trimesters a year. I think it is a very effective model. We did four courses in a span of three-four months. Now, even though the time-span seems short, the well structured organised course at NLS helped us cope with the trimester system threw at us.

I am yet to meet a student (from any discipline) who tells me that that the academic system and faculty at his/her college is impeccable. As far as the question of the freedom that the trimester system offers to law students goes, I think the recent success of NLS students at national and international competitions is testimonial to the fact that you can do enough and more to develop yourself in any system, if you really put your mind to it.

Which internships did you pursue during your graduation?

I pursued a variety of internships at law school. I interned as a teaching assistant in several colleges, worked under practicing lawyers and did a few corporate internships. I looked at internships as an opportunity to test and sample various fields of law, to see if we were suitable for each other. College is one of the last places where one has the opportunity to just try various things; I looked at internships as one such opportunity, which is why I tried to take up as many different internships as possible.

Were these internships all planned or just happened on the go?

Some were planned, others came along the way. My training at law school proved to be useful, but I tried to regard internships as opportunities to learn more, as opposed to exhibiting what I do know. There are certain tasks unique to working life that college cannot hope to prepare one for, and good internships bridge this gap perfectly.

Tell us about working at Luthra & Luthra.

I was offered a job at Luthra through campus placements while I was in my fourth year of college. It was surprising for me and for a few others as I had never interned at a top law firm neither did I have the grades to be called the crème de la crème of my batch. I think my teaching experience along with the practical knowledge that I had acquired during my internships came to my rescue.

Corporate lawyers are required to do a variety of things during the course of the day. Documentation, research, negotiations, coordinating with clients, counsel of the opposite side and government agency; one might be required to do any or all of these things in a single day (and night) at a law firm. It is slightly difficult to describe a typical day at work at a law firm.

How did you get involved in IDIA?

While the work at Luthra was challenging for sure, I was not happy with the extremely limited engagement with real law that such job provided. I left Luthra to be more involved with public law and hence, my obvious destination was litigation. I started practicing in Patna High Court after Luthra. While it’s true that early days in litigation is anything but ‘lucrative’, but I found the work to be more fulfilling. However, after practicing law for a few months, I realised that ‘justice’ in a court room does not necessarily translate into substantive changes at the grassroots level. Coming from one of the poorest states in India and after studying in one of the best colleges of this country, I felt the need to be more closely associated with my community and that is why I joined IDIA. Along with litigation, I am excited to work with the law in a different and useful way that brings more people into rather tightly-knit legal fraternity, and IDIA does just that.

What is it like being an independent legal practitioner at the Patna High Court?

Compared to a corporate job, in the initial day’s litigation posses very different set of challenges: (i) pay is bad, (ii) clients are rare, (iii) there is a lot of running around and dealing with a variety of people from different strata’s of society, and (iv) there is a lot of uncertainty – you might lose a great case because the judge feels differently. However, few and far between, when you do win a case all by yourself, that moment of joy is priceless.

I believe that having a personal mentor is invaluable in any profession, not just litigation. It provides unparalleled professional guidance, and there are certain skills, tips and tricks that come only with professional experience. Having a mentor not only familiarizes you with the profession, but is also a way to make your skills, merit and services more well known amongst the others in Court. Having a good mentor often works as an additional affirmation of your skill and ability, both to other lawyers and clients.

How is the environment at Patna High Court? Do the judges take kindly to the young lawyers? Any experience at the HC you would want to share?

I found the Patna High Court to be an interesting place. Several judges have been extremely supportive, and actively recognize and encourage young lawyers such as myself. It’s really quite encouraging when a judge notices you or your arguments, and I’ve seen several judges make it a point to drop a word of praise or encouragement to young lawyers such as myself.

Justice Tripathi, of the Patna High Court, once stopped me during my arguments to ask me which college I studied law from. I was taken aback at his question but when I finally told him that I had studied law from NLS, Bangalore, he smiled and said: “It seemed like it”. It was a very unusual thing to happen in a court room but something that I will cherish for a long time.

A perception that deters many students from pursuing a career in litigation instead of at law firms is deemed to be the initial grind that has to be undergone for the first few years. From your experience is it really such a rough journey for a new lawyer in the legal profession?

New litigators certainly do not have it easy, but then again, no new job is a cakewalk! Every good profession requires a foundation of at least a few years of solid hard work, and litigation is no exception. It’s difficult to weigh a profession in terms of pros and cons and decide which the “best” option is: there really is no such general answer, one must merely find the career option that suits your skills and interests best. I find litigation to be exciting, challenging and fulfilling, which, for me, more than adequately compensates for the “grind”.

Where do you see yourself five years from now?

Five year plans does not work in most systems. For me, it’s more realistic to function on an annual basis: priorities might alter five years down the line and there is no reason to stick to a plan that I made as a different person altogether.

While today I feel, I should go back to teaching sometime in the future, this coming year, I would like to continue my practise of the law along with the work I do for IDIA. I enjoy working for disenfranchised and it gives a sense of purpose and meaning to my life right now.

Lastly, what would be your message for all the law students reading this?

If at all, be in the rat race after tiring out many things and enjoying the company of the rats, the most. It’s rather stupid to want to work somewhere because others around you say that they would like to work there. Do not waste law school by worrying about the life after. Be kind to yourself and have some fun with the law and the friends that your college has to offer. You will miss them once they are gone.

June 13, 2014
Kailash Gupta on a dual degree (JD+MBA) course from Cornell, work as a paralegal and the US Legal Industry
Kailash Gupta is studying for a dual degree course from Cornell Law School. The course will certify him as a JD and as an MBA on completion. Having been educated in the US he has deep insight of the US education system which he shares with us in this interview.

In this interview he tells us about:
- Working as a paralegal at NOVA IP Law firm
- Studying and clearing for LSAT
- Studying for JD/MBA from Cornell Law School and Johnson Graduate School of Management
- The top prerequisites for a legal career in the US
Given that most of our readers are law students and young lawyers, how will you introduce yourself to them?

Hi! I am Kailash and I am currently a JD/MBA Candidate at Cornell Law School and the Johnson Graduate School of Management. I plan to work in a New York City law firm as a transactional attorney.

Amongst the various career options, what motivated you to choose law?

My decision to pursue a career in law came after exploring many different career paths as an undergraduate. I have an undergraduate degree in Economics and pursuing a degree in law, with a focus in business law, seemed like the best way to satisfy both my intellectual and analytical needs.

You have been educated in the United States. How difficult would it be for others to integrate into the education system of US?

I was born and raised in New Jersey and have not completed any sort of formal education outside the United States. That being said, integrating into American undergraduate institutions or law schools should not be an issue for international students. At Cornell and other top ranked universities, school administrators and admissions officers have recently put a greater emphasis on attracting top talent from abroad. I commonly hear several different languages being spoken as I walk through campus (including my native Telugu). International students have several student groups on campus and many US-born students are eager to make connections with students from abroad.

You are pursuing Juris Doctor Degree from Cornell Law School. What was the application procedure? Are there any entrance tests?

Cornell Law School, along with the majority of other US law schools, require applicants to write a two-page personal statement along with optional essays, including addendums to explain any issues or weak spots in one’s application. Furthermore, each applicant is required to take the Law School Admission Test (LSAT).

How did you prepare for the entrance test? Please tell us about the top three things you kept in mind while preparing for the test. Would you say it was difficult to take the test?

The LSAT consists of a total of six 35-minute sections. The sections include one writing sample, two logical reasoning (LR) sections, one reading comprehension (RC) section, one logic games (LG) section, and one experimental section. The experimental section is either a LR, LG, or RC section and does NOT count to the overall score. The writing sample is also not incorporated into the overall score, though each school to which one sends his or her score will be able to view the essay.

Top US law schools have trouble comparing candidates across different undergraduate universities and majors. Unlike other graduate schools such as medical school, law schools do not require students to take specific undergraduate classes before applying. Therefore, law school admissions officers primarily compare students based on their LSAT scores. An applicant’s undergraduate GPA, major,and institution are secondary to one’s LSAT score. Work experience comes in as the third most important criterion. Therefore, high performance on the LSAT is imperative for gaining admission.

