Ajar Rab graduated from National Law School Of India University, Bangalore(2006-2011). At present, he is a partner at Rab & Rab Associates LLP, Dehradun and his work ranges from civil litigation, arbitration and corporate transactions.
He is also an international policy consultant at Lexidale and a Non-Resident Expert at Vidhi where his work includes review of existing laws, policies and regulations, drafting of policy documents, amendments, rules and regulations and research on comparative policy.
In this interview he talks to us about:
His experience at NLS, Bangalore.
His decision to pursue with a dual degree- LL.M. and MBA from Germany.
Skills one must require to become a legal consultant.
His views on how Indian Universities may improve the education regime.
How would you like to introduce yourself? Tell us a bit about your childhood and pre-college life.
I am a lawyer who grew up in the small hill station of Mussoorie where I studied at St. George’s College. My school lay great emphasis on extra-curricular activities and I was an active debater and loved playing sports. I was very lucky to find good friends with whom I have the fondest memories.
What motivated you to choose law as a career?
My parents are also lawyers. My father is a designated senior advocate at the High Court and my mother has spent over 37 years at the trail courts. I guessed I absorbed things like a sponge, never really seeing the big picture directing my interest in law. Though my parents never told me to become a lawyer, somehow their experiences and narrations about court cases and clients generated a keen interest in law.
Please share your experience at National Law School of India University, Bangalore, especially as the first student to be elected as President of the Student Bar Association in absentia.
I feel very lucky and privileged to have had a chance to study at NLS Bangalore. The place changed me for the better and I feel I am an entirely different person, pre and post college. One of my seniors, Nizam Pasha, who was in his final year when I joined, told me “Law School is a land of opportunity” and I don’t think I have better words to describe the place.
My election to the SBA, while I was on exchange, was sheer benevolence of my batch and my close friends. I am truly grateful to all of them for believing and in me and convincing the others who did not at the time. My term at the SBA was full of various highs and lows. I have no hesitation to admit that it changed my world view forever. I learnt a lot about strategy, politics, negotiation and public perception – something we have to deal with daily as lawyers.
Why did you decide to pursue higher studies? What was your motivation?
Working for the general corporate team at Amarchand, I developed an interest in corporate law and transactions. During my time at law school, I always believed I wanted to do only litigation but after working for year, I realized I did not know enough about transactional lawyering so I wanted to pursue higher studies to educate myself.
Why did you pursue with a dual degree- LL.M. and MBA from Germany? Why Germany and not some IVY League University?
I chose the Master of Law and Business program at Bucerius Law School/WHU Otto-Beisheim School of Management, which to my mind, was a unique blend of law and business management, geared towards international commercial transactions. The faculty profile included some of the biggest names in academics and industry and the course outlines were structured as practical applications of concepts rather than mere theory. I guess that seemed like the right fit to learn more about the ins and outs of transactions, both from a legal as well as a commercial perspective.
Do you think that the Indian Law Universities need a change to match up to the standards of foreign Universities? What can be done in order to make NLUs more conducive for learning? How do you think Indian Universities may improve the education regime?
Definitely, the gap between Indian Law Universities and foreign universities is quite big. I feel our traditional style of classroom instruction is out dated with the dynamic application of concepts we learn in class. Exercise oriented class room discussions are far more fruitful for understanding the theory and applying them. At my masters, our professors gave us case studies which are used in IVY league institutions and we were tested on our analysis and conclusions, rather than simply answering theoretical questions in an examination. I think our universities can adopt a similar approach, but my caveat is that our system of school education should also change to accommodate that kind of learning.
What are the skills one must acquire to become a legal consultant?
I think every lawyer is a legal consultant to some extent. The distinction here is more on lawyers who handle litigation in Courts and those that are involved at policy levels or at the level of legal strategy. I don’t think the skills required to become a legal consultant are very different or unique, just that as a consultant, especially a policy consultant, needs to have the broader picture in mind with respect to the ramifications of their advice in various areas.
Share your work experience as the first law firm of Uttarakhand.
I consider myself lucky that our firm has had very versatile experience, in terms of the nature of work and the kind of clients. It is not so say that we did not struggle at the beginning but my seniors and friends have been very kind to refer various matters and as a result though it has been only 5 years since my brother setup the law firm, we have represented some of the biggest names in the country such as the Aditya Birla Group, Birla Tyres, Hyatt group of hotels, Rakesh Roshan, Viom Networks etc., for litigation as well as corporate transactions.I guess the cliché holds true “I get by with a little help from my friends”.
What were the reasons behind leaving Amarchand&Mangaldas and moving to Dehradun?
I learnt a lot at Amarchand but left to pursue my masters. Moving back to Dehradun is a question I am regularly asked about and have been defending since the time I left Amarchand. My brother had already setup a law firm,Uttarakhand was a promising State and there was scope of transactions here. With my experience, I felt moving back would add to our areas of practice and we will be able to service clients within Uttarakhand and outside if we provide quality legal advice.
What kind of work you are entrusted with as a non-resident expert?
My stint with Vidhi has been brief but I was part of a team which was drafting amendments to the Food Safety Act and its Rules.
Many law students aspire to secure a job. What do you think most are doing wrong, from your observation? Please give our readers some tips to nail an interview.
I think sometimes we tend to over sell ourselves and also forget that the person who is interviewing us has also been on the other side of the table. There is no substitute for sincerity and honesty in an interview. One other thing is that students tend to estimate their value by the size of the pay package being offered. I don’t think that is necessarily true. A pay package is a management decision considering various other aspects and costs than just someone’s qualifications and value. Moreover, freshers applying for a job tend to forget that even though they did really well in law school, practicing law in real life is a different ball game altogether – an experience they definitely lack. The aim early-on should to be take a job which allows maximum exposure and experience, rather than a fat pay cheque.
Lastly, what would be your message to our readers who are mainly young lawyers and law students?
Law is a field which requires immense patience and experience. We all aspire to be like Mr. Nariman, Mr. Singhvi or Mr. Rohtagi, but we forget how long they have been in practice. They have a name and charge a fee after decades of being in practice. Students today tend to want a similar lifestyle straight out of law school, which leads to frustration. If the aim is to grow your knowledge of law day-by-day, be better lawyers and work towards your clients’ best interests with utmost dedication, I think we all may land up being where the big names are, but only in due time.
Gulika Reddy is a lawyer in the High Court of Madras, a consultant at the Centre for Child and Law at National Law School of India University, an International Bridges to Justice Fellow and the founder of Schools of Equality. She graduated from ILS Law College in 2011 and since then has worked extensively in the field of human rights, crusading for the rights of women, children, climate refugees and various other victims of discrimination and injustice.
In this interview, she tells us about:
Human rights law – the areas she works in and why.
The International Bridges to Justice Fellowship
Schools of Equality
Advice for law students wishing to pursue Human Rights Law.
Which areas of human rights interest you most and which human rights abuses are you most interested in working to address in your career, and why?
Social groups have been divided on the basis of various facets of identity including race, gender, sexuality, class, caste and religion, resulting in violations of individual or group rights merely due to one or more aspect of one’s identity. Growing up in India, I felt anger at the normalization of this form of social injustice. Since my life experience is closely tied to my gender, related issues were those that resonated most strongly with me. Compounding this was the social acceptance and general sense of apathy towards gender-based violence in India. My untested belief that knowledge of law was empowering and a powerful instrument for social change motivated me to go to law school.
After I graduated, I began practicing in the High Court of Madras and soon realized that in India legal responses have neither reduced its occurrence nor have they improved access to justice for victims. In spite of protective legislations, millions are unaware of their rights, conviction rates are abysmal and attitudes within the judiciary prevent rather than promote justice. Examples of judges telling victims of abuse to “adjust” to their circumstances and suggesting rape victims mediate with or marry their rapist as a form of compromise expose inadequacies in the current system and make evident the need for a change. I have been working towards facilitating this change through interventions in the legal and education system.
You are the recipient of two fellowships the International Bridges to Justice fellowship. Describe the kind of work you’ve done as a part of the fellowship.
While practicing in the High Court of Madras, it became apparent that several other challenges exist which lie outside the ambit of litigation.These relate to lack of rights awareness, inadequate access to affordable and sensitized counsel and ineffective implementation of the law. To address these issues, I began to advise non-profits that work in the field of human rights alongside my litigation practice. In recognition of my work, I was awarded a Fellowship by International Bridges to Justice, which allowed me to scale up my efforts.
Using the fellowship, I set up a collaborative program that brought together non-governmental organizations (NGOs) andacademic institutions and to organize periodic rights awareness programs and dispense free legal aid forindigent and marginalized women. I also set up a pro bono network of lawyers to provide free legal aid for these women in prison, most of whom were sex workers who had been coerced into the sex trade and then abandoned by their families due to the “shame” associated with the trade.
What motivated you to start Schools of Equality? How would you describe the work that it does?
Despite receiving free legal assistance, women at the awareness workshops expressed reluctance to approach the legal system, as they felt further victimized by the judicial process and functionaries under the law. To encourage functionaries to act with sensitivity and a sense of urgency, I conducted training and sensitization programs with human rights lawyer, Ms. Geeta Ramaseshan.In spite of our efforts I observed that attendees were unable to shift deeply entrenched attitudes towards women. It became apparent that the insensitivity present within the Court system was symptomatic of widely held beliefs about women and gender roles in society.
Recognizing that gender socialization begins early and is reinforced by societal institutions, culture and media, I started Schools of Equality, an organization that runs activity-based programs which aim to shift social attitudes that perpetuate gender-based violence. The program encourages students to question notions of power related to gender and its intersectionalities like caste, class, religion and sexuality; to understand the right of choice; and to respect each other’s rights.As a part of the curriculum, they learn about their rights; interact with social justice movements, lawyers, artists, writers, photographers, musicians, performance artists, and therapists; frame their own opinions; learn creative modes of self-expression; and take action to build communities of respect.
What is the format of the program?
Our year-long programme has been incorporated within the mainstream school curriculum. We organize one session a week conducted by a trained facilitator, who exposes the students to a variety of approaches to equality, allowing them to frame their own opinions. Our team of facilitators come from a variety of backgrounds including law, film, journalism, art, education, psychology and theatre. This year, the sessions in the first term focussed on examining issues of identity and stereotypes. Sessions in the second term will focus on creating rights awareness and discussing the impact of media and popular culture on equality and social justice and the final term will see students draft their school constitution, plan campaigns and organise events within their local community.
How have schools responded to the programme? Can you include quotes or testimonials from schools?
Although it was challenging to introduce this curriculum within the existing conservative school system, transformation amongst the students and action taken by them within their communities captured the attention of other schools, the national media and the local government. The local government in Chennai and Kadapa district in Andhra Pradesh appreciated this approach to addressing social justice issues and have now introduced the program in government schools at the city and village level.
We have received extremely positive feedback from teachers, parents and students we work with. Here are some of the responses:
Teachers: “Schools of Equality provides a safe and empathetic platform for students to talk about the most essential yet sensitive, so-called forbidden topics in society…helping students become resilient and global citizens, aware of their rights”
“It’s so nice to see the space you have created for them (the students) where they feel comfortable to speak. They’ve opened up and seemed more confident in their own skin. For some of them, the transformation has been so positive that it’s difficult to even recognize them anymore.”
Parent: “I have been hearing about Schools of Equality from my son. I feel you have made him feel empowered and I see him empathize as well.”
Students:
“I liked all of us interacting and talking about each other’s problems and also realising what empathy is and how much it matters.”
“The questions asked in this class were thought-provoking and intriguing. This class was very useful to us.”
“Schools of Equality has changed the way I view everything.”
What is your vision for the role human rights law and lawyers should play in promoting social justice?
My vision is a human rights framework that provides a robust mechanism to bring national government responses closer to their international commitments. While it is important to carefully assess and arrive at a human rights framework that sufficiently represents all stakeholders, what is even more critical is ensuring states’ compliance with the same.
We have multiple actors and agencies, working on the global issue of social injustice in different locations, at different paces, and none free from partisan politics. Rights on paper are insufficient in the absence of genuine participation in what needs to be a collective effort to deal with issues of social justice internationally. Therefore, while framing law, equal emphasis must be laid on creating fundamental enabling conditions that will aid effective implementation. This will involve building collaborative networks, facilitating coordination between state and non-state actors and conducting training and capacity building to prevent and respond to social justice violations.
Also, lawyers must look beyond formal legal structures and be innovative and creative in developing interventions along with experts in other disciplines. These interventions must appreciate the embededdness of social injustice issues within the larger socio-cultural context, and must involve community engagement to address it at the interface of law and society. Only a multi-pronged approach that is designed with a clear understanding of this systemic problem, the factors that have contributed to it and the societal and institutional roadblocks that contribute to its perpetuation will help address issues of social injustice.
What advice would you give law students wishing to pursue a career in Human Rights Law?
Prof. Bhavani Prasad Panda is the Vice-Chancellor of Maharashtra National Law University, Mumbai. He graduated in LL.B from Lingaraj Law College, Berhampur, Orissa in 1979. Thereafter he went on to pursue higher studies in different disciplines of law.
Prior to his present designation Prof. BP Panda has held 16 other educational seats in various law institutes of India. He found his place as the Principal of NBM Law College, Professor of WBNUJS, Principal of Lingaraj Law College, Dean, Faculty of Legal Studies (BU), Chairman, Board of Studies Law, BU among others. He has numerous publications and has been an active member of different academic, executive and financial councils of various institutions till date.
In this interview we talk about –
Studying Physics in his graduating years at SKCG College, Odisha.
His journey through Behrampur University, Odisha – as a student and later as an academician
Being the Vice-Chancellor of MNLU
Case study of “Super-Cyclone”: a major research conducted in the aftermath of the 1999 disastrous cyclone in Odisha.
Journey from Assistant Professor to Professor at WBNUJS
Advise to the future legal academicians of India
Tell us about your educational background before college as well your graduation years at SKCG College, Odisha.
My early childhood education was conducted at the Government school of Paralakhemundi, Gajapati District, Odisha. Later on up to intermediate studies got educated at Visakha Tutorial College and at the very reputed Mrs. AVN College of Visakhapatnam in Andhra Pradesh.
I studied graduation with physics honours from S K CG College, Paralakhemundi, Gajapati District, Odisha. and remained active in college politics during the emergency period of 1975-76. Failed to get good score at B.Sc (Hons.) consequently, also failed to get a seat in M.Sc Physics at the local University. And due to financial difficulties could not go to other universities to pursue Physics. Under ‘no way out’ situation joined LL.B. at Lingaraj Law College, Berhampur University with a lot of hesitation, reluctance and guilt. Nobody at the house appreciated my joining Law College. My family members expected that I should study science and get into a good job.
How did your interest gravitate towards law?
Adding to my ill mood for joining law, the law college was located in a shabby, dilapidated building in a hospital premises, reflecting a nauseate feeling of the surrounding. The college used to function from 7:00AM to 12 Noon with hardly 2 (two) professors on its roll. The whole environment at Law College was far from academics and my previous experience of educational institutions with best of institutional structure. However, in the damp atmosphere after resigning to my fate started attending classes, soon I got involved with legal education and also once again became active in college politics for obtaining better amenities, facilities, environment and making issue for increasing number of teachers to the college.
You completed your LL.B from Behrampur University, Odisha. Tell us about your law school journey.
