Aditya Gupta is an intellectual property litigator and currently works as a Senior Associate at Anand and Anand. He graduated from NLU, Jodhpur in 2010 and is a gold medallist. He has been a recipient of the prestigious Microsoft Intellectual Property Rights Scholarship, 2009.
Soon after graduation, he started working as an Associate at Anand and Anand and after three years of works, he joined Harvard Law School to pursue Masters in Intellectual Property Rights.
While at Harvard, he worked as a Research Associate to Professor William W. Fisher III for a period of six months. After coming back to India, he again joined Anand and Anand but this time as a Senior Associate. He has also been a Visiting Faculty at National Law University, Delhi for a semester and taught a seminar course on Practicing IP law’ to students pursuing undergraduate degree in law.
In this interview, he talks about:
His decision to chose NLU, Jodhpur
His experience of working with Anand and Anand
His days at Harvard Law School and LL.M experience in IPR
The skills of an Intellectual Property lawyer
How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers who are mainly law students and lawyers?
I am a litigator with a keen interest in intellectual property law and new ventures. I am currently working as a Senior Associate at Anand and Anand.
When and how did you decide to study law? How did you settle for NLU, Jodhpur?
My decision to study law was not a planned one. I was preparing for pre-medical examinations till late into my XII standard when I suddenly realized that I did not want to be a doctor. For one, I did not have the patience to study for twelve years! Anyhow, purely on instinct and gut feeling, I decided to pursue legal studies. It was decision fraught with risk, especially since I am a first – generation lawyer. As I was quite late into the application process, I only applied for NLU, Jodhpur, NALSAR, NLS and Amity Law School. NLU, Jodhpur was the highest ranked law school that I could get through and that’s why I settled for it!
After graduating from NLUJ, you joined Anand and Anand as an Associate. How did the appointment take place? What comprised your work at Anand and Anand?
I had interned twice at Anand and Anand during my third year and had received positive feedback. In my fifth year, I applied for a job at the firm through the HR department. I was called for a personal interview with the Head of Department and a few days later I was told that I had been selected. Since I was in the litigation department, during my first two – three years, a lot of my work comprised of drafting court documents, research work and assisting seniors within the firm and Senior Advocates during arguments in Court. I was particularly lucky to work on some high-profile cases with very high stakes which exposed me nascent and as yet undeveloped areas of law.
How difficult were the first few months of Anand and Anand given that it focuses mainly on a specific field of law?
I did not find the initiation period very difficult since I had taken a keen interest in IPR ever since third year of college and had interned at IP firms, took courses related to IP at NLUJ and written papers on intellectual property. The quantum leap that one takes after joining the profession is not on substantive law but the way the Courts function and the realization that substantive law is a tiny (though of course important) part of legal practice. Thus while I felt reasonably confident of my ability to handle areas of substantive IP law, I did find that the practice in Courts requires skills in addition to reading and understanding the law, which students are not exposed during law school.
You have specialized in IPR. What made you interested in the same?
Innovation and creativity are, in my view, the two most awe–inspiring facets of human life. While intellectual property litigation may appear to be a battle between large corporations it is, at its heart, about protection of the innovative/ creative genius of an individual. That intellectual property law endeavours to foster this genius generated my interest in the subject and practicing this field of law for the past three years has only fuelled my passion for it.
Thereafter you went on to pursue Masters in Intellectual Property law from Harvard Law School. Was it a professional requirement to enhance more in your career?
I had decided that I will pursue a master’s degree in law during my undergraduate studies itself. I wanted to be exposed to the pedagogic methodologies in foreign universities and always dreamed of being taught by the top professors in the world. Once I chose IPR as my career choice, it made even more sense for me to pursue a master’s degree since IPR in India borrows several concepts from IPR across the world.
The experience at Harvard was everything that I had imagined and much more – libraries providing access to nearly every book in the world, the opportunity to interact with world-class professors who know their subject (and much more) inside out and forming bonds with students from over 60 countries – I think it helped me broaden my horizons both as an individual and a professional.
While at Harvard, you worked as a Research Associate to Professor William W. Fisher III. What kind of work you were entrusted with?
I worked with Professor Fisher on a specific project that pertained to a multi-jurisdictional analysis on the role that intellectual property law plays in the fashion industry from a policy perspective. Since the project is ongoing, I would not like to discuss much about its details.
After coming back to India, you rejoined Anand and Anand, and this time as a Senior Associate. What does it take to be appointed as a Senior Associate?
The firm pre-defines the expectations from members at a particular designation level and consistent performance across various metrics is assessed by the management before taking the decision on whether to promote an ‘Associate’ to a ‘Senior Associate’. Unlike many other firms, the number of years in the firm is not the only criteria and other factors such as interpersonal skills and ability to handle pressure are equally important in determining one’s progress in the firm.
What are the primary essentials of an IPR lawyer? How do you say a fresh graduate can work on building these skills?
I think keeping abreast with the latest case-law is absolutely critical for practicing IPR. Unlike many other areas of the law, IPR is fast-developing and Courts are exploring new doctrinal areas on a very frequent basis. An Intellectual Property lawyer must also understand the space IP enjoys within a particular company – for instance, IP may form the core of the business for a music production company but it may not be so for an e-commerce company (though of course most e-commerce companies also rely heavily on their brand valuation). It is becoming increasingly important for lawyers to appreciate the business of their clients and clients appreciate lawyers who act as facilitators of their business rather than merely providing a legal opinion.
Since IPR is a technical subject, it is also important for fresh graduates to understand the basics so that they are able to communicate with their clients in a language which they can understand – without legalese.
Tell us a bit about work culture at Anand and Anand and the life of a Senior Associate. What is your current work profile like? Please tell us about the responsibilities you are entrusted with.
The work culture at Anand and Anand is very excellent – it not only fosters free and independent thinking but in fact rewards people with fresh and creative ideas. The firm is ambitious and one is driven by this constant desire to deliver a world-class work product. Though the learning curve is very steep, the senior members of the firm are supportive and they help you grow as a lawyer.
My current work profile involves developing litigation strategy, interacting with clients on a daily basis, arguing matters in Court and assisting others in arguing matters and client management and development.
What has been your strategy to deal with errors and mistakes? How would you suggest a young associate to deal with them?
I believe that errors and mistakes are a part and parcel of providing any service. Mistakes happen and while one should not keep moping about them, it is important not to have a lackadaisical approach. It is absolutely critical that you learn from each error/ mistake and not to repeat them.
People often complain about the highly skewed work-life balance at the top law firms. What is your usual workday like?
I am still figuring this one out! For me, I enjoy my work a lot and I do not recall the last time I woke up in the morning and did not want to go to work.
Naina Pachnanda graduated from NUJS in 2014. Her internship experiences with Hon’ble Mr. Justice Rajiv Sahai Endlaw, Mr.Sidharth Luthra and Luthra & Luthra Law Offices, were most instrumental in strengthening her interest in litigation. At present she is working with an Additional Solicitor General in Supreme Court of India, Mr. P. S. Patwalia. Her LL.M application to University College of London was duly accepted, but she chose to not go for it at the moment and instead garner more work experience.
In this interview we talk about –
She graduated from WBNUJS and her internship experiences from various places in India.
Working as an Associate Editor of Indian Law Journal.
Declining an LL.M opportunity from University College of London.
Working with Mr. P.S. Patwalia, an Additional Solicitor General of Supreme Court of India.
How would you introduce yourself to our readers who are mainly young and enthusiastic lawyers?
I completed my law from the National University of Juridical Sciences (NUJS), Kolkata, (2009-2014). Having graduated only last year, I have the same aims and aspirations as all of you and I to strive to do better always and every time. Having developed an interest in litigation over the past five years, I am now practising under a Senior Advocate, Mr. P.S. Patwalia, who is currently an Additional Solicitor General in the Supreme Court of India.
How would you describe your pre-college life as well as educational background? Do you have lawyers in your family who motivated you to pursue a career in law?
Being an IPS Officer’s daughter, I had the opportunity to visit several cities and be educated in different schools during my childhood. I ultimately completed my schooling from Delhi Public School, R.K.Puram, where I had a very balanced student life, with the right proportion of studies and sports. During my childhood, I had the opportunity to represent my respective schools in squash, tennis, swimming and basketball. This apart I spent a great deal of my time playing the piano and gave examinations of the Associated Boards of the Royal School of Music, London.
As far as my decision to choose law as a career is concerned, my father, who is a lawyer by profession, and used to practise as an advocate in the Punjab & Haryana High Court, and my brother, who is currently a practising advocate at the Supreme Court of India, have been my inspiration behind having chosen this profession.
What inclined you towards the field of legal education? Do you reckon any specific incident that made you choose law as a career?
