Author: Donnie Ashok

Kanan Dhru, Founder, RFGI, LawToons, LawForMe, on being a Social Entrepreneur and work experience in Policy Research
Kanan Dhru graduated in B.Com from Gujarat University in 2003, thereafter she pursued Bachelor of Laws from the prestigious London School of Economics and graduated by 2006.

With her qualification in law, she started her versatile work life full of enviable achievements like being a member of a Prime Minister’s advisory body, consultant for Members of Parliament, and, interestingly, practising advocate at the Gujarat High Court.

Finally, the social entrepreneur in her motivated her to found the Research Foundation for Governance in India (RFGI) in 2009. RFGI is a think-tank that is working on legal and political reforms in India. Kanan is dealing with issues like backlog of cases, education for lawyers as well as engaging youth in governance through her work in RFGI.

Recently, she has founded LawForMe (an app that guides people to the answers to their legal queries with the help of flowcharts) and Lawtoons (a cartoon series on the basic laws of India). LawForMe has won the Innovating Justice award of the Hague Institute for the Internationalisation of Laws, 2014.

A successful woman social entrepreneur with a string of achievements at a very young age, Kanan talks about her thoughts, ideas, experiences and advice to young social entrepreneurs and law students.

Please introduce yourself to the readers telling us a little bit about your childhood and your background.

I come from a traditional Gujarati family. Our family is one of the old families of Ahmedabad. My grandmother’s grandfather has been instrumental in starting the Gujarat Law Society. The importance of arts and culture has been instilled in me since my childhood. My parents made a conscious decision to put me in C N Vidyalaya, a Gujarati-medium Gandhian school which stressed on simplicity, self-reliance and authenticity as the way of life. Children are taught to spin the wheel (and make Khadi cloth by themselves), agriculture, carpentry. In fact, our uniform was also made of Khadi!

A certain percentage of students came from nearby villages and their parents were farmers, daily labourers and the like. At the same time, there were students who came from well-to-do families and I grew up seeing inequalities all around me.

You studied Law after B.Com from Gujarat University. Was studying law an event of chance or an effect of a deliberate plan? What inclined you to choose law?

I always wanted to be a lawyer. Since I grew up questioning our unequal society, I wondered where did the answers lie and where does the buck stop? I saw that all our leaders were lawyers and that by getting the education in justice delivery, I can help create a fairer society.

You have completed your Bachelor of Laws from the prestigious London School of Economics. How different is the style of teaching at LSE? Do they focus more on the practical aspects of law as compared to the NLUs?

My exposure to the education system at NLUs has come from my younger sister, who studied at one of them. At LSE, the teaching methodology is highly analytical. Emphasis is put on the nature and need of law in the society and the ingredients of rule of law. The black letter law becomes the focus only after graduation – just before the graduate decides to take up the path of becoming a solicitor or a barrister.

Why did you choose a foreign university to pursue Law instead of an Indian law school?

While I was very clear about pursuing law, my parents wanted me to study law from a good university. I did apply for NLUs after my 12^th standard, but at that time, the application system was different. Every university had a different application system. I only applied to NLSIU and NALSAR and frankly, did not make it to either.

Tell us about your time at LSE. How was the academic pressure? Tell us about campus life at LSE. How difficult was it for you to adjust to a U.K. based education system?

My time at LSE was fabulous – my horizons were expanded manifolds. Of course, the delivery of lectures and communication during the classes was very different and I had to adjust to the change in the teaching methodology.

Along with studies, I slowly started involving myself in the extra-curricular activities on campus. I became the editor of the law society’s legal journal, started SPICE (Society for the Promotion of Indian Culture and Ethos) and also founded India Week – one of the prominent celebrations on the LSE campus – where we hosted Professor Amartya Sen and involved the Indian Embassy in the founding year. I was awarded the ‘Honorary Studentship’ by the LSE Student Union – which is awarded to 20 students in the graduating batch every year.

What kind of internships did you do while you were an LSE student? Are there any remarkable experiences during your internships that shaped your career choices later?

In the first year, I interned at Nishith Desai Associates in India and in the second year, I interned with the World Health Organisation (WHO) in Geneva.

Honestly, the WHO experience was quite significant since I was able to meet and interact with a very different set of people, mainly health professionals, and I was able to have very in-depth conversations with them. There were many people from the USA, whom I found really open and friendly.

At WHO, I was able to see how an international organisation functions and how it is able to create dialogue across stakeholders. I also saw how different countries could get themselves represented at the international platforms. This fascinated me and made me start thinking about policy work in India.

How did you secure your appointment at the NKC? What was the nature of your work at the NKC?

(After graduating from LSE, Kanan came back to India and worked at the National Knowledge Commission for a year. The NKC is one of the Prime Minister’s Advisory body.)

After coming back to India, I was still looking at different options. My father encouraged me to apply for the National Knowledge Commission. However, I wondered how could I secure a place at such a prestigious institution? I wrote an email directly to Sam Pitroda (then head of the NKC) with my CV and to my surprise, he replied positively the very next day!

Working at the NKC was an extremely enriching experience. I was able to travel across the country and work with a team of highly accomplished individuals driven towards the development of the nation. I worked on issues such as library development, entrepreneurship and traditional knowledge. It was at the NKC that I realised that in order to create a sustainable impact through any policy, law played a crucial role. I decided to start practicing law then.

You left NKC and started your independent practice as an Advocate at the Gujarat High Court. Do you think that was the perfect time for you to go independent?

Practicing law fascinated me. I believed that by gaining exposure to litigation, I would be able to see how law was actually implemented in the society. This became clearer after my NKC stint.

I did not strategise the timing. It just felt like the right thing to do!

How did you overcome your initial jitters in a courtroom full of experienced lawyers and judges? Tell us about the highs and the lows.

The atmosphere in the court is indeed quite overwhelming and intimidating for any youngster. However, people around me constantly kept on asking me why I joined litigation after a law degree from LSE! There were also those who asked me whether I was actually serious about litigation or whether I was there to find a suitable partner for marriage.

As a junior, I was lifting files and running around the courtrooms, keeping time for my senior lawyers lest their case comes up. I was quite disappointed at the fact tht this was how I had to start gaining the exposure.

I was even more disappointed to see that ‘justice’ was so slow to attain – the entire machinery to deliver justice seemed quite inefficient and I saw how so many people had to wait for years to obtain justice. It was a question of their lives and they were going from pillar to post, and still they did not know what their rights were!

There were so many different kinds of lawyers! I met lawyers who were part-time tailors or rickshaw-drivers and then there were those who owned a Mercedes or a BMW and had really fancy offices. Were their clients equally represented?

I kept wondering why things were not moving faster. Did we really need all these difficult jargons and procedures for fairness to prevail?

My experience in the court made me realise that something drastic had to be done to change the way the legal machinery operated and that’s how RFGI was born.

Please tell us about your experience with your first few sessions in court. Has it become more difficult for a fresher to achieve success nowadays?

How and when you get a chance to appear in the court depends on a lot of things. It depends on who is your senior lawyer – is he/she your relative? – if that’s the case or if you have good relations with your senior, then your chances to appear would be higher. Else, you might have to push the files for quite a while before you are actually entrusted with a matter. Usually the judges are quite encouraging to youngsters.

The first case I got to argue was a case of the year 1982 where a bus conductor had sued the state bus company, because of whose negligence he had to get his leg amputated. The amount claimed was around Rs. 14,000 plus interest. I put forward my argument and got the judgment in the favour of the bus conductor, but when I tried to inform him about the outcome, I realised that he had passed away a few years ago.

All these factors led me to start taking my work at RFGI seriously.

Tell us about your “Management Matters Project’’. What was your role and responsibilities in this Project?

(Kanan undertook this Project at London School of Economics, McKinsey & Co. [New Delhi] and also at Stanford University)

When I was at LSE, I got through a project between LSE and McKinsey & Co. to assess the management practices of manufacturing companies across different countries. It was a fascinating project and I learnt a lot about management and what factors contributed to better management practices across geographies. I also saw how the national regulatory and physical infrastructure had an important part to play.

When McKinsey wanted to roll out this project in India, I got involved and spent time in their Gurgaon office to help set up the initial team. Similarly, even at Stanford, I was invited to help train the first batch of analysts.

Tell us about the story behind RFGI. What challenges did you face to establish an institution like RFGI? What does RFGI do and what is your job profile in the think-tank?

(Kanan went on to establish and head a think-tank called “Research Foundation for Governance In India’’. RFGI today consists of 3000 members, working on legal and political reforms in India.)

As I mentioned before, it was my experience at the High Court that led me to create a platform to raise a voice about needing a change within the legal systems, which took form in the shape of RFGI.

However, initially the idea was to bring together youngsters who wanted to create a change within the governance systems in India and the mandate was quite open ended. Youngsters from different backgrounds started getting involved on a variety of issues. We started organising public debates and conducting research studies on issues such as entry barriers to litigation (which was to understand what are the barriers junior lawyers face to establish themselves in litigation), understanding the status and need for inner party democracy in political parties, analysing the status of legal education among others. We started collaborating on projects with Accountability Initiative (at Centre for Policy Research), with some of the professors at IIM-A, Government agencies and also started to work with a large number of young political party representatives across party lines. Along with this, we started hosting interns from different parts of the world.

RFGI became a hub of different thought processes and discussions on governance in the city of Ahmedabad and we started gaining accolades from various corners. We started going to different schools and interacting with children on laws and rights.

Our work profile was to work on research, awareness and consultancy on legal and political reforms related areas in India and to involve youngsters in the process of governance. The entire organisation was working in the spirit of volunteerism.

Besides working on RFGI, you have contributed your knowledge set as a consultant for members of Parliament of India. Please tell us about your time as their consultant.

Our work at RFGI and our profile as lawyers wanting a change in the society got us to work with a Member of Parliament on drafting of a legislation. In fact, after my work at the NKC, I was involved with the Education Department of Gujarat in drafting of several bills and ordinances. Our work with the Member of Parliament was to draft a couple of private members bills. It was fascinating work and the impact that we could create with drafting of laws was far reaching.

What prompted you to take an offer of teaching in spite of working full time for RFGI? What was your teaching methodology there?

(Kanan taught Ethics in Business and Business Law as a Visiting Faculty to final year Business students in Ahmedabad University.)

When I was approached specifically to teach ‘Ethics’, I was intrigued. The subject sounded fascinating and I thought it might be a great chance to learn something. Teaching Ethics really changed me. As a teacher, I have always believed in encouraging class participation instead of preaching. The boundaries of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ that Ethics forces us to delve upon makes you start questioning many of your pre-conceived notions. I challenged the thought premises of my students and tried making them better in tune with themselves.

In between, you have also pursued Masters in Public Administration from IGNOU. What was the reason behind pursuing this course? Tell us about the course structure and the utility of this course.

Since I was working in the field of governance, I wanted to have knowledge of the theoretical aspects of policy making and administration. Masters in Public Administration felt like the most relevant degree for me.

Honestly, I was dabbling between an MBA (to understand how to grow a social enterprise) and an MPA. I also got the Fulbright Fellowship to pursue an MBA in USA but could not take up that offer due to unfavourable circumstances.

Our readers would be keen to know about your recently started websites “LawForMe’’ and ‘’LAWTOONS’’. What led to the foundation of these two websites? What advantage can law students get from these two websites?

I can’t express it in fewer words. I would request the readers to read: https://www.facebook.com/notes/579275265508546/ and here’s a brief about Lawtoons: http://www.hindustantimes.com/art/lawtoons-a-comic-series-to-teach-children-their-rights/article1-1281611.aspx

How does it feel to be well recognised at such an early stage in career? And how has your journey as a Social Entrepreneur and Legal Innovator been so far?

(Apart from being an Acumen India Fellow, Kanan has won the Innovating Justice Award, (2014) and was also selected as an ‘Indian of Tomorrow’ by India Today (2012))

Acumen’s India Fellows Program is addressing the country’s most pressing social issues by supporting a new generation of Indian leaders willing to challenge broken systems and develop new, inclusive solutions to create impact. Each year, the India Fellows Program brings together up to 20 emerging leaders from different regions, sectors, and socio-economic backgrounds in India. I am honoured to be selected as one of the 20 fellows this year.

My journey as a social entrepreneur and legal innovator has been quite fascinating and often introspective. As they say, when you are on a journey to create a better society, it may also be a pathway towards your internal journey and vice versa.

Starting RFGI and winning the Innovating Justice Prize are some of the milestones in your career. Tell us about your success mantra.

Perhaps what has worked for me is that I focus on what work is to be done and not what I will get out of it. ‘Focusing on work as an end in itself’ is my mantra.

Please tell us about your two books and how do you get time to pen for the daily newspapers and blogs?

(Kanan is a regular blogger and columnist for The Huffington Post, Femina Gujarat, Daily News & Analysis and were a former columnist with Times of India (Gujarat). Kanan has also authored two books ‘Kanan Chan in Japan – Diary of an exchange student’ (2003) and authored a book of poems ‘Amara Manma’.)

Since childhood, I have always loved reading and writing. Writing is a very introspective process and it makes me really happy when I write. It is easy to find time for something that you love! Plus, Ahmedabad being a less happening city, it leaves one with a lot of time to pursue their hobbies and interests!

How do you think knowing law benefits an entrepreneur? What are the prime hurdles that a non-lawyer entrepreneur is likely to come across?

Being an entrepreneur is all about the will and the aptitude. Being a lawyer or a non-lawyer has little role to play. Of course, a lawyer is more attuned to understanding the regulatory process or has in-built analytical thinking. After that, it is the business acumen and the communication skills that create wonders. Introspection is also an important trait for any self-starter.

What are your thoughts about raising capital for RFGI? Have you approached any Foundations?

We believe that our work has potential to make significant impact. While money isn’t really a great motivator, we believe that through social entrepreneurial ideas such as Lawtoons and LawForMe, we will be able to sustain our work.

When you hire people under you, what kind of skills and profile do you look for? How can law students or marketing students go about developing these skills?

At RFGI, we usually invite anyone who has his/her heart in the right place. It is a platform to do good work and everyone is welcome! However, over time we have realised that most interns join because they want a certificate, which is such a shame. Now we have become far stricter in looking for the right fit.

For legal interns, we look for interns who know the law and who respect deadlines. What is fundamentally important is that the person should have a belief about bringing a change in the legal system and creating innovations in law – to have his/her heart in the right place. Rest all can be taken care of.

What does it take to be a Social Entrepreneur and Legal Innovator? What are the three great skills of an entrepreneur according to you? What differentiates the best from the rest?

Honestly, I have always followed my heart and did what I thought was the right thing to do. It has not always been easy – but it has been worth it. Three great skills of an entrepreneur according to me are:
- Knowing one’s self well (knowing what you stand for, your likes and dislikes and the non-negotiables as well as your limitations)
- Knowing that you can be wrong too (humility)
- Knowing that your dreams will come true
How has the journey been for you as a woman entrepreneur?

Somebody once told me that the value of RFGI is also because it represents the voice of a young female on governance and legal system. I consider this an honour. I think my journey has been exciting and full of interesting ups and downs. Being a woman entrepreneur has been both positive and negative.

At times, I wonder what my journey would have been if I were a guy? Perhaps I would have been taken more seriously in our society, perhaps I would not have so many social pressures to fit into a specific box, perhaps I would have been a lot more aggressive in my work, perhaps my life would have been easier.

But then, I feel that it is because I am a woman, I need to do what I do – even with more enthusiasm and self-belief.

Your main object is to work towards legal reforms in India through Research Foundation for Governance in India, Lawtoons and LawForMe. Where do you want to see yourself five years down the line?

5 years down the line, I see Lawtoons and LawForMe as flourishing entities, making laws and legal processes simple and easily understood. RFGI would of course be the umbrella organisation facilitating dialogue and discussion on access to justice.

I also aim to see many more legal start-ups in India and a thriving ecosystem providing access to justice in India.

I don’t know much about myself but about the legal system in India, I have so many dreams! I want to see a legal culture in India where justice is a primary value, respected and enforced fairly and efficiently. I want to see a culture of legal aid actively provided to those in need and where efforts are being made to make people aware about laws and rights. I visualise the legal climate where with the help of technology, access to justice has become easy, process faster and transparency is taken for granted. I don’t know if 5 years is too short a time for this dream to materialise but my efforts will continue in this direction for sure.

Is there scope for legal internships in RFGI? If so, what is the process of application?

We are highly selective about the interns we take. Please email info@rfgindia.org for internship opportunities.

Tell us a bit about mountaineering. Did you take any hard-core training before climbing? Why have you chosen this hobby which needs maximum tenacity and mental strength?

(Kanan has scaled Mount Kilimanjaro in 2012 and has travelled over 30 different countries.)

While I am very passionate about my work, I am also thoroughly interested in traveling, sports (yes, I love playing tennis!) reading, knowing about different cultures and outdoor adventures. Being with nature is so important! Work is important but it is equally important, if not more, to grow as a person. The extra-curricular activities do make you a stronger and more composed person. Over time, I have also grown very curious about understanding human nature and I keep reading about it every now and then.

I have travelled over 30 countries and have gathered so many interesting experiences. In fact, on my Japan trip alone, I have written a book called ‘Kanan Chan in Japan’! Perhaps Super Lawyer should do another interview with me to capture those insights! J

What is your message for law students who aspire to be Social Entrepreneurs one day?