Formerly, being a student of Physics there were many advantages like groomed to be analytical, logical, practical and disciplined. These learning habits when invested on legal education there were encouraging returns. The books of law, literature, political theory inspired me very much for getting seriously involved in legal education. Reading books of literature, and political science at the law college library was a rare opportunity for a physics student. Soon I realised that there is enough world beyond physics and science, and learning law and studying political science is more nearer to understand life, society and the state craft. Within few months at the Law College, it appeared that the Law College Library is a luxurious space that propelled the appetite for knowledge. Thrilled by the first lessons of law, jurisprudence, political theory started reading biographic of legal luminaries and political scientists. Pleasure of reading books doubled with reading of conceptual basis of the state, citizen and the law. This was a sort of self relishing, and purely a voluntary involvement. Developed unconsciously a habit that after reading a book, to search for someone and narrate what has been read, before reading another book. Soon created a circle where the political issues, jurisprudence were debated passionately. So also reported judgments were argued as if things happened there and the impacts can be many.
The legal education appeared to be the real subject and precisely for which I was meant. I felt tremendously satisfied that I was studying law. Often entered into debate that legal education and legal profession is meant far more responsible persons with flair in social work, statesmanship; and it is holistic scholarship with heritage of literature, politics, sociology, economics, history and skills of advocacy. But unfortunately in India pupil join to law when they find rejected elsewhere. Sometimes I was successful in convincing people with my arguments and sometimes I used to return to study more to logically establish my point.
To supplement the economic needs, part time tuition to school children up to +2 level were taken up and learned to be independent without bothering parents about finance, as many of the students in Odisha do.
We know you have been a consistent top scorer in all subjects. Tell us a bit about it.
At the end of the first year of Law, it came as surprise for scoring highest mark in four subjects out of six and got nominated as the best student of the law college. Teachers became friends and got opportunity to spend more time among teachers’ company. During the second year of LL.B, I started taking interest in teaching the first year students as and when the concerned teacher of the class remained absent. I always waited for the opportunity to teach in the classroom at junior class, and was accepted by friends for the purpose and started training colleagues for moot-court, other academic competitions as well as assisted friends for competitive examinations.
The inputs of labour to legal studies were hardly anything compared to studying physics at graduation level. From the remote distant of Berhampur, Odisha, the law college made it’s presence feel by bagging prizes in national moot-court competitions. At the end of 3 year LL.B studies, bagged all the gold medals meant for LL.B.
As a student of LL.B, with a mission to change the stigma to the prevalent legal education that is mired with mass-copy, last-option course, and things like that, I participated actively in college politics and got elected as President of the Students Union and achieved reformation in the examination system made it free from much tainted malpractice at Berhampur University. The State Government and the University Authorities were compelled to construct a new building with holistic infrastructure facilities for the Law College. The foundation stone was laid and accordingly a new building of the Law College was built, as a constituent College of Berhampur University, Odisha.
After the successful completion of your LLB degree, you obtained numerous other courses as well. Can you tell our readers about your timeline after Behrampur University?
I joined M.L at Andhra University College of Law in the year 1980, and after completion of the academic period of study, found it difficult to cope up with economic needs. Joined as a Commercial Executive in New Delhi, with M/s. Desein – Indure Group of Companies and got exposed to the industrial and commercial world in the country (1982-87).
During my period in Delhi, I obtained ‘Diploma on Corporate Laws and Secretarial Practices’, conducted by Indian Law Institute, New Delhi; (1982-83) and also studied M.A. in Politics at Andhra University by private appearance (1983-85). However, there prevailed an inner calling to get back to legal education/profession.
In the year 1987, with little struggle, I obtained the LL.M degree from Andhra University and decided to join litigations at Visakhapatnam, giving up the alluring job at Delhi, enrolled as an I advocate to practice at Visakhapatnam. More than the practice at the Court, the local Private Law College teaching assignments provided me satisfaction and I soon joined as the Principal of the NBM Law College.
While you were the Principal of NBM Law College, you had the opportunity of meeting Prof. Madhav Menon. Can you share your experience with our readers?
During those struggling (1988-94) years of making a quality Law College, I got the opportunity to meet Prof. N R Madhava Menon who practically provided a new orientation to the mission of life and the concern for legal education. In the refreshers course at NLSIU Bangalore, Prof. Menon gave all the participants a forum and provided an opportunity to interact with the legal luminaries of the country like Prof. Upendra Bakshi, Prof. N L Mitra, Prof. Ranbir Singh, Prof. B B Pande, Prof M P Singh, Prof. Chandrsekahran Pillai, Justice Krishna Iyer, Justice Hidayatullah, Justice Venkatachaliah, Advocate Ram Jethmalani, Advocate K K Venugopal, Advocate F S Nariman, Advocate Ranjit Mohanty and many others.
Professor Menon was perhaps least knowing that he was creating so many future Vice Chancellors like Balraj Chauhan, Gurjit Singh, B L Sharma, S K D Rao, B Nagraj, N K Chakraborty, V Hemalata, L Jaisree, Faizan Mustafa, including me.
We were all so fortunate to follow Prof. Menon both by letter and spirit. All of us value the learning at NLSIU, Bangalore which was of great help.
Later you enrolled for Ph.D working for “Adolescent Offenders” in 1990. Tell us about your experience.
I accomplished my Ph.D work in the year 1994. It was a total involvement for conducting research about adolescent offenders undergoing sentence at Visakhapatnam Borstal schools. I still feel the Borstal school system of reformation of adolescents up to the age of 23 is more mature and better system of institutionalisation and reformation compared with much acclaimed juvenile justice system. The country has not given free and fair opportunity to Borstal School System and is being neglected to perish under the eclipse of JJ Act.
Amongst your accomplishments in the legal journey, academia has been in the forefront. What were the platforms which contributed to this journey?
My best years of teaching and academic administration were at NBM Law College, Visakahapatnam, it provided a platform for me to experiment everything what I felt best with legal education including classroom teaching/ lectures. I found some of my school time teachers and schoolmates joined in the evening college, and were all committed to attend my classes. It gave me pride and satisfaction. The college made a record progress and best students of the area joined to enhance the credibility of the law college.
In 1994 joined as a Senior Lecture in Law at a premier University – Utkal University of Odisha. The M.S. Law College being the first Law College in Odisha manufactured about 90% of Advocates at the Odisha High Court, 80% of the Judges at the High Court and the subordinate Judiciary and also provided law degrees to 70% Legislators in the State of Odisha. But the College remained far behind to contribute any quality legal education. During the days of service struggled hard to change the environment for Faculty Members coaxing them to enrich with greater exposure and wider participations in Law Seminars and Conferences. Also struggled to initiate the All India Bar Council Moot Court Competition, at Cuttack which somehow could conclude in 1996, this to register the college name in the national list.
In 1996, joined as a Reader in Law at Post-graduate Department of Law, Berhampur University and actively participated in academic activities to modernise the prevalent out-dated courses and syllabus being taught and got occupied with the University System of Administration.
In the year 2000 joined NUJS Calcutta, as a Founding Teacher along with Professor N R Mahdava Menon to establish the National Law University. It was a great experience to work with Prof. Menon in the founding days of NUJS Calcutta. In 2002 after availing the lien period joined back to Berhampur University and this time worked hard to contribute to the development of the Lingaraj Law College. It was an amount of satisfaction to join as the Principal of the Law College, where I was a student, but there the struggle for quality development was much more. There was a little cooperation from any side. As a student leader achieved more success than as a principal of the law college. Dissatisfied returned back to the Post –Graduate Department of Law, Berhampur University.
Quickly finding little leisure time, I got engaged in conducting post-doctorial research studies and completed the work in 2006 obtaining LL.D degree from Berhampur University.
In the year 2008, after a renewed association with Prof. M P Singh, joined NUJS Calcutta, for a second stint after obtaining two years lien from Berhampur University, and actively participated in University activities both academic and administration.
In 2010 returned back to Berhampur University. Found it hard to contribute to the newer challenges to legal education and corresponding deterioration in educational standards vis-à-vis growing challenges participated actively in University general administration until 2014.
I took voluntary retirement to assume charge as Vice-Chancellor of MNLU Mumbai on 10.10.2014.
How did you strategize your work on legal research?
During the time I enrolled for PhD there were very few research guides available to provide the direction and supervise research work to its logical end.
Research in law for an academician is a must; we learned the first lessons about research at Professor Menon’s Workshop. Little learnt and much unlearnt but with a great zeal to contribute to society with legal knowledge enrolled for PhD.
Legal Research by itself a separate discipline and methodology was not fully grown. Every research teacher explained the conduct of research and thesis writing in quite differently, mostly bookish or very confused. The practical implementation of the learning from most of the teachers was very difficult or impossible.
I spent quite some time in contemplating how to start legal research. I read many books of sociological methods of research as I was planning to do research in criminal law, and I was not getting a clue how to go about – choosing topic, defining the research problem, setting goal and designing the research. I started diving straight into prison studies and later focused on adolescent offenders at Borstal School of Visakhapatnam. Read more and more existing literature on young adult offenders from books of criminology and law. It happened on its own motion that I could identify the research problem and formulated hypothesis and realised the roadmap of the research terrain. Essentially, research is an individual personal scholarship and involvement and there can never be any fixed straight jacket method and finite prescription from any supervisor. I realised why the teachers were so different and incoherent. It has to evolve creatively on one’s own involvement and provide strength of logic and reasoning to defend the thesis that is being advanced.
I was happy to contribute a unique work on adolescent offender in legal research. My involvement was little bit more than mere legal research work for PhD and emotional involvement with the staff, administration and inmates of Borstal School at Visakhapatnam. I continued to argue for eulogising the working of custodial system where any youth in conflict with law however heinous the crime may be put to reformation model maximum up to the age of 23years and was then allowed to assimilate in the mainstream of the society. The current controversy of 16-18years age group of juvenile stands fully addressed in the system, but unfortunately in India we never explore all the sentencing options before passing an order. Most of the legal fraternity do not know what the Borstal School System is about. The institution is under eclipse of Juvenile Justice System clout. I still hold that the young adults need be reformed in a specially designed institution like that of Borstal School System under Correctional Administration. The prison system cannot be condemned as ‘jail for penal action for hardcore convicts alone’. We need to change our prison into Correctional Houses.
Please tell our readers about the case study behind the ‘the Super Cyclone’ of 1999 in Odisha. Also tell us about your interest in ‘Disaster management studies’.
I was disturbed, and developed interest in observing the recovery phase and the human rights aspect of relief operation. The tragedy after super cyclone is more horrible. Crime rate increased. Hunger coupled with poverty loomed large. Funds were mismanaged. There were politics of funding and certification of ‘State v. Natural disaster’. There has been politics of centre and state in relief funding etc.
In 2000, soon after the Bhuj Earth Quake, Professor Madhava Menon assigned me with the work to make a case study of ‘Super Cyclone’, provided financial support for the project. Over next two years along with the work at NUJS Kolkata and Berhampur University devoted all extra hours to study on Super Cyclone and its various facets of devastation and legal support mechanism; conducted seminars and workshops and finally submitted a comprehensive report on ‘Case Study of Super Cyclone’ to NUJS Kolkata. In 2005, the Disaster Management Act was enacted, where the students and faculty of NUJS have contributed with the inputs of experience from Odisha Super Cyclone and Bhuj Earth Quake.
In 2005-06, at Berhampur University designed and offered one year Post-Graduate Diploma programme in Disaster Management, and I was surprised to see some of the students got appointed as safety officers in certain establishments.
‘Disaster Management Studies’ became my new found hobby. In October 2013, Odisha was struck with another very severe cyclonic storm called as ‘Phailin’. I was eager to serve the state in terms of offering schemes for ‘impact reduction’. And closely followed the state action for pre-emptive measures, Odisha was more matured after Super Cyclone 1999 left no space for disaster to tell upon human life. The preparations were well addressed and the meteorological department predictions were properly used. The disaster was contained to loss of property and loss of human life was only 34 almost negligible compared the size of the disaster spell.
Later you got associated with Odisha Fire Services Department to write a report on their “Response System”. Tell us about the new route of your life.
Taking time off from the University, with total commitment I conducted the report and the same was published by the OFS Department as a book. Odisha state government accelerated the process of establishing the Fire Station Offices at every block in whole of Odisha covering all the 335 blocks. The Fire Service Department of Odisha got equipped with all types of disaster rescue and management services; and with their experience they rendered a great service to the State of Andhra Pradesh when it was struck by the cyclonic storm called ‘Hudhud’ and got applauds from the State. Odisha Fire Service Department is one of the robust systems today to encounter disaster, it stays ever prepared. A department not being taken seriously by the states for services and/or for their contribution stands tall in Odisha. My recommendations in the report were to a certain extent useful for the government to strengthen OFS to its current status.
What were your personal takeaways from this experience?
I believe disasters provide a very good opportunity for everyone to contribute something to the fellow being. It is a signal to part something. It provides lot many lessons for ‘living and sharing together’. It strikes all the selfish aggrandisement and calls for community participation. It implants a renewed zeal and hope for newer and intelligent tomorrow, with life full of sacrifices. Natural Disasters are good and a challenge to humanity. One need be humane and human with fellow being, that is the way of life. I can speak on disasters for hours together how it can change life for good.
What is your perception on legal academia as a career? How would you guide the future teachers of India?
India needs good, committed, honest, hardworking teachers. Teaching is a passion. Teaching provides unlearning along with the students. Teachers need to be humble and skilful. Teacher is made with lot of sacrifices, the compensation is limited to ‘a good rejoicing class’. For a teacher, the best accomplishment the students should grow beyond the teacher and realise their dreams as a good human and responsible citizen of the country. In life everything deserved comes on its own for the person who works for others. And many more values of being a teacher, I have seen in my teachers, I respected them and loved to live like them. I still struggle in my pursuit to live like my teachers. These values chained me into teaching, and I am happy.
Teaching can be a wonderful career pursuit for it provides the satisfaction of living a life full of giving. Law teaching has to happen in a very refined and bigger way where the legal scholarship will flourish for justice education. Enough is still to happen, where men will learn to have a successful and contented life and pursuit of legal profession. We should be able to logically explain where one is at wrong side and what is due and appropriate. We should learn to respect the adversary. Advocacy has much to offer. Dispute resolution and peace are interconnected, and language of law should have that magic wand. It comes out of the human quality and character of the arbitrator.
For me a good class with full of students intimately and continuously involved in learning process is the fountain of pleasure. No wonder I am struggling to be a teacher like my teachers.
You have authored a number of research articles and books. Is there any inspiration which incites to pursue this?
Writing articles do not happen all the time. Nor writing a book is possible for writing book sake. There has to be a creative streak. One simple idea which allures one can be the matter of writing an article. The appetite should come from within, and the research follows, reading a lot of literature is necessary to understand what is it that one is so fond of and/or that keeps absorbed or disturbs the peace. It takes lot of time to reach to the material of choice, and in the pursuit the idea gets involved with other wonderful writings and scholarship; one need be dispassionate and remain focused from the beauty of other scholarly articles. Once the ideas get concretised and literature seems to be exhaust and one is updated with existing literature, one can venture to enter into substantiating the points of view and when someone is able to provide the logic and reason to establish the postulate, has accomplished a research article. This need be reviewed, and verified with fellow colleagues. Language of presentation should be simple to the core because the author stays miles away from his very important readers.
Ideally speaking, research articles should happen as often as possible. It provides a window to the world to look at the author and his view point while contributing to knowledge system.