My brother was a law student, at the Gujarat National Law University (GNLU), at the time when I decided to sit for the Common Law Admission Test. I was greatly enchanted by the moot court competitions and conferences that he would tell me about during his stay at law school. I was also inspired by discussions with my father who used to be a lawyer at one time. Being in the police, he used to discuss various issues regarding trials and investigations and the criminal justice system, which imbibed my interest in criminal law, from the time when I was in school.
Tell us about your law school life, how instrumental was NUJS in shaping up your legal career? How well do you think your education at NUJS prepared you for real world practice of law?
I owe the person I am today, entirely to NUJS. I went in as a young girl and five years hence I came out as a strong, independent and learned woman. Today when people ask me whether to choose between a national law school and a private institution for law, I always advise them to choose a national law school, because, if given an opportunity, being in a national law school has its own charm. The competition between the students is very motivating and inspires one to do better and work to one’s fullest capacity. The kind of hard work I put in at NUJS, be it in terms of preparing for exams, or even researching for projects and tutorials, has always taught me something different. Moreover, interactions with professors, some of whom have also been educated from the best universities in the world, and other legal luminaries who visited NUJS for guest lectures and workshops, also widened my horizon about legal education. Being at NUJS has not only groomed me to be more confident but has also instilled a sense of responsibility and perseverance in me.
Tell us about your internships in law firms across India, at the High Court of Delhi and the Supreme Court. How would you recommend students to go about choosing their internships?
My first internship was an NGO based internship, at the Human Rights Law Network (HRLN), under Mr. Colin Gonsalves. I got a chance here, to impart free legal advice to the poor and the underprivileged. This made me embark on the IDIA project (Increasing Diversity by Increasing Legal Access) as an active member, during my latter years at NUJS.
Thereafter, I interned with Dua Associates, a premiere law firm in India, where I researched on issues relating to anti terrorism laws, due to my interest in the field of human rights that developed during my earlier internship at HRLN.
Discussions with my father, over trials and investigations regarding the criminal justice system, increased my interest in criminal law. This interest developed further when I interned under Mr. Sidharth Luthra ( Senior Advocate, Supreme Court of India), wherein I had the privilege of assisting him in the curative petition that was filed by the Central Bureau of Investigation in the famous Bhopal Gas Tragedy Case of 1984 which is, to date, regarded as the world’s worst industrial disaster. I not only received a feeling of self satisfaction when the judgment was declared in our favour, but there was also a sense of achievement of having been a part of the proceedings of such a landmark case.
I also keenly observed the art of court craft by witnessing various trial court proceedings and the cross examination of some of the witnesses in the famous 2G Spectrum case, where there was allocation of 2G Spectrum by the Government to various telecom providers; during my internship with Luthra & Luthra Law Offices, another premiere law firm in India. My brief stint with Amarchand Mangaldas & Suresh A Shroff & Co., gave me an exposure to arbitration, where I assisted them in matters involving commercial arbitration. Subsequently, I interned with Hon’ble Mr. Justice Rajiv Sahai Endlaw of the Delhi High Court. This internship provided me with an invaluable insight into judicial decision-making, which enabled me to enhance my research and oratory skills which are essential for a litigating lawyer.
In fact, my internship experiences with Hon’ble Mr. Justice Rajiv Sahai Endlaw, Mr.Sidharth Luthra and Luthra & Luthra Law Offices, were most instrumental in strengthening my interest in litigation.
In my opinion, law students should utilise their internships to endure different areas of law, which will make them aware of the particular field of law they are interested in; and ultimately lead them to pursue their goals.
You have presented papers at various law conferences and authored articles in several publications. Please share with our readers your experience.
Right from my first year of law school, I assisted my brother Vikrant Pachnanda, in editing articles and interviewing various legal academicians and lawyers, for the India Law Journal (ILJ), a global law journal, which was started by him, while he was a second year law student at GNLU. This imbibed in me a sense of knowledge about article writing, which is essential for a student, in any field. It also taught me how to examine legal issues and how to edit the lengthiest and most complex legal articles. This further enhanced my skills of writing and editing papers for publication and presentation at various conferences. Editing, writing and presenting papers instilled a great amount of confidence in me and improved my research and public speaking skills, which are very important for any and every law student.
My suggestion is that law students should make full and appropriate use of their time at law school, in terms of getting involved in writing articles for publication; essay writing competitions; paper presentations and other activities that will not only help them be proficient in their ability to research meticulously on various case laws and current legal issues, but also help them to be fluent and confident in speechmaking.
Please tell us a bit about India Law Journal. What are the basic constituents of an issue? Which skills do you get to hone being an Associate Editor of such a journal?
I am an Associate Editor of India Law Journal (ILJ) which is a global law journal (www.indialawjournal.com) and provides a forum for generating a cross current of ideas on emerging topical issues. India Law Journal features articles and interviews of several leading lawyers and academicians in the legal fraternity from different parts of the world and finds its place in several law libraries such as the Peace Palace Library at the International Court of Justice and the Indian Society of International Law. India Law Journal has also partnered with international organizations such as the American Bar Association, Kluwer Law International and Lexis Nexis, amongst others as a Media Partner in many international law conferences. Serving as an Associate Editor of India Law Journal has provided me with the opportunity to research on various current issues while editing articles, writing book reviews for the journal, analyzing legal issues and interviewing legal luminaries.
Please share with us your work experience with Mr. Paramjit Patwalia. What are the skills you bank upon at work?
I am very fortunate to be working under Mr. Paramjit Singh Patwalia. He is a very good senior to work under as he encourages his juniors to learn and perform to their fullest. He also guides us and instils in us, the desire to learn, improve and excel. The research and oratory skills that I gathered through my five years at NUJS including various internships, paper presentations and paper publications, have extensively helped me assist him in researching on various case laws and briefing him on several propositions of law.
What do you think clicked in your favour for your application at UCL?
(Naina had applied for admission to University College of London. She chose not to pursue her LL.M thereaftr even when her application was successfully accepted.)
Apart from academics, I was involved in a lot of extra circular activities during law school, such as writing papers for publication, presenting papers at legal conferences; editing articles, book reviews and interviewing legal luminaries for the India Law Journal (ILJ).
I was also involved in the IDIA project during law school, wherein I mentored Ms. Karthika Annamalai, through her first two years, in her academic work and overall well being. Furthermore, I represented NUJS in tennis at our sports festival, Invicta. Thus, I would say, this balance of academics and extracurricular activities during law school, coupled with my internships, worked in my favour, to secure admission at UCL.
As far as applying for admission is concerned, in my opinion, it is important to first decide on the subjects that you wish to further delve into after law school and short list universities across the globe, in accordance with the same. Thereafter, it is essential to meticulously read all guidelines and information regarding the course modules that you wish to study, in the shortlisted universities, on their respective websites. After reading this thoroughly, write your statement of purpose on the basis of this information coupled with the particulars provided in your cv, i.e. your academic and non academic achievements. It is further imperative to maintain a good rapport with college professors, have insightful discussions with them and seek their help regarding the letters of recommendation. Getting all the documents from law school, as per the requirement of the universities is the next step. I admit, applying for LL.M, is a strenuous procedure, and requires a lot of patience and hard work but where there is a will, there is a way, and the ultimate result will be worth the time and effort put in.
Do you have any plans to pursue higher education in the future? What are your future plans?
It was always my desire to pursue higher studies, straight after law school. Therefore, I applied to a few universities in the United Kingdom and secured admission in University College London (UCL) for an LL.M for the academic year 2014 to 2015. Despite UCL being a highly reputed university, I decided to garner sufficient work experience before pursuing my LL.M degree in order to make the most of it in terms of being an enriching and intellectually stimulating experience. I am happy with my decision as I have not only gained a vast amount of knowledge and expertise, in the last couple of months but have also begun to grasp the understanding of the practical aspect of law, which is imperative for a litigating lawyer.
Is there any message you would like to share with our readers?
It is important to pinpoint the field of law that you are interested in. It could be corporate law, litigation or even academics or law and policy making. No matter which field you pursue, it is necessary to work hard since there is no substitute to hard work. One should also give back to society by helping the poor and needy by engaging in pro bono work.
Jai Dehadrai graduated from ILS Pune in 2011, worked as an associate in Karanjawala & Co., got a joint masters from University of Pennsylvania Law School and Wharton University, worked at Kline & Specter Law Firm in the US, came back to India and joined the chamber of Justice S.A. Bobde as a judicial Clerk. Currently he is working as a legal consultant for the Times Group.
Most amazingly he also published a book “Aequabilis” and writes under the name “The Irreverent Lawyer” in the Times of India.