“Follow your heart and take risks. You only live once.”
September 6, 2015
Himanshu Sharma, MBA Candidate, IIM Ahmedabad, on all about studying MBA from IIMA
Himanshu Sharma is a recent graduate from Gujarat National Law University, GNLU (2015). In his final year, he cracked Common Admission Test (CAT) to secure his admission in IIM-Ahmedabad. During his time in Law school, he interned at FICCI in their Intellectual Property Facilitation Centre, New Delhi and was a judicial clerk working under Justice Kurian Joseph.

In this interview he talks about:
- His Law school experience;
- His work at FICCI and with Justice Kurian Joseph; and
- All about cracking CAT and getting through IIM Ahmedabad
- Faculty, facilities and the atmosphere at IIM-A.
Himanshu, tell us a bit about yourself.

I am currently a student of PGP-1 (MBA in colloquial terms) at Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad. I completed my graduation from Gujarat National Law University, Gandhinagar in 2015 and joined IIM-A after a barely month long break. I am a native of Dharamshala (H.P.) and love spending my time reading and gaming.

Tell us a bit about your childhood and pre-college life. Did you have lawyers in your family?

I grew up and attended school in the hill towns of Shimla and Dharamshala. My pre-college life was very calm and laid-back with not much academic pressure as such. I used to spend much time playing video games. Interestingly, I am the first lawyer in my family. My extended family comprises solely of doctors and teachers.

Why did you decide to study Law? What inspired you to do so?

Law as a career was not my first choice. I was a science (non-medical) student in Class XII and was keen on pursuing engineering post school. However, during my last year in school, I realized that Law as a career also interested me. So I prepared for CLAT as well. The CLAT rank turned out to be really good and my parents convinced me that for a person like me, Law would be a much better option than engineering as they believed my skills were more suited towards it. Looking back, I somehow feel that taking up Law was one of the best decisions of my life, as it exposed me to a much broader learning experience than what would have been possible pursuing engineering.

How was your experience at GNLU, Gandhinagar? How did you go about your academics as well as extra-curricular activities? Were you into mooting?

The five years at GNLU have been nothing short of fantastic. I met amazing people here, learnt from some of the best teachers and did almost everything possible under the sun that I felt like doing. Academics at GNLU was not much of a burden as the course was evenly spread out over the different semesters. Any difficulties that I faced were resolved with the help of teachers or friends and seniors. GNLU students are also lucky to have a very active extra-curricular life. Almost every fortnight there used to be some activity or the other, ranging from simple music nights to week long sports leagues. I took part in as many as I felt comfortable with. I was not much into mooting as getting into mooting is a serious affair and time and energy needs to be dedicated. I represented the University in only two national moots, once in my first year and the next time in my third year.

How was your experience serving various student committees at GNLU?

The only committee I served in GNLU was the sports committee, which was a very good experience as it led to bonding with many people I would not have known otherwise. Working for the sports community at GNLU was also a pleasure. Also, from the experience of seeing my friends work with various committees, I cannot stress enough the hard work put in by such committees for the benefit of students. Whether it is the SAC or the MCC or the LSC, they keep on working throughout the year for the betterment of the student community at GNLU.

Give some insights of your internship experience at FICCI in their Intellectual Property Facilitation Centre, New Delhi.

I interned at the IP Facilitation centre of FICCI, New Delhi as IPR has always been my favourite area of Law since a long time. The work there mostly comprised of research on various ongoing events in the IP sector. A substantial work assigned to me was the preparation of a course booklet on IPR for high school students, to introduce them to the basics of IP Law and their importance. The work turned out to be quite challenging as the booklet had to be designed keeping in mind the limited exposure to Law for the students. Overall, the internship was a fun and learning experience. The interns also got the opportunity to meet luminaries in the field of IP Law at times.

You did a Judicial Clerkship at Himachal Pradesh High Court under Hon’ble Chief Justice Kurian Joseph. What is the process of application? What do you think contributed to your selection?

Interning under Hon’ble Justice Kurian Joseph was a wonderful experience. One of my batchmates and I both applied through the Registrar of the High Court and both got selected for the internship. However, the final decision was taken by the Hon’ble Chief Justice himself after having a short conversation with both of us. It would be really difficult to quantify the criteria of selection but I think all that mattered were that we were confident and open to learning.

What kind of assignments did you get and what was your nature of work as an intern?

The assignments were almost always about some small technicality that had arisen in some matter being adjudicated by the Justice Joseph. Rather than the work though, it was the few small discussions we had with Justice Joseph in his free time that provided us with a much better understanding of various aspects of Constitutional and Administrative Law. The whole experience also contributed much towards my learning of our judicial system.

You are also interested in sports and were a member of the University Sports Committee and University Basketball Team. Tell us a bit about it.

Being involved in every co-curricular or extra-curricular activity is not of much use if the same is done just for the sake of it and is not enjoyed. I think students would be at no loss if they focus on say one or two such activities only, if they enjoy what they are doing. From the perspective of enhancing the profile though, especially from the perspective of attending a B-school later, taking part in as many co-curricular or extra-curricular activities as you can is beneficial in the long run, as thy help distinguish you from other candidates during admissions.

What prompted you to choose MBA after graduation and why not an LL.M or a Law firm job?

I had not even thought much about post-graduation till my 3^rd year. But as the 3^rd year was almost ending, I realized that I really did not have much enthusiasm in me towards a corporate Law firm job. I found corporate Law to be very procedural and mundane. Pursuing IP Law was another option for me, but I felt that it would restrict me to a very niche field. So I gradually drifted towards going for post-graduation. I did not rule out an LL.M. right away, but somehow chose to go for an MBA over it as it seemed to offer better benefits in the form of diverse learning as well as a different career path. A very close friend also played an instrumental role in motivating me for pursuing an MBA.

When did you exactly start preparing for the CAT? When should a person ideally start preparation for the CAT and other management exams?

I started preparing for CAT and other entrance exams when I started my 4^th year at GNLU. So essentially, I prepared for almost one and a half year. However, I would not say that this is the ideal time limit for anyone who wants to prepare for the same. I have seen people cracking CAT after preparing for just four to six months, while some have taken close to 3-4 years to get into a B-school of their choice. It all depends on the kind of effort a person is willing to put in. I took more time because I was not very comfortable with the Quantitative section. Also during the first year of preparation, I prepared at a leisurely pace, putting in approximately 8-10 hours of work in a week.

Did you get yourself enrolled in a coaching institute? How valuable do you think coaching institutions can be for MBA?

I enrolled myself in a coaching institute as soon as I started preparation for CAT. For me, it was very valuable as they provided a comprehensive set of study material and scheduled mock exams at regular intervals. Having classes regularly also helped me pace my preparation as per a fixed schedule and not lag behind in any particular topic. The input of the coaching institution was even more valuable while preparing for the interviews as they guided me very well on how to handle and be confident during all sorts of interview scenarios.

Which coaching institute did you go to? Was it possible for you to attend every class?

I studied at a coaching institute named ‘Endeavor Careers’, with the center located approximately 4 km from the University. The classes were scheduled on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays from 7-9 pm. There was a study room that was open 24 hours, 365 days a year. There was also a well-stocked library for the CAT aspirants to hone their English skills. Extra classes were also scheduled sometimes on weekends. Additionally, once the mock tests started, students were allotted slots for the same based on their preferences so as to avoid any clash with college schedules. I would say I roughly attended 90% of the classes, missing out mostly when I went for my internships or had some prior personal engagement. Backup classes were provided by the institute whenever students missed a class for a genuine application. Also, at the end of my 4^th year, I opted not to go for internships and stayed in the University campus during May and June so that I could attend classes at the institute.

How many hours did you put in for your preparations every day? Is it important to have a fixed schedule or weekly targets?

As said earlier, it all depends on the person. For the first year, I would study a maximum of 2-3 hours a day. However, in the last six months, I studied anywhere from 4-8 hours daily, depending on my other workload. I had my fixed schedule only in the form of classes that I attended at my coaching institute. Other than that, I mostly stuck to determining weekly or fortnightly targets and then reaching them at my pace.

How did the other management entrance tests like MAT & XAT turn out to be?

I took exams for other institutes such as XAT, IIFT, NMAT, etc. I cleared some of them while in some I did pretty badly. It all boils down to not losing your nerve and remaining calm when you have a set time limit to attempt a lot of questions. CAT however, gave me the chance to get into the best B-school of the country.

CAT is one of the toughest management exams. How did you prepare and accustom yourself with these tough subjects?

CAT can be said to be one of the toughest management exams, but all it requires is knowledge of English, High School level Mathematics, and Logical Reasoning. All these can be prepared easily over time. CAT anyways does not test the conceptual knowledge of candidates solely; rather it places more emphasis on the application of this knowledge. Then it becomes important for the candidate to have a calm and analytical approach towards questions, thinking about the best ways to attempt it, and not just approaching it in a conventional way.

Which books/materials did you rely on while preparing?

I only referred to the study material provided to me by my coaching institution for preparation, as it was more than sufficient to cover all topics.

Lakhs of people attempt the CAT exam and only a thousand get shortlisted for the interview and secure admission to a top B – School. Which are the prime skills and expertise required to crack the CAT?

What my experience with CAT tells me is that in the end, what matters is your approach towards the exam, rather than your preparation for it. If you approach it with a calm and rational mind, you will crack it. Since wrong answers carry a negative score, it is very important to be confident of your answers. Questions can be tricky, generally the most obvious (but wrong) answer would be the first option. So you need to analyse a problem from all angles and be sure that you have not missed out on any important information. Also, I have seen many brilliant candidates faring badly in the exam because their nerves got the better side of them. Being calm and confident is thus the key to cracking CAT.

What strategy did you take to crack the interview?

I got approximately 22 days to prepare for the interview after the shortlist for IIM Ahmedabad came out. It was my first interview for any of the B-schools I had applied to and so I was quite nervous in the initial days. Over the days, however, I put in a lot of effort towards preparation and grew more confident. I read up a lot about the current events happening in the world, as well as our country. I had been reading newspapers regularly for the past couple of months so it was not that difficult. I also brushed up many of the subjects I had studied in Law school with the help of my friends and teachers. My coaching institute mentors also conducted many mock interviews with me, which helped a lot in getting a feeling of the real day.

What kind of questions have you been asked in the interview? Give some tips to nail an interview in order to secure admission to a top B–School.

For IIM Ahmedabad, the interview lasted around 30-35 minutes. The initial 20 minutes were spent on academic questions. In the very beginning, the interviewers asked me my favourite subjects in college (IPR and Constitutional Law were my answers). The discussion moved from the benefits of IP protection, to the Novartis case and finally to the newly formed NITI Aayog. The latter part of the interview was mostly about current affairs and how comfortable I was with solving a question on probability. There were also some general questions about my family, my taste in literature and movies, and a very unexpected technical question on basketball.

For other institutes, such as XLRI or other IIM(s), the interviews were again broadly based on academics, current affairs and situational questions. What I feel is that for a B-school interview, firstly you have a decent hold of your academic subjects and world affairs, and secondly, you should be able to convince the interviewers that you are open to learning and will contribute to the institution.

Which subject interests you the most? Share with our readers.

IIM Ahmedabad does not have any diversification between different streams. In the first year, all courses are compulsory, with optional courses being offered in the second year. As of now, I find myself interested in Consulting and Marketing.

How is the academic pressure at IIM-A? What is a normal workday like?

The academic pressure at IIM-A (or any other B-school) is much more intense than at a Law school. Classes here are from 8:45 am to 1:10 pm, five days a week. Most subjects use a case based approach to teaching, so the required cases for each class have to be studied and understood the previous day. Additionally, all the quizzes (tests as they are called here) are surprise quizzes, with a quiz being held one hour post its announcement in the afternoon. There is also work involved if a student is the member of any club or committee. A normal workday essentially involves reaching the class in time, waiting for a quiz announcement at 1:45 pm if any. Then it’s either giving the quiz at 2:45 pm or catching a few hours of sleep if there is no quiz. Evenings can be spent studying, playing or engaged in any other activity. Post dinner it is usually class preparation for the next day. A student cannot miss classes other than for health reasons or on account of some urgent work that requires so.

Tell us a bit about the faculty and the facilities of IIM-A.

The faculties with whom I have had interactions till now are experts in their respective fields of study, holding post-doctoral degrees. Classes here are interactive, with the faculty putting much emphasis on student participation. In terms of facilities, we have a 24 hour library, sports facilities for all major sports, gymnasia, 5-6 cafes (with room delivery available) in addition to the mess, single occupancy rooms and LAN connectivity in rooms (in addition to WiFi).

Tell us a bit about the cultural environment at IIM-A. Are most of them young students or senior professionals?

My batch here consists of a heterogeneous mixture of students from all sorts of backgrounds. There are freshers like me, while there are also students with 4-5 years of work experience. In addition to engineers, we have chartered accountants, commerce/ economics graduates and doctors in the batch. There is a healthy representation from almost all the states of the country. This results in a very diverse cultural and professional environment, which in turn greatly amplifies the learning experience of the students.

What all activities can one partake of at IIM-A?

There is no dearth of activities to take part at IIM-A. It is purely left to the choice of the students. There are clubs focusing on all sorts of activities, ranging from the likes of technology and finance to the likes of music/ movies and stargazing. There are also a lot of competitions in diverse fields of management to take part in. Additionally, students can also volunteer in social initiatives such as Prayaas and SMILE, both of which cater to providing education for underprivileged children.

Where do you want to see yourself five years from now?

Well, to be unabashedly optimistic, I would like to see myself as a partner of a consulting firm or in the senior management of an FMCG company after five years. However, to be realistic, my life at IIM Ahmedabad has just started and I would like to learn more about the opportunities available, before I decide on a career path.

Would you like to be an entrepreneur after finishing MBA?

Law and Management is one of the most potent combinations when it comes to economic activities as both are inextricably linked in the larger scheme of running businesses.

As of now, I have not considered pursuing any entrepreneurial venture. However, IIM Ahmedabad has its very own Centre for Innovation, Incubation and Entrepreneurship which helps students pursue and kickstart their ventures. So in case I do get bitten by the entrepreneurial bug, I would be more than happy to pursue my own venture.

What is your message for Law students who want to choose MBA as a career after pursuing Law?

In India, MBA after pursuing Law is not very common, and I had had my shares of frowns and weird looks when initially I told people of my decision. Their usual reaction used to be that this kid has gone bonkers, an MBA is not for lawyers. However, I had the full support of my family and friends, who kept me motivated throughout my preparation period.

I believe that an MBA is a very valuable degree especially for a lawyer, as each and every business is inextricably linked with Law in the larger scheme of things. Leading a business can thus be relatively easier for a person who understands the intricacies of the Law within which the business has to operate. Also, there are hardly any non-engineers and non-commerce students in Indian B-schools. Thus students with a background like Law or medicine are highly valued due to the diverse skill set they bring to the institution. If a person is keen on going to a B-school, he/she should just be sure about it and prepare with confidence. The Law degree will only help in later stages, and never be a hampering factor.
September 2, 2015
Charitha Shashiraj, LL.M Candidate, Harvard Law School, on all about Harvard and Magic Circle Traineeship
Charitha Shashiraj graduated from NALSAR, Hyderabad in 2014. She went for a Vacation Scheme at Linklaters and Allen & Overy and thereafter, secured a job at Linklaters, London. However, she chose to pursue an LL.M from Harvard Law School over the Magic Circle job.

In this interview she talks about:
- Application and the admission process at Harvard Law School
- Faculty, facility and opportunities at Harvard
- Application process and importance of vacation schemes in Magic Law Firms
How did you choose law as a career option?

I’m a first-generation lawyer in my family and when I was in school, like most people I harbourednotionsof lawyers as peoplewho milled around in courts in billowing black robes.So law was not something I had planned to doinitially, I was more of a math-and-science-freak. A friend of mine who was a year up in school convinced me otherwise after joining NLS.

I think it was CLAT that brought home the point that law was as much about logic, reasoning and creativity as the sciences. And when I was cleared to go to one of the best law schools in the country at the time, I took it as a sign.

How was your NALSAR experience?

NALSAR gave me opportunities that I know I would have found nowhere else and I cannot emphasize how grateful I am for it.

I went to Singapore for an exchange programme in my third year, mooted at national and international moots, wrote papers, chaired editorial boards, taught the junior batches, interned at every opportunity and so much else, and did well at almost everything only because NALSAR gives us the resources and support to excel not just at academics, but at other things as well. Throughout law school, I learned to open my mind and question established norms in society. Activism and social change is a huge dimension of NALSAR’s education and while I might not always have been an active participant, I never failed to appreciate that it was the best part of law school. Ultimately, we had the best of everything- intellectual discussions peaked, top tier law firms in the country vied to take us, Magic Circle firms from London came down for interviews and the best universities in the world opened their gates for us.

Tell us a bit about the Entrepreneurship and Business Law Diploma online programme from NUJS. How did it help you?

The EABL course attracted my attention primarily because something of this nature was almost unheard of in Indian law schools. Law students are often heard complaining that there’s not much we draw from classes on corporate law when it comes to actually working in a law firm. In that respect, the EABL Diploma course was bound to be an immediate success- directly hearing from practitioners in the field and working through problems based on real transactions, that’s the only possible way learning in theory can transition into practice. I distinctly recall accessing some of EABL’s documents when I was working on a Banking problem in AMSS, to understand what related laws I should be looking into. The reading material was really impressive- it was concise and organized, yet comprehensive. It was incredibly helpful and I’d highly recommend it to anyone who’s looking to make a mark in the corporate law sector.