My basic approach was to first learn the strategies of taking the exam. Investing in exam prep materials is highly encouraged. Secondly, once I was equipped with the basic strategies of how to tackle each question type in each section of the test, I spent significant time taking practice sections and full-length tests.

After each test or section, I would review the questions I got wrong, identify the question type, and practice those specific types until I was able to consistently answer them correctly. A final point to remember is the exam takes over four hours to administer. Test-takers should prepare for the mental marathon that is taking the LSAT. The best way is to take full-length tests leading up to the exam date. Still, be careful not to burn out and make sure to be well rested on exam day.

What prompted you to choose Cornell for a JD? Were there any other Universities in mind?

I was fortunate enough to be choosing between two highly ranked law schools, Georgetown University Law Center and Cornell Law School. GULC and Cornell each have their strengths. GULC is located in Washington D.C., the nation’s capital. Its location puts it in close proximity to some of the greatest legal minds of the country, which include legislators, practicing attorneys, and even the U.S. Supreme Court Justices. Furthermore, Washington D.C. has more lawyers per capita than any other city in the country. Cornell, on the other hand, is a small school with a tight-knit community. Ultimately, its small size, elite faculty, extremely strong placement into big law firms, and strength in business law made it the ideal fit for me. I also completed my undergraduate degree at Cornell so I was fully accustomed to Ithaca.

You had received the ‘CALI Excellence for the Future’ Award. What qualified you for this recognition?

The Center for Computer-Assisted Legal Instruction is a non-profit dedicated to facilitating computer assisted legal education. The CALI Excellence for the Future Award is given to students who receive the highest grade in each course, each semester, in participating law schools. I received the award in my first semester for the Torts and Lawyering courses.

What does it mean to be on the Dean’s List at the Cornell Law School?

Dean’s List is given to students who stand in the top 30% of the class for each semester of grades.

How important do you think are internships in shaping up the career of a person?

Pursuing internship(s) as a law student is imperative in securing a job post-graduation. I am in a unique situation because I am pursuing the dual degree. Dual-degree students are required to take summer classes at the business school instead of pursuing a first-year internship. Most pure JD students either do research for professors or intern for a judge, government agency, or non-profit during their first year summer. At the end of the second year of study at the law school, most students, including the dual-degree students, pursue a summer associate position at a law firm.

The second-year internships are very important in securing a job post-graduation because the vast majority of big law firms extend full-time employment offers to their summer associates. While many law students do not plan to work in big law firms in the long run, many nonetheless pursue these second-year summer associate positions and even accept full-time offers. The reason is that it is generally believed that work in big law firms prepare you for a career in government or business.

You are also pursuing an MBA from Johnson Graduate School of Management. What motivated you to take it up? Would you say an MBA would better equip you in a legal career?

As a law student with aspirations to work as a transactional attorney, pursuing an MBA was a no-brainer. Transactional attorneys are constantly poring over business documents in their daily work. Furthermore, transactional attorneys are often called upon to advise their clients in making decisions that directly affect a client’s business.

Having a working knowledge of how large businesses operate, which an MBA will undoubtedly provide, is a major benefit when beginning your career as a transactional attorney. Furthermore, the opportunity cost of one-year’s worth of salary normally associated with pursuing a dual degree program does not exist in Cornell’s three-year program.

You began your professional career with NOVA IP Law as a Paralegal. How did you apply? What did your work profile consist of? Did it require knowledge of law?

I applied for the position through Cornell’s job posting website prior to graduation as an undergraduate. The position did not require any prior knowledge of law. Working as a paralegal is a great introduction into the legal field and serves as an opportunity for one to really decide if a career in law is the right one.

I worked in a small firm outside Washington D.C. and the experience solidified my desire to pursue a career in law. I assisted attorneys in legal research, edited and wrote contracts and court documents, and also took on all the clerical tasks associated with office management. Other than that, I also had the opportunity to manage several attorneys and paralegals working on a short-term basis in a document review project.

What does being a Paralegal mean? How different is it from being an associate at a law firm?

A paralegal is a legal assistant and serves essential functions in a law firm. Paralegals are often divided into two distinct categories, career paralegals and short-term paralegals. Career paralegals pursue the position as a career while short-term paralegals are often recent college graduates who are looking to work in the legal field before pursuing a law degree. Because I worked in a small firm I was able to take on some of the tasks that normally would be reserved for career paralegals in larger firms. A friend of mine worked as a paralegal in a large firm in Los Angeles and told me that several of the career paralegals were highly sought after by the firm’s partners when staffing different projects. Whereas first-year and second-year associates have minimal practical understanding of real world law practice, most career paralegals more often than not have a better working knowledge of the law.

Even in our Law course, our professors constantly reminded us to turn to the staff paralegals as sources of help when navigating the big law waters as a fresh-out-of-law-school associate.

What are your plans for the coming five years?

I plan to finish my degree program in 2016 and work as an associate in a law firm in New York City for the foreseeable future.

What are the top prerequisites for a successful legal career in the U.S. for people from other countries?

Depending on your career goals and aspirations, the unfortunate truth for international students aspiring to work in the US as a lawyer is that they must pursue a JD. Most LL.M. students I speak to tell me that it is very difficult to secure a job with a big law firm with just an LL.M. Many LL.M. students sit for the New York bar at the end of their programme and utilize their bar admission through international deals or litigation.

Beyond the degree itself, law firms look for strong oral and written communication skills and top grades regardless of the fact whether you are an international or a domestic student. International students should stay updated on the status of US legal employment market. The past seven years have been especially tough for law students in finding employment and a huge bracket of unemployed law graduates exists. The fair logical leap is that most firms, regardless of size, are going to choose a domestic candidate as the more costly international ones need to be paid higher.

Give us a few tips on finding out the right university for a J.D or an LL.M.

If any readers are interested in pursuing a JD or LL.M. at a US law school some helpful sources include:

top-law-schools.com: This website has helpful information on constructing personal statements, school profiles and rankings, LSAT preparation, etc.

lawschooltransparency.com: This website has helpful employment statistics for easy comparison between U.S. law schools.
June 10, 2014
Jaiveer Shergill on being a spokesperson for INC, career in politics and practice as an SC Advocate
Jaiveer Shergill graduated from WBNUJS, Kolkata in 2006. Thereafter he worked as an associate for Economic Laws Practice, in their Corporate Commercial/Indirect Tax Team in Delhi for some time.

In June, ’12 he made his entry into Politics by joining Indian National Congress and then he was appointed as a spokesperson in January, ’14. He has been the India Representative of Young Lawyers Committee at International Bar Association and presently, he is working as an independent practitioner in Supreme Court of India.

We asked him a few questions about:
- Choosing a specific arena and establishing a legal career
- Being an independent practitioner at Supreme Court
- Career options for a lawyer in politics
- and many other questions relevant to a successful legal career
How should a student structure his internship during law school?

How to make a conscious career choice – corporate vs. litigation?

Who are going to be the best teachers in a law firm?

How far is theoretical knowledge in law schools consistent with the practical arena?

Which forum will give the best exposure? What are most important skills required for subsistence?

When is the right time to decide whether to become drafter or pleader?

What can you expect to learn from a senior counsel?

When is the right time to consider practicing independently?

What does going independent really entail?

How do you measure success? What should be the milestones?

What are the paybacks of practicing independently?

Should you choose what kind of matters to take between civil and criminal?

What are the career options for lawyers in politics?

What are the options in corporate transactions? Is seat-hopping more beneficial in litigation or corporate?
June 9, 2014
Dwijen Joshi on being an exceptional scholar, LL.M. from NUS and a career in International Arbitration
Dwijen Joshi is an exceptionally meritorious student of 2013 batch of GNLU, Gandhinagar. He has been a gold medalist in Arbitration. His interest in arbitration and litigation led him to pursue an LL.M. from National University of Singapore. He talks about the Arbitration proceedings in Singapore and he has a lot to say about the opportunities there.

We asked Dwijen about:
- Winning a gold medal in Arbitration and scoring well in exams
- Studying LL.M. for a career in International Arbitration
- Faculty, Finances and overall academics at NUS
- Developing interest in Arbitration and ADR
- Scope of Indian Lawyers in Singapore
Most of our readers are law students and young lawyers. How will you introduce yourself to them?