I could write only very few articles with zeal and self involvement, while bulk were attended with a compulsion for contribution and participation at seminars and conferences; and / or contributing to the request of a fellow teacher. I always enjoyed writing in group, sharing views.
How important is it to attend seminars, conferences and workshops conducted by various legal luminaries while in law school?
Seminars, Conferences and Workshops at National Law Universities are really good ones and whereas at many of the state universities and law colleges it appeared ritual and a function of get together. The culture of a good seminar linked with scholarly exchange formally and informally during the time of seminar should emerge. Only serious minded people who have done their homework and are prepared to contribute with ideas can meaningfully participate. One should meaningfully gain from such participation and quantify in a scale of learning. Seminars should be a continuous affair with in the education system. There need be daily seminars and exchange of ideas. More informal seminars need to happen from voluntary groups of students on various issues of the nation, judgments delivered by the courts and newspaper reports. And the views can be published periodically appropriately.
At NUJS, once I did not feel attracted to a topic of seminar and chose to remain in library during the time. Professor Menon called me to his office and asked the reason for not being present in the seminar. And said “senior teachers have no choice to opt out of university seminars however disinteresting the topic may be’, there is a need to come out from the ‘disinterest’ in the realm of knowledge”. “Seminars are open forum for learning and more unlearning”, is the lesson that I learnt.
How was your teaching experience at WBNUJS?
Professor Menon exposed me to cooperative teaching. One of the first experiences to teaching and learning debut at NUJS was to co-teach with Professor Menon. We were addressing class on ‘legal method’, the subject provides the first glimpse of law to students. I made my preparations but in the class room the discussion went in a different paradigm to my preparation and I had little to participate in the partnership. I chose to vehemently oppose the postulates of law and found well attended by Professor Menon. The class went on very successfully. It is the kindness of Professor Menon, he praised me before everybody in the class. Later, he told me the techniques of cooperative teaching. I enjoyed cooperative teaching. Two–three teachers together can take up teaching together, and stage a script of substantial delivery of teaching and learning.
Case method of teaching is another exercise, which divides the class into groups for considered debate and yet another groups to sum up, while the teacher provides the conceptual finish as conclusion.
At NUJS we were encouraged all innovative models of teaching and learning process including on-field exercises at court hall, police station and other workstations. We never had any one method, depending on the topic requirement we adapted to different methods, mainly to drive out any monotony among the students. We used visualise and invent surprises for the students in our teaching exercises. We are happy we had great opportunity.
Do you think MNLU is having an edge over the other NLUs of the nation? What are the advantages which an NLU seated in Mumbai receives?
First the location advantage, that we are in TISS campus. The whole of campus, library, wi-fi system, the dining hall, the wisdom of the TISS faculty are at our hands reach. It is a unique privilege which no NLU student in India must have got in the very founding year. Thanks to TISS and the Hon’ble Chancellor Mr. Justice FM Ibrahim Kalifulla who have been instrumental in the understanding.
Secondly, Mumbai provides a unique opportunity with rich resource of very learned lawyers and retired judges who are always ready to assist the law students in their academics. Most of the advocates and other members of legal fraternity are associated with the local law colleges contributing their bit as part-time professors. MNLU Mumbai will be certainly tapping the best of the resources for its students too. There are the best of law firms in Mumbai and the students will be skilful enough to find a good exposure and can participate with them in their vacations. So also the whole field of legal practice and experimentation is open for the students in the corporate climate to look litigation from different perspective including alternative dispute resolution and arbitration experts. The students after five years from MNLU Mumbai will have mine of opportunity in Mumbai alone. For availing the interaction from the lawyers and judges, we are open on Sunday, it shall be our working day, and our weekly holiday will be Wednesday. This arrangement will provide students an opportunity to visit offices on Wednesday to collect material and right their project assignments.
Thirdly, the education at MNLU Mumbai will have to be geared up to make study a pleasant experience and at the same time competitive to take the challenges of life as a matter of fact. We are fortunate, that we have seasoned faculty from social sciences available at the immediate vicinity from TISS. We also have the support of professional counsellors from TISS, to guide and ease any blues. Apart from the teachers with in the campus, the students will have exposure to the best teachers from other institutions in India. MNLU Mumbai will have to make such arrangement until we develop our own cadre of best teachers. MNLU Mumbai will adopt various methods of teaching and imparting education as are essential and appropriate to a particular course, all option and autonomy will be given to teachers to make best of class work.
Fourthly, the first batch of the students will get ample opportunity to vent their skills and ideas and contribute to the student forums with facets of self-governance, student-bar council, moot-court bar association, student discipline committee, anti-ragging committee, welfare bodies, cultural club, athletic club, placement cell, and establish a system of student self-administration. Also associated along with the co-curricular activities they will have to design legal aid cell, arbitration house, disaster management cell, drafting committee and things like that.
MNLU, Mumbai – Jogeshwari Campus
Fifthly, MNLU Mumbai is not in competition with any institution, but it shall create for itself a distinct place in terms of its education skills, student discipline, teaching and learning process. The idea is MNLU Mumbai shall be a forum to provide space and opportunity for every member to enjoy their field of persuasion with a sense of satisfaction and reap rich dividends in legal scholarship. More than competitive achievements, the students will learn to enjoy their contribution to the society and nation, by steadily growing to reach to their set goals. Students will be the maker of the University for tomorrow. The administration shall facilitate the best practices to happen. The students will realise at the end of five years, the time at MNLU has given everything that they cherished in terms of legal scholarship, and they shall have to feel proud to remain connected to lead the institution to greater heights.
What would you like to share with students who are not from an NLU?
I feel sad when I look to the bulk of the law colleges, where students just manage to get degree foolishly without any substance and degrade the law degree. Lot many of them enrol as advocates without knowing what they are going to do. Some even manage to become judges of the lower courts and struggle hard to meet the demands of justice. The society suffers a lot out of their ignorance. A lot of measures need be taken to overhaul the traditional law colleges. Bar Council of India is struggling to change the system.
The above position being disastrous, a fine opportunity also awaits for a serious minded law student to bake his cake. If the studies are taken seriously in those law colleges with scanty of facilities, and goals are fixed to excel in that little sphere, there can still be space for continuing with that spree of perfecting on and on in life. The opportunity is that a sincere student can achieve easily the best among the deprived atmosphere. There is no short cut to success, but one should learn to enjoy harder task. Life should be full of pleasantness, which emanates from knowledge alone. In the world, there is enough for everyone to pick and remain content as long one realises one’s own ability to carry.
Rimali Batra graduated from ILS Law College, Pune in 2010. After graduation, she worked at ICICI Bank’s Corporate Banking and Litigation team in New Delhi for a year. Thereafter, she pursued a BCL degree at the University of Oxford. After completing BCL, she joined Jindal Global Law School as a Research Associate. She subsequently accepted a job offer from J Sagar Associate’s Regulatory and Policy team and after continuing there for a while she went on to join her present office at the Regulatory team of Trilegal.
In this interview she talks about:
Reading BCL at Oxford and tips on scholarships
Being a Research Associate at JGLS
Working at JSA and moving over to Trilegal
Most of readers are budding and enthusiastic lawyers, how would you like to introduce yourself to them?
I was born and raised in Delhi. I did my schooling from Montfort Senior Secondary School located in Ashok Vihar, New Delhi. Thereafter I went to ILS Law College, Pune to do my graduation in Law. After ILS Law College, I worked with ICICI Bank’s Corporate Banking and Litigation team in New Delhi. A year and three months later, I went to University of Oxford to read law. After BCL, I joined Jindal Law School, Sonipat as a research associate and worked there for three semesters. During the second half of 2014, I joined J Sagar Associate’s Regulatory and Policy team and worked on matters concerning power (Electricity Act, 2003). I was with Mr. Amit Kapur’s team in JSA for a year and have now moved to Mr. Sitesh Mukherjee’s Regulatory team in Trilegal. I have been at Trilegal for five months now. That’s been my journey thus far.
You have had many interesting career switches from starting out as a banking lawyer then being a Research Associate at JGLS to your current profile at Trilegal. What all do you consider before taking these decisions?
One is of course bound to be surprised at the changing courses of my career paths but then it was all a part of the plan, which I hope the readers will see as this interview answers unfold. All decisions that I have made till date connect, and connect wonderfully.
I am a curious individual and don’t shy from taking risks. I have always been experimental in nature and challenges attract me and hold me. Call it my weakness, call it my strength. I believe that I perform well when I multi-task (It’s like enjoying the main course with some side dishes). That is how it has been since school days. For instance, in school I did not just study hard and well, but also trained myself to be a good basketball player (played national and international tournaments), a praiseworthy debater (both at the inter-school level and state level), a leader (school head girl) and a decent quizzer (inter-school level). Similarly in College, I did not settle for just being among the top 10 rank holder for all five years in the Pune University (ILS was one among the 20 odd colleges affiliated to the Pune University), but also represented ILS at various national and international level moot competitions, elocutions and paper presentations. At Oxford too, I read the BCL alongside playing basketball for the University of Oxford. And now whenever I have time and I am not working, I am doing either of the following – pro-bono advisory on energy laws and medical law and ethics, reading books, stock trading / following the market, writing and publishing stories or on issues of law that interest me, teaching English to underprivileged kids at home on weekends, part-time teaching at law schools or travelling.
Did you have lawyers in your family or in close proximity?
A little about my family: There are no lawyers in my family (or in extended family for that matter). My father hailed from Sonipat and my mother came to India in my Nani’s womb from Pakistan. My father was a businessmen and my mother assisted him in his business. He was and is my role model. He had no basic formal education and left school in class VI to pursue his dream of setting up a business. My mother was a national level table-tennis player and a B.Com graduate from University of Delhi.
My elder sister, who is a gold medallist, is a Human Resources manager with a renowned company in New Delhi and my younger brother, who is also a gold medallist in B.Com (H) from University of Delhi is running his own business and takes care of dad’s business. I think I inherited my mother’s sports skills and reading habits and my father’s experimental, risk bearing and helping nature. I believed that a little confusion and nervousness is always good but fear is destructive, and therefore I aim at balancing my fears and my weaknesses with my confidence and strengths, as I move forward. I also leave achievements behind and look at them as a thing of the past and aspire to achieve a little more as days go by. So, in a nut-shell, law and basketball are my passion and I am a learner and observer at heart.
Why did you decide to be a lawyer? How was your law school experience at ILS, Pune?
As far as my memory goes, I sealed the decision of being a lawyer in Class Xth – even before I decided whether to take commerce or science. My decision was based on an aptitude test that was conducted in school moral science class. Thereafter I started adding biographies of famous lawyers to my reading rack alongside the already placed biographies of basketball players. I also read a lot of John Grisham. That marked the beginning. In class XII, I joined LST for preparation. I did not fill any other forms (B.Com, Eco (H) etc) but gave entrance tests for N-Schools. At one point in time, when I did not get through Symbiosis, I almost lost hope for making it to any other N-School, but then when I made it NALSAR, I regained my strength. I also made it to ILS on merit and on sports quota. Now, the decision there was simple, but I got swayed by the India Today ranking and picked ILS over NALSAR, as the ranking placed ILS at number 1 in 2005.
ILS for me was a place of opportunities. Located in the heart of the city and walking distance from Symbiosis, ASCL, Ferguson College, FTII and Gokhale Institute of Political Science and Economics, it offered a vibrant student crowd and a bundle of opportunities. My learning was not limited to the classrooms of ILS. I participated in moots that enlarged my frame of learning, pursued diplomas in subjects that were not taught as a part of the academic curriculum and interned with NGO’s/human rights organisations in Pune. During college, I successfully completed diplomas in International Arbitration, Cyber Laws, International Business Laws, Securities Laws and Medical Law and Criminology. I was one of the speakers in the team that represented University of Pune at University of Oxford in the quarter-final rounds of the Oxford IPR Moot Competition, 2009. My first publication was on ‘domestic violence’ in the college journal (in 2007), followed by a piece on ‘separation of powers’ in the Ambedkar Law School journal (2009). During college, I also participated in cultural events like poetry writing and recitation, signing and painting. And of course I continued to play Basketball at the Deccan Gymkhana, since our college did not have a functional basketball court. I made some great friends at ILS. Overall, I believe I was able to paint my canvas with so many colours because I was in a college that gave me so much time and space to explore and go looking for opportunities, if they refuse to come to you.
When people say “Law school”, they look no further than the National Law Universities. As a graduate of ILS, Pune have you faced any such bias? What would be your advice to students in ILS?
I think the trends are changing a bit. Especially because of so many law colleges mushrooming across the country. ILS has a legacy of being one of the oldest institutions imparting legal knowledge. What ILS lacks is professional training. Meeting my counterparts from N-Schools, always encouraged me to imbibe in me the skills required to think, talk and approach life like a professional. Bias does exit but not all of us have to face it. ILS has a reputation for producing some good litigators however has not earned the same reputation in the corporate world, thereby making it difficult for kids in ILS to crack competitive corporate jobs. I recall an incident during my first job where a senior of my team, while praising my work, introduced me to be from NLS. On my prompting, he corrected himself and toned up his praises even more (considering he was surprised!). I would advise students from ILS to do additional courses and good internships because only studying law at ILS and getting a degree is not going to be enough.
My advice to students of ILS would be two-fold
(a) focus on academics in order to score well. Do not consider classroom teaching the end all of academics, that’s just the starting point; and
(b) Make the most of the time at hand. Involve yourself in activities/course or additional degree’s that interest you. ILS makes space and time for you to incorporate that in your schedule. Most importantly, do both with the sole objective of learning.
Students can consider requesting administration to take notice of events, moots and competitions that interest them and be rest assured the college will do its part. Student may also invite luminaries in the legal fraternity for lectures and seminars. Basically, what a student in ILS needs is the ‘instinct to initiate’ and ‘go towards opportunities’.
Please describe the internships that you did in college.
For internships, I always chose New Delhi, because this is where home was and logistics were easy to manage. My first internship was in the District Courts of Delhi where I read and researched on matters of criminal law and property related disputes. Thereafter, I did my second internship in Delhi High Court where I worked on matters on the original as well as the appellate side on various subjects. In my third year I did internships with Senior Advocates of Supreme Court. I then did an internship with litigation teams of two law firms and my final internship was with the Law Commission of India where I wrote a thesis (which retired into a book) on Constitutional validity of Medical Termination in India. I planned my internships and explored possible avenues for a lawyer in order to better understand my calling. By the end of five years, I was sure of being a litigator (at the least) not sure of the subject area that interests me.
You worked as a Legal Manager at ICICI Bank. How does a typical day at ICICI work out? What were your main tasks and what responsibility did you undertake?
ICICI Bank was my first employer. I was placed through college. I was based out of the Delhi office (I asked for Delhi as my location during my interview). I worked in no specific vertical, but was primarily doing litigation for/against the Bank. Anything and everything was a part of my profile. On a day I would be doing ECB lending, security creations and on another I would be researching and preparing written submissions for matters pending in the consumer forum or the Supreme Court and on yet another day I would be doing retail banking advisory. Having such a profile made it interesting to work in ICICI. I worked there for a year and a half, before I decided to do a masters.
How did your appointment take place at ICICI Bank? What kinds of questions were asked at your interview for ICICI bank?
ICICI follows a three step procedure, shortlisting on the basis of CV’s, followed by a Group Discussion and finally a personal interview. The Group Discussion revolves around a hypothetical problem relating to law of contracts and consumer protection. The personal interview is primarily based on the resume and a few HR based questions.