Which firms did you apply to? What is the selection process in Linklaters and what does the firm expect from an Indian law student?

I sat my interviews for Linklaters and Allen and Overy in the penultimate year of law school and eventually chose to go to Linklaters. That’s where I’ll be headed in September to start as a Trainee Solicitor. The key to securing a place in these firms is to think on your feet. The application process is much like your LL.M applications, but the interviews really test how fast and how creatively you think. Be prepared to answer HR questions that aimto test your skill set, which you will be asked to exemplify using various examples from your life. More important though is the technical interview, which would entail a basic working knowledge of how an M&A transaction works and what purpose a Due Diligence Report serves. Linklaters has a series of logical reasoning tests that you have to go through, the kind that CLAT tests you on. And a simulated exercise where you have to answer a set of emails within a stipulated time that gauges how you would, as a Trainee, respond to different and difficult situations in the firm. A&O has a similar exercise that requires you to peruse a DD Report in a particular time frame and answer questions about the transaction. The questions are definitely more logic than knowledge based but it does assume a basic understanding of corporate law. You also need to have some basic knowledge about the firm itself, its offices and some of the transactions that are currently ongoing.

Please tell us a bit about your vacation scheme experience.

In my personal experience, these Vacation Schemes were significantly different from Indian Internships. They genuinely care about giving you the best possible training and the entire internship is very structured and organized to the last possible detail. It is as much about you choosing them as they choosing you and they make every effort to impress you. You sit with the supervisor assigned to overlook your work throughout, so help is available at any and every point in time. Senior trainees and associates are more than willing to make time for you if you approach them for help, even if they have their hands full with their own work. Trainees do a lot of the paperwork once the decisions have been made, editing and sometimes even drafting the supplemental agreements, especially in the smaller groups. We attend conference calls and client meetings as well. There is plenty of opportunity to relax and catch up with colleagues during team activities, retreats and over evening drinks. You might have to put in some long hours on some days, but I think it’s worth the effort.

After that, you went on to pursue LL.M. from Harvard Law School. What were the other universities of choice?

Honestly, I was unsure whether I should continue to study further since I already had an offer from Linklaters. I decided that I would opt for an LL.M only if it was one of the best in the world and so I applied only to Oxbridge and Harvard, given their unparalleled reputation. Yale and Columbia would probably have been my other choices, if I had to choose more.

Did you consider taking up a job in the USA itself? What were the opportunities available to you?

I wanted to keep my options open, but most legal positions in the US require you to take the Bar Exam. There are certain basic courses that are pre-requisites to take the Bar but these cut significantly into the credits available for the academic year and prevented me from diversifying into courses that I was really interested in. Eventually, I decided that I didn’t want to forego the rare opportunity that Harvard afforded me – to study thought-provoking courses with stellar professors who in many cases are the world’s foremost experts on the topic. I was fairly secure since I had a job lined up already and in any case I preferred London’s more refined lifestyle to the American way of life. It was a hard decision I made at the time, but I think all in all a good one.

What was the admission process for securing a seat at Harvard Law School?

The admissions process for the Harvard LL.M proceeds in several stages. Applications are usually due sometime in November-December. Once the completed application is submitted, applicant’s recommenders receive emails requesting them to upload their recommendations to a secure web portal. Applicants will not be at liberty to view the recommendations but it is upto them to ensure that the recommendations are uploaded directly by the recommender withinthe specified deadline. Like most US institutions, you can use the LSAC services to send the required documents to Harvard. The LSAC is basically an integrated service that several top US institutions subscribe to. For a small fee, you can avoid having to mail/courier documents separately to each institution. The documents can (in some cases, have to) be sent to LSAC, where they will be vetted and sent out to the institutions of your choice.

What do the selectors expect from an application of a law student at Harvard?

The application itself is fairly straight-forward, divided into easily understandable sections that require the applicant to furnish personal details and highlight their personal achievements and work experiences. Needless to say, it demands a high level of competency and is a holistic review of your achievements right from high school tolaw school and any work experience gained subsequently. Ensure that you do a thorough job on the application andtake time to think through every major activity/achievement of your formative years. One thing worth mentioning in the application is the part that requires you to list the subjects you are potentially interested in studying at Harvard. Remember that it is no marker of what you might eventually end up studying once accepted into the program. My advice would be to think strategically and build an application based on an area that you have already worked and excelled in that would support your credibility when you evince an interest in pursuing an LLM.So an ‘area of expertise’, if you will, rather than an area of interest. For instance, I was interested in both Corporate Law and Gender Studies but had no significant experience in the latter. I think (though I might be mistaken) that chances at success would have been considerably lesser if I had indicated an interest in Gender Studies while my entire application screamed corporate law. Eventually, despite having had no previous exposure in that area, once I was accepted I chose to pursue Gender Studies. They want to see a carefully crafted application. And most importantly, they want to see what drives your decision to do an LLMso its imperative that you give them a compelling reason for wanting to do the LLM in the first place.Focus every aspect of the application on one area- it is also an indicator of how focused and organized you are as a person.

Perhaps the most important part of the application is the essay that has to be written on a contemporary matter of the applicant’s choice. I would say that this should preferably be something related to what has been indicated as your area of interest. It should be creative, concise, cohesive, relevant and structurally sound. It might be this alone that sets you apart from the other applicants to Harvard, all of whom are assuredly high-achievers.

How far do you think Harvard grants financial aid to foreign students? What is the procedure for obtaining such an aid?

Should the applicant wish to apply for financial aid, there is a separate application that has to be filled and this would require the applicant to submit not just their financial status but also their parents’ financial details. Harvard is very generous with their financial aid, which can be in the form of a loan (not interest-free), a grant or a combination of both. Their aid is need-based, not merit-based like scholarships in general.

What opportunities does Harvard provide to foreign students?

The variety in the courses on offer at Harvard is unimaginable- there are over 400 courses to choose from- which are as broad as ‘International Law’ to niche topics like ‘Law and Neuroscience’. There are fascinating courses associated with literature and the arts, which can be extremely fun to explore, such as ‘Justice in Shakespeare’s Plays’ or ‘Music and Digital Laws’. There are theory-based courses for the thinkers and practical skill-based ones for the shooters. In addition to this, the LL.M allows you to cross-register with prestigious institutions like MIT or Fletcher as well as the other Harvard schools as a substitute for law school credits, a remarkable opportunity to reach out to non-law friends. LL.Ms generally opt for courses with a more international scope, but many of them looking to work in the US do prefer US-centric courses, both options are well catered to at Harvard. We sit our classes with the JD students; there are no courses that are exclusive to LL.Ms alone. Once again, this provides us with the chance to interact with a wider circle, and learn from the best of our contemporaries. Hands on experience can be gained through a variety of co-curricular and extra-curricular activities, including societies, lunch talks, guest lectures, demonstrations, clubs and most importantly clinics, where legal practitioners in both private and public services recruit students to engage in real ongoing deals. The most common refrain I’ve heard from every LL.M is that the nine-month course is bursting with activities that are far in excess of what its possible to do in that short period so make no mistake, it’s going to be a chaotic year.

It’s not all studies either. There’s plenty of opportunity for day trips during weekends, and longer ones during the spring break. Sports, mooting, music and every other activity you can think of happens everyday. Harvard also sponsors activities like a wine-tasting club. So trust me when I say that anyone and everyone, no matter what your interests or inclinations, will find what they love at Harvard, academics or otherwise. It might seem overwhelming at times, but at any given point there are at least six people, including previous LL.Ms and current SJDs who have been officially assigned who you can approach for advice in any matter, not to mention plenty of other people who are always eager to help. Talk to people, make friends. Use the year well and “you will never again find a place in the world where you would have to seek out a hotel” – that was the first thing we were told during the orientation.

Please tell us about how the classes are conducted in Harvard, what method of teaching is followed by teachers and what other things that makes Harvard distinct from other law schools?

Classes can be in the form of courses (group of 80-100 students), seminars (group of 20 or so) or reading groups (groups of 12). The smaller classes understandably tend to be more intensive in terms of readings and discussions and they run into more depth in terms of subject matter. The bigger classes generally test you on exams, which can be both in-class and take-home, whereas the smaller ones expect everyday participation and daily/weekly reports and papers. You are also required to write an original 25/50 page LL.M dissertation to complete the course.

It goes without saying that the professors and teaching methods are top-notch. Readings are more theory and case law based, and there’s very less statutory law relied upon. Most professors follow the Socratic method of teaching, something you rarely encounter in Indian law schools. Very few professors opt for lecture style teaching, most only lead ‘discussions’ in class. This means having to read what could possibly be hundreds of pages before every class and being prepared to answer questions on it if called upon. In my experience this tends to generate a more productive discussion, not only because students are more involved but also because I found their views are sometimes more refreshing and insightful than the professors. You would not expect JDs who have no law background to be so sharp, but their observations are fascinating- just to see the way they have been taught to think was incredible. If there is something I most admired about Harvard, it’s the liberty and free-thinking that it allows and encourages, something you tend not to find often in Indian law schools.

How does an LL.M degree help you after you graduate from Harvard?

To be honest, the LL.M does not do much for your CV if you are looking primarily for a job in India, particularly in the corporate sector. Most people who pursue a Harvard LL.M are already experienced and accomplished and are looking to take a break from work or attempting to break into the US legal sector/international organizations. That said, Harvard is worth it even if purely for the experience and you learn a lot more in terms of life skills than academically. For me, Harvard was an intellectual pursuit, and suffice it to say that I couldn’t be more grateful that I made the decision to apply for it; my fellow classmates were undoubtedly the brightest minds in the world and every conversation, whether within or outside the classroom adds something of valueto your knowledge.

There’s no doubt about the fact that Harvard opens up a world of opportunities. Most people subscribe to the NY Job Fair where top-tier law firms from all over the world interview candidates for various positions, similar to placement day in Indian law schools, only on a larger scale. I know a friend who sat 12 interviews in one day (still don’t know how he managed to do that). I’m limited in my knowledge of placements because I didn’t sit for one at Harvard. But I can assure youthat from the very beginning of the admissions process the Consultations Office at Harvard takes proactive measures to ensure Harvard students are aware of every opportunity available to them. If there is one thing you can be sure of, it is that no stone will be left unturned in trying to find you a suitable job. There are two offices that help students seek out jobs and they send frequent updates on openings in both private and public positions. Studentsgot placed at the World Bank, the UN, and every other premier institution onecan dream of.

What made you opt for Gender Studies at Harvard? What all did you learn out of the course?

My primary focus was on Gender Studies, with related courses in Constitutional Law to supplement it. I can’t say there was any particular incident that drove my decision, but law school in general had piqued my interest in this area. We generally study for 23-27 credits in the entire term. I took courses on Feminist Legal Theory, Sex Equality, Family Law, Comparative Constitutional law and the Fourteenth Amendment amongst others, all with a gender specific focus. Perhaps my best experience was with Sex Equality where I had the privilege of being taught by Prof. Catherine MacKinnon, a legend in the feminist movement who is considered world over as the pioneering figure in radical feminism. However, as far as my intellectual pursuit went, I think I was most passionate about Feminist Legal Theory, taught by Prof. Janet Halley who also supervised my LL.M thesis on the Hindu Joint Family. The course was wildly liberating, her brand of feminism is starkly different from usual accounts and I found myself questioning a lot of the previous assumptions I had about it. Having never had any formal education in feminist literature previously, I was amazed at how much there was to it.

Apart from the usual courses for credits, we also have the opportunity to sit in on classes just as an observer and that’s a real advantage. With the prior permission of the instructor, we can learn from the entire gamut of famous Harvard professors. Not to mention the multiple guest lectures that happen on an everyday basis, with famous personalities like Mitt Romney, Justices Elena Kagan and Scalia, and Justice Albie Sachs in attendance amongst others. To hear them speak and learn from them first hand was an unforgettable experience.

Do you intend to do pursue higher studies at any point of time?

At some point I also intend to study further, and do a PhD. Harvard offers you the opportunity to do an SJD which is the equivalent of a PhD but it is a five-year course as against the usual 3 years in the UK. It is however, extremely selective and niche since the candidates are chosen largely from the previous LL.M batches. I was keen to continue with the same and my supervisor was equally eager but eventually, I thought the time commitment seemed too much. Having never had any significant work experience before I thought it’s high time I gain some exposure now. I will probably apply to Oxford or Cambridge for a PhD soon.

Would you like to leave some message for our readers?

Try to do the best at whatever you do. Most people suggest that you should find and follow your passion, but throughout my life I’ve learnt to be passionate about anything I do; whether it is something I really wanted to do has been a secondary concern. Accept that you will not always get what you want, so its important to not be disillusioned by this; rather, take every opportunity you getand work at it with the same zeal you would have for your dream. I’ve always lived by this principle and I think I’ve been the happier for it.
August 28, 2015
Prof. Bhavani Prasad Panda, Vice Chancellor, Maharashtra National Law University, on setting up MNLU, research in disaster management & a career in academics
Prof. Bhavani Prasad Panda is the Vice-Chancellor of Maharashtra National Law University, Mumbai. He graduated in LL.B from Lingaraj Law College, Berhampur, Orissa in 1979. Thereafter he went on to pursue higher studies in different disciplines of law.

Prior to his present designation Prof. BP Panda has held 16 other educational seats in various law institutes of India. He found his place as the Principal of NBM Law College, Professor of WBNUJS, Principal of Lingaraj Law College, Dean, Faculty of Legal Studies (BU), Chairman, Board of Studies Law, BU among others. He has numerous publications and has been an active member of different academic, executive and financial councils of various institutions till date.

In this interview we talk about –
- Studying Physics in his graduating years at SKCG College, Odisha.
- His journey through Behrampur University, Odisha – as a student and later as an academician
- Being the Vice-Chancellor of MNLU
- Case study of “Super-Cyclone”: a major research conducted in the aftermath of the 1999 disastrous cyclone in Odisha.
- Journey from Assistant Professor to Professor at WBNUJS
- Advise to the future legal academicians of India
Tell us about your educational background before college as well your graduation years at SKCG College, Odisha.

My early childhood education was conducted at the Government school of Paralakhemundi, Gajapati District, Odisha. Later on up to intermediate studies got educated at Visakha Tutorial College and at the very reputed Mrs. AVN College of Visakhapatnam in Andhra Pradesh.

I studied graduation with physics honours from S K CG College, Paralakhemundi, Gajapati District, Odisha. and remained active in college politics during the emergency period of 1975-76. Failed to get good score at B.Sc (Hons.) consequently, also failed to get a seat in M.Sc Physics at the local University. And due to financial difficulties could not go to other universities to pursue Physics. Under ‘no way out’ situation joined LL.B. at Lingaraj Law College, Berhampur University with a lot of hesitation, reluctance and guilt. Nobody at the house appreciated my joining Law College. My family members expected that I should study science and get into a good job.

How did your interest gravitate towards law?

Adding to my ill mood for joining law, the law college was located in a shabby, dilapidated building in a hospital premises, reflecting a nauseate feeling of the surrounding. The college used to function from 7:00AM to 12 Noon with hardly 2 (two) professors on its roll. The whole environment at Law College was far from academics and my previous experience of educational institutions with best of institutional structure. However, in the damp atmosphere after resigning to my fate started attending classes, soon I got involved with legal education and also once again became active in college politics for obtaining better amenities, facilities, environment and making issue for increasing number of teachers to the college.

You completed your LL.B from Behrampur University, Odisha. Tell us about your law school journey.

Formerly, being a student of Physics there were many advantages like groomed to be analytical, logical, practical and disciplined. These learning habits when invested on legal education there were encouraging returns. The books of law, literature, political theory inspired me very much for getting seriously involved in legal education. Reading books of literature, and political science at the law college library was a rare opportunity for a physics student. Soon I realised that there is enough world beyond physics and science, and learning law and studying political science is more nearer to understand life, society and the state craft. Within few months at the Law College, it appeared that the Law College Library is a luxurious space that propelled the appetite for knowledge. Thrilled by the first lessons of law, jurisprudence, political theory started reading biographic of legal luminaries and political scientists. Pleasure of reading books doubled with reading of conceptual basis of the state, citizen and the law. This was a sort of self relishing, and purely a voluntary involvement. Developed unconsciously a habit that after reading a book, to search for someone and narrate what has been read, before reading another book. Soon created a circle where the political issues, jurisprudence were debated passionately. So also reported judgments were argued as if things happened there and the impacts can be many.

The legal education appeared to be the real subject and precisely for which I was meant. I felt tremendously satisfied that I was studying law. Often entered into debate that legal education and legal profession is meant far more responsible persons with flair in social work, statesmanship; and it is holistic scholarship with heritage of literature, politics, sociology, economics, history and skills of advocacy. But unfortunately in India pupil join to law when they find rejected elsewhere. Sometimes I was successful in convincing people with my arguments and sometimes I used to return to study more to logically establish my point.

To supplement the economic needs, part time tuition to school children up to +2 level were taken up and learned to be independent without bothering parents about finance, as many of the students in Odisha do.

We know you have been a consistent top scorer in all subjects. Tell us a bit about it.