I completed my under graduation from Gujarat National Law University in 2013. Immediately after completing my undergraduate studies I headed to National University of Singapore to pursue Masters in Corporate and Financial Services Law. Within the broad legal sphere I have carved out my interest for Arbitration Law. Other than Law, I am very passionate about Music. I have been learning/playing Tabla since my childhood. During my time in GNLU I was part of a talented bunch of musicians in the Music Club.

How did you gravitate towards law? Why law and not engineering or medical studies?

I chose Law as I think there is no other field that has a convergence with all walks of life. I never saw myself as doing anything else other than being a Legal Professional. This is a profession, which tests your assertiveness and sensitivity to the aspects of society, which requires some attention or examination. I believe law is as much about contemplation and thinking as much as it is about voicing out your stand.

It is the most dynamic profession that gives you the liberty and tools to question things that would not seem obvious to someone not trained in law. Though there are different branches of law dealing with two main building blocks of society – Government and Corporations, there is one general theme running in the undercurrents and that is of ‘fairness’. I have always been fascinated by this word.

My family background also influenced my decision to study law. At a very young age, I began to understand the nuances of Law from my father and grandfather. Though, I always had family support in whichever field I joined, learning law was a very natural process and I took the plunge.

You were one of the most exceptional students at GNLU. It’s not every day that someone bags gold medals! Please give us a few actionable tips on managing higher grades.

Thanks for a very generous description! I am very grateful to GNLU for awarding me the ‘Late Mr. Milon Kumar Banerji Gold Medal’ for Alternative Dispute Resolution (Arbitration). It is a very heartening recognition.

As far as studies are concerned it is a very personal thing so what worked for me may not be best for others. Therefore my advice is very holistically directed. I think hard work is sine qua non for good grades. Life in law school is like a marathon you have to keep running till the last semester and closely watch your pace throughout the five years. I believe that higher grades are the by-products of the grit and passion that you show towards learning and therefore, learning should be the goal and not the grades. This will make studying enjoyable.

I always preferred to study from my own notes as it narrows down your area of focus and can be helpful for revisions during the exams. It is very important to maintain a good mental outlook throughout the whole process. Also, I would say smart work is more important than hard work. Try to identify more relevant areas and focus on them. Regular studies will help manage your time better throughout the semesters.

To save myself from falling into nerdy bracket, in my defense, I believe five years is a golden period to enjoy to the fullest. For some it will be the last few years as a student. So it is more important to have fun, engage in extra-curricular activities and have a balanced routine. I have been fortunate to meet amazing people here and forged relationships for lifetime.

What was your motivation behind pursuing LL.M.? When did you finally decide that you need to do Masters?

The decision to pursue LL.M. was the most important decision that I made in last two years. It was in my fourth year of undergraduate studies that I felt I still had one more year of student life left and took the decision. Therefore, I did not get myself registered with Committee on Recruitment Affairs (CRA) for placements. My motivation to pursue an LL.M was to have an exposure of studying law in a top ranking International Law School. It was a risky decision as it was an investment of time, energy and money. And I had again exposed myself to academic judging for sixth year in a row. But it was my passion to experience the intellectual rigour of a Law School such as NUS, which kept me driven.

I had planned to build specialized knowledge base and skill set through an LL.M, which was not possible through an undergraduate degree. An LL.M provided me with a head start into such complex legal concepts which otherwise would be possible only after two or three years of practice.

How did you choose NUS over others? How did you go about choosing a university?

I followed bottoms-up approach while making the applications. I sorted out my areas of Interest and my expectations from an LL.M in terms of knowledge and skill-set. Then I went about choosing the universities, which are reputed I was interested in. Finally I had short-listed only five universities where I eventually sent my applications. All were UK based except for NUS.

I chose not to apply to US, as pursuing LL.M there is little expensive affair. In London-based universities one gets to study four modules throughout the LL.M. whereas NUS requires completion of total 40 credits, which means one has to study 10 modules of four credits each. I chose to go to Singapore also because of my interest in Arbitration Law and increasing popularity of Singapore as a Hub of Arbitration in Asia.

Does NUS provide students with scholarships? Are there any other institutions, which provide scholarships?

NUS does provide for scholarships. The criterion for selection is competitive. I am not sure if they have instituted scholarships especially for Indian students. There are some scholarships awarded by British Council for UK universities. Felix and Inlaks scholarships are also very famous amongst law students. The former is only for UK universities. Ministry of HRD also has some scholarship schemes that keep changing so one has to look for it constantly.

Did you undergo a rigorous academic schedule? How was that different from your under-graduate course?

Life in NUS was rigorous in comparison to the under-graduate course. Time management is the key to grapple with the demands of the respective modules chosen. The faculty will expect you to go through the reading materials before each class. For some modules the assigned reading for each seminar may be painfully long and may run up to nearly hundred pages or more. The class hours are also very long. One Seminar will be three hours long.

The class contains a very diverse group of people. Some of them will have had experience of working in law firms in their home jurisdictions on the issues being discussed in the class. So for some modules the faculty recommends to have some foundational understanding. The assessment patterns for the courses are diverse. The assessments are split across the semester and the submissions may fall within close dates. Evaluations include class presentations, research paper submissions, group exercises – I also had a chance to appear in an Arbitration moot for one of my courses.

NUS is well renowned for its brilliant faculty. How was your experience with the faculty?

The NUS law faculty consists of professors who have established an international repute for their contribution intheir respective areas of expertise. The best part of NUS is that it invites professors from different universities across the world to come down and conduct intensive courses in NUS itself. Intensive modules last for about three weeks. I had an opportunity to undertake Word Trade Law seminars conducted by Prof. Joseph Weiler. He is currently President of European University Institute, Florence. He is a world-renowned academician in the field of Trade Laws. He is also a distinguished panel member of World Trade Organization. I took a module on International Investment Law taught by Prof. Loukas Mistellis. He is the Director of International Arbitration at Queen Mary University, London.

Some courses have very high demand and usually oversubscribed including the Mergers & Acquisition course conducted by Prof. Umakanth Varottil. He is an ex AMSS partner who is revered for his expertise in Corporate Law. The way stalwarts like them conduct the seminars sometimes becomes very exhilarating. As, some may follow Socratic method of teaching. In Prof. Weiler’s class it is suicidal to go unprepared. His random questions thrown at you compels you to spontaneously frame complex legal arguments and make you think on your feet. An unanswered question may bring embarrassment. It is this unique learning experience, which helps one develop exceptional skill-set necessary for an international lawyer to be. Some professors prefer lecture method of teaching and the class aura is cool with such professors.

How difficult was studying abroad in terms of finding accommodation, finances and settling in?

Finding an accommodation is not an issue at NUS. The university has built state of the art accommodation infrastructure called UTown. It is situated at Kent Ridge campus that is few metro-stations away from the Bukit-Timah campus where the law school is situated. The policy of NUS is to give preference to research students pursuing a doctorate and exchange students while allocating accommodation. Nevertheless, many people are able to successfully get accommodation within the university accommodation itself.

NUS provide internal bus service to shuttle students between Utown to law campus. Other than that, there are private hostels, which are just walking distance away from the law campus. Two such places popular amongst LL.M students coming to NUS are Evans Hostel and Singapore International Campus. I was putting up at College Green Villas, which was just a stone’s throw away from the law campus. As for finances my parents supported me.

You were involved in a Bilateral Investment Treaty (BIT) case last year. What was this all about? How did you get to work on this? What did your job entail?

International Arbitrations can be broadly classified into International CommercialArbitration and Investment Treaty Arbitration. India is signatory to several Bilateral Investment Treaties (BIT) with various countries. A foreign investor from the country, which is Signatory to a BIT with India, can invoke Investment Arbitration against India under such treaty. This is a developing area of Arbitration and the law is still in formative stage. The issues pertaining to jurisdiction and enforcement are most likely to come-up in such cases. I knew of a law firm in Delhi – Dutt Menon and Dunmorrsett that dealt with the famous Vodafone Tax case. They provided me an opportunity to work with them on a BIT arbitration issue. It was a very exciting opportunity and a constructive engagement before heading back to NUS.

