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  • Deepa Kuruvilla, Founding Partner, Qwinlaw Legal, on experience with the JAG, the Indian Army, litigation at Bombay HC and work in Securities

    Deepa Kuruvilla, Founding Partner, Qwinlaw Legal, on experience with the JAG, the Indian Army, litigation at Bombay HC and work in Securities

    Deepa grew up in a traditional Kerala Christian family, studied at the Ernakulam Law College, under Mahatma Gandhi University, graduated in 1993 and started practicing at the Kerala Trial Court. She later appeared for JAG and worked with the Indian army for five years. She was also a part of the gender discrimination case filed by the Army nurses. After her experience with the Army, she pursued her independent practice at the Mumbai High Court and has been a panellist for SEBI before Securities Appellate Tribunal. Off late she has started her own law firm with the name Qwinlaw Legal.

    In this interview she talks about:

    • Pursuing her dreams and be where her calling is.
    • Taking up JAG and the application procedure.
    • Setting up her own independent practice and being a panellist with SEBI.
    • Establishing her own law firm – Qwinlaw Legal.

     

    Please tell us a bit about yourself.

    I am a consummate Legal professional with a high say do attitude who likes to meet new people and possibly try to translate the meeting into business opportunity. I am interested in willing to learn and sync present to the future. I see myself as a smart working Lawyer than a hard working Lawyer whose goal is to find opportunities in helping people who avoid litigation than fighting lengthy litigation for them.

    One can see in me a perfect blend of a daughter, sister, mother, a wife, a village girl, a legal professional, a tough army officer, a budding entrepreneur in legal industry. I enjoyed each role in its sanctity and have always done things away from my own comfort Zone!

     

    How has your pre-college life been like? What were your ambitions before joining college?

    I was born in a very traditional Kerala Christian family and lived and grown up in a small village called Mannoor 30 Km Away from Kochi Airport, in the plains of the pictorial perfect Kerala in a house closer to extensive paddy fields, Butterflies and flowers were my friends! Dancing around the coconut trees and painting were my hobbies! Putting legs in to the flowing streams near the paddy field and watching fishes playing with my leg and enjoying the sweetness of the westerly wind blowing from the paddy field were the most interesting thing to pass time.

    That was a world without Television sets, TV came to neighbouring house after PT USHA participated in Olympics. Most loving friends were paternal grant parents on weekdays and maternal grandparents on holidays.

    Dr. V Paulose (Mom’s Dad) was the only doctor in that Village. So, people adored the super powerful man. Dad’s dad was a hard-core farmer who had lots of bullocks and cows and hens and big courtyards in both the houses to play around, both grandmothers were beautiful and graceful, but ministers of the house, my dad, mom and I always adored, they had a good relations with all their siblings and cousins so we enjoyed the company of lots of relatives and cousins always. This was my childhood.

     

    Was pursuing law always your professional calling?

    Smart Advocates arguing in the court, were very attractive when seen in movies. Legal topics discussion always attracted me. My dad was Dy. Director in the Revenue Department (Survey & Land Record’s) of Kerala, legal topics were subject matter of discussions at home. I knew that my inclination is more towards Economics and Law than any other subjects.

    When I saw myself as a professional, I always found me as a smart lawyer, helping people to avoid litigation, advising Companies, than entering into lengthy litigation.

     

    How was your law school experience at Mahatma Gandhi University?

    Law College, Ernakulam, under Mahatma Gandhi University, where I studied was a very famous college due to the senior lots who became Central and State level Ministers and High Court Judges. It had ahuge Library, where I spent most of my time there reading Case laws and interpretations of 1800’s.

     

    Please tell us about your experience with regard to your first few sessions in Kerala High Court. Has it become more difficult for a fresher to achieve success?

    I worked under Adv. PM Thomas, and was entrusted mostly trial court matters in smaller courts. I used to read and prepare matters before the case presentations or trial, and if I had doubts, I used to clarify the same with my seniors in the office. I enjoyed my work,

    If a fresher observes the successful seniors attending court and the methodology they adopt very closely and learn their presentation skills, and if he or she spends time studying the court matter they handle, I think it is not difficult for him/her to achieve success. The key element is home work and the ability to control the shivers passes through the spine seeing senior Advocates in the court room standing against you. Your knowledge in the subject matter and equanimity helps you to become a David in front of Goliaths, that’s my experience.

     

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    What motivated you to apply for JAG?

    Udan, TV serial which came in Door Darshan in Junior College days attracted me very much, seeing a village girl becoming Police officer and entering man’s world! I placed myself in that character and wanted to be in that spectrum in real,

    When I was in 4th year law, the first entry into Indian Army by women happened,a pet project envisioned by Yesteryears Prime Minister Late Indira Gandhi, I was so thrilled hearing about that, Employment Exchange Newspapers were the only source those days to get to know about such opportunities, I kept a watch and applied, with full desire & prayers but no iota of hope, as being competing with the smarter girls from whole of India, with my minimal village back ground. But God’s Grace I got selected.

     

    What is the application procedure for JAG?

    Whenever there is opening, Indian Army publishes the requirement on their website, and the methods of entry is described, one has to follow the application procedures,

    The process which was in my case was as follows:

    • The first level of selection was at SSB- (Services Selection Board)in May 1995, a written test for aptitude on the first day screening, if passed stay for another 4 days of test. (Who failed will leave )
    • 4 days continuous testing –different psychological and physical test at various levels
    • one who passes the test, will stay for the medical test, rest will leave,
    • Once pass medical test , will be called for training
    • Training at Officers training Academy, Madras for Combat training , which lasted for 6 months , Passed out from OTA Madras ( March 1996)
    • Appointment at JAG’s Branch , Head Quarters ,Northern Command as first lady officer in that office and undergone court martial training under supervision of senior officers for six months
    • Young Officers specialisation course for Military Law at Institute of Military law near Nagpur, for 4 months ,
    • Re-joined JAG”S NCHQ again, This qualified to be a JAG officer to exercise duties of an Independent JAG Officer

     

    What role does the JAG officer play in the Indian Army? Does the work ever get monotonous?

    JAG officer does Court Martial of wrong doers who are subject to Military Laws. Each case was unique and the Military law is stricter than the civil law, due to the nature of the exigencies of the service; it can never be monotonous.

    Moreover, the tenure in the Army is very challenging and enjoyed the attention I got. There was a charisma of being one among the first lot of lady officers of Indian Army, which made the heads turn to see the lady officer in Uniform! This attracted media attentions many times, manyof whom I met were seeing a lady officer for the first time! The attentions led to a style and attitude of myown, helped me to maintain perfect equanimity and a humble personality, though the toughness and charm of Army Officer was well ingrained.

     

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    What were the responsibilities you were entrusted withwhile working as a Deputy Assistant Judge Advocate General –DAJAG (Rank- Captain), officer In Charge Army Legal Cell in Mumbai?

    Army Area Legal Cells of Indian Army defend legal cases filed against Indian Army in that particular Army Area. I took charge of Legal Cell, Mumbai, when it is set up in 1997 as first officer, and the job was to set it up to a full-fledged legal office and defending the ongoing cases against Indian army M&G Area.I was working closely with Ministry of Law,, Assistant Solicitor General of India and Central Govt. Panel Counsels in defending such cases , this included the appearance on behalf of Indian Army before Commission under Justice B.N. Sri Krishna investigating into Mumbai Riots 1993 which attracted lot of media attention.

     

    Why did you decide to litigate at the Mumbai High Court after working in the Indian Army for about five years? What were the other opportunities you were considering?

    I took release from the Indian Army after 5 years of mandatory services with Indian Army and started practising in various Courts in Mumbai along with my husband who was a practising lawyer and already had a set- up his office in Mumbai, I was focused, didn’t consider any other opportunity.

    Among many cases I appeared in the Mumbai High Court in the Army nurses uniform case filed for the rights of Army nurses made to wear the same uniform as male army officers, a case against gender discrimination. This attracted lot of media attention.

    I later got empanelled as SEBI panel Lawyer and appeared cases on behalf of SEBI in Securities Appellate Tribunal (2003-2005).

     

    What was the role of mentors in your case? How important do you think a mentor is in the field of litigation?

    Mentor is required for life, not just about litigation alone! I was lucky that God sendtough task masters as mentors in my life.

    First and the most long standing mentor in my life is my Dad! And my Mom his perfect Assistant who supported me all throughout my crazy adventures and wishes and gave me the self-confidence. I am still amazed how they trusted me in all my moves when everything I wanted was unconventional in the small village I belonged to. A girl becoming a practising lawyer- not so great; joined Army – the wildest crazy thing, one can think about a girl who is at the age right for an arranged marriage in my place.

    One example of my dad’s support: when I couldn’t take the rigorous Army Combat Training in OTA, I called my dad asking him to take me out from the OTA by paying penalty to the government for leaving the training incomplete (those days it was per day Rs. 4000/- accrued to number of days spend in the academy), some girls were already left by this method so I had hope, I lured him saying it will be high cost later on, easy to take me out now as it is less cost, he said I will take you out from the academy, if you are the last person to go out from the academy by paying lakhs, you don’t worry about thousands! He said , It was your well thought decision and you should know how to stand by your decision, you will only have choice to be successful, I will not accept failures in my house! He reminded me this while fixing stars on my shoulders on the day of passing out parade.

    My Career begin with my senior Advocate Mr. PM Thomas, as my mentor: – he gave me opportunity to argue important cases in the first year of practise itself even when the opposing counsels were very senior in the legal profession; when the pressure used to build up, and if I complain, he used to smile and ask, “so what”! ; it kept me going and many time successful! This gave a lot of Confidence!

    My Mentor to start practise in Mumbai Courts was my husband , under whom I practised law , a hard task master ,and a very intelligent lawyer, his clients vouch for it , he never used to spare me in the office , eventually I used to take revenge at home , still I was never spared !. He taught me practical wisdom and sensitivities regarding the business of practising law in a big city

    These 3 mentors of life made me my own mentor for the rest of the life.

     

    What are the requisite soft skills which are essential for a young lawyer to build a successful career?

    The Quest for Learning!, Humility, the ability to understand the ‘advice’ and ‘delivery’ the client require from you,A perfect Equanimity! Even while dealing with pressure while tough arguments, Success will be a bi-product even in adverse situation!

     

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    How did you develop interest in these areas of law? Please tell us about your core areas of practice.

    (During Deepa’s five years of independent practice, she has handled matters on Domestic and International Securities Law, Military law and also dealt with matters on Banking and Finance Law and Arbitration.)

    This is an evolution happened based on the matters handled during independent practise with my husband; Interest developed because of the intention to deliver the best result; Analysed the subject matter and spend time in learning the specific subjects and put in the best of the effort , so the end results came successful. My interest in investing in Stock Market and the help of brother practising in Securities law was a great boost.

    The core Area what I am interested among other faculty of Law right now is Capital Market Laws.

     

    What should a law graduate do in his first year of graduation to establish a career in Securities and Capital Markets Law?

    This area is highly corporatized by big law firms, it is better to join one of such law firms and develop skills and learn Capital Market Laws ; However one need to understand the dynamics of the functions of the Capital Markets and its intermediaries to understand the complexities of Capital Market laws . These laws are very dynamic in amendments and the regulators are amending the laws to support the functionality of the capital Market in its practical applications and to keep it in a perfect balance with the Macro economic objectives, so it’s important to understand the users of this law than Law on a standalone basis.

     

    What is the reason behind pursuing certificate courses? Was it a professional requirement to enhance more in your career?

    (Deepa has taken courses on Stock Market, Mergers & Acquisitions, Technical Analysis Bombay Stock Exchange Training Institute and also pursued Certification in Investment Compliance from Securities & Investment Institutes, London, United Kingdom)

    I was a visiting Faculty to ITM- Institute of Financial Markets, Navi Mumbai to teach MBA students Securities law in the year 2007. In that process I not only taught students Securities law, but also simplified Securities law to myself, teaching forced me to read those subjects I generally do not dealt with for the purpose of Career. As I said earlier, thesecourses I attended were some of my learning efforts of the subjects I dealt with and it is continuing. Latest is that I am a student of Diploma in Entrepreneurship Administration and Business Laws by NUJS & iPleaders.

     

    What kind of responsibilities were you entrusted with at the organizations you worked? How different was the work environment of these two companies? How would you describe your experience in brief?

    (Deepa has worked with two organizations – B& K Securities India Pvt. Ltd. as a Legal Manager and Monterosa TSS as their Vice President of Legal & Compliance in Mumbai before moving to Qwinlaw Legal & Compliances.)

    Working with B& K Securities was the first experience for working in a Corporate office, the prime responsibility was to set up their UK Office with regulatory approvals from FSA, London Successfully set it up and made it up and running and supported the compliance functions; The other functions was to oversee the compliances of their international offices in Singapore and US.

    The role in MTSS was for Legal Due Diligence support for their clients investing into Indian Market via Venture Capital, Private Equity and FDI.

    Both experiences were enriching and helped me in continuous learning as there is lot of complex regulatory compliances to follow and lot of business negotiations to do; which also require hands on legal support.

     

    What does your current work profile at Qwinlaw consists of? How is a typical workday like?

    Qwinlaw is my own Law Firm. This firm specialised in Legal & Compliances function to Support the clients who invest into Indian Companies and help them to comply with India laws and ongoing regulatory filings; Support clients to assess and manage the legal risk andgive solutions to structure the business to litigation free as much as possible; there is no typical work day for own business, Delivery at the earliest is the Goal.

     

    How has your journey been from a fresher to being an expert concentrating on FDIs in to India and Securities and Capital Market laws?

    There was no straight line path, I have managed diversified levels in the legalCareer.However I always had an ability to find where the business is, which suited me and also trendy in the Market;I have always put an effort to learn the core subjects which translated into a level of knowledge which can make me confident for what I deal with;

     

    When you hire lawyers, what kind of skills and profile do you look for? Are the attributes different for working lawyers and fresh graduates?

    If I feel the candidate demonstrate an ability to perform and have an attitude to improve constantly, who can complement and support me in my work, he or she will be the right candidate.

     

    Do you offer internships at Qwinlaw Legal?

    So far not! It’s a start-up, long way to go.

     

    What would be your advice to young law students? Whether they should join a firm or practice at bar? How should they approach the legal career?

    Law student should identify themselves, where do they fit in to excel personally, that should be the choice! Both Firm and Bar have their own charm!

    Career in Law is a process of continuous learning, one should be ready for hard work and learn the practical applications than focusing only on the theoretical knowledge. This will help to build up the client trust in you and you will be able to advice/ deliver results correctly.

     

  • Sajan Poovayya, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court and Karnataka HC, on Poovayya&Co., managing a firm, higher studies, and litigation

    Sajan Poovayya, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court and Karnataka HC, on Poovayya&Co., managing a firm, higher studies, and litigation

    Sajan Poovayya is a graduate of the 1996 batch of NLSIU, Bangalore. Thereafter, he went on to finish his LL.M. from LSE by 2000. Sajan took the plunge and started up with a law firm Poovayya & Co. right after graduation from NLSIU. After 18 years of looking after the growth and developing the firm Sajan quit his role of Managing Partner in 2012 after being appointed as a Senior Advocate. A former Additional Advocate General for Karnataka he has also served as the Chairman of Karnataka State Council, and the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI).

    In this interview, he talks to us about:

    • Experience as a student at NLSIU
    • Foreign masters, internships and meetings
    • Setting up a firm after college and taking charge of its expansion and development
    • Experience as the Additional Advocate General for Karnataka and Senior Advocate in the Supreme Court
    • Advice to those wanting to set up their own litigation practice

     

    What influenced you to choose law as your profession?

