This article is written by Saumya Saxena, a third year student at Symbiosis Law School, Noida who interviewed Mr. Satish Kumar, Global Head – Legal and Chief Data Protection Officer at Ramco Systems, Chennai. In this article, he has talked about his journey in the legal field, pro bono work and the probable impacts of the upcoming data protection laws. In this article, Satish Kumar has expressed his own views and opinions, and not on behalf of Ramco Systems. 

Brief Profile

Satish Kumar is the Global Head (Legal), Chief Data Protection Officer at Ramco Systems, Chennai. Ramco Systems has operations right from Europe, the Middle East, Australia, Singapore, Malaysia and India. He holds the rich experience of about 25 years working as the general counsel of various organisations and MNCs like Polaris Financial Technology and HCL Technologies. 

What led to your joining the legal profession? If not Law, What would have been your career interest?

You’ll be surprised to know that I wanted to be a finance professional that is why I started my career by joining Chemoil Corporation as a finance professional. My command in law and english has put me in a favourable position. The managers there felt that my understanding of legal nuances was good so they placed before me the option of getting into the legal field. I grabbed the opportunity with both my hands. 

I am saying this without any bad intention, I feel that being a finance professional is a thankless job, you work from morning to evening and still don’t get recognized. But fortunately the legal profession is a highly paid job as there are few lawyers in a company and each one of them contributes in a major way towards the closure of deals and get recognized. It is not like finance professionals don’t contribute, there are lots of finance professionals in an organisation but lawyers are very few (handpicked) so the management recognises legal professionals easily. This is the reason why I chose legal profession over finance profession, had I not been a lawyer I would have been a finance professional.

You have a rich experience of over 25 years in the corporate sector. Can you tell us about your journey in the field of law? 

I was fortunate enough to have the experience of working in many multinational companies, Fortune 10 companies and many Indian companies like HCL Technologies, etc. I had a good experience in Polaris, I received the ‘Konark Excellence Award’ and was regarded as ‘The Deal Maker’. I started writing in 2006 and up till now I have written around 500 articles in magazines, journals, etc. The best thing about working in the corporate sector with management professionals is the structuring of deals including mergers and acquisitions. I was fortunate enough to be a part of the deal closures. There is one thing I wish I could have done better that is balancing my family life and work life. I feel family life is as important as work life. All in all my journey in the corporate sector has been a healthy experience.

What are the biggest challenges that you have had to grapple with as the global head – Legal of RAMCO

The most challenging aspect is meeting the expectation level. There are times when I work post office hours and sometimes I work on weekends so that I can respond to the sales team as quickly as possible. Ramco has been a great platform for me to showcase my skill set. I am known very well in the market Ramco has given me the brand name. Today, I am known as the GC of Ramco. I have received a lot of awards as a GC like General Counsel of the Year by the Indian National Bar Association and I have been featured in the GC Power List – Legal 500 in the UK. I did enjoy all the challenges as it has helped me to project myself in front of the world and become one of the best lawyers in the industry.

How is technology impacting the work of in-house legal teams? What are the software and databases that you regularly rely on for your legal work?

Nowadays, artificial intelligence is catching on. I believe that artificial intelligence is here to take right from contract negotiations to the signing of contracts. Earlier, one had to be physically present to sign on the document and had to send the hard copy. Now docusigns are there, one can sign documents online and can be sent easily across the globe. Let’s take the example of reviewing documents I find it very tiresome and cumbersome although I have one of the best legal teams. Sometimes going through documents lead to document fatigue but artificial intelligence in the system makes work easier and quicker as it reviews documents in a fraction of second without missing out on any minute errors. The exposure of artificial intelligence has been a good experience. Talking about the databases, we have subscribed to many online legal databases. We also use external databases for the purpose of gaining information related to any specific country. Internally, we have a well-structured database at Ramco where we save all the documents and the details of the people coming in or going out of the organisation. It is easy to retrieve a document from our depository.

What is your vision for your career going forward? 

I don’t feel there is any restriction in my career growth, currently I am the legal head of Ramco. The vision is to become the part of the Board of Directors.

If there was a turning point in your career, what would that be? 

The moment I was given the opportunity of getting into the legal field which I grabbed with both my hands. It brought my career into fastrack mode. Also when I was working in Polaris I closed a 250 million dollar contract which took me to sky heights.

What qualities do you look for in a junior while hiring? 

Knowledge, experience and the attitude of the junior are the important aspects that I consider. The right attitude is the most critical thing for me when I select my team members. Irrespective of the number of years they have put in, I give importance to the right attitude as I feel that a person with the right attitude can always learn and progress.

Data Protection is a massive challenge. What role are legal teams playing in Data Protection within Corporations? 

At Ramco, we have bifurcation between the legal team and the data protection team. The data protection team consists of both lawyers and non-lawyers. Data protection laws and privacy laws are emerging in the legal field so it is going to be a big challenge for the corporate lawyers. Once the Personal Data Protection Bill 2019 is passed, I feel most of the Indian corporates apart from their data protection officers, they will also be required to give importance to privacy laws across the globe. The General Data Protection Regulation has given some thrust to the privacy laws but the importance still lacks in the corporate law. When the Personal  Data Protection Bill, 2019 will be passed, the lawyers will be in for opportunities in this segment. As the saying goes – the early bird catches the worm, the quicker you learn about the privacy laws across the globe, the more it will benefit the lawyers of the younger generation.

Recently, the CJI proposed the introduction of Artificial Intelligence in the justice delivery system. What are your views on that, Do you think it will prove to be beneficial for Judicial System’s efficiency?

Chief Justice S. A. Bobde expressed a beautiful thought process with respect to artificial intelligence in the judicial system. In the current scenario, artificial intelligence has been adopted by the corporate sector to some extent, we need to adopt it in the judicial system as well. As there are lots of cases before the judiciary, with the introduction of artificial intelligence it will become easier to predict the outcome of disputes whether it is arbitration or a court proceeding. The disputing parties can decide accordingly and make a settlement. Apart from this, artificial intelligence also tracks the way in which judgement is given by a particular judge, so if a case goes to a particular judge we’ll know what kind of judgement will come. Going forward with artificial intelligence, we are going to do away with papers. It is a big welcome move to have artificial intelligence in the judiciary. I am sure we’ll be seeing more cases being resolved in a shorter time which will lead to a reduction in the number of pending cases. 

What is your take on pro bono activities? Could you tell the readers about the pro bono activities that you undertake to give back to society.

I strongly believe in pro bono activities, whatever I am today is because of the opportunities that have been given to me, it is my duty to return it to the society in some way or the other. If you look around you’ll see that even the most educated people are legally illiterate, of course the rich people can hire the best of the legal brains but most of the population in India is poor and don’t have legal help at their disposal. This is why Chennai Lawyers was found by me so that we lawyers can reach out to the poor people and the villagers and help them providing free legal counselling whether it be family disputes, property disputes, we make them aware of their rights. In many instances, we take it through the cooperative lawyers in the court. At the end of the counselling sessions, when we see the smiling faces of these people it gives me an immense amount of satisfaction, these smiling faces are more valuable than money. I feel that all lawyers should take up pro bono activities as nowadays everything has become commercial and there are few lawyers who work for the society. I welcome lawyers in Chennai to come forward and join us in our efforts in the pro bono activities. Another way to give back to society is knowledge sharing in the form of articles, research papers to the young lawyers. I try to do that as well, I make sure that I write two articles in a week.

How can litigators and new law firms approach in-house counsels to get business? 

Litigators and new law firms need to prove themselves first that they have knowledge and skills. Nowadays, there are many law firms across the globe but only a few are knowledgeable. Firstly, they should be knowledgeable and should be able to prove that they have the ability to take it forward. Secondly, law firms should understand and adopt the requirements/work culture of the organisation. For example, some organisations are cost conscious so you cannot go with a hike budget, whereas some organisations won’t mind paying some extra bucks but the quality of work should not be affected so they want only senior lawyers to work. At Ramco, law firms can approach me directly through an email. If I am happy with their skill set and availability, I’ll be happy to work with them after all they are as good as us and we are as good as them. Litigators and law firms are our colleagues, I call them external partners. 

What are the major shifts and changes you see in the legal profession from the time you started your career?

There are a lot of changes from the time I started my career which is 25 years back. Earlier, the legal profession was not considered as important as it is now, earlier there used to be very less documentation as most of the deals were done orally. I have been working since the days when there was no email so right from letters we used to enter into deals. The level of knowledge of lawyers was not as good as it is now, with time the knowledge of lawyers and competition both has increased and also the maturity of the documentation has increased. Earlier, the negotiations were easier but now it has become very complex for example multi-million contracts used to be closed in a week or so but now it takes months and face to face sitting with clients across the globe.  The closure time for deals has increased because of the complex negotiations and an increase in the number of approval required. Litigation has also increased, now people are seen approaching the court unlike the old scenario. 

What is your message to the young budding lawyers? 

My advice to young lawyers would be that they should never shy away from learning the law, they should understand the requirement of the law whether it be corporate or litigation. I feel that they should get down and not feel shy about dirtying their hands. I will prefer that they experience the corporate sector first and then after a few years of experience they can go back to practice. It is important to have experience in both the fields. I would like to emphasize on the knowledge aspect, one should try to learn as much as possible as there is no short cut for success. If one wants to succeed in their profession, they need to keep learning everyday. Young lawyers should make it a practice that they learn something everyday. Nobody is a perfectionist, it doesn’t matter if you are a fresh law graduate or an experienced lawyer, you keep learning. You should rub shoulders with the senior lawyers in the industry. You should not be an introvert, you should express what you feel. Young lawyers should attend conferences, seminars, interact with senior lawyers and try to be in touch with them so that they keep learning from them. Young lawyers should make it a point, the mantra for them is to learn, learn and learn.

Srividhya Ragavan is a Professor of Law at Texas A&M University School of Law. Her research emphasizes issues relating to international trade and intellectual property rights. She writes on a variety of related issues including traditional knowledge, pharmaceutical patenting and agricultural subsidies. Her work, both research as well as service, particularly focusses on India. Her monograph Patents and Trade Disparities in Developing Countries was published by Oxford University Press. She also co-edited a book with Irene Calboli on diversity in intellectual property was published by Cambridge University Press.

She serves as a consultant for the Department of Industrial Policy & Promotion, Government of India. She has served as a Fulbright Nehru Scholar and as a Fulbright Specialist in the South Asia region. She has an SJD from the George Washington University Law School, an LL.M. from King’s College, University of London and B.A. LL.B. (Honors) from the National Law School of India University, Bangalore.

In this interview she talked to us about:

• Difference in respect to the pedagogy of Indian Universities and Foreign Universities
• Why Texas A&M University is an attractive destination for international law students
• Scholarship Opportunity at Texas A&M University School of Law

Tell us a story from your college days. What made NLS Bangalore special back in the day?