At the end of the first year of Law, it came as surprise for scoring highest mark in four subjects out of six and got nominated as the best student of the law college. Teachers became friends and got opportunity to spend more time among teachers’ company. During the second year of LL.B, I started taking interest in teaching the first year students as and when the concerned teacher of the class remained absent. I always waited for the opportunity to teach in the classroom at junior class, and was accepted by friends for the purpose and started training colleagues for moot-court, other academic competitions as well as assisted friends for competitive examinations.

The inputs of labour to legal studies were hardly anything compared to studying physics at graduation level. From the remote distant of Berhampur, Odisha, the law college made it’s presence feel by bagging prizes in national moot-court competitions. At the end of 3 year LL.B studies, bagged all the gold medals meant for LL.B.

As a student of LL.B, with a mission to change the stigma to the prevalent legal education that is mired with mass-copy, last-option course, and things like that, I participated actively in college politics and got elected as President of the Students Union and achieved reformation in the examination system made it free from much tainted malpractice at Berhampur University. The State Government and the University Authorities were compelled to construct a new building with holistic infrastructure facilities for the Law College. The foundation stone was laid and accordingly a new building of the Law College was built, as a constituent College of Berhampur University, Odisha.

After the successful completion of your LLB degree, you obtained numerous other courses as well. Can you tell our readers about your timeline after Behrampur University?

I joined M.L at Andhra University College of Law in the year 1980, and after completion of the academic period of study, found it difficult to cope up with economic needs. Joined as a Commercial Executive in New Delhi, with M/s. Desein – Indure Group of Companies and got exposed to the industrial and commercial world in the country (1982-87).

During my period in Delhi, I obtained ‘Diploma on Corporate Laws and Secretarial Practices’, conducted by Indian Law Institute, New Delhi; (1982-83) and also studied M.A. in Politics at Andhra University by private appearance (1983-85). However, there prevailed an inner calling to get back to legal education/profession.

In the year 1987, with little struggle, I obtained the LL.M degree from Andhra University and decided to join litigations at Visakhapatnam, giving up the alluring job at Delhi, enrolled as an I advocate to practice at Visakhapatnam. More than the practice at the Court, the local Private Law College teaching assignments provided me satisfaction and I soon joined as the Principal of the NBM Law College.

While you were the Principal of NBM Law College, you had the opportunity of meeting Prof. Madhav Menon. Can you share your experience with our readers?

During those struggling (1988-94) years of making a quality Law College, I got the opportunity to meet Prof. N R Madhava Menon who practically provided a new orientation to the mission of life and the concern for legal education. In the refreshers course at NLSIU Bangalore, Prof. Menon gave all the participants a forum and provided an opportunity to interact with the legal luminaries of the country like Prof. Upendra Bakshi, Prof. N L Mitra, Prof. Ranbir Singh, Prof. B B Pande, Prof M P Singh, Prof. Chandrsekahran Pillai, Justice Krishna Iyer, Justice Hidayatullah, Justice Venkatachaliah, Advocate Ram Jethmalani, Advocate K K Venugopal, Advocate F S Nariman, Advocate Ranjit Mohanty and many others.

Professor Menon was perhaps least knowing that he was creating so many future Vice Chancellors like Balraj Chauhan, Gurjit Singh, B L Sharma, S K D Rao, B Nagraj, N K Chakraborty, V Hemalata, L Jaisree, Faizan Mustafa, including me.

We were all so fortunate to follow Prof. Menon both by letter and spirit. All of us value the learning at NLSIU, Bangalore which was of great help.

Later you enrolled for Ph.D working for “Adolescent Offenders” in 1990. Tell us about your experience.

I accomplished my Ph.D work in the year 1994. It was a total involvement for conducting research about adolescent offenders undergoing sentence at Visakhapatnam Borstal schools. I still feel the Borstal school system of reformation of adolescents up to the age of 23 is more mature and better system of institutionalisation and reformation compared with much acclaimed juvenile justice system. The country has not given free and fair opportunity to Borstal School System and is being neglected to perish under the eclipse of JJ Act.

Amongst your accomplishments in the legal journey, academia has been in the forefront. What were the platforms which contributed to this journey?

My best years of teaching and academic administration were at NBM Law College, Visakahapatnam, it provided a platform for me to experiment everything what I felt best with legal education including classroom teaching/ lectures. I found some of my school time teachers and schoolmates joined in the evening college, and were all committed to attend my classes. It gave me pride and satisfaction. The college made a record progress and best students of the area joined to enhance the credibility of the law college.

In 1994 joined as a Senior Lecture in Law at a premier University – Utkal University of Odisha. The M.S. Law College being the first Law College in Odisha manufactured about 90% of Advocates at the Odisha High Court, 80% of the Judges at the High Court and the subordinate Judiciary and also provided law degrees to 70% Legislators in the State of Odisha. But the College remained far behind to contribute any quality legal education. During the days of service struggled hard to change the environment for Faculty Members coaxing them to enrich with greater exposure and wider participations in Law Seminars and Conferences. Also struggled to initiate the All India Bar Council Moot Court Competition, at Cuttack which somehow could conclude in 1996, this to register the college name in the national list.

In 1996, joined as a Reader in Law at Post-graduate Department of Law, Berhampur University and actively participated in academic activities to modernise the prevalent out-dated courses and syllabus being taught and got occupied with the University System of Administration.

In the year 2000 joined NUJS Calcutta, as a Founding Teacher along with Professor N R Mahdava Menon to establish the National Law University. It was a great experience to work with Prof. Menon in the founding days of NUJS Calcutta. In 2002 after availing the lien period joined back to Berhampur University and this time worked hard to contribute to the development of the Lingaraj Law College. It was an amount of satisfaction to join as the Principal of the Law College, where I was a student, but there the struggle for quality development was much more. There was a little cooperation from any side. As a student leader achieved more success than as a principal of the law college. Dissatisfied returned back to the Post –Graduate Department of Law, Berhampur University.

Quickly finding little leisure time, I got engaged in conducting post-doctorial research studies and completed the work in 2006 obtaining LL.D degree from Berhampur University.

In the year 2008, after a renewed association with Prof. M P Singh, joined NUJS Calcutta, for a second stint after obtaining two years lien from Berhampur University, and actively participated in University activities both academic and administration.

In 2010 returned back to Berhampur University. Found it hard to contribute to the newer challenges to legal education and corresponding deterioration in educational standards vis-à-vis growing challenges participated actively in University general administration until 2014.

I took voluntary retirement to assume charge as Vice-Chancellor of MNLU Mumbai on 10.10.2014.

How did you strategize your work on legal research?

During the time I enrolled for PhD there were very few research guides available to provide the direction and supervise research work to its logical end.

Research in law for an academician is a must; we learned the first lessons about research at Professor Menon’s Workshop. Little learnt and much unlearnt but with a great zeal to contribute to society with legal knowledge enrolled for PhD.

Legal Research by itself a separate discipline and methodology was not fully grown. Every research teacher explained the conduct of research and thesis writing in quite differently, mostly bookish or very confused. The practical implementation of the learning from most of the teachers was very difficult or impossible.

I spent quite some time in contemplating how to start legal research. I read many books of sociological methods of research as I was planning to do research in criminal law, and I was not getting a clue how to go about – choosing topic, defining the research problem, setting goal and designing the research. I started diving straight into prison studies and later focused on adolescent offenders at Borstal School of Visakhapatnam. Read more and more existing literature on young adult offenders from books of criminology and law. It happened on its own motion that I could identify the research problem and formulated hypothesis and realised the roadmap of the research terrain. Essentially, research is an individual personal scholarship and involvement and there can never be any fixed straight jacket method and finite prescription from any supervisor. I realised why the teachers were so different and incoherent. It has to evolve creatively on one’s own involvement and provide strength of logic and reasoning to defend the thesis that is being advanced.

I was happy to contribute a unique work on adolescent offender in legal research. My involvement was little bit more than mere legal research work for PhD and emotional involvement with the staff, administration and inmates of Borstal School at Visakhapatnam. I continued to argue for eulogising the working of custodial system where any youth in conflict with law however heinous the crime may be put to reformation model maximum up to the age of 23years and was then allowed to assimilate in the mainstream of the society. The current controversy of 16-18years age group of juvenile stands fully addressed in the system, but unfortunately in India we never explore all the sentencing options before passing an order. Most of the legal fraternity do not know what the Borstal School System is about. The institution is under eclipse of Juvenile Justice System clout. I still hold that the young adults need be reformed in a specially designed institution like that of Borstal School System under Correctional Administration. The prison system cannot be condemned as ‘jail for penal action for hardcore convicts alone’. We need to change our prison into Correctional Houses.

Please tell our readers about the case study behind the ‘the Super Cyclone’ of 1999 in Odisha. Also tell us about your interest in ‘Disaster management studies’.

I was disturbed, and developed interest in observing the recovery phase and the human rights aspect of relief operation. The tragedy after super cyclone is more horrible. Crime rate increased. Hunger coupled with poverty loomed large. Funds were mismanaged. There were politics of funding and certification of ‘State v. Natural disaster’. There has been politics of centre and state in relief funding etc.

In 2000, soon after the Bhuj Earth Quake, Professor Madhava Menon assigned me with the work to make a case study of ‘Super Cyclone’, provided financial support for the project. Over next two years along with the work at NUJS Kolkata and Berhampur University devoted all extra hours to study on Super Cyclone and its various facets of devastation and legal support mechanism; conducted seminars and workshops and finally submitted a comprehensive report on ‘Case Study of Super Cyclone’ to NUJS Kolkata. In 2005, the Disaster Management Act was enacted, where the students and faculty of NUJS have contributed with the inputs of experience from Odisha Super Cyclone and Bhuj Earth Quake.

In 2005-06, at Berhampur University designed and offered one year Post-Graduate Diploma programme in Disaster Management, and I was surprised to see some of the students got appointed as safety officers in certain establishments.

‘Disaster Management Studies’ became my new found hobby. In October 2013, Odisha was struck with another very severe cyclonic storm called as ‘Phailin’. I was eager to serve the state in terms of offering schemes for ‘impact reduction’. And closely followed the state action for pre-emptive measures, Odisha was more matured after Super Cyclone 1999 left no space for disaster to tell upon human life. The preparations were well addressed and the meteorological department predictions were properly used. The disaster was contained to loss of property and loss of human life was only 34 almost negligible compared the size of the disaster spell.

Later you got associated with Odisha Fire Services Department to write a report on their “Response System”. Tell us about the new route of your life.

Taking time off from the University, with total commitment I conducted the report and the same was published by the OFS Department as a book. Odisha state government accelerated the process of establishing the Fire Station Offices at every block in whole of Odisha covering all the 335 blocks. The Fire Service Department of Odisha got equipped with all types of disaster rescue and management services; and with their experience they rendered a great service to the State of Andhra Pradesh when it was struck by the cyclonic storm called ‘Hudhud’ and got applauds from the State. Odisha Fire Service Department is one of the robust systems today to encounter disaster, it stays ever prepared. A department not being taken seriously by the states for services and/or for their contribution stands tall in Odisha. My recommendations in the report were to a certain extent useful for the government to strengthen OFS to its current status.

What were your personal takeaways from this experience?

I believe disasters provide a very good opportunity for everyone to contribute something to the fellow being. It is a signal to part something. It provides lot many lessons for ‘living and sharing together’. It strikes all the selfish aggrandisement and calls for community participation. It implants a renewed zeal and hope for newer and intelligent tomorrow, with life full of sacrifices. Natural Disasters are good and a challenge to humanity. One need be humane and human with fellow being, that is the way of life. I can speak on disasters for hours together how it can change life for good.

What is your perception on legal academia as a career? How would you guide the future teachers of India?

India needs good, committed, honest, hardworking teachers. Teaching is a passion. Teaching provides unlearning along with the students. Teachers need to be humble and skilful. Teacher is made with lot of sacrifices, the compensation is limited to ‘a good rejoicing class’. For a teacher, the best accomplishment the students should grow beyond the teacher and realise their dreams as a good human and responsible citizen of the country. In life everything deserved comes on its own for the person who works for others. And many more values of being a teacher, I have seen in my teachers, I respected them and loved to live like them. I still struggle in my pursuit to live like my teachers. These values chained me into teaching, and I am happy.

Teaching can be a wonderful career pursuit for it provides the satisfaction of living a life full of giving. Law teaching has to happen in a very refined and bigger way where the legal scholarship will flourish for justice education. Enough is still to happen, where men will learn to have a successful and contented life and pursuit of legal profession. We should be able to logically explain where one is at wrong side and what is due and appropriate. We should learn to respect the adversary. Advocacy has much to offer. Dispute resolution and peace are interconnected, and language of law should have that magic wand. It comes out of the human quality and character of the arbitrator.

For me a good class with full of students intimately and continuously involved in learning process is the fountain of pleasure. No wonder I am struggling to be a teacher like my teachers.

You have authored a number of research articles and books. Is there any inspiration which incites to pursue this?

Writing articles do not happen all the time. Nor writing a book is possible for writing book sake. There has to be a creative streak. One simple idea which allures one can be the matter of writing an article. The appetite should come from within, and the research follows, reading a lot of literature is necessary to understand what is it that one is so fond of and/or that keeps absorbed or disturbs the peace. It takes lot of time to reach to the material of choice, and in the pursuit the idea gets involved with other wonderful writings and scholarship; one need be dispassionate and remain focused from the beauty of other scholarly articles. Once the ideas get concretised and literature seems to be exhaust and one is updated with existing literature, one can venture to enter into substantiating the points of view and when someone is able to provide the logic and reason to establish the postulate, has accomplished a research article. This need be reviewed, and verified with fellow colleagues. Language of presentation should be simple to the core because the author stays miles away from his very important readers.

Ideally speaking, research articles should happen as often as possible. It provides a window to the world to look at the author and his view point while contributing to knowledge system.

I could write only very few articles with zeal and self involvement, while bulk were attended with a compulsion for contribution and participation at seminars and conferences; and / or contributing to the request of a fellow teacher. I always enjoyed writing in group, sharing views.

How important is it to attend seminars, conferences and workshops conducted by various legal luminaries while in law school?

Seminars, Conferences and Workshops at National Law Universities are really good ones and whereas at many of the state universities and law colleges it appeared ritual and a function of get together. The culture of a good seminar linked with scholarly exchange formally and informally during the time of seminar should emerge. Only serious minded people who have done their homework and are prepared to contribute with ideas can meaningfully participate. One should meaningfully gain from such participation and quantify in a scale of learning. Seminars should be a continuous affair with in the education system. There need be daily seminars and exchange of ideas. More informal seminars need to happen from voluntary groups of students on various issues of the nation, judgments delivered by the courts and newspaper reports. And the views can be published periodically appropriately.

At NUJS, once I did not feel attracted to a topic of seminar and chose to remain in library during the time. Professor Menon called me to his office and asked the reason for not being present in the seminar. And said “senior teachers have no choice to opt out of university seminars however disinteresting the topic may be’, there is a need to come out from the ‘disinterest’ in the realm of knowledge”. “Seminars are open forum for learning and more unlearning”, is the lesson that I learnt.

How was your teaching experience at WBNUJS?

Professor Menon exposed me to cooperative teaching. One of the first experiences to teaching and learning debut at NUJS was to co-teach with Professor Menon. We were addressing class on ‘legal method’, the subject provides the first glimpse of law to students. I made my preparations but in the class room the discussion went in a different paradigm to my preparation and I had little to participate in the partnership. I chose to vehemently oppose the postulates of law and found well attended by Professor Menon. The class went on very successfully. It is the kindness of Professor Menon, he praised me before everybody in the class. Later, he told me the techniques of cooperative teaching. I enjoyed cooperative teaching. Two–three teachers together can take up teaching together, and stage a script of substantial delivery of teaching and learning.

Case method of teaching is another exercise, which divides the class into groups for considered debate and yet another groups to sum up, while the teacher provides the conceptual finish as conclusion.

At NUJS we were encouraged all innovative models of teaching and learning process including on-field exercises at court hall, police station and other workstations. We never had any one method, depending on the topic requirement we adapted to different methods, mainly to drive out any monotony among the students. We used visualise and invent surprises for the students in our teaching exercises. We are happy we had great opportunity.

Do you think MNLU is having an edge over the other NLUs of the nation? What are the advantages which an NLU seated in Mumbai receives?

First the location advantage, that we are in TISS campus. The whole of campus, library, wi-fi system, the dining hall, the wisdom of the TISS faculty are at our hands reach. It is a unique privilege which no NLU student in India must have got in the very founding year. Thanks to TISS and the Hon’ble Chancellor Mr. Justice FM Ibrahim Kalifulla who have been instrumental in the understanding.

Secondly, Mumbai provides a unique opportunity with rich resource of very learned lawyers and retired judges who are always ready to assist the law students in their academics. Most of the advocates and other members of legal fraternity are associated with the local law colleges contributing their bit as part-time professors. MNLU Mumbai will be certainly tapping the best of the resources for its students too. There are the best of law firms in Mumbai and the students will be skilful enough to find a good exposure and can participate with them in their vacations. So also the whole field of legal practice and experimentation is open for the students in the corporate climate to look litigation from different perspective including alternative dispute resolution and arbitration experts. The students after five years from MNLU Mumbai will have mine of opportunity in Mumbai alone. For availing the interaction from the lawyers and judges, we are open on Sunday, it shall be our working day, and our weekly holiday will be Wednesday. This arrangement will provide students an opportunity to visit offices on Wednesday to collect material and right their project assignments.