    Although my father is a lawyer and his court room advocacy inspired me early in life, I aspired to become a neurosurgeon, as medicine fascinated and continues to fascinate me. During my 12th standard (second year Pre-University Course as it was then known in Karnataka), I had devoted considerable time for preparation to sit the medical entrance exam. It was in the latter half of my 12th standard that I was brain washed by my father, not so much to consider law as a profession, but to consider the National Law School at Bangalore as an institution to study at.

    My father was inspired by the wonderful work done by Dr. N.R. Madhava Menon, the founder director of National Law School and he used every bit of that to convince me to sit the National Law School of India University (NLSIU) entrance exam. My elder brother was already a student at NLSIU, having entered the institution inthe school’s first batch of students. At that time, NLSIU had no campus or infrastructure facilities whatsoever and operated literally out of a few sheds in the City’s Central College campus. Despite these odds, Dr.Menon had pulled a rabbit out of the hat by building an institution which, by the end of the 1980s, had gained considerable popularity.

    During my occasional visits to the Law School to meet my brother, I had seen Dr. Menon in action. His approach was to deal with every situation hands on and decisively. I was tremendously influenced simply by watching Dr. Menon in action. Clearly, my father’s brain washing skills and Dr. Menon’s personal aura influenced me to choose NLSIU over any medical school. I sat the exam and secured admission. Once in, confusion in my mind remained for some time, but it took me little less than sixty days during the first trimester to realize that law is the profession for me. Love for the law, although not instant, was strongand I must say has remained stable.

     

    Please tell us a bit about your father’s practice and your initial exposure to law.

    My father has had and continues to have an extremely positive influence on me. He continues to be a very active trial lawyer at Coorg despite completing 55 years at the Bar. He is a very soft spoken person but is voracious and vigorous in court. I would, as a high school student in Coorg, accompany my father to the District Court during school vacations. Many a time, I accompanied him in what he did; as his driver, clerk, stenographer, and at times, simply as his chaperon. His court room advocacy certainly inspired me and many others.

    Although a high school student, I would be tasked with transcribing plaints, completing paraphernalia in dockets to make them ready for filing, etc., which exposed me to the practice of law in the mofussil courts. Law was not abstract to me anymore. I realized that I liked what I saw. My early interest in the law was certainly instilled and inspired by my father’s practice, though I continued to aspire to be a doctor until I saw Dr. Menon in action, building NLSIU.

     

    How was life as a law student at NLSIU? What was the University’s role in shaping you into the individual you are today?

    For me, life as a student at NLSIU was fantastic in every sense of the term. I owe every bit of what I am today to the Law School. When I entered NLSIU it may not have had infrastructure but it certainly had attitude. It had built a culture of academic excellence, healthy but not intense competition, and above all, a holistic approach to the study of law. It is the inter-disciplinary approach to legal education that enamoured me the most. NLSIU did not just induct me into legal studies but also shaped my character and changed my personality completely. I had the benefit of having a wonderful group of teachers at NLSIU and each one greatly influenced and motivated me. I continue to thank them at the end of each day for what they have done to me.

    My peers at NLSIU influenced me even more. They completely changed my personality from being an introvert to becoming not only an extrovert but a fighter too. I found everything that I needed at NLSIU; academic excellence, personality development, strong sense of right and wrong, and above all, true love. I have spent the last 24 years with Sanjanthi, my best friend and wife, who I would possibly have never met but for NLSIU.

     

    Many believe graduates from an NLU have it easier in kick-starting a legal career. How truthful is this belief? Does it make any difference to one’s litigation practice?

    It is a myth that a graduate from a National Law University will find it easier to kick start a legal career. Another astounding myth is that graduates from NLUs are always better than graduates from other law colleges. Extraordinary jewels of the legal profession have emanated and continue to emanate from local law colleges. At the same time, not all graduates from NLUs make a mark in the profession.

    I firmly believe that while institutions can equip you for your journey and provide you with good shoes, what you achieve is not dependent upon the shoes you wear but the steps you take. Being a graduate from an NLU certainly helps inasmuch as NLUs do instil an analytical approach to the study of law and a greater degree of capacity to undertake legal research. To that extent, I believe, it will make some difference in one’s litigation practice, but only that far and no further. If one has to excel as a litigator, one should continue to be determined, to provide his or her best to each brief that comes his or her way. Each brief is akin to a step for you to achieve a higher threshold in the legal profession. It is for you to take those steps, firmly and evenly, lest you trip.

     

    How important do you feel are moot court competitionsfor a law student who wishes to pursue litigation?

    Whilst academic and research oriented activities are very helpful in instilling in a student the capacity to work hard and dig deep to find the essence of every legal matter,moot court competitions sharpen the analytical ability and skill sets of a student. Students should participate in moot court competitionsasmuch as possible. As a student, I have enjoyed every moot court competition that I have participated in and I have emerged a better law analyser therefrom.

    Whilst moot courts necessarily do not expose you to the practicality of real life court room situations, they do provide you with some flavour as to how litigations are contested or defended. To be a successful lawyer, consistency and hard work are necessary ingredients. Hard work does not commence post enrolment at the Bar, but from the very moment you seek admission in a law school.

     

    What kind of internships did you undertake as a law student? Which was the most enriching internship experience for you?

    I was clearly inclined towards a career as a litigator. I therefore chose to do every internship of mine with litigators. From my second year at NLSIU, I regularly attended the chambers of my senior and guru in the profession, Mr. S. Vijay Shankar, Senior Advocate and Former Advocate General for Karnataka. I clerked in his chambers on a daily basis, post school hours, through my years at NLSIU. It enormously exposed me to the practice of law in the High Court of Karnataka. The four years of clerking for Mr. Vijay Shankar had sufficiently equipped me to deal with many nuances of drafting, filing and registry processes in the High Court. Mr. Vijay Shankar is one of the most methodical and disciplined lawyers I have known. His methodical approach indeed equipped me with sufficient skill sets. It was clearly one of the most enriching experiences for me.

    That apart, I interned with litigators in the Supreme Court during my summers through law school. One of the most enriching internships in Delhi was with Mr. V.R. Reddy, Senior Advocate and at that time the Additional Solicitor General of India. His capacity to portray some of the most complex legal propositions in the most simplest of terms amazed and inspired me.

     

    What challenges did you have to overcome in setting up a firm soon after graduating from law school?

    (Soon after graduating from NLSIU, Sajan established the firm Poovayya & Co. in Bangalore)

    I graduated as a gold medallist from NLSIU and late Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam handed over the degree tome in the convocation. I was on cloud nine. I had to go through a year’s compulsory post qualification internship before enrolling at the Bar as per the prevailing rules(which fortunately have been changed today). No sooner did I complete my post qualification internship, Poovayya & Co. was established with enormous support from my senior Mr. Vijay Shankar and my father Mr. M. K. Poovayya. It was unusual for lawyers to set up independent chambers or law firms immediately after enrolment at the Bar. When I expressed my desire to do so, my Senior and my father did not once discourage me, they in fact supported me in this venture. I plunged into the profession for I knew in the back of my mind that my father would continue to be a safety net, not so much in terms of finances but in terms of guidance.

    The initial years for Poovayya & Co. were extremely hard but never depressing. It was hard to gain the confidence of clients and the Bench. Hard work continues even today and enormous travel across courts in the country makes it harder. But therecontinue to be happy days and never have I gone home sad at the end of the day.

    I am glad Poovayya & Co. began its journey from Bengaluru and not any other city. Bengaluru, as a city in the mid-1990s, was going through a metamorphosis with corporatization being the buzz word that helped the firm garner quite a lot of work quickly.

    The Karnataka High Court is possibly the best High Court in the nation for a young lawyer to commence a career in litigation. Through my initial years, judges were extremely encouraging. It is for a young lawyer to make the best of such encouragement and aim forhigher thresholds of excellence in the profession. It is a myth that it is hellish for a litigator during the initial years.Hard work is a requirement, no doubt, with lesser amounts of monies compared to corporate non contentious lawyers, but the sense of achievement is extremely gratifying.

     

    Do you still get reminded of your first case and first hearing?

    I do recall my first argument in Court. I enrolled at the State Bar Council at 11.30 am and was out for lunch with Mr. Basavaraj, my immediate senior at the chambers of Mr. Vijay Shankar. Duringlunch, he encouraged me to argue a matter in the Chief Justice’s Court post lunch at 2.30 pm. I knew the matter well on account of my continuous clerkship at the chambers of my Senior.

    Mr. Basavaraj sat beside me in Court as a fulcrum of encouragement. The matter involved a question of incorporation by reference in a legislation. I argued for about forty five minutes, my first ever as a lawyer. I lost the case but received compliments fromthe Bench headed by Mr. R.P. Sethi. A few members of the Bar enquired with Mr. Basavaraj, if I was a Counsel from another High Court, specifically briefed to argue the matter. Failure in the first case was not only sugar coated for me but also became a stepping stone to get here and go on further.

     

    Is it important to have prior connections within the legal field to successfully manage this?

    Prior connections in the legal field are unnecessary and many a time, can be detrimental as well. Prior exposure to the legal field is very necessary and this can be achieved with the help ofinternships and/or clerkships. Prior exposure certainly better equips you to deal with the vagaries of the profession whilst prior connections may not necessarily do so.

     

    What made you choose London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE) for your masters in Information Technology Law? How has your Masters from the prestigious LSE affected your career in the long run?

    I would always recommend a stint at reputed universities abroad, not so much for the quantum of law that you will learn but for the enormous exposure such stint affords you. I have been a fan of LSE since the time I read the works of Bernard Shaw and also for the fact that Dr.Ambedkar, at one point of time, was associated with the institution. I obtained a Master’s degree and thoroughly enjoyed my time at LSE. The fact that I received a fat scholarship which took care of not just academic fees but also expenses for a comfortable living in London was an added incentive. I pursued the solicitor’s programme in parallel and was admitted to Law Society of LES as a solicitor of the Supreme Court of England and Wales.

     

    I realized that the thresholds of academic excellence at NLSIU were as high, if not higher than LSE. Therefore, more than the academic exposure, what I gained most during my stint at London was exposure to how barristers work in the city. I was associated with a few barristers and I would regularly attend hearings (as a visitor) at the Royal Courts of London. Those experiences further reinforced my decision to remain and continue as a litigator.

     

    After having completed your masters in a foreign university, what made you come back to India, instead of setting up a career in the UK?

    India offers one of the most vibrant platforms in the world for a litigator. The quantum and diversity of litigation in India far exceeds anything that UK can offer. I had no doubts ever in my mind that I wanted to litigate and that too in my home country. While I did receive job offers from a few London law firms, they made no sense to me in light of what I always wanted to be, i.e., a litigator. Coming back to India to litigate was therefore a natural choice for me and I am very glad I did.

     

    How was your experience working as the State Government’s lawyer?Would you consider taking up such work in the future?

    (Sajan was the Additional Advocate General for Karnataka from November 2012 to May 2013)

    I officiated as an Additional Advocate General for Karnataka for about a year and was the sole Additional Advocate General for the State of Karnataka for good part of the tenure. I thoroughly enjoyed my tenure. What made it even more special for me was that my chamber senior Mr. Vijay Shankar was the Advocate General, officiating for the second term. Sixteen years prior thereto, in 1996, he had commenced his first term as the Advocate General for Karnataka during which time I was his chamber junior and had closely worked under him in many matters of importance. The opportunity to work with him again and that too as his Additional Advocate General was indeed a wonderful experience.

    I firmly believe that all litigators should, at some point of time in their careers, work for the State or the Union. The dimensions of work that you experience as a senior law officer for the State or Union far transcends the exposure that private practice can offer. Representing the State or Union as a senior law officer in the midst of multiple bureaucratic constraints makes you not just a better lawyer but a more mature human being. For a successful private practitioner, occupying such position also affords the opportunity to contribute to the profession and give a little back to the society. An efficient lawyer as a law officer can make an enormous difference to the State and consequently to the society. I will certainly consider taking up such positions as and when, and if at all, they are offered to me.

     

    What would be your advice to recent law graduates when they are faced with the choice between joining law chambers of a Senior Advocate, or working with an up-and-coming new lawyer?

    It does not matter whether you join the chambers of aSenior Advocate or work with an up-and-coming new lawyer. As a young lawyer, fresh off mint, one should join a chamber which has a wide variety of work. It is extremely important for a litigator to experience a wide area of contentious practice, rather than restrict oneself to a particular specialized vertical. The greater the exposure to a variety of legal work, better will you emerge as a lateral thinker. The key aspects that a lawyer should look for in a chamber are therefore: (i) variety of work; and (ii) opportunity to handle litigations completely, however minor they may be.

     

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    Should one start out at the Trial Courts before proceeding to the High Court if one has no connections in the legal arena? Or would you recommend joining a litigation firm instead?

    Practice as a trial lawyer is crucial and sets the foundations for a successful practice. One cannot aspire to become a successful appellate counsel sans any trial experience, although there may be exceptions. I find many lawyers starting out directly at High Courts which do not have original jurisdiction or even in the Supreme Court. Whilst that may work for a few, it is not the most desirable path to tread. It is not necessary for a few years to be exclusively devoted to trial work. It has been my experience that a good blend of trial and appellate practice simultaneously helps in the overall development of a litigator.

    For youngsters who are determined to climb the vertical of litigation practice, I would highly recommend joining a reputed litigation firm which has considerable trial and appellate work.

     

    How would you encourage students to keep their determination to enter litigation alive instead of joining corporate firms, owing to the lack of financial stability in the former?

    Gone are the days when it was tough surviving the first few years in the litigation arena. Young litigators no more receive merely subsistence allowances. Almost all law chambers offer a fairly adequate remuneration for a young junior counsel. When I entered the profession, a thousand rupees per month for a junior was considered a princely sum, as most chambers typically offered less than half of that.

    Juxtapose to the present day, where junior litigators are paid sufficiently to maintain a decent lifestyle if not a luxurious one. Certainly, litigation initially offers far less, in terms of financial rewards, as compared to corporate law firms. However, the sense of achievement and satisfaction is unparalleled. What you need therefore is the determination to survive as a litigator. The growth curve in litigation is so steep that in a few years, a diligent litigator will not just surpass his peers in corporate law firms but also achieve far greater thresholds of professional success (and financial success too).

     

    How do you prepare for a good case? What would be your tips and advice to young lawyers?

    There are no good or bad cases. There are only good or bad lawyers. When one begins preparations for a brief, one should never pre-judge the matter. The case is what it is and it is for you to extract the best out of it and weave sound legal arguments around it. My candid advice for young lawyers is to prepare every brief as if there is no tomorrow. ‘Complete Preparation’ is the mantra. It is certainly not sufficient for you to prepare your arguments on what you believe are the merits of your case. The mantra for success is in being prepared with as many arguments against your proposition and in finding counters to each of those, such that you will ultimately emerge victorious. Young lawyers should also bear in mind that many a time, litigations are lost on procedural issues despite substantial merits in the matter. Never ignore procedure. I have found thirty minutes’ preparation for every minute of submission in Court to be a fairly helpful yardstick. In complex matters, however, the yardstick can extend to an hour’s preparation for every minute’s submission.

     

    Do you have plans for the future expansion of Poovayya & Co.? Are business development skills necessary when it comes to running a firm nation-wide?

