Super Lawyer

Category: Interviews

  • Nikita Hora, founder at Lawyers Connect shares her experience of joining the family business, taking unconventional pathways and being multi-skilled.

    Nikita Hora, founder at Lawyers Connect shares her experience of joining the family business, taking unconventional pathways and being multi-skilled.

    This interview has been published by Isam Kabir and The Super Lawyer team. The Interview was taken by Priyanka Cholera.

    Your goal of working in the coal and logistics business could have been possible even with a Bachelor’s in Business or Economics. Was there anything in particular that inspired you to study law at Jindal Global Law School instead?

    Joining my father’s coal trading and logistics business was never the ultimate goal when I entered law school. I always wanted to do something in journalism.  I was blessed that the professors at JGLS were very supportive and helped me to shape my idea into reality. During my third year, one of my professors guided me to attend a short term business and entrepreneurship course at Stanford University. 

    Joining the coal trading and logistics business was mere destiny. I had joined the company for a short duration as little legal work had to be taken care of, but then my father wanted to expand his business, and I thought it would be best to take his legacy ahead.    

    If joining dad’s business would have been an ultimate goal after graduation, I would have preferred and opted for law. Every business requires the ability to foresee risk and understand people’s mindset while taking or giving the work and negotiating with the financial institutes and third parties. There are times in the business world where you cannot run to the Chartered Accountant or lawyers while allotting or taking up specific work. One needs to be very quick in decision making. As a lawyer, I am well informed whether we can take up certain aspects of the position and go about compliance and paperwork. Additionally, as law graduates, we attain a different level of convincing power and confidence during class participation, debates, paper presentation, job interview, etc. That can never be gained by doing a Bachelor’s in Business or Economics. 

    Due to my legal knowledge, Not only I  survived and made my place as a female in a highly male-dominated work area. But also I had the edge over others. 

    During your time at JGLS, you worked at the Centre for International Trade and Economics Laws and took a residential summer course at Oxford University. Could you share your experiences working with experts in this field, both in India and abroad? How did the summer course and the Centre help you in building a career in the logistics business? 

    I studied Human Rights in Corporates at Oxford University. At the Centre for International Trade and Economics Laws (CITEL), I learnt about the work done at the World Trade Organization. At CITEL, I read various dispute settlements between countries w.r.t trade, different policies, treaties,  arrangements and worked on Trade Monitoring Policy Reports. There is usually a pattern to draft, understand and interpret certain agreements or documents. So while working with CITEL I gained a deep understanding of the aforementioned requisites. In the coal logistics and trading business, we participate in various tenders with immense terms and conditions, so understanding these documents is easy as I have already dealt with immensely complicated documents with trillions of guidelines. 

    Your profile highlights multiple internships at places including Enhelion, TATA, INDIA LAW LLP, and iPleaders as well. According to you, how are internships helpful in apprehending the practical aspects of the legal sector?

    I have interned in various setups  MNCs, law firms and startups. There is one thing that I feel is common: “a senior’s experience is as important as the knowledge we get from law books and legal websites”. When we land up in the practical world, we start valuing each lesson or suggestion. 

    Secondly, while we are studying or in college, we tend to be very casual about what we speak, the way we sit or stand or network, but while interning, we realize how even our smallest gesture is under observation. Hence Internships are extremely essential in shaping law students for the real world.

    Nikita Hora

    In an interview with JGU, you spoke about your dilemma while choosing your career between entrepreneurship and law. What points did you take into account while making such a crucial decision?

    I enjoyed studying law, writing research papers and have been an active participant in the class. However, I was unsure if I would like to work in a law firm or do litigation. On the other hand, I was also aware that running or starting a business is not as simple as it looks. Growing up I have witnessed my father working day and night similar to how professors tell us about the work-life of successful lawyers. So one thing was very clear that both professions are extremely demanding. So the only solution was to work harder and network more. 

    The best part was that we were allowed to interact with business school professors in college and, after seeking their permission, were allowed to sit in their classes too. Fortunately, business school professors offered two projects, and I have taken those projects too. So, I was reading both business books and law books which was helping me to recognise and shape my interest. 

    The biggest decision maker was when I attended the Business and Entrepreneurship course at Stanford University. I was the youngest student and got an opportunity to network with accomplished individuals who were either working or were planning to start their venture. Then I realized that a professional degree is essential for running any business. 

    In 2014, you worked as a Reporter and Communication Manager at LiveLaw. How would you describe your experience working in the field of legal journalism?

    In a word, I would say “incredible”. I loved working for LiveLaw, and I am very proud that I was part of the team once upon a time. I have learnt a lot at LiveLaw from MA Rashid sir and PV Dinesh sir. Through LiveLaw, I understood the true meaning of journalism. The best part of the team was that they appreciated our skills immensely. I still remember I was given the task to make the questionnaire for the interview, and when they liked my work, I got proper support and guidance, which helped improve my skills. I think there are very few workplaces where students’ ideas are taken seriously. LiveLaw is one of them. It brings a sense of belongingness and is highly motivating. This is an experience that I make sure to implement in my company as well.     

    Before pursuing your LLM in 2016, you had decided to work as a legal analyst. Could you please tell our readers how you gained clarity about your objectives regarding the course and joining your father’s business? 

    I always wanted to do a Masters, my application for LLM was accepted by three Universities in the United States. However, when I was figuring out which University would be a better place to study, one of the very senior people from Tata Steel under whom I had interned guided me that I am more interested in taxation law, but I have better understanding skills towards Corporate Law. Therefore, I should give more time to understand whether my approach towards Taxation Law is better than Corporate Law. Consequently, I decided to work for a year before pursuing a Master’s degree. 

    My father has been expanding his business since I joined him. Eventually, I started dealing with government agencies, business associates, professionals and financial institutes. Additionally, I realized my legal knowledge was beneficial for my father to make quick and confident decisions. It also used to help him negotiate in a better way. So I decided that I should further sharpen my skills and knowledge towards law; therefore, I opted for LLM in Corporate and Financial Law.

     

    Nikita Hora,

    You are also involved in the marketing operations of HospiBuz. How did the interest in marketing emerge?

    I am blessed with a family where my parents and elder sister are extremely talented, hard-working and multitasking. So I have to make sure that I match their standards. Just Kidding !! As I told you that I have always been keen on entrepreneurship and loved interacting with new people, so marketing was always an area of interest. My mother and elder sister are the founders of Hospitality Lexis’s magazine company with its online presence, HospiBuz. I used to love their work, content and creativity, and I could endlessly appreciate their brand and give them ideas for marketing. While working in Pune, I used to network immensely, and people used to love the magazine and the portal. Eventually, when I relocated to Bhopal, I immediately grabbed the opportunity and took the task of marketing and distribution.  

    Lawyers Connect is one of India’s most extensive networks for lawyers. Did the need to establish this platform arise from personal experiences or hardships that you faced while networking? How do you balance your time and responsibilities with your professional work, as well as with Lawyers Connect?

    To answer the first part of the question I would say both personal experiences as well as hardships. When I realised the importance of referral marketing, I noticed that there is no forum in Pune where Lawyers and Company secretaries can refer to each other. So then I formed Pune Lawyers Connect and used to call for a meet up where Lawyers and Company secretaries would interact and know each other and refer and collaborate. Lawyers and CS from Pune often asked me if I would connect them with lawyers and CS of different cities, then slowly I created forums for different cities like Bangalore, Mumbai, etc. 

    I enjoy my professional work immensely, and Lawyers Connect is my passion, so I am neither tired nor bored working. I get time to work on weekends too. 

    The pandemic has not only changed the way we work but also the way we manage our teams. What are the top three leadership challenges you have faced while working amid the COVID crisis?

    First -It is very difficult to keep personal and professional life separate. We need to make each team member understand how they should prioritize the work instead of giving them a list that needs to be completed within a certain time span. 

    Second,-Few things are not in our control, and we need to move forward and make decisions when things are uncertain. I would say every problem or confusion has a solution, and sometimes it’s good to be patient to get the solution. For example, when the RBI had announced the moratorium, the terms and conditions were a little vague; however, decisions had to be taken, so my father taught me not to panic and analyze each aspect (good and bad) patiently. 

    Third, I would not say challenge, but the realization, our team members and business associates are like our extended family. Therefore, we should value and appreciate each one’s task. During the pandemic, I realized the importance and preciousness of each team member. Therefore I take no team member for granted as few team members are ready to happily sacrifice their comfort so that there is no business loss.   

    Nikita Hora

    What keeps you busy other than work? Could you tell our readers about your hobbies? Any movies, work of art or books that have had a profound impression on you.

    During my time in Pune, I used to be busy networking and meeting new people whenever I could.. The city being a student and startup hub, there were various interactive sessions, meet-ups, and conferences I attended apart from work. As a result, I always enjoy meeting and interacting with the legal profession and entrepreneurs. 

    I am a big-time foodie, so I love reading about the new trends of the food and restaurant industry. In addition, I love to read the interviews of people who are running the show. 

    I also love luxurious holidays, so whenever I am free, I read about the most luxurious hotel and resort brands worldwide. Mostly each hotel and their lobby has some unique story or concepts which are depicted very well.    

    What would your advice be to all the young lawyers and law students who want to make a career in law through unconventional pathways?

    While you are in college, explore all the areas you are interested in without being scared. There is nothing wrong with dreaming big or thinking of doing something out of the box. However, when you think of doing something out of the box, make sure that you work harder, a step more than other people. 

    Success has no shortcuts and is very challenging, so always be ready to take up responsibilities and work very hard, whatever situation you are in. 

    Get in touch with Nikita Hora

  • Ashok Ram Kumar shares his experience of being an IP & Tech lawyer for over 30 years, building WordictIP, IP Markets and Innovpath and advising young lawyers.

    Ashok Ram Kumar shares his experience of being an IP & Tech lawyer for over 30 years, building WordictIP, IP Markets and Innovpath and advising young lawyers.

    This interview has been published by Isam Kabir and The Super Lawyer team .

    1.Please tell us about your law school journey; what inspired you to join this profession? 

    My great-grandfather, the late Mr Sivashankaram Pillai, had a substantial impact on my decision, and I also drew inspiration from a dear lecturer Mr Prasad. As a result, I secured a high rank in Osmania University’s first-ever entrance exam for its esteemed LLB program. A few quality professors filled my student life with simplistic learning and ever-lasting memories. These three years also saw me be a medal-winner athlete, not to overlook my captaincy of the OU Cricket Team. 

    My typical day would begin with travelling 24 km to reach the University and sit for long hours of classes. Afterwards, I would alternate between “A-Grounds” for cricket net sessions and the library.

    2.When and how did you develop an interest in IP law?

    I believe what I am today is because of my Seniors, Mr R. Sashidharan and Mr Krishnamurthy. During my time in the Chambers of Mr Krishnamurthy, I developed a great interest in intellectual property and researched upon it extensively. I would often travel to Chennai and spend time learning the various procedures in the Trademark Registry. Initially, I started dealing with trademark applications, and the first application I had filed was for a mark “Cyber Shopee”.

    3.You established your IP-based firm while working with different companies as a legal consultant over the years. How did you manage the two simultaneously?

    I initially started an IP Consulting Firm named “IPR Consultants”. I didn’t realize the impact a name could have until a client pointed out that the title suggested a consulting firm. This prompted me to rechristen IPR Consultants to Wordict and later as Wordict-IP. Wordict-IP became a well-known brand, first in the undivided state of Andhra Pradesh over the last few decades. I was a counsel for various companies, including Sierra Atlantic (now Hitachi Consulting), TMC (now Vijay Sales), SIS Infotech (a KPO Firm ), MedRC (now MediSys), Knoah Soft, Mold Tek Packaging, Aditya Birla, etc. Initially, it was difficult to spare time between Wordict-IP and consulting firms, but with time, I could cater to the work and deliver on time.