Please tell us about your decision to do an LL.M and how you went about choosing the program and university.
I decided to pursue my masters from Oxford ever since I visited the University in 2009 for an IPR Moot Competition. On my return, I pursued it like a dream. The advantages of doing a BCL are:
(a) it offers the students to choose a suitable combination of subjects, based on their preferences as opposed to a custom-made LLM course. So, even though I read only four subjects as part of the BCL but at the same time the rigorous workload and timelines gave me the advantage of specialising in four subjects at one time,
(b) Oxford targets on strengthening reading, breaking down complex material and articulating the same in form of legal writings/answers/tutorials. They say, don’t study BCL, you read for BCL.
What do you think clicked in your favour during the selection process for Oxford? What are the scholarships you had applied for?
I can’t answer this question with certainty. It has to be a combination of my academic performance in ILS, my statement of purpose and the write-up. Also, the fact that I assured my willingness to attend the course and pay for it, in case I did not get scholarships from Oxford, could have boosted my application. However, I did say that I will not attend if I had no scholarships at all. Other than that, achievements mentioned on my CV (like basketball, moots, diplomas etc.), my statement of purpose and my write-up may have added a little value.
How do you think a law student can build up his profile to get through to top-notch universities like Oxford?
It’s important to have a strong academic score. A rank in the law school adds value to the application. Apart from that, a student should be able to demonstrate inclination for engaging in theoretical and policy aspects of law. It is also advisable for students to have publications on their side. I remember interacting with the Dean of the University and inter alia, discussing the approach adopted by the University in considering applications from Indian law students. He talked about the law college’s ranking also being a relevant factor, apart from the academic achievements of the student.
What was your area of study during your masters at Oxford? How was the academic pressure like and did you find time to engage yourself in other activities?
I read Principles of Financial Regulations, Corporate Laws, Medical Law and Ethics and Philosophical Foundations of Common Law. The courses were rigorous and the readings ranged from being easy to intense and complex. However, I made time to be a part of the Oxford University Girl Basketball team after being shortlisted at the trials conducted at the beginning of the course. I played 4 or 5 inter-university matches and also participated in the legendry ‘Varsity Tournament’ played between Oxford and Cambridge every year.
Please tell us about the scholarships you applied to and the procedure for each.
I applied for all possible scholarships I stumbled upon during my research. I started looking for scholarships before making my application. I followed this website -governmentofindiascholarship.com. I specifically applied for Rhodes, Common Wealth Scholarship, KC Mahindra Trust, Jain Trust, Ox-Cam among others. I was awarded the KC Mahindra Trust Scholarship and the Ox-Cam Scholarships. The application procedure is a little detailed as the students need to prepare independent SOP for each and demonstrate availability of the balance funds (in case where the scholarship does not cover for everything).
The interview rounds for KC Mahindra and Ox-Cam is fairly simple and questions are primarily targeted at (a) ‘Why oxford?’ and (b) ‘What after masters?’
Additionally, I would suggest students to ask their employers or seniors they have worked with for financial assistance as some firms, seniors or employers are willing to offer funds with or without a promise from the student to come back and work with the said employer or senior.
Please describe your experience at Oxford. What were the classes and professors like?
Oxford was a scintillating experience for me. Especially, reading philosophy at Oxford gave me a deeper understanding of law, legal principles and concepts. Oxford has seminars (classroom teaching) which requires students to read before walking in. For my corporate law class I joined a group that was made by students themselves to discuss seminar questions before the seminar and help prepare better for exams.
At Oxford I was exposed to a system that takes its readings very seriously. As a Masters student, we were required to not just read hundreds of pages every week, but, to also reflect on them during our seminars. I enjoyed this practice very much and it has allowed me to hone my writing skills in the process. A typical reading list will have at least 8-10 important readings (combination of articles, case laws and policy paper series from different jurisdictions, but primarily UK and US). Professors, at best, assist as students deliberate and discuss a topic. One more thing which I found particularly interesting was the presence of an economics, finance and corporate law professor at the same time during seminars for one of my courses, namely, principles of financial regulation.
The tutorial system is quite unique. There are 4 tutorials for each subject and are spread over three semesters followed by a three hours written exam at the end of the course. I found the tutorials challenging but refreshing as they helped me assess my performance and understanding of the subject alongside attending seminars. They also helped me hone my skills of articulating my thoughts and understanding of the subject.
You switched to a pure research based career after coming from Oxford. How did this change take place? How did you get to associate yourself with Jindal Global Law School?
Academics is very close to my heart and still is. For as long as I can remember, teaching and educating has always fascinated me. When at Oxford, I heard about Jindal Law School and its dean, Dr. (Mr.) C. Raj Kumar who happens to be an alumnus of Oxford. I was given an opportunity to work as a Research Associate and lecture two courses ‘Property Laws’ and ‘Corporate Laws’. Honestly, one may see it as a switch in careers, but for me, academics fits in very well for an aspiring lawyer, especially after a masters. I also felt a dire need to re-apply and re-read my subjects, from the Indian law perspective – after I finished my masters.
Though I chose to be a litigator, I haven’t lost touch with teaching and academics (and hopefully never will). I have conducted seminars and lectured at various law schools in India, ever since I left Jindal. I am a visiting faculty with Symbiosis Law School, Noida and often visit ILS Law College for conducting week long courses, as and when time permits.
You had worked with Jyoti Sagar Associates and you are now working with Trilegal. Why this switch?
After two very fruitful and enriching years at Jindal Law School, I decide to do join regulatory litigation. I was with JSA for a year and have been with Trilegal for 5 months now and having been working on laws in the energy sector, especially the power sector. With not much precedent in the sector, the practice is demanding and engaging.
How is being a research associate or a legal manager at bank different from working at a top – notch law firm? Does the work load increase, how have you managed this transformation?
When I was in ICICI, I assisted in consumer dispute litigations for/against the bank on subjects involving ‘corporate laws’, ‘banking laws and regulations’. When at Oxford I read ‘corporate law’ and ‘financial regulations’. When at Jindal, I taught ‘corporate laws and financial regulations’. When at JSA, I put together the knowledge and experience acquired from ‘corporate laws’, ‘regulations’ and ‘litigation’; and worked hard in acquiring sector specific knowledge. Electricity/Power sector is a super-niche sector and I find it thrilling and challenging. My work at JSA was very extensive and intense. At Trilegal, I continue working on matters in the power sector with the same intensity and I enjoy it immensely.
How has the journey been so far? What are your long term goals?
For me my journey that has been the best part. The people I met, places I visited, life experiences I picked on the way, all add to me being who I am today. For today and tomorrow, I am a litigator, learner and an observer and I aspire to be perfect at what I do.
Lastly, what would be your message to a law student who wants to excel in the legal profession?
Let me quote Abraham Lincoln’s message “If you are resolutely determined to make a lawyer of yourself, the thing is more than half done already.” I echo.
When in law school, plan a little about your future. Immerse yourself in travel, cultural exchange, sports, parties and meaningful conversations, as much as possible. Don’t let your degree define your career limits. Don’t forget to explore and experiment. Take risks sometime, it adds a bitter-sweet flavour to your becoming a lawyer. If you do, then accept your failures as much as your cherish your victories.
And most importantly, keep your imagination alive.
Megha Bhagat graduated from Army Institute of Law, Mohali. She pursued an LL.M in Human Rights from NLSIU, Bangalore before going on to work at NASSCOM Foundation. She has received a Certificate of Recommendation from HRLN for extraordinary participation in the National Convention on Human Rights and Mental Health, a Certificate of Recommendation from the Supreme Court Bar Association and a Certificate of Appreciation from Amnesty International. She currently works as an independent consultant in the non-profit sector.
In this interview, she talks about:
Law college experience at Army Institute of Law, Mohali.
Masters in Human Rights from NLSIU, Bangalore.
Interning and working at the NASSCOM Foundation.
Being an independent consultant in the non-profit sector.
Please introduce yourself to our readers. How did you decide to take up law?
I grew up as a typical military brat with schooling all over the country. This probably formed the foundation for making career choices that varied over the years since I got to meet different role models while moving schools. I can never answer “how” or “why” I decided to take up law but I distinctly remember saying to my history teacher back in the 9th grade that I will either be a lawyer or a journalist. I think the need to know how systems work triggered the decision to study law.
You graduated with a BA.LLB from Army Institute of Law, Mohali. How was your law school experience? Looking back, what would you do differently?
When I got into law college I was another 18 year old who had just gotten her first sense of academic freedom. The first year was about figuring out what was it about the subject that really fascinated me and this also typically meant not being a student who scored high grades. While the style of academics remained pretty much like school system, I started exploring the practical world of law and started embarking on internships and legal workshops. Since the college provided the option of specialising in human rights, corporate law or litigation in the 4th year I started building my understanding of what I really wanted to do.
For the first 3 years I interned at all forms of legal offices- be it criminal lawyers in Punjab & Haryana High Court, Khaitan & Co for the corporate experience, district courts in Lucknow or Human Rights Law Network in New Delhi. This was to ensure that I knew with absolute certainty what kind of law inspired me to work in a particular sector. By the time 4th year happened it was clear that I wanted to study human rights law and interestingly I was the only student not only in the college but the complete university that opted to pursue human rights law! I spent the last two years being on my own (no faculty, no peers), not only studying the intricacies of law but also working on workshops and seminars outside the academic circle. That built my overall exposure to the various facets of options I had set for myself and created role models from the sector.
I gave up on the idea of mooting pretty early in law college and that is one thing I would love to go back and change for myself! I think being a law student, it is a critical skill to evaluate yourself as a court room lawyer, so it’s something I missed out on.
You received extraordinary accolades while still in law school. Please tell us about these.
I received a Certificate of Recommendation by HRLN for extraordinary participation in the National Convention on Human Rights and Mental Health in October, 2004, a Certificate of Recommendation by the Supreme Court Bar association in April, 2005, and a Certificate of Appreciation by Amnesty International in August, 2007.
One thing I was clear about was that I wanted exposure beyond academic life and therefore remained very active in social circles beyond law college. I worked on making long lasting professional connections at the internships I pursued and I was able to get access to opportunities that existed outside college. Since human rights was already my preferred area of expertise, I was able to find mentors very early in college who groomed me in the sector and that led to participating in sector-specific work with organisations like HRLN and Amnesty.
I was involved in curating content for the mental health convention and leading a panel on mental health discourse. With Amnesty I was involved in working on the campaign against death penalty in India and wrote a paper on the same while at college. The Supreme Court Bar Association organises an annual conference which nominated students also attend and I was nominated by the college to take part in a discussion on changing trends in human rights discourse globally.
You interned at the NASSCOM Foundation while in law school and were offered a job there upon finishing your studies. What should one do to get noticed in a large organisation during a short, month-long internship?
It is very important that you are clear about how far off you see yourself in an organisation when you intern there. This gives you clarity in terms of your role in the organisation as an intern and leads you to make a better impression. In a large organisation it is critical that your interview has already hallmarked you as a different intern over others. For me, that has been my absolute strength- to have distinguished myself with specific skill sets over other interviewees. This impression is typically shared by your supervisor with other seniors in the organisation and that also defines the kind of work you will be doing as an intern.
Secondly, it is important you join an internship with an inherent zeal and capacity to learn and unlearn. While the “interns fetch the coffee” mechanism may apply at most places I find that most organisations are looking at an intern as a nimble footer who can move between projects easily and effortlessly. I actually joined NASSCOM Foundation and before that GMR Foundation on program management roles which had nothing to do with law at all and yet I entered with a simple mantra of “it is never too late to learn new subject matters and skills”, this trait was duly recognised at both the organisations.
You have to ensure that you have made a few solid skills of yours noticed and recognised. You can be a good researcher, a fantastic orator, a fabulous report writer, an awesome draftsman- you need to ensure that your work has made this known to the supervisor and also senior folks. They hire you back for skill sets they believe are missing in others and you have to figure that out while you are a part of the team. Lastly, socialise with the organisation! I have always believed that anybody is a person first and bosses/colleagues/peers later, so they are looking to know your working style as a person. Create/use opportunities to meet the seniors in the organisation, have personal conversations with them giving them a peek of where you come from and why you are working with them, pick up a few projects that are outside your work role and talk about those projects to the folks in the organisation. While at NF I was handling various projects from very varied perspectives and I had made my relationship building skills known to the organisation for them to hire me back to lead programs.
You pursued an LL.M in Human Rights from NLSIU, Bangalore immediately after graduating. What were your reasons for doing so?
I personally think it is an individual choice to pursue higher studies and their motivation to do so. My motivation was simple- I had deep dived deep into human rights studies during my under grad period without any faculty or guide support and I was deeply interested in rigorously studying the nuances of the subject under able guidance. I went on to pursue an LL.M immediately because I did not want a break in my studies and went on to specialise again in human rights at NLSIU. For me it was the best decision I ever made simply because I spent the next two years dissecting closely the working nuances of various human rights mechanisms and gathering more experience through trainings etc.
Is it better to work for a couple of years and then go for an LL.M or do one immediately after graduating?
Every law student should prioritise their 2 year plan right after law school early on. If you are interested in getting on with the job, then by all means pursue work immediately after law school. If you are interested in an LL.M adding specific specialities to your resume, then you should have either figured out by your final year of under-grad what subject excites you (through internships) or you can work for a few years and figure out what speciality makes the most sense to you. And of course if you are a learner like me then join an LL.M to explore what else you can extract from theoretical knowledge about the legal systems.
You were a Research Assistant for a period of ten months on the topic of “Common Resources of Mankind”. Can you tell us the experience of taking part in this conference?
This was for a Conference on “Commons” held in January, 2011 under the chairmanship of Nobel Laureate Elinor Ostrom. This was a huge opportunity that came along while I was pursuing my masters at NLSIU. We were chosen to participate in the research for the conference and the papers that would be presented thereof. I was a part of a small working group that was collecting global evidence of the “Common knowledge” and sharing growth stories. We worked on putting together data that indicated that not only were resources to be shared amongst nations but also that knowledge shared across nations was more conducive and relevant to the globalised world order.It was personally a very exciting and fulfilling experience since it added to my overall learning growth under such an esteemed academician.
After graduating, you joined the NASSCOM Foundation, New Delhi as a Business Responsibility Officer. What was your work profile like? What were your main tasks?
My work profile included program management for CSR, research and publication on relevant CSR subjects and support for the Disability Program of the organisation.
In the first year I was tasked to build regional industry forums on Corporate Social Responsibility. I was leading 3 regions: Bangalore, Hyderabad and Chennai, and building working groups from within the IT industry to lead social impact projects within the cities. It was an interesting space to work in since it meant that I had to become well versed with all the IT/BPO companies in those regions and curate projects based on the skills that each company possessed and also work with CXO levels to change mindsets around CSR and social impact footprint of the industry.
In the 2nd year two changes took place- I was handed the responsibility to set up operations for the organisation in Bangalore and also handed the Program Management responsibility for an internationally funded project by the Rockefeller Foundation. I moved to Bangalore to successfully start the Foundation’s south regional office and also worked on new skills of writing funding proposals, managing an international donor and pretty much moved towards program management work. I did stay in touch with the law with the Planning Commission’s work on the 5 year plan where Iwas representing the industry on the change in the disability schemes and law. Similarly, I stayed connected with policy making work while working with the Karnataka government on amending the policy for Rural BPO’s within the state and creating more inclusive policies for small entrepreneurs.