What are the internship opportunities in Singapore?

It is possible to get internships in Singapore-based law firms provided the applications are sent at the right time to the right firm. For those coming to NUS for LL.M it will be helpful to them if they prepare a list of the firms where they want to intern before coming to Singapore. During the course of the semester managing internship applications alongside the usual coursework tasks, becomes little edgy.

How did you develop interest in Arbitration? Where do you see yourself by the end of the coming five years?

I had an interest in Dispute Resolution especially litigationeven before joining law school. At that time I did not know much about arbitration. My first initiation into the subject was when I chose to write a paper on it in my first year of Law School itself. Gradually with internships, interactions with the experts in the area and of course with formal initiation into the subject in GNLU, I realized that I have a knack for this area. Five years down the line I see myself as a counsel involved in Litigation as well as Arbitration. In the long term I see myself as working in Dispute Resolution practice area of an Indian Law firm. Moreover I see myself as an Indian lawyer qualified to practice in UK and Singapore after having cleared QLTS (Qualified Lawyer Transfer Scheme) and FPE (Foreign Practitioner Examination) for the respective jurisdictions.

Do you think that Singapore is gradually becoming the hub of Arbitration in Asia, especially for Indian Arbitrations? What are your thoughts on this? What are the opportunities for Indian Lawyers?

Singapore is becoming a favorite destination for the Arbitration Practitioners across Asia including India. The number of Arbitration agreements involving Indian parties, stipulating Singapore as a seat of Arbitration is increasing. A lot of sophisticated Indian Arbitration disputes are being settled in Singapore International Arbitration Center. It is a preferred destination also for ad-hoc arbitrations as Singapore courts have adopted a very favourable arbitration policy. Many Indian companies have their investments in Singapore so it becomes easy to enforce the award. In Singapore, Foreign-qualified lawyers who pass the Foreign Practitioner Examinations (FPE) can apply for a Foreign Practitioner Certificate (FPC) from the Attorney General to practice in permitted areas of Singapore law.

Lastly, what would be your message to people who want to take up a career in Arbitration?

I will say it is an exciting career option. It is also very challenging at the same time. Arbitration and Litigation are two sides of the same coin. So if one enjoys spending more time arguing cases outside the office comforts, this is where they should see themselves. The skill set required for a counsel arguing before a court and before an Arbitration Tribunal is same. Except in the case of International Arbitration, the style of arguments differs if the Tribunal consists of experts trained in Civil Law in which case the style of arguments is substantially different from what Common Law lawyers like us are trained to use.

Lastly, I will say for those who do not have a legal background in their family and want to pursue litigation as a career option, just go for it if that is your calling. There will be hardships in the beginning, the incentives are less but in the end it is your passion, which will drive you forward towards success – so that in the end you can proudly say ‘And that has made all the difference’.
June 8, 2014
Prashanth Potluri on being a LAMP fellow, career in policy work and taking time out for football
Prashanth Potluri is a graduate of 2011 batch from School of Law, Christ University. He has been a LAMP fellow and till recently he worked as a Senior Specialist in Public Affairs and Advocacy at Genesis Burson-Marsteller. He is famous among his colleagues as a passionate footballer and most amazingly he could take time out from a busy schedule for football as a law student and even after joining work. In this interview he talks about:
- Taking time out for football from a busy schedule
- Working as a legislative and research assistant for HRD Ministry and being a LAMP fellow
- A career in Policy
- Work experience at Genesis Burston-Marsteller and ThoughtWorks
Given that most of our readers are law students and young lawyers, how will you introduce yourself to them?

I am a graduate from the 2006 – 2011 batch of the School of Law, Christ University (SLCU), Bangalore. I went on to pursue the LAMP fellowship after graduating, shortly after which I completed a course in Leadership Development at the Indian School of Business, Hyderabad. I am an avid football fan and the game of football has been my biggest teacher. I have always been very clear since my initial days at law school, that I would want to make a career in a field that isn’t directly related to the law and the two things that I have always loved were football and politics.

Amongst the various career options, what motivated you to choose law?

Frankly speaking, I didn’t have too many options. I was a mediocre student in school and I was in the commerce stream. I only did well for myself in the Social Sciences. This gave me an indication as to where my interests lie. I have been fascinated with politics since a young age and a law degree felt like a useful tool for me to have to pursue a career in politics and its allied fields such as policy studies, public affairs and administration etc. I have never wanted to be a lawyer during my time at law school and after graduating either. I chose law as a means to my political ends and also because I knew it would enhance my ability to think in a different and more holistic manner.

How was your law school experience? What did you do to keep the monotony off the law school?

I had a very rough start to my law school experience. I was frustrated that I did not get into any of the top 3 national law schools, which I believed I deserved at that time I made up my mind that I would take the entrance exams the second time. Having failed to get through the top 3 schools again, I realized that I would spend the next 5 years here and that’s when I decided to embrace my fate. In retrospect, it’s the best thing I have done because, I ended up having the best 5 years of my life from 2006-2011 and I had the fortune of meeting some of the best people there and building relationships that I know will last a lifetime. I realized that a law school experience is only as good as the people you are surrounded by and we had some very intelligent and fun-loving people at SLCU. I made sure I took part in quite a few extracurricular activities such as football, quizzes, debates and music and this made sure my mind was active and constantly challenged and there was no room for monotony. I was never much of a mooter and the few times I did moot, it was because I had no other choice or because a friend’s team could have used a researcher. If I sensed any kind of monotony kicking in, I would make sure I start doing something new and fun to keep me entertained and living in a fantastic city like Bangalore definitely helped my cause!

How did you manage time to pursue your passion for football while pursuing a law course?

I made it very evident to my family, faculty and peers that football was, is and always will be my first love and passion and I wouldn’t treat it as an ‘extra activity’. This didn’t go down too well with my faculty and college staff, but this was a decision that I was entitled to make. The manner in which I managed football and the pressures of a law school was not done in the best way possible, but I managed nonetheless. The classroom chatter included football talk, match analysis and sometimes even sneaking in the occasional YouTube clips during class hours. Once the exam dates were announced, I’d go back to my books and ensure I put in enough hours to get good score. I never missed a football game even during exam time though. In the words of a very wise boy (Calvin), last minute panic served as the best kind of motivation to make sure I did well for myself academically in law school.

Do you still play for or manage football clubs? Please share some tips on time management.

I don’t play football as often as I would like (everyday) due to commitments at work, but I make sure I play once a week. I was recently offered a trial with Histon F.C., an English club that play at the Ryman Premier Level and I have decided not to pursue that as it didn’t seem pragmatic in many ways. I currently don’t manage any teams although I did so for 5 years at law school with the college team and this experience has taught me critical life skills such as leadership, managing people, identifying talent and nurturing it, managing deadlines etc. and I am truly grateful for that experience. I couldn’t have managed a football team so well without the efforts of the team itself. We were a self managing unit of sorts and I was just leading the way, but on a day to day basis, everyone did what they were expected to. I clearly laid out the expectations I had from them and they always delivered. Everybody played a critical role in making sure there was a sense of camaraderie and family in the team. This ensured on-the-field success and off-the-field friendships. My tip on time management would be to have a clear agenda for your day, allocate specific time for each activity and make sure you are well rested so as to be physically capable of doing what you have planned. Sound sleep, nourishment and clarity of thought in managing your time is very important.

You worked as a Legislative and Research Assistant for the HRD Ministry in your fifth year. How did this happen? What was the application procedure?

This was a classic case of being at the right place at the right time. I had not formally applied to it and there was no opening per se. I was very interested in education and public policy at that time and thought it would be a good idea to work at the HRD ministry. I later met a family friend who helped me get the opportunity to work in the ministry.

You became a LAMP fellow just after graduation. What are the criteria to apply? How did you go about your application process?

The LAMP fellowship requires you to be a graduate and within 25 years of age, – from a relevant academic background and expects you to commit yourself for a period of one year. I received an e-mail regarding this fellowship through the college and I looked it up, it was very compatible and accurate with regards to what I wanted to do in my career, which was politics. The LAMP fellowship was a very tangible step I took to ensure I built myself a career in politics and public policy.

What was your work profile as a LAMP fellow? How did it help build your career in Policy?