    4.What kind of challenges did you face during the initial years of establishing your firms, IP Markets, and Wordict-IP?

    I was confronted with substantial challenges during my initial years of practice. The first challenge was the lack of awareness amongst clients who thought filing a trademark or a copyright application was an exercise in futility. 

    The next challenge was to tackle the education of the lower court judges. I taught myself to be patient and develop a positive teaching attitude when dealing with matters before the lower courts. I would make it a point to thank all the judges who would be patient during my arguments and would understand the subject to pass good orders. 

    5.Please tell us about your law firms’ areas of expertise. What were your reasons for establishing separate firms for prosecution work and IP litigation?

    Wordict-IP deals with IP prosecution, including filing, prosecuting, oppositions, and rectifications. The consistent inflow of filing and prosecution work demanded greater attention, and Wordict-IP was able to cater to this by implementing in-house data management and analytical systems to ensure error-free and time-efficient compliances. 

    The management became more accessible when my wife, Sheela Ram Kumar, a software engineer, started helping with the filings. Later, she went on to pursue law at the age of 50. She enrolled herself under Telangana Bar and took complete charge of Wordict-IP. 

    While Wordict-IP catered to the needs of filing and prosecution of IP applications, the necessity to handle IP enforcement was also vital, therefore in 2013, IP Markets was established.

    I established two separate firms to have distinguished areas of operation. However, managing two different firms becomes hectic and demanding sometimes, but never was I put in a situation where I had to forgo one firm for another. 

    6. During your illustrious career spanning over three decades, you have worn many hats in the profession. What does an average day look like for you work-wise?

    I would divide this into three phases. The first was when I joined Mr R. Sashidharan in Chennai. My typical day would start with checking the list of court dates, followed by a brief discussion with my senior. Afterwards, we would rush to the court and in the evening would return to the office and look into drafting or case laws. 

    The second phase began when I joined Mr V.V. Krishna Murthy. I repeated the same practice as in Chennai, except my senior allowed me to argue most cases. He would brief me thoroughly, and I was never found stumbling through the arguments. 

    The third phase of my practice commenced the moment I decided to become independent and established Wordict-IP. My court attendance was cut to a minimum. When IP Markets was founded, it was the first time that my typical day did not have any routine since sometimes my work would start as early as 4 in the morning. 

    7.With various ventures under your expertise, how do you manage to fulfil client expectations and meet deadlines?

    Every client deserves strong advocacy that would defend their cause rather than defend them. Hence, a lawyer should be defending his client and should not be defensive. Every client expects their lawyer to win irrespective of their strength in the case, but a lawyer does not always win. Therefore, protecting a client’s interest to the best of one’s ability and managing a client’s expectations are both crucial. Both my seniors taught me that a lawyer ought to put their best leg forward. However, they should never promise the client a win in their case. 

    I believe that once a lawyer gets defensive, they are bound to lose focus and rationality. Any logical deduction made before a proceeding befalls as pointless if a lawyer does not display their calibre by presenting rationality. I warn all my clients that I can only promise my best performance rather than a win in our favour. An essential part of my practice includes mutual punctuality between the client and myself.   

    8.After filing thousands of patent/copyright/trademark applications, what do you consider to be your most noteworthy contribution?

    There is always more than what meets the eye, and to my delight, Wordict-IP rightfully claimed its facade to my other significant contributions to the IP world. Corporate Social Responsibility is the most undervalued service that a corporation can offer to the world. Every corporation must work on its CSR and aim to maximize its social appendages. Giving back to the IP world is more than a simple act of goodwill. I believe every IP granted adds up to the IP prowess of the country.

    9. In your opinion, is a background in science essential for being a patent lawyer?

    A lawyer should advocate, and that is not inclusive, to understand every minute detail of a client’s invention. But, moreover, I believe that a capable lawyer can develop skills and understand every subject, at least to the extent of arguing their client’s case. 

    A science background might be helpful while drafting a patent application. However, a lawyer who is well briefed and well prepared can handle the matter irrespective of background. 

    10. Through your venture, InnovPath, you have been involved in teaching and training law students and developing IP courses. Kindly elaborate upon the work being done through this venture?

    Innovpath is very close to my heart since teaching is my passion, and I believe knowledge is meant to be used and shared unconditionally. My idea of setting up Innovpath ensued when I was invited to become the expert resource person for Engineering Staff College of India. Innovpath is wholly involved in training, mentoring, and conducting seminars. The tag line “Pathfinders for Innovators’’ lays down the nature of work that Innovpath deals with. My immediate idea when I founded Innovpath was to involve technology in all its grandeur by formulating an innovative teaching and mentoring system. At Innovpath, emphasis is laid on the practical aspects of monetization. 

    11. Comparing your journey as a law student to that of the students today, what significant changes have you noticed?

    My journey as a law student has been comparatively more manageable than that of the students today. With the introduction of National Law schools and the Common Law Admission Test, there is hardly room for students who do not display a passion for law. Diversity in spaces is an ongoing cause, and while there is still a long way to go, there was never a better time for a student than today to dream big. Practical learning spaces gave real meaning to the concept of “true” teaching and learning. 

    However, improved education and educational facilities come at a cost, and law programs today can be financially burdening for parents and law aspirants. 

    12. What are the key traits or skills you look for while hiring a junior?

    I thoroughly believe that this is the only profession where a junior can grow in the shadow of a senior. The relationship between a senior and a junior ought to be highly healthy, transparent, and built on trust. Hiring a junior would entail bringing in someone who will have access to confidential information about your clients. This doesn’t need a walk-on-fire test for the new appointee. However, the juniors need to have the following traits.                                                                             

    1. Hard work and Burning Midnight Oil
    2. Research & Analysis
    3. Perseverance
    4. Creativity thinking Ability
    5. Listening, writing, and public speaking skills. 
    6. Patience

    13. Do you have any parting advice for law students aspiring to make it big in niche areas of law such as IPR or Technology law?

    Initially, multi-dimensional exposure in all branches of law is essential, along with building knowledge in filing procedures. Specialization can be taken up at a later stage. Thus, a lawyer’s life has three steps. 

    Stage 1: No work, no money.

    Stage 2: All work, no money.

    Stage 3: No work, all money.

    Every lawyer has to pass through these stages, and I believe that every lawyer ultimately will succeed in this profession.

    Doing specialization in IPR is rewardable, but other domains like Sports Law, Aerospace Law, or Maritime Insurance and Admiralty Law that the junior lawyers can look to specialize on. I am reminded of the saying of Joan Didion “Do not whine, do not complain, work harder, and you will never get betrayed.”

    Get connected with Ashok Ram Kumar

  • Aashhok Prohit on being a third-generation lawyer, winning a case against Queen’s Counsel and having faith in himself.

    Aashhok Prohit on being a third-generation lawyer, winning a case against Queen’s Counsel and having faith in himself.

    This interview has been published by Isam Kabir and The Super Lawyer team .

    1 How did you choose law? What were the key deciding factors for you?

    I am a third-generation lawyer; I have looked up to my grandfather and father for guidance and wisdom. My grandfather pursued LLM and was a Company Secretary (from the first batch of CS). My father was a Lawyer and Certified Internal Auditor. He was working as a Legal Consultant with many International Companies. He was actively involved in compliance and regulatory requirements of companies interested in setting up their offices overseas. 

    Looking at their vast experience and accompanying my father for his conferences, the law was a natural choice. My work ranged from making notes, helping him in drafting and referring to points discussed in the meeting. While observing their communication, I moulded my analytical thinking from a legal perspective, and I realized that then there is no surrogate for hard work and success.

    My father always asked and taught me to “Carve My Path”. Therefore my initiation into the field of law was an interesting journey in itself.

    Two individuals going through the same school and curriculum will come out equipped with different skill sets. Therefore the fundamental moulding gave me an objective view to analyze cases and set me apart from my other fellow students. This mindset prepared me to deal with anything that came my way. 

    2. Before venturing into law, you had been a science student and earned a degree in Chemistry. However, you also read law as well as pursued Masters in Finance. Can you tell us about the factors that influenced you to pursue these different pathways?

    After my 12th, I was offered to study in a UGC Sponsored program of Chemistry and Industrial Chemistry, a course customized to create entrepreneurs with a science background. This course enhanced my logical evaluation from a scientific and management perspective. 

    After my graduation, I visited an education fair for Universities based in the United Kingdom (UK), where I applied and was later offered a part-scholarship for doing a Masters in Banking and Finance from a prestigious University in the United Kingdom. 

    After completing my graduation and working in the field of Finance, I saw a vacuum in the compliance work being carried out in the legal department. My inner calling for law pulled me to apply for a conversion course into law, and I graduated in the field of law.

    3. Do you believe having foreign education is more glorified on merit than its due?

    I don’t believe that foreign education is glorified; it is the opportunities attached to it which makes it a more lucrative option for students. 

    The courses designed by the international universities require total commitment from the students. Therefore, it is often a requirement for students to stay on-campus during the term, especially when a student is pursuing a Masters degree program. In addition, there are many resources of databases made available to students to enhance their research. This practical based teaching methodology sets the foreign universities apart.

    In my humble view, there is a clear requirement for a more practical based teaching methodology in the Indian education system.

    4.For people who want to work in European and American countries, what would be your advice?

    Firstly the cultural difference in both countries is significant. People who intend to go and work there need to be prepared to adapt themselves to the work-life, work ethics and work culture of western countries. 

    It is often a culture shock for most Indian students and as there is a completely different work environment that makes them uncomfortable. 

    In my experience, the work demands immense commitment and requires a person to constantly update their skill sets to adhere to strict deadlines and deliver results. This is coupled with the pressure that the companies are hugely invested in the individual through their recruitment process.

    I suggest to all aspirants that they should be prepared to shun their comfortable living habits, something which they are used to in India with their family around them. 

    5. How did you decide upon practising litigation after being on the corporate side of work?

    While assisting my father in drafting and due diligence, I actively got involved in dispute resolutions. I realized the Bar was my calling and felt comfortable in making appearances before tribunals. I believed that I could argue as well or even better than some counsels I had witnessed.  

    The current legal system in India possesses provisions in the law that enable the litigants who are below the poverty line (BPL) free government legal aid. In addition, the advocates on the legal aid panels are experienced enough to assist the litigants through the trials. However, I feel that there is a lack of ProBono work, and the leading law firms should participate more proactively in Pro-Bono work. 

    6.You were also a Director at an NGO called Global Vision India Foundation, whose work taught the poor, providing food and education. How did this NGO become a part of your endeavours?

    Whilst pursuing my LLM in criminology, I interacted a lot with the then Head of Law Department of Mumbai University, Dr Ashok Yende Sir. He was a great mentor and a very committed person who wanted to contribute to society. He realized through my work that we shared similar ideologies. So I felt privileged when he asked me to be a part of his NGO and appointed me as the youngest director.

    7.You have fought a landmark case that allowed Asians, especially Indians, to apply for firms in London and the UK. Could you share any insightful details from this matter with our readers?

    To qualify as a solicitor, every law student had to get a training contract in a UK-based law firm. The application had to be submitted, and interviews were conducted two years before the training contract job. 

    Since I was not a British National or a European Economic Area (EEA) National, I was informed that it would be impossible for me to get a training contract. It was uncommon for law firms to recruit a non-EEA National.

    I shared my shock and surprise regarding the discriminatory policy of recruitment by all the law firms and especially the top leading law firm in the UK with my tutors. I explained how it was both essentially and morally wrong.

    Ironically, the country known as the ‘torch-bearer’ against racism was refusing jobs based on race. All the law firms I approached refused to take my case pro bono or professionally, as they felt the recruitment procedure being followed was as per the land law. 