Thirdly, the education at MNLU Mumbai will have to be geared up to make study a pleasant experience and at the same time competitive to take the challenges of life as a matter of fact. We are fortunate, that we have seasoned faculty from social sciences available at the immediate vicinity from TISS. We also have the support of professional counsellors from TISS, to guide and ease any blues. Apart from the teachers with in the campus, the students will have exposure to the best teachers from other institutions in India. MNLU Mumbai will have to make such arrangement until we develop our own cadre of best teachers. MNLU Mumbai will adopt various methods of teaching and imparting education as are essential and appropriate to a particular course, all option and autonomy will be given to teachers to make best of class work.

Fourthly, the first batch of the students will get ample opportunity to vent their skills and ideas and contribute to the student forums with facets of self-governance, student-bar council, moot-court bar association, student discipline committee, anti-ragging committee, welfare bodies, cultural club, athletic club, placement cell, and establish a system of student self-administration. Also associated along with the co-curricular activities they will have to design legal aid cell, arbitration house, disaster management cell, drafting committee and things like that.

MNLU, Mumbai – Jogeshwari Campus

Fifthly, MNLU Mumbai is not in competition with any institution, but it shall create for itself a distinct place in terms of its education skills, student discipline, teaching and learning process. The idea is MNLU Mumbai shall be a forum to provide space and opportunity for every member to enjoy their field of persuasion with a sense of satisfaction and reap rich dividends in legal scholarship. More than competitive achievements, the students will learn to enjoy their contribution to the society and nation, by steadily growing to reach to their set goals. Students will be the maker of the University for tomorrow. The administration shall facilitate the best practices to happen. The students will realise at the end of five years, the time at MNLU has given everything that they cherished in terms of legal scholarship, and they shall have to feel proud to remain connected to lead the institution to greater heights.

What would you like to share with students who are not from an NLU?

I feel sad when I look to the bulk of the law colleges, where students just manage to get degree foolishly without any substance and degrade the law degree. Lot many of them enrol as advocates without knowing what they are going to do. Some even manage to become judges of the lower courts and struggle hard to meet the demands of justice. The society suffers a lot out of their ignorance. A lot of measures need be taken to overhaul the traditional law colleges. Bar Council of India is struggling to change the system.

The above position being disastrous, a fine opportunity also awaits for a serious minded law student to bake his cake. If the studies are taken seriously in those law colleges with scanty of facilities, and goals are fixed to excel in that little sphere, there can still be space for continuing with that spree of perfecting on and on in life. The opportunity is that a sincere student can achieve easily the best among the deprived atmosphere. There is no short cut to success, but one should learn to enjoy harder task. Life should be full of pleasantness, which emanates from knowledge alone. In the world, there is enough for everyone to pick and remain content as long one realises one’s own ability to carry.
August 23, 2015
Trisha Mitra, Legal Trainee, Shearman & Sterling, on Masters in International Dispute Settlement from GIDS, Geneva and a career in Int’l Arbitration
Trisha Mitra graduated as a lawyer in 2012 from the Symbiosis Law School, Pune. During her years of law school she participated in various events. She was awarded the Advocate S.K. Jain Scholarship for being the topper of B.A.,LL.B. from her batch.

Prior to pursuing her Masters in International Dispute Settlement from Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies, she served as an associate at the ADR teams of Bharucha and Partners and Wadia Ghandy & Co.

Soon after the completion of her masters she had the opportunity to work with Prof. Pierre Tercier and later joined Shearman and Sterling as a legal trainee in their International Arbitration team.

In this interview we talk about –
- Her years through law school and her growing interest in Arbitration.
- Significance of Post Qualification Experience (PQE) before pursuing Masters.
- Receiving Hans Wilsdorf Scholarship offered by the Swiss-based Hans Wilsdorf Foundation.
- Studying Masters in International Dispute Settlement from Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies.
- Working as a trainee in the International Arbitration group at Shearman & Sterling LLP
- Working as Legal Assistant to Prof. Pierre Tercier
What inclined you towards the field of legal education?

Looking back, I believe my involvement in extra-curricular activities during school paved the way for choosing law as a career. I have always been an avid reader and that inspired my passion for writing and oration. In school, I actively participated in essay competitions, poetry competitions, debates, Model United Nations, extempores and just about any event that involved speaking and writing.

When it came to a stage where I had to decide what degree I would pursue after school, my instinct was to choose a profession which has its core both these passions of mine, law. I do not have any lawyers in my family or close relations. However, I was extremely fortunate to have supportive parents who encouraged me to make this choice, despite the popular belief that law is not a profession meant for girls.

How instrumental was Symbiosis Law School in shaping your legal career. Did you have interest in arbitration and dispute resolution while at law school?

My time at Symbiosis Law School set the foundation for my legal career. I have always maintained that I was lucky to be in a law school that gave me the freedom to learn, develop skills and explore opportunities, both within and outside the classroom. I firmly belief that learning cannot be restricted to lessons in classrooms and my time at Symbiosis is reflective of that. At Symbiosis, I actively took part in both national and international Moot Court competitions, numerous Model United Nations, intra-law college sports tournaments, essay competitions and parliamentary debates. Further, my internships and interactions with practitioners and academics helped me gain an essential practical understanding of the law. Being awarded the Advocate S.K. Jain Scholarship for Topper of B.A.,LL.B. was a recognition of this fact.

My interest in Alternate Dispute Resolution, and Arbitration specifically, began as a result of curiosity in the second year of my law school. Having heard about it from a friend, I decided to research further on it and found the concept extremely interesting and a practicable means of dispute resolution. The benefits of Alternate Dispute Resolution, i.e. speed, cost-effectiveness and expertise, appealed to my sense of how the system should be and I decided to gain as much experience and knowledge as I could in it. Therefore, I pursued a Diploma in Arbitration, Conciliation and Alternate Dispute Resolution offered by Symbiosis. Also, most of my internships after that were directed towards alternate dispute resolution. I interned with the arbitration and dispute resolution teams at Advani & Co., Kachwaha & Partners, Bharucha & Partners and this cemented my interest for arbitration.

Please tell us about your work profile at WG and Bharucha.

(Trisha worked in the Dispute Resolution team of Bharucha and Partners and Wadia Ghandy & Co. before she decided to pursue Masters in International Dispute Settlement.)

Working as an Associate at both Bharucha and Partners and Wadia Ghandy & Co. was an important stepping stone in my professional career. I was fortunate to have guidance and mentorship from the partners at both firms and a collegial set of colleagues, who made the transition from a student to a working professional smooth. At both firms, I was involved in high-stake commercial litigation cases and international and domestic arbitrations.

According to you, is it better to pursue higher education right after graduation or after gaining some Post Qualification Experience?

It depends on a lot of factors. Pursuing a Master or higher degree is usually a step towards a professional goal that a person envisages for himself. Thus, a decision to pursue it is best taken when the person is reasonably certain of his professional goals or at least what his/her next steps after the Masters will be.

Many of the people who pursue an LL.M. already have work experience before taking up the course. Gaining prior work experience in the field of law for the person who wishes to pursue higher studies is advisable – that way the person can be sure that he/ she wants to continue working/studying in that field of law. Having said that, there are also several people who are sure of their areas of concentration and take up higher studies right after graduation, and have done well for themselves.

Apart from Graduate Institute, which other universities offer good arbitration courses? What made you choose MIDS over others?

The interest among Universities to have a specialised programme dedicated to Arbitration is relative now but fast picking up. Most Universities offer one or two courses on Arbitration, which the student can combine with other courses during their LL.M. Some notable Universities that offer good arbitration courses are Columbia Law School, Queen Mary University of Law, Georgetown Law School, Stockholm University and recently Miami School of Law.

The Masters in International Dispute Settlement (MIDS) offered jointly by the Graduate Institute and University of Geneva is quite unique in that sense. The entire programme is geared towards giving its student an exposure to various dispute resolution mechanisms, with a particular focus on International Arbitration. At the MIDS, courses are offered on both Public and Private International Law, and more specifically on WTO, ICJ, UNCLOS, Investment Arbitration, International Commercial Arbitration and Sports Arbitration. As regards International Arbitration, MIDS has specific courses on international arbitration in specific regions like United States, European Union, China, Latin America etc and also intensive courses on the different facets of arbitration like the Arbitration Agreement, New York Convention, Definition of Investment in Investment Arbitration etc. These courses are taught by well-known practitioners and academicians in those fields. For example, Professor Gabrielle Kaufmann-Kohler and Zachary Douglas took courses on commercial and investment arbitration, Professor Albert van den Berg took a course on New York Convention, Professor Jan Paulsson took a course on Investment Arbitration and Professor William Park on Arbitration in the United States. It truly was learning from the best!

The well-designed programme as well as the location in Geneva, which is home to numerous international organizations, made the choice to take up the MIDS an appropriate one.

Having been the recipient of the Hans Wilsdorf Scholarship and Ratan Tata Travel Grant, tell us more about scholarships for Indians at the MIDS?

The Hans Wilsdorf Scholarship is an incredible opportunity offered by the Swiss-based Hans Wilsdorf Foundation to allow students pursue graduate courses at the Graduate Institute. It is a full scholarship and was an essential factor in my being able to pursue the MIDS. Similarly, the Ratan Tata Travel Grant is offered by the Sir Ratan Tata Trust to students travelling abroad for post-graduate or doctoral studies.

The MIDS administration encourages applicants from all over the world, and every year a considerable percentage of the intake is from India. Professors have often chided that there is an “Indian mafia” at the MIDS! The Hans Wilsdorf Foundation offers quite a few scholarships to students admitted into the MIDS – in my year at the MIDS, an estimated 8-10 students had the Hans Wilsdorf Scholarship.

Apart from this, students from India also have the option to apply to other scholarships, which are not necessarily MIDS-centric. For example, scholarships are offered by the Sir Ratan Tata Foundation, Aga Khan Foundation, Inlaks etc.

Tell us in detail about the academic programme at the MIDS. What differences did you find in the education systems of India and Geneva?

To answer the last question first, the education systems in India and Geneva, and abroad generally, differ greatly.

Pursuing an LL.M. abroad is an act of discipline and perseverance. For starters, the readings for each class were usually enormous, often going upto 500 pages for a single class of 5-6 hours. We were told that for one hour spent in class, there would be readings for atleast two-three hours. This is significantly different from the approach in Indian law schools. The classroom teaching style differs in that there is more learning through discussions and debates. The professors pay a lot of attention to the viewpoints of the students and give inputs from their experiences or jurisprudence to add to the discussion. To gain from this level of exchange, it was necessary to be thorough with the prescribed readings.

MIDS, like other foreign LL.M.s, provides mentoring and assistance to its students to help them adjust and settle into the system. We had a set of amazing tutors who were always at hand to answer our queries and provide guidance whenever needed. The administration was extremely friendly and helpful and helped us with everything from visa to permit to choice of courses to career counselling.

Do you think knowledge of European languages such as French or Spanish helps in areas related to Private or Public International law?

Most definitely. In International Arbitration, a lot of the case-load originates from Latin America, Russia or Europe. Plus, some offices of even international firms have a huge French or Spanish population and prefer persons who speak those languages. Thus, fluency in one or more European languages is a huge advantage.

After the MIDS, you joined WilmerHale in London as a legal intern in their International Arbitration team. Tell our readers about the experience.

Anyone who has ever studied or practiced arbitration knows Gary Born. The fact that he leads the International Arbitration practice at WilmerHale made the choice of firm easy for me.

WilmerHale has a straightforward application process for its internship programme. Once the application makes it past the first round, there is an interview with the Internship Committee. Successful candidates are then invited to intern with them for three months.

WilmerHale has a wide portfolio of International Arbitration and international law cases, including human rights cases. At any point of time, they are handling arbitrations seated around the world and are also pro bono representing victims of human right violations. The team at WilmerHale is young, energetic and welcoming. I was fortunate enough to assist with both their arbitrations and a human rights case in the African Court on Human and Peoples’ Rights.

You have recently joined as a Trainee in the International Arbitration group at Shearman & Sterling LLP– Tell us about your experience.

Shearman & Sterling is a well-renown practice in International Arbitration and is touted to have one of the best portfolios of cases, both in international commercial arbitration and investment arbitration. Their International Arbitration practice in Paris office is headed by Emmanuel Gaillard, a stalwart in the field.

As a result, my experience so far has been extremely interesting and gratifying. I have been working on energy arbitrations and investment arbitrations and enjoying every bit of it. Of course, it requires a lot of hard work and long hours, but it is all completely worth it.

The application process at Shearman & Sterling is quite comprehensive – once the application is selected, there are 2 rounds of interviews – the first one is usually taken by Associates along with a Counsel, and the second one is taken by a Partner.

You also served as Legal Assistant to Professor Pierre Tercier. Do you think it is better to work with an arbitrator rather than an ADR firm? Tell us your experience.

I consider myself extremely lucky to have had the opportunity to work with Professor Pierre Tercier. Professor Tercier is considered one of the top arbitrators in the world and consequently, sits as arbitrator in some of the most interesting investment arbitrations and international commercial arbitrations.

Working with an arbitrator is a different experience than working with a law firm. As Legal Assistant to Professor Tercier, I gained valuable insight into the functioning of an arbitral tribunal – a hitherto unknown process to me. As a counsel, it is one’s duty to assist the tribunal navigate the case and come to a decision. Watching a tribunal work is like peeking behind the curtains and learning how best to do this.

I do not have a preference of working with an arbitrator over a counsel practice, or vice versa. Both involve equally interesting and exciting work and maybe at this stage of my career, I look forward to gaining more experience in both.

Lastly, what would be your parting message for our readers?

If you have a passion and do not mind facing a few challenges, you can get what you want. Also, do not hesitate to reach out to people you will be surprised how often they go out of their way to help you.
August 22, 2015
Sidhartha Peddinti, Startup Lawyer & Business Consultant at GlobalQuest Ventures LLC, on being a business lawyer and strategy adviser
Sidhartha Peddinti graduated in Law from University of London through an unique programme through London School of Economics, in 2011. A graduate of Business & Economics from University of Toronto, he is currently a Startup Lawyer & Business Consultant at GlobalQuest Ventures LLC.

He started working in the Immigration Law Offices of RAK at USA. Thereafter he went on to become partner at California Law Services where he handled immigration and bankruptcy work. He describes himself to be a lawyer with an entrepreneurial mindset.

In this interview he talks about:
- His choice to become a lawyer even after specialising in economics;
- The options for a lawyer to become an entrepreneur;
- How he joined LSE and his experience at the institution; and
- His journey as an entrepreneur.
Tell us about yourself. Since when are you living in US? Where did you get your primary education from?

I am a real international citizen, in that I was born in Dubai, raised all over the Middle East, then spent three years during middle school at an international boarding school called Rishi Valley in India, moved to Toronto with my family in high school, obtained a bachelors degree from Toronto, a law degree from London, and then another advanced law degree from Los Angeles. So, my varied experiences and vastly different background has shaped my mentality, my attitudes, and my interests to be a hybrid of an Indo-Canadian-Middle Eastern, rounded up with an outdoor Californian lifestyle. I have been in the US since 2011, and have been an attorney since the past year and a half, i.e. January 2014.

You did your bachelors in Business & Economics from the prestigious University of Toronto, tell us something about the course, the school and why you choose business & Economics?

A pivotal moment shaped the way I thought about business and my career was in high school. I read a book called ‘Rich Dad – Poor Dad’ which I bought at a garage sale for $5. It explained the difference between (what the author referred to as the 4 quadrants) employees and self employed persons who fall in quadrants one and two, business owners and investors fell into 3 and 4. 1 & 2 work for their money – they don’t show up to work – they don’t get paid (even most lawyers fall in here – no client, no money). 3 and 4 found a way to be involved in multiple avenues and still accumulate wealth, while they are busy doing other things with their time or managing multiple assets they own.

I wanted to understand more about how I could end up in the sectors 3 and 4 – where I can get my money to work for me, a state where, through my acquired and vested interests in companies, homes, stocks, and other assets, I could receive multiple sources of income. This was the start of my interest into economics, and business – I simply had to understand the way different business models worked, how the market worked, and how to operate a business. After getting accepted into the best University of Toronto – the number 1 University in Canada, it was a real no-brainer that I had to pick this school. It was over 175 years old, and in the top 25 best universities in the world. The courses were very challenging, but it was rewarding to complete the degree and understand how market cycles worked, and how each industry was affected by these cycles.

A degree in Business and Economics is often enough to land anyone lucrative job at a big company. Why did you choose to do Restructuring through CAIRP, and then choose law after that, rather than accounting, finance, investments – the natural course for business majors?

Good question. Following from the previous question, after I understood the way the different models worked, I knew that there was a recession that was going to affect North America, atleast thats what our Economics Professors were predicting around 2005/2006. I researched this theory and found the bubble was about to burst since everyone had their credit over-extended. Virtually all my friends ended up choosing a big firm for either accounting, audit, strategy, or some for an MBA. I wanted to prove my theory of the recession and be involved in that game of using the market to my advantage I hunted for a boutique law firm that specialized in Bankruptcy law and restructuring law, and choose to join their practice as an Estate Administrator – a job that gave me a brief overview of the process involved. The pay was less than half of what my friends were accepting immediately after graduating, but almost immediately after joining the firm, I started a course, sponsored by the lawyer, in Bankruptcy & Restructuring law & consulting, through the association that monitored Restructuring Professionals in Canada called CAIRP – Canadian Association of Insolvency & Restructuring Professionals. I received my certification to consult in a very short time since I was lucky to finish all my courses and pass the state exam in one sitting. As soon I completed all my practical training, within 6 months of initially joining this industry, I started a firm called Clear Debt Solutions. From 2007 – 2012, I had over 1000 cases that I personally handled, close to 500 being business bankruptcies. The firm still exists and is controlled by partners who I hired when I joined law school in 2009.