Raised in a protected environment in a small town in southern India, being thrown into a multi-cultural progressive environment of NLS was a culture shock. It took over a year or even more to find my place, my confidence and my voice.  Many of my batch-mates still laugh at how homesick I was when I first moved into the dorms. I give credit to the then professors at NLS who helped us accumulate the skills to transform each one us into who we are now. The residential nature of the environment at NLS helped us to gain legal education while also acquiring life-skills such as appreciating diversity, cultivating mutual-respect, confidence and independence. Traversing the learning curve at NLS helped me ease into US academia despite being fresh-off-the-boat in Oklahoma. 

What drew you to academia rather than practice as an attorney? Why not become a corporate lawyer which seems to be the most popular choice for NLS grads?

I have worked for top corporate houses in India as well as with reputed law firms. I enjoyed my work in corporations and at law firms. To me, that presented a different set of exciting challenges by involving questions of importance to particular clients. The distinguishing feature of academia is the ability to delve exhaustively in an area of research of one’s choice and passion.  I have been passionate about the legal barriers preventing access to and affordability of medications. 

You were also a visiting faculty of NALSAR and other Indian colleges. Can you please tell us the difference in respect to the pedagogy of Indian Universities and Foreign Universities.

Typically, the Socratic style is touted as the biggest distinguishing feature of American teaching style. While I am not appraised of recent teaching trends in India, professors in NLSIU those days employed Socratic style of teaching. Overall, I find that Indian professors are as invested as their foreign counterparts in their students. I believe that the big difference abroad is in the organizational requirements for a class which results in a professor organizing the entire semester ahead of time to set the expectations for students. Universities abroad also have exhaustive governance rules and enforcement procedures such as for student involvement in university governance issues, etc., which sets clear boundaries and delineates the limits for each of the constituents of the University.

How is teaching in a US university different from teaching in Indian law schools?

A good teacher is good anywhere in the globe. In India, teaching forms a much larger component of academic career here, sometimes to the detriment of research, which is a considerable component to determine academic success in the US. Students in law schools in both India and the US are typically interested and informed constituents. American law students tend to be a tad more independent while, Indian students, have more exposure to international issues and also tend to raise questions with an element of social consciousness. Personally, I have learnt from all of my students, irrespective of whether they are Indian, American or anywhere else. 

How can Indian universities compete at the highest level in the world? What would have to change?

I think it would serve to emphasize more research and scholarship in India although I am not advocating the US model. I believe that well-researched academics with knowledge of local realities are best posited to provide practically implementable suggestions. Personally, I feel that India can do more to use academic expertise to evolve impartial research to inform important discussions. Academic voices should be supplemented and not be supplanted by bureaucrats and judges.

What are the 3 biggest challenges that you have faced in your career? How did you overcome them?

My three biggest challenges to career are from being a woman, a foreigner and creating a balance between work and life. I don’t think I have overcome any of these challenges yet. Wherever I am in the globe, the biases from the first two realities (including in India where I am an NRI now) and the challenges of creating a balance between work and life remain. The only way to address these challenges is to constantly strive to do better and address these challenges head-on. It is also a constant challenge between being humble while being confident. 

Any tips for budding legal writers?

Indians are natural story tellers. It is high time we told the story about the legal issue we face and present solutions. There is an old saying which states that the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunters until the lions have their story tellers. Thus, until Indians present India’s positions on legal issues coherently in global forums, the narrative will always glorify an imposed system.

How can law students develop good writing skills?

By writing regularly; by learning to form “informed opinions” (as opposed to being opinionated); by supporting opinions with facts; by being cognizant of one’s inherent biases and ensuring that they don’t cloud one’s assessment of facts and by using critical opinions as a means to improve content and writing skills. 

What would be your advice to young Indian lawyers who would love to have a global academic career in teaching at international universities?

I think finding a good mentor early on is critical to appreciate what the market values and how best to project one’s skill in a subject area. Writing skills, critical thinking, clarity of articulations are also important traits. 

What is special about Texas A&M University? Why is it an attractive destination for international law students?

The University is one of the oldest Universities in the US. The laws school boasts of an international faculty from India, Hong Kong, Europe, Mexico and more. We have faculty expertise in several areas such as intellectual property, health care, cybersecurity & privacy, energy and environment and arbitration. The law school is located in the Dallas Fort-Worth metroplex which is one of the fastest growing metropolitan area in the country with a large Indian population.  Texas also houses many Indian companies including Cognizant, Wipro, Mahindra, Infosys, and others. The state of Texas has the highest investment from Indians in the United States which makes it an attractive destination for Indians. 

How can one get scholarships at your university to study law?

Getting a scholarship is a by-product helping the law-school appreciate one’s value as a student to the school. We consider all students for scholarships. Law schools measure the value of a student by predicting the probability of your success in the future. The prediction is made based on your background, class room performance, other achievements, your drive to continue in a chosen path and your ability to stay focused in that path. Students should translate all of these things into a coherent format with a view to gain the attention of the law school. I can assure you that Texas A&M has always looked for strong students who would thrive at the law school. 

Is it advisable for Indians wanting to practice in Texas to do an LLM? Or is JD a better option?

Both degrees provide offer opportunities that a student can capitalize on depending on individual circumstances. Bottom line is, if a student’s singular goal is to work permanently in the US – versus doing the year of OPT after graduation –the JD would open more doors. I think LL.M helps acquire advanced education in one or more specialized areas. A generalized LL.M helps to gain special knowledge in more than one area. Both degrees will allow the student to sit for the bar exam, although the JD is the more common degree among US lawyers.  With either of the degrees, students need to carefully pick appropriate courses keeping in mind their professional interests, available internship or employment opportunities to get to their goals.

How can Indian law students looking to do an international LLM chose where they want to do it from?

Many factors can influence a student’s decision and choice of course. These factors include the overall ranking of the law school, the specialty ranking of the law school, the location of the school, the student’s objectives in taking the course and the financial viability of the program.   

Robert B. Ahdieh is a Dean of Texas A&M University School of Law. He served as law clerk to Judge James R. Browning of the US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit before his selection for Honor’s Program in the Civil Division of the US Department of Justice.  His work has also appeared in the Boston University Law Review, Michigan Law Review, Minnesota Law Review, NYU Law Review, and Southern California Law Review, among other journals.

He has also served as a visiting professor at Columbia and Georgetown law schools, as well as at Princeton University. He has also visited at the Institute for Advanced Study, at the University of British Columbia, the University of Warsaw, and Singapore Management University, among other overseas institutions.

In this interview he talked to us about:

• About the Law School At Texas A&M University and what makes it stand out
• Opportunities for Foreign Lawyers to practice in the State
• He also talks about Cross Border and Global Practice for Indian Lawyers

What led to your decision to study law?

I had always planned to study math.  I loved the structured logic and systematic reasoning involved in solving math problems.  But when I got to university, I realized that the relatively more isolated workstyle of a mathematician wasn’t so appealing to me.  And so, pretty quickly, I flipped over to a focus on law. Although I don’t think I realized it at the time, I’ve come to recognize that shift as a fairly rational one.  Law is grounded in the same kind of structured logic and systematic reasoning as math.  Different rules, of course. But same analytical structure. And so I think it all worked out.

What drew you to teach law rather than practice it as an attorney?

I actually practiced for several years before starting my teaching career.  And I loved every minute of it. While some leave law practice for academia because they don’t like practicing, not me.  I loved analyzing the facts and law of a case, putting my oral and written arguments together, and being in the courtroom.  Given the opportunity in both college and law school to teach, and my experience writing an academic book starting in college and continuing into law school, though, I also knew that I would love being a professor.  And ultimately, I decided I could have more of a positive impact on the world by teaching the next generation of lawyers and leaders, and by publishing lasting scholarly work, than through the work I would do as a litigator.

What would you define as 3 biggest successes in your career so far?

I hope the three biggest successes of my life will be my three children.  So far so good, on that front. But in terms of “career” successes, I suppose I might start with the publication of my book on the constitutional transition from the Soviet Union to Russia while I was still in law school.  It was a huge undertaking, but one that I am hopeful will remain a valuable contribution to our understanding of that tumultuous time. Since entering academia, I think I have been a good teacher to a broad range of students – facilitating their success as members of the bar, and as humans.  And I also think my published work as a professor has contributed to two important strands of scholarly thinking – one that has changed the way we think about how governments interact across jurisdictional lines, and one that has helped to shift our ideas about when regulatory interventions might be needed, and what form it might take.  Finally, as dean of Texas A&M Law School, I hope I am contributing to building the next top law school in the United States.

You have observed many law students become lawyers over the years. What according to you are the early signs that helps you to tell which of your students are going to do exceptionally well?

More than anything, I would cite a good work ethic.  Law rewards diligence and perseverance. The more a law student gives of their time and energy, the more they will get.  I think organization would be the next thing. So much of success in law school is a function of keeping up and keeping things together.  Finally, I would note the ability to receive and utilize feedback. Law is a learning process – even when you’re in practice – and so the ability to listen and learn is invaluable.

What is special about the law school at Texas A&M University? What would you say makes it stand out?

To begin, I would cite the forward momentum that has defined Texas A&M Law School in recent years.  We have risen more in the U.S. News rankings than any other law school in the United States over the last several years.  The quality of our incoming students has increased more than that of any other law school during that time.  And the increase in our reputation among judges and lawyers is likewise number one in the United States. We expect the coming years to bring more of the same.  Beyond our momentum, I would also note Texas A&M Law School’s existing and emerging areas of distinctive strength: our top 10 ranking in Intellectual Property and top 15 ranking in Arbitration, Mediation, and Negotiation; our very strong program in Energy and Environmental Law; and our emerging programs in Health Law & Policy and in Cybersecurity and Privacy, among others.  Finally, I would note our location.  Texas is the fastest growing state in the United States.  And would be the 10th largest economy in the world, if it were its own country.  New businesses – from Toyota to Infosys, Wipro, and Mahindra – move their headquarters here every year.  Every major law firm is opening an office here in Texas. As to India, meanwhile, 20% of U.S. Foreign Direct Investment into India comes from Texas.  10% of U.S. bilateral trade between India and the U.S. involves Texas. All of that creates great opportunity for growth, for learning, and for professional development for law students.

The State of Texas has allowed foreign lawyers to practice in the state. What is the process to be eligible to practice in Texas for a foreign lawyer?

A graduate of an LLM program in the United States is actually eligible to sit for the bar exam in a number of jurisdictions, including Texas.  Thus, a student who attends Texas A&M Law School is potentially eligible not only for the Texas bar, but for others as well. As to Texas, any student interested in sitting for the bar exam should review the requirements of the State Bar of Texas.  In terms of the LLM course of study, for example, students are required to take certain courses during their LLM studies – including professional responsibility, legal writing, and others – to sit for the bar exam.