    And no person had every filed such a case to challenge this discrimination policy of recruitment, as even after knowing that it existed they still could not prove it in court. Some experienced advocates from India who had gone to pursue their masters had also accepted this discriminating policy instead of fighting it. I only received negative feedback in regards to challenging the discrimination.

    Finally, I discussed the matter with my father and informed him that “I felt what I was proposing was correct, and therefore I was going to fight an uphill battle with all the leading law firms in the UK.” He was very pleased with my objective evaluation and I got all the moral support from my parents to take on all the law firms single-handedly. 

    I applied for a job in a law firm in the UK for a training contract, and as expected, my application was rejected due to the absence of a work permit. However, I still proceeded and filed the application form in the online application process.

    My application was immediately rejected within minutes of submitting it. Following this, I challenged the top ten 10 law firms in the UK court. 

    It was revealed that my application was graded because there was a court case against the law firm. Before that, all non-EEA National Applicants’ were segregated and automatically rejected. 

    I explained to the courts that it was the employer’s job to spend thousands of pounds in evaluating applicants to objectively prove to the UKBA ( The UK Border Agency) that a work permit should be granted.

    I successfully proved in court that the application and recruitment process must be based entirely on merit. However, that was only on paper. There was an underlying indirect racial discrimination process being followed by all the leading law firms who advised all the big companies to segregate all NON_EEA Applicants applications. 

    I single-handedly won the case as a student against the well known Queen’s Counsel (QC), who was instructed  by some of the leading solicitors and backed by law firms. I put forth my arguments against racial discrimination and how the law firms were misinterpreting the law. The Hon’ble Judge and the respected panellist at Bristol Employment Tribunal passed the judgment in my favour on account of my arguments.

    I successfully defended my victory in the Employment Appellate Tribunal (EAT), London as well. Afterwards, they could either go to the Court of Appeal (CA), London or House of Lords, the UK, which the Law Firms had no intention of pursuing.

    It was a major setback for them since a NON-EEA National Law Student single-handedly defeated them and put them back on the blackboard.

    This ruling has changed the entire recruitment process of UKBA and all the companies in all the fields in the UK.

    8. Why do you think this systemic racism and xenophobia existed, which gave preference to Caucasians and native residents over people of colour? 

    The UKBA believed that only the UK and EEA (European Economic Area) Nationals would be suitable candidates for the job and should be preferred irrespective of merit. 

    The application of a non-EEA National, irrespective of his merit, would only be considered after he has passed all these almost impenetrable hurdles. 

    Interestingly, they made Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) Guidelines for companies. Some law firm partners even authored books as a guideline to follow the recruitment process, which was unfortunately entirely based on their misinterpretation of discriminatory laws and policies.

    However, this position has changed post judgement of my case.

    9. In your portfolio, you have mentioned that ‘fortune favours the bold and prepared minds’, and it’s evident that you have taken many decisions in your career that required courage. What would be your advice to young professionals who are fearful of change?

    If you believe in something right and have done all your research, be prepared to take the right steps. Failure happens only when a person doesn’t try.

    No one will walk you to your destiny. Instead, you will have to cover the journey and create your destiny!

    I have never hesitated to explore and have always considered attending new courses with time. Don’t get carried away by looking at what others are doing. Work on your strengths. When I judge moot court competitions, I make it a point to test students outside their comfort zone, which brings the best out of them. I have built a reputation for testing students and keeping them on their toes, as I have always prepared myself before judging the competition as if I am participating in it. The students feel that they have fought and won the competition as if they have won an actual case in court. 

    It is important to identify your strengths and work on them. If you want to practice litigation, then don’t hesitate to work in the lower courts. I was walking the corridors of the High Court of Bombay, working on some media highlighted matters. However, when someone asked me how the matter eventually ended up in the High Court, I was unaware. So I decided to go and learn the basics of trial by observing trial courts, and it has been a learning experience. 

    Initially, I had a rule that I would never take up work for the money. I used to do it for bare minimum fees and at times free, but with the commitment similar to a well-paying client. These are the things that paid off as it was the experience and exposure I got to deal with matters, and the more favourable orders I got, the more my confidence increased. So the underlying principle is that a person should not hesitate to work.

    The best way to learn is to work in an uncomfortable environment. That teaches a person the most.

    10. How has the pandemic been for you? How have you dealt with it personally and professionally?

    It has been a testing time personally and professionally. However, the things that kept me going are adaptability and family support. 

    The lockdown let me search myself and gave me the time to read, brush up and update my legal knowledge. 

    There have been changes in how the hearings have been conducted in courts, and it has taught me that a person needs to be prepared to incorporate changes in their own life. 

    Most importantly, this lockdown has allowed me to spend more time with my family, especially my daughters. So it has been satisfying on a personal level. 

    11. What has been the biggest risk that has paid off for you or the biggest moment of learning for you in your entire career? 

    Fighting against the top law firms was the biggest risk in itself. If I failed, no law firm in the UK would employ me. 

    I remember that none of the law firms was prepared to take my case professionally or pro bono. However, I got the opportunity to prove them wrong and understand the true meaning of ‘Interpretation of law’. I had a nostalgic moment remembering what my respected late father advised me “Law is not taught in law schools or books of law, but it is a gift of the gap”. 

    12. Lastly, any parting advice to our readers who are exploring the legal field? 

    If you believe in something, work hard towards it and bring the change that you envision!

    Do not shy away from negativity and welcome constructive criticism. This is the only way of self-improvement and being the best version of yourself.

    I have noticed a trend among students being overwhelmed by those from higher-ranked law schools. I’ll suggest that if you have worked hard, have done your research, and then you should only be concerned about giving your best. 

    Never feel pressured and underestimate yourself. Always aim to give it your best. The outcome is not in your control, but the efforts are.

    Get in toutch with Aashhok Prohit

  • Advocate Anurag Chaturvedi B.Sc., LL.B., E.D.P. Trained, Hons. Dip A.S.M., C.C.A.P., Ex. Member-Judge, D.C.D.R.F., Govt. of W.B.

    This interview has been published by Isam Kabir and The Super Lawyer team . The Interview was taken by Raunak Chaturvedi and Ankita Sen

    The  following interview is an excerpt of a conversation with Anurag Chaturvedi

    You chose Law after graduating in science. What motivated you to take Law as a career option?

    In our days, Law was the stream of study which could be pursued only after graduation, unlike Engineering or Medical, which were five-year courses and could have been pursued after completing 12th grade. Law was a three-year course to be pursued after graduation. When I joined the University of Calcutta, I joined Law in the 1st batch of this 5-year course, but by that time, I was already a graduate, by having a B.Sc.

    And as regards joining the course,  In my days, Law was considered a safe stream of study where everyone could pass out. But, at the same time, it was supposed to be a source of income at different levels in the working hierarchy- whether in Courts or outside and in the commercial arena.

    How was your journey as a young advocate? How were your initial days different from budding advocates today? Can you give us three examples of the same?

    My journey as a young Advocate was quite comfortable and encouraging too. In my family, I had my father, Mr K.C. Chaturvedi was an Honorary Magistrate of District Lakhimpur Kheri, U.P., from 1952-1959 and my maternal grandfather, Mr L.N. Chaturvedi as the Sessions Judge of the Balson Princely State and a series of other Advocates in the maternal family. So, I always had something to boast about with me.

    My initial days were different from today’s budding Advocates in so far and so much that we never had Google Baba, and we had to depend on Boi Maa that is ‘Book Auntie’, in Bengali. For any query or rule or reference, we had to meddle with the books and circulars and the law journals, and we had to decide which portion was relevant and which was not. 

    This gave us an evaluating capability and has made us different from today’s budding lawyers. For every small thing, they use the Google search engine and accept the information without any exercise of mind for evaluation of the Law, its rule, and much more. Instead, input is accepted on their face value, outright.

    Today’s lawyer fails to think of the relief immediately. In contrast, we immediately had the vision of striking at the possible relief in the case and drafting our cases to keep the end relief in prayer before the Ld. Courts.

    Today’s lawyers find it difficult to some extent.

    A seminar of Consumer Affairs, with the then Consumer Affairs Minister of West Bengal, Mr Naren Dey.
    A seminar of Consumer Affairs, with the then Consumer Affairs Minister of West Bengal, Mr Naren Dey.

    A seminar of Consumer Affairs, with the then Consumer Affairs Minister of West Bengal, Mr Naren Dey.

    You started school in 1993. What legal formalities do we need to follow if we want to start a school?

    One has to envision the nature and the class of school one wants to start.

    School may be a Kindergarten / Primary / High / Secondary School.

    Permission from the Board under which the school shall be recognized is necessary if it is other than a Kindergarten school. If one wants to have the school run under a Board other than the local State Board, then a No Objection is to be obtained from the local State Board only after which the other Board, like C.B.S.E. or I.C.S.E. shall entertain the application for recognition.

    Teachers appointed should be on the guidelines of the Board to which the school gets affiliated to. The school has to have an internal guideline of rules and regulations for its students and also for its working staff and teachers. The position of a principal is mandatory.  And there are many other formalities and requirements to be fulfilled for running a school.

    How to undergo the transition from being under a senior to becoming an independent practitioner? Can you tell us about three things we need to prepare before starting our independent practice?

    Seniors only talk of their successes and make young lawyers run with a file for obtaining adjournments or filing papers in the court and carrying briefs with the seniors going for appearances in cases.

    To be a successful lawyer, one has to develop writing petitions, drafting cases and marking appearances whenever and wherever becoming possible. This will make them slowly and gradually indispensable to their seniors, who will entrust them with more work and help them grow into independent lawyers soon. To be a successful lawyer, one has to be punctual, hardworking and soft in his approach towards his colleagues. He has to be submissive and should learn to sell his talent along with his tears, which he shall have to swallow time and again to make him shine.

    If someone wants to become a judge in a Consumer Forum, what preparation one needs to have to deliver his duties properly?

    In whichever Court you work and discharge duties as a Judge, you have to have the reading skill and prompt decision-making ability. Because for many petitions coming, before passing the final order, one has to decide on Dias itself. One must have the patience to hear both the parties and should not try to make the third case of his own. 

    How was your experience as an Acting President of a Consumer Forum? Can you tell us about three remarkable instances?

    It has been a remarkable experience. Three of my remarkable stints as the Acting President of the Howrah Forum may be noted as follows-

    1. I looked after the administration of the entire forum and its finances too. And got Pending payments cleared through getting adequate budget sanctioned for our forum in time and gave relief to all service providers by getting their payments pending for more than three years to get released within three months of my taking responsibility. 

    2. Under my pen, I could make working guidelines for my forum.

    3. I enforced punctuality, honesty and timely delivery of orders in my forum, clearing the pending backlog of cases and timely discharge of cases.

    What critical component of this position as a Judge makes the work challenging?

    Awareness of applicable laws and knowledge of any precedents or ruling from the higher courts’ hierarchy. As a Judge, one has to be neutral and must strike a balance between the convenience and the inconvenience of the case parties and ensure that an order is not passed on such impractical terms that it never gets executed.

    How was your transition from being a Judge to becoming an advocate once again, and why did you leave your position as a Judge?

    The transition from a Judge to an Advocate is never a happy journey. When you plead as an Advocate, and you know the relief to be given is not given, you get lowered not only in your own eyes but also before the clients. Unpleasantness in nature grows. 

    Seeing my working capabilities, the West Bengal Government wanted me to go to all those Courts where working needed an overhauling. They started transferring me. I had my responsibilities towards my ailing mother, so I decided not to leave her in her last days. I discontinued putting this fact on record after accepting few transfers.

    You had a dynamic career; how do you summarize it in a few words?

    Experience pays. It builds your confidence and makes you challenge-worthy.

    What is your advice for young advocates who are planning to establish a successful legal practice?

    Aim at Judiciary. It gives you satisfaction in working and the joy of discharging justice honestly.