You did your law from London Scool of Economics, through the International Law Program from University of London from 2009-2011. Tell us about your time there, and why you choose that program over Canadian or US schools?

After being exposed to many lawyers in my restructuring practice, I wanted to add law school to complete my quest to understand more about business and the legality of doing business. I started law school from the UK, rather than in North America, because I wanted to have a unique edge to my portfolio, that separates me from the normal law applicant. I choose the International Law Program specifically, because it was flexible in its timings, its lectures delivery methods, and its study methodology. During these years, my consulting firm was booming, as the recession got worse, my revenue got better, and by mid-2010, I operated 5 locations throughout Toronto. I had a partner, few employees and hundreds of clients every year. I could not leave all this to complete a full time law program, which most Canadian law schools offered (Only 8 in Canada by the way), and which was also required by Immigration for me to attend law school in the US.

By choosing to study in an International Program, based out of London, yet not being required to physically be present one hundred percent of the time, allowed me to work and study simultaneously – something that enhanced my understanding of the subject matter, while being able to practically utilize and gain ‘lawyerly skills’ through my practice in Toronto. Sure, it was hectic, since I flew back and forth, balancing school and work in two continents. I simply could not let either of them go. Of course, the fact that it was University of London, one of the best schools in world had a lot to do with it, and when they offered me an entire law degree in under $20,000 (plus still able to work) compared to $150,000 in the US – I could not pass up that offer, and in the end did not rack up a single dollar of student debt as compared to an average law student who has over $150k debt in the US.

Did you interact with Indian students there, given that UK law schools are a popular choice among Indian law students?

I met some incredible students who were also part of the international program. In fact, it allowed me to network with students from almost 50 countries directly through a portal system, something I checked out before I started the program, and many of those people are still my close friends to this day, in Canada, India, Pakistan, and even from Brasil and other countries. The pass rate at the International Law Program was roughly 25% after the 3^rd year, so unfortunately many of the Indian students I met did not manage to complete the program, or moved on from law into other areas.

With your LLM from Southwestern University, USA, you have received legal training from three countries. In what ways has this versatile academic environment helped you?

To remain true to my original quest of being in quadrant 3 and 4 – business owner and an investor, I knew that the opportunity for this dream truly existed in the US, compared to Canada or the UK (from a global standpoint). So, while finishing law school from London in 2010, I applied to LLM programs all over Canada and the US for the 2011 Fall start session. I knew that the market was slowly starting to pick up now, and in a few years the market would be in the re-building stages again. I wanted to be in the center of this movement, and by being in California – the world’s hub for innovation and technology, I could not go wrong being a lawyer and entrepreneur in California. I was lucky enough to be accepted into all the schools I applied to, and they even allowed me to start the LLM program before my final grades were released from University of London. It was a miracle, since the administrators office at Southwestern made this exception for the first time for a foreign student in over 100 years. In two weeks of starting, I received my grades, and another miracle happened where I was in the 15% of students who passed all the courses that year, thus getting my degree after I had already started working towards a LLM degree.

I picked Southwestern in Los Angeles because it was a school that had a flexible course options, and one that allowed me to complete the courses that I wanted to take. My eventual strategy was to attempt the dreadful California bar exam with 15% pass rate for foreign lawyers, and I knew I had to be prepared for it, since I am competing with local students with 3 years or legal training, compared to only 1 year for me.

You never took a job at BIGLAW while you do have an impressive lawyerly profile. Why so?

My interests, skills, and passion lies in entrepreneurship. I choose to do law to become a lawyer, but more importantly to become a good businessman. I believe that it has allowed me to think in a manner that is different from the lay person. I did not take up any positions at large firms because I believed that I have a unique skill set that would be wasted at a large firm, doing routine work, albeit they pay a lot for it. Many of my friends work a large firms, and making large paychecks, but the very thought of a desk job never appealed to me, and I have rejected some very lucrative offers in the last year, since I prefer to be out and about, running around making things happen. I am a very high energy individual who needs to constantly be in motion, and although for some of my friends BIGLAW has worked out great, it was never my cup of tea.

The California Bar is said to be the hardest law exam in North America with less than 15% pass rates for foreign trained lawyers over the past 30 years. Explain why you choose to do this crazy step, given these statistics?

I knew the statistics and I knew the high chances of failure. No one thought I could make this happen, since there are horror stories all over the web of people failing the California Bar 5 or 6 times. I thoroughly researched about every course I was expected to take, and by carefully selecting only Bar Courses, and some international law (my interest) courses in my LL.M, I was able to complete all core courses required by Californian law students that were going to be tested on the Bar. This allowed me to get the local training I needed for those courses, plus having international exposure. I nevertheless decided to take the bar and give it a shot, and luckily I was among the 22% of LL.M students that passed the Bar in my round of the California Bar Exam for July 2013.

Before we go into your entrepreneurship ventures, tell us about your legal consultancy work. How did you establish such a vibrant consultancy practice?

In my quest to be in quadrant 3 and 4, I engraved in my personal charter that I would understand different business models, so that I would eventually have various companies in my own portfolio. This is still my mission, and every time I meet an entrepreneur in a different industry, one unknown to me, I gladly take on the case to understand the industry better.

I had this mentality since I started my first business, and I have enjoyed every business I have consulted with. Thus, my present consulting practice is one that can cater to clients from many industries, and clients from all stages of the business cycle. I now understand how these different models work, and am easily able to put myself in the shoes of my client, the entrepreneur, and advice, strategize, and legalize – all in one chain of thought. It is a lot of work, since I spend the time to research about different industries, but I suppose I am hooked to it. This has left me at the crossroads of law and entrepreneur.

How is Canada or US as a career choice for Indian law students?

Canada is a great place for Indian lawyers – especially those in the midst of their careers. The process of qualification and the exams are easier, with almost a 80% pass rate. In my opinion, it is great for an entrepreneurial lawyer, especially one who wants to serve the Indian community – especially in Criminal, Real Estate, or Divorces. Litigation is primarily taken up by local law students – Indian or otherwise, and largely dominated by those who received local training.

US is a different beast altogether. The laws are also similar to British, but the legal ecosystem is very different. The bar is tougher, longer, and more intense. There are a lot of restrictions and qualifications the applicant has to go through. That said, a US lawyer is valued globally, and opens far more international doors than I would had as a Canadian lawyer in the international and startup up space. There are a lot of jobs in the US, especially for litigators, since the laws are geared towards solving grievances in court. There is also a lot more work for lawyers in the US, in terms of the types of law, the types of cases, and the truly unique legal system they have created here (I find a vast contrast from the Canadian and British legal culture). So, be ready to get comfortable knowing about the local culture, if you want to be a successful American lawyer in the US.

Why did you make the shift from Canada to the US?

My move was primarily because of two reasons: (i) large opportunity to be involved in the upswing of the economy in terms of products, startups, and opportunities; (ii) great weather compared to the bitter Canadian winters.

I have always wanted to be involved in the globalization of economies, and being in California was more suited to my needs than to accomplish that from Toronto. However, since I have a consulting practice in Toronto, I still fly there often and work there.

In the US you started working at Immigration Law Offices of the RAK. How is the work culture there and did the local reference help you understand the culture better?

In my attempt to find out the local work culture and integrate into local legal scene, I decided to work for a solo lawyer, plus he knew immigration laws, so I did not really have to pay a hefty price for an immigration lawyer to figure out my visa. To understand immigration laws in the US is very important, it is the most complex system in the world, and a simple violation can be disastrous. I figured by working for an Immigration lawyer, I could hit three birds with one stone – (a) local work experience, training, and integration; (b) learning about immigration laws; and (c) did not have to pay for an immigration lawyer since he mentored me to fill my own paperwork which I wanted to get a grip on anyway.

You were a partner California Law Services and worked there for a year. Where are you currently working, what kind of work do you do there?

I worked as an Immigration and Bankruptcy lawyer with my previous employer, RAK, turned partner at the new firm. We mainly handled immigration and bankruptcy work, both which were areas I had some comfort with. I found both areas to be very competitive, and faced fierce competition. Meanwhile, my personal interests in entrepreneurship were not being fulfilled, so post my return from India last December to explore the startup scene, I joined as a partner at a boutique firm which was focused on law, entrepreneurship and startups.

I currently work as a partner at GlobeQuest Ventures, LLC – as the name indicates, we travel the world looking for startups and companies to help them in their entrepreneurial journeys – legally, strategically, and practically. I absolutely love it – and finally have been able to combine my passion of law and entrepreneurship in one.

Please tell our readers something about your entrepreneurship journey, and how you lived your 20’s working and studying?

As I mentioned earlier, reading that book changed my career path. I was getting the education and theory side of it, but I also wanted to work on the practical side of it. I started my first business as soon as I finished the book in high school, aged around 18 or so. I have never looked back, and have been fortunate enough to have made that step at such an early age. I had some sacrifices along the way, but I see those as opportunity costs, and have not regretted any missed vacations, or parties (missed many of them). I made sure to have a very vibrant social when I could and led an active lifestyle to compensate from the stress from my business and school. Sports was my way of balancing myself, and I enjoyed playing 5 different competitive sports in my 20’s.

How many companies in total have you founded?

I have been fortunate to be part of 8 different companies to date. I have recently acquired equity portions in 3 new companies, and hope to be part of another 100 companies in the next 20 years or so.

How do you define yourself, as a Lawyer or as an entrepreneur?

A lawyer with an entrepreneurial mindset. My dream of combining both my passions has led to work in a dual capacity – working as a lawyer when needed, or as a founder, partner, strategic advisor, or in-house lawyer. I value flexibility and adaptability greatly, and my past experiences that allowed me to transition into role with relative ease.

Tell us something about your latest startup venture.

Through GlobalQuest Ventures, LLC, my recent clients have primarily been disruptive technologies that are in the mobile app space. One is a disruptive journalism app, another is a Uber for private planes, and another is a revolutionary dating site for a selected and elite customer.

Another venture I started is called LLMbartutoring.com, a tutoring school that is dedicated to helping foreign trained lawyers integrate into the California system by assisting in local cultural transition, job training, course assistance, Application help and California Bar Exam training. This information can also be found in my personal ventures section on my webpage.

On the other side, I started working on some revolutionary product lines with some very famous scientists, who specialize in holistic medical formulations. I have approached some celebrities and famous television personalities to team up with us, and can possibly secure a very large deal in the next 2 months that can help us potentially move millions of units every year. That would satisfy my itch to be a co-founder in a truly non-legal business – a turmeric infused skin care line, scientifically backed and tested by the foremost expert in turmeric infusions.

Your website sidharthapeddinti.com seems to be offering a complete ecosystem of service for startups. How did you manage to that?

By finding a way to incorporate all my interests in one way through GlobalQuest Ventures, LLC, I decided to put all my thoughts on one site, that describes me as a person, as a lawyer, an entrepreneur and eventually as an investor (with my portfolio). Thank you for mentioning my page, since I built that page myself in less than a day. I have no previous computer training, programming or coding or any other backend experience, but I knew that by watching the right videos and reading the right articles, I could do it myself. I have since created 5 webpages, and even got some people asking me for a referral for the company who created my site. In short, I want to prove and inspire people to understand that anything can be done, with the right mindset, and if a non-tech person like myself can make wesites in a day, others can live their dreams and make it happen over night as well. That was the real motivation for the site – inspiring people to live their dreams by quitting their boring jobs as a first step.

Are you also working with any Indian companies who are looking to expand internationally?

I have started to form many strategic partnerships with corporate lawyers, startups consultants, and other individuals who are involved in the Indian startup scene. I am eager to enter the Indian startup space and help take those companies international – US, Canada or other countries. We look to form strategic alliances, joint ventures, mergers, acquisitions, and even where lucky, take it public.

I am looking to team up with key individuals in India who can help me in this quest. That is the reason my company is called GlobalQuest Ventures, LLC – where law meets entreprenrurship and strategy.

What advise will you give to young lawyers who want to become an entrepreneur?

I find the practice of law requires a different set of entrepreneurial skills than a mobile app company or a revolutionary product. Being part of an elite subset of society, one that is highly regulated and controlled (worldwide), lawyers have to follow certain protocols that other entrepreneurs may not necessarily face, especially relating to contacting potential clients, or advertising standards, or types of deals that one can take one.

Thus, solo lawyers who want to hang their own shingles should think like a lawyer first, and only after taking all the protective measures, one should engage in their targeted marketing campaigns. So, it’s a unique type of an entrepreneur who should expect 3-5 years, at a minimum, to start realizing the resulting they imagine. I know a lot of lawyers, and virtually every single highly successful lawyer that I know, has been practicing for at least 5 years. So, there is no way to get around patience.
August 16, 2015
Jaya Kumar, Business Development Manager, J. Sagar Associates, on an unique work experience of Marketing+Law
Jaya Kumar started out as a graduate of English Honours from Sophia College, Mumbai, then moving on to pursue a three-year law from G. J. Advani Law College, Mumbai, from 2005-2008. She decided to take an unconventional path of choosing Marketing over being a legal Associate, by first working with Rainmaker, then Trilegal, further moving on to I&S Associates, a corporate-commercial Indian law firm. She has now been working as a Business Development (BD) – Manager at J. Sagar Associates (JSA) since 2014.

In this interview, she tells us about:
- The experience of interning throughout the last two years of law college;
- The reason behind choosing the managerial aspects of law over the more traditional ones of corporate law or litigation;
- The experience of having worked for such different kind of firms, along with the different work profile she dealt with for each;
- Her work as a Business Development Manager.
How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers who are young lawyers and law students?

I would call myself a lawyer by qualification, currently working as Business Development (BD) – Manager at J. Sagar Associates (JSA). I do understand law, but my interest is more on the marketing side of law. I have completed my English Majors from Sophia College, Mumbai, then proceeding to pursue a three-year law from G. J. Advani Law College, Mumbai.

I started my career with Rainmaker, followed by Trilegal, then a stint at I&S Associates, and now at JSA.

What prompted you to study law after completing your English Honours?

I wanted to be a journalist, but as things planned out, I never got accepted in any journalism college, haha! My father kept telling me to opt for law, but I nevertheless reserved it as a backup plan. Thus I didn’t bother to make any serious efforts to apply in all the law colleges. I got accepted in G.J. Advani, and also since I am the third generation lawyer in the family, I opted for law as a career. However, I had no idea about the BD aspect of law. My internship at Rainmaker helped me to understand the details of marketing/ BD in the legal industry. It was a new concept for me, and it sounded different and interesting.

You are a graduate of the 3 years LL.B course from G. J. Advani Law College. Please tell us a little about your law school days. What kind of internships did you do?

I was doing two internships simultaneously during the law college days (starting from the second year), one with a senior lawyer, Ms. Neelofar Akhtar at a Family Court, and the second one with Rainmaker, founded and co-founded by Mr. Sachin Malhan, Mr. Bhavin Patel and Mr. Ritvik Lukose, and they had just started developing products for the legal industry. My college timings were from 6: 30 am till 11: 30 am. I used to then go to the Family Court till 3: 00 pm, and thereafter to Rainmaker. I was trying to absorb as much as I could, in those two years.

What were your areas of interest during your graduation? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?

As I mentioned earlier about my two internships, I was most interested in practical knowledge. Law for me was vast and strange till the first year, but by the second year, it started making sense in terms of both the theory and the marketing bit of the industry, because of the internships.

Did you find that your law school education had prepared you sufficiently for the many tasks you were required to execute during your internships and later at your job?

A law college only teaches you the theory part of the law, and not the aspect of marketing yourself or the firm, but I took it as a new curve in my growth, and learnt the unusual. Also, because I chose a different stream of work in the legal fraternity, I had more need of the practical aspect of the field of law, rather than the theory. Ironically, I never interned in any law firm, but I learnt on the job with Vahura, Trilegal, I&S Associates, and now JSA.

Right after graduation, you joined Rainmaker as an Associate in their Sales and Marketing Department. What prompted you to choose the field of Marketing? How did you secure your appointment at Rainmaker?

I applied directly to Rainmaker for an internship, and it all started from there. By my second year of college, I realised that if I put in more efforts, I can be a good marketing professional. After my internship, I decided to join Rainmaker as an employee, and started handling the Sales and Marketing for the Western India.

What comprised your work in the Sales and Marketing Department as an Associate? What were the responsibilities you were entrusted with?

At Rainmaker, we were developing products for law students and lawyers, especially litigating lawyers, and also people interested in LPOs. It involved travelling and meeting law schools, litigating lawyers and budding lawyers for whom joining LPOs was a good career option.

Why have you chosen this particular avenue of Marketing and Business Development, and why not legal practice at a Corporate Law Firm?