Who should do an international LLM and why?

My view of the value of an international LLM degree starts with how globalized the practice of law is becoming.  Thus, in addition to one’s home country law degree, an international LLM serves the function of enhancing one’s credibility both in the country in which the LLM is earned, and in the world generally.  It also gives one a meaningful foundation in the law of the jurisdiction in which one earns one’s LLM – and if that is an important jurisdiction in terms of trade, commerce, immigration, etc., that can be very useful.  Finally, an international LLM is a ready vehicle to create a network of lawyer colleagues from around the world, which can serve one in incredibly good stead over the course of one’s career. So, who should do it? I would say anyone with interests related to business, trade, energy, international arbitration, intellectual property, tax, cybersecurity, and the like should careful consider whether there is an affordable opportunity to earn an international LLM.  Likewise, those who look to work in any area of law with cross-border dimensions. And finally, those who have an interest in better understanding the world generally, and particularly the global nature of legal practice today.

What does an applicant requires to demonstrate in order to get into a prestigious institution like Texas A&M University School of Law? Any particular trait you are looking for in applicants?

We are looking for students who will come to Texas A&M, add to and benefit from the community, and utilize what they learn here to positively impact the world.  What demonstrates the likelihood of a student fitting that bill? Obviously, we consider the past course of study of a student, and how they have done in their classes.  We look at language skill, to ensure that a student who comes to us will succeed. We are also always interested in work experience, given the skills that usually come with such experience.  Finally, we are excited to add interesting students to our community – however, that might be manifested, from interest in a given sport to artistic talent, or otherwise.

What are the 3 biggest challenges that you have faced in your career? How did you overcome them?

That’s a great question.  I actually consider myself fairly blessed, and so I’m not sure I have really faced “big” challenges to speak of.  I suppose one might be the fact that I wasn’t born into a family of lawyers, or a family with significant resources.  My parents were relatively newly arrived immigrants from Iran, who were in the middle of their graduate studies, and who were consequently not in a position to connect my sister and me with the networks that too often shape the professional path – and success – of young people in the world today.  They did, however, instill in me a strong expectation of excellence. And a drive to do what was necessary to achieve it. So I consider that to have been a good trade-off, in the grand scheme of things! I suppose I might also note occasional experiences I’ve had over the years, with colleagues who have taken a very personal approach to disagreements that others might handle in a more professional fashion.  In sustaining a community, needless to say, that approach can be terribly destructive. I hope I have learned from those experiences the importance of not responding to such behavior in kind. Rather, I have tried to respond as I would regardless, in hopes that I might at least keep the cancer of such behavior from metastasizing. And perhaps even help to reduce its frequency and tenor. Finally – although I consider it more of an opportunity than a challenge – my career has taken me to various communities over time, from Princeton to Israel, from Moscow to Texas, and from San Francisco to Vienna (among other places), all of which required me to understand and engage cultures that were quite new to me.  That has not always been easy, but I have found it incredibly rewarding. Hence more opportunity than challenge!

In the era of burgeoning artificial intelligence and digital transformation, what skills do you think lawyers should look to develop?

I know it’s a bit crazy, but I think everyone these days should learn a bit of coding.  It’s too late for me, as I’m too old. But anyone still in school – or even not too far out of school – would likely benefit from at least some ability to do some basic coding.  I think lawyers should also take the time to understand the technologies around them. And develop the skills to utilize them most effectively. Those lawyers who understand and can manage/apply the technologies to good ends will be the ones who are most valued.  Finally, at the other end of the spectrum, I think the development of specialized knowledge and skills – for example, in intellectual property – will be important to establishing and securing one’s value as a legal professional, even in the face of rising technological solutions.

Any message for Indian lawyers who want to develop a cross border or global practice?

As I noted earlier, I think developing a network of international colleagues can be invaluable.  And likewise, the credibility of having meaningful exposure to a foreign jurisdiction. All of which can come from an international LLM, but might also be accomplished in other ways.  Finally, don’t neglect your LinkedIn profile, but also other means to make a name for yourself out in the world. Tweet thoughtful insights into topical legal questions. Write a blog on some interesting area of the law.  And the like. It takes time, but it can have tremendous payoffs.

Arjit Benjamin is law graduate from Amity Law School and has been extensively working in the field of Dispute Resolution (both litigation & ADR) and Intellectual Property Rights (including enforcement as well as prosecution), particularly in the area of trademarks. With experience in the fields of Dispute Resolution and Intellectual Property, Arjit enjoys attending court as much as networking in seminars and conferences held globally. He has been attending the Annual Global Meeting of the International Trademarks Association (INTA) across several countries; and has had the chance to interact with some of the most iconic IP minds across the globe. In this interview, he talks about managing interest in two practice areas, idea of networking, maintaining work-life balance and challenges of being a second-generation lawyer.

The primary area of your work relates to Civil, Commercial and Intellectual Property Litigation; and you have been appearing before the Hon’ble High Court of Delhi, Trial Courts, Tribunals and other judicial and quasi-judicial forums. What, according to you, are qualities to grow as a litigator?

Imagine going to a surgeon who has never performed surgery, or who is not equipped with changing technology to treat you with the best possible medical equipment! Lawyers, as service providers, are no different. Just as a basic degree in medical sciences is a given for doctors or surgeons, a strong knowledge of substantive and procedural laws is imperative when it comes to lawyers and it perhaps gives a level-playing field to all those who graduate out of law school. How one adds-on to it decides your further course of growth in your career. I’m actively tracking legislative updates and precedents to stay abreast of all legal developments, which is a must for every practicing lawyer. For litigation, it is extremely important that one develops skills pertaining to court craft and litigation strategy. I’ve consciously tried to be present in the court, observing the seniors and veterans in the way they approach a matter and conduct themselves during court proceedings. Attentive client interaction, being observant and contributing during conferences with Senior Counsels and making a slight effort to deeply understand the industry sector of your clients will help you come up with excellent litigation strategy, an art that you’ll always pick on the job and not during your law school days. 

Litigators are always considered to lead a tough lifestyle, often compromising on work-life balance. What are your thoughts on managing conflicting professional and personal commitments?

I wouldn’t say that as a litigator we always compromise our work-life balance. It is only the unpredictability of the practice that may sometime lead to pressure-like situations. There will be instances where owing to the nature of the matter and stakes involved, urgent filing needs to be catered to – sometimes overnight! But these situations are one-off and I, in fact, tend to enjoy these challenging moments owing to the challenges involved. All of us also must understand that the band we proudly wear comes with a lot of responsibility. It is important to understand the clients’ perspective, who approach us with faith and belief that we will step up in the need of the hour. Barring such instances, I believe if we learn the art of managing time effectively, work-life balance can be achieved to a large extent. I understand that on a long court day, one has to come to office and then commence substantive work like drafting. However, simple hacks and use of technology will come to your rescue, provided you get accustomed to imbibing them. I also utilize my travel time and spare time between matters to read-up and research. I keep my phone and tab handy, which helps me manage court dates, access of documents and case laws, etc. on the move. 

You were drawn towards intellectual property laws from the inception of your professional journey. What are the emerging trends you’ve observed during your growth and engagement with IP practice?

I believe technological developments, government’s efforts in accelerating IP procedures while reducing paper-work and number of forms and announcement of concessions in a fee charged by the government to register intellectual property by start-ups are some of the notable achievements in last few years. The IP Registry is committed to expedite procedures and we all have witnessed the transition of days from physical filing to e-filing, and now issuance of Trademark Registration Certificates online. 

IP is also one area where we observe evolving jurisprudence every day. This year itself we’ve seen some remarkable steps taken by courts. For instance, the Delhi High Court recently passed a progressive judgment, taking cognizance of matters not being heard for several years for want of Technical Member in IPAB. To put an end to the ordeal of parties whose rights were being prejudiced (especially in patent matters where the statutory period of exclusivity is only 20 years), the Court held that the Chairman, IPAB and the Technical Member (Plant Varieties Protection) are competent to hear the urgent matters relating to Patents, Trade Marks and Copyright till the vacancies of other Technical Members are filled up. Similarly, last week, the Bombay High Court issued a notice instructing all urgent IP matters seeking to obtain ex-parte orders will be heard confidentially “in chamber” to maintain confidentiality and prevent any possible leakage of information to the defaulting party. The court has also indicated that such cases will neither be mentioned in the court openly nor will such cases be displayed on the High Court website. With growing judicial activism in the field, I’m sure we’re poised to witness trends that will move towards a robust IP regime being developed in our country, aimed towards the furtherance of justice for those who knock the doors of court of law.

You’ve attended conferences and events domestically and internationally. Do you think in the fiercely competitive professional landscape for lawyers, networking is an important tool for survival?

I do not really go by the term ‘networking’ for its sheer commercial parlance. I view attending conferences as an opportunity to build relationships and the joy of knowledge sharing. When you network, you only look for professional bonds, which may be long-term or short-term. Building relationships is wider as you connect with like-minded personalities from across the globe on professional as well as non-professional grounds. I’ve attended international conferences where attendees bond over common interests like sports, music and literature, more than practice area or work-based topics. I’ve learnt simple management tips from some, while with some I’ve only discussed my interests in photography and music. So, it isn’t necessarily a tool for survival, but more like expanding your reach to interesting people from different cultures and civilizations, who may or may not be professionally beneficial for you, but the ties you create are very fulfilling in the long run. If you ask me, I would say networking or professional benefits are a by-product of building relationships – incidental, inevitable, secondary, but useful!

Do you think being a second-generation lawyer comes with advantages? Can you elaborate?

For the longest time, I’ve heard this belief that being a second-generation lawyer comes with huge advantages. Let me take this opportunity to share that barring the environment where you can discuss law and getting familiarized with the lifestyle of a lawyer, there aren’t too many advantages for a second-generation lawyer. Rather, there is always a benchmark against which your performance is evaluated, not necessarily by your family but by third parties. In my case, my father is already an acclaimed IP lawyer, with over three and a half decades of experience in the field of IP. To match up to such high standards could be overwhelming. My advice to all such lawyers would be to not take undue stress of matching-up to the standard of your parent(s)/family member, or any role model for that matter. Identify the areas of your interest if you choose to pursue law, and carve your own identity. For me, while IP was home-ground, I was drawn towards enforcement, litigation and dispute resolution, out of my interest. Determined to grow and learn through my own mistakes, I decided to venture into both contentious and non-contentious laws. Fortunately, for me, the support from my family has been very positive.

I would also like to point out here that the legal profession has come a long way where merit is paramount and there is no substitute for talent. Several of my friends are first-generation lawyers and they’re doing extremely well for themselves. Opportunities are alike for everyone and I can proudly say that our profession is extending those opportunities to those who deserve them on merit, not by virtue of being born in lawyers’ family. 