After two years at NASSCOM, you joined the Fellowship Program at The Rockefeller Foundation. How did you secure your appointment as a Social Innovation Fellow? How was your experience there?
The Social Innovation Fellowship at the Rockefeller Foundation was a nomination led process. All 18 fellows were selected and nominated by the Rockefeller Foundation based on our areas of specialisation and backgrounds. I was at that point of time also leading a project for the Foundation in India and working on creating a report for the global BPO industry.
Like most fellowships this was a life changing experience. I was one of the youngest fellows in the cohort and this was especially exciting since I got to learn from very inspiring senior folks from the social impact sector. We were travelling every 3 months to a new country to look at social innovation on the ground and to learn theoretical tools from our faculty from University of Waterloo, Canada and Stockholm Institute of Resilience. The travelling diaries made the beautiful countries seem so much more closer and catered to the travel bug in me.
It was riveting being amongst social change makers and witnessing NGO’s on the ground that were implementing social impact on a large scale and under various dynamics. At a personal level it made me introspect about my vision for myself and what else I wanted to do to change the world. I not only went on to make great friends but I’m also still inspired by the passion for social change that these amazing social innovators carry. I moved on from NASSCOM Foundation at the end of my fellowship program and started my own journey of creating social impact via various projects and organisations instead of limiting myself to one organisation.
Please tell us about your current occupation. What do your main tasks and assignments include?
Presently, I work as an independent consultant in the non-profit sector consulting with the International Institute of Education and Advisor at Education for Development, a non-profit organization in the education sector. I started consulting for non profits and start ups earlier this year. I currently lead operations for IIE’s new project called We Tech (Women Enhancing Technology) and led the foray of the program in India. I primarily work with the IT companies on mentoring high school girls to enter the coding space. The program is just going into its second year and I am working closely with the industry to scale the program.
In my role with E4D I am working with a very inspiring youngster who graduated from college and decided to change the way learning systems run in the country instead of taking up a plush job. E4D set up a “maker space” on the outskirts of Bangalore and provides an alternative learning system to anybody who wants to learn from making. I work with the start up on business development, outreach to partners and organisation visioning.
Your interest areas have been education, policy research and business strategy. How did you pursue these interest areas while still in law school?
I have always been interested in pursuing different subjects and gaining new skills through that exploration. While at law school I was involved with various research organisations like HRLN, Amnesty, etc. and worked on research papers for various human rights subjects including education. I had a lot of time on my hand to write articles based on changing policies and utilised my professional circle to gain access to opportunities to present the research or work on new and developing research. While I interned with foundations of corporate houses I picked up the nuances of business strategy by working closely with the corporate, business development teams of the parent organisation. I was always interested in how one could integrate social responsibility within the DNA. The wide range of exposure got for myself gave me ample playing field to pursue my interests.
You have been commended by your previous and current employers for being a people’s person and building strong working relationships. How important are social skills for a lawyer and how does one cultivate them?
Personally I am a typical military girl, which means I am used to forming relationships where ever I go. Add to it the fact that all through my seven years of legal education I dabbled with varied institutions and organisations thus leading to an overall understanding of different industries and professionals.
As a lawyer, I think social skills are extremely relevant if you want to grow out of your shell at a regular desk job! If you are looking to grow further up in the legal field or diversify later into varied sectors you need to socialise beyond the circle and form learning relationships with various professionals. It is important to go out of your comfort zone and interact with professionals in different fields, to have a childlike curiosity to learn something new and if there is one thing every human likes it is the opportunity to share knowledge. In my experience forming people relationships is an important component to grow as a professional and seeking out collaborators is useful in the long run. Whoever you meet through work should connect with you at a personal level too and that goes a long way in staying on as strong professional networks.
It is a common belief that working in the areas of human rights and policy research doesn’t pay well or at least as much as a law firm does. How true is that notion and how much of a hindrance is it for people joining this area of work?
Unfortunately the social impact sector does not have pay grades like law firms. This grim reality has led to keeping fresher level talent away from this sector. The growth in the sector takes place after the initial 4-5 years and “social work” “policy research work” haven’t picked up as mainstream skilled professions leading to much less people joining the sector. The other side of the coin is that the growth is phenomenal if you stay put for initial 3 years and learn the sector well enough. The sector requires nuanced expertise and once you have created a network for yourself and become a subject matter expert it doesn’t take much to grow from post to post.
What are your plans for the future? What advice would you give to the students reading this interview?
I intend to keep working in new subject areas and utilise my skills to work on solving varied social problems. I would hate to stay put in a specific area and therefore I see myself drifting from education to technology to urban development challenges to art and literature as forms of ending violence. The variety in the subject matter keeps me excited and thus will move from one project to another keeping my insane urge to travel also satisfied.
I would say to the students that: Don’t restrict yourself to one particular field of study just because you entered a particular sector. Figure out for yourself what excites you the most and then pursue that ambition with or without law. There are amazing opportunities that exist outside the framework and as a lawyer you are already well equipped to be a rockstar in most of the nuanced sectors! Pursue a particular field because that is what inspires you every day otherwise you will just end up being another lawyer in the country!
Ruhi Paul studied law at Delhi University and graduated in 1999. She practised for four years before choosing to enter the world of academia. She also holds a Master Degree offered by Guru Nanak Dev University and Ph.D. (Mediation law) from NALSAR University of Law, Hyderabad. She has worked as an Assistant Professor at Department of Law, Guru Nanak Dev University, NALSAR and NLU, Delhi. Presently, she teaches Civil Procedure, Law of Limitation and ADR at National Law University, Delhi as an Associate Professor. She was also involved in a training programme on Civil Procedure & Arbitration Laws for Controller Generals of Indian Defence Accounts Services.
In this interview she talks about:
Teaching at National Law University, Delhi
Tips on excelling in academics
Accessibility and uniformity in NLUs
How did you decide to opt for the field of law?
As any other young enthusiastic girl, I wanted to join the field of law to help the masses to get justice. I was very fascinated by the idea that simply studying law is empowering in itself as we get to know of our rights and duties.
Do you feel that the legal profession has significantly changed from the time when you decided to study law?
Yes, the legal profession has changed for better. The base of any profession is research and research has become so easy with all the online resources available now. However, sometimes I miss the long periods we used to spend in the libraries.
You studied law at Delhi University. Which areas of the law fascinated you the most as a law student?
As a student, I was fascinated by Jurisprudence, Constitutional Law, International Law and Criminal Law. The best strategies according to me was listening very carefully to the lectures in the class, making very good books as base books for the subject and reading the related case laws very minutely.
Your Ph.D. thesis was on mediation law. Why did you choose mediation law in particular? What factors should a legal academic consider while choosing an area of specialization apart from personal interest?
I chose mediation as I had developed an interest in Alternative Methods of Dispute Resolution (ADR) well before I decided the topic for my Ph.D. thesis. I was teaching ADR at NALSAR University of Law, Hyderabad and I was fascinated by the idea that some disputes can be resolved in ways other than through courts using amicable methods which have the potential of improving human relations apart from resolving disputes. I also realised that Mediation is one such method which is not being researched and used in India as much it is used and researched upon in foreign Jurisdictions. So I decided to do research in Mediation and how it is being administered in India through courts. My Ph.D. is the first Ph.D. on mediation in India.
A researcher should consider how his/her research can supplement the knowledge about the topic and how relevant the topic is in the contemporary times.
You currently work as an Associate Professor of Law at National Law University, Delhi. What prompted you to choose teaching as a career?
I had a short stint of four years at the Bar before I switched over to academics and pursued higher studies. While I was practising, I felt that I could be more productive if I joined teaching. As in teaching I can help a larger section of society through equipping young students with not only legal acumen but also lots of other life skills like positive thinking, taking responsibilities, team work, sensitivity towards others, leadership qualities, time management, stress management, etc. I feel that these qualities can help a law student to not only become a successful professional but a responsible citizen of India. This can automatically improve not only the Bench and Bar but the entire society.
Tell us about your teaching methodology. Do you encourage students to take notes or do you engage your students in active class participation?
I practise an interactive teaching methodology. I do not encourage students to take notes. I want a class which is alive and participative. I never mind my students asking questions. In fact, I feel motivated to teach a class which is fully prepared for the topic beforehand or the students who generally have an inquisitive bent of mind.
Teaching is something which gives me lot of satisfaction at the end of the day as it is a learning process for me as well. I have to keep myself updated to face the students.
What subjects are you currently teaching? What are your current research interests? Have you involved your students in your research?
Currently I am teaching Civil Procedure, Law of Limitation and ADR. My practice at the Bar has really helped me in my teaching of procedural subjects. My current research interest is to delve deeper into the field of mediation. I am planning to write something like Jurisprudence of Procedural Laws to make the learning of procedural subjects interesting for students. Presently, students find it very hard to concentrate in procedural subjects as they try to learn it like any theory subject. I try different interesting ways to teach procedural laws and try to give practical based research projects so that students gets a deeper understanding of procedural laws. Yes, I have involved students in my research and it was a great combined learning experience for all of us.
Do you think students should treat their professors like friends, or is it necessary to maintain a disciplined environment to create a good classroom environment?
I think some bit of discipline is always necessary for anything that we do in life. I feel that in the classroom there should be a disciplined environment for a serious learning experience for both the teacher and the taught. Outside the classroom, the Professors should be friendly so that the students can approach them for discussing their study related and other problems. I think that we teachers have a larger role to play in the lives of our students and so we have to playing different roles like that of a strict teacher, parent, friend, guide, mentor, etc.
Could you give our young readers certain tips on excelling in academics? As a teacher what tips do you give to your students for proper understanding of a subject?
As a student, I used to make it a point to listen very carefully to whatever was taught in the classes. I think students should read the law (bare Acts, etc) very minutely to understand what the legislator is trying to say and why a particular law is being made. Reading cases related to the subject is also very helpful in understanding how the law is applied to real life situations. Most importantly, students should be very sensitive to what is happening in their surroundings as the understanding and application of law becomes very simple if one has lots of real life experiences.
I strongly suggest students not to go for cramming or following any other short cuts just to pass in exams. Students should understand that they have a very important role to play in building up of the future generation and so they should choose wisely what they want to do in life and do it vey sincerely.
You were involved in the training programme on Civil Procedure & Arbitration Laws for Controller Generals of Indian Defence Accounts Services. What were the most intellectually stimulating aspects of this experience?
The most stimulating aspects of this experience is the fact that I have to offer sessions to people who most of the times are very senior officials and experts in their field. To offer orientations in Legal subjects, one requires a totally different type of methodology than teaching young law students. I really enjoy the practical application based questions from the trainees. I also like the fact that I need to design the course according to the need of the trainees who might not be having any legal background but who require an understanding of these areas of law in their work field.
When would you say a legal academician is ready to start writing books? Any time management tip for budding legal academicians?
Research is very essential for academics and it is a continuous process. I think there is no hard and fast rule as to what the right time is for an academician to start writing a book. Whenever an academician thinks s/he has acquired sufficient understanding of a topic/phenomenon/ process, both practically and theoretically, and his/her research will add something to the already existing literature on the topic, s/he can start writing a book. An academician can also refine his/her research while writing the book and so it is perfectly fine if s/he is digressing from the original research plan.
We always can find time to do what we really want to do in life so I think there is no problem of finding out time for research or for any other work from our regular schedule. I sincerely believe in the saying, “When there is a will, there is a way”.
For budding legal academicians, I want to say firstly, that they should enjoy life because life is a gift from God that we get only once. Secondly, when they work/ study/research than also they should do that with the same zeal and enjoyment. Your work will give you respect, authority, fame, livelihood and satisfaction.
A common perception in the student community is that the curriculum in most NLUs is outdated and does not equip the students with the skills that they need to solve real life problems. What are your thoughts about this perception?
I, humbly, don’t subscribe to this view. All the law schools follow a very flexible approach to curriculum design. The faculty is given a lot of space to design courses and are encouraged to keep updating the syllabi with the changes in the law. Apart from the basic courses, law schools have clinic courses which help a student to understand ADR mechanisms, drafting of pleadings and conveyancing, application of law in courts/tribunals, etc. Law schools also have extensive internship programs to enable students to have an experience of working with various organisations. In NLU, Delhi, we have library internships for first year students, NGO intersnships for second year students, Trial advocacy for third year students, appellate courts internship for fourth year and fifth year students. Law schools also have research centres which provide a forum for the students to get involved in various research projects, most of which are empirical in nature. In NLU, Delhi, presently, students are involved in the Clinic on death row prisoners, legal aid work, construction workers, gender issues, etc.
Another concern that is often raised is that the NLUs are beyond the reach of hardworking students who lack the economic resources to study in these prestigious institutions. What steps should be taken foster more equality in the NLUs?
At NLU, Delhi, we offer scholarships to students who lack economic resources. Sometimes, full fee waiver is also granted, if the circumstances require it. Various legal and other institutions can also have schemes of sponsoring the student’s studies. Initiatives like IDIA are good and should be extended to all institutions.
The students who lack economic resources can also be allowed to do part time work in the libraries, etc to earn their pocket money while they stay in the law school.
NLUs in India have often been described as islands of excellence amidst a sea of mediocrity. What steps should be taken to usher in greater uniformity in the quality of legal education in the country?
I think the law schools and the Law universities and colleges should start working together. By working together, uniformity can be brought in legal education. There can be arrangements for exchange of faculty, certificate courses can be offered to students in law schools on subjects of their choice, law schools can have trainings for teachers in course designing and teaching methodology, etc. NLU, Delhi has Academy for Law Teachers which conducts training and workshops on regular basis. Joint research programs can be initiated.
Any important things which law school didn’t teach you but ‘teaching’ did?
Teaching has taught me lot of patience, the ability to see things from a wider perspective and self-control. Teaching has taught me to be a student of law for the rest of my life.
Lastly, what would be your message to people who want to take up a career in teaching?
Teaching has always been a very respectable profession. Teaching as a career is highly satisfying. Now a days, even the financial aspect is not a concern if you want to join teaching. It is a field which will help you to learn throughout your life by keeping you involved with bright, young and enthusiastic people. Teaching gives you the power to shape the future generation and with it comes the high responsibility to do this with great care and concern for the values of the society, the nation and the world as a whole.
Anirudh Hariani graduated from GLC, Mumbai in 2011, with a BLS.LL.B degree. He later went on to pursue his LL.M from Cornell Law School. During his law schools he had the opportunity to intern with many legal luminaries, and in the midst of all these he had managed to score highly on research work and publications.
We have asked him to share:
How research and publications helped him gain admission to Cornell Law School.
His experience interning with major Independent counsels.
Experience in environment law litigations and working on pro bono.
Law school experience at GLC, Mumbai.
Please tell our readers, what is it that motivated you to take up law right after school?
I’ve always been interested in two facets of law: argument and problem-solving. This stems from my school days when I participated in Model United Nations conferences. I also enjoy intellectually stimulating challenges, which one is faced with on a daily basis in our profession. My family background in law was also a strong influence on me.
How was your law school experience at GLC, Mumbai?
The big advantage of GLC is the fact that you can work while studying. Classes usually get over before noon, so most students take up full time or short-term internships during the year, which I found particularly useful. But this advantage may be diluted due to the recent Bar Council circular barring law students from doing internships during the academic year. The impact, if any, the notice will have on articled clerks intending to appear for the solicitors’ exam is also unclear.