In this interview he talks about
Law school experience from ILS, Pune
Post Graduation from UPenn Law and Wharton University
Work at Karanjawala & Co., Kline & Specter Law Firm and Chambers of Justice Bobde
Current work as a legal consultant in the Times Group
Writing columns under the name of The Irreverent Lawyer
How would you introduce yourself? What motivated you to pursue a career in law?
My family is from a small town near Nagpur, called Dehad. My parents shifted to Delhi in the early 80’s, where my elder sister and I were born. We were both admitted to Delhi Public School – where my sister was hailed as a model student, and I was declared a serial offender.
I was a very naughty student in school and loved playing pranks. Although I was academically bright, my gang of friends and I would invariably get into trouble with our headmistress, Mrs. Raghavan – in whose office we practiced the fine art of talking our way out of trouble! This was probably my first brush with a tough but fair judge. My teachers encouraged me to pursue competitive debating and in the process I fell in love with the challenge of combining words with reason to change someone’s mind.
But it didn’t always work, and I learnt the hard way. We once organised a charity football match and raised a lot of money for the victims of the Tsunami, but without seeking permission from our principal. When she found out about our little ‘match’, she threatened to suspend us for a week. We tried desperately to reason and argue, which soon turned to begging and pleading!
Very similar to a Monday and Friday in the Supreme Court. Nothing worked and eventually our parents were called to school. I was nominated to speak on behalf of my friends, and I successfully bargained for a lenient punishment.
However, our vice principal, Dr. Saini, realized that the best way to deal with us was to give us the opportunity to debate competitively in a courtroom environment. Taking the cue, my partner in crime and classmate Vikrant Pachnanda and I got together to create the first ever moot court society in an Indian school. We organised several moots and had a whale of a time.
It was then that I knew, the law was going to be my calling in life and have never looked back ever since.
How was your experience at I.L.S Law College, Pune? What were your hobbies during your tenure in law school?
Studying at ILS Pune, or ‘Law College’ as it is fondly called was a fabulous experience. The campus is easily one of the most idyllic places to study law– thus aptly called the Oxford of the East. Students at ILS are from different parts of India. It has a cosmopolitan crowd. There is healthy competition – no one will try and jeopardize your work to gain an edge. Some of the sharpest minds at ILS were also the most humble. The student body was very nurturing in that sense.
The college is also blessed with some very committed professors. Right from the doyen of Contract and Civil Law, Mrs. Neelima Bhadbhade to the renowned scholar in Feminist Jurisprudence, Ms. Jaya Sagade. Mr. Ajit Kulkarni had has a roaring practice but yet chose to teach part-time. I can never forget how his lectures on drafting were even attended by practicing lawyers!
In the evenings, my friends and I would play football occasionally (they were far more talented than I could ever hope to be!) or we would go for a swim to beat the heat (ILS has its own pool, which is also built in the midst of a forest). The ILS Canteen was another favourite spot to catch up on the latest campus gossip.
Share with our readers a few actionable tips on managing high grades.
(Jai was one of the most exceptional students at ILS Law College. He had graduated with a first division and achieved highest marks in Interpretation of Statutes, Arbitration and Constitutional Law.)
I think it is really important to be intensely passionate about one’s field – excellence follows automatically. This is a really clichéd phrase but also the truth. My approach in college was to pursue as many moot courts, debates and research articles as possible, especially in the subjects that interested me. I found that it was easier and certainly a lot more fun, to learn about a subject by preparing for a competitive ‘argument’, rather than robotically mugging answers for a predictable university-pattern examination. There’s not much of a challenge in the latter.
Besides, ILS is not an autonomous institution. Thus, the marking is not internal and neither does one receive credit for papers/projects – as is the case in National Law Schools. Making notes, a list of cases and managing time is essential if you want to avoid the stress of deadlines while performing brilliantly.
You have been a mooter through your law school life, what is your take on mooting?
Mooting, was without a doubt my favourite activity at law school. It was the closest thing we had to a courtroom! Unfortunately, some students avoid mooting – for a variety of reasons. Some have stage fright, some consider it a waste of their time and while others believe it is of no utility to their intended line of corporate work. Sadly, they ignore the immense intellectual benefits that a challenging mooting experience can provide. The intellectual gymnastics involved in simultaneously dealing with a tough set of judges and a cut-throat competitor who is waiting to grill you, can get the adrenaline rushing like nothing else. Mooting also forces you to think ‘legally,’ as opposed to studying a statute or case in isolation, as one normally does in a classroom. In a moot, you must apply the law to a given set of facts, build a crisp argument which can stand up against criticism. It also forces you to think on your feet – which rarely happens in our non-Socratic classrooms.
My approach was to treat every opportunity to argue in a moot as ‘consequence-free practice.’ Besides, mooting is so much more than the mere act of submitting a coherent argument before judges. The discipline involved in preparing for a moot court competition tests your commitment for work, to your teammates and most importantly it gives you a glimpse of how gruelling and unforgiving adversarial litigation can really be.
My advice to budding mooters is to grab every opportunity to prepare a well-constructed argument. Never worry about the consequences – if you win, it’s a bonus. Else, it’s just practice for the next case.
Besides, when else are you going to argue a case without a client!
What skills did you get to hone as the President of Debating Society?
Our faculty in charge for the DebSoc, was a very encouraging professor, Mrs. Shobhana Patil. She appointed me the coordinator of the debating society quite by accident. I would meet her often to complain that ILS did not have its own debating competition to hone talent internally. She asked me to stop complaining and to do something about it. Perhaps she also felt it was time that I moved on from debating to organizing debates!
With a phenomenal team of friends, we conceptualised and established, the 1st ever Justice V.M. Tarkunde Memorial Debating Championship in 2010-11. I had interned a few times with Karanjawala and Co. in Delhi, and thus requested Mr. Raian Karanjawala to sponsor the tournament – which he very generously agreed to do. Thanks to his generosity, ILS proudly hosts a very successful parliamentary debating championship every year now.
Hosting any event teaches you many things – like working in a team, building consensus and ultimately surmounting institutional challenges. Most importantly, we had a blast interacting with all the different participants and training the freshers. At one point we even considered inviting a very controversial Maharashtra politician to judge our debate – a request which was politely denied by our principal!
What kind of internships have you done in your five years of law school?
I worked with different firms – to get a flavour of different kinds of work and also to see firm culture first hand. In my first year I worked with Dua Associates in their corporate team. Thereafter, I did a stint with Hemant Sahai and then Karanjawala & Co. I enjoyed the litigation work at Karanjawala& Co. the best, since they had the largest volume of high quality work. In my 4th year, I did a semester long internship with a subsidiary company of Tata Motors – which was also a very rewarding experience.
You managed to make a presentation to Mr. Ratan Tata personally in 2010 while interning for Tata Motors legal department. Tell us about your experience.
As part of my internship with the Tata Motors Subsidiary Company, I was required to conduct a legal audit of that particular unit. I discovered some regulatory anomalies, which I felt were not properly addressed by the management. Dissatisfied with their response, I wrote to Mr. Tata bringing this information to his attention. To my utter surprise, I heard back from his office a few weeks later informing me that he wanted to see me and hear about my findings first hand. The Tata’s flew me into Mumbai and I had an hour-long interaction with Mr. Tata in his corner office at Bombay House. I was enamoured by his humility and his insistence on the highest ethical standards for all his group companies – big or small. He assured me that he would address all of my concerns.
Before going for LL.M , you worked as an Associate at Karanjawala & Co in their criminal law team . How did your appointment at Karanjawala & Co. take place?
My appointment at Karanjawala & Co. was sheer luck. I had interned with the firm twice before, and upon graduating I requested Mr. Karanjawala to give me a job, which he very generously did. He is known to have a big heart! I worked for the first six months in the corporate team and then in the criminal team – I had the good fortune of exploring different aspects of the law, right from mining and electricity matters to the more sensational BMW and Arushi Talwar cases.
I was a part of the team that briefed Mr. Ram Jethmalani for Mr. Nanda’s appeal in the Supreme Court. Although I was the junior most member of the team at the time, my seniors Mr. Sandeep Kapur and Mr. Ravi Sharma gave me ample opportunities to participate in the conferences with Mr. Jethmalani. It is certainly an overwhelming experience to be in the same room as Mr. Jethmalani – his command over the law and his piercing wit are great fun for any young lawyer to observe. I remember distinctly how meticulous and thorough he was during our conferences – with meetings at his Akbar Road chamber often stretching into the wee hours of the morning prior to the hearing. But no one complained.
When the arguments commenced in Mr. Nanda’s case in the Supreme Court, I watched in awe Mr. Jethmalani pieced together all of the material he had absorbed in the preceding days, masterfully connecting the pieces of the puzzle to form a simple yet lethal argument. His ability to interpret the criminal code while unravelling the safeguards inherent in constitutional provisions is simply unsurpassed.