For several upcoming lawyers, what would be your advice about the importance of having a mentor? Who do you consider as your mentor?

As I said above, it is important to make mistake and learn from them. You will continue to grow through hit and trial. But all of us need a ‘go-to’ person, who becomes our guiding light and someone who we look up to. It is important to have a mentor because they will teach you what no book or law school can. And more often than not, you will learn through simply observing them conduct themselves with a client, in court or in real life situations. Identify who will be your sounding boards – whose reactions to your ideas will be a test of validity or success. 

I consider myself blessed to have not one but two mentors. First, one being my father and my ideal since childhood, Mr. Kenneth David Benjamin, who is a proficient lawyer; and second my Reporting Partner, Ms. Meghna Mishra, who had the patience of teaching me from scratch. Most important thing that I’ve perhaps learnt from both is to stay humble and accessible despite being widely recognized for your work. Both come with immense patience to never get hassled even when I’ve approached them with repetitive and sometimes borderline silly queries. Both have had a very positive influence in my life and I would consider myself worthy if I achieve an iota of what they’ve achieved – not just as practitioners of law, but also as great human beings. 

Tell us about your experience of working as a Central Govt. Standing Counsel. What are your responsibilities? How often do you appear before the Supreme Court?

To begin with I would like to thank SuperLawyer for this interview & acknowledging my experience as a young legal professional. My journey as a student at National University of Advanced Legal Studies at Kochi [2009-14] batch to practicing before the Supreme Court as Central Govt. Standing Counsel has been an enriching learning curve. I consider myself fortunate enough to have worked with all legal luminaries in the day-to-day matters being a Central Govt. Counsel & also due to my last office for private matters as well.

It certainly has played a crucial role in shaping my career as a young lawyer & getting recognition. Apart from that since my senior was also a Government pleader & had frequent filings before the Supreme Court so the exposure level was different altogether.

Talking about the responsibilities as Counsel for Govt. of India:- 

To represent the Union of India in the highest court of the land is an honor but the sense of responsibility is equally high because you are dealing with the Ministries & officials directly for the purpose of drafting & also at the time of briefing you are generally briefing an Additional Solicitor General, the Solicitor General or a Designated Senior so one has to deliver aptly and there is no room for negligence.

As counsels, we are expected to draft the matters marked to us by the department; Brief the concerned Ld. Additional Advocate General or the Solicitor General or the Designated Seniors marked along-with in the case file; Appear before the Court in all such matters marked whether it be Registrar Court, Chamber Judge or Main Court; Inform the law officer dealing with the concerned ministry after the matter is over & submit the court proceedings; Be in touch with the Government authorities or the Ministry for the concerned documents or orders required for the purposes of the court hearing. 

The Appearance is generally regular & varies from two matters per day to anywhere between twice a week as per the list made by the Department. It includes matters before the Registrar Court, Main Court & Chamber Judge.

How did you get selected for such a coveted role at an early age?

I worked for 3 yrs at a Chamber wherein we dealt with matters from all Lower courts, High Court & Tribunals. We were empanelled by various PSU’s, Govt. Departments & had mostly regular filings before the Supreme Court & therefore I had the exposure of work at all foras as well as the Hon’ble Supreme Court.  I am really grateful to my senior without whom I might not have got the exposure of having worked with all legal luminaries in this span of my practice as a young lawyer & the platform to outshine my abilities. He always appreciated my hard-work, research & dedication for the profession. At one such instance when we were working on a Batch matter for  PGCIL [A Maharatna Company] while briefing, the draft was appreciated by the Ld. Additional Solicitor General & thereafter recommendation as per procedure was made from his office for the official appointment to the Ministry of Law & Justice. It actually came as a surprise for all the hard work the office staff, my colleague & I had put-in while preparing a batch of 50 Appeals. 

Why did you choose litigation over fancy corporate legal profile? When did you start your independent practice & What are the practical hardships faced by an independent litigator?

I was placed in IndiaLaw LLP, Mumbai office through campus recruitment in the final year of my BA.LLB.(Hons) program. Since I did not want to take up that location the concerned partner referred me to a law firm based in South Delhi which had plethora of matters from all foras & especially appellate matters before the Hon’ble Supreme Court.  My Senior was a Govt. pleader & an Advocate-on-record. The office had criminal practice along-with appellate matters before the Supreme Court, PSU matters & drafting work for various Govt. Depts. I, therefore, had the exposure of District courts, High Court as well as the Supreme Court on a daily basis. I always had an inclination towards litigation practice since college days & therefore I always participated in the college moots & other National moots. If you are good in researching, writing & arguing- then litigation is the thing for you. But certainly, it’s not flashy enough, to begin with like the corporate packages offered to students coming out of law colleges.

To ascertain the area of interest & the right office as a fresher is the key. In my opinion, starting with a mid-sized firm would give you more exposure & direct participation by being part of huge matters, confidence to showcase your skills, inculcate the ability to think on your own feet & try new things. Not only does it gives you a platform to learn more than your colleagues who are initially not being sent to courtrooms or involved in core team as juniors but also the growth, in this case, is more.

 To start independent work or practice is a big decision to make in initial stages of your career & it becomes more difficult when you spend good 3-5 yrs in the law firm culture so the trick is not to make yourself too comfortable with the monthly income & perks of the job but to detach at the right time to grow & invest in yourself. The addiction to the income makes it difficult initially but if you try to focus on updating your knowledge bank & preparing yourself for the leap it all falls into place.

The mindset among the students is to be placed in the topmost firms and not to invest in their own self. Litigation practice & daily court proceedings teach you a lot more than you can learn by sitting in any office because you are practically facing either the repercussions or the bearing the fruits of the draft prepared & the court craft or arguments presented in court by the advocate. If you are a good researcher & prepared your draft well 70 % of your case is already done because then you know the entire case on your tips & chances are the matter would be easily admitted. Also knowing your case well helps you to argue it with confidence.

Since independent litigation practice is not a wise decision for everyone to make in an initial stage considering the amount of pressure it builds in, the earning it gives in the initial years & exploitation which some people go through at their offices or chambers.  Many law students, therefore, opt for corporate legal jobs. But sooner or later one has to go through that phase. Fortunately for me, my senior had been really supportive, appreciative of my work as a junior and paid well as a litigation associate as to any other fresher advocates generally gets in court. Even after I have left the office I am still a part of that family & associated with his office for independent work. I am really grateful to him for shaping my career & providing the platform to build as a lawyer.

I became independent after 3yrs & I feel it is a good time to start building yourself. Being your own boss and running the show is an actual deal. Until that umbrella is taken away we never realize how to grow. For me, I had initially taken a break from work after my dad passed away & then I focused more on studying the law subjects & updating myself as a lawyer along with my practice. Being a Central Govt. Counsel worked out in my favor in-comparison with other lawyers who are solely dependent on private matters. So I could practice & also focus on learning which is not possible with a full-time law firm or a chamber work. It helped me gain mental clarity to think & focus on myself. I enrolled for various online diploma courses & right now I am pursuing my masters in Commercial laws from National Law University Delhi. The Journey so far has been wonderful from being a junior associate to an independent practitioner & representing the Central Govt. There is a whole sense of responsibility & learning which comes through when you run your own office which I learnt from my peers and the amount of hard-work I saw them put-in while working on briefs & maintaining the office in the initial stages of their career. Patience & Persistence are the two takeaways in this profession and especially for the young lawyers because being a young lawyer you have to be patient enough to get work people might not straight away approach you or give you matters but one has to be present in court or social circles to build network but with persistence and continuity towards work people will also recommend for your good work.   

How was your experience studying at the National University of Advanced Legal Studies, Kochi, Kerala.? 

NUALS, Kochi has been a beautiful journey when I look back it still feels so fresh. It started from a major change from shifting from North India to extreme South adjusting among the best minds from all states of the country. It was a total 360 degree shift for me in the beginning with a new place, climate, food & language which I wasn’t expecting at all.  But sooner I realized that it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Kerala is a beautiful state & tourism being the main attraction the place offer’s beautiful landscapes -backwaters, beaches, waterfalls & mountains along-with pleasant weather. The local cuisine is also a treat for foodies. I thoroughly enjoyed all the years & specially the Kerala meals.

The College holds a very good reputation among the South colleges and therefore people had even preferred it over Nalsar or any other college among the southern states.  The Faculty is helpful, considerate & friendly with the students but at the same time strict with punctuality & class attendance, returning on time after the break or the involvement of the class during case-laws discussion to keep us updated & eventually enable us to remember the subject. I also remember several practicing lawyers of the Kerala High Court & sitting Judges also visited campus to take guest lectures for various subjects. 

The University offers several interesting electives to opt for the BA.LLB curriculum. For example-Competitions laws, Maritime law, Banking Law, Medical Jurisprudence & other subjects which other colleges do not teach. I was fortunate enough to have learned these subjects while in college.

I remember volunteering for several prestigious moot courts in the University hosts every year like Jessup South India rounds, Surana & Surana along with attending seminars conducted by the faculty under various research centre’s established for legal studies under various disciplines of law. I also participated in Legal-aid clinics, the College Intra Moot as well as the other National Moots.

What are the three most challenging cases you have faced in your career? How did you overcome these challenges?

In Litigation, every case is a new challenge & that’s the charm of it as it deals with an entirely different area of law, precedents every day with a new case & so it would never sound monotonous. Also, it comes with everyday learning from the court proceedings.

Litigation is my passion so it was never a burden but it gave a sense of encouragement after every favorable order. I remember the major cases I dealt with in my first office.

• Litigation management of a Telecom giant- before all the District Courts in Delhi (2015)

I looked after the entire Litigation matters on behalf of Vodafone in all the five district courts listed every day. They were voluminous in number & also had to keep a watch on the ongoing & dismissed matters along with matters for summary suits & the limitation period for the same. 2000 Legal notices were sent in every two days by the team after monitoring the excel-sheets for the amount due & trail mails with the corporate office. Attending the Court along with the Authoritative representative of the Company every-day & obtaining information from other district courts & maintaining the database was quite a task. We also conducted various Lok-Adalats in NDLSA Patiala House for settlement of matters.

• Tax Appeal  before the Supreme Court for a State Cooperative Agricultural & Rural Bank (February 2016)

The matter was regarding whether petitioner being a state cooperative bank is entitled to exemption as a cooperative society under 80 P of the Income Tax, Act 1961. Honestly speaking I had never worked in a tax matter before and therefore it quite a challenge for me as no other junior was working on this matter. Since the matter involved a huge stake and appeals for three consecutive years for which stay was required an external counsel who specialized in taxation worked along-with me on this who helped me understand the scenario & segregate the documents for the respective petitions for the list of dates. The entire office-staff along with Sir sat till 2 o’clock in the night for the many days in winters during weekends as well to complete the drafting & urgent filing within time. The matter was briefed to Mr. Krishnan Venugopal & several conferences in this regard were conducted in the presence of the MD & President of the Coop. Bank. Finally Stay was granted for all consecutive years. It was a great relief after days of hard work. 