I worked with Mr. Tiruchi Siva from the DMK who was a Rajya Sabha MP and the Chairman of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Industry and a Member of the Joint Parliamentary Committee on the 2G Spectrum Allocation.My daily tasks consisted of intensive research that facilitated his day to day parliamentary duties and ensure that he was well equipped for his parliamentary debates, standing committee meetings etc with the best possible research.

Working closely with an MP gives you the kind of insight into policy making that no other job does. You get to witness a policy from an idea to an actual policy that gets implemented. This is very useful in pursuing a career in public policy in the long run.

We often hear that more lawyers are getting into ‘policy work’. What does this actually involve? What is it that policy lawyers do?

Public Policy professionals are a bit different from lawyers with regards to what they do on a daily basis. Policy work relates to the study, understanding, drafting and interpreting of rules pertaining to a very specific subject unlike a statute/legislation which is meant for a broader and more generic set of circumstances. This is why lawyers do well for themselves in this field. Every organization has a set of internal policies, every ministry in the government have a set of internal policies that facilitate the working of the larger statutes that come under their purview and lawyers are equipped with a foresight and thought process that lets them know what a comprehensive policy should entail, better than people from other academic backgrounds. Public policy professionals spend a lot of time researching on policies of other countries and organizations and get a comprehensive understanding on what the most suitable policy would be for their specific need. It does have a lot of overlapping with what lawyers do which is why lawyers are most preferred in this field. We get to research, draft and interpret policies on a gamete of issues minus the task of going to courts and presenting our case. We let the lawyers do that for us 🙂

You also worked with Genesis Burson-Marsteller. What was your job profile there? What was a normal workday like?

I worked as a Senior Specialist in Public Affairs and Advocacy at Genesis Burson-Marsteller and I was based at Delhi/Gurgaon. It was the best experience I had as a working professional dealing with a variety of corporate and political clients. Normal work days varied depending on whether I was working on a corporate or political client. With regards to corporate clients, my job entailed me to map out a comprehensive list of stakeholders, profile them and prepare an outreach and advocacy strategy for the clients. We also had meetings and calls with our clients which ensured we constantly had something to do. Political clients were a completely different ball game and this was the part of my job that I cherished the most. I got to work on a few election campaigns including the recently concluded general elections and my tasks included constant research on various talking points, drafting speeches, articles, talking points for the client, undertaking surveys to assess how much we have progressed, prepare a comprehensive strategy on how to best utilize the resources in hand etc.

You completed a course from Indian School of Business on Leadership Development. Please tell us a little about it. How did you decide to take it up? How effective was the course for your career?

The leadership development course at ISB was a part of our LAMP fellowship. PRS, the organization that undertakes the LAMP fellowship tied up with ISB that year to undertake a course in Leadership Development so as to supplement and enhance the skill set we had already developed on the job. I had a fantastic time doing this course and it has definitely been a huge value addition with regards to my career options. It taught me to clearly articulate my thoughts and carefully execute a vision and motivate my colleagues during testing times which has proven to be very useful while working with different organizations.

You had worked with ThoughtWorks for some time. What was your job profile there?

It was a research centric job which taught me a lot on market research and fine tuned my ability to make and give presentations. It was not a conventional policy job but it was fun working there as it provided me with a lot of insight on various business verticals and business trends. I worked with some amazing people there and it gave me a more global perspective on a lot of issues and taught me how to manage expectations with the people I work with.

What would be your message to our readers who would want to take up a career in Policy?

To put it quite simply, do it. It is a very rewarding and viable career option for lawyers and non-lawyers alike. I hope law students stop looking at this as an ‘alternative career path’ and look at it as a conventional career choice in the future. From my experiences in this field I can vouch for the fact that it is a challenging area to work in and it requires a lot of dedication and an ability to think in a holistic manner with proper foresight. The ability to think and articulate yourself is very important in the field of public policy and its allied areas. There are tons of career options and if anyone is interested in taking it up, I would be glad to provide any kind of clarity they may require.
June 5, 2014
Debadyuti Banerjee, Assistant Manager, Lexplosion, on studying abroad, and her editorial experience
Debadyuti Banerjee graduated at the top of her class from WBNUJS, Kolkata, in 2011. Thereafter she went to King’s College, London for an LL.M. in International Commercial and Business Laws. She has been in the editorial board of both NUJS and KCL’s Law Review. Presently, she is working as an Assistant Manager at Lexplosion, Kolkata.

In this interview we ask her about:
- Studying in King’s College
- Insight into the International Commercial and Business Laws Course
- Experience as a member of Editorial Board of NUJS and KCL Law Review.
- Work at Lexplosion and internship requirements
How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

I am a lawyer by profession, and I’d like to clarify at the very outset that I did not gravitate towards Law but, in fact, chose it after careful consideration. I decided right after ICSE that pursuing law was the way forward for me. Till then I had been toying with two very different subjects—engineering in Computer Science or English literature. And then, I landed on the perfect combination—law!

Awareness of the presence of conflicts in every sphere, from personal to political and the tiff between theory and implementation—how sometimes something in theory looks good but may actually be different in reality—made me keen on pursuing law as a career. It might be pertinent to mention that I do come from a family which has a long history (and hopefully future) of lawyers and judges and it’s always been a part of who I am.

I made the switch from Science to Humanities for ISC and started preparing for the National Admission Test for admission to NUJS. I cannot begin to emphasize how helpful subjects like Economics, Sociology and Political Science at the school level were to build a solid base for the first couple of years in a LL.B course.

Did you have an opportunity to study the subjects you chose to specialize in your LL.M?

My specialization was in International Commercial and Business Laws from Kings College London (KCL/Kings). Other than World Trade Law, which was taught on the bare minimum terms in NUJS, I did not really get an opportunity to study the subjects that I chose in my LL.M. Lectures in World Trade Law were delivered by Federico Ortino and Piet Eeckhout, who are subject matter experts in the EU and thorough in research in this area as well. I must make a special mention of the subjects lectured by Mihael Jeklic (who has also been associated with Harvard Law School in the past)—Legal Negotiation and Analytical and Quantitative Methods for Lawyers (AQM).

Mihael is a very cordial teacher and his classes were an absolute pleasure to attend. He adopted an extremely casual attitude inside the class, going as far as to encourage us to eat our breakfast in our early morning class! Legal negotiation involved us to engage in real life negotiation situations, sometimes in class and at other times of our convenience. These exercises consisted of real life scenarios, requiring participants to come up with well thought out BATNAs, be aware of the Zone of Possible Agreement (ZOPA) and learning on the job to exert soft skills to achieve the closest best result each person had in his/her mind. Closely related to this was AQM, where things became more interesting. These lectures weren’t lectures at all, in that it was completely a discussion.

We got to read and talk about interesting topics like decision analysis, game theory, behavior of markets especially its irrationality, bubbles and their growth trajectory and a fair bit of accounting. The skills learnt in these courses go quite far to teach one to evaluate real life scenarios from all angles on a rational basis and would find application in litigation as well as a corporate scenario. A thing to note here was that I was the only Indian national in my batch to take both these courses. Legal negotiation was a bit more popular among my Indian counterparts as it was a half module, while AQM was a heavier subject which involved deep diving.

For example: We were expected to take part in an exercise on Marketwatch which provided valuable insights into the mechanics of trading and provided several discussions surrounding efficient markets theory and behavioral finance. For those interested to read up on this further, I would suggest “Freakonomics” to be a good starting place. I would also recommend reading of “A Random Walk Down Wall Street” for its stellar theory on the efficient market hypothesis and Warren Buffet’s rebuttal of it.

These are very interesting eye-opening subjects. Apologies if I rambled there. I also took International Commercial Arbitration on which I chose to submit my primary research paper. This comprised a much larger group, both international and Indian, the lectures themselves were more of a formal structured style and there were periodic (about fortnightly) written assignments to complete. Lectures were delivered by Toby Landau, Salim Moollan, Ricky Diwan, Sam Wordsworth, Maria Duval, among others.

How did you go about choosing which college to go to for your LL.M?