Mr. Karanjawala had very generously agreed to represent the parents of the slain teenager Arushi Talwar without any cost – pro bono. I was lucky in that I was able to assist my senior, Shivek, during various stages of the case in the Supreme Court. It is well known now that the Hon’ble Court did not see any merit in the applications filed before them seeking relief for the parents. But I learnt that responsible advocacy requires vigorous representation to protect your client’s interests. I certainly still believe in the parent’s innocence and perhaps in time their names will get cleared.
Working with a large litigation firm has many advantages. If the firm enjoys a good reputation, it attracts many high profile clients who expect the best quality of work. Mr. Karanjawala runs a meticulous office, and yet the environment of the firm is not stifling or overbearing. Juniors are given many opportunities to get involved in matters and interact directly with clients and Senior Advocates. Since the stakes are high, the pressure to perform tends to be higher.
When did you decide to pursue higher studies? What was your motivation?
I think lawyers must never cease to study – rather, it would be anathema to their professional success if they did so. While ILS was an excellent place to develop a fundamental understanding of the law, I craved a more challenging intellectual environment.
Abroad, the methodology of teaching is very different. Students are expected to be very well prepared before they show up for class. Professors challenge students by employing the Socratic method of teaching, which involves intense class participation. These were novelties for me, since I had only been exposed to a traditional lecture based system of education – as most of us have. My prime motivation for studying abroad was the exposure to a world-class legal education, which I was very fortunate to receive at UPenn.
Besides, I think effective lawyers must keep honing their critical thinking skills. Learning a statute and reproducing answers during a predictable exam might not be the best way of training lawyers. My advice to students contemplating an LL.M. would be to go for it, undoubtedly.
Tell us more about this Joint Master’s Degree from UPenn Law school and Wharton University.
UPenn, like some of the other Ivy League universities in the US, encourages inter-disciplinary course selection. Thus the advantage of being at Penn Law is its proximity and association with Wharton – which is a premier business school. As part of the LL.M., one is permitted to take regular courses at the business school as well – with MBA students. It is truly the best of both worlds – with course credit on one’s transcript from both schools – law and business.
I took a very interesting course on corporate diplomacy, with a Harvard trained Professor, Dr. Sanjay Patnaik. The course covered corporate strategy employed by leading multi-national firms during times of crisis. We interacted with top industry leaders and even leading politicians from the European Union who explained the intricacies of doing business in a complex regulatory environment. Besides this course, Wharton offers a gamut of options ranging from traditional corporate finance to more complex courses on business management. In addition to this, both the law school and Wharton conduct numerous talks and presentations by business and political leaders from across the world.
The exposure is simply mind-boggling – and the result is that one’s worldview is significantly impacted.
What was your topic of dissertation for Masters? Why did you choose that subject for research?
Most graduate programmes in US law schools offer a general LL.M., with a wide array of courses to specialise within the Masters programme. My areas of focus were advanced Corporate Law with M&A and US Anti Trust in the first semester. In the second semester I took litigation and drafting courses – such as Appellate Advocacy and Trial Advocacy.
The great thing about this approach is that it allows the student to customise their learning experience. I wanted a blend of corporate law and US style litigation – which is exactly what I got.
Tell us about your experience working with an eminent personality like Professor Raymond Ripple.
(Jai was the only LL.M student to have been accepted in Professor Raymond Ripple’s class on Appellate Advocacy, where he also received the highest grade.)
Yes! His were one of the best classes I took at Penn Law. Professor Raymond Ripple is actually a full-time senior counsel for a major US Conglomerate, DuPont. He taught as the adjunct professor for appellate advocacy and took only about 9-12 students for his class. I was very fortunate to have been accepted by him.
Professor Ripple taught an intense course about how to draft a high-quality federal court brief. He was very particular about the style, structure and content of the final product. One component of the final examination required us to argue before judges, exactly the same it would happen in a real federal court system. The argument was then recorded and Professor Ripple gave systematic feedback to each student about how to improve his or her presentation and strategy. As someone who is passionate about litigation, it was an enriching experience.
Which events led to your induction into Kline &Specter Law Firm? Were there any interviews or selection processes?
Upon graduating from Penn Law, I applied like everyone else to different law firms. I was very pleasantly surprised when I heard back from Kline &Specter, since it was my first choice. The email came when I was celebrating my graduation with my classmates in Miami – so we had two reasons to celebrate. They called me in for an interview with a Senior Partner, who later became my boss. We spoke about my past experience and also my interest for the specialised nature of work at K&S – pharmaceutical mass torts. Yes, incidentally, I was also the first foreign trained lawyer to have been accepted at the firm – but I owe that to the magnanimity of the founding partners who decided to take a chance with me.
How was it like working in a foreign law firm? How different was the work environment in the USA, from that in India?
American firms – much like top-tier Indian law offices, are very professional and manage their time well. There is a clear expectation for high quality work – which is recognised and duly rewarded. The routine at Kline &Specter was very comfortable and hours stretched only when there was a deadline or a key deposition coming up. The work environment was friendly and supportive. Watching Mr. Specter argue before a full bench of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court (9 judges) was an excellent experience. Top trial lawyers in the US prepare meticulously for their cases – a trait I saw in Mr. Jethmalani in India too.
Our readers would like to know about the whole case which you were involved with your partner. Please share few words about your experience.
(Jai has worked in the pharmaceutical mass torts division with the firm’s partner, Mr. Lee Balefsky, on a multi district litigation (MDL) involving a billion dollar law suit against Johnson & Johnson and American Medical Systems for manufacturing faulty pelvic implants.)
Kline &Specter is one of the top litigation firms on the US East Coast for complex pharmaceutical mass tort cases. They have built a reputation for pursuing meritorious cases in a fair manner – they are not after easy wins. I learnt from Mr. Specter that a good lawyer must keep his client’s interest at the core of his advocacy. This was especially true for those clients who had suffered horrific injuries for no fault of theirs. They deserve the highest level of commitment from those entrusted to represent them – which is what the lawyers at K&S strove to do everyday.
My work in the Mass Torts division with Mr. Balefsky was very exciting. I was involved in a complex multi-district litigation involving a medical implant manufactured by the top names in the industry. We represented a fairly large group of plaintiffs who had suffered terrible injuries as a result of these devices. Before actually taking the cases to trial, there is immense pre-trial preparatory work that goes into it. The discovery of documents can into lakhs of documents – medical papers, contracts and regulatory filings. Junior lawyers must filter through these papers with a fine toothcomb to create an arsenal of questions with which to conduct depositions of the corporate players.
Thereafter, you returned to India and joined the chamber of Justice S.A. Bobde as his judicial law clerk. What prompted you to make this choice and what made this shift possible?
The founding partner at K&S – Mr. Shanin Specter, apart from being a brilliant lawyer, is also a very supportive attorney mentor. He encouraged my work at the firm and told me that my work was very well regarded.
However, when I got the opportunity to assist Justice Bobde in India – I went to Mr. Specter with the honest question, as to what I should do next. He told me to follow my heart and to do what I felt was best for my career. He also told me that the doors to his office would be open after my clerkship concluded. The next step was obvious – I booked myself on the next plane to New Delhi and dove straight into working with his lordship. I have always dreamt of litigating in the Indian Supreme Court – and this shift made it possible.
What was your work profile while working as a judicial clerk under Justice S.A. Bobde? What do you think are the most essential things required to excel in judicial clerkship?
Justice S. A. Bobde is a very meticulous and hard working individual – he expects the same level of commitment from his law clerk. Despite many of my friends questioning my decision to pursue a clerkship at this stage of my career – I felt it was the best decision of my professional life thus far. Working at the apex gives you a top down view of how the matter has progressed through the courts – you get to see which arguments worked and which didn’t. One begins to appreciate the judge’s thought process too – which is trained like a hawk to filter out irrelevant arguments.
To be successful in a clerkship, I feel it is essential to fully understand what is expected from one’s role. The clerk must play a solid supporting role to his or her judge – by carefully following the judge’s instructions, and also by taking the initiative to make the inflow of matters as efficient as possible. Sadly, judges in India are swamped with matters through the week – the workload is truly difficult to fathom until you actually see the volume of matters that come into the office.
I had the opportunity to assist lordship on several criminal and civil matters. The most interesting of the lot was an arbitration decision that centred around the computation of interest on an arbitral award. There is much to be learnt simply by observing a judge.
Ms. Sunita Narain and Mr. Lakhan Mehrotra
How did you think of writing a book?