• A Batch matter for Power Grid Corporation of India Ltd. (July 2016)

This was a batch of 50 Special Leave Petitions for Power Grid Corp. of India for against the High Court of Punjab & Haryana in land acquisition of Punjab. The documents were huge in number and segregation of all the orders was a task in order to draft, also the maps had to be included and understood. It was altogether a different & interesting case. I remember staying back till morning for this matter to in order to make a rough draft & research the case laws for discussion with the law officer the next day to be able to discuss the issues in detail. Since this was a batch matter and voluminous too filing all the 50 petitions within time took special efforts from the typist & clerks. Whereas we were in Supreme Court for this matter till 9:30 pm for the filing to be done within time & luckily the registry timings were extended then due to opening after the summer vacations.

Three major moments of victory in your career as a lawyer.?

Achievements I believe come as fruits of your labor. There have been many such instances but 3 major ones worthwhile to mention are:-

1. The first time I researched & drafted the Special Leave Petition for a service matter of a Vigilance Commissioner. The Hon’ble Supreme Court issued notice and the matter was admitted as Appeal.
2. This matter dealt with false accusation under section 376 IPC and POSCO Act wherein we got the Bail from the High Court & I followed through in the trial proceedings before the Sessions Judge, Karkardooma District Court & eventually got the acquittal done for my client. 
3. Not exactly a single moment. But here I would like to mention that the success rate for the all the legal research & drafting’s in my career has been nearly 100 % for the purpose of admission be it a SLP, Civil appeal or a Bail matter since we generally dealt with criminal side. It is worth mentioning that when your clients or senior appreciate your work it is also a major moment which in my case came from my senior & law officers of the Department. 

What is your most important skill as a lawyer? How did you develop this skill?

The most important skill for a lawyer is to think fast & slow simultaneously i.e. fast enough to listen & pay attention to detail as to what the court is asking & wants from you as a lawyer. Slow as in intelligent enough to speak only what is required of you.  Absorbing the facts, comprehending the law & updating the knowledge bank is what is expected out of a lawyer but being able to break it up into simple & reasonable conclusion In order to impress upon the court your case in the best possible way is what makes you different.

Attending Court & observing your senior & other counsels during the court proceedings is the key. We actually get to learn the court craft just by observing. So all the skillset we develop is from our own observation, practice & persistence.

Tell us about the 3 most important experiences at the Government Law College that helped you as a student or shaped your career as a lawyer.

To begin with, it’s an absolute no-brainer that the Government Law College has an illustrious history dating back to the 1800’s when it came to be established as Asia’s first law school. The institution prepares its students in a holistic manner in ways which one might not even initially find apparent. For instance, when I was the Treasurer of the Sports Committee in my 3rd and 4th year, I learnt to deal with the inherent bureaucracy and red-tape that comes part-and-parcel with a Government-run institution. I learnt how to adroitly deal with the various authorities involved from requisitioning sports equipment and team jerseys to getting the funds sanctioned for sending the college teams to various sports law fests all over the country. This responsibility at that stage in my life and the active support of my professors taught me how to hustle and be a go-getter instead of idling it out. 

Second, the brilliant part-time faculty like Professor Pithawalla for Company Law and Senior Cousel Mr. T.N. Subraminan for Civil Procedure Code made attending early morning class a truly worthwhile experience. 

Third, the lively on-campus committees were like a breath of fresh air given the limited space and resource constraints. The Placement Committee, the GLC Model United Nations and the Sports Committee (a committee with which I was personally involved) were amongst the most active and one could learn a lot and network at the same time as the responsibilities involved were significant and the college has an excellent alumni network and legacy connections that are more than willing to help if leveraged effectively.

How is the career exposure at GLC Mumbai? Does it have a student-friendly environment? What are the pros and cons?

I would like to quote an illustrious senior’s words when he once famously remarked something to the effect that “GLC is like a buffet spread, you can have a bit of it, all of it or nothing at all.” In other words, the college offers to its students the best of everything whether it is academics, mooting, sports or seminars. However, the onus rests completely on the students to actively make use of these opportunities. The institution does not chaperon them and that can be both a good and bad thing depending on the level of one’s participation by the time graduation comes around. 

You have participated in several moots. Does mooting help in one’s legal career?

To be very honest, now that I am a full-time litigator, mooting does not help one become a good counsel per se. In hindsight, mooting certainly helps a fresher get acquainted with how to prepare and present a case brief, the atmosphere of an actual court room and if one is afraid of public speaking, mooting is an absolute must to overcome the equivalent of stage fright for lawyers. But that apart, as one delves deeper into the sphere of litigation, one realises that mooting and actually arguing a case in court are poles apart. Litigation takes years to master and mooting is at best a soft introduction to it.

What are the 3 things that you liked the most about Duke University? What course did you choose and why?

I loved the fact that Duke is one of the elite law schools in the US with a very small intake per LL.M batch. In fact, my batch had at that point in time, the highest ever intake in the history of the school’s LL.M program and that also stood at a mere 100 candidates. Duke is known to be characteristically selective and extends formal offers to a select group of candidates out of which it finally admits only about 75-80 candidates each intake. This way, everyone from the Dean of the LL.M program to the professors and the administrative personnel knows you by your first name. This warm and friendly atmosphere at Duke made the offer hard to resist.

The professors at Duke are top notch and are world-renowned in their respective fields. To be taught by stalwarts such as the likes of Professor Diane Dimond, Professor John Holton, Professor Francis McGovern, Professor Steven Schwarcz, Professor Neil Vidmar, Professor Ralf Michaels and Professor Bruce Elvin was both enlightening and humbling at the same time. An experience that I can never forget.

The law school has an “open door” policy where there were really no formalities if one wished to meet a professor to clear any doubts no matter how small or trivial they might seem. This was a far cry from some other law schools that graduate several hundreds of LL.M students each year and one couldn’t be faulted for thinking they’re just another product rolling off the conveyor belt. So yes, as far as I was concerned, Duke was definitely a top priority school for a variety of reasons. The professors do their very best to take time out and sit with the student at length. Also, the classrooms resemble less of a football stadium unlike in schools with huge intakes and are more intimately designed with small batch sizes. All of the above coupled with the fact that Duke is counted as one amongst the nation’s top law schools made it a no-brainer for me eventually.

As to the courses I opted for at Duke, I’d like to deal with this question broadly from a country-wise perspective and then specifically narrowing it down to Duke. What tilted the scales decisively towards studying in the US for me was the teaching methods employed that basically involved Socratic-style discussions with professors during class rather than it being the traditional one-sided whiteboard-marker approach adopted in India. Further, the American system is traditionally more assignments based wherein your final grade is computed based on the outcome of weekly/monthly assignments turned in together with an end semester exam. Another compelling factor worth noting is the fact that courses in the US are highly customisable. In the US, one can actually build their own course by selecting courses completely unrelated to each other, so long as they total to a certain number of credit hours within the rules set down by the University. For instance, I did have batch mates who chose to take a course at the neighbouring Nicholas School of Environment or the Fuqua School of Business which counts Tim Cook, the current CEO of Apple as one amongst its illustrious alumni. One can therefore reasonably infer that the education system in America focuses primarily on breadth whilst those of the UK and India focus mainly on depth, in that, in these systems, one is encouraged to specialise rather than diversify whilst in the US, once could ideally tailor the program to better suit their individual needs. I had a batchmate in my arbitration class who was primarily studying in a science-based course but also opted for this one class at the law school.

Coming to myself, I opted for subjects such as Alternative Dispute Resolution, Structuring & Regulating Financial Transactions, Business Associations, Arbitration (American domestic), International Arbitration, Negotiation, the Business & Economics of Law Firms and Legal Research & Writing in the American Legal System amongst others. I found these classes to be very well structured and geared primarily towards contemporary practicing lawyers. For instance, my final assessment in the Arbitration class involved submitting a memorandum of law and oral arguments wherein my course professor presided as an arbitrator. The oral arguments were video recorded and my professor later had a one-on-one with all of us explaining to us exactly where we went wrong and where we could improve whilst our arguments played on the projector screen. 

How is the campus life at Duke? Can you share some good photographs?

For someone hailing from Mumbai, the campus life at Duke sure caught me off-guard in the initial month that I landed in Durham. Unlike a large bustling metropolis like Mumbai or New York City, life in the quiet deep south in North Carolina is poles apart. One could easily whiz past Durham in nanoseconds whilst travelling on the interstate highway. Being a graduate program student, I opted for housing in one amongst the numerous gated community residences located just outside of campus. These come fully equipped with all the amenities one could desire like a gym, swimming pool and electronic secure access to the housing complex, all at a very reasonable price. In that sense, the campus is in a lush green surrounding with the law school having its own dedicated building fully equipped with a state-of-the-art library, study and meeting rooms, cafeteria and lounge room.

How has your degree from Duke helped in your career? According to you what kind of people will benefit from a course at Duke?

The value of an LL.M from a prestigious school such as Duke simply cannot be overstated. Apart from the tangible benefit of having a solid qualification, I feel the intangible benefits are innumerable but some of them deserve a mention. It’s not every time in life that one gets the opportunity to learn from such illustrious professors. Besides our set classes, we also had eminent speakers from policy-making institutions, think-tanks, the American judiciary and attorneys address us almost weekly, on a range of subjects. Coming to the latter half of your question, I’d say a Duke Law degree is ideal for a candidate seeking a program that has a selective intake, prefers small class sizes, is willing to absorb all that the school throws at him/her since the program is well-tailored in a compressed but pacey format given the time constraints and most importantly, works hard in his/her 5 year undergraduate program to earn the credentials to be able to secure an offer of admission, since top law schools in the US tend to be closely scrutinise candidates prior to extending an offer. The best part about the program is the flexibility of the program to pursue interests at the opposite end of the spectrum. Duke Law also offers specialised certificate courses in addition to the vast array of subjects on offer. So whether it’s corporate law, litigation, IP or arbitration, refugee law, human rights and so much more the school has it all covered.

In fact, I must make here a special mention of a course that I had opted for known as “The Business & Economics of Law Firms”. This course basically taught on the practical aspects of US law firms such as the concept of billable hours that associates adhere to there, the categories of partnership structures in large law firms, their business model and profitability methods and the manner in which they used social media and conventional methods to publicise their firm and solicit work, something very different from India where the Bar Council of India rules prohibit the solicitation of clients in any manner. I thoroughly enjoyed pursuing this unique course.

What are the most exciting and upcoming areas in IP law? What kind of matters do you often handle?