  • Nishant Choudhary shares his experience being the first Indian lawyer in Myanmar, being recognized as a top 40 EU Business leader and embracing change.

    This interview has been published by Isam Kabir and The Super Lawyer Team. The Interview was taken by Priyanka Cholera.

    Nishant Chaudhary is a partner at DFDL and is also the co-chair of Euro-Cham Myanmar Legal Advocacy Group. Furthermore, he is a board member of the India Myanmar Chamber of Commerce. Mr Chaudhury completed his Masters in Legislative Law from George Washington University (Business & Finance Law) after his Bachelor’s from Symbiosis Law School, Pune. 

    1. You chose to be a lawyer when most people were inclined towards learning science or entrepreneurship. How did this journey happen? 

    I opted for law in 2001, when law as a career started to pick up. So, the law was not wholly an off-beat career. An uncle of mine gave me insights into the legal profession at a family gathering since he was a lawyer, and I thought it was not a bad idea. Initially, I was confused with respect to opting for law, however, gradually during my 5 years programme I started to appreciate the course and enjoy it. 

     2. Could you tell us a little about your time and experience studying at the prestigious George Washington University Law School? What encouraged you to do masters right in the middle of a full-fledged practice? 

     My experience in George Washington was good. Although I don’t want to make a comparative analysis, I hope that schools in India adopt a more practical education system than a theoretical approach. 

     I would generally not recommend taking a masters course right after one’s first degree because it clarifies the legal system and general interpretations. A certain sense develops after you have practised or worked in a law firm or corporate house. After my LLB, I focused on practising litigation civil, constitutional, criminal, and excise matters. While I was in Washington, I deviated from litigation and opted for business and finance laws. I realized that to further accelerate my career I had to diversify and which will likely be a career approach that will last longer. 

    3. Having studied at law schools in India and in the United States, what are some substantial differences in the pedagogical approach among schools in India and schools in the West? 

    I was a graduate of Symbiosis, Pune and the examinations were based on an academic standard. The practical intake was restricted to the fifth year. On the other hand, if you look at the American schools, they have a case-based education system and adopt a more practical way of teaching. Although, I believe now the New York curriculum in the law schools in India is moving towards that approach. 

     For example, In George Washington, there were mock trading sessions. During the anti-money laundering classes, we had a mock investigation session, basis on which we were asked to draft and an indictment. The course of teaching was very different and entertaining. Indian legal education system is very conventional, whereas the West has a more interactive way of teaching. But if education and entertainment go hand in hand, it tends to stay with you more comprehensively. 

    Moreover, the infrastructure is superior in American schools. The professors in reputed schools have several authoritative books to their names. My project finance teacher was a lawyer for OPIC, now known as Development Finance Corporation (DFC).  

    Another difference is the flexibility of choosing different and mix-matched subjects and the possibility of interlibrary access.   

    4. How was your experience before you moved into Banking and Finance Practice, i.e. as an Advocate at the Patna High Court and as a Counsel with Parekh & Co. (Advocates and Attorneys), where you worked on Competition law, Bankruptcy and Tax matters etc. Can you share a few experiences from that time? What is your take on specialization in the early years? 

    It is difficult to practice on the original side if you are unaware of the work at district levels. For young lawyers who will start practising litigation, it would be highly beneficial if they start practising in the District Court, or can even co-practice in both District court and High court at the same time.  

    Mr and Mrs Parekh, along with Mr Kumar and Mr Mohanty were very learned and great mentors. Unlike a regular law firm, Parekh & Co. had a very close-knit working culture. I assisted Mr and Mrs Parekh on the cement cartel matter and ADR, especially in infrastructure-related projects. In addition, I had the opportunity to walk into the chambers of prominent legal faces in India for case briefings, ranging from Mr Harish Salve and Mr Ashok Desai and other reputed lawyers. The experience was very enlightening. 

    5. How did the transition happen to be an In – house at a leading bank, and how did your time as a Senior Manager at ICICI Bank shape you into the Banking and Finance professional you are today? 

    I was a litigator while looking for a job in Banking and Finance. I had to undergo many difficulties in most of my interviews, although my prior experience was appreciated. I was deemed ineligible since I lacked transactional drafting experience. Furthermore, the recruiters provided that I would be a mismatch if given to work with junior associates. It is a misconception that earning a master’s will get you a job. It serves as an academic degree, not a professional degree. Someone suggested that an in-house role will be more appropriate for me, and from there, I could transact back to law firms. I applied for ICICI Bank and was interviewed by Ms Nitu Agarwal, who hired me.

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    Nishant Choudhary

    6. Towards the end of 2014, you made the shift to Myanmar. How did this new role come about in your professional journey? 

    In my professional journey, I kept looking for any opportunity in ASEAN, not particularly Myanmar, but suddenly Myanmar opened up in 2013 and was recognized as the future market. A new market fell from the sky, where everything had to be done from scratch. I wanted to work in ASEAN, which Myanmar was a part of. Therefore I decided to move. I had to undergo a fair share of struggle initially, but it is now as convenient as any other metropolitan city in India with its growth in the last seven years. 

    7.How was your experience of starting life afresh in a foreign country? Were there any challenges that you faced for being a qualified Indian lawyer in a foreign jurisdiction? 

    I was likely the first Indian lawyer to enter Myanmar after it opened up in 2013. It was a completely different culture. My workplace consisted of people from Myanmar, China, the USA, Australia, Italy, the Philippines, Vietnam, Japan, etc.  One aspect of working abroad is that you need to be culturally sensitive, especially towards the locals. For instance, Myanmar is not a template western country and has a robust culture that they take pride in. The sensitivity facilitates a better work experience in a multi-cultural environment. 

    8. You are a member of the Executive Committee at Indo Myanmar Chamber of Commerce and Co-Chair of the EuroCham Myanmar Legal Advocacy Group. Do you take it as your responsibility to make Myanmar more inclusive for foreign legal professionals, mainly Indians and put it on the map as well? 

    I have been in the EuroCham Myanmar Legal Advocacy Group as co-chair for a long time. I work towards advocacy for the EU business in Myanmar, alongside regulators, to make the business efficient. Similarly, I am a part of the India Myanmar Chamber of Commerce. Naturally, being an Indian, there is undoubtedly similar scope there. So, the idea here was to facilitate good business and at the same time not just as a part of India Myanmar Chamber of Commerce or EuroCham, even in general conferences or networking events or in public interactions, I have always highlighted the potentials of Myanmar, and that is because Myanmar deserves it. It has tremendous potential with 53 million people, with abundant natural resources across the country, one of the larger oil and gas deposits in Asia, located between two large Asian economies and the connection of these two large Asian economies to us here. I do take it upon myself to showcase Myanmar for what it is.

    9. Can you tell us a little about your role as a Partner with DFDL? What challenges or responsibilities do you shoulder? 

    DFDL is a great employer, but that also brings about the responsibility of working with DFDL. While working as a partner with DFDL is to gain business for the firm and for the execution part where I am supported by a team. There is a lot of management work where it is essential to harmonize how things are to be achieved. As at the same time, I am also the deputy managing director of the Myanmar Company, so I have a fair share of admin roles as well. Furthermore, I have a role in different chambers where I am not in any position per se but just a member. I am regularly a part of it as well. My role ranges from business development to working on the project, training of the team to the administration of a firm’s entity and then general business community interactions and responsibilities.   

    10. Your extensive practice experience working in Myanmar and India and working on significant financial transactions include the first and one of the largest onshore syndicate financings of Myanmar foreign banks branches and the licensing of one of these branches. Apart from case preparation, how do you keep the morale high for you and your team? 

    I enjoy a blend of things, like business development, because of its challenging nature and how it develops the confidence to deliver. But, at the same time, I enjoy working on a matter with the team, and I am fortunate to have an excellent team.  

      When one works as part of a team and leading it, where issues are discussed openly, the working is efficient. That way, it’s the team’s decision as to what they are going to prefer. I believe in active participation so that my team is aware that I am also working with them. I don’t believe in a hierarchical approach. I think that we are all in it together, yes there has to be a degree of mutual respect amongst people, but it should be more of a casual atmosphere and more of teamwork. I try to be a facilitator because I want to remove the hurdle that my team is facing on a given task to efficiently work forward. 

    11. You have received numerous accolades for your professional achievements, all of which are very well deserved and earned. Of particular note is Top 40 EU India Young Business Leader, 2019, by Europe India Centre for Business & Industry, which you received at the European Parliament, Brussels, Belgium. What do these milestones signify as a lawyer as well as an Indian? 

    These are primarily appreciation of one’s journey in a way that incentivizes the person. But they are also recognitions. For example, on the business or negotiation side of the market, a client will prefer somebody who has a commercial approach and is recognized to be a facilitator of business in the relevant market. Especially the India Europe Business Leader happened because of my involvement in EuroCham Myanmar and assistance of Indian Companies. It was an invitation from the Europe India Centre for Business & Industry (EICBI)  at the Europe India Business Leaders Conference 2019 held at the European Parliament in Brussels, where I was facilitated by Hon Caroline Nagtegaal, who then was the Member of European Parliament – Netherlands & Vice Chair- European Parliament delegation for relations with India. 

    12. When hiring young law graduates, what factors do you take to be non-negotiable?   

    There is no exact template or box for the procedure. Everybody has their journey. A harmonious working attitude is essential for being part of a team and being driven by the teamwork process. There has to be a balance where everybody should get their own space and at the same time be a part of the team. Therefore, attitude is primarily crucial because knowledge is endless. Consequently, I can’t expect a person to know everything under the sun. However, if the person is unaware of the answer to a question, he needs to own up to the fact that he is not aware and is willing to work towards it. Finally, one needs to take ownership of the work. The client doesn’t pay a lawyer to tell them what they can’t do, but to guide them on how they can do it.  

    13. Do you have any advice for young lawyers, law students, etc., who are trying to make a career in Myanmar, Vietnam, Laos, and other jurisdictions in the South East Asia region which are booming grounds for legal talent? 

    Southeast Asian countries are the market of the future. It is essential to keep reading about these markets and see how the business trend is moving. These locations are highly remunerative. The career path is faster compared to a bigger market due to less competition. But there are also challenges like language barriers and cultural elements.

    14. Finally, any parting words of advice for our ambitious readers? 

    It should be remembered that opportunity comes to everybody but not at the same time. Therefore, instead of being disheartened, one should work on their career goal and be focused. 

    GET IN TOUCH WITH NISHANT CHOUDHARY

  • Sameena Jahangir, Partner at Kochhar and Co, shares her experience of working on Deal, entrepreneurship and hard work is the best formula for success.

    This interview has been published by Isam Kabir and The Super Lawyer Team. The Interview was taken by Priyanka Cholera.

    1. There are various acclaimed roles credited to your name, be it a law firm partner, startup founder or mentor. Which of these resonate with you the most?

     I wear different hats, but my core function is to improve myself and learn throughout the journey. The identity of a lawyer resonates with me the most. Even if I had all the money in the world and the luxury of not working, I’d still want to practice law since it’s something that I am passionate about. Law has also allowed me to teach and mentor people. 

    2.What motivated you to pursue law as a career?

    I had strayed from the law after my 10th and pursued science for 2 years with a misconception that I would become a doctor, but I realised early on in my journey that it wasn’t my cup of tea. I was entirely consumed and fascinated by law from the very first day. I come from a family of lawyers. My mother worked for a brief period as a lawyer dealing with insurance and accidental tribunal matters. At the same time, my father was a criminal lawyer, because of which the conversations in the household always circled law. My brother is an academician and teaches corporate, securities and tax laws to professional students. l I discovered a new perspective on the law when I interned at Desai & Diwanji with senior partner Aslesha Gowarikar. 

    3.Could you share with us any experience of discrimination based on your gender or any other trait, if any? 