(All India Reporter published Jai’s book, “Aequabilis”, which is a detailed legal study of former Chief Justice of India R.S. Pathak’s landmark judgments. It also discusses the Bhopal Gas tragedy decision in great depth and the development of mass-tort jurisprudence in India.)
This book happened by sheer accident. I’ve always looked up to Justice R.S. Pathak, as a child would admire his hero. Justice Pathak had a very gentle demeanour and an impressive command over the English language. He was an unassuming man and I was greatly inspired by him. His manner was extremely polished – a result of his fine lineage no doubt (his father was the Vice President and a famous advocate – G.S. Pathak), and he had this knack of being able to connect effortlessly with those several decades younger than him.
When he passed away, rather suddenly in 2007, I wanted to pay a tribute to his memory. When my efforts to organise a memorial lecture for him in my college did not materialise, I felt dejected and demoralised. Instead, I decided to immerse myself in his judgments and other writings – to reacquaint myself with my role model. Over time, I had read through nearly all of his judgments from his days as a high court judge and then his landmark decisions in the Supreme Court. I sensed a pattern in his writings, which was clearly distinguishable from the other cases I had read. Soon, I began critically analysing his judgments – and before I knew it, I had a collection of case comments and essays that aligned with Pathak’s core juridical philosophy.
The main chapter of the book, however, deals with the Union Carbide decision of the SC which awarded nearly half a billion dollars as compensation to the victims of the gas leak in Bhopal. I spent several hundred hours analysing this judgment and all the criticism that had been written against the decision. I realised that a lot of the hate came from journalistic reportage that had little understanding of the inherent delays in the Indian legal system – a fact that was acknowledged even by the Supreme Court. My book attempts to set the record straight in this regard – and counters the unfounded journalistic and academic criticism that this decision has faced over the decades. The fact that the Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld the original judgment is testament to the integrity and foresight of the Pathak Bench.
Share with us your experience in getting your book published and what was the reception to your book?
The editors at AIR Nagpur were extremely supportive and encouraged me to publish my writings in the form of a book. Interestingly, Mr. Ratan Tata has penned the foreword to the book and has praised the chapter on Union Carbide. Ambassador L.L. Mehrotra released the book last September at the India International Centre. The release was followed by a panel discussion with Ms. Sunita Narain – a noted environmentalist who debated the merits of the Bhopal Judgment. All in all – it was a very rewarding experience.
Currently, you are working as a Legal Consultant to the Vice Chairman and Managing Director of the Times of India Group, Mr. Samir Jain. How did you go about bagging this job?
Yes, I am presently attached with the Vice Chairman’s office at the Times Group. I wanted to understand the intricacies of the media landscape in India and also learn about corporate strategy – from a lawyer’s perspective.
I consider myself extremely fortunate to have been picked by the company to assist the CEO Group. I applied and was interviewed by their HR department, before being confirmed for the position.
Please give our readers some tips to nail an interview.
I think it’s really important to be honest and clear in any interview. Most HR professionals want candidates who can think and articulate clearly. It doesn’t help either if one has a negative attitude during the interaction – that would be a big red flag for any organisation.
How do you balance and make out time for writing blogs and other newspapers with your profession?
(Jai is one of the youngest columnists by the Times of India in 2012 and he regularly writes under the name “The Irreverent Lawyer” on legal and political issues as your hobby. Healso writes occasionally for the Hindustan Times, Niti Central, Indian Exponent, Power Politics and the Daily Pennsylvanian.)
Writing helps me to de-stress! With all the views and counterviews flying around on the 24X7 media, I find it very soothing to amplify my own voice of reason to cut through the chatter. I usually write only about issues that I’m passionate about. I dislike hypocrisy and you’ll notice that some of my writings attempt to expose the rampant doublespeak that certain groups indulge in.
I honestly do believe that lawyers can play a productive role in a democratic polity –by speaking up for the weakest sections of society. We’re also bound by our profession’s code of ethics – which demands that we strive for justice, inside and outside the courtroom.
Early mornings work best for me when I want to get some writing done. This way there’s nothing to disturb my thought process – since everyone’s either asleep, or they think that I’m still asleep!
Has writing been a passion ever since childhood? Do you have any future plans of taking up writing as a career?
Litigation is definitely my first love and I am committed to it professionally. Besides, I would make a terrible ‘fiction’ writer – I know that for a fact! Writing is a relaxing hobby for me, and I enjoy indulging in it occasionally. Unfortunately, I feel that I lack the self-restraint and neutrality that a career-journalist should possess. I feel too passionately about certain issues, and I make no effort to hide my biases. Hence writing as a journalist is ruled out for me. Besides, I enjoy the thrill of litigation far too much to do anything else!
What message do you want to give to the Government for not paying attention to this issue?
Judges in India are terribly underpaid – and it is a very serious issue that no one talks about. To compound the issue, our judges tend to be very traditional, and thus choose to suffer in silence to preserve the judiciary’s dignity. Despite their ever expanding workload and long hours, and the astronomical rise of lawyers’ fees, judicial salaries have largely stagnated at unrealistic levels. Good lawyers may one day refuse elevation on the ground of inadequate (in fact insultingly low) pay.
My article highlights this issue and warns the government of an impending constitutional disaster if this disparity is not addressed.
Lastly what would be your message for law students?
The only recipe for success in our profession is perseverance and hard work. Unfortunately, there are far too many young lawyers in Delhi and Mumbai, who are desperate to make a quick buck by adopting unethical means. Please don’t become like them. They latch on to established lawyers to become middlemen between clients and their own seniors. In the process, they swindle the client by over quoting the fee. Sadly, these so-called ‘lawyers’ never realise that their reputation at the Bar suffers immensely – and they are labelled for life.
Justice Pathak gave me excellent advice, which might be relevant to your readers too – “Work honestly for what you want. If it comes too easily, it’ll probably leave just as easily too.”
Varun Kalsi graduated in law from Amity Law School in 2007. After which he went on to pursue an LL.M. in Corporate Laws from New York University. At present Varun works as a Manager at Dua Associates.
In this interview we talk about:
His journey as a law student from Amity Law School
Studying LL.M from New York University and how it influenced his career
Working at Dua Associates.
How to gain expertise in corporate law
What brought you into studying law as your profession?
I’d say both but more of planning. Like most lawyers though I am good with my numbers, Mathematics was not my favourite subject. Back in 2002, the options were, therefore, pretty much limited to hotel management, media or law. Personally, I chose law since it seemed to me to be a more empowering medium that turned you into a professional, and is one where people hold you in great esteem, either out of admiration or fear or both!
How did you fare in academics at Amity? Would you say a great CGPA is a necessity to kickstart a good career in the legal profession?
I’d say I was amongst the bright ones in my batch with nice and healthy grades throughout my 5 years at law school and would also, like to add that, in my opinion, my batch was probably the best our law school had seen, in so far as academics and extra-curricular activities were concerned. There was immense competition even amongst friends but all in good spirit, which, in fact, led us to achieve much more than we would have done otherwise.
Considering that a fresh law graduate will not have great work experience (other than legal internships/clerkship), a potential recruiter’s primary focus would be on the candidate’s academic performance (grades and other achievements) whilst at law school. However, even if one’s CGPA is not the best, he/she may be hired by a recruiter on the basis of the candidate’s overall personality, the recruiter’s immediate requirements and the way he/she conduct himself/herself in an interview.
What skills did you get to hone as the Executive Member, Amity Law School Moot Court Society?
Acquiring organisational skills, inter-alia, was a great advantage of being an integral part of the Moot Court Society and we were nicely tested every time our college hosted the annual Moot Court Competition. Also, the exposure to other teams in terms of their manner of preparation and the way they prepared for the competition was always something one could learn and imbibe.
What is your advice to budding mooters?
(Varun has participated in various moot court competitions like Stetson International Environmental Law Moot Court Competition, Surana & Surana Corporate Law Moot Court Competition and Amity National Arbitration Moot Court competition.)
The first time you think about it, it might be difficult and you may put it on the backburner but my suggestion would be to push yourself to participate in a Moot Court competition, just for the sake of the experience. If I was never “pushed/encouraged” by my friend/batchmate- Apar Gupta, I am certain I would not even done half of what I eventually achieved. The idea is to get in there and get a feel of things as you’d never know whether you like it or not until you try it. By the aforesaid, I don’t mean that it is mandatory but I’d highly recommend that you at least give it a try, once. Perhaps, it is instrumental in your decision as to the path you’d eventually choose in your legal career, i.e. being a litigator or a corporate lawyer.
What kind of internships did you do in your law school? Did you have institutional support for procurement of internships?
I actually did a variety of internships right from with a High Court lawyer, an Advocate-on-record, few law firms (Corporate and IPR) and so on. For me, internships were always an avenue that could help me make that difficult decision- what kind of practice would I relish as a lawyer?