In the last 3 or 4 years only, media and entertainment law has grown exponentially to the extent that both law firms and media/production houses are investing huge sums of money into their verticals and are on the look-out for lawyers possessing specialised skills in the field. This comes as no surprise at all considering the advent of OTT streaming services and India’s largely archaic legislation not being in sync with the fast-changing landscape. Take for instance the loopholes in the Cinematograph Act or the at-times conflicting decisions of the various High Courts when it comes to trademark and copyright matters.

My work in this field covers both transactional as well as litigation aspects. Vetting contracts entered into by media houses with social media companies, giving opinions with minimal turn-around time with regard to soon-to-be-launched ad campaigns, attending to matters at the Trade Marks Registry, filing/defending against Commercial IP Suits along with Interim Applications before the Hon’ble Bombay High Court for injunction in cases of copyright infringement, drafting and reviewing celebrity endorsement agreements and drafting non-disclosure agreements are some of the things I’ve dealt within this area of the law. Another important aspect in transactional IP is to have a good idea about the stamp duty payable and the applicable legislation state wise, since stamping goes hand-in-hand with the documentation.

How was your experience working at Mulla & Mulla & Craigie Blunt & Caroe Advocates, Solicitors and Notaries? Tell us about the work environment and the kind of skills you learned while working here.

The exposure at this firm set the foundation for me to handle matters independently at a later stage in my career. The work here also involves my first and only brush with maritime law. I learnt the procedures involved in getting an arrested vessel released, the concepts of laytime/laycan, wharfage and demurrage besides of course litigation and arbitration. I can’t thank the-then senior partner that I was under enough for giving me the opportunity to work under him as a wet-behind-the-ears youngster. It was here that I learnt the basics of client-facing interaction, conveyancing and everything in between, from drafting complex deeds to seemingly not-so-complex recording letters to clients. The work environment at the firm is very conducive to learning the black letter law for a complete fresher. I credit most of this to the then senior partner who very graciously agreed to accept me under his wing. That set the stage for better things to come, amongst them my admission to the LL.M program at a highly selective law school of the caliber of Duke.

How is the practice of IP law different from practising other more common areas of law practice such as civil or criminal litigation?

The practice of IP involves is not as simple as it might seem to most. When dealing with IP (litigation) especially, one invariably has to end up reading on a lot of other ancillary material as part of case management and preparation. A lot of this may or may not have to do with areas of the law only. For instance, in a recent matter that I handled defending a large and reputed media agency from another agency alleging copyright infringement, I had to actually understand the entire creative/ideating process involved right from receiving the client brief, developing a creative deck, making a formal “pitch” to the client as to how the agency envisions the campaign ought to run, receiving the client’s approval for execution and finally, choosing an executing production house who in turn commission prominent directors, calling for “treatment notes” from them. I particularly enjoy such matters since they involve impugned ad campaigns that one already sees on air on television, in theatres and on YouTube. As part of the IP (transactional) practice, the work usually involves giving written opinions in matters before the Advertising Standards Council of India (ASCI). The key here is to advise the client in the minimum possible turn-around time since generally, these hearings are neither adversarial nor adjudicatory in nature and therefore, attorneys are not ordinarily  permitted to represent a client and so, the opinion be drafted in a manner that the client can effectively use it whilst representing himself or herself before such bodies.

What inspires you as a lawyer? What do you think is the best part of the job of a lawyer?

About inspiration

Well frankly, every day when I get up I ask myself a very basic question, “whether I am going to be an impediment or a facilitator in the course of justice”. The system I represent has many stakeholders. They are my clients, my office colleagues, the opposite counsels, the court staff, the Judges and of-course the civil society amongst others. What I do directly or indirectly affects them all. The fact that I am one of the stakeholder in this noble profession inspires me everyday.

Best part of being a lawyer

The best part is people look upto you with lot of trust and respect. They know the position a lawyer holds in the society. A lawyer at any given day is a reservoir of knowledge and holds key elements of practicality to enable people to get justice. We must remember that lawyers are the balancing act between anarchy and rule of law and in a way are the conscience keeper of society through the Court system.

What made you interested in Criminal law?

I have always believed that practicing on a criminal side gives you a certain advantage and also a different kind of foresight into human psychology besides helping you understand the mind of a judge.

As luck would have it most of my internships were on the Criminal side. However it was only when I started my career that somehow people started referring criminal matters to me. I still remember when I was in Dubai there were few prominent matters on the criminal side which were marked to me because of my prior internships on the criminal side. This helped me hone my skill as a Criminal Lawyer.

Also when I returned to India my friends were not practising on the criminal side and were kind enough to refer me matters. It was only later in Tis Hazari Court where my stint as a junior lawyer I practised majorly on the criminal side and had the privilege of conducting trials and following certain cases with appeals. Rest as they say is history.

What are the challenges faced by an independent practitioner at an initial stage?

There are quite a few actually. The first and foremost is understanding the system and people who work in it. For example to handle a registry official requires a different tact than a judge when you are arguing your matter. Similarly you have to be kind to your friends and colleagues and have to have an  understanding of what your Boss/Senior requires of you. When you are fresh at bar you do not know how to handle different people differently and this itself requires time in order to build an equation and reputation at the Bar.

Secondly one constantly needs a steady source of income and work. If you don’t generate work you won’t make money. So one needs a clientele which keeps your office running and in good health.

Thirdly you have to know the law and the procedure as being a lawyer you can not be caught underprepared or unaware. That’s enough to finish you off in your early stages.

Lastly an office space is a must in order for client to take you seriously. You need a space where you can call your client, have a staff and conduct your meeting. That again requires a certain amount of capital and you have to keep the show running.

Describe your experience of working in an international law firm. How did it inform and shape your skills and outlook as a lawyer?

So the first thing they teach you is how to write emails! Well it is an important craft as this is where you are trained to put your thoughts in order and how to be polite to the client and at the same time convey your message affirmatively.

Amongst other things I think are how to deal with different clients differently as each of them have a different legal requirement. So if a shipping dispute comes your way it may have elements of insurance and re-insurance. However if you are asked to work on a dispute involving Oil and Gas or Construction you have to handle it differently.

This is where an international law firm shapes up your outlook and approach to cater to different clients differently. You are like a tailor. One suit doesn’t fit all.

How can an Indian lawyer get a job in Dubai? How to go about it if I am interested?

There are firms which are always looking for expats. You can directly drop an email to their HR with your resume and await an interview call. Also a lot of them also have tie ups with head-hunters and one can get in touch with them to see if there is an opening somewhere. The hiring of any lawyer will eventually depend on their skill set, experience and vertical/area of expertise whether the firm that you are applying to has an opening or not.

Describe your experience of working with senior advocate Amit Sibal. What are your top 3 learnings from him?

It was great. He is a phenomenal lawyer and an extremely dedicated and hardworking person. I don’t think he sleeps much. Also if he has marked you a file you, he would himself know it inside out and even better than a briefing lawyer. So as a junior in his chamber you have to be always prepared and be as ready with the file as he is.

My three learning from him are the 3 C’s he taught me. Clarity, Conscience and Case Law. Clarity of facts when you are given a matter. While arguing have to knock at the conscience of the Court and thirdly back your matter with Case Laws.

Could you tell us about three of your most challenging cases? What were the challenges you faced while working on them?

There have been lots. I can’t point at one in particular as every case comes with its own sets of problems and challenges. But I’ll illustrate a few.

There was a criminal matter which was marked to me when I was with Clyde & Co. A European Company who was the client of the firm called as 4 of its employees were arrested and their passport impounded because an Indian worker had died on site.

When I was given this task, as per Sharia Law, there is a concept of blood money and pardon by the family of deceased. The family was based out of a remote village in Punjab and I made sure that they were provided the blood money seamlessly and in turn gave pardon to the clients in writing and they were released and acquitted in the matter.

Another case I concluded a few years ago was in helping a Senior citizen evict his sons from his property who were troubling him and his bed ridden wife (suffering from Alzheimer’s) after a long winded battle in Delhi High Court. Multiple cases were filed by the sons which got dismissed and we later won the case in their favour and also by way of a landmark judgment outlaying the criteria and scope of Maintenance and Welfare of Parents and Senior Citizens Act, 2007 titled. This was widely circulated amongst online legal and other media platforms.

One case I took on 5-6 years ago before was getting a Swedish Client relief  from NCDRC. It was a dispute against a big builder who had taken his earnest money and had not build the property (which is now common place). I had filed a parallel criminal proceeding and within 11 months got the relief to client from NCDRC with 12% interest on his principle amount. Now I don’t think one even gets a second date that easily in NCDRC. It was one of the first builder cases in the country to get such a quick relief.

Tell us about a case and court performance that you are particularly proud of.

So recently I was representing an accused of a sexual offence matter and he was being unnecessarily harassed by the lady/complainant. So much so that his FIR under Section 354 got converted to S376!

I filed a writ in Delhi High Court complaining that the lady has been constantly calling him to settle the matter and putting his trial in jeopardy. The Court came to the rescue of this man and I helped him secure a relief by getting a restraining order against the woman in a Rape matter which was unheard of. This also got reported in media.

What, in your opinion would be very useful advice to give to an aspiring criminal lawyer?

I think to any aspiring criminal lawyer I would say do not skip Trial Court. It is where you build your fundamentals and learning curve is very steep. The art of examination and cross examination will help you life long and enable you to even assist the Appellate Court later with your understanding of Trial.

Let me give you a quick example. In 2014-15 I was appearing for State of Rajasthan in a criminal matter before the Supreme Court and one of the judge had a question about conducting statement of the accused under section 313 CrPC.  The opposite counsel had no idea about how its done.

The judge pointedly asked me ‘So young man, do you have anything to say in this?’. I started explaining them about the procedure and also gave my feedback as to how it can be improved at the trial level with respect to proper participation of the Prosecutor and the Accused. The judge thanked me and asked me how do I know this. I said that I regularly appear in trial court besides appearing before the Supreme Court and this provides a valuable learning curve to me. He smiled and thanked me for my assistance. When I later saw the judgment I found my name specially mentioned with a line of appreciation. Hence Trial is a must!

The author of this interview is an advocate practising in the Gujarat High Court. You can reach her vide her twitter/ Instagram account: @manushidesai.

Mr Ram Jethmalani is one of India’s top lawyers known to be an able cross-examiner, an outstanding advocate and a crusader for social justice. His biography was recently published and launched by the Hon‘ble Chief Justice of India. He shot to fame after appearing in the K. M. Nanavati Case and was in the news for standing up against corruption in the Black Money Case. India’s flamboyant legal eagle takes time out to share his insights in a one to one interview at his Akbar Road residence with Delhi University Law Graduate, Manushi Satyajeet Desai.
Here is the interview.

In the interview, he is talking about

• How to be a good lawyer?
• Importance of other laws than just legal knowledge.
• How to be an honest law student?
• A most important skill of a lawyer.

You have been practising since long and have constantly been fighting for your clients often at the cost of the judge’s rebuking as seen in various top cases. What does it take to be a good lawyer?