At my stint at Rainmaker, which is also a recruiting company for lawyers, I had not come across anyone doing BD as a full time job. After Rainmaker, I joined Trilegal and realised this is what I like, and because it was a different kind of work in the industry, I believed that the value of this kind of work will have more avenues once the market opens for international firms. At Trilegal, I had an opportunity to work with Allen & Overy (A&O), when the firms had a referral relationship. It was very exciting to work in that setup, and it made my decision stronger to do BD for a law firm, rather than provide a legal opinion, or do transactions.

What led to your recruitment at Trilegal? Tell us about your recruitment process at Trilegal to our readers.

When I was looking to move from Rainmaker, my mentor’s (at Rainmaker) wife was doing BD at Trilegal, and she was looking for a junior, as Trilegal was looking to build a BD team at the firm. He recommended my name to her. Mr. Karan Singh then interviewed me, and as I had some experience in sales and marketing, I was taken on board. I was lucky to work at Trilegal.

Our readers would like to know about your work profile as an Associate of Business Development in a Top-tier law firm in India.

As a BD professional, I am involved in the indirect marketing of the firm by assisting in the visibility of the firm. I assist the partners and the firm, as a whole, to maintain their presence in the market. Sector tapping and industry intelligence is another part of my job, along with helping the firm market itself, both nationally and internationally.

What kind of Business Development skills should one require working in a Top-tier law firm like Trilegal?

No law school or MBA school can teach you marketing in a legal firm, but the most important thing that one should have is the will to learn and take a risk of doing something different from the peers. Be it Trilegal or any other law firm, at a starting point, one should research well on things such as what BD of a legal firm actually means, why a law firm is not allowed to market themselves, and what the difference between a direct and an indirect marketing is. Knowing some law helps, but even if you don’t have a law degree, you can still join the BD team. These skills can only be learnt on the job, but if BD is what one wants to be a part of, one has to be a people’s person, along with having a good hold on the language.

You have worked with Trilegal [Mumbai office] for nearly 2 years and 5 months, as an Associate of Business Development of the firm. Share your work experience in brief to our readers. Was the work schedule hectic at times?

Trilegal was the first law firm I worked at. My practical learning of BD at a law firm started then. I was lucky to work at Trilegal, and at a time when they had a referral relationship with A&O, it broadened my platform of learning. I did put in long hours, as I was new to the concept of BD, and I really wanted to understand and learn this side of the legal sector. Trilegal was very supportive.

How did you start working at I&S Associates?

I wanted to start growing as a professional and start implementing BD strategies, rather than only execute them. A friend who knew about an opening in I&S helped me get an interview slot there, and hence the job.

You have worked with I&S Associates as a Head of the Strategy and Relationship segment. Tell us about your work experience at I&S Associates.

I&S was a small firm founded by Ms. Anuradha Iyer and Ms. Bakhtiar Sunavala,and it gave me a way to start implementing my ideas. The partners were very cooperative and understanding about the new concept of BD. I was in I&S for two years.

Currently, you are working as a Business Development Manager of J. Sagar Associates. How did you secure your appointment at J. Sagar Associates? Did you get an offer from the firm?

JSA Mumbai was looking for someone who can do BD for their firm, and my name was recommended by Ms. Anuradha Iyer to Mr. Akshay Chudasama, who was looking to expand the BD team, and he then interviewed me. I then met Mr. Berjis Desai and Ms. Dina Wadia for the final confirmation. I was fortunate that they offered me the BD – Manager position.

How difficult would you say it is, changing workplaces and creating a comfort zone all over again?

With experience, it’s just a matter of time about how professional you are to be able adjust in a new place. One has to understand the culture of the firm, and take baby steps to make their mark. In my view, it’s not difficult to create a comfort zone all over again if the person is willing to learn. There are adjustments in any new place, but we have to learn to gel and focus on the growth, and other things will fall into place.

Kindly walk us through your role at JSA. How different is it being a Business Development Manager from an Attorney?

As the BD – Manager of the firm, I assist the firm in sustaining their visibility in the market. My role is to assist the partners and the firm as a whole, to develop new client relationship and strengthen the existing client relationships that we have. I help with the client events, deal submissions, cross – selling, proposals and pitches, attending conferences and also helping the partners to attend the relevant conferences/ seminars, rebranding, market intelligence and sector tapping, help the attorneys network etc.

What are the main qualities that one should acquire to be successful in the Business Development field? Please share with our readers.

Patience is the key to be successful, and as there are no specific courses or graphs that one can follow, it takes time to get the grip of the type of role a BD person needs to do. Also as attorneys are mostly busy with the deals, a BD person needs to follow up, not once, not twice, but several times, to get the information from them, and then send it out to the public domain. This needs patience, and an understanding that BD is important, but delivery to the client is also important for the partners and attorneys. As they juggle between everything, all they need is our support to market what they work on.

How is your experience so far? What is your workday like? Are there new challenges every day or did work fall into a predictable pattern?

My experience has been very good till date. I am fortunate to have worked with the best since I started my journey. As all of us know that with lawyers nothing is predictable, and thus, most days are filled with some or the other kind of work. The category of work may be similar, but different clients have different demands. I am informed of these demands by the attorneys, and then I have to customise the research and information. Challenges are there, but with JSA being a very supportive and cooperative firm, work gets on time.

What would be your parting message to law students who want to be successful in the Business Development field, and want to work as a BD Manager in a top-tier law firm like you?

Nothing comes easy, so remember to have patience, and do not shy away from the hard work. As a BD professional, you will be the odd one out in the firm, but let that work in your favour, rather than making you feel lost. BD is an important function of the firm, so put your best foot forward to understand which firm requires what kind of BD, since some will need aggressive marketing, while some only need their visibility to be sustained. Do your research on the firm and the partners of the firm well.

Choose the right firms, but always choose the learning before anything.
August 8, 2015
Nandan Kamath, Founder, LawNK, on building an illustrious career in Sports Law and IPR and being a Rhodes Scholar
Nandan Kamath traded his dream of being a professional cricketer for a life in law, and since then, there has been no looking back for him. A graduate of National Law School of India University (NLSIU) in the year 2000, Nandan has been a recipient of the Rhodes Scholarship. After completing his BCL in Law and M.Sc. in Economic & Social History from Balliol College, University of Oxford in 2002, he went on to pursue his Masters in Harvard Law School.Soon after graduating in 2003, he joined as an Associate with Davis Polk & Wardwell, where he worked for three years. On returning to India, he founded his own law firm, The Law Offices of Nandan Kamath (Law NK), which is one of the leading law firms in the country in the field of Sports, Media, Technology and IPR Laws.

With this interview, he opens up to students about:
- The importance of hard work, dedication and discipline in the field of law;
- His dual Masters in law from Oxford University and Harvard University;
- His experience of working at an international law firm;
- Working in close connection to a field close to his heart – Sports
You are a law graduate from NLSIU, what motivated you to pursue Law, especially from NLSIU?

I was a law student by chance, rather than by design. In my teenage years, I was a sportsman first, and a student next. I had my eyes set on a professional career in cricket, and chose my pre-university college purely on the strength of its cricket team. The first time I heard of NLSIU was when they sent a volleyball team to participate in our college sports festival, and I remember seeing the players’ jerseys and only thinking, at the time,that N-L-S-I-U was quite an odd jumble of letters put together. The next introduction to the law school was when the college cricket team I was on, ended up playing against (and beating) the NLSIU team. As thoughts of needing a proper college degree began to loom, I heard from a classmate about the NLSIU entrance test. Being interested in word games, puzzles and logic, I thought it would be an interesting experience for its own sake. I looked over a couple of past test papers the night before the exam, took it, and surprised myself by making it through. Although things were certainly not as competitive then as they are now, getting through the entrance exam convinced me that I might have some aptitude for the law. At least the examiners thought so!

Tell us about your time at NLSIU, what were your career plans after graduation?

Life at NLSIU didn’t get off to a particularly auspicious start. Dr. Menon made it very clear at my entrance interview that I had to choose to either pursue cricket or law studies (but not both), as the institution only had space for full-time students with strict attendance requirements. In the pre-IPL days, the odds were stacked against making a career out of cricket, so it wasn’t really much of a choice. Having made that trade-off, I put my head down and took my academics quite seriously for the first time in my life. It seemed like the right thing to do – to make full use of the opportunity if, in order to pursue it, I had given up something I was good at and enjoyed. I found that the institution was an excellent place to become aware of various national and international issues.The regularity of project work and exams enforced a level of discipline which I was quite happy to adopt. At the same time, it was quite challenging, in various ways, to be at an institution with students from all over the country, each asserting and debating different identities, perspectives and ways of thinking. It gave me a broad and useful platform in the study of law and people in general. I also met some of the smartest people I know during my five years there. In terms of career plans, I was fortunate to be selected for the Rhodes Scholarship at the beginning of my final year, so my immediate plans were made for me.

After Graduation you went on to pursue BCL from Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar. Please tell us about the course and your time at Oxford.

The BCL was a very rigorous, jurisprudence oriented course, and the academic standards were very high. I did courses on intellectual property and transnational commercial laws. The perspective was very different, with the focus being on why laws are the way they are and how they have come to be, rather than the descriptive study of the law I had been used to. It needed a fair bit of adjustment to think more analytically and to have an opinion and a view on the law, rather than being required to know what it was. In my second year at Oxford, I did my Masters in economic and social history with a focus on the history of networks and technologies, and found it very interesting. Overall, my time at Oxford was idyllic with a great mix of sports, social and academic activities. I met an internationally diverse group of people during my time there, each person with multiple interests and skills. My time at Oxford broadened my perspective and my horizons, both socially and academically.

You did not end your academic streak at Oxford, but went further and pursued LL.M from Harvard. What was it like to get into, and study at Harvard Law School?

I applied to Harvard Law School after having completed my BCL, so that probably strengthened my application. Being at Harvard Law School after two years at Oxford involved moving from a multi-disciplinary social setting, to the company of hundreds of highly-charged law graduates,most of whom had never stood second at anything they had done. It was a very competitive environment and not particularly easy going. Nonetheless, I found the LL.M. was very helpful as preparation for law practice.The weekly reading load was huge, and overall, the courses were intense and challenging (befitting the atmosphere). I found the analytical frameworks used by the teachers quite fascinating and very practically relevant, whether it was the economic analysis of law, legal realism, or anything else. It gave me a new lens to look at the law with, and added nuance and process to my thought process.

How do your dual Masters in Law help you in your current work profile? Do you plan to go for any further studies?

I believe that one’s law studies and degrees are only as valuable as the lawyer they produce. My studies have certainly given me a lot in terms of perspective, ways of thinking and analysis, and that is very valuable.Other than that, I don’t think the tags of being from a particular university help me that much in the work I do, other than perhaps leading to a (rebuttable!) presumption that I am not completely inept. As for further studies, I think the phase of my life involving formal academic study is probably behind me –I can’t really see myself going back to the classroom, exams and dissertations. But I’ll never say never – I may just surprise myself if something really excites me.

Given your academic record, were you ever interested in pursuing an academic career?

I do enjoy teaching a few classes here and there, alongside my law practice. However, pursuing an academic career was never on my agenda. I didn’t feel I had either the intellectual firepower, or the patience required to master an area of law sufficiently to teach it repeatedly, consistently and engagingly.

After your LL.M from Harvard you joined Davis Polk, a global law firm.How did you get recruited there?

I had met one of the senior partners of the firm during an internship in Mumbai at ICICI Bank,while still in law school, and had managed to stay in touch. A few years later, when I finished at Harvard Law School, I got back in touch, was called for an interview and made it through the process. It wasn’t a very hot job market at the time and I consider myself very lucky to have got the opportunity.

What is it like to work in a big and global law firm?Please tell us something about the kind of work you did there.

I worked for three years at the California office of Davis Polk in the intellectual property and global technology group. The work involved intellectual property and corporate advisory, especially in relation to mergers and acquisitions, and capital markets transactions. It was the perfect first job for me. It was challenging both substantively and in terms of work hours and it forced me to up my game, and push my limits. I found a number of mentors among the partners there. The importance of attention to detail, personal responsibility for (and pride in) work product and client orientation were my main takeaways. I also saw that it is possible to create an open, friendly and informal work environment without compromise on work product and quality standards.

You left Davis Polk after three years, what were your reasons to do so?

When I started my studies abroad, I had set myself a target of being back in India in 5-6 years. The end of this period also coincided with some plateauing in my learning and it was becoming clear that the big law firm trajectory was not the best one for me. I left Davis Polk after a brief stint in Hong Kong and Mumbai,and moved back to my hometown Bangalore, where I wanted to live and work. I didn’t have a specific work plan but was happy to put down roots and figure things out.

You set up LawNK – The Law Offices of Nandan Kamath after you left Davis Polk, what was the motivation behind going independent?

My father is a Chartered Accountant who started his own practice from scratch, worked hard, and succeeded off his own steam. Watching him from close quarters helped me recognise the many advantages of independence. It also inspired me to chart my own course, without too much fear or doubt coming into the picture. Having the opportunity to choose what I was going to work on was a big luxury, and I was determined to work in an area I loved – sport. With a view of working on sports law, I went about meeting a number of athletes, coaches and others working in the nascent sports industry.

Every one of them made it quite clear that there was little value a lawyer could add at that point, given the lack of structure and professionalism in the field. That feedback temporarily set back my plans to establish a sports law practice. I involved myself in other ventures in sport and athlete representation, which gave me a ground level view of issues Indian athletes were facing and the state of play overall. Over time, I started getting requests for legal assistance from others who were making their way in sport business and I began advising them as a sole practitioner. The game changer came in 2008 with the IPL. The professionalization of sports through the league brought sports contracts into the mainstream in India. This is when things took flight, and the firm has grown organically since then.

LawNK – The Law Offices of Nandan Kamath specialises in Sports, Media, Technology and IPR Laws.How did you build your client base, especially since you spent your formative years outside the country?

Over the years, our clients have found us rather than the other way around. A well-defined focus in terms of practice areas, and a team that is knowledgeable and passionate about the work, are our greatest strengths.The client base has built through word of mouth, and it is not something I have ever actively worried about. We focus on our work, and know that interesting work will find us when the time is ripe and the opportunity is right.

You are also a Trustee at GoSports Foundation.Tell us a bit about it and your role therein?

GoSports Foundation (www.gosports.in) is a non-profit that I co-founded in 2008. The organisation’s vision is to empower young athletes and enable them to achieve their Olympic and Paralympic dreams. Being quite aware of the state of Indian sports, we started GoSports Foundation to contribute our bit to the growth of an athlete-centric sports ecosystem in non-cricket sports. Our quest is to bring professionalism and positivity into athletes’ journeys and to ride with them through ups and downs, providing financial support, mentorship, access to expertise and career advice. As Managing Trustee, I play an active role in the administration of the organisation, and support the executive team wherever needed in the programmes. It also provides me the opportunity to work with our Board of Advisors, which comprises of Abhinav Bindra, Rahul Dravid and P. Gopichand, in thinking about Indian sport and making meaningful interventions. It is work that I love and an organisation I am proud being a part of. I have met fascinating people along the way, and my work with GoSports Foundation has opened doors to a wide variety of experiences – from hosting a TV sports show, to designing national talent support schemes, working with childhood heroes, being on selection panels and drafting state sports policies. While it is often challenging work and requires lots of self-belief, I have received far more from it than I have given.

Rahul Dravid on extreme left and Nandan Kamath on extreme right.

Who form your clientele? Could you please share with us any representation you are particularly proud of having worked on?

Our sports practice advises a wide range of governing bodies, franchises, players and sports brands. Cricket and football have been the primary disciplines but we are now seeing more in tennis, badminton and golf, and the new professional leagues are also mushrooming. Other areas of our special focus have been advertising and marketing laws, e-commerce, privacy, food and beverages law, and medical law. I am particularly proud of our team for being empanelled by the ICC as the official law firm for the Cricket World Cup hosted in India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh in 2011. It was a great honour and privilege, and watching India win the finals was the icing on the cake!

Do you think playing sports has helped you as a lawyer?

I have always believed that playing serious sport is excellent preparation for professional life. With the benefit of many years of experience now, I think this is even more so for the law. Competitive sport provides early exposure to the adversarial process. It also requires one to make real-time decisions based on dynamic, unstructured data –which is only possible to do competently if you have prepared thoroughly, and practised hard. All this is not too different from law practice! Also, sport teaches you that although it is primarily your own individual pursuit, you are almost always playing in a context – representing someone or something else (a team, institution or even a country). Similarly, it is a client and/or a cause that makes one an advocate, and that is always good perspective to carry. Finally, you learn from sport that you are only as good as your last innings, but I’m going to ignore that for now because my last one was a duck.

Many of our readers would be interested in having a career in sports law and representing celebrity sport stars. What would be your advice to them?

If it is truly a substantive area that you are interested in, it is a field worth investing time and energy into. The glory and glamour fade away quite quickly, so it is important to have the right motivations – that will help you stick it out through the early days and mature and stay passionate about and interested in the work. Other than that, the best advice I got as a young lawyer was to become a good lawyer first before attempting to add any prefixes (such as ‘sports’ lawyer), and to focus first on learning the tools of the profession – in transactional law, that includes things like client communication, drafting, time management, multi-tasking,organisation, attention to detail, and finding one’s own methods and practices. If you have built a strong practice toolkit, adding new substantive areas to the repertoire is actually not that difficult. Sports law is not rocket science and it is an interest that can be pursued at any point by a skilled lawyer.

What do you look for when you hire lawyers to work with you?