There was minimal institutional support available for procurement of internships.
Do you think being from a non-NLU has ever proved to be a hindrance for you? What has been your experience?
I think it depends on the organisation as to what it values more- the individual student’s calibre or his/her institution itself. To be fair to the students there are indeed organisations that openly practice such “discrimination” but then that’s not the case with the others. Also, one has to bear in mind that the institution will always play a key role for any fresh law graduate as a recruiter may view his/her abilities from the fact that the student is a product of that particular institution. I am sure such issues are also faced by MBAs who are not from ISB or IIMs but then there are always other options.
Many lawyers say that the first year after graduation is the most difficult year for young lawyers. How did you learn the ropes and what were the biggest challenges you faced?
Well, isn’t that true for all professionals? I firmly believe that all professionals are valued in terms of their experience and expertise, which can only be learnt the hard way, i.e. one has to go through the whole process or loosely speaking, the grind. My first year was challenging too especially since my senior was an experienced and seasoned lawyer who would not accept anything less than perfect but was always available to answer my questions and discuss legal issues with me. I would ensure (and still do) that I do not repeat any of my mistakes and strive to improve my drafts/opinions basis the hands-on knowledge and on-the-job experience that I’ve acquired while at work.
Right after graduating, you went on to pursue LL.M from New York University School of Law. Why did you decide to go for higher studies?
After doing different kinds of internships I was inclined towards being a corporate lawyer and therefore, felt that it would be great if I could improve upon my knowledge of Corporation laws with an international perspective to it. I’d say that I was extremely fortunate to get through NYU as its faculty, especially for courses like Corporation law and M&A, is par excellence and added a new dimension to the way I perceived the corporate law practice.
Tell us something about your LL.M year at New York University School of Law. How did this influence your career?
Not only did this year add to my legal acumen it also brought me in touch with a bunch of talented individuals who had come there from all across the globe. Also, it helped me evolve as an individual and in the process I even learnt few new things about myself. The NYU stint brought more clarity to my thought process in so far as concerns the sub-practice areas within the corporate law practice and helped me forge certain lifetime relationships, which influenced my career greatly.
Do you think it makes sense to students to go overseas to study law when they want to work/practice in India?
It’s a personal choice. For instance, for me it was a better and sounder understanding of Corporation laws with an international twist and then the thought of working abroad for a few years. I was able to achieve only the former. Therefore, it totally depends on the individual’s goal. Studying overseas is no guarantee that you will get a chance to work there too, therefore, if the ultimate goal is to work abroad it may not be the best route. It is pertinent to note that there are individuals who had been practicing in India and now are with law firms abroad and vice-versa. Thus, there is no direct co-relation between studying abroad and practicing in India.
Tell us about the nature of work you are entrusted with and what’s a typical day like?
There is no typical day for a lawyer like me as my practice areas are wide in nature being general corporate/commercial advisory and Real Estate. There are days when you are swamped with work and do not know when night falls and then there are some when you have some breathing space. Having said that, I am always on something all the time whether it is execution of work for clients or business development activity as ultimately I have to justify my cost to my firm.
How do you say one can gain expertise in corporate law? What does it take to be a good corporate lawyer?
(Varun’s key practice areas are General Corporate laws including Defence and Foreign Exchange Regulations and he is also engaged in major Real Estate Transactions.)
My recommendation would be to firstly, get the basics right. The fundamentals of the Company’s Act (as amended) and the Contract Act should be clear as these, inter-alia, are the main statutes that govern corporate transactions and are followed by other laws and regulations depending upon the nature of a transaction. Also, it would be a good idea to follow deals such as acquisitions and mergers through news items and trying to understand the drivers and mechanics to these deals as much as possible.
How do you keep yourself abreast with latest industry news and trends?
Nowadays, there are several options available such as news items, legal websites and other resources that provide me with the latest legal developments and happenings in India and around the world. Another prominent resource is keeping in touch with your colleagues working with you and otherwise.
How do you maintain a work-life balance? Are there any specific time management tips you would like to share?
The best tip is always to finish your work as soon as possible and not sit on it till the penultimate moment. This way, one may have an opportunity to have some free time to indulge in other activities. Having said that, it totally depends on the volume of work and how you manage it that eventually determines your work-life balance.
When you lawyers are hired, what kind of skills and profile are looked for?
The legal fraternity hires on need basis, i.e. in proportion to their requirements and intended revenue and other projections. For freshers, while recruiting things that matter are the institution, candidate’s academic performance and the overall personality of a candidate in order to determine his/her suitability to the job and the possibility of his/her adaptability to the work environment and the team, which he/she shall join. For working lawyers, it’s their grip of their practice areas, legal acumen, business development skills, work ethics and his/her suitability to the job and the possibility of his/her adaptability to the work environment and the team, which he/she shall join.
You must have guided several interns. How would you say that an intern can generate a positive feedback in the limited time they have?
There is only one way- ‘do as much work as you possibly can’ as only this will give you the necessary exposure. There can be times when you are not called upon for a few days to do an assignment but that should not deter you from going to different lawyers within the firm and politely asking if they could do with some assistance. Also, the other key is to carefully listen and note down the instructions given for an assignment. This will ensure that your research work is on track and if the lawyer is pleased with your work, he/she will give you more work or you may even stand a chance of an offer from the organisation in some cases.
You recently got promoted from an Associate to Manager. Which skills would you say contributed towards this promotion?
The Manager designation is one step away from becoming a Partner and in that context, it is a crucial career milestone. It brings with itself lot more responsibility and commitment both in terms of work and business development activities, which need to be met.
It’s been a while since I have been with Dua Associates, right from being an Associate to a Senior Associate and now, a Manager. I think a nice mix of some hard work, sincerity, interpersonal relationships with colleagues and good fortune are the reasons. I firmly believe that if one is consistently putting in the efforts he/she will get the necessary recognition, which may be sooner for some and perhaps, a little later for the others but it will come.
What would be your parting message to our readers?
It is important to enjoy whatever you are doing so choose your path accordingly. If you enjoy your work, you will deliver and succeed in your endeavours. Do not fret about success as it will follow your hard work with a mix of some good fortune, of course!
Ranjeetsinh Jayendra Pawar graduated from ILS Law College, Pune in 2012. While in law school, he worked with various organization like K11 Fitness Management Co. Pvt. Ltd., 5 Fitness Club and Unique Organic Agri Tourism Pvt. Ltd. handling their Sales Operations and Business Development. Soon after graduation, he co-founded ARP Associates, a full service law firm in Pune. Very recently, ARP Associates has been renamed as OJAS Legal which is an umbrella organization that provides legal support in five major cities including Pune, Mumbai and New Delhi.
In this interview, he talks about:
Law school experience at ILS Law College
Starting up with ARP Associates
Journey from ARP Associates to OJAS Legal
Having business operational skills as opposed to skills of a lawyer to become a partner
Internship opportunities at ARP Associates.
Were your sure about pursuing a career in the legal field from the beginning or did you think of alternate career options?
My father was in the judiciary, so ever since I can remember, I have been closely involved with the legal profession. I was brought up in an environment that saw court procedures, criminals and police as daily affairs. There was no alternative for me, truth be told – it was clear from the very beginning.
What made your journey with ILS worth it? What is your take on extra-curricular activities and maintaining CGPA?
After having the kind of childhood that took me from school to school in various cities every few years, thanks to my father’s transfers as a judge, ILS was the best kind of college I could have dreamt of.
I loved making friends and made it a point to get to know as many people as possible in the college, regardless of what batch they were in.
My extra-curricular activities included photography and organising events like moots and conferences. Memorably, in my fourth year, we did a research project that culminated in a National Level Conference chaired by Justice P N Bhagwati himself. Working on this project with the like of Soli Sorabjee, Harish Salve, Fali Nariman and Dalveer Bhandari was the high point of my years at ILS.
So, while a good CGPA definitely helps, it isn’t the only thing that is going to take you to success.
What were your areas of interest during your graduation? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?
Honestly speaking, I wasn’t sure of an area of interest all through my graduation. Around the final year though, I started studying property law, sparked by some personal interest and its instinctive appeal to me. I also worked with a real estate development company in the same year, assisting them with acquisition and development work. The intricate ways in which property can be transferred and its lineage be traced back through the years – almost like a human bloodline – fascinated me immeasurably. In this pursuit, extra-curricular activities like research projects and moot courts definitely helped.
Right after graduation, you co-founded ARP Associates and currently work as a Partner there. Was it pre-planned or it just happened during last year at ILS?