    Pursuant to my designation as Senior Advocate, I quit the law firm Poovayya & Co. Whilst there exists debate around the question as to whether a Senior Advocate can or should continue as partner in a law firm, I have always maintained that once designated, Senior Advocates should not hold direct interests in or control law firms. It is extremely difficult for a Senior Advocate to disconnect himself from clients and client aspirations, if he continues to hold equity or proprietary interests in a law firm.

    When I quit Poovayya & Co. and demitted offices as the firm’s managing partner, I was reasonably certain that the firm has matured to a level that it would continue to grow without me. The firm’s existing partners have done a splendid job in continuing its growth in each of its four offices. Poovayya & Co. as a firm has continued to prosper with significant year-on-year growth, independent of me. Whether to expand the firm further with newer offices in other cities is for the firm’s existing partners to decide.

    On the question of business development skills, I have a slightly non-traditional view. Having run a law firm for almost 18 years, I believe that it is your work which should be your brand ambassador and the best marketing partner you can ever have. Almost the entirework being undertaken by Poovayya & Co. has come from the previous and existing clients’ references. I therefore believe that capacity to market is irrelevant for building a successful law practice.

     

    What do you look for when you hire lawyers under you? Can academic experience replace work experience and the ability to deliver?

    What I would see in a young lawyer during the recruitment process is the following: (i) capacity and inclination to work hard; and (ii) rational & analytical thought process.

    Academic excellence, at times, demonstrates the candidate’s capacity to work hard. It is impossible to compare or choose between academic excellence and work experience. One does not substitute the other. What you need is a combination of both.

     

    Do you find it easy to maintain a work-life balance? How do you unwind after a hard day’s work?

    The concept of work-life balance has been hyped in India and sometimes discussions around it are unnecessary. The debate on ‘work-life balance’ pre-supposes that you do not enjoy your work and therefore do not see ‘life’ in it. For a lawyer who enjoys his work, a lot of his life is woven around his work. If you enjoy what you do as a lawyer, you may be tired at the end of the day but are never stressed. My work keeps me packed for a good part of the day and the night. Travels between the Supreme Court and various High Courts makes it a little worse in terms of time management. That said, I do find sufficient time to spend with my family and I cherish every moment of what I get with them. The best form of relaxation is to spend time with your family and loved ones.

    I also collect and restore old automobiles and that passion helps me unwind. Strumming Carnatic classical tunes on the mandolin is another way for me to unwind.  Music is a great way to de-stress. Lawyers should plan their work in such a manner that they have sufficient time to do things other than law and spend time with their loved ones.

     

    What is the one advice you would like to give our readers?

    Never underestimate the power of ‘here’ and ‘now’. When at work, give all of what you have to it, in terms of sincerity, labour, time and attention. Always have an eye for detail. When you are at work, switch on ‘work’ and switch off the ‘world’.  When you are not working switch off ‘law’ and switch on the ‘world’. Doing things other than law will invariably make you a better lawyer!

    To be a superlative litigator, you should be a maverick with a strong moral fibre.

  • Divyam Agarwal, Senior Associate, J. Sagar Associates, on higher studies from LSE, cracking the AOR exam and experience in Litigation

    Divyam Agarwal, Senior Associate, J. Sagar Associates, on higher studies from LSE, cracking the AOR exam and experience in Litigation

    Divyam Agarwal graduated from Amity Law School in 2007 and went on to do a Master’s from The London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE) in 2008. Today, he is a Senior Associate at J. Sagar Associates and has extensive experience in Commercial & Civil Litigation matters as well as commercial arbitrations.

    A qualified Advocate-on-Record of the Supreme Court of India, in this interview Divyam shares with us:

    • The importance of learning the art of advocacy in law school through moot courts
    • His take on how to apply for Master’s at the prestigious LSE
    • Experience of working at a Tier-I law firm
    • The method of preparing for the difficult AOR Exam

     

    Please share with us how you chose to study law. Do you have lawyers in your family?

    While growing up, I had no specific inclination towards taking up law as a profession. With the passage of time and after closely observing my maternal grandfather who was a reputed taxation lawyer in UP as well as my father who is a chartered accountant, I realized that a person having knowledge of law thinks rationally and objectively in not only professional situations but also in day to day affairs of life. Though I was initially hesitant, after joining my law course, I developed a keen interest in law subjects, particularly those pertaining to dispute resolution. One thing led to another and I found my calling.

     

    How was your experience at Amity Law School?

    Studying at Amity Law School was a great experience. Apart from the regular course structure, we were given ample opportunities to participate in several moot court competitions and other such events. Another advantage of studying at Amity Law School was the fact that the college was based in Delhi and I got several opportunities to intern with practicing lawyers and well-known law firms.

     

    Could you tell us about the internships you undertook during this period? How do you believe one should structure their internships during law school to provide the maximum exposure?

    My internships were spread out evenly in the corporate sector as well as litigation. Even though my interest all along had been to pursue dispute resolution, in order to make a reasoned and well informed decision, I decided to intern in a corporate setup, so as to assess work involved therein and my inclination towards the same.

    It is advisable to evenly spread internships and gain exposure in maximum possible areas of law. This helps in identifying the right practice area. Another way for maximizing the benefits of internships is to link the internships with the nature of subjects which one is being taught concurrently in college.

     

    You were an avid mooter in law school. Please share with us your achievements and experiences in mooting.

    All law students must hone their oratory skills by regularly participating in moot court competitions. I represented my law school in many competitions and was fortunate to win several accolades. I was part of the team that won the national rounds of Stetson International Environment Law Moot and we represented India at the World Rounds held at Florida, USA. At the World Rounds, our team made it to the quarter finals and I was declared the third best oralist. My love for mooting continued even during my stint at LSE. I was part of the team that represented LSE at Willem C. Vis Moot held at Vienna. Mooting not only aided me in overcoming any possible unease in presenting my thoughts in an effective manner but also improved my inter-personal skills and confidence.

     

    What was your motivation to go abroad for higher studies? How should one go about applying for premier foreign universities like LSE?

    (Divyam pursued a Master’s from the prestigious LSE)
    Although it is a common perception that lawyers intending to practice in the dispute resolution sphere do not necessarily require higher qualification than LLB degrees and higher qualification is often considered to be a means for personal gratification, I have always been of the view that to truly understand the ethos and ever evolving dynamics of any subject, law or any other, it is imperative that one should refine their knowledge by pursuing higher education in their chosen field.

    LSE being one of the premier institutes was a logical choice. I was really impressed with the quality of the faculty for my area of interest. Also, from my research I noted that at LSE the emphasis during classes was on discussions and deliberations regarding practical application of theoretical concepts. This difference in approach was one of the key factors which made me opt for LSE. On a lighter note, the fact that I had been awarded the K.R. Narayanan Scholarship for my Master’s course at LSE made the decision a no brainer!

    Applications at LSE are considered strictly on academic merit. It is imperative to have a good aggregate coupled with mooting and internship experience. Aspirants should concentrate on preparing a focused Statement of Purpose and also obtain Letters of Recommendation from legal luminaries and academicians whom they have been associated with.

     

    How did you zero in on Arbitration as your specialization for your Master’s?

    Arbitration as an alternate dispute resolution mechanism has always fascinated me. In my law school days, courts were shaping the arbitration law at an alarming pace. Substantial advances had been made in foreign jurisdictions especially in the United Kingdom and the principles of alternate dispute resolution and arbitration were well established there. As such, when it came to my Master’s degree, understanding the nuances of international commercial arbitration was a natural choice.

     

    How was the experience at LSE? How do you think it has helped you?

    As clichéd it may sound, at LSE I had the best experience of my life. The whole spirit of LSE –taught by brilliant minds, sharing space with exceptional students from around the world and the overall vibe of the city– was really an enriching experience.

    I found my time at LSE to be both inspirational and essential formy future career. It has given me a broad understanding of the world from a legal perspective which I have found relevant to everything from work in the office to chats in the pub.

     

    Students wishing to pursue Master’s should prefer a chance abroad or in India?

    I believe every law student, given the opportunity, must go for Master’s abroad. The transnational exposure and interaction with lawyers/law students from other jurisdictions helps one in gaining invaluable experiences. It is definitely worth pursuing Master’s from abroad. It changes you in the way you think about everything around you.

     

    How did you proceed after your Master’s?

    In my final year of law school I had interned at J. Sagar Associates. During my internship, I was fortunate to receive a placement offer from the Dispute Resolution team. After the completion of my Master’s, I approached the firm and was given an opportunity to work with them. That’s how my journey with JSA began.

     

    How has the experience of working for the Dispute Resolution Team of a Tier I law firm been?

    (Divyam is currently a Senior Associate at J. Sagar Associates)

    Working at JSA has been an enriching experience. I have recently completed 7 years with the firm, yet each day I continue to learn something new. Each day possesses a different challenge and I look forward to the same. Initially, it was challenging to match the high standards of the organization. However, over the years I have been able to fit myself in and now I strive towards achieving JSA’s vision and mission.

     

    In a profession known to take its toll on one’s personal life, how do you manage to find time for yourself?

    Dispute Resolution is one of the most demanding practice areas. My day is a mix of court appearances, drafting, research work, client meetings and briefing senior counsels. The key lies in effective time management. One trick I have learnt and have followed over the years is to monitor my sleep cycle and squeeze some time either late in night or early morning and finish some chores at home. This allows me greater flexibility throughout the day and a window for attending to my family life. As Thomas Edison once said and I quote “Most people overeat 100 percent and oversleep 100 percent, because they like it. That extra 100 percent makes them unhealthy and inefficient”.

     

    Do Indian law firms value an LL.M. from abroad? Does the lack of an NLU tag hurt one’s chances?

    I feel in India you don’t get enough recognition or weightage for having obtained higher qualification. However, of late the trend has started to shift towards recognizing such higher qualifications, which bodes well for future aspirants who wish to pursue LL.M. from abroad.

    In so far as the lack of an NLU tag is concerned, I have not experienced any such discrimination. Unlike some firms around, JSA has a very open and acceptable culture towards other law schools. Here it is all about merit. You don’t get any extra stars for carrying an NLU chip on your shoulder.

     

    What suggestions would you have for aspirants looking at clearing the notoriously difficult AOR exam of the Supreme Court of India?

    (Divyam recently cleared the AOR exam and got the 4th rank)

    Be aware of the current legal position. There are so many legal initiatives which regularly notify us with new developments. Questions are often inspired by recent developments in law. Also it would be helpful to have practical exposure. Take time out and visit the Registry and Listing Branches of the Supreme Court with your office clerk and witness how court filings are actually done. This will really help you in understanding and appreciating the procedural aspect. And of course do not miss the lectures which are organized by Supreme Court Registry and Supreme Court Bar Association. They are very helpful.

     

    It is being debated whether there actually is a need of the AOR system in the Apex Court. What are your views on the necessity of the AOR system in the Supreme Court?

    AORs play a vital and constructive role in the justice delivery system. The court system being pyramidal in structure makes the Supreme Court as the Court of last resort, so it is imperative to have effective representation by an Advocate, who is trained and well equipped to deal with the niceties and requirements of the Supreme Court.

     

    Where do you see yourself a decade down the line?

    I live by what excites me in life. Presently, I am happy with what I am doing. The work continues to excite me and thus, I believe I see myself growing with the firm.

     

     

  • Shwetank Tripathi, Associate, Zeus Law, on the primary years of a lawyer

    Shwetank Tripathi, Associate, Zeus Law, on the primary years of a lawyer

    Shwetank Tripathi is an alumnus of the RMLNLU, Lucknow of the 2012 graduating batch. As a fresh law graduate, he started working in Zeus Law Associates and within a year was made part of the team looking after matters before the Company Law Board, New Delhi as well as the Indirect Tax Team.  His current work profile includes client-coordination, research on legal issues, drafting, filing, briefing Senior Counsels and strategy-making.

    In this interview he tells us about:

    • His first few months as a fresh law graduate
    • His experience in arguing matters as an advocate when he was fresh out of law school
    • How experience at an internship is different from working at a firm as a full-time employee
    • The experience and challenges of briefing senior counsels

     

    Please tell us about your law school days at RMLNLU. How did you balance academics and co-curricular activities?

    My 5 years at RMLNLU have been a huge learning curve for me, both academically as well as personally. Ours being a relatively new college, with only one batch senior to us, exposed us to myriad opportunities. Academics and co-curricular activities couldbe easily balanced by maintaining regularity and paying equal attention to both the areas.

     

    You have published papers in various prestigious journals. Can you give us tips to ace the art of paper writing?

    I believe that article-writing is a simple yet tricky task. It is very important to keep a track on the contemporary legal developments. One needs to pick a contemporary issue of interest, research upon the past legal position, analyse the present development, foresee a roadmap ahead and compile all those aspects together.

     

    How important do you think CPI/CGPA is in terms of one’s CV value? Is it an important factor during the recruitment process?

    (Shwetank had a fantastic CPI of 8.89/10)

    Well, no one has ever asked me yet as to what my CPI was. But having said that, I also believe that having a good grade is a safe bet. Most firms take into account grades as one of the significant factors during the initial screening. However, CPI alone cannot see you through; it has to be backed by co-curricular activities, and more importantly, the work experience at your internships.

     

    All your internships have been at top-notch firms.How did you go about securinggood internships and what advice would you give to young students reading this interview who want internships in topfirms?

    (Shwetank has interned at firms like Dua Associates, Amarchand, Karanjawala and Fox & Mandal)

    I have been fortunate enough to be able to secureinternships at known places. I could get most of the internships through friends and contacts. For securing an internship, it is important to prepare a well-written résumé, and maintain a constant follow-up with the concerned HR Department of the firm where the internship is sought.

     

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    How is the experience at an internship different from working at a firm as a full-time employee?

    Working as an intern and as an employee is a different ball-game altogether, in terms of the expectations and responsibilities. However, my internships have a big role to play in the career choice that I made for myself. I could get a first-hand experience of the challenges lying ahead, which helped me make an informed choice.

     

    How did you secure a job in Zeus Law fresh after your graduation.

    I had interned at Zeus for 4 months in my last year of law school. After graduating when I applied for the job, it was merely an informal meet-up and I began working immediately after college was over. The recruitment process involves preliminary screening of your résumé and subsequent personal interview.

     

    How tough were the first 6 months at your workplace?

    First six months are tough because you know nothing of the profession. But hard work and attentive attitude makes things simpler in no time.

     

    What are your day-to-day responsibilities? What is the most challenging aspect of your job? How has the experience been so far?

    Daily responsibilities include coordination with clients, drafting and attending matters before various courts. Most challenging aspect of a law firm job is the management of time. My experience so far has been enthralling.

     

    What is your work profile like right now?

    My current work profile entails overall responsibility of matters, including client-coordination, research on legal issues, drafting, filing, briefing Senior Counsels and attending various courts.

     

    Do you think that the curriculum of law schools can prepare the students for real practice?

    The law school curriculum and the actual practice are very different. However, it is very important to have a sound academic base, because once we start working, there is always a dearth of time to spend on the basics. I believe law school curriculum should be made more practice-oriented.

     

    How has your experience been in arguing matters as a fresh-out-of-law-school advocate? Are there any memorable instances you can share with us?

    Well, arguing matters before courts has always been the most thrilling part of mylife after law school. Although in a law firm practice you don’t get to argue that often, but I have been fortunate to get many such opportunities. Every instance when you werefully prepared, presented your case to your best and got a favourable order is a memorable instance.