Having pursued an integrated B.A.LL.B (Hons) programme at the UG level from a prestigious law school in India, pursuing a Master of Laws seemed to be the next step for me especially since I have always been academically predisposed. I was sure that I wanted to go to the United Kingdom for my postgraduate studies. I had applied to Kings College London, Queen Mary University of London, University of Durham, University of Kent and University of Nottingham based on my course preference. I was accepted to all these Universities and was offered scholarships at KCL and Kent. I accepted KCL because of several reasons—location (both in UK and in London), faculty, ratings (consistently ranked in the world top 20 for law), history and background, employability ratings and the most important, the Kings International Graduate Scholarship that I was offered. There were only two scholarships given out that year and I was thrilled to have been offered one. Finances were always the most important consideration in my mind. (I’ll talk about it in some detail later.) KCL is international in its composition and outlook, with a wide array of organisations and societies made available for students, and this offered me a superbly rich study environment. It is located in the heart of London, and by that I mean, I could see the London Eye every day, the law department is housed in the historic Somerset House—it doesn’t get much better than that!

You have worked on the board of the NUJS & the Kings Student Law Review. How has that experience been for you?

That’s a very good question. Both experiences were fantastic albeit in very different ways. I worked as a Senior Associate of the NUJS Law Review and it was a great learning experience to make the transition from merely writing and onto mentoring, reviewing and finishing articles within a given time period. There was some editorial work involved, but not much, it was more about writing articles. Kings Student Law Review (KSLR) was a different ball game altogether. As a member of the Editorial Board there was a good amount of reviewing and decision making in the selection process involved. Since I was also heading the copy editing team (which is somewhat rare for a LL.M student as the other guys heading teams were PhD students), I think my previous Law Review work experience held me in good stead there. The painful bit of citing articles as a writer was of great help when I was doing the editing especially as OSCOLA was the norm and it was new to me. It was amazing that I had the independence to choose my own subordinate team members. Having been a Law Review member certainly did add to my resume when I was tailoring it for the LL.M application.

How did your interning experience boost your LL.M. application?

(Debadyuti has interned at Khaitan, Amarchand & Fox & Mandal in addition to interning with advocates and Supreme Court judges.)

A well rounded CV is always helpful and I think that a variety of internships at leading law firms or advocates or even Supreme Court clerkship showed willingness to learn different skills and thriving under pressure. I believe that this unique blend of experiences also gave me an unique point of view in life and that was super helpful while writing the Case for Support applications for scholarships. Each of these internships imparted new skills and a view into how these organisations work so I would say cumulatively they all helped in grooming my legal skill set.

How difficult was studying abroad in terms of finding accommodation, finances and settling in?

Personally I faced a lot of trouble with finding accommodation in London, but mine was a one off thing. There was a certain amount of time during which I was staying with kind strangers and then flat-sharing with a friend. I was finally offered a place in Kings College Hall (There are separate applications for accommodations as well—the various application processes are mind boggling!). It was a beautiful old Victorian building with a park and a thriving international body of students which made my life incredibly interesting! I got the opportunity of interacting with a wide milieu of students (both UG and PG) cutting across continents and cultures. I would definitely recommend living in student halls for the experience it offers. One needs to be careful of finances and carefully plan the expenditure from beforehand, otherwise it’s easy to go overboard since London is an expensive city. However, there are several concessions available to students like the Oyster card and discounts at departmental stores. I was extremely thankful to have been offered a scholarship award as I was very clear that I would not be pursuing my masters without one. There are several attractive scholarships available at KCL especially full scholarships now that it has received extremely generous donations from its alumni.

How was the faculty and academic schedule at KCL?

I spoke in detail about the faculty and the subjects before so I won’t repeat myself. A typical day would be early morning classes, hanging out with my fellow LL.M mates in the canteen discussing any topic under the sun, afternoon classes (if any), going to the library to study/pick up books, going back for late evening classes (some were scheduled at 7 pm so that active members of the Bar could come down to lecture), travelling for an hour to go back to hostel (Travelling is a big part of living in London!), reading up for future lectures and/or assignments. Readings were given beforehand and one was expected to have read most (if not all) the articles or pieces of work on the list. If you are not reading and not updated, it is very difficult to keep up with the lectures and engage in a meaningful discussion with the class. It will be waste of time if you’re not engaged in the classroom discussions is what I think. There were regular assignments and written essays which needed to be handed in on specified dates, so it was an intense course and pretty busy.

Was there time enough for non academic pursuits at KCL?

You need to find time for non-academic pursuits. There’s no work without play! In London there’s always something or the other happening—be it wine tasting sessions, guided tours, and the like. I found the study-life balance to be easy to handle and anyone who is good at time management would enjoy their time in KCL and London. There is an education happening inside the classroom and there is an education that London as a city has to offer. It feels extremely rewarding to have gotten a taste of both.

How in your opinion is the LL.M experience abroad different from that in India?

Not having pursued a LL.M from India, comparing an undergraduate course in India to a postgraduate course in the UK might be a little unfair so I would not like to venture there. However, I would like to emphasize on the world view it imparted and the variety of specialized skills I picked up in my LL.M.

Again, I cannot really comment on the decision of my batch-mates. Personally speaking, it was never about the job prospects. I was placed as a part of the CRC process with a law firm in Mumbai which I declined to go abroad for my higher studies. I have always been keenly interested in legal writing / research and that’s what led to the LL.M.

There is a school of thought that labels LL.Ms as being little more than an expensive holiday unless the individual concerned wishes to enter the world of academia/research? Your thoughts?

I am yet to come across a person who has gone on this “holiday” terming it as one! It is expensive and I would not dream of having gone on a fully self-funded LL.M without a scholarship. So the “expensive” bit is definitely true. I rate the LL.M to be an educative experience beyond par—both inside and outside of the classroom. Whether one practices, joins the corporate world or is into research is a purely personal preference, but I am sure reading for an LL.M helps in that journey. In my experience, employers also give a fair amount of weightage to an education abroad.

Tell us a bit about Lexplosion. What is an ordinary work day like?

Lexplosion is a new age company which is blending law with technology to solve clients’ pain points. Its tagline is to “Innovate Legally” and its main product offering is a cloud-based software which offers regulatory and legal compliance management. Other than that, it also provides a plethora of services which includes a fair bit of work that a typical law firm does, like legal research on specific client queries, contract drafting, due diligence and the like. Lexplosion was set up by a group of ex AMSS, GE, Seth Dua alumni. It’s a young place with the average age being around 30. There is no ordinary work day as such; each day brings with it a set of challenging activities my way.

Can you tell us something about mentoring interns at Lexplosion.

I am happy with the law students that I have had the chance to interact with during my stint as a mentor here. Most are bright, enthusiastic and make me optimistic about the new gen lawyers. I wish to emphasize writing skills which is frequently missed out on. It’s important as a lawyer to have impeccable research and writing skills. And by that I mean looking at primary sources, citing everything properly and deep diving into issues to address multifarious angles. You don’t need to write using a lot of meaningless words strung together. Writing in simple formal English which shows depth of thought is how one should start.

Regarding internship applications…a well written cover letter and a proper CV with no grammatical/spelling mistakes are a MUST and automatically points towards a person being organized and diligent. Random applications with multiple addressees are not welcome. And that does not mean putting everybody in the bcc either. There is also a telephonic interview as part of the selection process here and that is very helpful to both parties involved for determining suitability.

Given a chance to turn back the clock would you have done anything differently from what you’ve done?

Not second guess a lot of things!

What would be your suggestion to law students who plans to go for higher studies?

Do your research on the courses, faculty, living costs et al., do not blindly follow rankings and go to a University which would suit you the best. Apply well in advance of the respective deadlines for application to the selected course, scholarships and accommodation, and put in a fair bit of thought to each application. Honesty shines. I had made a controversial quote in my SOP for the KCL scholarship and had a lengthy discussion about it with my mentors at the KCL scholarship ceremony. Important takeaway for me was that people will remember you for who you are and what you stand for.
May 30, 2014
Arjun Natarajan, Advocate, JSA, on independent practice, being a first generation lawyer, and commercial law
Arjun Natarajan graduated from V. M. Salgaocar College of Law, Panaji, in 2009. During his time as an undergraduate, he has interned at the Chambers of Advocate S. Sheroan, Human Rights Law Network, New Delhi, O.P.Khaitan & C0., Christian Medical College, Vellore (C.M.C., Vellore) – Legal Department, Chambers of Sr. Advocate Mr. K.K. Venugopal, New Delhi, and Karanjawala & Co., New Delhi.