There’s no doubt that GLC has several deficiencies. Attendance at lectures is very low and the lectures themselves are conducted in a haphazard fashion. There are hardly any full time professors. But during my time there were a handful of highly regarded lecturers, including part-timers, whose lectures were always full. We had a professor who is now a Bombay High Court Judge, and other members of the legal fraternity used to lecture frequently. Their practical insights were invaluable.
The proximity of GLC to the Bombay High Court, which is literally a stone’s throw away, does provide a conducive environment for students to take up litigation. But at the same time, Mumbai is the commercial hub of the country so you will find graduates taking up all kinds of law careers based on their interests.
In GLC, guest lectures are organized on a fairly regular basis and extremely prominent luminaries are invited for the same. What role does that have to play when it comes to a student making his career choice?
GLC has had a strong tradition of co curriculars, which are all student-run. During my time in college we organized an annual lecture series and had some fantastic speakers come to speak to us, including Mr. Soli Sorabjee, Mr. T. N. Andhyarujina, Mr. Anil Divan, Mr. Harish Salve and non-lawyers such as Dr. Shashi Tharoor etc. GLC, being the oldest law school in Asia, has produced many of the top lawyers in the country, over the years, so many of the speakers who would come to speak were alumni. The debating society would organize an annual debate on the steps of the Asiatic Library, which was a panel discussion with academics and policy makers, moderated by Mr. Aspi Chinoy, a senior advocate. During the D.M. Harish moot, GLC’s flagship moot, a Constitution (5-judge) bench of the Bombay High Court would preside the final rounds.
These experiences of interacting with luminaries, and hearing them speak about their areas of expertise, or hearing their anecdotes while practicing, certainly develops passion in students’ minds. It’s not only theory that you learn, but also context and history, which motivates students greatly.
You have done substantial amount of work and research in environmental law. What do you say about it as a field of study? You have also taken up pro bono litigations. What motivated you to take up these not so lucrative tasks?
In India, despite having been practiced for many years environmental law has not developed into a viable means of full time employment for lawyers. The primary reason for this is that courts do not award exemplary damages, unlike in some countries, and in any case the Bar Council prohibits sharing of the proceeds of a case with the lawyer, so there is little or no incentive for lawyers to take up environmental law full time. Lawyers can’t, as a result, afford to work pro bono all the time.
I have been involved in a few environmental matters during my time at Hariani & Co., including a major mining case, which was exciting and at the same time humbling experience, though not pro bono. On a smaller scale, I have worked pro bono with environment and animal rights activists, on matters which involve the animal welfare, in the Bombay High Court. The experience of doing such work is extremely rewarding as you can see the direct results of your work.
I also helped update a book on environmental law, written by a leading senior advocate based in the Supreme Court. While researching for the same, it was remarkable to see the same handful of names being repeated in the cause title of Public Interest Litigations. It appears that there are a small but growing number of litigants taking up environmental causes such as deforestation, irregular development, etc. While environmental law is in its nascent stage in terms of litigation, there is no dearth of laws protecting the environment in India. The main problem is implementation.
I eventually took up an environmental law course during my LL.M at Cornell. Despite environmental laws in the US being so radically different from Indian law, it was interesting to study the same from a purely academic perspective.
Most of your litigation internships include ones under Advocate and Attorney General and includes late Mr. Vahanvati. Is there any special reason why you chose to work with independent counsels? Please tell us a bit about your internships.
I chose to work with independent counsel to get a more holistic view of the law. Litigation is probably the purest form of law. With litigation one can come across all kinds of commercial and civil matters without being restricted to a particular area or niche (not that niche practice is uncommon). Working with counsel I vicariously experienced the thrill of appearing in court, which definitely increased my interest level in law per se.
I was lucky to have worked with some very senior lawyers during my days at GLC. At different times, I interned with both the former, and present (prior to his appointment) Advocate General of Maharastra. Their preparation and thoroughness for matters taught me that there is no room for complacency in the profession, at the very top.
I also worked with the late Mr. G. E. Vahanvati, former Attorney General for India, who was a very interesting person. He was a hands-on senior with interns. I was permitted to sit in his chamber and he would chat to me about his practice and his experiences at the bar – he too started his career in Mumbai. His general advice was that a student or young lawyer should make sure they learn something new each day. His advice, along with the high profile nature of his briefs, was extremely exhilarating for me, a fourth year intern. His untimely death was truly a loss for the profession.
Through GLC students were sent to New Delhi, for judicial clerkships with Judges of the Supreme Court. Every lawyer / student must have dreamt at some point of time in their lives of working in the Supreme Court. For me it was no different. Having worked with the Attorney General, it was interesting to see the perspective from the other side of the bar. After court, I would go to the Judge’s house (a beautiful Lutyen’s bungalow) and do research work. It was exciting and somewhat intimidating knowing that your work may eventually appear as part of a judgment of the highest court of the land.
I also interned with a Judge of the Bombay High Court in my final year, for a six month period. This was truly the icing on the cake, as I had grown accustomed to working in the Bombay High Court and was relatively comfortable in the environment.
You have done an internship at Kanga & Co, which is one of the oldest law firms in India. How was your experience there?
Kanga & Co. was my first internship as a law student at the end of my first year. Initially I was pretty clueless. But with the help of some good seniors and co-interns I learned quite a lot, even though we had not begun our proper law subjects at GLC.
I remember that at one time, a partner required a co-intern and I to urgently draft a petition as he was travelling. Being completely fresh, we did our best with the information at hand. We didn’t know at the time that our first draft would eventually be converted into a full SLP which would be admitted in the Supreme Court!
You have also interned in corporate law departments. How different was it?
I interned with J Sagar Associates, Mumbai for one year, as a permanent intern/ paralegal. As I mentioned, apart from during exams, GLC permitted students to work through the year and many students took up long-term internships. As part of a mixed corporate and real estate team, I worked on several transactions, including performing due diligences etc. It was a proper corporate law experience. The environment was friendly and motivated, and I enjoyed working with the people there. The major take-away from my year at JSA was the large law firm culture, and the professionalism and efficiency of associates and partners which I tried to emulate. It was a good experience overall.
Later on, I had a short stint with a medium-sized law firm in London, and my experience at JSA certainly helped prepare me for working with them. The work culture in the UK was more casual than Indian law firms. Partners would interact with interns and ‘trainee solicitors’ more casually, and would occasionally join them at the end of the week, for a drink at the pub.
Prior to this, as a second year law student, I had also interned in the legal/ secretarial department of a large pharma company. Most of the people in the department were qualified company secretaries. It was my first brush with corporate law, prior to my JSA experience, although from the angle of the client and not the lawyer. It was a mixture of corporate compliances and reading up on company law from the CS angle, which I found quite interesting.
You have been an avid writer and you have had many publications. How important do you now find your research skills?
As a law student, I thoroughly enjoyed legal writing. Putting your thoughts down on paper not only cements your understanding of the topic, but allows you to go in-depth and to formulate your own analysis. I especially enjoyed researching on developing areas of law, such as copyright law. I always looked up to the GLC law review as a fresher, as I had heard seniors talking about it with reverence. That’s where I submitted my first legal paper, and luckily I was selected to be published.
In my opinion, both legal writing and advocacy are equally important. But while mooting is given its due, legal writing is often overlooked. The emphasis should be equally on both.
Even as a qualified lawyer, one is constantly preparing opinions or notes on one topic or the other. So legal research and writing skills are very important and are put to practical use. Also, academic writing establishes an in-depth understanding of that particular area of the law, which may not be the case when studying for exams or doing compulsory projects. Also, the satisfaction of seeing your name in print as a student is tremendous.
After your graduation, you pursued LL.M from Myron Taylor Hall, Cornell University Law School. How helpful did your publications prove to be in gaining an admission there?
I think my publications definitely helped me gain admission to Cornell Law School. Other things that the admissions officers look at are your statement of purpose, grades, work experience, etc.
Having pre-existing research skills definitely helps when doing an LLM. In the first week of the LLM, we were given a tour on how to use Westlaw and LexisNexis. Having used Westlaw for an international moot and for articles, my integration was easier. Legal drafting on the other hand was completely different in the US. They have a very informal approach to drafting. While Indian contracts will run into several pages, a contract there would be more concise, informal and to the point. In fact, there was even a whole introductory course offered to LLM students on American legal writing.
Along with research work, you were pretty active in other co curricular activities like being in OCs, debating, MUN etc. How did that part of law school affect your overall personality?
Co curricular activities such as mooting, debating, MUN, being part of OCs, etc. are important to any law student’s overall experience, and to get to know people in college. I was very active in such activities in my first few years at GLC. My co curricular activities reduced as I got busier with internships.
GLC has traditionally been a very good mooting school, but in recent years the emphasis is on national law schools. During my time we had some seniors who were fantastic mooters. Watching them moot and trying to emulate their successes was always what we aspired to do. With mooting I also had the chance to meet law students around the country, some of whom I kept in touch with. So, involving myself in mooting and other co curricular activities definitely impacted me positively.
Finally, is there any tip you would like to give to our budding lawyers?
Experiment as much as you can during your five years at law school. Try to develop your ancillary skills and soft skills while in law school, because you will need them during practice.
Ashish Arun graduated from NUJS, Kolkata in 2010. As a student he started working on his entrepreneurial skills while starting up with Offshore Research Partners. He didn’t have to sit for placements as ORP had already taken off. Currently he is a Partner, Principal and Director at Expert Witness Profiling.
In this interview we ask him about:
Starting up and managing multiple ventures
Journey of being an entrepreneur
Importance of a co-founder
How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers? Please share your academic and professional background.
I graduated from NUJS in 2010 and currently run Offshore Research Partners, a legal research and outsourcing firm based in Calcutta. I am also a partner in Expert Witness Profiler, LLC, which is a legal research product oriented company, based in the United States. Originally from Patna, I am based out of Kolkata at the moment.
Tell us a bit about your childhood, your hometown and your pre-graduate life as well.
The first few years of my life were spent in a small town of Bihar. When I was 5, my father moved to Patna, primarily to get me a better education. Many who know me from NUJS wouldn’t believe this, but I was actually pretty good at studies as a kid.
The career of a lawyer in India is still just a backup option for most students. What motivated you to choose law as a career? Did your family and friends not suggest you to go for Engineering or Medical Studies?
As a kid, I never wanted to be a lawyer. My father is a practicing lawyer at the Patna High Court and I had seen the struggles that a lawyer has to go through during the first few years and law as a career became a strict no. After getting a decent score in boards, the natural choice was either medical or engineering and I picked medical because I didn’t want to study math.
As fate would have it, I couldn’t clear the medical entrance exams and ended up wasting a few years after my 12th. I still wasn’t thinking of law till my cousin (a successful practicing lawyer at the Supreme Court) convinced me that I should consider studying law. If not for him and the easy competition back in 2005, I wouldn’t have studied law.
Kindly acquaint us with your college life and your aspirations in college. What activities were you involved in apart from the regular academic curriculum?
College life was the best thing that ever happened to me. I made some of my best friends, right in the first few weeks of college and the next five years were beyond imagination! I was involved in student activities right from the first year and tried my hand at almost everything; even singing – something my friends still make fun of. I used to actively participate in organizing Outlawed, the NUJS cultural fest and would also volunteer for almost every other event that took place. Student representation was something that I really enjoyed and eventually served as the President of the SJA (the NUJS student body) in my fourth year. That was a great experience as it taught me many organizational and leadership skills which still help me in running my businesses.
What kind of internships did you do while you were a student? Are there remarkable experiences during your internships that shaped your career choices later?
Like most law students, I was clueless about what I wanted to do after law school. So I tried all kinds of internships. Some of the memorable ones were from the first year when we actually spent days sitting on Jantar Mantar with the team of Justice for Bhopal, helping them with research and whatever little legal help we could offer as first year law students. Another great stint was at the offices of Siddharth Luthra, who personally taught us the basics of legal research. That internship made me understand how the right approach to research can save a lot of time and help you develop a clear understanding of the existing legal position on any issue; something that helps me today as well in serving our clients.
How did you fare in your academics at NUJS? How was the academic pressure? Do you believe that excellent CGPA is the key to all success?
If you make CGPA the benchmark, I didn’t do very well at NUJS. A good CGPA shows you are hardworking and dedicated to what is needed even if you don’t really like it. A not-so-good CGPA, on the other hand, doesn’t establish that you are good for nothing. I don’t think most of us felt any academic pressure. I may be wrong but the semesters used to be pretty easy going and everyone studied just a few days before the exams. Obviously, there were exceptions but not many.
You started a business while you were at NUJS related to the LPO industry. Tell us the background story a bit.
Quite a few of us used to do research for Daubert Tracker, an American legal database, to earn some extra pocket money. I had managed a few third party research projects for them in my third year and realized that there was potential in academic and commercial legal research outsourcing. In March 2009, I was helping them conceptualize a new research product and that is when I realized that I wanted to work in the area of legal research and publication. It was a good opportunity as they were willing to outsource all their research operations to me if I could set up a team of lawyers in India. One thing led to another and by the time we started the Calcutta office in December 2009; we already had 3 clients sending us work on a regular basis.
A big stumbling block for student entrepreneurs is arranging capital for the business. How did you handle this? How did you find your initial team for the business?
Capital requirements are different for product and services related companies. Since mine was the latter, we needed very little capital to get started – just enough to rent a space with 2-3 computers, a working internet connection and some basic furniture.
The initial team came from friends and their references. That is something I would change if I had to do it again, as friends seldom make great co-workers.
Did you look for a co-founder? Is this important to start a business?
Since I started ORP after working as a researcher for Daubert Tracker for a few years, Myles Levin (Daubert Tracker’s owner) was an automatic choice for a co-founder. He funded the start-up expenses and I had been working with him for several years to feel comfortable about it.
Having said that, I am not a huge believer in the “must-find-a-co-founder” theory. Many people start businesses with friends without truly understanding what the other person is really bringing to the table. No matter who your co-founder is, it is really important to decide the expectations and responsibilities of each person before you decide to sail together.
What did you do after your graduation? Were you looking for placements at all?
One big reason to go ahead with ORP with six months of law school left was placement options. I wanted to give six months to ORP which would have given me a fair idea if it was going to work or not. If not, sitting for placements was always an option. Thankfully, it worked fine and I didn’t have to go look for a job.
Can you tell us something about the Expert Witness Profiler and Offshore Research Partners as your businesses and how did you conceive the idea for these business ventures?
Expert Witness Profiler (EWP) was a company that was our (ORP’s) client. When one of the founders of EWP decided to leave to focus on his original business, I was presented with an opportunity to co-own the company. We were already handling their operations, from research to delivery and even post-delivery customer support – so it seemed like a good option to pick a stake and co-own the company and I went for it. It was one of the best decisions I made as the business has been growing and it is always more rewarding to be a co-owner than a vendor.
You won the Star Youth Achiever Award for the Year 2010-11. Tell us something about this. How does it feel to reach these heights at such an early stage in career? And how has your journey as an entrepreneur been so far?
Yes, the recognition and the awards came knocking very soon – but they are a mere reaffirmation of the fact that you are moving in the right direction and doing the right things. If anything, it motivated me to work harder and make sure that the growth momentum is maintained and the companies keep outperforming themselves on a regular basis.
My journey as an entrepreneur has been like most others, I believe – I have seen good times as well as bad. Business slowdowns and a sudden upsurge in the order books have both happened and we have learned as a team, every day, how to tackle problems better and keep moving forward.
How difficult would you say the first few years were of your own business? Tell us about the highs and lows.