     

    What are the benefits and challenges of briefing Senior Counsels? Do you believe they are able to add value to your clients’ arguments?

    Having a Senior Counsel on board is a big help for us as we get to learn various ways in which a case can be strategized to serve the best interest of the client. Senior Counsels definitely add value to the case prepared by us.

     

    What according to you makes for a strong firm culture? What do you believe leads to the high attrition rates in law firms?

    A strong firm culture mandatorily requires cohesion between the team members. I believe high attrition rates in law firms are mostly attributable to the challenging nature of the job.

     

    Is work-life balance an issue?

    At times, we are compelled to sacrifice on the personal front. But, there are also good leisure times. It is all about what one wants in life, and managing the personal and professional commitments with smart planning.

     

    If you could re-live your 5 years in law school, is there anything you would do differently?

    My 5 years at law school have been pretty satisfying. However, if I am given an opportunity to re-live those five years, I would aspire to read more.

     

    Where do you see yourself five years from now?

    I do not believe much in foresightedness. I aspire to keep up the motivation and continue to work hard.

     

    Lastly, what would be your message for our readers?

    My experience being limited to law firms, I would like to share with such aspirants that it is the easiest of the careers to pursue. Hard work and dedication is obviously required, but once you are sure you want to do this, everything else would gradually fall into place.

     

    This interview was taken by: Jyotsna Arora, USLLS, IP University

  • Arnab Ghosh, Counsel, Beam Suntory, on in-house experience, practicing at Calcutta HC and teaching CLAT aspirants

    Arnab Ghosh, Counsel, Beam Suntory, on in-house experience, practicing at Calcutta HC and teaching CLAT aspirants

    Arnab Ghosh graduated from RGNUL, Punjab in the year 2013. An all-rounder, he has several accolades to his name in the field of mooting, editing, writing and sports. After working under a Supreme Court judge, Arnab took a detour and started teaching CLAT aspirants, inspiring them along the way and helping them find out whether they would be able to embrace the legal profession in the future.

    He has donned the hat of not just a teacher, but also a practicing advocate in the Calcutta High Court, and now, a legal in-house counsel for a company, Beam Suntory, Inc.

    In this interview, Arnab shares his experience about:

    • Teaching as a senior faculty member of a CLAT coaching center
    • Working under a Supreme Court judge and as practising advocateat the Calcutta High Court
    • Being the in-house counsel for a company

     

    What was your motivation to study law? Do you have any lawyers in your family?

    Law was actually an afterthought for me. I always had an inclination towards the social sciences and made up my mind about studying liberal arts abroad. However, coming from a stereotypical Bengali family, it seemed blasphemous to take up any other subjects apart from PCMB (Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics and Biology) for 12th standard board exams and I seemed destined for a degree in engineering.

    A friend told me about CLAT, which I managed to clear. It was only after landing up in National Law School did I realise that studying law was probably one of the best decisions I had taken. For this, I have to thank my parents who understood my aptitude better than the teenager I was at the time. My father is a lawyer himself. He decided to start practicing rather late in his life but his determination and tenacity to make up for lost time is remarkable.

    My first cousin is also a lawyer who is currently working with the WTO. We may not be a family with a “legal legacy” but I am hoping that will change in the coming generations.

     

    How did you prepare for CLAT? Did you take any coaching? How was your experience taking the exam the first time it was ever held?

    I never felt that there was an overwhelming need to take separate coaching for CLAT. The ISC curriculum and a general academic approach equipped me to tackle the GK, English and Math sections. I was obsessed with logic and had a thorough grounding in Logical Reasoning, especially in the realm of mathematics, for which I have to thank Sanjit, my math and physics tutor (he’ll hate the fact that I called him that) in classes 11 & 12. This moulded my intellect and approach and I realized that it helped me with CLAT as well. Given a set structure and pattern, I could draw logical conclusions. In order to prepare for the Legal Aptitude section, I solved model question papers and started using the tools of logic and reasoning to answer the questions. Initially, it wasn’t easy but having crafted the method myself, with time I became comfortable with the pattern and structure of the various entrance exams which were specific to the National Law Schools prior to the inception of CLAT.

    After the exam, I felt that CLAT was the most refreshing entrance exam that I had given, especially because it was sandwiched between the IIT-JEE, AIEEE and others of the same league. The first thing that struck me about CLAT is that first and foremost, one has to be diligent towards building their general knowledge, there are no short cuts to it, it can only be built over a period through sustained efforts. It’s ludicrous to even imagine that it’s possible to mug up all the yearbooks that are available in the market. The rest of the paper is actually based on aptitude (more often than not) and while people may improve over a period of time, the logical and “legal” bent of mind can only be honed and not created.

     

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    You have interned with a few of the top law firms in India. How did you go about securing internships at these firms? How was your experience with them?

    Persistence. As a law student, I realized something quickly, my need was greater than the firms. Law firms, by and large, can do without interns. The onus was upon me to secure these internships. Initially, I was heavily dependent on the college and over the years, I made efforts to build a CV which would, at the very least, be looked at by the firms. However, one of my best internships was when I landed up at the firm, requested a partner to meet me and then convinced him to give me an internship. The trick is to be proactive and take out time to not only apply but also keep following up.

     

    How did you get an internship with a sitting Supreme Court Judge? How was the experience?

    I have to thank the Internship and Placement Committee of RGNUL for securing this internship. The setup of these internships is such that you get to work from the Judge’s house itself. Every evening, His Lordship took time out to talk to us and discuss certain aspects of litigation and court practice. He candidly shared his experiences for our benefit. As far as being able to list the things I learnt, first and foremost, it gives you a clear perspective on things from the other side of the Bench. Secondly, we had to brief His Lordship which entailed reading hundreds of files and various matters. Thirdly, His Lordship would discuss certain matters with us. As a student, that is the ultimate practical guide to litigation which no other internship can provide. You get to know the types of cases that are likely to get a favourable decision and the ones which don’t and the way judges think. Going forward, if litigation is the career path one wishes to adopt, an internship with a sitting SC Judge is invaluable.

     

    Are there any extra-curricular activities you participated in during your 5 years at RGNUL?

    I was an avid mooter and debater. In fact, mooting was a very big part of my college life. It started with the Willem C. Vis Moot, Vienna and ended with our team being runners up at the Juris Corp Corporate Law Moot, NLIU Bhopal. Even after graduating, I’ve been associated with the mooting activities in RGNUL, who had invited me to judge the Stetson Environmental Law Moot last year and the RGNUL Moot this year.

    Apart from these activities, I was an editor of the RGNUL’s monthly newspaper, “Carpe Diem”. I was also a part of the Internship and Placement Cell and took keen interest in organizing various events and activities for RGNUL.

    Apart from academic co-curricular activities, I was very interested in sporting activities, taking part in all the events held in college, especially cricket and football and was part of RGNUL’s football team.

     

    How was your experience teaching law school aspirants? What were the challenges you faced? What do you think legal aspirants need to be aware about before they become professionals?

    (Arnab taught as Senior Faculty at Career Launcher)

    In all honesty, I had applied to Career Launcher for a part time position. After the interviews, they were keen on me joining on a whole time basis and the job profile attracted me so I agreed to join them. By far, it was the most enriching and exciting engagement I’ve had. Dealing with students in classes 11 & 12, I took it upon myself to foster a sense of passion in them for studying law. A lot of people join the coaching with the incentive and hope to land top paying jobs and not many are well versed with the other aspects that the study of law has to offer. My focus was to make them understand that law, unlike other disciplines is not mechanical and can only be successfully pursued with a certain degree of fervor and passion, in other words, to get them to study law ‘for the right reasons’ and assuring them that if they do the basics right, money and its corollaries will follow.

    One of the most challenging parts was teaching the aspirants the basics of subjects like contracts, constitution and criminal law. I had to dig deep and find analogies from movies like The Dark Knight to get the attention of the students so that they could understand the nuances and basic principles. This, in turn, revived my love for law and also helped me sharpen my own understanding.

    However, one cause of mild alarm is that more and more students want to pursue law because it is a lucrative career option. This may be true but not many are ready for the challenges that come in the way. Not many understand the subjects or have an aptitude for it. There is a need to sensitize the students and make them aware of all the realities, especially the difficulties of the legal profession and also to provide counselling to ascertain their aptitude and find whether they are suited for law.

     

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    What factors made you switch from teaching to practicing as a lawyer? How was your experience?

    (Arnab switched to practicing as a Solicitor in the Calcutta High Court after his stint at Career Launcher)

    After working with CL for 6 months, I realized that it wasn’t a long term career option and that I had more or less learned everything that the position had to offer. I enjoyed teaching thoroughly but I wanted to start teaching in colleges and universities. Thanks to a dear friend, RishabRaturi, I was able to work with the Center of International Trade and Economic Laws at Jindal Global Law School on a few projects. It made me realise that although a Masters degree is not essential, it is recommended and I decided that Career Launcher will not provide me the requisite work experience to pursue the same.

    Moreover, I had been advised to start working in my hometown in order to pursue a successful career in litigation. Coupled with other personal factors, it seemed like the right move at the time and it was a rewarding experience from which I learned a lot, not only about law but also about the things I can and can’t do in the profession.

     

    How is your present experience of working in a legal department of a corporate firm? What is your role in the firm?

    (Arnab is presently working as Legal and Secretarial Consultant at Beam Suntory, Inc. at their Gurgaon office)

    I am working in the legal department at Beam Suntory. 70-80% of my job involves drafting contracts and agreements, getting licenses and other requirements for running a liquor business in India and other compliance functions. All our day to day work is done in-house hence that widens the scope of this job immensely. We have to interact with various excise and other departments across the country, each being distinctly different from the other.

    The alcohol industry is heavily regulated with strict laws governing business and promotion activities. Almost all marketing and other promotions have to be approved by the legal department before being implemented by the company. One of our recent ventures has been to tie up with VH1 Supersonic through Jim Beam Music CDs (one of our brands), which is one of the biggest music festivals in India and which also happens to be a project I’m personally associated with. From the courts of Calcutta to the beaches of Goa, this indeed has been a fairytale transition.

    Hence, my role in Beam Suntory is primarily legal but it has a lot of scope for cross functional projects. Currently, I have been entrusted with taking a leading role in 3 such projects for the company which amalgamates legal and other functions. While working in a company, it is your skill set and talents that play a huge role along with the degree you hold.

     

    What are the challenges you face as an in-house counsel? How are they different from those you faced in court during your stint in Calcutta?

    One of the generic challenges, that one faces while working as an in-house counsel is the emphasis on coming up with solutions. It is imperative to understand that the biggest responsibility is enhancement and maintenance of the business. It is not enough to say that the law does or does not allow a certain activity. We have to find ways around in order that the business does not suffer. As an in-house counsel, my clients are the various departments within the company, such as IT, Operations, Sales & Marketing, HR, Finance, etc. It is important to understand these departments in order to render effective service.

    The alcohol industry adds its own set of challenges. Every state has its own set of laws and requirements since alcohol is an entry in the state list. Some states have a corporation market wherein we do business directly with government entities, some have a private market where we deal with retailers and some have mixed markets which means that we have to deal with multiple excise laws and policies. Alcohol is also regulated by the FSSAI, Legal Metrology, IPR, Companies Act and many other laws, all of which have to be complied with.

    Another challenge, probably the biggest that we face is that we are associated with an American company. Hence, we have to adhere to strict anti-corruption laws. Any lapse on our part can lead to irreparable consequences. No matter how pressing or urgent a matter is, we cannot take any short cuts or obtain favours (monetary or otherwise) from any private or public entities. We take pride in being a company with complete transparency. As an in-house counsel, it is my prime responsibility to ensure the same.

    The main difference between working in a Court and working as an in-house counsel is the sheer variety of laws that you have to deal with. In litigation, there is a certain degree of familiarity with the laws and procedures and exposure is limited to the courts. In a company, you have to deal with other companies, entities, business partners, associate companies (in case of group companies of an MNC), various government authorities, banks, law firms, lawyers, consultants, etc. We also have to coordinate and provide support to various departments within the company. There are more deliverables every day while working as an in-house counsel as compared to working in a Court.

     

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    What are the skills that companies value the most in their in-house counsel? How does one go about the application process?

    Adaptability, business acumen, consistency, quick interpretation of laws, swift and effective problem solving skills, teamwork, and willingness to accept roles and duties beyond your job description, these are the most important qualities that an in-house counsel needs to have. First and foremost, you have to be very good as a lawyer. However, you should also possess the skills and willingness to discharge functions beyond your job description.

    A lot of companies advertise vacancies on various internet portals. One has to keep a track and be updated with that. In addition to that, one should try and intern with various companies. It helps if the college placement cell coordinates with major companies for securing placements and internships. The application process is not very different from any other job. Networking also plays a major role in securing positions as an in-house counsel.

    Taking up additional courses and getting additional qualifications such as being a Company Secretary is invaluable and I would sincerely advise every student desirous of working as an in-house counsel to get a CS degree at the very least.

     

    Is the work of an in-house counsel easier than that in a firm or in litigation? Is work-life balance an issue?

    At the risk of sounding like a boring diplomat, I would have to say that both the jobs have their own challenges and difficulties. The real question one needs to ask is whether they want to work in firms/litigation or in a company. One of the biggest peeves I had about litigation is that you had to stay in the Courts till about 4 in the evening and work only began at about 5. Sometimes, the days would get wasted without any cases coming up for hearing. Conversely, the work as an in-house counsel is more organized and structured. Also, the sheer variety of work ensures that it is not monotonous. Having said that, the thrill of arguing in a Court has its charm and appeal. As I said at the outset, there is nothing easy or difficult about law or anything for that matter, one has to put in a lot of effort into whatever they do.

    One of the best things about this job is the work-life balance. I get weekends off and the latest I’ve had to stay back in office was 8 p.m. We put our heads down and work hard from 9-6 but after that we are free birds. I get to take a swim morning and evening, party and cook on the weekends and even foster a dog. I don’t think any other job could have given me this much time and freedom.

     

    Would you have any parting words of encouragement for our readers who would like to follow your footsteps?

    Conventional wisdom says that you have to work hard and stick to whatever job or profession you take up. Hard work is absolutely essential. However, working hard for something that does not satisfy you is very counterproductive. At times it is essential to recognize that a certain job or role might not be suitable for you and at that juncture, one has to be bold and courageous enough to quit and move on. I was very lucky that I had the support of my family and friends, especially my parents. They stood by every decision I took.

    At times, I was rash and impulsive, but I was always true to myself. It is very important to be honest with yourself and do justice to your skills, interests and passions. Also, in the early stages of your career, the importance of a good senior/boss is incalculable. I have been very lucky to have Vandana Ma’am as my boss at Beam Suntory. Not only is she an excellent lawyer and boss but a great human being as well. It is imperative to not only find the right job but also the right mentor in the early stages of your career.

    To summarize, I’d say that it is very important to work hard and work towards a long term goal. However, it is also equally important to find a job which satisfies you, which makes you want to improve and give your 120% rather than constantly harbour thoughts of finding an opportunity to quit and switch jobs. Working with a lawyer, as a Senior Faculty, as a Solicitor, and now as an in-house counsel, I have been able to sample the various flavours the legal profession has to offer and in turn understand my skills and limitations better.

    Take as many risks as possible at the initial stages of your career and let your skills and interests, rather than degrees, specializations and marks, decide what is your perfect (or at least near perfect) job.