After graduation he moved into litigation practice at Singh & Singh. Later, he started his independent practice focusing on cable and broadcasting disputes at the Hon’ble TDSAT. He recently joined JSA in their Regulatory and Policy group with focus on Communications i.e., Telecom & Broadcasting.

In this interview he talks to us about:
- Taking up litigation early after graduation
- Setting up independent practice with the Hon’ble TDSAT
- Joining JSA’s Communications practice
Tell us a bit about your childhood and life before college.

I spent my childhood in Calcutta and in Pilani. After passing the tenth standard in 2002, I did what everyone used to do in Pilani back then i.e., go for physics, chemistry, mathematics, biology and a sixth subject called physical education (English being compulsory).

Throughout school I was clueless as to what I should pursue. Yes, I wanted to become a traveler but back then I suffered from motion sickness and I gave up that career plan too! Many people say such things about themselves perhaps out of humility but I am being honest. That answers the first part of the question. Now coming to the second part of the question; I have an aunt who is the principal of a law college in Mumbai. I must add that I feel happy about the fact that I am from a family of teachers.

What motivated you to choose law as a career?

I do not think that there is a lot of resistance towards legal education here. Let me give you an example: when I joined Law College in 2004, my decision was looked down upon by many people from varying backgrounds.

In 2012, when my sister joined law college, the same people were appreciative of her as well as her decision. Either fortunately the times seem to be changing or unfortunately legal education suffers a reputation attack when urchins like me go for it! I joined Law College. (I won’t say ‘I chose law as a career’ after finishing the twelfth standard because I failed in mathematics. Thankfully, I had a subject called physical education which was accounted in place of mathematics).

Within less than a week of joining V.M. Salgaocar College of Law, it struck me that I have been mighty lucky despite the debacle in the twelfth standard. All my schoolmates who had suffered the same fate as that of mine in the twelfth standard were unhappily stuck in school struggling with subjects like mathematics.

I made up my mind to be fair to my luck and try to not let it down. There was no motivation to choose law as a career. Even now I try to pay gratitude to that one stroke of luck and in that process many strokes of luck happened to me in the form of very good mentors, moot courts, internships, jobs, briefs and a lot more.

What are your thoughts on activities like mooting and article writing for journals?

Your question demonstrates an unfortunate trend i.e., mooting and writing articles are flourishing on the cadavers of skill building exercises like client counselling, negotiation, MUN, et cetera. My thoughts are that such activities are massive contributors in shaping a law student. Such activities (when approached with the right frame of mind) develop an appetite for work in law students. Once an appetite for work is developed, a law student can learn any subject and master any skill.

One more thought that I would like share is that students who are into mooting are often seen as great orators. Oratory is just the icing on the cake and I believe that it comes naturally when a person is prepared (consciously or sub-consciously but nevertheless “really prepared” and not merely “notionally prepared”.)

I firmly believe that such exercises enable a law student to think and do things which are far beyond what even the most revolutionary of all curricula would normally permit him to think and do.

Let us take the example of mooting. The soul of a moot court problem is the ‘fact-sheet’. When this exercise is done repeatedly over a period of time; then it prepares a law student to meticulously work on files which are far more voluminous. A law student should approach moot courts keeping in mind that it is a rigorous exercise. Such an approach would give him a world of opportunities in terms of learning. It should not be seen as some talk show where he can speak.

Tell us about your internships.

I received immense institutional support for internships. Back then, going outside Goa for an internship was not a very common thing and interning in Delhi was seen as something as strange as touring Jaisalmer in June or touring Spiti in December!

Slowly more students from my college (especially students without lawyers in their families) started coming to Delhi for internships. The college encouraged students to go beyond Goa and Mumbai for internships. I did some of my internships when the classes were proceeding in full swing. My college excused attendance lapses on my part by prescribing a host of assignments that I had to do with the semester exams and at times the practical papers and semester exams round the corner! Nevertheless, it helped me to hone my multitasking skills! (I tried to write with both my hands, but my mind gave up as much as my left hand showed signs of coping up!)

After completing my first year as well as my second year, I interned with Advocate Shalini Sheoran at Jaipur. During both the internships I got to work on several civil and criminal matters on the original side in addition to perusing documents and preparing legal notices. During the internship it struck me that moot courts have enabled me to read documents (correspondences, legal notices, pleadings, affidavits, cross-examination of witnesses et cetera) in a particular fashion.

I realized that I stumble upon some new detail each time I read a document and I took it upon myself to reduce the number of times that I would have to read a document in order to not come across any new details. That exercise continues to this day. The documents have become more voluminous and their content has become more complex but nevertheless I enjoy reading them.

After completing my third year, I interned with HRLN in Delhi where I got to work on several bail matters for juveniles in conflict with law as well as on some service matters. During this internship I realized that litigation is physically demanding too because it requires a person to keep himself sharp between his ears even when he is physically drained out.

One of the ways to cope up with such situations is to love what you do and to be at peace with yourself. It continues to shape up my career and hence it was a remarkable internship experience.

While I was in my fourth year, I interned with O.P. Khaitan & Co. During the course of the said internship I got to do a fair amount of commercial law related work. I was always given to understand that working with a law firm and litigating are two different things because “law firms do not do litigation.”

During the course of this internship I realized that law firms definitely do litigation insofar as drafting pleadings and briefing counsels who are engaged to argue. I also realized that what law firms generally do not do is arguing cases at the stage of grant/resistance to grant/vacation/resistance to vacation of interim relief/s, final hearing and on such other occasions when it is likely that a significant order would be passed by the Bench.

I also realized that law firms generally do not argue cases at stages illustrated above because of many factors like the stakes involved in the dispute, the client’s choice that the Bench should be assisted by a Senior Advocate and the like. I realized that law firms might not be arguing cases but they inevitably play a stellar role in analyzing facts and law and in strategizing the cases keeping in mind the best interests of the client.

This internship enabled me to realize that I can very well litigate being a part of a law firm.

After my fourth year I worked with the legal department of Christian Medical College, Vellore which is a multispecialty hospital. This internship enabled me to observe as to how the legal department of a large organization functions.

During my previous internship I had seen officials from legal departments of client entities coming to consult lawyers at the firm. During this internship, I was a part of the legal department of a client entity which would go and consult lawyers. The previous internship and this internship enabled me to closely observe numerous perspectives and approaches.

During my fifth year, I interned with Mr. K.K. Venugopal, Senior Advocate. During the course of this internship, I witnessed his approach to fine aspects of law. I also witnessed briefing counsels from the best of firms briefing him. This internship gave me numerous opportunities to attend proceedings in Hon’ble Supreme Court and to observe Senior Advocates advance submissions on various aspects of law. I developed the skill to take notes on submissions being made and that skill comes handy to this day.

My last internship was with Karanjawala & Co. This internship also convinced me that law firms do litigate and it is utterly wrong to say that “law firms do not do litigation”. During the course of this internship I worked on some commercial law matters.

How well do you think your education at law college prepared you for real world practice of law?

Immensely in terms of temperament and skills. In order to answer the second part, I would have to go through the curricula of each law college! But yes, a general observation that I would like to make is that interpretation of statutes needs to be taught before any statute is taught.

Do you think being from a non-NLU impeded your career in any way?

NLU students are considered to be better than the rest by some. As a former MLU student (Mofussil Law University student) I would like to add the word “only” after the word “some”.

Some NLU students too have told me something very interesting i.e., NLU students “being considered better than the rest” is like a presumption that is in favour of constitutionality of a statute. Once, the presumption is rebutted; an NLU student is open to be struck down just like any MLU student.

Being from a non-NLU did not impede my career in any way. I personally do not like fully residential institutions packed into a campus. I would have felt so suffocated that I would have never felt like making use of any of the best of facilities and infrastructure offered by NLUs.

How important are grades for securing a job?