ORP has been profitable since the very first month – so, thankfully, we never had any financial issues. Most of the problems that we have had are what I would call a “good-quality-problem”. For example, we found ourselves overwhelmed with work and several of us would spend more than 24 hours in the office on certain days. This may sound normal to someone working in a law firm but it doesn’t really happen in the outsourcing. We have seen slowdowns and plateaued growth for a few months here and there – something that very few businesses can avoid, but other than that, it has been a pretty smooth ride till now.
Did you at any point of time doubt your career choice of being an entrepreneur? If yes, how did you cope up with that?
Never. I know it is easier to say this now with 20-20 hindsight, but I am thankful that I never really doubted it as a career choice.
How do you think knowing law benefits an entrepreneur? What are the prime hurdles that a non-lawyer entrepreneur is likely to come across?
Everyone needs to know the law – it has its own benefits and entrepreneurs are no different. However, there is a huge difference in knowing the law and being a lawyer. Because of being a lawyer, I could draft my own Agreements and I understood the legal as well as the commercial aspects of it. Or, I could incorporate a company without using another lawyer to draft my AoAs and MoAs. But then, an entrepreneur can always seek legal advice for these issues. I do not believe that a non-lawyer entrepreneur would face any specific difficulties or hurdles just because he is not a lawyer.
You are a businessman more than a lawyer now. Do you feel that doing a business related course like MBA would have been better than studying law?
Most of the projects and businesses that I have undertaken till now and plan to take up in the future are related to law. And I would not have been able to do any of this if I didn’t study law. An MBA may have helped but not as much as studying law did.
Would you like to pursue higher study some day? Why or why not?
Absolutely – but just to be able to go back to campus as a student! There is nothing better than that.
Do you take interns? If yes, what qualifies one for an internship at Offshore Research Partners and how should one apply for the same?
We do take interns and the only real qualification is that you need to be a law student. We have an internship application form on our Careers page (www.orp-india.com/careers) and one can apply using that.
Interns are selected based on the cover letter, the accuracy and attention to detail in their CVs and a little weight is given to the year in which the student is – the higher, the better.
Many law students consider working at an LPO to be an inferior choice. Why is this? What are your thoughts on the same?
The industry is still new and the general perception is that you do not get to do any cutting edge work – the work can be mundane and repetitive. However, nothing can be farther than the truth. Yes, a lot of work that LPOs do is repetitive but if you are bright, you can move up the chain quickly and participate in the decision making process – develop new solutions, work with clients directly and do things in a few years that would take you decades in a law firm. Expert Witness Profiler prepares background reports for attorneys not only because it is cheaper to use us (ORP does all the research), but also because many attorneys do not have the same resources or the research skills that our lawyers have developed through the years.
Lastly, what would be your message to law students and young lawyers who want to pursue entrepreneurship?
Just because one thinks that an idea is great and has a lot of potential should not be the only factor in deciding whether you want to go ahead with something. Most startups fail because there is no demand for the products or services they create. Therefore, it is really important to assess the market and make sure that you are either fulfilling a need that already exists or you would be able to educate your target market and create a need for your product or service.
Prof. Faizan Mustafa graduated from Aligarh Muslim University in History and Law. Thereafter, he pursued his doctoral research in Intellectual Property Law. He is currently the Vice Chancellor of NALSAR University of Law, Hyderabad, he was also the Founding Director of KIIT School of Law and National Law University Odisha, Cuttack.
He was also consulted in the drafting of Eritrean Constitution and Asian Human Rights Charter of Asian Human Rights Commission, Hong Kong. As a keen researcher and avid academician, Dr. Mustafa has authored several books and has about hundred national and International papers to his credit. Supreme Court of India has also quoted his article in its decision on the right to die. He has worked in unexplored areas like Copyright Law, HIV Law, Art.356, Strict Liability Law, Freedom of Information Law, Religious Conversion Laws, etc.
We requested him to share his views on:
His illustrious experience
Life in academia
Being a prolific author
How did you decide to opt for the field of law?
I was admitted in Allahabad University in 1982. My elder sister was doing her M.A. (History) and I used to read her History books and developed interest in History. Aligarh Muslim University’s academic session was delayed and therefore I got enrolled at Allahabad University. When I came for Durga Puja holidays, I received a call letter from AMU and since it was my desire to study History under Prof. Irfan Habib, I left Allahabad University and joined Aligarh Muslim University. I enjoyed my graduation in History at AMU and was taught by some of the best historians such as Prof. Athar Ali, Prof. Shireen Moosvi, Prof. M.A. Alvi, Prof. A.J. Qaiser, Prof. I.A.Khan, among others. Due to my interest in debating and having studied History quite well, I opted for Law and I thoroughly enjoyed my legal education at AMU Law Faculty. This University was the best place after Campus Law Centre, Delhi to study law at that point of time. The departmental politics in History Department was another contributing factor for me to leave the discipline which was my first love.
Do you feel that the legal profession has significantly changed from the time when you decided to study law?
I agree that legal profession has significantly changed from the time when I studied law. At that point of time most people did not do law out of choice as engineering and medicine were the prized courses. But the kind of diversity I had in my class was great as I had some B.Tech graduates and Post-Graduates of various subjects in sciences and humanities in my class. We had one M.B.B.S. graduate as well. The establishment of National Law School, Bangalore and other National Law Schools brought in a paradigm shift and law is today a very prestigious course. We attract very bright youngsters and they have proved their worth. The demography of Law Schools and colleges has completely changed in last 25 years.
Which areas of the law fascinated you the most as a law student?
Law Department of AMU was established in 1891 and this department has given maximum number of Vice-Chancellors to National Law Universities. Prof. Madhava Menon, Founder Vice-Chancellor National Law School, Bangalore and West Bengal National University of Juridical Sciences, Kolkata himself studied and taught at AMU. Prior to my joining law, some leading teachers of the University had already moved out of Aligarh or had gone abroad such as Prof. S.Dayal, went to Panjab University, Prof. S.C. Agarwal and Mrs. Agarwal went to Pune University. Prof.Tahir Mahmood went to Delhi University. Prof. Mohd. Ghouse had gone to Ananthapur University and several other Professors including Prof. M.R.Zafar and Prof.Syed Khalid Rasheed had gone to Nigeria but we still had Prof. S. Misbha-ul-Hasan who had studied at Yale, Prof. V.S.Rekhi who subsequently became founder Vice-Chancellor of National Law Institute University, Bhopal, Prof. M.Z.Siddiqui, Prof. Ahmed Siddique, Prof. Mustafa Ali Khan and Dr. Musheer Alam, Prof. G.A.Khan etc. on the faculty. All of them were great teachers and they have influenced me in a big way. Prof. M.Z.Siddiqui taught me for five years for LL.B., LL.M. and then guided my Ph.D. and proved to be a teacher, philosopher and friend in the true sense of the term. Prof. V.S.Rekhi was a great constitutional law teacher. Because of him I developed interest in this subject. Due to these teachers of great eminence, I developed interest in law particularly in criminal law and evidence. If you have a good teacher then learning becomes a fun activity and the teacher would help you in developing quest for clarity which would lead to good understanding of complicated legal problems. Law quickly became my second love.
What are the 3 most important tips that you would like to share with law students for consistently excelling in academics?
My three tips to students to consistently excel in academics are:
Develop interest in the subject you are doing
Read good text books and articles from the journals and finally
Never miss classes.
Why did you choose copyright law in particular as the subject for your Ph.D thesis?
Copyright was the 5th topic which I selected for my Ph.D. In 1980’s IPR was not there as a subject in most law colleges and faculties including Aligarh. Even today as per Bar Council of India regulations on legal education, IPR is only an optional subject. India was blacklisted by U.S. under Super 301 and this controversy about our IPR regime was responsible for choosing copyright law as a subject of my research. Moreover the country has just initiated a debate on the reforms which are to be brought in the Copyright Act of 1957. I believe that in addition to personal interest in choosing a Ph.D. topic, we should also think of its current relevance for the country.
What role do legal researchers and academics play in the Indian legal system?
Legal researchers and academics are not considered important stakeholders in our legal system. We have not yet appointed any professor of law as the Judge of the Supreme Court even though Art.124 of the Constitution explicitly talks about the appointment of an eminent jurist as Judge of the Supreme Court. The establishment of Law Schools and the involvement of Chief Justice of India as their Visitor and Chief Justices of High Court as their Chancellors has opened up avenues of dialogue between academics and judges and I am sure that this would help them to learn from each other.
Tell us about your Diploma in International and Comparative Human Rights from International Institute of Human Rights, Strasbourg, France.
The Strasbourg Course in International and Comparative Human Rights was an intensive course and had several processes of evaluation including a Moot Court in which you are given a problem to argue before European Court of Human Rights at Strasbourg. The course had good input of practical issues and helped me in understanding human rights problems. Human Rights was also not there as a subject in most law colleges including Aligarh. I introduced this subject at AMU Law Faculty.
How did you decide to go into academics?
I was persuaded to join teaching by my Dean Prof. M.Z.Siddiqui as per the tradition of the University to recruit Gold Medallists. I had qualified IAS Prelims but he asked me not to write Mains exam. I was appointed within one month of my completing LL.M. and since I had seen some of the best law teachers, I tried to emulate them and started enjoying teaching. My advice to law students who want to join academia is that the amount of autonomy which you get as a teacher you cannot get in any other field. Nobody is your boss and nobody writes your confidential appraisal reports.
When would you say that an academician is successful?
A teacher is successful if he is able to ignite fire in the minds of students. A law teacher would be considered successful if he has taught his students how to find law. He is not supposed to tell them what is Law. The goal of a legal academician should be to produce competent and socially relevant lawyers. Today anyone who is appointed as an Assistant Professor in Law and he is good would surely end up as Vice-chancellor of some National Law University. Thus in appointing Assistant Professors I also consider how would they shape up as Vice-Chancellor.
You were involved in the drafting of the Eritrean Constitution and the Asian Human Rights Charter. What were the most intellectually stimulating aspects of this experience?
Eritrea came out as a country out of partition from Ethiopia. Ethiopia was never colonized except Italian occupation of some parts of Eritrea for about five years. They had uninterrupted monarchy for about 3,000 years. They also had the experience of socialism prior to the drafting of the constitution. I gave number of suggestions on the fundamental rights and the government-people relationship. Similarly, Asian Human Rights Charter was drafted in 1995 and legal luminaries like Justice V.R. Krishna Iyer were involved in its drafting. As a young law teacher I learned great deal during the consultation on the drafting of this Charter. Justice Iyer’s presence and conversation with me are still fresh in my mind. I specifically recall sessions on Rights of Elderly and HIV patients which were indeed intellectually enriching.
How did you find time to produce so many scholarly articles?
(Dr. Mustafa has authored several books and have written approximately 100 national and international research papers on a large array of subjects pertaining to Information Law, Religious Conversion, HIV, the Right to Die, mandatory death sentence, etc. His article was also quoted by the Supreme Court in its decision on the Right to Die.)
I do not think I have written anything substantial. In fact I feel bad when I read my own writings. The only consolation which I get is that I tried to study areas of contemporary relevance. I took up Right to Information Law in 1995 and wrote another book on this subject in 2003. Parliament enacted a law on RTI in 2005. Similarly I had written on HIV Law some two decades ago but the country is yet to have a law on this subject. I had written on mandatory death sentence many years ago but we continue to have laws which still provide for mandatory death sentence in spite of it being held unconstitutional by the Supreme Court way back in 1983.
I had also written something on recognizing domestic work as work two years ago. Supreme Court of India was shocked to note that the work performed by the housewives is not considered as productive work and house-wives are clubbed together with prostitutes and beggars. Ministry of Welfare tried to salvage the situation and came up with a proposal whereby housewife would be paid 15% of the salary of their husband. I again opposed this proposal because it reduces wife to the status of an employee. Fortunately nothing happened thereafter.
I have also been writing on the inconsistency in the decision of the Supreme Court on the commutation of death sentence. ‘Right to Die’ has been another area of my interest and continues to be relevant because new BJP government proposes to delete Sec.309 from IPC. If you have an idea which you want to communicate with others or initiate debate on an important issue you will feel compelled to write. I think teaching schedule has no relationship with one’s writings as the maximum number of classes a Professor takes in a week is not more than twelve. Moreover, we have long winter and summer breaks. One can also take sabbatical to write books, etc.
Any time management tip for budding legal academics?
Time management is an individualistic trait. If a teacher writes even one paper a year, I think it is good enough. A good academic should spend lot of time in reading.
When would you say a legal academician is ready to start writing books?
One should write when one feels he must write. From one’s teaching one gets ideas for research and writing and therefore teaching and research go hand in hand. It is painful that good teaching is not given any importance in the selection committee of teachers. The focus is only on the number of publications. UGC should do something about it.
What, in your view, are the few most important skills that law students should strive to acquire in order to write research papers effectively?
I do not believe in teaching research methodology. I never taught this course. Research is like swimming and no amount of teaching can help you in learning it. You need to go in water and learn. Similarly you need to start writing, over the years you would improve your writing skills.
What have been the biggest challenges and impediments in building institutions?
(Dr. Mustafa is the founder Vice-Chancellor of National Law University, Orissa as well as the founder Director of KIIT Law School.)
I had a great time in Orissa and believe me I enjoyed every minute of my stay in Orissa. KIIT Law School is like second home to me and I feel more at ease in Bhubaneshwar than in Aligarh. Dr. Achyuta Samanta, Founder of KIIT University is a human being par excellence who believes in “art of giving”. He has too much of positive energy. He is a living legend of our time. He has set up Asia’s biggest tribal school with 25,000 students who are given education free of cost and the school takes care of their food and clothing. He gave me full freedom to set up a law school and I am sure in the years to come KIIT Law School would become a leading institution of legal education.
My challenge as founder Director was to create a space for KIIT Law School and I feel that KIIT Law School can be easily compared today with several National Law Schools. Establishing National Law University at Cuttack was my other significant assignment in Orissa and I got full support from the dynamic Chief Minister of Orissa. I continue to believe that NLUO was a unique experiment in terms of innovation in the curricula. My most effective strategy was to create ownership of NLUO amongst judges and lawyers of Orissa. We conducted first 3 admission tests and each year NLUO’s admission test was rated as the best law admission test of the year.
Do you think the reputation that precedes NLU’s far supersedes their actual quality?
There is some truth in it that with the establishment of National Law Schools the quality of law students has gone up but the quality of law teachers has gone down. But then it is the problem of all professional courses. We are not able to attract our brightest students to teaching. I feel the solution is to make B.A.LL.B. as the qualification for appointment as Assistant Professor. At NALSAR, I have succeeded in persuading some of our young graduates to join academia. Moreover I believe readymade teachers are not available anywhere. It is the duty of the Vice-Chancellor and other senior Professors to train youngsters. In the recruitment of Assistant Professors I always look at their potential and my ability to train the selected candidates in becoming a good teacher.
Does law school prepare its students adequately to face real life scenarios?
The Law School curricula may not be completely outdated. But it is certainly stressful. I am a firm believer of reducing academic stress. I also believe that the number of projects should be drastically reduced and the students should not be asked to do more than one project in a semester. Our curricula has not been made after receiving inputs from the industry. We need good Law School – Industry interface in preparing curricula. We should also accept the fact that classroom is not the only place of learning.
What do you have to say about top notch law schools being inaccessible to many owing to their fee structure?