    There is a lot of bigotry that surrounds women. The way I dress, talk and or carry/groom myself is very westernised and modern. It’s not uncommon for women to be told that they have reached a position because of the way they talk,  look and dress. I have also faced discrimination where I was denied rental houses to reside in due to my religion. There is a lot of bias in society still very prevalent even in developed metro cities which a lot of people have to face on a daily basis, be it, religion, gender, colour or caste.   I firmly believe that playing the victim card doesn’t help anyone. One has to do their part and if there is anything wrong happening not only against you but even to someone else, stand up and speak that’s the only way we can see change. Just keep working and have the results back their merit.  

    Sameena Jahangir Partner at Kochhar and Co

    Partner at Kochhar and Co

    4.Post your LLB, and while acquiring your Company Secretary (CS) from ICSI, you were a full time Articled Associate at Desai & Diwanji. How did you manage your time for your education when your legal career was in its budding stage?

    I started my CS at an early stage. I had already started preparing for it when I was doing law. I allocated any free time towards studying for it. I did not believe in studying long hours. Instead, I indulged in quality studying. I had no social life then because I directed all my focus on studying. As a result, I was both a lawyer and CS. My corporate work helped me to understand CS subjects better. 

    5. In 2019, you co-authored a book called “GOODS AND SERVICE TAX: No masterpiece was ever created by a Lazy Artist.”. Please share with us a little about the writing process. 

    I teach income tax, and I’ve always wanted to publish a book. We’ve previously written textbooks for our students, but a book is a whole other ballgame. So when the legislation for GST was passed, my brother and I decided to publish a book on it after studying the nuances. The aim was to create a useful book for CA/CFA students as well as professionals who need to work on taxes.

    Sameena Jahangir Partner at Kochhar and Co

    6.How did Lex-Sign – e signing portal materialise in 2021? Was entrepreneurship always on the checklist? 

    I have always been zealous about entrepreneurship. When I became a lawyer and started working at Desai & Diwanji, I visited startup seminars on weekends. I loved the environment revolving around discussions of ideas and business. Entrepreneurs offer new-age solutions to the management of problems. During the pandemic, I noticed that most of my clients had problems regarding the execution of documents, procurement of stamp papers, access to documents stored in their offices when personal meetings were impossible.  With the shut down of the trains, access to the office became very difficult. The idea of Lex-Sign came to my mind where we offer to provide easy digitisation of documents so that work can go on seamlessly. It’s a digitally encrypted platform for online signing, digital signing, Aadhar number based signing and procurement of stamp paper from across the country. The confidentiality of the customers is valued and protected. We rolled out this new venture with this mindset, and we’ve gotten a positive response this far. 

    7.What inspired you to move towards a more tech-savvy culture? 

    As part of the WFH culture, we realised the importance of being tech-savvy and digitalised in all aspects of our life. Therefore, it is essential to move to an online platform even for documentation to utilise the force of digitalisation fully. Most of my clients were facing this issue; therefore, something needed to be done about it. As a corporate lawyer, I understood the intricacies of privacy and data privacy laws and hence Lex Sign became a one-stop solution for e documentation.

    8.What steps are you taking to ensure that the process is simplified for anyone who is not tech-friendly or adaptive?

    For Lex-Sign, we arranged for almost no human interface requirement to carry out documentation. If someone needed to execute a document, they can simply go on the LEx Sign portal, order a stamp paper, upload the pdf document and then sign it without needing someone to handhold them through the process. 

    9.A year after joining Kochar & Co. as a senior associate, you were elevated to partnership in the shortest time. How did this transition occur?

    In Kochar, I joined as a senior associate, and within four months, I became a principal associate there. During the pandemic in September 2020, I was made a partner. The journey was very fast-paced, and the firm felt the necessity for a change in my designation. The promotions may seem fast-paced but it is the result of the 11 years  I have put into my career. 

    Sameena Jahangir Partner at Kochhar and Co

    10.You were the core council of advisors for Fincity in their acquisition by MasterCard in 2020, which was part of “Deals of the Year’ by India Business Law Journal. Attending such matters must be different from your other projects. How did you prepare to tackle this mega-deal?

    I was very fortunate to be a part of this said deal which was into the Fintech space. Like most deals, it involved long hours of work and some days felt longer than the others but I always kept a solution-oriented mindset. As a team leader, the most important thing is to not push down the agony and stress on your team members or the lower verticals. The mere role of a mentor or leader is to take control of situations when things fall apart and to accept accountability while cheering everyone else for success. I always tell people to take needed breaks, not to get burn out. That’s the only way one can perform consistently in the long run.

    I believe that in the whole scheme of things, legal advice is merely one segment. One needs to understand the issue holistically from their client’s perspective without sticking to the only nuances of the legality involved but go beyond that into the commercial aspects as well.

    11.Jahangir Tutorials was founded by you, where the mission is to impart education for ambitious CS students. Your enterprise has also achieved considerable feats like your students securing AIR 1 AIR 2 and AIR 3 examinations. Jahangir Tutorials also has a youtube channel where you upload your lectures. Has Jahangir Tutorials evolved their pedagogical approach with time? How well-received and appreciated was the response to this endeavour? 

    At Jahangir Tutorials, subjects for the Company secretary exams are taught for all levels. In the Pre-pandemic period, physical classes were conducted, and anyone with access to it could join us. With the onset of Covid, a change was made to make Jahangir Tutorials accessible to everyone by uploading our lectures online on Youtube. We received a positive response and today we are the fastest-growing CS digital class in India. This is also because we value the time of others and keep our lectures crisp and apt. We received appreciation for our online videos from people all across India and how they helped them with their preparations for CS exams. Teaching is the most fulfilling job because you get a direct stake in creating the leaders of tomorrow. 

    12.Lastly, any words to the wise?

    In my professional journey, I have learnt that there is no substitute for hard work. There is no luck or coincidences but pure results of one’s merit. Don’t let go of the focus at any point. There is no shortcut to being rich either: it’s a simple swap of service for money. However, I always believe that the ultimate important quality to possess is to make sure you’re a better person than you were yesterday. You can be the best lawyer and know the best application of your knowledge, but if you’re not kind and lack empathy, you gain nothing at the end of the day. Speak well always and use your knowledge and communication to do good for others. 

    Get in touch with Sameena Jahangir

  • Harpreet Singh Hora shares his experience of being an engineer turned lawyer, student politics and changing fates through PILs.

    This interview has been published by Isam Kabir and The Super Lawyer Team. The Interview was taken by Priyanka Cholera.

    (1) Having pursued a Bachelor’s Degree in Computer Science from LPU, what motivated you to switch streams and pursue law at Delhi University?

    I passed CLAT in 2011 when I got in touch with the current LawSikho management team, which ran a CLATHacker platform back then. However, due to financial restraints and my family’s wish, I pursued Engineering instead and later opted for a three year LLB degree from Delhi University. As far as the reason is concerned, I have always been intrigued by the field of law. I believe that this is a dynamic profession that gives you excellent learning opportunities. Moreover, this profession accentuates your personality, and that’s what perpetually kept me devoted to it.

    (2) During your graduation from Delhi University, you worked as a quiz master at LPU. Later you’ve also provided your services on similar lines at DAV College and MMU Mullana, Ambala. You also occupied the Hot Seat opposite Amitabh Bachchan in Kaun Banega Crorepati, Season 9. What is it about quizzing that interests you so much?

    I was majorly introduced to the culture of quizzing during my school days and then continued it during my college days, both inter and intra college. I participated in a quiz competition organized with the Association of Indian Universities (AIU) in my engineering college, where students from different universities competed at the zonal and national levels. Eventually, I qualified for the nationals. After that, I began conducting quizzes for my hostel and my department in engineering, and from there, the students from other universities and colleges began inviting me to their institutions. So the journey from being a quizzer to a quiz master has been a fascinating one.

    I had been a hot seat contestant in KBC in 2017. It was one of the most memorable experiences in my life.

    Harpreet Singh Hora

    (3) How has your time at Delhi University shaped you as a person? You contested in the elections for the post of General Secretary as a youth leader. How did you happen to join politics?

    Everybody in Delhi University is interested in contesting elections, directly or indirectly, and I was no exception. When I first stepped into the law faculty, before I could see the board where the college’s name was written, I saw posters of students interested in contesting elections. And Delhi University elections were a big deal on the news channels. I discovered that the people in reputed higher political positions in Delhi are associated with student politics at Delhi University, which intrigued me. It was one of the best decisions I have taken because it ultimately helped me network and establish better connections with people active in the Political circles. The university seniors always said that the Delhi University elections teach you a lot, and I agree.  

    Contesting elections in law school, i.e., the University of Delhi law college, is one of the most challenging contests. The University features politics on two different levels, one on the college campus level where the political parties are not officially involved, and the other is at the university level, where parties directly back up the student organizations. In the faculty of law, the students participate at both levels in politics. Most of the faculty of law students are prior students of the Delhi University (during their graduation). They have already experienced student politics for three years at the base level, but it was alien. In my experience, the elections were indeed complex and demanding, but the challenges had taught me indispensable lessons. 

    (4) One thing that sets you apart from other first-gen lawyers is you have dived right into PIL work while most people chase settling and big clients. Was this a conscious choice?

    The issues I have generally dealt with and the case laws that are a part of my research primarily concern the aspects of prison reforms, social justice, and the 1984 Anti Sikh Genocide victims. However, that does not limit my work to PIL as I have my own Pan India practice in criminal law, service law, matrimonial law, and writing. Although, I have always believed that society needs improvement or the system requiring some restructuring. Thereby I have focused on petitions that deal with social justice or public interest. As far as we have noticed, young lawyers are generally more concerned about acquiring potential clients and earning their remuneration, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. In conclusion, the positive attribute of this profession is that one can directly contribute to the system’s development and align the same with their professional capabilities. 

    (5) You started your practice as an assistant to Zoheb Hussain, Senior Standing Counsel of Income Tax Department, Delhi High Court. What value did this experience add?

     Working under Zoheb Hussain has been an absolute pleasure. He is a hard-working man, and I am sure he will soon reach new heights in the industry! I did not have prior knowledge about tax law, and neither was I acquainted with commerce. However, the interview mainly focused on our personality and the type of lawyer we aspired to be, rather than focusing on whether we know about the subject. He aimed to make us more responsible as junior associates with a different approach. First, when we received a file from the client, from the receipt of that file to the disposal of the case, everything was responsible for one associate. Secondly, he also gave us the autonomy to monitor the whole case on a micro-level, which involved the responsibility to abide by the dates and timelines. 

    If a petition was drafted, he did not just make corrections and send it back to us; instead, he called us in his office, and he would begin live editing that petition in front of us. l After pointing out the mistakes, he gently; explained the format, the methods and everything that was to be taken care of. Thereby subconsciously, one starts picking up those habits; and would often refrain from repeating the same mistakes. I had noticed that once associates completed their tenure at his office, they had improved as lawyers.

    (6) A good mentor makes a good mentor. Do you also consciously choose to do that for your juniors or your interns, let them see your formatting and styling live in front of you and make sure that you also have the same aura or demeanour as your junior? What do you look for when you hire someone?

    I am still in the learning phase. I try to be with my colleagues. Eventually, all of us are learners. From a recruiter’s point of view, my primary focus during an interview is to know if the interviewee can understand the concepts. Secondly, I judge the knowledge of the candidates based on their CVs. I will not ask the interviewee a random question on constitutional law or criminal law. The academic score in those subjects does not matter to me. However, If the person has written a research paper, they would have to explain it. It also gives me the idea that the individual has learnt through that activity and was not a mere co-worker who got the name published in somebody else’s research.

    (7) You represented the NGO- Justice for Rights in the PIL seeking regulations, licensing, and guidelines on Internet platforms, including Netflix and Amazon Prime Video platforms. How is it like standing in front of the most prominent players in the game?