One should learn to distinguish the profession from a business. In a profession, money-making is not an important object – although people sometimes make more money than they should, but that’s not the point. The point is that one has to ALWAYS have the notion that the legal profession is a method of service to the public.

How was it when you started? What do you think of the current legal system and the dearth of good lawyers?

Nobody wants your service free. If you offer free service, people will think that the man is trying to build business for themselves. And today our whole legal aid system as you call it, organized by the bar, the court or the government is a sham. They don’t give the best lawyers to a poor litigant. They are in fact, making experiments between the law and the poor people. When I was the Chairman of the Bar Council of India, I had drafted a Professional Rules of Conduct added to the existing Rules of Conduct – that it is the professional duty of every lawyer within the economic capacity to render free legal aid to those who stand in need of it and this is the professional obligation more of seniors whose assistance is required by the poor people who sometimes get in the middle of some unfair litigation where only a good lawyer can be of help.
Also, only those persons should take the law who do not regard the practice of law as a business.

What is the secret behind making money in the profession?

I have finished more than 75 years of my practice and I make a good bit of money, certainly not like a lot of top lawyers, some of whom are too business-minded. I do make money but I make it from 10% of my clients while 90 % of work is free of cost, no fees. That’s the way I serve the people.

How to be a successful advocate? You have time and again represented the Government in big cases, something law students wish to emulate you for. What is the secret?

Law is a profession, the practise of which requires tremendous industry. You must be capable when you are young to put in about 15-16 hours of work. If you are not capable of that kind of industry, then you should take to some other kind of profession or business.

What should a law student learn to start off well? Nowadays, students dedicate their time to moots, research, internships and debating. Is it the right path?

A lawyer who only knows the law is a missile, what you need to be is that you should be an architect. Justice does not ultimately depend on law, it depends on facts. And the lawyer must know not only law but a smattering of everything. History, philosophy, science, logic, languages, a lawyer must realize that ultimately advocacy consists of persuading a judge with your oral argument. The more command over the language you have, the more persuasive you can be and that puts you ahead of your rivals.

What is the duty of a law student? What makes an honest lawyer? You have time and again preached the importance of fidelity and morality in law. What does a law student do, to be honest and righteous?

When you appear for a client, your duty is not only to the lawyer but also to the appellant. Morality consists not in obeying the law, but in carrying out that which is not enforceable by the law. In other words, for example, if a lawyer promises the other lawyer that the next day I will consent to an adjournment, this promise is not capable of enforcement, but it is his duty to keep that promise – as a lawyer, as a gentleman. Observance of that which is unenforceable is the highest form of morality.

What should law students do to be the role models in society? What is an important trait to develop as a law student? You have extensively mentored law students, written weekly for the Sunday Guardian and been Professor Emeritus at Symbiosis University, Pune. Yet, you find time to pursue your passion for law. How should we start to get there? What is the secret?

In my lectures to law students and sometimes even practising lawyers, I told them that the spiritual ancestor of the legal profession is a character in the Biblical stories, the story of Danielle and Suzzana. That’s a story located in Ancient Babylon. They say that Babylon was ruled by a council of elders like in the modern panchayat – the oldest persons were the rulers of administration. But, there lived in ancient Babylon, a woman of almost breathtaking beauty. So, each of the old men passed a lecherous glance at her and tried to seduce her but the virtue of this woman was stronger than the solicitations of these old men. They brought a false charge against her and naturally the accusers, the complainants and the judges were all rolled into one; therefore these four old men succeeded. So no wonder the poor woman was found guilty, charged with adultery of a young man unknown. And in those days the practice used to be that the person who was sentenced to death as she was, was to be stoned to death. So, they say that a crowd had collected to see the blood of the woman flow but before the first stone was tossed there arose from the audience a young man called Danielle. Danielle said, “I don’t believe this woman is guilty” and he kicked up a row. Though the crowd was not impressed by his wisdom, they were certainly impressed by his bravado1 They said young man what do you want? He said I want to ask questions to these old men. They said, alright, ask. He was not a trained lawyer but he made some rudimentary cross-examinations that please tell me where you find this adultery being committed. So each of the four men gave such highly conflicting replies. Somebody says it was in a palace, somebody says it was in a sea beach, somebody says it was moonlight, somebody says it was sunlight like that. They say that the crowd which was gathered for the blood of the woman flow was now howling for the blood of the old men. Then the poor woman was let out.

Danielle was the first lawyer in history.

So, the essence that you draw from this: he worked without a fee, he fought against the establishment, against the power – the ruling power, he fought for justice, and he did not mind what the people will think of him

What is the most important skill in criminal litigation a law student should learn? What is required to be a great lawyer like you?

Lawyers must insist on becoming good cross examiners. The art of cross-examination has practically died out in the legal profession.

The views expressed are those of the interviewee. Neither the interviewer nor this blog takes any responsibility for the comments.
This interview may not be published elsewhere by anybody.
copyright Manushi Desai.

Navneet Chugh is the managing partner and founder of The Chugh Firm and has over 30 years of experience as an attorney and a certified public accountant. A founding donor of 1947 Partition Archives and a member of the World Presidents’ Organization, he founded TiE Southern California in 1997. In 2003, he was the founder president of the North American South Asian Bar Association (www.NASABA.com), a nationwide body representing 10,000 south Asian lawyers in the U.S. and Canada. In 1995, he founded South Asian Bar Association of Southern California (SABA).

Navneet serves on the boards of HAB Bank, Ignify Consulting, Dhandho Holdings, India Community Center, Sikh Center of Orange County and Premier Media, Inc., the publisher of India Journal. He is a former board member of TiE Global, American India Foundation and Asia Society of Southern California.

He also serves as a board member of Pratham USA’s Los Angeles chapter.

He is or has been on the boards of:
1. American India Foundation
2. Asia Society of Southern California
3. India Community Center (ICC)
5. Pratham USA
6. Sikh Center of OC
7. Habib American Bank
8. Ignify – an IT Consulting Firm
9. Premier Media, Inc., publisher of “India Journal”.
10. The 1947 Partition Archives

In this interview, he talks about

• Indian Lawyers Association
• The vision behind this association and how much the vision has been achieved so far.
• Why further education is important for lawyers.
• He is also talking about personal development for lawyers.

What is Indian Lawyers Association?

Indian Lawyers Association helps in connect with other legal professionals across the country to share information and best practices. Member groups include more than 70 chapters that produce valuable resources. We hope to be at 400 chapters by the end of next year. It is amazing that for 71 years, the lawyers of India do not have a professional trade association. ILA is one of the indigenous largest voluntary professional organization which is committed to doing what only a national association of advocates can do for improving the legal profession by eliminating the bias and enhancing diversity. ILA provides members with opportunities to enhance their professional skills and helps them grow their network and to access world-class resources to stay on top of current developments in the legal field. At ILA we promote the rule of law and the effective administration of justice which leads to an increase in public understanding and respect for the rule of law, the legal process and the role of the advocates.

Why did you set this up and what is the vision behind it?

We need to elevate the profession, increase the respect for the profession. We need to fight for our rights. We need to create a fairer marketplace wherein lawyers can advertise, take matters on a contingency basis, do other businesses along with the practice of law. To create a common platform for lawyers Pan India where the lawyers can not only deliberate upon various legal and social issues ailing or prevalent in our country or may crop up in future but also try to find a solution and bring about a change through policymakers. The vision of this platform is also to find solutions and work for the welfare of fellow lawyers and to motivate the legal fraternity to do pro bono work.

How much of that vision has been achieved so far?

We have already created 70 chapters of ILA across India where we are first trying to build a platform for lawyers pan India and once we are done with creating a platform pan India basis, then we can robustly pursue our vision through the common platform. Having said so, we are also simultaneously organising events and conferences across India on various legal issues. We did our first annual conference in Delhi in December of 2018 with 80 speakers and 700 attendees.

Each chapter will have a board of 15 members, and several committees that will operate independently. We would like ten per cent of the 1.3 million lawyers to be actively involved in ILA daily, monthly, and annual activities.

What is your thought on continuing legal education for lawyers?

In my thought, there should be a mandatory continuing legal education as it ensures that the members of bars are informed of the evolving laws. It is important for ILA to recognize this and emphasize upon it. That such innovation is a very good thing and should still be required, if for no other reason than to give the public confidence in the profession and apart from that it will extend well beyond just staying up-to-date with the law.

How should lawyers approach personal development and continuous growth?

Personal growth and development are essential for everyone in the workplace, not just lawyers.

Organisations change and so does the law. This means that you need to be continually developing personally to meet ever-evolving challenges. If you are not consciously learning all the time, you are probably going backwards. The key to realising your full potential begins with setting relevant and achievable objectives that allow you to keep pace with change and then grow.

Whatever your role, you’ll want to know what success looks like. In most cases, success comes from a combination of how you use your skills and knowledge, and the behaviours and attitudes you adopt.

I feel successful lawyers must also focus on the soft skills of networking both internally and externally in order to increase their name and recognition.

Community involvement and civic engagement are also important to me (and should be for any lawyer

Advocate Ashima Mandla is a renowned Supreme Court Lawyer. She works with many institutions including Legal and Human rights department of Delhi Pradesh Congress Committee, Criminal Justice Society of India, National Student’ Union Legal Aid Clinic and many more. She is an active and enthusiastic lawyer. She had worked with many renowned lawyers including Mr K.T.S. Tulsi, Senior Advocate and Member of Parliament, Mr Vivek Tankha, Senior Advocate and Member of Parliament (Rajya Sabha).

She is an experienced Secretary-General with a demonstrated history of working in the political organization industry.

In this interview, she is talking about

• Her experience working with advocate K.T.S. Tulsi.
• How a good team and a good mentor can shape your career well.
• PILs about gender neutrality.
• Anty-lynching bill.
• Her top three internships.

What’s the best thing about practising criminal law? What excites you about this area of law the most?

The intricacies of the evidence in especially blue-collar crimes in criminal law that we deal with, it is challenging and exciting. Within the framework of the procedural and substantiate statutory provisions, both the prosecution and defence have their narrative of the events transpired, and because each case is different than the previous, it always keeps you on your toes. However, at the same time, while dealing with each case, I continuously remind myself that if I do not perform at my job, it is someone’s life at stake.

Describe your experience of working under Mr K.T.S. Tulsi. How did it inform and shape your skills and outlook as a lawyer?

I owe my career to Tulsi sir. He is the reason behind me choosing litigation and then later switching to independent practice. Sir is an extremely patient teacher, who expects nothing less than perfection in his drafts. He is the epitome of what one can achieve with relentless hard work. When I joined Sir, apart from being an Associate in his Chamber, I was also responsible for his social media handling and Parliamentary Affairs, which widened the scope of my learning and afforded me with a platform for linking legal practice and legislative drafting. Tulsi sir always encouraged me to make my own way and was extremely supportive when I wanted to venture into trying cases independently. He always encouraged my ideas and still does and through his own stories, has constantly taught me immensely about law, life and beyond. Even today, it is because of Tulsi sir that I have been able to operate independently, as he has been very kind enough in allowing us to use his chamber for the same.