I have been told by some law students that only if they have a particular CGPA, they can sit for interviews. If it is true, then maintaining a very high CGPA is very important to secure a job (if securing a job which requires a very high CGPA is a top priority).

One can question everything and die a martyr’s death. But it is better to accept some things which won’t really harm you (maintaining a very high CGPA does not harm you, it would require you to study more but that does not harm you either) and in return you might end up fulfilling your top priority!

What factors contributed to your decision to take up litigation as a career choice?

When I joined Law College, I made up my mind to do an LL.M. after graduating and thereafter to become a teacher. Towards the end of the first semester; I realized that most litigating lawyers teach much better than some teachers.

I asked myself as to whether “I want to become a teacher or do I want to teach?” Bang came into my head like a bullet the difference between “becoming” and “doing”. It is better to aspire to “do something” than to aspire to “become something”. For what is it worth if someone becomes something without doing? By doing, he may or may not become, but then after all he is doing!

The initial motivation to take up litigation as a career choice was to be in a position to teach. Once I took up litigation as a career choice, I lost sight of the motivation to take it up i.e., to teach. However, after getting into private practice in 2012; I started teaching at Indian Institute of Foreign Trade.

You began your career in litigation with TDSAT. What was the rationale behind this choice?

I began my career in litigation with Hon’ble TDSAT. I began with original side civil litigation. As long as original side civil litigation is the starting point of a career in law (not just in litigation); I believe that it is good.

By the time I entered the final year; it was very clear in my mind that I want to begin my professional practice with original side civil litigation. At Singh & Singh I got the opportunity to work on at least 5 original side cases daily. Normally there would be at least two matters in which issues would be framed, at least one matter at the stage of evidence, at least one fresh matter in which usually interim relief/s would have to be pressed for/resisted and at least one matter which would be for final hearing. Besides that there would be numerous pleadings to be drafted before and/or after court.

I do not know the rationale behind the choice to start litigation with TDSAT but it worked very well for me. My basic aspiration to start with original side civil litigation was fulfilled beyond my expectations.

Do you feel that young lawyers should begin their career with regulatory litigation rather than starting at a district court or the High Court?

Usually district courts and High Courts (if they have original jurisdiction) are suggested in order to ensure that young lawyers begin their career with original side litigation. Regulatory litigation in some tribunals does offer good exposure to original side civil litigation.

As long as a fresher focuses on original side civil litigation and gets to work for more than 12 hours a day; day after day and week after week (weekends included) – any professional decision that he would make after a year or a year and a half would be in his best interest.

What do you have to say about the general perception that work at law firms is the first choice of most law students and litigation is not high on their list of career choices?

Any and every law graduate is more than 18 years of age. Law permits him to vote and to decide the nation’s destiny! Of course they are old enough to have perceptions based on various factors. What can I say about perceptions of others which are a product of their likes, dislikes, awareness, ignorance, competencies and compulsions.

What were the biggest challenges and opportunities you encountered during your time at Singh & Singh?

I am fortunate to have commenced professional litigation at Singh & Singh under the guidance of Prathiba Ma’am. Within hours of my enrolment (back then there was no bar exam), I started entering appearances before the Hon’ble TDSAT.

I had ample client contact opportunities, numerous opportunities to draft original side pleadings, conduct cross-examinations and advance arguments. I got to represent a broadcaster, a multi system operator, a DTH operator and a telecom service provider.

I also worked on some appeals in the Hon’ble TDSAT. The challenges, opportunities and most importantly the guidance has tremendously helped me to strive hard and to do my best.

How was your experience at Fox Mandal?

(Arjun spearheaded Fox Mandal’s broadcasting litigation practice for a year or so.)

I had a phenomenal experience at Fox Mandal. I joined Fox Mandal when I was a year and a half old into the profession. At that stage in my career, I had the opportunity to handle every aspect of broadcasting disputes on behalf of a leading content aggregator before the Hon’ble TDSAT. I had the good fortune of resisting interim reliefs being sought for against the said content aggregator on a daily basis as well as advancing arguments at the stage of final hearing in several matters. Additionally, I had numerous opportunities to brief counsels for the purpose of cross-examination of witnesses. Such exercises enabled me to observe and learn the skill of cross-examination. My stint at Fox Mandal enabled me to carve a niche for myself as a regular practitioner before Hon’ble TDSAT.

Coming to the second part of your question, liberty is something that is earned after finishing your work on a given day. Liberty is not something that is to be taken. Finishing your work on a given day can either be in an independent practice or in an institutional practice. The difference would be to the extent that in an institutional practice if you do not finish your work on a given day, then you disappoint your colleagues/seniors and then your clients whereas in an independent practice you straight away disappoint your client.

How does it feel to have a landmark judgment to your credit?

(Recently the Hon’ble TDSAT had passed a landmark judgment granting TV signals to a DAS licensee for the first time, and Arjun was the counsel for the DAS licensee.)

The judgment was passed in a batch of 6 petitions filed by the DAS licensee against 6 different broadcasters. All the petitions involved very interesting questions of law as regards interpretation of an MIB Notification and the DAS license. These cases were a lot more complex than some other cases that I had worked on as a private practitioner and therefore they were extremely interesting.

During my private practice, I was advising the DAS licensee. My association with the DAS licensee goes back to November 2012 when it had to address correspondences to broadcasters as well as respond to their correspondences. When I started with the correspondences, I had to obviously interpret DAS Regulations. However, other than the Regulations, the Explanatory Memorandum, allied statutes and Notifications, there were neither any commentaries nor any judgments on DAS Regulations that I could consult. The process of reading all the aforesaid instruments in a way that nothing becomes otiose, nothing begets absurdity and at the same time the interests of the DAS licensee are safeguarded in the best possible manner was an extremely challenging exercise.

The petitions were filed in February 2013. The matters were finally argued in February 2014 after cross-examination of 4 witnesses from 4 broadcasters and the judgments were pronounced in April 2014. For final arguments I had briefed Advocate Mr. Jayant Mehta. His insights as to the manner in which the cases were strategized and the trials were conducted were a major source of encouragement for me.

It can change your clientele and your identification with such a clientele very drastically. Often it stereotypes a lawyer with that one category of cases due to a large number of clients of that one category.
After the petitions were filed for this DAS licensee in February 2013; there were a large number of DAS licensees who started consulting me as regards addressing correspondences and as regards handling day to day legal and regulatory issues.

You have recently joined the Communication Law & Regulatory Practice at JSA after years of independent practice. How does this change the nature of your work or a typical work day?

My response to the first part of the question is that a drastic change in the nature of my work happened immediately upon joining JSA. Basically, at JSA I am working on issues which are far more complex than the issues which I usually worked on as a private practitioner.

Firstly, from cable and broadcasting law (which was my prime area of focus as a private practitioner), I have moved on to telecommunication law – an area which interested me ever since I joined the profession in 2009.

Secondly, I am getting opportunities to work on administrative law – an area which interested me ever since I joined Law College in 2004.

Thirdly, my exposure to complex commercial litigation has increased by many times as compared to my exposure to the said area as a private practitioner.

A typical work day is still the same. I work as much as I used to work before.

As regards the second part of the question, I would like to say that just because a person executes a successful sprint; it does not mean that he cannot go back to prepare and participate in a cross-country race; especially when he gets an opportunity to be trained by the best of coaches.

Many law firm associates say that climbing the corporate ladder from inside a law firm is far more difficult than having your own practice and excelling. What would be your take on this?

In my limited experience, I have seen that some people excel wherever they are.

Firstly, such people will never say anything of that sort. Secondly, such people have three common traits.
- They stay true to their spirit,
- they continuously and consistently keep working very hard and
- they do not know that there is something called an “excuse”.
If either “climbing the corporate ladder inside a law firm” or “having one’s own practice and excelling” is a matter of priority for a person; then difficulties (real or perceived) or their degrees are trivial. The difficulty level of a road cannot be a deterrent for a man who really wants to travel on it.

What skills would you say is a sine qua non for an intern who wants to excel at work?

1. Common sense and
2. An appetite for work.
3. An understanding that 1 and 2 are ways and means to learn various skills.

Disclaimer: All views are personal and do not in any way reflect the opinions/beliefs/views of the organisation/s the interviewee is associated with.
May 28, 2014