  • Siddhant Mishra on founding Aap Vakeel Hain and lawsheet.com

    Siddhant Mishra on founding Aap Vakeel Hain and lawsheet.com

    Siddhant Mishra is  a final year student at School of Law, KIIT University, Bhubaneswar. During his law school days, he founded the popular Facebook page, Aap Vakeel Hain and lawsheet.com, a website for law students.

    In this interview, Siddhant talks about:

    • His journey through law school and the internship experiences.
    • Founding Aap Vakeel Hai and lawsheet.com
    • Challenges faced in his entrepreneurial journey

    Could you share with us for deciding to study law? Did you have lawyers in your family?

    My foray into studying law was unplanned as I do not come from a legal background and am a first generation lawyer.

    You know you are a law student when math’s is..!

    I choose Humanities as my study stream for my plus two boards; initially graduation in Arts was the only formidable option left with me. It was more by chance than by choice that I got into the Legal Profession.

    How did you choose KIIT as the law school to attend?

    Not being able to get through CLAT, I prepared for KLSAT and joined KIIT. KIIT helped in gaining exposure in an array of fields, here we learned through experimentation and from our own mistakes. On academics, we had a robust curriculum, and the standards are pretty good which helped in getting introduced to the world of legal practice. Campus has a cosmopolitan crowd & I made some of the closest friends, learnt new things (good and bad).

    What co-curricular activities have you partaken in your law school years so far?

    Being a member of committees and societies helps in building one’s personality and career; it taught me the skill of networking that is terribly underrated in our system. At KIIT I was associated with committees conducting in-house and national events which helped me stay motivated and added a good blend of work with fun.

    siddhant sl 2

    Can you talk about your internships, and how they helped you?

    Internships were a rewarding experience for me. I was fortunate enough to flavor different kinds of work experiences, having got the opportunity to work with Law firms, NGO’s, Publishing House & in the chambers of some eminent practitioners; all this helped me learn researching and drafting. I learnt time management and prioritizing, which, I believe, hold equal value in our profession. Working as an intern in the chambers of Shri Mohan Parasaran (Ex- Solicitor General of India) made me realized that my interest lies to work as a litigant or to start with something of my own & that I was never interested in working in a corporate structured firm. In my opinion internships give a wider approach to the law students.

    You’re a prolific blogger, and you run a website ‘AapVakeelHain’. Can you tell us why you started both?

    The very idea of starting a rostrum for law students came in the second year of my college when I realized the dynamic transition i.e an online interface which is about to change the legal industry; but I was confused as which model will hand in glove and build a strong community for law students . Facebook was the answer! Being a student of second year I felt I will sound mindless if discussed this idea with anyone, so I started the work by my own.  I created a page with the name “Aap Vakeel Hain” which prospected me as spellbinding and start uploading sketch works commonly referred as “memes” depicting the subtle and overt hilarity of Law School.

    “A Law Student who loves to write & marketize”

    I started writing and blogging for few websites on my propositions where I get some good replies, met with few excellent mentors and worked hard in crafting my skills, later few of my write-ups got projected in the local newspapers &it’s from here when I decided to transmute the idea of a Facebook page into a Website.

     How was ‘AapVakeelHain’ been received by the legal fraternity so far?

    Surprisingly it went in an year time, with the sketch works being liked & shared from hundreds to thousands & website blogs started receiving fair traffic in a year time. Aap Vakeel Hain is currently running with the highest followers (30k+) in this segment and has a strong and growing online presence. We have built a good name, strong networks and hosted series of events in collaboration with Law Schools across the nation. Journey so far is really good.

    What do you hope to be the future of ‘AapVakeelHain’?

    “The best way to predict future is to create it” at present I’m tied in creating a team that will be looking for the upcoming plans. Aap Vakeel Hain will be registered as a company in the near future and will be enduring many marketing & networking programs which will help in solving legal education with online solutions on which I’m active on. I wish the future comes one day at a time.

    How has a strong and growing online presence helped you? What are the major challenges you face?

    A strong online presence has developed an advanced networking skills, I have led multiple projects; developed and implemented new policies and procedures.

    Starting a website requires little money which my father pooled in, he was hopeful and happy to hear my purpose & so were my friends Aqib Alam ( Content Creator),  Nishant , Snehil, & Akshay.

    Aap Vakeel Hain was initially run and managed single-handedly which at times become troublesome in striking a balance with other ongoing work, as you have to update it daily or else the readers will lose their pursuit and page will weak its reach. I tried to find few potential administrators but then it didn’t work out and it came on my head all again.

    There came a time when I was not too sure to expand this whole Idea, thankfully I had few good tie-ups which helped in administering the tasks swiftly.

    Aap Vakeel Hain is a self sustaining and profit earning entity now.

    What are your plans after post-graduation? Is a masters in the pipeline?

    I will go for LL.M which will allow me to further specialize in Criminal Law and thus prepare me better for my career as a litigant.

    SuperLawyer.in serves the best when it comes on sharing the career insights, (specially the detailed interviews discussing about the LL.M programs & fellowships) browsing the website directory will be of great help for law students.

    Can you tell us about your new venture lawsheet.com?

    “Lawsheet.com” A website by law students for law students, is an upcoming project which runs parallel with Aap Vakeel Hain; designed with a vision to help you through Law Schools.

    This website will be maintained and written by several different law students from different schools and in different years of their studies.

    Aside from offering their tips, advice, and experiences, the bloggers will be able to use it as a sort of outlet and stress reliever from their hectic law school schedules.

    You plan to help law students with greater visibility through lawsheet.com. How do you plan to achieve it?

    • Lawsheet, among many other things, will depict entries about current events, technology and social networking as it relates to law.
    • Lawsheet aims in sharing how to decide if law school is best for you while offering what must-haves you are going to need and how and what you need to prepare for important exams.
    • Lawsheet will talks about everything – from eating habits, to studying habits, to writing papers and case briefs!

    We are on it, hopeful to launch in the coming months.

    What motivated you towards the entrepreneurial initiatives you’ve taken?

    Primary motive is the desire to start something of my own. I’m not sure what’s coming down the curve but it is a thrill. We all have that one idea running in our mind of which we are sure of, what’s required is to implement it.

    While I was scripting for my Interview I took a break and watched TVF Pitchers (an Indian Comedy Drama Series) in which Naveen (Played as CEO of a upcoming venture) highlights the difference that exists in the European and the Indian model of Entrepreneurships, where in Europe they will ask “WHAT is the Model” in India they will ask “WHY Entrepreneurships”

    This difference in the support and attribution systems requires a reformation.

    What are the unconventional career alternatives for law students out there?

    A degree in Law doesn’t guarantee you a career in Law!

    • Entrepreneur- A degree in Law will help in understanding and negotiating contracts related to the business.
    • Politics- Both house of parliament are filled with politicians pioneering a degree in Law. Few even managed with fake degrees!
    • Journalism/Writing- I have a name “Tanuj Kalia” founder of Lawctopus and a graduate of WBNUJS wrote a book “Law as a career” you may start scripting yours.
  • Sayali Phatak, Senior Vice President-Legal, Airtel, on work experience in Telecommunication Laws and the role of an In-House counsel

    Sayali Phatak, Senior Vice President-Legal, Airtel, on work experience in Telecommunication Laws and the role of an In-House counsel

    Sayali Phatak graduated in Political Science in 1988 from Lady Shriram College and thereafter qualified in law in 1991 from Delhi University. She joined JB Dadachanji & Co. soon after graduation and worked there for the next two years.

    In 1999, she joined the litigation team at Amarchand Mangaldas & Suresh A. Shroff & Co. (AMSAS as it was then called). Thereafter, she joined as a legal counsel at Airtel. Having joined and quit Accenture in between, Sayali is currently Senior Vice President-Legal at the Corporate office of the Bharti Group.

    In this interview, she talks about:

    • Her work experience at JB Dadachanji and AMSS,
    • Her work experience as a Senior Vice-President-Legal at the Bharti Corporate office,
    • The work profile and practice of an in-house lawyer.

     

    How would you introduce yourself in one line to our readers?

    I am a Senior Vice President-Legal at the Bharti Corporate office with experience as an in-house counsel of over 17 years. My main areas of practice include corporate litigation, transactions, and corporate advisory matters.

    I come from a family of lawyers and Law was a natural progression after my Political Science Honours from Lady Shriram College.

     

    Tell us about your time as a law student and your internship experiences in Delhi University.

    DU was fun and friends. There were many subjects over the period of three years. Contract law was of particular interest to me.

    We did not have any concept of compulsory internships and so I did not intern.

     

    Right after graduation, you joined JB Dadachanji and Co. Which practice areas did you deal with, in the years that you worked there?

    I worked at JBD for about two years from 1992 to 1994. I was in the litigation team, so most of my work included drafting, researching case law and briefing senior advocates.

     

    What was the experience in the firm like? What made you shift to Amarchand & Mangaldas & Suresh A Shroff & Co. in 1999?

    JBD was a great place and I am still in touch with my friends from then. They had a lot of good matters and we got very good exposure in drafting and briefing. While I was with JBD, I received an offer to join AMSAS as it was then. I joined AMSAS in 1999 after taking a break as my daughter was born in 1994. I initially worked part time there but later joined full-time.

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    What was your work experience like in Amarchand?

    At AMSAS, I was in the litigation team again. I got an opportunity to work in various fora, ranging from the Supreme Court, High Court, MRTP, DRT the consumer forum and the BIFR. It was a great learning ground and we worked with different clients and got an opportunity to learn drafting, preparing opinions, researching case laws all over again, and I had the opportunity to brief various senior counsel and occasionally appear in courts.

     

    After Amarchand, you joined the legal team of Bharti Airtel. What was the reason behind this shift, especially since you were working at a premier law firm?

    Working in a law firm helped me build a great grounding for me, but due to family reasons I shifted to in-house legal work where I felt it was less pressing.

     

    Tell us about a day in your life as a legal counsel. How different was the kind of work at Airtel from Amarchand?

    Being an in-house counsel has been very satisfying and challenging. The experience and learnings from JBD and AMSAS, especially in litigation, were very useful. As an in-house counsel one needs to understand the business requirement and accordingly advise the internal teams how to meet their business needs within the parameters of the law. Earlier in the law firms, I was doing mainly litigation but in-house changed to a mixed bag, of contracts, some fairly straightforward, some complicated ones and litigation.

     

    What attracted you to Telecommunication Law?

    Telecom is a very happening space. It has seen exponential growth and is meshed with technology to reach out to millions for a variety of issues through voice or data and thus touches all people in some manner or the other. Clearly it is fast paced and an exciting field, and this is exactly what got me interested to Telecommunications.

     

    Why did you shift to Accenture in 2007? How was the work experience different from Airtel?

    I got an opportunity to be the Lead Counsel for the India Domestic business for Accenture and so I took that up. It was my first experience with an MNC and it was a good learning to understand how to interact with teams across Asia Pacific, etc. and understand their processes.

     

    You thereafter moved back to Airtel.

    It’s always good to improve one’s skill sets. I got an opportunity to work at the Corporate Office of Bharti and worked on a lot of M&A transactions, bond issues and thus took this up.

     

    What is the nature of your work at Airtel presently? Is it true that work in-house is less stressing than at a firm?

    We at the corporate office do not have a lot of litigation which is mainly handled by the Airtel Team but I have been part of briefing sessions with some eminent senior counsel in some sensitive matters.

    The role of an in-house counsel has changed substantially over the last few years with many persons from law firms making the transition to in-house at various levels. As stated above the role of an in-house counsel is extremely challenging as we live with the business and have to take ownership of all matters, especially in organizations which are fast paced. Also briefing senior counsel is done for litigation matters but there is a lot of transactional and advisory work which happens internally. Further in litigation, a lot of strategizing is done in-house.

     

    Does working as a legal counsel get monotonous? How is it possible for one to keep experiencing new learning curves while working as a legal counsel?

    The role of an in-house counsel is far from monotonous for the reasons stated above. As regards experiencing new learning curves, as stated above, with a business which is fast paced and evolving one has no choice but to be ahead of the times and work with business to ensure that the business goes ahead.

     

    What would you advise law students who want to join in-house roles?

    My personal view is that young students must first do a few years of litigation and garner work experience with law firms. These would be extremely useful and would serve as an edge over others if one wishes to move in-house.

    Work as an in-house counsel requires collaborative and team effort. Each counsel is measured on how they are able to help the business achieve their objectives and thus all have to work with all teams in order to close the issue.

    Diligence, commercial insight, updated legal knowledge, attention to detail and good healthy relationships with internal customers is required if one wants to do well.

     

    What is your current work profile like? How do you balance work and personal life?

    I am currently leading a team of four colleagues and we provide full support to the Corporate office for all legal issues. Work life balance is something one has to achieve for oneself and there are spikes when there may be no weekends off, some with one day and some with both. If one finds one’s work exciting then all can be managed.

     

    What are your plans for the future?

    To continue what I am doing and learn new skill sets.

     

    What is the one advice you would like to give young law students?

    Law is an extremely versatile area and due to its far reach touching all aspects of life, it’s a great subject to study whether one wants to practice or teach or pursue other careers in environment, Human rights etc.

  • Kanan Dhru, Founder, RFGI, LawToons, LawForMe, on being a Social Entrepreneur and work experience in Policy Research

    Kanan Dhru, Founder, RFGI, LawToons, LawForMe, on being a Social Entrepreneur and work experience in Policy Research

    Kanan Dhru graduated in B.Com from Gujarat University in 2003, thereafter she pursued Bachelor of Laws from the prestigious London School of Economics and graduated by 2006.

    With her qualification in law, she started her versatile work life full of enviable achievements like being a member of a Prime Minister’s advisory body, consultant for Members of Parliament, and, interestingly, practising advocate at the Gujarat High Court.

    Finally, the social entrepreneur in her motivated her to found the Research Foundation for Governance in India (RFGI) in 2009. RFGI is a think-tank that is working on legal and political reforms in India. Kanan is dealing with issues like backlog of cases, education for lawyers as well as engaging youth in governance through her work in RFGI.

    Recently, she has founded LawForMe (an app that guides people to the answers to their legal queries with the help of flowcharts) and Lawtoons (a cartoon series on the basic laws of India). LawForMe has won the Innovating Justice award of the Hague Institute for the Internationalisation of Laws, 2014.

    A successful woman social entrepreneur with a string of achievements at a very young age, Kanan talks about her thoughts, ideas, experiences and advice to young social entrepreneurs and law students.

     

    Please introduce yourself to the readers telling us a little bit about your childhood and your background.

    I come from a traditional Gujarati family. Our family is one of the old families of Ahmedabad. My grandmother’s grandfather has been instrumental in starting the Gujarat Law Society. The importance of arts and culture has been instilled in me since my childhood. My parents made a conscious decision to put me in C N Vidyalaya, a Gujarati-medium Gandhian school which stressed on simplicity, self-reliance and authenticity as the way of life. Children are taught to spin the wheel (and make Khadi cloth by themselves), agriculture, carpentry. In fact, our uniform was also made of Khadi!

    A certain percentage of students came from nearby villages and their parents were farmers, daily labourers and the like. At the same time, there were students who came from well-to-do families and I grew up seeing inequalities all around me.

     

    You studied Law after B.Com from Gujarat University. Was studying law an event of chance or an effect of a deliberate plan? What inclined you to choose law?

    I always wanted to be a lawyer. Since I grew up questioning our unequal society, I wondered where did the answers lie and where does the buck stop? I saw that all our leaders were lawyers and that by getting the education in justice delivery, I can help create a fairer society.