We look for self-motivated young lawyers who have also demonstrated their interest in our practice areas. Our firm has graduates from NLSIU, NALSAR, Symbiosis, ILS, GNLU and NUJS, so it is quite a diverse set. A few have come through our internship process, which is a good outcome for all concerned. I am very proud of the lawyers in our firm, and have enjoyed seeing them grow steadily as professionals. From what I see, today’s young law graduates are better trained and prepared than I was when I finished law school.

Do you provide for internship opportunities? Where should a law student apply if he/she wants exposure in sports law?

Yes, we do have an internship programme. We accept only one or two interns at a time to make the experience meaningful, so spots are limited. It is a chance to give law students exposure to the types of work we do, and our work environment. There is an online form (http://www.lawnk.com/home/) that interested applicants can complete for more information on the process.

It is a dream to work in the subject we love for most of us. What do you have to say to those who didn’t end up doing what they love the most?

As one steadily moves up Maslow’s hierarchy of needs (I told you that NLSIU left a lasting impact!), beyond security and the need for external recognition and validation, I feel that the journey ends up becoming about two things – the pursuit of mastery and the pursuit of engagement. Mastery brings the joy of excellence; engagement brings the joy of working on things one cares about. It is only the lucky few whose pursuit of both mastery and engagement unify in their daily work, or even converge on a regular basis for that matter. I feel the rest of us must remain open to tapping different and diverse outlets and sources if we are to simultaneously experience both of these pursuits. For whatever reason, not everyone might get engagement with things one loves at the workplace. But it is still possible to find an outlet for this, maybe through hobbies, volunteer work or even by innovating within the limitations of the workplace. Life is too short and you are already very fortunate if you know what you truly love!

What would be your parting message for our readers?

Have a clear career plan in mind, but leave enough room for chance to play its part. Also, stay open to being inspired.
August 7, 2015
Nagarjun Matangi, Legal Counsel, Hewlett-Packard India, on the HP OGC programme and work experience
Nagarjun Matangi graduated in law from NLSIU, Bangalore in 2011. As a student he was the Recipient of Vice Chancellor’s Gold Medal for “Outstanding Personal Achievement” and he was also the Vice President of Student Bar Association in the year 2009-10.

During his final year Hewlett-Packard (HP) had launched the Graduate Attorney Program in India and reached out to colleges – Nagarjun was among the two students who got selected from NLSIU (4 in total) as part their campus recruitment drive.

Since then Nagarjun has been working at Hewlett-Packard as a legal counsellor. His role includes a combination of Commercial Transaction support plus providing support for General Legal matters.

In this interview with Nagarjun we talk about:
- His college years as a part of NLSIU
- Planning his internships in his college years
- Starting work as a legal counsellor of Hewlett-Packard
- The HP India OGC Internship Program and the qualities they lookout for
- The legal department at HP
What made you gravitate towards the study of law at NLS? Was it planned or just a matter of chance?

It was completely unplanned and was an interesting turn of events. I hail from Andhra Pradesh where the choice is usually limited between Engineering and Medicine and I had never been able to fully decide upon my choice of stream. I spent seven years in Sainik School Korukonda which was a feeder institution to the National Defence Academy, but was for some reason inclined to remain a civilian. I could never get over the confusion as I had managed to secure a seat in institutions meant for completely different streams – IIT, Architecture and Law.

I chose Law primarily to overcome the stereotype of options that I observed around me and that turned out to be a truly rewarding choice of a lifetime.

What were your areas of interest during your graduation? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?

When you end up in law school by accident, you get excited and interested at everything that is introduced to you. I was very fascinated with Tax, Constitution and Family laws. However, what truly interested me were the Commercial Contracts and the difference that a crafty draftsman can make to the Contract. I used to try and pick up associated matters in my internship to understand how the Courts dealt with the interpretation of complex commercial clauses in a contract and I also used to select Seminar Courses that offer practical knowledge on these aspects. One would be surprised as to how much more this area of practice can offer beyond what is taught in classroom.

What do you have to say about mooting at law school and legal writing for journals? Are these helpful even after the student graduates?

I admit not having given much attention to either of these activities during law school; but it wasn’t something I had to regret. However, now that I am better informed, if I had an option to revisit my time as a law student, I would definitely make use of these options for they aid in developing essential skillsets at a very nascent stage. It would remain useful even after graduation.

Did you plan out your internships throughout law school or did it all just happen by chance? What role did the placement committee play in securing internships?

One of the pitfalls of accidentally ending up at law school, is that one would lack the requisite awareness about legal internships and how to plan them. Thanks to my seniors and friends at NLS, I could fill up this gap before it was far too late. This is also a reason why most of my internships were at trial and High Courts. While I did learn a great deal from my internships at these Courts, someone interested in a corporate profile would have prioritized and planned their internships a little differently.

It is essential for the fresh students to be educated at the option generally available through formal sessions that can be organized by the student body itself. Else, it could be too late before the batch can have its Placement Committee set-up.

Our Placement Committee played a great role in providing wider options and facilitating the selection process for these internships. Most students get introduced to formal In-house or law firm internships thru the Placement Committee.

You have been working at Hewlett-Packard as legal counsel since your graduation. How did your appointment take place? Please tell us about the recruitment process at Hewlett-Packard.

HP was implementing the Graduate Attorney Program in India for the first time in 2011 and had reached out to NLS and a couple of other colleges for this selection. This program was part of the Talent Factory initiative of HP’s Office of the General Counsel (OGC) which focuses on Making Talent internally rather than Taking Talent from outside the organization. The selection process involved two rounds of interviews, one each with the then Country Counsel of HP India and also with the regional Deputy General Counsel who had come down from Singapore for this purpose. This program is a regular feature in HP US and was being introduced in India only on a pilot basis. However, there is certainly a lot of enthusiasm and positive vibe around it here and it should not be long before we reach out to the colleges in India for implementing round 2 of this program again here.

That said, general recruitments at In-house legal teams, unlike law firms is strictly based on openings that may come up. It involves a combination of factors like the timing of the opening, the role and experience requirements sought for such opening, etc.

Tell us what your typical work day is like. What is the role of an in-house counsel at Hewlett-Packard? What are your primary responsibilities?

For most of us on HP’s Legal Team (OGC) in India, our role is a combination of Commercial Transaction Support plus providing support for General Legal matters. As part of transactional support, we are involved in drafting, reviewing and negotiating contracts concerning provision of various aspects of the Information Technology portfolio (services/software/hardware/cloud). This involves a lot of collaboration with the respective teams to understand the nature of IT solution being offered by HP, the risk associated, advising on mitigation strategies etc.

A good amount of my day is spent in meetings of this nature with various stakeholders of the contracting/tendering process as well as those involved in offering the solution. These are essentially my internal clients. Contract negotiations are the part I keenly look forward to and one gets to learn a great deal from these negotiations.

General legal matters include Data Privacy, Taxation (limited), Litigation Support, Commercial Disputes, Internal business advisory, Competition law etc. (new and interesting issues keep coming up for reference and the same may not fall into any particular bucket of practice). These cannot be further detailed.

Being a large MNC with diverse operations, guidance is sought from the legal team on numerous legal matters associated with the day to day functioning. Litigations and Consumer matters also form part of the portfolio of the legal team at HP. In addition to the same the team also needs to proactively align the business with the changing regulatory requirements and provide trainings as well as prepare suitable policies to guide all employees.

How is the legal department organized at HP?

HP India OGC is primarily segregated into teams that support a particular Business Unit of the Company. Various portfolios of the IT sector as handled by the respective Business Units. At the same time, the teams are not segregated into water tight compartmentalized structures. For example, today I may be primarily supporting the Printing and Personal Systems division of the company, but I can always extend support to the transactions involving Software licensing. This helps us diversify our experience in all portfolios that the IT industry has to offer, especially since HP’s operations extend into all these portfolios.

Other countries in our region (Asia-Pacific-Japan) have similar team structures and the entire region reports into the Deputy General Counsel for APJ. The DGCs of all regions across the world finally report into the General Counsel based at our HQ in Palo Alto.

What is the basic difference that you see between a lawyer and an in-house counsel? What do you think is the biggest challenge for an in-house counsel?

The basic differentiating factor lies in our association with our clientele and the purpose of such association. While a lawyer will put forth the existing position of law before the client, the role of an in-house counsel goes a mile beyond and is required to show the path of compliance with the ever changing dynamic laws and ensure it is in line with the ultimate business objectives.

As in-house counsels, we need to be conscious of the fact that our business teams are our primary clients and instead of throwing fancy jargons or weighty case names, our responses should be simpler and more comprehensible to our clients who do not necessarily have a legal background. And when the response is a NO, we must be capable of showing the path of compliance to make it a YES. This is both a primary function as well as the biggest challenge to do well as an in-house counsel.

Particularly, at HP, we are encouraged to focus on innovating upon the existing processes to make them Simpler and Better. It is a constant endeavour and a great linking factor of all attorneys that are part of the worldwide OGC team – to make it matter!

Tell us more about the HP India OGC Internship Program. How can one apply for an internship at HP? What qualities do they look for in an intern?

Our internship program is yet another extended arm of our Talent Factory initiative. Very few would disagree when I say that most internships that we have experienced only use our existing skillset and one cannot always claim to have learnt a new skillset with which you can walk away upon completion of the internship.

While designing our 4 week internship program we made a conscious effort to ensure that the intern is able to walk out with a completely new skillset acquired during the internship. We have created a detailed training-cum-working program where a lot of emphasis is laid on first training the intern around the work we do through a dedicated mentor assigned to each of the interns. Virtual classroom sessions are taken up by our attorneys from different locations on designated fields of our operation (IT Contracts, compliance programs, Privacy, IPR, Corporate, Consumer laws, etc.). Primary emphasis is laid in educating the interns of our contracting process, stakeholders involved, our preferred contractual positions and their rationale, etc.

If it were left to me, I would term it nothing short of a seminar course on Applied IT Contracting!

We currently have two slots each year – Jan/Feb and June/July; and we accommodate a maximum of two interns per slot. We reach out to select colleges thru their respective placement committees in order to carry out the application process.

Applicants are evaluated on the basis of their – Covering Letters + CV followed by a Telephonic Interview (for shortlisted applicants) and their response to a sample query. At all stages, the applicants are assessed on their clarity of thought and simplicity of expression.

Lastly, what would be your message to our readers who are mainly young lawyers and law students?

Student life, especially to law students, offers certain learning opportunities which are available only when we are still a student. There is no way we can go back and catch that bus. So do ensure that you work out your priorities and avail them so as to have minimal regrets later on.

To the young lawyers – it is always an added advantage if you are able to think beyond the black and white letters and are able to apply your own judgement. This will require an understanding of the commercial and business implications of your advice which can be acquired only with your conscious effort. A plain legalese advice is no advice if it cannot reap tangible benefits or cannot be understood by the client.
August 6, 2015
Sudhir Mishra, Founder & Managing Partner, Trust Legal, on building an illustrious career in Environmental Law
Sudhir Mishra completed his graduation in History from Deshbandhu College, Delhi University. Thereafter in 1998, he finished his degree in Law from Campus Law Centre, Delhi University. Soon after graduation, he started his own law firm, Trust Legal, which specialises in environmental, health, financial services, securitisation, banking, oil and gas law practice, as well as alternative dispute resolution.

In this interview, he speaks about:
- Choosing a niche area such as Environment Law for specialisation
- Starting his own full service law firm right after graduation
- His most memorable transactions in Environment and Corporate Law
How would you introduce yourself to our readers, who are young and aspiring lawyers?

I am a first generation lawyer who was always very sure about one thing – that I will not join any law firm, but will start on my own. It was in the year 1998, when I plunged into the legal profession with all my belief, that one day this country will take note of me.

What made you decide to have a career in law?

I did not decide – it happened by accident and destiny. I was interviewed for IAS in 1998 and failed to clear it, and then was forced to a large extent by my father, who was a serving IAS officer, to take law as a career.

What made you decide to become an independent legal professional, rather than joining a senior lawyer or law firm at the beginning of your career?

As in 1998 there were very few law firms and I was already twenty eight (28) years of age, I had a lot of reluctance in undertaking prolonged training and working as a junior in a law office. I had great interest in environmental issues, and during my training with Ms. Pinki Anand, Senior Advocate and now Additional Solicitor General (ASG), I was very confident about kick starting my own practice, rather than being part of somebody else’s setup. I took everyday as a challenge, setup a small office at home and started visiting NGOs working in the field of Environmental Law. Somehow, there was a deep feeling inside me that I will succeed as a lawyer, which propelled and fuelled my ambition of being on my own. In three years’ time, by 2001, I was retained by close to five National and International NGO’s and was also working for Government Undertakings and lot of private companies. It was a time of excitement, uncertainty and thrill, and I loved every moment of it.

What made you choose Environmental Law? Please tell us your experiences that made you focus your practice in environmental law.

I was attracted to Environmental Law because there were very few lawyers involved in this field, and I had a great liking for environmental issues, most specifically Wildlife and Conservation.

Please tell us about the most memorable environmental law petitions you have litigated on.

The two most important petitions which I followed and argued on Environmental Law have been:
1. Stopping the road which was passing through the Jim Corbett Tiger Reserve, before the Supreme Court, and
2. Stopping a wet land (World Bank Drainage) project, for the protection of Sarus Cranes, before the Allahabad High Court.
Also, what have been your most memorable environmental law transactions on the corporate side?

My most memorable environmental law transaction on the corporate side has been in helping the largest FDI in a tourism project for setting up a Ski Village in Manali (Himachal Pradesh), wherein I managed the Environment Impact Assessment (EIA), Environmental Clearance issues (EC) and Environmental Management Plans, by engaging with The Energy and Resources Institute (TERI) and Indian Institute of Forest Management (IIFM).

What did you find appealing about working on your own?

It’s like being a daily wage earner, who is a master of his own fate. Life is so uncertain that securing a career and a settled and a protected life is too boring.

From an independent legal practice to forming and running the boutique law firm Trust Legal – how challenging was your journey?

I was left with little options, since the country had been acknowledging me as a prolific Environmental lawyer by 2003-2004. Infact, I went for the International Visitors Leadership Programme (IVLP 2005) organised by the US Government, owing to my pioneer work in Environmental Law in India. However, big commercial success was more a need and necessity for social recognition. I was married in 1999 to Mamta Tiwari, who became a Partner in Fox Mandal in the year 2001, and was regularly being voted amongst the top 20 Dispute Resolution Lawyers in Chambers & Partners, Legal 500, etc.

Comparisons started to happen, and it was very important for me to ensure that environmental law would pay just as well. We created the firm Trust Legal with that philosophy, and today we are the leading law firm representing all kinds of companies in India and abroad on Environment and Health law practice. Infact, Healthcare has become a bigger and major practice area of the firm, with Trust Legal representing more than 30 hospital groups across the country in litigation and corporate advisory. The firm is also very active in the field of Real Estate & Infrastructure, Oil and Gas and Banking & Finance law practice.

What is your role as the Managing Partner of Trust Legal? What are the challenging and stressful aspects of managing and running a firm?

As the Managing Partner of the firm, I encourage my team to think as entrepreneurs. My job is to ensure that the business of the firm is moving in the positive direction, salaries are paid on time, talented people are encouraged, along with ensuring the emotional and physical well-being of lawyers. There is nothing stressful in managing a law firm as a lead Partner, since your entire day is filled with excitement, and a sense of purpose and duty.

What do you want to say to the next generation lawyers? Which are the growing areas of law where a new law student or young lawyer can focus and distinguish himself/ herself?

I suggest that each lawyer should follow his/her own dreams, by assessing his/her own interest area, and then working accordingly. I believe that apart from environment; health, infrastructure, commercial litigation will also be new big areas to focus on.

Tell us about your early education, your place of graduation, your place for learning law and your experiences during student years.

My early education was in a place called Siwan in Bihar, where most of my classes upto class 10th were conducted under a tree, as the school building was very depleted. I did my 10+2 from an even smaller town called Bankain Bihar, where my father was posted, and then I moved to Delhi University. I did my graduation from Deshbandhu College in History, and Law from Campus Law Centre, Delhi University. Most of my education upto class 12th was supervised by my father at home, who used to teach me personally, and there was a great emphasis on reading newspapers, books, autobiography and magazines from a very early age of my life. In my college and law school, my personality was greatly decided and shaped by my friends who all are well accomplished in their respective careers.

Whom are you influenced by? Who is your role model?

I am influenced by my father S.K. Misra (Ex IAS officer Bihar Cadre) and my role model is my cousin sister Sonal Mishra (IAS officer Gujarat Cadre). My father taught me that with confidence and integrity, anything is achievable. My sister Sonal taught me the spirit of hard work, determination and aiming very high. Her success in IAS in 1997 fuelled in me a desire to make a very big career in law.

These days, most young law students look towards corporate law. What is your take on that?

As I said earlier, one should not go by what everybody else is doing – the idea is to create your own destiny, your own line, your own fate, your own league. One should follow one’s instincts and never settle for something ordinary, or for quick returns. One should remember that it’s a long life and success should remain a guiding factor in your fifties and sixties, so the decision which you take in your twenties should not ruin your old age.

What do you see as the future of legal profession? What message would you give to young law students and recent law graduates?

The future of legal profession is superb, and is undergoing a silent revolution. Hundreds of more law firms will come to cater to increased economic activity within the country.

My message to young law graduates is to create something new and long-lasting.
August 5, 2015