The trio that founded ARP are batchmates from ILS. It so happened that after college, when we had all taken up our respective jobs, we realised that we actually wanted to be entrepreneurs – for the freedom of being able to call the shots. Also, it dawned on us that all three of us had complimentary areas of interest, which would allow us to cover more areas of service. And so, ARP was born.
Please tell us something about “ARP Associates”. What are the main areas of practice of the firm?
ARP was founded around mid-2012, with the primary goal of becoming a multi-city organisation that provided one-stop services, to individuals and entities looking for a more solution-oriented legal experience, at an easier price point.
Since we were a start-up, we took up all sorts of work, learning it on the go. But, we continued with a clear goal. ARP gradually developed into a full service law firm, focussing on corporate advisory and litigation support.
Very Recently, we changed ARP Associates to OJAS Legal which is an umbrella organisation that provides legal support in 5 major cities including Pune, Mumbai and New Delhi. OJAS now covers more areas of work and has more associations and partnerships to ensure that our clients have a complete service experience. Our strength has been the personal touch we provide our clients in the service which has ensured that we have retained all our clients since the beginning.
What were the initial challenges you faced setting up your law firm and how did you get through them?
Initially, the biggest challenge we faced was lack of experience! More, to be honest, our ‘lack of age’. People were reluctant to give us work in this field that is largely seniority-controlled, in which experience counts for more than capability, which is not entirely unjust. The work we got initially was from people who knew us. It came to a point where breaking even looked difficult and we started doubting the risk we had taken. Minor work here and there kept coming in, but not much was at stake in those cases. We had to execute these deliverables with impeccable perfection to ensure that we had some wriggle room moving on. But, one thing led to another and things turned around; our biggest support was word-of-mouth from clients.
What is the most challenging or stressful part of being founder of a law firm? Is it easy to have a work-life balance?
The challenging part of being a start up law firm is acquiring and executing work when your failure is a bigger possibility. The other side of the challenge is managing the human resources. Not many freshers want to work with you because you’re new, and since you’re new, you can’t pay them enough. This leads to partners having to multitask on all fronts, like work deliverables, client service, research and admin.
Work consumes most of life – we are always available for retainer clients and emergencies. Long vacations are impossible and short one-day leaves become dearer. But today we are around three years old and have a stronger team and a presence in the industry which attracts new interns and associates. This has allowed us to be able to delegate work and duties but the burden of work keeps increasing with each day.
How is the work culture at OJAS Legal? Are there new challenges every day or did work fall into a predictable pattern?
The work culture in our office is quite strict, thanks to my partner Arpit Ratan, who is a total workaholic and a maverick in legal solutions. We are flexible about almost everything in administration, except client service. That is the one thing we are uncompromising about. There are new challenges literally every hour, because people come to us with issues regarding things even we aren’t too sure about. It is a continuous learning process for us partners, being on the field, liaising with government departments, researching, negotiating and strategising. Every other problem is full of surprises. Only the shock factor may have gone down slightly, but the number of surprises and problems has just increased.
If an associate commits a mistake or an error what course of action do you follow as a partner?
We are quite like a school when it comes to associates. An associate will be asked to sit with either of the Partners for an evaluation upon committing a mistake. S/he may be asked to repeat the work with more instructions, or review the partner’s work to learn for the future. We try to train associates to broaden their thought process and ask more questions. Our Firm believes in the power of dissent – the more the argument or questions on an issue, the better the solution.
What kind of effort should a young associate put in to work to be appreciated? What distinguishes an associate from a partner when it comes to work?
The associate has to reach a point of delivery at which the firm can directly forward their work to a client, with little or no changes. Mistakes in work are never the liability of an associate; the partner has to face the client about them. This is where the associate can start by thinking like the person who has to answer or face the music for delivering bad work. That’s the sign of a very efficient associate.
What falls within the scope of your responsibility? Tell us about a usual work day.
Most of my morning hours involve co-ordinating between our resources. The day’s to-do list has to be ticked off, and that means all the pieces need to fall in place. A major part of it is calling people and following up on their respective duties. A lot of the day is spent meeting people for different purposes – there could also be visits to client offices for various troubleshooting requirements. The end of the day is generally spent in office, reviewing the day’s deliverables from associates and researching; the partners also meet to discuss the next day’s scheduling.
How important is it for a law firm partner to be good at business development, or are great advocating skills enough to become a partner?
Business development is absolutely crucial to corporate law firms. Without clients, you would have no work and no growth. Great lawyering skills are definitely irreplaceable, but without good business development, they cannot reach their true, optimised potential. Meeting as many people as you can is the key to good Business Development.
How is internship helpful for a law student?
During my college years, interning with big corporate law firms was a rage amongst the students. It isn’t a bad thing either, but what I strongly believe is that students should try for variation in the experiences they gather during college. Work at different levels of legal institutions to understand the system better. This varied experience will help you take a better decision during your final year. Internships are definitely important, as they are the only exposure to the practical application of our education during college years.
Does your law firm take in interns? What do you look for in a prospective applicant?
Yes, we do take in 2-3 interns for every month from different colleges or cities. The application procedure is the same as any other place – send us a mail and we will call you in for an interview. With the interns, the only qualities we look for are zeal to learn and some sense of responsibility. The applicant needs to treat this internship with due respect, as we allow more exposure to them than most places – for example, we have interns sitting in on client meetings and interacting directly with clients. We have had some pretty great interns over the past, some of whom even worked directly on client deliverables and qualified for the strict OJAS standards.
Please share your experience of starting up with a law firm for the benefit of law students and young lawyers who want to start up on their own.
All I would say is don’t be afraid of the difficulties. This profession has enough work and different strata of clients’ paying capabilities allow everyone to have their pick. Just be honest to your principles and keep working.
Niharika Maske graduated from NLIU, Bhopal in 2011. She has participated in various co-curricular activities and has multiple publications to her name. Also, she has an excellent series of internships at top law firms. Soon after graduation, she started working at Juris Corp, Mumbai as an Associate. Currently, she works as a Law Officer at Bank of Baroda.
In this interview, she talks about:
Law school experience at NLIU
Work experience at Juris Corp
Induction and work at Bank of Baroda
Given that most of our readers are law students and lawyers, how would you introduce yourself to them?
Hi, this is Niharika Maske. I can certainly introduce myself as an accidental law graduate from NLIU, Bhopal. Currently I am working, not by accident this time, as a Law Officer – Departmental Head of Legal department in Bank of Baroda, Bhopal Regional Office.
Though it’s one of the most asked questions but yet, why law?
Mmm. So honestly speaking, ending up in Law has been a fortunate accident for me. Like most of the students at my age, I was preparing for medical and law was nowhere near my thoughts as a possible career option. I accidently came across a piece in the newspaper about law as a career and NLIU and thereafter just randomly filled up the entrance form for NLIU. Cleared the entrance and here I am today, thankful for the fortunate accident.
You have done your graduation from NLIU, Bhopal. How would you describe your time there as? Tell us about the academic environment and faculty at NLIU.
NLIU – my alma mater. My time at NLIU has been blissful. I feel you can never thank your alma mater enough because it gives you so much – knowledge, name and the strong foundation which you require in shaping up your future. NLIU is truly one of the finest Law Universities in the Country. I had the privilege to study under some exceptionally knowledgeable teachers like – Ghayur Alam Sir – Knowing the law is one thing, but knowing how to read it – is what makes all the difference and that’s what he taught us. Then V.K. Dixit Sir – trust me when I say this, if you ever get a chance to even attend any one lectures, never miss it. He taught us Jurisprudence in a way that no one can match – co-relating law with our day to day practical life, it was just beautiful. And the list will go on. So in short, I would say NLIU gives you more than you can expect from your college.
What were your areas of interest during your graduation? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?
Initially, Constitutional law was the one subject which excited me the most. I think rarely you will find a young law student who is not mesmerized by those landmark judgments shaping our Constitution. In the later years of law school I started interning with law firms and was exposed to multiple areas in commercial laws, for which I developed a gradual interest. Securities law, which also was my 1st area of practice, is also something I enjoyed. Relentless reading, research papers and umpteen numbers of discussions with my friends really helped me in law school.
Your internships at law school have all been with top tier firms. Our readers would be quite curious to know how you went about securing these internships.
Here, I would definitely like to share my experiences. When we were in 1st-2nd year, we literally had no idea how to go about internships, where to apply, how to apply and when to apply. So for the students in their first and second years, I would suggest to go for internships in District court/High court/Consumer Forums/Human Rights Commissions/NGO’s – try and get knowledge of procedural law in your initial years. And by that I mean try and learn the law in practice as its quite different from law in books. And from third year onwards go for internships at Law Firms (litigation and corporate both – would help you in analysing your area of interest)/Corporate Houses.