     

    You have completed your Bachelor of Laws from the prestigious London School of Economics. How different is the style of teaching at LSE? Do they focus more on the practical aspects of law as compared to the NLUs?

    My exposure to the education system at NLUs has come from my younger sister, who studied at one of them. At LSE, the teaching methodology is highly analytical. Emphasis is put on the nature and need of law in the society and the ingredients of rule of law. The black letter law becomes the focus only after graduation – just before the graduate decides to take up the path of becoming a solicitor or a barrister.

     

    Why did you choose a foreign university to pursue Law instead of an Indian law school?

    While I was very clear about pursuing law, my parents wanted me to study law from a good university. I did apply for NLUs after my 12th standard, but at that time, the application system was different. Every university had a different application system. I only applied to NLSIU and NALSAR and frankly, did not make it to either.

     

    Tell us about your time at LSE. How was the academic pressure? Tell us about campus life at LSE. How difficult was it for you to adjust to a U.K. based education system?

    My time at LSE was fabulous – my horizons were expanded manifolds. Of course, the delivery of lectures and communication during the classes was very different and I had to adjust to the change in the teaching methodology.

    Along with studies, I slowly started involving myself in the extra-curricular activities on campus. I became the editor of the law society’s legal journal, started SPICE (Society for the Promotion of Indian Culture and Ethos) and also founded India Week – one of the prominent celebrations on the LSE campus – where we hosted Professor Amartya Sen and involved the Indian Embassy in the founding year. I was awarded the ‘Honorary Studentship’ by the LSE Student Union – which is awarded to 20 students in the graduating batch every year.

     

    What kind of internships did you do while you were an LSE student? Are there any remarkable experiences during your internships that shaped your career choices later?

    In the first year, I interned at Nishith Desai Associates in India and in the second year, I interned with the World Health Organisation (WHO) in Geneva.

    Honestly, the WHO experience was quite significant since I was able to meet and interact with a very different set of people, mainly health professionals, and I was able to have very in-depth conversations with them. There were many people from the USA, whom I found really open and friendly.

    At WHO, I was able to see how an international organisation functions and how it is able to create dialogue across stakeholders. I also saw how different countries could get themselves represented at the international platforms. This fascinated me and made me start thinking about policy work in India.

     

    How did you secure your appointment at the NKC? What was the nature of your work at the NKC?

    (After graduating from LSE, Kanan came back to India and worked at the National Knowledge Commission for a year. The NKC is one of the Prime Minister’s Advisory body.)

    After coming back to India, I was still looking at different options. My father encouraged me to apply for the National Knowledge Commission. However, I wondered how could I secure a place at such a prestigious institution? I wrote an email directly to Sam Pitroda (then head of the NKC) with my CV and to my surprise, he replied positively the very next day!

    Working at the NKC was an extremely enriching experience. I was able to travel across the country and work with a team of highly accomplished individuals driven towards the development of the nation. I worked on issues such as library development, entrepreneurship and traditional knowledge. It was at the NKC that I realised that in order to create a sustainable impact through any policy, law played a crucial role. I decided to start practicing law then.

     

    You left NKC and started your independent practice as an Advocate at the Gujarat High Court. Do you think that was the perfect time for you to go independent?

    Practicing law fascinated me. I believed that by gaining exposure to litigation, I would be able to see how law was actually implemented in the society. This became clearer after my NKC stint.

    I did not strategise the timing. It just felt like the right thing to do!

     

    How did you overcome your initial jitters in a courtroom full of experienced lawyers and judges? Tell us about the highs and the lows.

    The atmosphere in the court is indeed quite overwhelming and intimidating for any youngster. However, people around me constantly kept on asking me why I joined litigation after a law degree from LSE! There were also those who asked me whether I was actually serious about litigation or whether I was there to find a suitable partner for marriage.

    As a junior, I was lifting files and running around the courtrooms, keeping time for my senior lawyers lest their case comes up. I was quite disappointed at the fact tht this was how I had to start gaining the exposure.

    I was even more disappointed to see that ‘justice’ was so slow to attain – the entire machinery to deliver justice seemed quite inefficient and I saw how so many people had to wait for years to obtain justice. It was a question of their lives and they were going from pillar to post, and still they did not know what their rights were!

    There were so many different kinds of lawyers! I met lawyers who were part-time tailors or rickshaw-drivers and then there were those who owned a Mercedes or a BMW and had really fancy offices. Were their clients equally represented?

    I kept wondering why things were not moving faster. Did we really need all these difficult jargons and procedures for fairness to prevail?

    My experience in the court made me realise that something drastic had to be done to change the way the legal machinery operated and that’s how RFGI was born.

     

    Please tell us about your experience with your first few sessions in court. Has it become more difficult for a fresher to achieve success nowadays?

    How and when you get a chance to appear in the court depends on a lot of things. It depends on who is your senior lawyer – is he/she your relative? – if that’s the case or if you have good relations with your senior, then your chances to appear would be higher. Else, you might have to push the files for quite a while before you are actually entrusted with a matter. Usually the judges are quite encouraging to youngsters.

    The first case I got to argue was a case of the year 1982 where a bus conductor had sued the state bus company, because of whose negligence he had to get his leg amputated. The amount claimed was around Rs. 14,000 plus interest. I put forward my argument and got the judgment in the favour of the bus conductor, but when I tried to inform him about the outcome, I realised that he had passed away a few years ago.

    All these factors led me to start taking my work at RFGI seriously.

     

    Tell us about your “Management Matters Project’’. What was your role and responsibilities in this Project?

    (Kanan undertook this Project at London School of Economics, McKinsey & Co. [New Delhi] and also at Stanford University)

    When I was at LSE, I got through a project between LSE and McKinsey & Co. to assess the management practices of manufacturing companies across different countries. It was a fascinating project and I learnt a lot about management and what factors contributed to better management practices across geographies. I also saw how the national regulatory and physical infrastructure had an important part to play.

    When McKinsey wanted to roll out this project in India, I got involved and spent time in their Gurgaon office to help set up the initial team. Similarly, even at Stanford, I was invited to help train the first batch of analysts.

     

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    Tell us about the story behind RFGI. What challenges did you face to establish an institution like RFGI? What does RFGI do and what is your job profile in the think-tank?

    (Kanan went on to establish and head a think-tank called “Research Foundation for Governance In India’’. RFGI today consists of 3000 members, working on legal and political reforms in India.)

    As I mentioned before, it was my experience at the High Court that led me to create a platform to raise a voice about needing a change within the legal systems, which took form in the shape of RFGI.

    However, initially the idea was to bring together youngsters who wanted to create a change within the governance systems in India and the mandate was quite open ended. Youngsters from different backgrounds started getting involved on a variety of issues. We started organising public debates and conducting research studies on issues such as entry barriers to litigation (which was to understand what are the barriers junior lawyers face to establish themselves in litigation), understanding the status and need for inner party democracy in political parties, analysing the status of legal education among others. We started collaborating on projects with Accountability Initiative (at Centre for Policy Research), with some of the professors at IIM-A, Government agencies and also started to work with a large number of young political party representatives across party lines. Along with this, we started hosting interns from different parts of the world.

    RFGI became a hub of different thought processes and discussions on governance in the city of Ahmedabad and we started gaining accolades from various corners. We started going to different schools and interacting with children on laws and rights.

    Our work profile was to work on research, awareness and consultancy on legal and political reforms related areas in India and to involve youngsters in the process of governance. The entire organisation was working in the spirit of volunteerism.

     

    Besides working on RFGI, you have contributed your knowledge set as a consultant for members of Parliament of India. Please tell us about your time as their consultant.

    Our work at RFGI and our profile as lawyers wanting a change in the society got us to work with a Member of Parliament on drafting of a legislation. In fact, after my work at the NKC, I was involved with the Education Department of Gujarat in drafting of several bills and ordinances. Our work with the Member of Parliament was to draft a couple of private members bills. It was fascinating work and the impact that we could create with drafting of laws was far reaching.

     

    What prompted you to take an offer of teaching in spite of working full time for RFGI? What was your teaching methodology there?

    (Kanan taught Ethics in Business and Business Law as a Visiting Faculty to final year Business students in Ahmedabad University.)

    When I was approached specifically to teach ‘Ethics’, I was intrigued. The subject sounded fascinating and I thought it might be a great chance to learn something. Teaching Ethics really changed me. As a teacher, I have always believed in encouraging class participation instead of preaching. The boundaries of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ that Ethics forces us to delve upon makes you start questioning many of your pre-conceived notions. I challenged the thought premises of my students and tried making them better in tune with themselves.

     

    In between, you have also pursued Masters in Public Administration from IGNOU. What was the reason behind pursuing this course? Tell us about the course structure and the utility of this course.

    Since I was working in the field of governance, I wanted to have knowledge of the theoretical aspects of policy making and administration. Masters in Public Administration felt like the most relevant degree for me.

    Honestly, I was dabbling between an MBA (to understand how to grow a social enterprise) and an MPA. I also got the Fulbright Fellowship to pursue an MBA in USA but could not take up that offer due to unfavourable circumstances.

     

    Our readers would be keen to know about your recently started websites “LawForMe’’ and ‘’LAWTOONS’’. What led to the foundation of these two websites? What advantage can law students get from these two websites?

    I can’t express it in fewer words. I would request the readers to read: https://www.facebook.com/notes/579275265508546/ and here’s a brief about Lawtoons: http://www.hindustantimes.com/art/lawtoons-a-comic-series-to-teach-children-their-rights/article1-1281611.aspx

     

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    How does it feel to be well recognised at such an early stage in career? And how has your journey as a Social Entrepreneur and Legal Innovator been so far?

    (Apart from being an Acumen India Fellow, Kanan has won the Innovating Justice Award, (2014) and was also selected as an ‘Indian of Tomorrow’ by India Today (2012))

    Acumen’s India Fellows Program is addressing the country’s most pressing social issues by supporting a new generation of Indian leaders willing to challenge broken systems and develop new, inclusive solutions to create impact. Each year, the India Fellows Program brings together up to 20 emerging leaders from different regions, sectors, and socio-economic backgrounds in India. I am honoured to be selected as one of the 20 fellows this year.

    My journey as a social entrepreneur and legal innovator has been quite fascinating and often introspective. As they say, when you are on a journey to create a better society, it may also be a pathway towards your internal journey and vice versa.

     

    Starting RFGI and winning the Innovating Justice Prize are some of the milestones in your career. Tell us about your success mantra.

    Perhaps what has worked for me is that I focus on what work is to be done and not what I will get out of it. ‘Focusing on work as an end in itself’ is my mantra.

     

    Please tell us about your two books and how do you get time to pen for the daily newspapers and blogs?

    (Kanan is a regular blogger and columnist for The Huffington Post, Femina Gujarat, Daily News & Analysis and were a former columnist with Times of India (Gujarat). Kanan has also authored two books ‘Kanan Chan in Japan – Diary of an exchange student’ (2003) and authored a book of poems ‘Amara Manma’.)

    Since childhood, I have always loved reading and writing. Writing is a very introspective process and it makes me really happy when I write. It is easy to find time for something that you love! Plus, Ahmedabad being a less happening city, it leaves one with a lot of time to pursue their hobbies and interests!

     

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    How do you think knowing law benefits an entrepreneur? What are the prime hurdles that a non-lawyer entrepreneur is likely to come across?

    Being an entrepreneur is all about the will and the aptitude. Being a lawyer or a non-lawyer has little role to play. Of course, a lawyer is more attuned to understanding the regulatory process or has in-built analytical thinking. After that, it is the business acumen and the communication skills that create wonders. Introspection is also an important trait for any self-starter.

     

    What are your thoughts about raising capital for RFGI? Have you approached any Foundations?

    We believe that our work has potential to make significant impact. While money isn’t really a great motivator, we believe that through social entrepreneurial ideas such as Lawtoons and LawForMe, we will be able to sustain our work.

     

    When you hire people under you, what kind of skills and profile do you look for? How can law students or marketing students go about developing these skills?

    At RFGI, we usually invite anyone who has his/her heart in the right place. It is a platform to do good work and everyone is welcome! However, over time we have realised that most interns join because they want a certificate, which is such a shame. Now we have become far stricter in looking for the right fit.

    For legal interns, we look for interns who know the law and who respect deadlines. What is fundamentally important is that the person should have a belief about bringing a change in the legal system and creating innovations in law – to have his/her heart in the right place. Rest all can be taken care of.

     

    What does it take to be a Social Entrepreneur and Legal Innovator? What are the three great skills of an entrepreneur according to you? What differentiates the best from the rest?

    Honestly, I have always followed my heart and did what I thought was the right thing to do. It has not always been easy – but it has been worth it. Three great skills of an entrepreneur according to me are:

    • Knowing one’s self well (knowing what you stand for, your likes and dislikes and the non-negotiables as well as your limitations)
    • Knowing that you can be wrong too (humility)
    • Knowing that your dreams will come true

     

    How has the journey been for you as a woman entrepreneur?

    Somebody once told me that the value of RFGI is also because it represents the voice of a young female on governance and legal system. I consider this an honour. I think my journey has been exciting and full of interesting ups and downs. Being a woman entrepreneur has been both positive and negative.

    At times, I wonder what my journey would have been if I were a guy? Perhaps I would have been taken more seriously in our society, perhaps I would not have so many social pressures to fit into a specific box, perhaps I would have been a lot more aggressive in my work, perhaps my life would have been easier.

    But then, I feel that it is because I am a woman, I need to do what I do – even with more enthusiasm and self-belief.

     

    Your main object is to work towards legal reforms in India through Research Foundation for Governance in India, Lawtoons and LawForMe. Where do you want to see yourself five years down the line?

    5 years down the line, I see Lawtoons and LawForMe as flourishing entities, making laws and legal processes simple and easily understood. RFGI would of course be the umbrella organisation facilitating dialogue and discussion on access to justice.

    I also aim to see many more legal start-ups in India and a thriving ecosystem providing access to justice in India.

    I don’t know much about myself but about the legal system in India, I have so many dreams! I want to see a legal culture in India where justice is a primary value, respected and enforced fairly and efficiently. I want to see a culture of legal aid actively provided to those in need and where efforts are being made to make people aware about laws and rights. I visualise the legal climate where with the help of technology, access to justice has become easy, process faster and transparency is taken for granted. I don’t know if 5 years is too short a time for this dream to materialise but my efforts will continue in this direction for sure.

     

    Is there scope for legal internships in RFGI? If so, what is the process of application?

    We are highly selective about the interns we take. Please email info@rfgindia.org for internship opportunities.

     

    Tell us a bit about mountaineering. Did you take any hard-core training before climbing? Why have you chosen this hobby which needs maximum tenacity and mental strength?

    (Kanan has scaled Mount Kilimanjaro in 2012 and has travelled over 30 different countries.)

    While I am very passionate about my work, I am also thoroughly interested in traveling, sports (yes, I love playing tennis!) reading, knowing about different cultures and outdoor adventures. Being with nature is so important! Work is important but it is equally important, if not more, to grow as a person. The extra-curricular activities do make you a stronger and more composed person. Over time, I have also grown very curious about understanding human nature and I keep reading about it every now and then.

    I have travelled over 30 countries and have gathered so many interesting experiences. In fact, on my Japan trip alone, I have written a book called ‘Kanan Chan in Japan’! Perhaps Super Lawyer should do another interview with me to capture those insights! J

     

    What is your message for law students who aspire to be Social Entrepreneurs one day?

    “Follow your heart and take risks. You only live once.”