Law schools are islands of excellence and should therefore just like IITs be directly funded by Ministry of Human Resource Development, Government of India. Due to the small number of students, the fee collection is very small and government has to give generous grants to these institutions to keep them functional. If government agrees to liberally fund then the fees would be automatically reduced.
What steps should be taken to usher in greater uniformity in the quality of legal education in the country?
1085 odd law colleges are in pathetic state and there is an urgent need to bring them at par with National Law Universities. Admission to all law colleges should be based on CLAT. If this is not possible, CLAT would collapse. Vacant teaching positions should immediately be filled and National Law Schools as part of their CRC should be asked to adopt at least one law college every year and give training to their teachers and help them in building libraries.
Any thoughts on the current system in place to train the Indian judiciary and continuous legal education of lawyers?
I think we should quickly have Indian Judicial Service in place to attract bright youngsters. National Judicial Academy and State Judicial Academies are doing well to train our judges. Judicial training is different from judicial education. National Law School and Judicial Academy, Assam is a novel experiment where law school and judicial academy have been integrated. A closer relationship between Judicial Academies and Law Schools may help us in the long run. A programme for training lawyers was also initiated by Government of India and I think it was a welcome step.
NUJS and GNLU have introduced online courses that are receiving much attention and attracting professionals from various backgrounds. What are your thoughts on these?
Online education is the in-thing today and a country of our size badly needs it. We run number of courses in the proximate and online onsite mode (P.G. Diploma in Cyber Law, Media Law, Patent Law, International Humanitarian Law, Two-Year Master’s Degree in Aviation Law and Air Transport Management (MALATM); Two-Year Master’s Degree in Space and Telecommunication Laws (MSTL); One-Year Post-Graduate Diploma in Aviation Law and Air Transport Management (PGDALATM) and One-Year Post – Graduate Diploma in GIS & Remote Sensing Laws). We need to further strengthen these courses. We are going to launch some new courses as well.
As the current Vice Chancellor of NALSAR, how do you feel NALSAR can take a greater role in social engineering in India?
In my opinion in terms of academics, NALSAR is doing exceedingly well and is the best destination for legal education in the country. I had introduced number of academic reforms such as flexible choice-based credit policy, huge number of electives, diversified project scheme etc. We are indeed producing highly competent law graduates. If we can produce some socially relevant lawyers it would be good for the country. We are offering number of unique courses which help our students in appreciating social issues.
Do you feel that there should be an independent CLAT body?
There is an urgent need to bring structured reforms in CLAT and compel all Law colleges of the country to admit students only on the basis of CLAT scores.
What would be your message to those hard working law students who did not make it to a top NLU but want to excel in the profession?
None of the leading lawyers of the country went to top National Law Schools. In the long run it does not matter from which institution you got your degree; if one is hard working one would surely succeed in life. There is no short-cut to success. Those who are not admitted to top National Law Universities should not feel frustrated, they are no less than anybody as CLAT or for that matter any competitive examination is not a perfect measurement of one’s merit and talent.
Prof. (Dr.) Ranbir Singh is the current Vice Chancellor of NLU, Delhi. Before taking charge at NLUD he had been at NALSAR, Hyderabad’s helm of affairs since its inception. Prof. Ranbir Singh had a long association with Kurukshetra University, as a student, as a PhD Scholar and then as a faculty member. Thereafter he moved onto Maharshi Dayanand University at Rohtak and continued there till he joined NALSAR. He has played a critical role in reviving legal education in the country and recasting it so as to make it more relevant to contemporary concerns.
In this interview we ask him about:
Difference between traditional universities and the NLUs
The legal education regime in India
Challenges faced by researchers & academics
Tell us a bit about your childhood.
I started my education in a village school and continued to study in a village till my higher secondary education. I belong to an educated family who knew the value of education and there was lot of emphasis on education. During this education I learnt to respect my teachers, my elders and I strongly believe without their blessings it is very difficult to achieve anything in life.
Why did you decide to opt for the field of law?
Initially, I never thought to join Law neither had I any idea about the legal profession. There was nobody in my family pursuing this profession. I was in fact trying to do an M.Sc. after my B.Sc. education, but family circumstances and destiny forced me to join Law and then I decided to pursue LL.M. and did Ph.D. I started my teaching career in 1974 at Kurukshetra University itself where I was a student for my B.Sc., LL.B., LL.M. and also Ph.D.
Teaching law is very stimulating and came as natural flair to me and as they say, “There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it”, best describes it.
What were the highlights of your journey as a law student?
[sociallocker] At Kurukshetra University, it was a tough journey initially, but this was a time when in the Law faculty we had best of teachers who were very dedicated and learned. The teaching staff was very good but there was a complete disconnect between the teachers and students in those days in the class rooms as there was no interaction and so teaching and learning did not happen simultaneously.
My favourite subject was Jurisprudence.
What, in your view, are the qualities that a law student should strive to possess in order to rise a notch above the rest?
The following are the basic qualities one should keep in mind to succeed as law student. Follow these Commandments for Success:
Attend classes regularly
Maintain proper discipline in campus and inside hostel.
‘NO’ to ragging
Proper dress code
No misuse of mobile and internet facility
Proper use of library and legal software
Taking part in Moot Court Competitions and other events like seminars/conferences/workshops and debates etc.
Jealously guarding the reputation of the Institution
Starting out, where did you envision your career would take you?
I chose Academics as I did not like the Court environment. When I was doing Law I visited courts and realised that this is not the place for me and so I pursued higher studies & came into academics.
Did you ever question — or did others question — your decision to focus on what some consider a less lucrative field than other fields in the legal profession?
In fact nobody questioned my decision to join Law and academics. I for one believe that, if you are seriously committed to achieve what you want to do and achieve it successfully, nobody questions you. Ultimately success silences your critics.
How different, would you say, are NLUs from traditional law institutions?
(Professor Singh has taught at traditional law faculties at Kurukshetra University and Maharshi Dayanand University as well as at National Law Universities such as NLSIU and NALSAR.)
My journey from a traditional university to Law School, Bangalore made me learn new ways of teaching and research in Law. My time at National Law School of India University (NLSIU), Bangalore was a turning point for my life, which helped me to acquire new teaching techniques and importance of research in legal education. In the era before 1980’s not many students came to law by choice, they came by chance and somehow succeeded. After the introduction of 5 year’s Law Degree Course in the year of 1983 and then with the establishment of first law school at Bangalore (NLSIU) in 1988. The students of this institution were admitted by the entrance exam and started to join Law by choice not by chance. The reforms in legal education started being taken up seriously.
My decision to accept the challenge and move from a traditional law faculty to NLSIU, Bangalore in 1996-97 made me realize the importance of challenges in life. I realised life is a big challenge, accept it if you aspire to achieve something higher in life.
How difficult has it been for you to find time to write research papers?
(Professor Singh has written on a diverse array of subjects including jurisprudence, human rights, legal education, personal laws, etc and have more than 50 publications to your credit.)
I always believe that if you have passion to do something you can always find time for it. I personally never felt that one is short of time for teaching and research. It is only a matter of setting your time table and academic priorities. Once one starts enjoying teaching and research and additionally prioritizes academic activities like seminar, conference etc, research work will automatically be carried on. There is so much research to do in almost all fields of Law that one can contribute to research in the big way which can be of great use to society.
How should law students go about selecting topics for research publications?
One should look for areas of interest in research and also for topics, where research is meaningful and useful to the society. The Editorial Board should additionally look at the hypothesis, the methodology, the advantage of research, critical component and conclusions etc matching with the overall concept of research undertaken.
What, in your view, are the biggest challenges that a young law student wanting to go into academia has to face in India?
The biggest challenge that a student has to face is getting into a good institute for legal education. All Law related activities whether in courts, corporate law firms etc. need a very strong research based approach to resolve their legal disputes effectively. With the Himalayan heaps of legislation passed by the Parliament and the state legislation in the last 2 decades, legal research has become more complex in the present circumstances. There are more challenges faced by legal researchers. Research in India was not taken seriously before the advent of the law schools with very few exceptions of some law faculties. But for the last 20 years or so legal research has picked up and there is an ever increasing upward trend in legal research and scholarship in India.
What are the biggest challenges that you had to face while building NALSAR?
(Professor Singh was the founder Vice Chancellor of NALSAR University of Law, Hyderabad.)
The biggest challenge of creating a law school in a State is to seek liberal financial support for the creation of the University and the infrastructure and then the having best of faculty. For me the biggest challenge was to create my own space for NALSAR University of Law, Hyderabad as NLSIU, Bangalore had already earned reputation of a prestigious institution in Law. I had a mandate not only to compete with NLSIU but also to work hard to overtake it as soon as possible. NALSAR University of Law, Hyderabad started in 1998 and 2008 it was rated as the best law school among the other law schools in India.
What are the factors that played the biggest role in NALSAR’s success?
It is easy and it is also difficult. It is easy if we have enough resources to motivate faculty for teaching, research and for organising and attending conferences. One has to motivate students to acquire technical and professional skills through moot court competitions and other activities and also have a dedicated non-teaching staff. If you don’t have any of these it will be difficult to create a good law school. Above all more important is a leadership factor in the institution, somebody who will have a vision and the capacity to take everybody along for achieving overall excellence and lead by example from the front.
You are also the founder vice chancellor of National Law University, Delhi. Tell us about the experience.
Compared to NALSAR I did not face much challenge at National Law University, Delhi because of the initiative of the Delhi High Court and also very liberal financial support from the Govt. NCT of Delhi. NLU, Delhi was fortunate to attract the best of senior and young faculty to teach and train the students in research.
At NLU, Delhi the faculty acquired a place of reputation in a very short span of time for itself by engaging in research and opening research centres and helping various Ministries, Commissions etc. in providing research inputs. The University is actively participating in preparation of reports i.e. Justice Verma Committee Report for amendments in Criminal Law and continues engagement with the Ministry of Law & Justice and Law Commission of India and also providing inputs to the Standing Committees of Parliament on Law.
What are the biggest challenges that you have had to grapple with as the Vice Chancellor of NLUD?
Initially, the biggest challenge was to create good infrastructure especially IT enabled classrooms and seminars, conference halls, etc. A good library with the most advanced legal data base in Law is essential for creating a good library along with the books, reports along with reference books. Library being the nerve centre of a Law schools for legal learning and research has to be given top priority.
The second challenge was to attract the best of students through our separate All India Law Entrance Test (AILET) and also the best of faculty. It should be possible by motivating faculty through liberal financial assistance for attending conferences, giving them academic space to grow, separate rooms for research and enough funding for research projects.
What is your vision for NLUD?
Within a short span of six years NLU, Delhi has already made a place for itself and it is reputed as one of the best Law Universities in the country. In a span of 10 years we are already on way to compete with the best of Law schools outside India.
As someone who played an instrumental role in the introduction of CLAT, how successful has the entrance test been in your opinion?
In fact, I should not comment on CLAT and the strategy which they have adopted as I am not a part of the CLAT. At the same time, since I was one of the main initiators of CLAT I deem it my duty to share it with you that CLAT would be a successful test format only when it has a centralised and permanent body responsible for maintaining the standards of CLAT and effectively conducting the tests. Main cause of criticism for CLAT has come because of the fact that the rotational policy conducting tests hasnot paid dividends because every school may not have the perfect expertise and vision as to what is the standard aptitude and skills to be examined in a legal test.
What are the pros and cons of having different entrance tests for different universities?
(NLU Delhi has a separate entrance test called AILET.)
CLAT was introduced only for the reason that it would be able to avoid multiplicity of tests which makes it difficult for students to focus fully on one entrance test. NLU, Delhi decided to go for a separate test mainly because we were not sure about the quality of the test and whether it would be conducted effectively, as CLAT was only in its second year of operation in 2008 when NLU, Delhi was established.
Do you think that standardized testing is the best way going forward?
In a country like India the foreign standards of testing may not be very successful. Because that requires higher degree of integrity. Emphasis should be on standards of the aptitude and skill tests related to Law.
Can you tell us about your association with institutions that seek to effect social and legal change?
(Professor Singh has been associated with several renowned institutions like the National Legal Services Authority, Indian Law Institute, National Police Academy, National Commission for Women, etc in an advisory role.)
Law is a great tool for social transformation and change. Effective Laws for social justice if effectively implemented can go a long way in solving problems of millions and millions of people in this country. Those who are have nots and down trodden, dalits, harijans and all those who belong to disadvantaged groups including Women and Children.
Do you think that the curriculum prescribed by the BCI equips law students with the skills necessary for solving real life problems?
I have been associated with Bar Council of India (BCI) for a long time and I think the course curriculum designed by BCI is perfectly fine as it leaves lot of scope for changes allowing changes according to local needs. Participative institutions can give importance to priority areas, but the problem lies somewhere else. Earlier the country was faced with the problem of mushrooming of 3 years law colleges with no infrastructure, library or the faculty. The same has started happening to 5 years law colleges which are almost more than 1000 in numbers, out of which not even 10% adhere to best standards and norms for good legal education. Unfortunately, for the last 20 years after the introduction of the ‘Rotational Headship Schemes’ in the law faculties and also because of ‘Automatic Promotion Schemes’ in the Universities, the standards of academic research and teaching have miserably come down.
What steps can be taken to turn law schools into justice schools?
Law schools have adopted the model of five years teaching in Law for acquiring Law Degree and all law schools have to compulsorily teach social science subjects i.e. Sociology, Economics, Political Science, History and Law Language and Literature. This criticism is more true and should be addressed to three years course in Law.
Do you think NLUs, owing to their fee structure, remain inaccessible to a large section of people?
Most of the NLUs and I have personal experiences of NALSAR Hyderabad and NLU, Delhi provide liberal financial assistance to all the category of students after they join law schools. I had a policy in this direction at both the Universities which we still follow. I have no instance to quote where any student has to leave the law school/university because he or she could not afford the education. The fee structure in the Law Universities is far less than a prestigious primary school in Delhi.
What is your view on the opinion that students pursue law only to get high paying jobs?
It is highly misplaced criticism because the law schools have this kind of criticism which has been faced by IITs and IIMs. But I shall like to answer this question by asking a counter question – as to why the products of law schools should not have the freedom to choose career of their own choice. The majority of the students admitted to these law schools are from middle class families and most of them are first generation students aspiring to have the Law degree. One can ask, is there any system in place in this country created by the BCI, the Bar Association of Supreme Court of India or the respective High Courts and by the Senior Advocates of the Supreme Court and High Courts including efforts if any by the Government to attract the young talent which is highly competent to join litigation. Since they fund their own education in their law schools joining the corporate law firms may be necessary for them. But at the same time in the present times not many students are going to corporate firms rather they are joining diverse fields including civil services. Let me share this with you that in the coming 10 years maximum candidates qualifying civil services will be from the law universities and they will overtake IITs.
Does law school put too much pressure on its students?
This kind of criticism applies to the best of professions and institutions like IITs, IIMs etc and Law Universities are not any exceptions. I for one don’t mind that if the students in the Law Universities have to work hard, wherein most of law colleges in the country are producing not even half baked lawyers.
What advice would you like to share with those hardworking students who were unable to get into the top NLUs?
Most of the Law Schools are a lot better than what they used to be during our time, still as a matter of fact a lot of us graduated started work and many are currently known internationally for their achievements. One should have the sense of pride where anybody joins; one should work hard to be professionally competent, technically sound and socially relevant to succeed in law education. Since, Law Universities have become a brand and known for good education, standards certainly vary from one institution to another. But, those students who work hard come out successful from all institutions.
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