    As a young lawyer, these types of cases do come off as an opportunity for one to learn, and it hardly matters if a favourable judgment is received or not. The clients, back then, were students and could not find a resolution to the case. I felt that it was a thrilling matter and took this as a great learning opportunity. I was also curious to know about the possibility of any platform that broadcasts audiovisuals on your mobile phone or laptops and if one can go ahead without regulation. On the first day of the argument of this case, the judge had completely bashed me. I believe that it was my fault as a lawyer since I could not convey the point. The honourable bench remarked that if the Censor Board Certification did not have an issue, I did not have the authority to object. Then it struck me a gap between what I was trying to say and what the bench had understood. I then pointed out that they are not even supposed to carry a Censor board certificate. I even attached the RTI, where the ministry provided that they do not have specific regulations on that, and I had an intense exchange of argument with the judge. After this, the bench was half convinced. They had sought a reply from the ministry. Eventually, it came out from the ministry that this is a new phenomenon, and they do not have such regulations which they have asked for on these platforms. We fought the case and brought it to a logical end, but ultimately it got dismissed by the Delhi High Court.

    The students back then were in a dilemma about going behind for an SLP or not and questioned the chances of it succeeding. I believed it looked like a good case and that there was a probability of the conveyance of my point to the Supreme Court that wasn’t conveyed to the bench earlier. And fortunately, they decided to take the case forward. Ultimately, the Supreme Court was convinced to notice the case, and the SLP was admitted. So although the matter is still pending in the Supreme Court, there have been impacts.

    (8) You appeared on behalf of the Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Management Committee to secure the students’ right to the Sikh community to wear Articles of Faith- The Five Ks in the NEET examination. Can you tell us about that experience and case?

    The topics related to the case of these five articles of faith in Sikhism are inherently close to me because I have read in-depth about the history of Sikhs of securing their right to wear a turban starting from the Mughal’s era, to the time of the British Colonisation, to the post-independence phase. Any development of legislation in India, specifically in the respective regions, impacts the legislation in different parts of the world. Back in the 1970s, the right to wear a turban while riding a motorcycle was a major controversial issue in England’s Road Traffic Act. The right to wear a kara, the right to wear a kirpan has been most talked about in different countries and recently, like 10 or 15 days ago, there has been an unfortunate incident in New South Wales, Australia. They are now drawing on some legislation and guidelines on the right to wear kirpan by schools or college students. So this has been a topic that I believe still needs to be researched upon, to include more legislation concerning these topics. These are the grey areas that are often brushed aside. Indeed it was a great experience working on such a case. On the other hand, a phenomenal incident that occurred was that a favourable order was passed just three days before the exam, which eventually changed the fate of the course when I was representing the case for Sikh students.

    (9) You are also working for the up-gradation of facilities in jail and reforms in prison. Can you share the timeline of this journey and how close you are to achieving what you set out to achieve?

    I’ve started working for prison reform. That is a system I always believed needed to be looked into with profound research. But, unfortunately, even after 74 years of Independence, we still follow those archaic prison rules and manuals.

    The issue began when an inmate did not receive adequate physiotherapy facilities in the prison. This was followed by two other cases, where one concerned the assault on inmates and in the other, the fight was for all the inmates respectively. These petitions got clubbed, the local commissioner appointed by the Court took a survey of those prisons and suggested improvements in the petition. we even challenged the discrimination between prisoners’ facilities when the high-security ward prisoners had alleged discrimination in terms of facilities against the facilities provided to the general ward prisoners

    IN another case, an executive order was petitioned against, where the prisoners held under a particular act would not be allowed to conduct mulaqat (meeting) with anyone but their blood relation. The case is pending in the Delhi High Court. I believe there needs to be a great deal of improvement in the prison area. Ironically, if we do not take action right now, it may become a full-fledged practice area in the coming time.

    (10) In what ways has the ongoing pandemic affected your practice? Do you have any suggestions for maintaining one’s mental health, mainly due to the workload that comes with being a lawyer?

     The biggest challenge the young lawyers face is the hiring freeze by law chambers. With the decrease in workload, the chambers are cutting down associates instead of hiring new ones. As a result, many lawyers have relinquished their chambers or offices and have shifted back to their hometowns. They claim that there is hardly any inflow of new clients, and when necessary, the cases can be conducted through video conferencing. As for me, being a workaholic, the dip in the workload has indeed started affecting my mental health.

    Therefore, I would advise all my colleagues to adapt to new technology and the new methods the Court and the authorities are coming up with. I can claim with absolute surety that the technology in law is here to stay. I believe it should remain. Although video conference has its challenges, it has also opened up new doors of opportunities for young lawyers. Furthermore, we need to explore new ways to use this technology to improve our financial status and acquire more work. Presently we have witnessed clients being more inclined towards engaging lawyers who they believe can represent your entrust appropriately in the Court, irrespective of their experience in terms of practice in a number of years. 

    As for keeping oneself sane, it is advisable to use this time to learn the things one has always wished to know or pursue a hobby.

    (11) If given a chance, what would be one piece of advice you would give to first-gen lawyers and law students about beating the odds?

    My advice to everybody alike is to have a clear goal; The sooner you have clarity in what you want to do, the better. The second is to consider achieving that goal, and it would help if you had a good plan coupled with a realistic timeline. Never compare your success with somebody else’s. Some people have struggled in this covid period, and some rose high during this pandemic. Focus on your own goal, even if you think you are lagging. Each person has the time to rise and shine on one’s own accord.

    Reach out to Harpreet Singh Hora

  • Abhinav Bhalaik, Partner at Algo Legal shares his view on founding law firms, working with startups and serendipity.

    This interview has been published by Isam Kabir and The Super Lawyer Team. The Interview was taken by Priyanka Cholera.

    1. What pushed/led you to pursue a career in the legal field? 

    For me, it was more of an accident than anything else. I was playing professional sport so it was a tossup between carrying on with that or maybe doing something in academics. I was almost slated to study economics at Delhi University and I had written a few law school exams. Back in the day, we had individual exams for law schools instead of the CLAT. When I got into NLU Jodhpur and was also on the waitlist at NALSAR, someone told me that it makes more sense to do something professionally and if you’re really passionate about economics, there would be plenty of opportunities later. We had a double honours option at law school, so I majored in economics and law.   That’s how law school happened and one thing led to another.

    2. Please tell us about your experience at NLU Jodhpur. Few people know that your batch was one of the first five batches to graduate; can you tell us how your alma mater contributed to your success in your formative years?

    I look back to my law school days very fondly. It was challenging back then but when you’re younger you have a lot of energy and you can rough it out. Initially, we never had a hostel to live in within the campus of the law school. I remember we were staying in a guest-house in the city which was actually a lot of fun because there were no hostel restrictions, so we could go out, explore the city and sleep late. It was challenging in a lot of ways; from our first moot court participation to our first moot court win as a university, setting up the editorial board and setting up various committees. At the same time, we had Dr Mitra, who had set up NLS and then joined NLU Jodhpur. He was a stickler for academics and inculcated in us a stringent academic discipline. However, he was extremely student-friendly and supported us in whatever we wanted to do. So, we never felt the paucity of funds. But I think it was a very collegiate working environment between the faculty-led by Dr Mitra and all of us. 

    3. It is also known to us that you were offered a Training Contract at Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer, a leading Magic Circle law firm. Could you tell us a little more about the opportunity and what were the factors that helped you bag this job?

    Back then we were applying to some of the United Kingdom-based firms. Being one of the initial batches you have to figure things out yourself. I went through the interview process and got selected. In fact, I was even slated to go and start my training contract. But it was during the time when the global financial crisis happened due to which most UK law firm training contracts were delayed. But that’s also when I had the opportunity to meet my first partner who I worked under.  He was formerly a Freshfields attorney and had just returned to India to set up Platinum Partners. So, I guess,  things just have a way of playing out. 

    4. Your first job after graduation was with Platinum Partners. Did you find yourself in a similar situation as 2020 graduates, given that 2009 was a period of recession as well?

    My graduation batch was an exceptional one. I have batchmates who are IAS and IFS officers and also a lot of us today are partners in leading law firms across India. So, academically it was a very sound batch and most of us had worked very hard and had extensive internship experience. The people we met during our internships realised that recession or no recession, we were a bunch of students who are hardworking and maybe fairly capable. So, a lot of us got good opportunities despite the recession, but there was a fair number that did not. Once the economy started getting better, although a lot of them started out at places where they ideally wouldn’t have wanted to, because they were good at what they were doing- hardworking as well as resilient, they all landed up where they wanted to be in some years. 

    5. Please tell us about your role and responsibilities at Platinum Partners, especially being part of the firm in the initial years?

    I think I was very fortunate to have started out in a small team. And being a part of the initial bunch of lawyers, your level of exposure and the level of training is at a different level. I ended up working with someone who had more than twenty years of experience than I did. So the learning is huge and you are also challenging yourself every day. Also, I was fortunate because my first partner was a very nice person and a very hard taskmaster. He focused on training us and developing us as lawyers. And by default in a smaller organisation, you have responsibilities. Whether it is bringing together a library, interviewing students in law schools for internships or fresher associates, or even handling business development. So you do have a lot of exposure on the non-client side of things. Also on the client-side of things, you are thrown in the deep end much sooner and though you have a senior looking after you, you are told that you have to swim by yourself.

    6. In 2017 you moved to Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas & Co. What were the new responsibilities that you took on as a partner? How did your journey so far prepare you for this?

    I was not made a partner directly. There was a three to four-month period during which I was as an of-counsel. So, the way I worked at Platinum and the way I work today, I don’t personally believe too much in designations. All law firms have a designation to make people feel good about themselves. I think your growth as a lawyer and as a professional depends on the level of responsibility you can take as you go about with your work. So after five or six or seven years if one is competent, well trained and can take responsibility, whether you are a principal associate or an associate, it is all just a nomenclature. My training and experience were a lot better than the one that you get at larger firms because in bigger law firms you are initially lost all over the place and you’re mostly working with seniors who are at best three or four years more experienced than you. So I think it was the technical and non-technical training that I received at Platinum Partners which did wonders for me. And as I said, if you are ready to become a Partner, you don’t have to be called a PA or a SA beforehand to become a Partner. If given the choice, to go back and redo, I would never pick a big firm to start out with because the quantum of learning is way better in smaller ones. So, I would always pick a small firm to work with and a good senior to learn under. And I think that is the absolute key.

    7. After almost 4 years at Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas, you moved to AlgoLegal as a Partner. What is your vision for Algo Legal, in terms of services and team building? 

    Seeing  Platinum Partners being set up from scratch, I witnessed the entrepreneurial side of a lawyer. I was very clear that at some point in time I would do something on my own. I  come from a business family so for me maybe things sit very differently. After I resigned from SAM, I was in the middle of figuring out what I wanted to do and that’s when we started talking with the few like-minded people who were in a very similar space in life. They were accomplished professionals and legal practitioners who were looking for a different challenge and we’re very focused on value addition to clients along with the use of technology in a big way. And fortunately for me, I had known some of them very closely and had worked with them in my earlier organisations. So things just sort of came together and that’s how it all started with Algo.

    8. How has the ongoing pandemic served as a turning point in the M & A sector and law firm work culture? Do you believe law firms can adapt to work from home for the long haul?

    I do believe that we will see a slightly modified working model. People have realised that we can do a fair bit of work not being in the office every day, but at the same time there is a big merit of being in office too, especially for young lawyers, because the training that you can have in an office environment is very different from what you can have on zoom calls. I think we’ll move towards a hybrid model. The pandemic has been challenging and people are going through a lot. But at the same time clients have been very accommodating. Although times have been difficult and challenging, we’ve seen people being extremely supportive. So I’m very thankful to my colleagues and clients. I think we have all stuck together.
    We are witnessing a lot of M&A activities so the difficult part is executing so much work sitting at home. I have witnessed a fair amount of consolidation happening and when I say consolidation, I mean a lot of the smaller players are selling out to the larger players. So there is a lot of market consolidation taking place and that’s when M&A activity becomes fairly robust. 