     

     

  • Himanshu Sharma, MBA Candidate, IIM Ahmedabad, on all about studying MBA from IIMA

    Himanshu Sharma, MBA Candidate, IIM Ahmedabad, on all about studying MBA from IIMA

    Himanshu Sharma is a recent graduate from Gujarat National Law University, GNLU (2015). In his final year, he cracked Common Admission Test (CAT) to secure his admission in IIM-Ahmedabad. During his time in Law school, he interned at FICCI in their Intellectual Property Facilitation Centre, New Delhi and was a judicial clerk working under Justice Kurian Joseph.

    In this interview he talks about:

    • His Law school experience;
    • His work at FICCI and with Justice Kurian Joseph; and
    • All about cracking CAT and getting through IIM Ahmedabad
    • Faculty, facilities and the atmosphere at IIM-A.

     

    Himanshu, tell us a bit about yourself.

    I am currently a student of PGP-1 (MBA in colloquial terms) at Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad. I completed my graduation from Gujarat National Law University, Gandhinagar in 2015 and joined IIM-A after a barely month long break. I am a native of Dharamshala (H.P.) and love spending my time reading and gaming.

     

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    Tell us a bit about your childhood and pre-college life. Did you have lawyers in your family?

    I grew up and attended school in the hill towns of Shimla and Dharamshala. My pre-college life was very calm and laid-back with not much academic pressure as such. I used to spend much time playing video games. Interestingly, I am the first lawyer in my family. My extended family comprises solely of doctors and teachers.

     

    Why did you decide to study Law? What inspired you to do so?

    Law as a career was not my first choice. I was a science (non-medical) student in Class XII and was keen on pursuing engineering post school. However, during my last year in school, I realized that Law as a career also interested me. So I prepared for CLAT as well. The CLAT rank turned out to be really good and my parents convinced me that for a person like me, Law would be a much better option than engineering as they believed my skills were more suited towards it. Looking back, I somehow feel that taking up Law was one of the best decisions of my life, as it exposed me to a much broader learning experience than what would have been possible pursuing engineering.

     

    How was your experience at GNLU, Gandhinagar? How did you go about your academics as well as extra-curricular activities? Were you into mooting?

    The five years at GNLU have been nothing short of fantastic. I met amazing people here, learnt from some of the best teachers and did almost everything possible under the sun that I felt like doing. Academics at GNLU was not much of a burden as the course was evenly spread out over the different semesters. Any difficulties that I faced were resolved with the help of teachers or friends and seniors. GNLU students are also lucky to have a very active extra-curricular life. Almost every fortnight there used to be some activity or the other, ranging from simple music nights to week long sports leagues. I took part in as many as I felt comfortable with. I was not much into mooting as getting into mooting is a serious affair and time and energy needs to be dedicated. I represented the University in only two national moots, once in my first year and the next time in my third year.

     

    How was your experience serving various student committees at GNLU?

    The only committee I served in GNLU was the sports committee, which was a very good experience as it led to bonding with many people I would not have known otherwise. Working for the sports community at GNLU was also a pleasure. Also, from the experience of seeing my friends work with various committees, I cannot stress enough the hard work put in by such committees for the benefit of students. Whether it is the SAC or the MCC or the LSC, they keep on working throughout the year for the betterment of the student community at GNLU.

     

    Give some insights of your internship experience at FICCI in their Intellectual Property Facilitation Centre, New Delhi.

    I interned at the IP Facilitation centre of FICCI, New Delhi as IPR has always been my favourite area of Law since a long time. The work there mostly comprised of research on various ongoing events in the IP sector. A substantial work assigned to me was the preparation of a course booklet on IPR for high school students, to introduce them to the basics of IP Law and their importance. The work turned out to be quite challenging as the booklet had to be designed keeping in mind the limited exposure to Law for the students. Overall, the internship was a fun and learning experience. The interns also got the opportunity to meet luminaries in the field of IP Law at times.

     

    You did a Judicial Clerkship at Himachal Pradesh High Court under Hon’ble Chief Justice Kurian Joseph. What is the process of application? What do you think contributed to your selection?

    Interning under Hon’ble Justice Kurian Joseph was a wonderful experience. One of my batchmates and I both applied through the Registrar of the High Court and both got selected for the internship. However, the final decision was taken by the Hon’ble Chief Justice himself after having a short conversation with both of us. It would be really difficult to quantify the criteria of selection but I think all that mattered were that we were confident and open to learning.

     

    What kind of assignments did you get and what was your nature of work as an intern?

    The assignments were almost always about some small technicality that had arisen in some matter being adjudicated by the Justice Joseph. Rather than the work though, it was the few small discussions we had with Justice Joseph in his free time that provided us with a much better understanding of various aspects of Constitutional and Administrative Law. The whole experience also contributed much towards my learning of our judicial system.

     

    You are also interested in sports and were a member of the University Sports Committee and University Basketball Team. Tell us a bit about it.

    Being involved in every co-curricular or extra-curricular activity is not of much use if the same is done just for the sake of it and is not enjoyed. I think students would be at no loss if they focus on say one or two such activities only, if they enjoy what they are doing. From the perspective of enhancing the profile though, especially from the perspective of attending a B-school later, taking part in as many co-curricular or extra-curricular activities as you can is beneficial in the long run, as thy help distinguish you from other candidates during admissions.

     

    What prompted you to choose MBA after graduation and why not an LL.M or a Law firm job?

    I had not even thought much about post-graduation till my 3rd year. But as the 3rd year was almost ending, I realized that I really did not have much enthusiasm in me towards a corporate Law firm job. I found corporate Law to be very procedural and mundane. Pursuing IP Law was another option for me, but I felt that it would restrict me to a very niche field. So I gradually drifted towards going for post-graduation. I did not rule out an LL.M. right away, but somehow chose to go for an MBA over it as it seemed to offer better benefits in the form of diverse learning as well as a different career path. A very close friend also played an instrumental role in motivating me for pursuing an MBA.

     

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    When did you exactly start preparing for the CAT? When should a person ideally start preparation for the CAT and other management exams?

    I started preparing for CAT and other entrance exams when I started my 4th year at GNLU. So essentially, I prepared for almost one and a half year. However, I would not say that this is the ideal time limit for anyone who wants to prepare for the same. I have seen people cracking CAT after preparing for just four to six months, while some have taken close to 3-4 years to get into a B-school of their choice. It all depends on the kind of effort a person is willing to put in. I took more time because I was not very comfortable with the Quantitative section. Also during the first year of preparation, I prepared at a leisurely pace, putting in approximately 8-10 hours of work in a week.

     

    Did you get yourself enrolled in a coaching institute? How valuable do you think coaching institutions can be for MBA?

    I enrolled myself in a coaching institute as soon as I started preparation for CAT. For me, it was very valuable as they provided a comprehensive set of study material and scheduled mock exams at regular intervals. Having classes regularly also helped me pace my preparation as per a fixed schedule and not lag behind in any particular topic. The input of the coaching institution was even more valuable while preparing for the interviews as they guided me very well on how to handle and be confident during all sorts of interview scenarios.

     

    Which coaching institute did you go to? Was it possible for you to attend every class?

    I studied at a coaching institute named ‘Endeavor Careers’, with the center located approximately 4 km from the University. The classes were scheduled on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays from 7-9 pm. There was a study room that was open 24 hours, 365 days a year. There was also a well-stocked library for the CAT aspirants to hone their English skills. Extra classes were also scheduled sometimes on weekends. Additionally, once the mock tests started, students were allotted slots for the same based on their preferences so as to avoid any clash with college schedules. I would say I roughly attended 90% of the classes, missing out mostly when I went for my internships or had some prior personal engagement. Backup classes were provided by the institute whenever students missed a class for a genuine application. Also, at the end of my 4th year, I opted not to go for internships and stayed in the University campus during May and June so that I could attend classes at the institute.

     

    How many hours did you put in for your preparations every day? Is it important to have a fixed schedule or weekly targets?

    As said earlier, it all depends on the person. For the first year, I would study a maximum of 2-3 hours a day. However, in the last six months, I studied anywhere from 4-8 hours daily, depending on my other workload. I had my fixed schedule only in the form of classes that I attended at my coaching institute. Other than that, I mostly stuck to determining weekly or fortnightly targets and then reaching them at my pace.

     

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    How did the other management entrance tests like MAT & XAT turn out to be?

    I took exams for other institutes such as XAT, IIFT, NMAT, etc. I cleared some of them while in some I did pretty badly. It all boils down to not losing your nerve and remaining calm when you have a set time limit to attempt a lot of questions. CAT however, gave me the chance to get into the best B-school of the country.

     

    CAT is one of the toughest management exams. How did you prepare and accustom yourself with these tough subjects?

    CAT can be said to be one of the toughest management exams, but all it requires is knowledge of English, High School level Mathematics, and Logical Reasoning. All these can be prepared easily over time. CAT anyways does not test the conceptual knowledge of candidates solely; rather it places more emphasis on the application of this knowledge. Then it becomes important for the candidate to have a calm and analytical approach towards questions, thinking about the best ways to attempt it, and not just approaching it in a conventional way.

     

    Which books/materials did you rely on while preparing?

    I only referred to the study material provided to me by my coaching institution for preparation, as it was more than sufficient to cover all topics.

     

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    Lakhs of people attempt the CAT exam and only a thousand get shortlisted for the interview and secure admission to a top B – School. Which are the prime skills and expertise required to crack the CAT?

    What my experience with CAT tells me is that in the end, what matters is your approach towards the exam, rather than your preparation for it. If you approach it with a calm and rational mind, you will crack it. Since wrong answers carry a negative score, it is very important to be confident of your answers. Questions can be tricky, generally the most obvious (but wrong) answer would be the first option. So you need to analyse a problem from all angles and be sure that you have not missed out on any important information. Also, I have seen many brilliant candidates faring badly in the exam because their nerves got the better side of them. Being calm and confident is thus the key to cracking CAT.

     

    What strategy did you take to crack the interview?

    I got approximately 22 days to prepare for the interview after the shortlist for IIM Ahmedabad came out. It was my first interview for any of the B-schools I had applied to and so I was quite nervous in the initial days. Over the days, however, I put in a lot of effort towards preparation and grew more confident. I read up a lot about the current events happening in the world, as well as our country. I had been reading newspapers regularly for the past couple of months so it was not that difficult. I also brushed up many of the subjects I had studied in Law school with the help of my friends and teachers. My coaching institute mentors also conducted many mock interviews with me, which helped a lot in getting a feeling of the real day.

     

    What kind of questions have you been asked in the interview? Give some tips to nail an interview in order to secure admission to a top B–School.

    For IIM Ahmedabad, the interview lasted around 30-35 minutes. The initial 20 minutes were spent on academic questions. In the very beginning, the interviewers asked me my favourite subjects in college (IPR and Constitutional Law were my answers). The discussion moved from the benefits of IP protection, to the Novartis case and finally to the newly formed NITI Aayog. The latter part of the interview was mostly about current affairs and how comfortable I was with solving a question on probability. There were also some general questions about my family, my taste in literature and movies, and a very unexpected technical question on basketball.

    For other institutes, such as XLRI or other IIM(s), the interviews were again broadly based on academics, current affairs and situational questions. What I feel is that for a B-school interview, firstly you have a decent hold of your academic subjects and world affairs, and secondly, you should be able to convince the interviewers that you are open to learning and will contribute to the institution.

     

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    Which subject interests you the most? Share with our readers.

    IIM Ahmedabad does not have any diversification between different streams. In the first year, all courses are compulsory, with optional courses being offered in the second year. As of now, I find myself interested in Consulting and Marketing.

     

    How is the academic pressure at IIM-A? What is a normal workday like?

    The academic pressure at IIM-A (or any other B-school) is much more intense than at a Law school. Classes here are from 8:45 am to 1:10 pm, five days a week. Most subjects use a case based approach to teaching, so the required cases for each class have to be studied and understood the previous day. Additionally, all the quizzes (tests as they are called here) are surprise quizzes, with a quiz being held one hour post its announcement in the afternoon. There is also work involved if a student is the member of any club or committee. A normal workday essentially involves reaching the class in time, waiting for a quiz announcement at 1:45 pm if any. Then it’s either giving the quiz at 2:45 pm or catching a few hours of sleep if there is no quiz. Evenings can be spent studying, playing or engaged in any other activity. Post dinner it is usually class preparation for the next day. A student cannot miss classes other than for health reasons or on account of some urgent work that requires so.

     

    Tell us a bit about the faculty and the facilities of IIM-A.

    The faculties with whom I have had interactions till now are experts in their respective fields of study, holding post-doctoral degrees. Classes here are interactive, with the faculty putting much emphasis on student participation. In terms of facilities, we have a 24 hour library, sports facilities for all major sports, gymnasia, 5-6 cafes (with room delivery available) in addition to the mess, single occupancy rooms and LAN connectivity in rooms (in addition to WiFi).

     

    Tell us a bit about the cultural environment at IIM-A. Are most of them young students or senior professionals?

    My batch here consists of a heterogeneous mixture of students from all sorts of backgrounds. There are freshers like me, while there are also students with 4-5 years of work experience. In addition to engineers, we have chartered accountants, commerce/ economics graduates and doctors in the batch. There is a healthy representation from almost all the states of the country. This results in a very diverse cultural and professional environment, which in turn greatly amplifies the learning experience of the students.

     

    What all activities can one partake of at IIM-A?

    There is no dearth of activities to take part at IIM-A. It is purely left to the choice of the students. There are clubs focusing on all sorts of activities, ranging from the likes of technology and finance to the likes of music/ movies and stargazing. There are also a lot of competitions in diverse fields of management to take part in. Additionally, students can also volunteer in social initiatives such as Prayaas and SMILE, both of which cater to providing education for underprivileged children.

     

    Where do you want to see yourself five years from now?

    Well, to be unabashedly optimistic, I would like to see myself as a partner of a consulting firm or in the senior management of an FMCG company after five years. However, to be realistic, my life at IIM Ahmedabad has just started and I would like to learn more about the opportunities available, before I decide on a career path.

     

    Would you like to be an entrepreneur after finishing MBA?

    Law and Management is one of the most potent combinations when it comes to economic activities as both are inextricably linked in the larger scheme of running businesses.

    As of now, I have not considered pursuing any entrepreneurial venture. However, IIM Ahmedabad has its very own Centre for Innovation, Incubation and Entrepreneurship which helps students pursue and kickstart their ventures. So in case I do get bitten by the entrepreneurial bug, I would be more than happy to pursue my own venture.

     

    What is your message for Law students who want to choose MBA as a career after pursuing Law?

    In India, MBA after pursuing Law is not very common, and I had had my shares of frowns and weird looks when initially I told people of my decision. Their usual reaction used to be that this kid has gone bonkers, an MBA is not for lawyers. However, I had the full support of my family and friends, who kept me motivated throughout my preparation period.

    I believe that an MBA is a very valuable degree especially for a lawyer, as each and every business is inextricably linked with Law in the larger scheme of things. Leading a business can thus be relatively easier for a person who understands the intricacies of the Law within which the business has to operate. Also, there are hardly any non-engineers and non-commerce students in Indian B-schools. Thus students with a background like Law or medicine are highly valued due to the diverse skill set they bring to the institution. If a person is keen on going to a B-school, he/she should just be sure about it and prepare with confidence. The Law degree will only help in later stages, and never be a hampering factor.