How would you describe your starting few years in this field? What were the challenges that you faced and how did you deal with them?

It is no secret that to establish yourself in the legal field takes years and sometimes decades. I have been extremely lucky that I got the opportunity to work under Tulsi Sir when I was fresh out of law school. He instilled the values of perseverance, foresight and meticulousness in me. It is extremely important that your boss/team that you choose to work under/with, especially when you are starting out, is encouraging and patient. If you start your career in a conducive environment, you cannot help but be passionate about your job. In my personal experience, the biggest challenge for me has been to overcome the fear of arguing in court. As when  I was working under Mr Tulsi, my primary job was briefing him on matters and occasionally drafting briefs. There was still a safety-net in doing that as any possible mistake made on my end could be rectified even before it could potentially hurt the chances of our client in Court. However, when I took up an independent practice, it became all-too-real.

The greatest moment of victory in a courtroom ever?

I think each case is important in your career, as every case teaches you something, honing your skills & shaping your personality. The beauty of some of the work done inside the courtroom is when the consequences can be seen in the world outside. For me, each time the presiding Judge has observed or rule in favour of the clients I represent is a victory in its own right. But there was a particular moment when I was arguing my second case in Delhi High Court, and the issue was pertaining to the civil right violations pertaining to Safai Karamcharis, when the then Presiding Chief Justice, HMJ Gita Mittal commended my efforts as a young lawyer and said ‘I have practically given you the moon with this order’ and actually set aside a few minutes within the courtroom to know about my co-counsel Ms Mandakini Singh & I. It felt amazing getting such appreciation so early on, which encouraged me to take up more such work. Moreover, it is very encouraging when your work gets discussed and covered outside of the courtroom.

What are the most exciting PILs you have filed till date? What made you interested in PILs? What makes you spend a substantial part of your time working on these PILs, especially when they often come in the way of paid work?

I believe that like each stone can cause a ripple effect, each of us has the power to contribute in some way to effect some change, irrespective of the magnitude of the same. So, I only invest in those PILs whose issues I hold close to me and my sense of morality.  But it isn’t true that I always choose PILs overpaid over! 🙂

You filed a PIL about gender neutrality of sexual offences and later drafted the Criminal Law Amendment Bill, 2019 proposing for gender-neutral laws for sexual offences. As a woman don’t you think that such a move can harm women in Indian society? What should India make sexual offences gender neutral?

Even though the landmark judgment of the Supreme Court in  Navtej Singh Johar, decriminalising of homosexuality has been pronounced, the rights of men, transgender persons and to an extent, women are sequestered from laws pertaining to sexual offences. In my opinion, the violation of the body of any person is an offence. It is my true belief that discrimination is the anti-thesis of democracy and sensitivity to the plight of all persons must be inculcated in our worldview. By assuming that gender neutrality of rape laws may harm the society, we are demeaning the sanctity of the body of any person who does not fit in the rigid ambit of the present definition of laws pertaining to sexual offences.

It is ironical that the definition of rape u/s 375 IPC has been enlarged and is no longer limited to penile-vaginal orifice, however on the other hand when the same acts are forcibly inflicted beyond ‘man’ as a perpetrator and ‘woman’ as a victim, in the eyes of the current statute, it does not amount to rape. In my opinion, there appears to be no intelligible differentia for this discrimination.

Hence, we filed the Writ Petition on behalf of the Criminal Justice Society of India seeking gender-neutral rape laws. The Bench led by the Hon’ble CJI found the issue valid however directed us to make a representation to the Parliament. Thereafter, I drafted a bill proposing gender-neutral rape laws, under the able guidance of Mr Tulsi. The bill titled ‘Criminal Law Amendment Bill, 2019’ has been introduced in the Rajya Sabha by Mr Tulsi for amending the Indian Penal Code, 1860; Code of Criminal Procedure, 1973 and Indian Evidence Act, 1872. The bill proposes to make S.354 (Assault or criminal force to women with intent to outrage her modesty), 354A (sexual harassment and punishment for sexual harassment), 354B (assault or use of criminal force with the intent to disrobe), 354C (voyeurism), 354D (stalking),375 (rape),376 (punishment for rape) gender neutral by the way of an amendment. Furthermore, we have proposed the insertion of Section 354A (sexual assault). Lastly, another significant proposed amendment is to Section 8 by inserting transgender to the definition of Gender and to Section 10 by inserting ‘Others’ to the provision containing definition of ‘Man’ and ‘Woman’, which was done to ensure that no person is denied relief in the penal laws based on biological and gender identity, sexual orientation.

I sincerely hope that this legislation or something similar will be enacted in the future.

Could you tell us about your most challenging PIL ever? what were the challenges you faced while working on this case?

The criminal writ petition titled Criminal Justice Society of India v. Union of India & Ors. sub-judice in the Hon’ble Apex Court seeking FIR u/s 304/107 IPC against erring officials, contractors, and persons who have directly or indirectly employed manual scavengers who have met their untimely demise because of the hazards of the job-profile they were engaged in. So far most of the Respondent States have coming up with a reply denying having manual scavengers on their payroll while deaths are being reported in the news ever-so-often. In situations like these, it becomes a herculean task to get effective results when there is alleged concealment of data.

You were one of the persons who drafted the anti-lynching bill that was recently passed by the Rajasthan State Legislature. What made you think of working on it? What would it take to stop lynching from happening regularly in India?

In the lynching issue, the Supreme Court mandated that the guidelines laid down in the judgment be implemented by the legislature. I was part of the drafting of the Anti-Lynching Bill along with the MASUKA (Maanav Suraksha Kanoon) team and office of Dr Shashi Tharoor. The bill was decided to be worked upon on a time where after the unfortunate lynching incident of Pehlu Khan, suddenly there were numerous such incidents which came into limelight. It was imperative to propose legislation dealing with lynching since the same is not covered in IPC and this decision was jointly taken by Mr Tulsi & Dr Tharoor.

The definition of lynching under the bill is extensive but not exhaustive. Through the proposed bill, the accountability for prevention of lynching is affixed upon the Police Officer as well as District Magistrate and triable by Designated Judges appointed by the Centre & State. Furthermore, there are provisions for compensation, relief camps etc. for the victim. Lynchings may subside in the country when the persons responsible behind such crimes are punished in an expeditious manner which may act as a deterrent for others. The idea is to have laws which are not reduced to merely being paper tigers.

Mr Tulsi introduced the Protection from Lynching Bill in Rajya Sabha in December 2017. Yet, the Parliament has not taken up the Bill to be discussed and voted upon. In the Lok Sabha, Mr Shashi Tharoor submitted the Bill, but it was rejected from being listed, stating the subject as a matter for state legislatures to decide upon. Currently, a contempt petition is about to be taken up by the Hon’ble Supreme Court with regard to non-compliance with the judgment. However, the State Legislature of Rajasthan has taken up the bill in its entirety.

You filed an important PIL regarding Aadhaar and food security. Can you tell us more about it?

In K.S. Puttaswamy (Aadhaar) matter, we had an I.A. which Tulsi Sir argued, limited to challenging the linking of mobile phone numbers with the Aadhaar Card, for which we got effective relief as in the judgment, the Hon’ble Apex Court struck down S.57 of the Aadhaar Act, taking away the liberty of private companies for seeking details of the Aadhar card for any purpose.

With regard to food security, on behalf of social activists, have moved the Hon’ble Supreme Court for the establishment of pan-India community kitchens to combat hunger, malnutrition and starvation and the deaths resulting thereof. Despite of various government schemes and private endeavours, the estimated number of persons deprived of food on an everyday basis is approximately 19 crores, and moreover and estimated number of 25 Lakh deaths result in an annual basis as a consequence of the same. Our entire team is in hope that some effective directions result out of the matter raised.

What are the skills you wish you developed before starting litigation?

I think the virtue of patience is paramount in litigation and something which I wish I had more of. Moreover, the ability to devote time on a daily basis to reading landmark judgments and expanding my knowledge in the field in more than one way.

You interned a lot as a law student. Top 3 internships when you look back?

I took up 10 internships in my 3 years of LL.B. The three internships which changed my perception and trajectory of career would be  Chambers of Mr K.T.S. Tulsi, Senior Advocate & Member Parliament (Rajya Sabha); Chambers of Mr Siddharth Luthra, Senior Advocate and Trilegal, Delhi.

What are the challenges faced by an independent practitioner at an initial stage? How much can a young litigator expect to earn in his/her first few years in the field?

It’s indeed a struggle for a new lawyer, especially if you go independent at an early age. For months at a stretch, you may not have many matters and the clients may not want to pay you as much because you don’t have much experience. However, the sooner you start off litigating for yourself, the better it is. If you intend to enter litigation, you may start off by working in a firm or under a Senior Advocate/Advocate/AoR, wherein the work is majorly drafting & briefing centric. However, if efforts to become independent are not made at an early age, complacency may start to creep in and may become difficult to come out of your comfort zone. Therefore, one needs to be proactive and impose self-discipline and work towards being well-versed at least with the field you are practising in, especially if it is a niche area of law. You may take the first few years to figure out what excites you and then specialize in it. In the first few years even if you make a few mistakes nobody will judge you. However, mistakes made after 5 years stick with you. It is indeed a challenging task to market your skills and convinces the client to appoint you. Clients usually come in, talk about their matter and take your fee quote for the matter and similarly consult various lawyers before engaging one. Hence, you may have to come up with a somewhat radical strategy. At the end of it, what they are seeking is a person who can get them their relief. Merely theoretical knowledge is not sufficient. As a litigator, one must know how to use theoretical knowledge and practically apply it to the case at hand.

As far as the remuneration in the initial years is concerned, it completely depends upon the opportunity you are afforded with. Most of the lawyers pay their juniors somewhere between Rs. 10,000-25,000 a month and if you are lucky enough that your boss allows you to take upon independent practice, simultaneously, then, of course, the world is your oyster!

Considering that law is a tough field to sustain in at the initial stage, how could one judge whether or not they are made of this field?

In my limited experience, what I can say is that Law is an ever-so evolving subject. Hence, the profession requires a lot of reading which you have to be prepared for. Rather, this is why it is called ‘reading law’. If you are not comfortable with reading substantial amounts of content regularly and learn something new every day, it could get difficult. This is an idea that has to be inculcated when undergoing internships. Moreover, the internship period must be viewed as a preview into your life post-graduation & students should endeavour to learn as much as they can in this period and see it as something which is merely a mandatory part of their curriculum.