    9. AlgoLegal has a particular focus on startups and in furtherance of that, has a free legal kit with important resources and documents. How do you think the Covid – 19 pandemics have shaped the business environment for such startups? The tech industry is seeing a boom; is this really a silver lining in the dark clouds?

    At Algo, we have initiatives where we work with young founders who don’t have a lot of cash or resources. We do a lot of pro bono work. I think we are the only firm in India that is using tech the way we do. We did a very interesting series with NUJS where we were teaching technology and law as a credit course. So we try to do whatever we can. We believe that tech is going to be a big part of law firms going forward. 
    To answer the second question, it hundred per cent has. I would not want to call it a silver lining because a lot of people have suffered. But it has definitely given a spur to technology. It has put tech-forward by at least half a decade. And the toolkit is because we work with a fair number of founders and young people and we realise that while we charge our professional fees, it’s a small gesture on our part as a  way of giving back to the community which has supported us a lot.

    10. How do you feel about most startups suffering immense losses and raising humongous capital in the funding series; is it about being a unicorn? What is your take on it?

    I think there are two models. There is the model that Zerodha has followed, where they have hardly raised any funds from investors. The other model is where people have taken a lot of funding. So I think the model where you take a lot of funding and become a unicorn, what the real aim is to hit a certain volume of sales. And to hit that volume you need to burn cash.  I think everybody is banking on the fact that when you hit those economies of scale your profitability starts becoming better. Because what happens is that your cost beyond a point doesn’t balloon. So to take any company to a level where the economies of scale are keeping in, you need to have substantial funding. You need revenue so, you need to burn cash and to burn cash you need to receive money from investors and the moment you receive that money your valuation changes. And I think a lot of them are eyeing the IPO market because they intend to raise a huge quantum of funds from the public markets. What I will say is that it’s still early days in India. Ten years before, people wrote off these startups. I have been in conversation with people who said, “What is this Zomato? What is this Swiggy?” They made fun of these ventures. But I think the world is changing and it has played a big part in where these startups have reached. So it is a wait-and-watch, but I am very interested to see where it all lands up. 

    11. How has the pandemic that entailed lockdown impacted you personally and professionally?

    Other than battling the virus personally and at home, it has not been too bad. It’s disheartening to see the number of people who have suffered personal losses. Beyond a point, you can’t even blame the government but I think that there has been a systematic failure and many deaths could have been prevented. We have lost some very capable people in the legal fraternity as well. So that’s sad and makes you think about what more one can do. At our firm, we are working on initiatives for our people where we can make them more comfortable; we make sure that topics like mental health are discussed, spoken about and not shoved under the carpet. 

    12. Any parting advice to law students and young lawyers on building a successful career in corporate law and how important are ethics in this professional pursuit?

    The only advice I will give people is that you can listen to as many people talking about their experiences, but at the end of the day, do what works for you. Read my interview but, at the end of the day, there will be things that will work for you and don’t rely on any particular person’s experience. I think everyone’s life experiences are different and every person speaks for himself. Unfortunately, most people want their life experiences and advice to be held up very high but, I don’t really believe in that. My only advice is that if you like something, go for it and you will learn along the way. 

  • Dr.Kabir Duggal on working as an Arbitrator in the US, being a Harvard-Oxford-Leiden-NYU scholar and being an inspiration to thousands.

    This interview has been published by Isam Kabir and The Super Lawyer Team. The Interview was taken by Priyanka Cholera.

    Dr Kabir Duggal is a Senior International Arbitration Advisor in Arnold and Porter’s New York office focusing on international investment arbitration, international commercial arbitration, and public international law matters, He is a graduate of the University of Mumbai (Gold Medal), University of Oxford (DHL-Times of India Scholar), NYU School of Law (Hauser Global Scholar), Leiden Law School (2018 CEPANI Academic Prize), and is currently pursuing an SJD Degree from Harvard Law School.

    1. Your accolades and achievements are known to the world, the career trajectory you have witnessed is one everyone dreams of but only a few achieve apart from all these. What is something the media or the world at large doesn’t know about you?

    I am delighted to be here. And very grateful for the kind words. I think two things that people don’t realise, and this is true for everybody, is that we need to be a little more sensitive and give ourselves a little more of a break. Second, there is a lot of hard/smart work behind the scenes but there is going to be a fair bit of failures. For every ten things you do, nine times the answers will be a ‘NO’ but the tenth answer might be a yes! So, you need to keep trying. Keep the good fight on! 

    Further, you need a little bit of the right time and right place and so we must not take for granted the opportunities. In India, in particular, there is so much talent. You need the opportunity to channel it and that sometimes is not fully within your control. But always try and grab opportunities whenever you can.  CaRPE dIEM.

    2. Let’s start from the beginning: why law out all the career choices available?

    I got into law, unlike a lot of people today. Most people today get into law right after high school. I did not. I did the three-year course after I had an undergraduate degree. The decision to enter law was not one that I had taken lightly. This is what I encourage everyone to do: think about your skill set, think about things that make you happy and try to find a career that combines both of these. So I realised that I like speaking, debating, writing and I thought that that skill set fills itself nicely with the legal profession. When I got into law school, I realised – this is fun! 

    3.In your academic trajectory, right from GLC to Harvard, routing through NALSAR, NYU, Oxford, Leiden, you have been denoted as a scholar, rightfully so, what about academia or research kept you going?

    As noted above, my decision to get into the law was a conscious choice. So I got into something I enjoyed, I mean no one is compelling me to do all this. I do it because I enjoy the process–getting to read things that are fun, getting to talk to people who are very smart. Different people can look at the same thing very differently. I think in Jain philosophy, it is the Anekantavada philosophy, where the same thing can be understood in so many different ways. I do feel particularly privileged to have been affiliated with some of the best universities and study with the best minds. 

    4. How has your experience before venturing into arbitration i.e as Judicial Clerk, Honorable Justice Sujata Manohar, Consultant, Development Research Group – At The World Bank Group, Legal Consultant To The Child Protection Unit – Unicef has shaped you and can you share an experience or two?

    Justice Sujata Manohar is a pioneer, a truly remarkable person. She was able to study law at a time when women did not have equal opportunities (and this is true all over the world). She became a Supreme Court Judge but her humanity and compassion made her stand out. I look at her as a mentor and a role model even today. And if I can become half the person that she is, I will consider that a success. 

    My interest when I got into higher education was in the areas of public international law and in human rights. And that’s where UNICEF and the World Bank came in. And both of them were very different but very amazing experiences which are really hard to come by. You really do feel quite privileged to have had those opportunities. UNICEF began as an unpaid internship. It started off that way and became a two and a half year stint. In fact, they invited me to come back after my masters at Oxford and before I started at NYU.  

    While I was at NYU, the World Bank Group offered me a consultancy and that is how that position happened.  Again another fascinating experience. 

     They were very different areas of law. One was looking at child rights and child protection while the other was looking at socio-economic rights in the developing world. This experience has been pretty remarkable because it exposed me to a wide range of areas within international law. 

    5. One of the most interesting observations we have noticed is you have kept human rights in the centre of your academics, what inspired the shift to arbitration? 

    My interest has always been in public international law.  International arbitration, particularly investor-state arbitration, allows me to pursue my interest in public international law and human rights because the cases often involve an intersection between several areas of public international law.  But, my interest in human rights still continues. I am part of a team that has created a global non-profit to increase access for arbitration lawyers from all over the world (https://letsgetrealarbitration.org/) and I work as a consultant for the UN office for Least Developed Countries. 

    6. How has your time at Curtis, Mallet-Prevost, Colt and Mosle LLP, Baker McKenzie, honed you in the arbitrator you’re today?

    It’s been a very exciting journey to work on some of the largest and most prominent disputes. Every firm has a different culture. Every firm has a different way of looking at things. In the investor-state context, in particular, some firms focus more on state work, some focus more on investor work, some do a hybrid of both. So getting exposed to different people, different ways of doing things, I think challenges you and helps you appreciate things in a variety of different ways. Indeed, you can get very comfortable doing the same thing the same way every day. I think having something to challenge you helps you learn a different skill, a different way of doing things.

    Undertaking training for the Government of Myanmar

    7. Can you tell us about your PhD thesis on Investor-State Arbitration at Harvard as well as Leiden?

    Investor-State Arbitrations, sometimes you call Investment Arbitration, is a specialised form of International Arbitration. This is arbitration between a foreign investor and a sovereign state. Your Respondent is always going to be a Country or a State and the Claimant is a foreign investor. Here the foreign investor alleges violations of international law that often arise out of investment treaties or (domestic) foreign investment laws. And the dispute is resolved before an arbitral tribunal. Some examples in India are like Vodafone which brought its case against India arising out of a tax measure. This was under the UK-India investment agreement. That would be one example. These are cases against the sovereign so by nature, they tend to be highly political and long-drawn. It’s a lot of fun but there is a lot at stake. 

    At Leiden, my focus was on evidentiary standards in investor-state arbitration. This is a fascinating topic because international arbitration seeks to avoid detailed rules of procedure and evidence.  However, a tribunal is still bound by certain evidentiary rules.  The process was to identify what principles of evidence could be derived from the general practice of states and from public international law that would bind tribunals.  I was very privileged to receive the Academic Prize from the Belgian Arbitration Center for my research.

    My current research at Harvard looks at the intersection of human rights law and investor-state arbitration. Investment disputes often tend to implicate human rights.  For example, an investor may allege that a state policy implicates the right to fair and equitable treatment but the state may seek to justify its actions on human rights considerations.  My research seeks to unpack this tension between investor protection and human rights. 

    The Leiden Defense
    The image is following the Leiden Defense

    8. You have been teaching at Columbia for nearly a decade now, and have taught at Madrid, Georgetown University, India, Harvard to name a few that pulled you towards it as given your qualifications you could have easily taken a corporate job or started practising given that you are qualified to practice in New York (U.S.), Washington D.C. (U.S.), England & Wales (Solicitor), Maharashtra and Goa (India)?

    I have always wanted to teach. As of this year, I have completed twelve years of teaching. Indeed, when I had started some of the students at Columbia University were older than I was. I enjoy it. It is something that I enjoy. I am a big believer in people doing things that make them happy. If something makes you happy, go for it. 

    9. You are a part of the Rising Arbitrators executive board, Consultant for the United Nations Office of the High Representative for Least Developed Countries, Landlocked Developing Countries and Small Island Developing States (UN-OHRLLS), you have published over 40 articles and spoken at over 300 arbitration events across the globe, what inspires these endeavours?

    Thank you, All these are things that are fun, I enjoy them. I like writing, speaking, and meeting new people. When you do something you enjoy, it does not seem like work. Some of these activities are also opportunities to make a difference and so I feel particularly privileged to have the opportunity to do so.

    Undertaking a Government Training with Representatives from Saudi Arabia (which is my country of birth)

    10. You started your journey as a law student in 2001, in GLC you have been part of this fraternity for 20 years now. What has changed for you in this passage of time?

    When I went to law school there was only one national law school.  NALSAR & NUJS had started and they still hadn’t had even the first set of students who had graduated. If we look at the legal landscape in India today it is very competitive. With the proliferation of law schools and people with ambition, it is a rather different reality. 

    Indeed, when I was in law school,  there was some amount of stigma in studying law- “You can’t do anything. So, you’re doing the law.” So, I think that would be the biggest change. There’s a lot more dynamism. The law students are a lot more dynamic and are a lot more willing to be enterprising and that’s a good thing. We are seeing the market evolve as well– for example, we are seeing greater think-tanks, non-profits, academic avenues in India. All this is great for our profession. When I graduated, legal education was still in the nascent stages. I look at it now though, you have people who are very thoughtful scholars today; people who are really engaged. That’s good for India at large. The profession is in better shape than when I was in it. So I look at it as a good thing. It’s becoming quite similar to the American model- very competitive, but the people who get into big law, so to speak, have a very steady career path set for them.