  • Charitha Shashiraj, LL.M Candidate, Harvard Law School, on all about Harvard and Magic Circle Traineeship

    Charitha Shashiraj, LL.M Candidate, Harvard Law School, on all about Harvard and Magic Circle Traineeship

    Charitha Shashiraj graduated from NALSAR, Hyderabad in 2014. She went for a Vacation Scheme at Linklaters and Allen & Overy and thereafter, secured a job at Linklaters, London. However, she chose to pursue an LL.M from Harvard Law School over the Magic Circle job.

    In this interview she talks about:

    • Application and the admission process at Harvard Law School
    • Faculty, facility and opportunities at Harvard
    • Application process and importance of vacation schemes in Magic Law Firms

     

    How did you choose law as a career option?

    I’m a first-generation lawyer in my family and when I was in school, like most people I harbourednotionsof lawyers as peoplewho milled around in courts in billowing black robes.So law was not something I had planned to doinitially, I was more of a math-and-science-freak. A friend of mine who was a year up in school convinced me otherwise after joining NLS.

    I think it was CLAT that brought home the point that law was as much about logic, reasoning and creativity as the sciences. And when I was cleared to go to one of the best law schools in the country at the time, I took it as a sign.

     

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    How was your NALSAR experience?

    NALSAR gave me opportunities that I know I would have found nowhere else and I cannot emphasize how grateful I am for it.

    I went to Singapore for an exchange programme in my third year, mooted at national and international moots, wrote papers, chaired editorial boards, taught the junior batches, interned at every opportunity and so much else, and did well at almost everything only because NALSAR gives us the resources and support to excel not just at academics, but at other things as well. Throughout law school, I learned to open my mind and question established norms in society. Activism and social change is a huge dimension of NALSAR’s education and while I might not always have been an active participant, I never failed to appreciate that it was the best part of law school. Ultimately, we had the best of everything- intellectual discussions peaked, top tier law firms in the country vied to take us, Magic Circle firms from London came down for interviews and the best universities in the world opened their gates for us.

     

    Tell us a bit about the Entrepreneurship and Business Law Diploma online programme from NUJS. How did it help you?

    The EABL course attracted my attention primarily because something of this nature was almost unheard of in Indian law schools. Law students are often heard complaining that there’s not much we draw from classes on corporate law when it comes to actually working in a law firm. In that respect, the EABL Diploma course was bound to be an immediate success- directly hearing from practitioners in the field and working through problems based on real transactions, that’s the only possible way learning in theory can transition into practice. I distinctly recall accessing some of EABL’s documents when I was working on a Banking problem in AMSS, to understand what related laws I should be looking into. The reading material was really impressive- it was concise and organized, yet comprehensive. It was incredibly helpful and I’d highly recommend it to anyone who’s looking to make a mark in the corporate law sector.

     

    Which firms did you apply to? What is the selection process in Linklaters and what does the firm expect from an Indian law student?

    I sat my interviews for Linklaters and Allen and Overy in the penultimate year of law school and eventually chose to go to Linklaters. That’s where I’ll be headed in September to start as a Trainee Solicitor. The key to securing a place in these firms is to think on your feet. The application process is much like your LL.M applications, but the interviews really test how fast and how creatively you think. Be prepared to answer HR questions that aimto test your skill set, which you will be asked to exemplify using various examples from your life. More important though is the technical interview, which would entail a basic working knowledge of how an M&A transaction works and what purpose a Due Diligence Report serves. Linklaters has a series of logical reasoning tests that you have to go through, the kind that CLAT tests you on. And a simulated exercise where you have to answer a set of emails within a stipulated time that gauges how you would, as a Trainee, respond to different and difficult situations in the firm. A&O has a similar exercise that requires you to peruse a DD Report in a particular time frame and answer questions about the transaction. The questions are definitely more logic than knowledge based but it does assume a basic understanding of corporate law. You also need to have some basic knowledge about the firm itself, its offices and some of the transactions that are currently ongoing.

     

    Please tell us a bit about your vacation scheme experience.

    In my personal experience, these Vacation Schemes were significantly different from Indian Internships. They genuinely care about giving you the best possible training and the entire internship is very structured and organized to the last possible detail. It is as much about you choosing them as they choosing you and they make every effort to impress you. You sit with the supervisor assigned to overlook your work throughout, so help is available at any and every point in time. Senior trainees and associates are more than willing to make time for you if you approach them for help, even if they have their hands full with their own work. Trainees do a lot of the paperwork once the decisions have been made, editing and sometimes even drafting the supplemental agreements, especially in the smaller groups. We attend conference calls and client meetings as well. There is plenty of opportunity to relax and catch up with colleagues during team activities, retreats and over evening drinks. You might have to put in some long hours on some days, but I think it’s worth the effort.

     

    After that, you went on to pursue LL.M. from Harvard Law School. What were the other universities of choice?

    Honestly, I was unsure whether I should continue to study further since I already had an offer from Linklaters. I decided that I would opt for an LL.M only if it was one of the best in the world and so I applied only to Oxbridge and Harvard, given their unparalleled reputation. Yale and Columbia would probably have been my other choices, if I had to choose more.

     

    Did you consider taking up a job in the USA itself? What were the opportunities available to you?

    I wanted to keep my options open, but most legal positions in the US require you to take the Bar Exam. There are certain basic courses that are pre-requisites to take the Bar but these cut significantly into the credits available for the academic year and prevented me from diversifying into courses that I was really interested in. Eventually, I decided that I didn’t want to forego the rare opportunity that Harvard afforded me – to study thought-provoking courses with stellar professors who in many cases are the world’s foremost experts on the topic. I was fairly secure since I had a job lined up already and in any case I preferred London’s more refined lifestyle to the American way of life. It was a hard decision I made at the time, but I think all in all a good one.

     

    What was the admission process for securing a seat at Harvard Law School?

    The admissions process for the Harvard LL.M proceeds in several stages. Applications are usually due sometime in November-December. Once the completed application is submitted, applicant’s recommenders receive emails requesting them to upload their recommendations to a secure web portal. Applicants will not be at liberty to view the recommendations but it is upto them to ensure that the recommendations are uploaded directly by the recommender withinthe specified deadline. Like most US institutions, you can use the LSAC services to send the required documents to Harvard. The LSAC is basically an integrated service that several top US institutions subscribe to. For a small fee, you can avoid having to mail/courier documents separately to each institution. The documents can (in some cases, have to) be sent to LSAC, where they will be vetted and sent out to the institutions of your choice.

     

    What do the selectors expect from an application of a law student at Harvard?

    The application itself is fairly straight-forward, divided into easily understandable sections that require the applicant to furnish personal details and highlight their personal achievements and work experiences. Needless to say, it demands a high level of competency and is a holistic review of your achievements right from high school tolaw school and any work experience gained subsequently. Ensure that you do a thorough job on the application andtake time to think through every major activity/achievement of your formative years. One thing worth mentioning in the application is the part that requires you to list the subjects you are potentially interested in studying at Harvard. Remember that it is no marker of what you might eventually end up studying once accepted into the program. My advice would be to think strategically and build an application based on an area that you have already worked and excelled in that would support your credibility when you evince an interest in pursuing an LLM.So an ‘area of expertise’, if you will, rather than an area of interest. For instance, I was interested in both Corporate Law and Gender Studies but had no significant experience in the latter. I think (though I might be mistaken) that chances at success would have been considerably lesser if I had indicated an interest in Gender Studies while my entire application screamed corporate law. Eventually, despite having had no previous exposure in that area, once I was accepted I chose to pursue Gender Studies. They want to see a carefully crafted application. And most importantly, they want to see what drives your decision to do an LLMso its imperative that you give them a compelling reason for wanting to do the LLM in the first place.Focus every aspect of the application on one area- it is also an indicator of how focused and organized you are as a person.

    Perhaps the most important part of the application is the essay that has to be written on a contemporary matter of the applicant’s choice. I would say that this should preferably be something related to what has been indicated as your area of interest. It should be creative, concise, cohesive, relevant and structurally sound. It might be this alone that sets you apart from the other applicants to Harvard, all of whom are assuredly high-achievers.

     

    How far do you think Harvard grants financial aid to foreign students? What is the procedure for obtaining such an aid?

    Should the applicant wish to apply for financial aid, there is a separate application that has to be filled and this would require the applicant to submit not just their financial status but also their parents’ financial details. Harvard is very generous with their financial aid, which can be in the form of a loan (not interest-free), a grant or a combination of both. Their aid is need-based, not merit-based like scholarships in general.

     

    What opportunities does Harvard provide to foreign students?

    The variety in the courses on offer at Harvard is unimaginable- there are over 400 courses to choose from- which are as broad as ‘International Law’ to niche topics like ‘Law and Neuroscience’. There are fascinating courses associated with literature and the arts, which can be extremely fun to explore, such as ‘Justice in Shakespeare’s Plays’ or ‘Music and Digital Laws’. There are theory-based courses for the thinkers and practical skill-based ones for the shooters. In addition to this, the LL.M allows you to cross-register with prestigious institutions like MIT or Fletcher as well as the other Harvard schools as a substitute for law school credits, a remarkable opportunity to reach out to non-law friends. LL.Ms generally opt for courses with a more international scope, but many of them looking to work in the US do prefer US-centric courses, both options are well catered to at Harvard. We sit our classes with the JD students; there are no courses that are exclusive to LL.Ms alone. Once again, this provides us with the chance to interact with a wider circle, and learn from the best of our contemporaries. Hands on experience can be gained through a variety of co-curricular and extra-curricular activities, including societies, lunch talks, guest lectures, demonstrations, clubs and most importantly clinics, where legal practitioners in both private and public services recruit students to engage in real ongoing deals. The most common refrain I’ve heard from every LL.M is that the nine-month course is bursting with activities that are far in excess of what its possible to do in that short period so make no mistake, it’s going to be a chaotic year.

    It’s not all studies either. There’s plenty of opportunity for day trips during weekends, and longer ones during the spring break. Sports, mooting, music and every other activity you can think of happens everyday. Harvard also sponsors activities like a wine-tasting club. So trust me when I say that anyone and everyone, no matter what your interests or inclinations, will find what they love at Harvard, academics or otherwise. It might seem overwhelming at times, but at any given point there are at least six people, including previous LL.Ms and current SJDs who have been officially assigned who you can approach for advice in any matter, not to mention plenty of other people who are always eager to help. Talk to people, make friends. Use the year well and “you will never again find a place in the world where you would have to seek out a hotel” – that was the first thing we were told during the orientation.

     

    Please tell us about how the classes are conducted in Harvard, what method of teaching is followed by teachers and what other things that makes Harvard distinct from other law schools?

    Classes can be in the form of courses (group of 80-100 students), seminars (group of 20 or so) or reading groups (groups of 12). The smaller classes understandably tend to be more intensive in terms of readings and discussions and they run into more depth in terms of subject matter. The bigger classes generally test you on exams, which can be both in-class and take-home, whereas the smaller ones expect everyday participation and daily/weekly reports and papers. You are also required to write an original 25/50 page LL.M dissertation to complete the course.

    It goes without saying that the professors and teaching methods are top-notch. Readings are more theory and case law based, and there’s very less statutory law relied upon. Most professors follow the Socratic method of teaching, something you rarely encounter in Indian law schools. Very few professors opt for lecture style teaching, most only lead ‘discussions’ in class. This means having to read what could possibly be hundreds of pages before every class and being prepared to answer questions on it if called upon. In my experience this tends to generate a more productive discussion, not only because students are more involved but also because I found their views are sometimes more refreshing and insightful than the professors. You would not expect JDs who have no law background to be so sharp, but their observations are fascinating- just to see the way they have been taught to think was incredible. If there is something I most admired about Harvard, it’s the liberty and free-thinking that it allows and encourages, something you tend not to find often in Indian law schools.

     

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    How does an LL.M degree help you after you graduate from Harvard?

    To be honest, the LL.M does not do much for your CV if you are looking primarily for a job in India, particularly in the corporate sector. Most people who pursue a Harvard LL.M are already experienced and accomplished and are looking to take a break from work or attempting to break into the US legal sector/international organizations. That said, Harvard is worth it even if purely for the experience and you learn a lot more in terms of life skills than academically. For me, Harvard was an intellectual pursuit, and suffice it to say that I couldn’t be more grateful that I made the decision to apply for it; my fellow classmates were undoubtedly the brightest minds in the world and every conversation, whether within or outside the classroom adds something of valueto your knowledge.

    There’s no doubt about the fact that Harvard opens up a world of opportunities. Most people subscribe to the NY Job Fair where top-tier law firms from all over the world interview candidates for various positions, similar to placement day in Indian law schools, only on a larger scale. I know a friend who sat 12 interviews in one day (still don’t know how he managed to do that). I’m limited in my knowledge of placements because I didn’t sit for one at Harvard. But I can assure youthat from the very beginning of the admissions process the Consultations Office at Harvard takes proactive measures to ensure Harvard students are aware of every opportunity available to them. If there is one thing you can be sure of, it is that no stone will be left unturned in trying to find you a suitable job. There are two offices that help students seek out jobs and they send frequent updates on openings in both private and public positions. Studentsgot placed at the World Bank, the UN, and every other premier institution onecan dream of.

     

    What made you opt for Gender Studies at Harvard? What all did you learn out of the course?

    My primary focus was on Gender Studies, with related courses in Constitutional Law to supplement it. I can’t say there was any particular incident that drove my decision, but law school in general had piqued my interest in this area. We generally study for 23-27 credits in the entire term. I took courses on Feminist Legal Theory, Sex Equality, Family Law, Comparative Constitutional law and the Fourteenth Amendment amongst others, all with a gender specific focus. Perhaps my best experience was with Sex Equality where I had the privilege of being taught by Prof. Catherine MacKinnon, a legend in the feminist movement who is considered world over as the pioneering figure in radical feminism. However, as far as my intellectual pursuit went, I think I was most passionate about Feminist Legal Theory, taught by Prof. Janet Halley who also supervised my LL.M thesis on the Hindu Joint Family. The course was wildly liberating, her brand of feminism is starkly different from usual accounts and I found myself questioning a lot of the previous assumptions I had about it. Having never had any formal education in feminist literature previously, I was amazed at how much there was to it.

    Apart from the usual courses for credits, we also have the opportunity to sit in on classes just as an observer and that’s a real advantage. With the prior permission of the instructor, we can learn from the entire gamut of famous Harvard professors. Not to mention the multiple guest lectures that happen on an everyday basis, with famous personalities like Mitt Romney, Justices Elena Kagan and Scalia, and Justice Albie Sachs in attendance amongst others. To hear them speak and learn from them first hand was an unforgettable experience.

     

    Do you intend to do pursue higher studies at any point of time?

    At some point I also intend to study further, and do a PhD. Harvard offers you the opportunity to do an SJD which is the equivalent of a PhD but it is a five-year course as against the usual 3 years in the UK. It is however, extremely selective and niche since the candidates are chosen largely from the previous LL.M batches. I was keen to continue with the same and my supervisor was equally eager but eventually, I thought the time commitment seemed too much. Having never had any significant work experience before I thought it’s high time I gain some exposure now. I will probably apply to Oxford or Cambridge for a PhD soon.

     

    Would you like to leave some message for our readers?

    Try to do the best at whatever you do. Most people suggest that you should find and follow your passion, but throughout my life I’ve learnt to be passionate about anything I do; whether it is something I really wanted to do has been a secondary concern. Accept that you will not always get what you want, so its important to not be disillusioned by this; rather, take every opportunity you getand work at it with the same zeal you would have for your dream. I’ve always lived by this principle and I think I’ve been the happier for it.