    11. How often have you been the only Indian in the room? Do you think silent racism towards Indians or Asians still persists or they’re still underrepresented in board rooms and classes?

    I think this is a great question and is worth addressing. Does racism exist? The answer is yes. Does racism exist against Indians in the law field in the west? I think the answer to that is also yes. It may not always be direct or overt but it does exist. If we look at the United States, Indian Americans have done extremely well in business, science, technology, engineering. That has still not been the case for the legal profession. But hopefully, things will change and we should always strive to do two things. First, we should always be aware of the privileged position that we are in and we should try, whenever we see bad things happening, to stop it. We’re lawyers and we are in a privileged position to stand up to injustice. There are people who don’t have that, both in India and in the US, and it’s important for us to stand up for injustice (this can often be taking a stand against innocuous sexist or offensive stereotypes). The second point I would just mention is, last year in the US (although this is not unique to just the US), you looked at violence against African Americans and then Asian Americans, which really got us to reflect on the inequities that exist even in our profession. We, therefore, launched an initiative called REAL- Racial Equality Arbitration Lawyers and one of our goals there is to advocate and give access opportunities to people who otherwise don’t get it. We give a lot of scholarships to attend arbitration events which can often be very expensive. I would encourage the viewers to look at this if they’re interested in arbitration, these are put on our LinkedIn Page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/real-racial-equality-for-arbitration-lawyers.  We are free to join the organization so if you are interested, consider signing up.

    12. What are a few pieces of advice you’d like to give to students or lawyers who want to pursue foreign education through scholarships?

    First, You need to start the planning process early. There will be an academic component and there will be an extracurricular component, both are important. Make sure you’re not doing one at the cost of the other. Sometimes you see people who have done like 15 moots, leadership positions in many organizations but grades are mediocre or you see people who’ve only focused on grades and done nothing else. So my suggestion is to find a good balance. 

    Second, have a nice consistent narrative to tell. Can your narrative change? Yes, it can. Tell it in a manner that’s interesting, that’s personable, but reflect a little bit on your story. 

    Third, pay particular attention to scholarships and see the requirements that they have as well as the deadlines. 

    Fourth, access your financial situation and make an individual assessment of whether or not it makes sense for them to pursue higher education if you have to take out a loan. Be prepared for the best and worst-case situation. Jobs outside India are few and far between and highly competitive.

    Finally, consider the visa reality. This is probably one of the areas that are not within your control. This is increasingly becoming harder and harder, as countries are restricting immigration. So when you’re doing your pros and cons, you really need to factor in this reality.

    13. It is known to us that apart from Hindi and English, you are fond of Urdu and have learned Spanish and Sanskrit as well, what are some of your favourite reads?

    I think with time my interest has been becoming greater and greater in reading books on history. And my specific focus, not exclusive, but the specific focus has been on reading about different aspects of Indian history. When you don’t live in India this is one way to remain connected with your heritage. I am currently reading the Age of Wrath by Abraham Early that discusses medieval India (even though the book focuses on the Delhi Sultanate there is a very interesting discussion on the Vijayanagara empire as well). 

    14. In your opinion, how will pandemic change the way we perceive education? Do you think it has achieved the philosophy of the world being a big classroom?

    The pandemic has definitely caused a lot of suffering. I will acknowledge that at the outset. Having said that, some good things have come out of it. And one good thing that has come out has been embracing technology. There is something to be said for in-person meetings but there’s something to be said for having opportunities like this where you can talk to people across time zones, across different countries. So, hopefully, post-pandemic, we keep some of this alive. The world has become a lot closer.  

    15. How does it feel to be a source of inspiration for so many people? 

    I am very grateful to hear this and am touched that people feel inspired.  I believe that my journey has still just only started 🙂 

    16. What would be your parting advice to students and everyone dares to dream big?

    Have a plan and go for it. Dream big and also be realistic. But there’s nothing wrong with aspiring. Take advantage of avenues around you. Avenues like Law Sikho didn’t exist when I was in Law School. Take advantage and be positive, failures will happen and that’s fine. To quote Kelly Clarkson- ‘What doesn’t kill you, probably makes you stronger. Therefore, take charge of your career.  

  • Vandana Pai, Partner, Bharucha & Partners, on LLM from Columbia Law School, New York and her 18+ years of experience in Private Equity

    This interview has been published by Ayush Verma.

    Can you walk us through your journey towards the legal field? What inspired you to read law?

    I come from a family of doctors and engineers, and no one in my family had previously studied law. As part of career counselling at my school we were given aptitude tests, and law was identified as one of the professions’ I had an aptitude for. I have always loved to read, and two of my favourite fictional characters growing up were Perry Mason and Horace Rumpole, both formidable criminal defense attorneys. My parents always encouraged me to think for myself, and were supportive when I decided to pursue law. I sat for the National Law School, Bangalore entrance exam, and as they say the rest is history. 

    You’ve graduated and acquired your LLM and LLB from two of the most decorated universities. How did they aid you in becoming the lawyer that you are today?

    My experience at both National Law School, Bangalore and Columbia Law School, New York have helped me become the lawyer I am today. At both institutions, the learning experiences are not limited to the classroom. The student body is amazingly bright and engaged and pushes you to achieve your best. NLS gave me the opportunity to participate in moots, write articles and experience different facets of law through internships. This helped me to identify that my interest lay in corporate law, rather than litigation. At CLS, I loved interacting with people from multiple countries and backgrounds. The level of intellectual rigor the professors brought to every class was an eye opener and taught me to think outside the box. 

    15 years after acquiring your degree in LLM, do you believe academic qualifications or excellence play an important role for a blooming legal career?  

    I believe that as long as there is a will to succeed, each and every one of us can have a blooming legal career. Hard work and intellectual rigour are more important than mere academic qualifications. However, Columbia Law School is known for its expertise in commercial laws, and many of the professors are partners in New York law firms. The LLM helped me hone my commercial acumen, and develop soft skills, which have proved invaluable while interacting with clients and counterparties from around the world.

    Can you walk us through a typical day for you at Bharucha & Partners as a partner at the firm? 

    I am an early riser and am usually at my desk by 8:30 am. I spend the 1st hour responding to emails, and taking a status update on the various matters and transactions which I supervise. Post that the day is usually spent attending calls and meetings, in negotiations, and reviewing documents for clients. I try to spend some time reading up on changes to existing laws, important judgments, etc as it is critical we stay abreast with the rapidly changing regulations. Each day brings its own challenges and wins, and I can definitely say work is never boring. 

    Right after your graduation from law school, you were placed with a tier one law firm. What kind of activities or internships did you pursue during your law school days to land such an offer? 

    I did a 6 week internship with Amarchand Mangaldas in my final year of law school and received a pre-placement offer at the end of the internship. Prior to this, I had interned with a number of law firms, including doing an internship with Drew & Napier, Singapore. I also had good grades through law school, which helped secure the internship at Amarchand Mangaldas. I was fortunate to get an opportunity to work with a couple of partners at Amarchand Mangaldas during that internship. I have always believed that if you try your best and do your work sincerely, your work will speak for you. The partners were happy with my work, and made me a PPO. 

    You’ve also cleared the New York State Bar exam. How did you prepare for that and how is it different from the India Bar Exam?

    When I graduated, the requirement of taking the bar exam in India was not in force and we could enroll on the basis of our law degree. Consequently, I can’t comment on the difference between the 2 exams. However, I must say that studying for the New York Bar Exam was an exercise in discipline, and the skills I picked up then have stood me in good stead throughout my years of practice. 

    While there are a number of popular bar review courses, these courses are expensive. I signed up as a student volunteer for the Pieper Bar Review, which required me to operate their shop at Columbia Law School a few hours every week during the school year, so I could take their course for free. I found the Pieper focus on Mnemonics, and style of teaching incredibly helpful. In addition to taking the course, it took 12 hour days of intensive studying for nearly 3 months to get me over the line. 

    You’re also on the Advisory Board for Cuddles Foundation since 2014. The Foundation provides assistance to pediatric cancer patients. What inspired you to associate yourself with this specific organisation? 

    I have always believed it is important to give back to the society at large, in whatever capacity that I can, whether legal or otherwise. I actively engage with multiple NGOs, including the Cuddles Foundation, an NGO working on providing nutritional assistance to paediatric cancer patients making it the first and only Indian NGO working in the sector. 

    When I 1st met Purnota, who heads Cuddles, she mentioned how they have realized that many children don’t survive treatment because they are malnourished. Further, many children aren’t able to continue treatment since they are often from rural areas, and their parents have no way of earning a livelihood in the city. Often the family is reduced to poverty bearing the treatment costs, and aren’t able to feed their other children. The passion that Purnota and the entire Cuddles team bring to their work struck a chord with me, and caused me to decide to work with them. 

    Their commitment was especially inspiring during the pandemic. They were faced with the challenge of ensuring that the frontline healthcare workers, who were exposed to significant risk of contracting the infection, were protected while ensuring that their work was not hampered. They had to figure out new ways to stay in touch with the patients who could no longer visit hospitals. They needed to ensure the ration baskets and supplements reached the patients and their families, when supplies chains were disrupted. While challenging, it was also extremely satisfying working with them to navigate the rapidly changing legal and commercial scenarios created by the pandemic, and ensuring that their people and interests were protected.

    You’ve worked with giants like RIL, SIDBI, Tata Opportunities Fund. Is there a specific approach you undertake while working with them?  

    For me, the role of a successful lawyer is not restricted only to attaining a positive outcome for the client, but also involves coming to an all-encompassing arrangement that strengthens the client’s current position and does not compromise with their future engagement with the other parties or affected persons. A transactional lawyer needs to find solutions to problems and not create legal bottlenecks. It is important to build trust with your clients, to truly understand their needs and concerns or needs, to empathise and connect with them, and build a long-lasting relationship. 

    Private Equity and Venture Capitals deployed $47.5 billion in Indian companies, making 2020 a record year for the ecosystem. How has the PE or VC work been affected by the ongoing pandemic and what does the future hold for the industry?

    While 2020 was a record year for the ecosystem, it saw a number of high value deals but fewer mid and small investments. In 2020, many of PE/ VCs focused on stabilizing their portfolio companies but are now looking at new opportunities. The pandemic has disproportionately affected some sectors, and benefited others. We are seeing this in the deal activity also where healthcare and online services have seen an uptick in investment. PE/ VC investors have accumulated huge cash piles, and with corrections in valuations brought about by the pandemic and liquidity crush, these investors are well placed to capitalize on opportunities in the market. 

    Lastly, would you like to share any parting advice with our readers?

    Many junior lawyers seem to believe their legal degree has only equipped them to either be litigators or corporate counsel. They aren’t happy, but don’t feel they have options. However, the opportunities available are so much more – setting up a start-up providing innovative legal solutions, a career in research and policy, consulting, teaching, civil service, etc. I would like to end with a quote, “Everybody has a calling. Your real job in life is to figure out why you are here and get about the business of doing it…”

    What do you see as the role of technology in the practice of law?

    I believe technology and artificial intelligence has the power to disrupt the way we practice law, and all lawyers should not just track, but actively evaluate how they can adopt and implement technology in their work. Technology can also provide exciting opportunities to do something new with the law. In 2020, my Firm participated in the FT Innovative Lawyers Hackathon, organised by Global Legal Hackathon and FT innovative Lawyers programme. The hackathon’s goal was to find answers to the most pressing legal, regulatory and civil society challenges emerging from the Covid-19 crisis, and over 184 projects were submitted with really innovative solutions.