Now coming to how to apply, start applying for internships somewhere in August end for winter internships and around February end for summer internships. Dropping an e-mail along with your resume is never enough. You need to follow up through call and pursue and show that your keen to work with them. Also, contact your seniors in the respective Law firms/offices and convey your intention to apply and I am sure that each of your alumni would be more than happy to help (that’s how I secured some of my internships). That being said, there are few firms/corporate houses which provide internships through college placement cells. So you can always apply there.
My last internship which got me a Job at Juris Corp – was through Placement Cell of my college only. So all you need to do is just plan a little bit and things will fall in place.
A lot of law students in their primary years of law school plan to change the legal regime of India. Have you ever felt that kind of thought crossing you?
I still do. I believe that education, in any stream, empowers you to empower others. Every small step taken is a change in itself. So whenever and wherever I get a chance to make something right I try my best to do it.
Do you believe that excellent CGPA is absolutely necessary for success?
For me the golden rule was that a good CGPA never harmed anyone. A good CGPA does reflect effort on your part and in most cases most obvious means to acquire knowledge. I would not say that an excellent CGPA has an ‘absolutely necessary’ role to play in success.
But yes, it does have an important role to play. See from a plain simple recruitment perspective, these days Law, as a career option, has become really popular and a lot of youngsters are taking it up and the competition has increased quite a bit.
So in order make yourself stand out, you do need to give importance to your CGPA. That obviously does not mean you need to be a topper, is absolutely necessary. But maintaining a decently good CGPA would help you in the long run. One should always remember that a good CGPA is one of the filters which a prospective employer may use to decide interviewing/ recruiting you.
You have publications in various renowned journals. How should one go about writing papers and getting the same published?
Suggestions here are would be:
Read a lot;
Choose a topic intelligently and
Contact the journals/magazines etc. which are concerned with the area of law you have written on.
How did publishing affect your legal career? Apart from academia, does it help one to secure jobs at all?
How I feel about publications is that, apart from academia, when ever any organisation is looking to hire, they don’t just look into how well you have scored in your exams. They also look for other achievements of yours apart from it and how active you are in other extra-curricular activities. I feel having good publications definitely helps a lot in securing jobs. It gives you that little ‘extra’ weightage to your resume.
Soon after graduation, you started working at Juris Corp as an Associate. How did your appointment take place? What worked for you in securing the job?
Yes, so as I stated before, that my last internship got me the job at Juris Corp. Juris Corp has a well defined procedure of recruitment – they recruited through internships only. So they had called for applications from our batch. They shortlisted my application for summer internship for both May and June. Now, I knew that there procedure of recruitment was if they like your work in summer internship, they will give you a call back for winter internship and after that again if your work is good, they will give you the job offer. I don’t know why but I wanted to crack the job in my summer internship only and I believe this ensured my single minded focus for these two months. Co-incidentally the placement of our batch was going to commence from 7th August and but I was given pre-placement offer and I took it. Being the first to get a job from my batch – felt amazing.
Currently, you work as a Law Officer at Bank of Baroda. Please tell us about the recruitment process at Bank of Baroda
Bank of Baroda and other Public Sector Banks excluding SBI recruits through written examination conducted by IBPS (Institute for Banking Personnel Selection) which is then followed by interview and based on your aggregate marks and your ranking in merit list you are allotted the respective Banks according to their vacancies. So I had done preparation for the written exam seriously and as they say hard work never goes waste, I managed to get through the written exam and interview.
How did you go about preparing for your interview? Do you remember any of the questions asked to you?
I did prepare for the interview. As the recruitment was for bank, so I studied banking laws in particular along with Contract Law, Transfer of property Act and CPC, IPC as well. The interview was really difficult; the panellist actually can ask you anything and everything. They mostly asked me questions pertaining to SARFAESI Act, Contract Act and Transfer of Property Act. Apart from this they also asked me questions regarding my future plans in career.
Any tips on how one should go about framing a C.V. and prepare for an interview?
I would say keep your CV simple, precise and to the point. Don’t exaggerate or put something just for creating a good impression, unless you can justify and explain what you have written in it. Always remember to highlight your strengths in your CV as the interviewers would expect you to know completely about what you have mentioned in your CV. Say for example, you wrote an article on Takeover Code. Now at the time of interview, don’t limit yourself to just the topic you covered in your article. You should be aware and updated about the recent and major developments relating to it as well. Don’t try to put anything in CV that you may not be able to answer during the interview if asked upon.
Tell us about the nature of work you’re entrusted with? How is the experience so far? Tell us a bit about the bank, your typical workday and the overall work/life balance.
The work in bank is varied. Anything and everything remotely linked with law will be given to you. I look after vetting of loan documents, title search reports, monitoring of Consumer Cases, Civil Suits and DRT applications, SARFAESI proceedings, legal aspects of recovery proceedings, RTI applications and appeals etc. So the scope of work is varied and very demanding. You are acting as an advisor to nearly 80+ branches of your Region. So you need to have thorough knowledge of your subject so that you can provide correct guidance. The experience so far has been good. Every day is a challenge and comes with new issues and opportunities to learn something new. Work/life balance in a public sector organisation is slightly better than law firms. The work is not less I would say but, the work timings are better. You get free around 7-8 pm maximum. And so you are able to spend time with your family and friends.
What were the biggest hurdles and challenges in the first few months? How did you deal with them? What do you think makes a good in-house counsel?
See, having joined at a ground level and having no practical experience in banking law, it was quite a task and challenge for me to understand the type of work for the first few months. But I have been lucky to have got amazing seniors at the office who understood and acknowledged the fact that I had no prior experience in banking law and gave me time to understand the work and gave me guidance wherever I got stuck. So that helped me a lot. For being a good in-house counsel you need to have complete knowledge about your area of work and patience to peacefully handle clients.
It’s been almost two years of your work experience in banking law. What would you say contributes to the high attrition rate of the top banks?
The opportunities are growing day by day. Better job prospects makes one move from one place to another.
Does Bank of Baroda take interns?
Bank of Baroda does not take interns. But I have moved a suggestion to our head Office at Mumbai for considering taking interns as I got to know that students are keen in getting internships here. So, if this materialises, I think it would help students get an idea of the work and working environment at banks. Though the recruitment would still be through written exam only, but I feel the internships will be beneficial for students.
Many people believe that working as an in-house counsel affords more work-life balance and is less demanding. Would you agree?
I agree with that partially. Working as in-house counsel does give a work/life balance but it’s equally demanding. The work is no less and is varied and very demanding. Imagine proposals of 1000 crores just depending on your saying yes or no as regards legal viability of the same. So I feel, every job has its own challenges and is demanding.
What would be your parting message to law students?
I have always believed in few mantras which have helped me always in achieving what I want. First that hard work never goes waste and that there is nothing in this world that you can’t’ achieve if you sincerely work towards achieving it. So be sincere, honest, dedicated, focused and do everything – be it small or big to make your dream come true. Start asking yourself the question where do you see yourself in the next 2, 5 and 10 years from now. That will help you have an answer as to what do you want to achieve. Having realised that, start working towards it, plan it out a little, speak with your seniors, take their guidance. Remember – Your Will decides your Fate. Not the other way round.
K K Sarachandra Bose is a corporate lawyer with experience in Dubai and various other jurisdictions over the last three decades. A member of the International Bar Association, he studied law from R.L. Law College Belgaum, Karnataka, and graduated in 1976. Currently he is a partner at Dal Al-Adalah Advocates & Legal Consultants at Dubai, and Bose & Bose & Nair at Cochin.
Between all his commitments of being a lawyer, he has found out time and energy to pursue a very noble mission: Eradication of caste system in India. He plans to achieve this by effecting a paradigm change in Indian law through constitutional reforms. He is the author of the book “Caste Away – India, Hinduism and Untouchability.”
In this interview he tells us about:
What prompted him to spread social awareness in India for 54 days and travel across 18,500 km.
Eradication of Caste Discrimination in India.
His second Bharat Yathra, i.e. the ‘Caste Eradication Bharat Yathra’ which starts today.
Our site is directed at law students and lawyers. How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?
I am a corporate, commercial and contracts lawyer practicing in Dubai and other jurisdictions for the last over 36 years; a member of the International Bar Association, visiting professor in International Business Law, legal columnist in several publications, addressed over 100 law seminars as a guest speaker; Chairman of Global Dialogue Foundation, and Unity in Diversity under the auspices of the United Nations Alliance of Civilizations since its inception in 2007 till date.
Tell us about your years before law school. Were there particular childhood incidents that proved to be an inspiration for you?
My childhood was all thrilling. Being born in a very rich family and my father being a Gandhian politician gave away almost all our wealth for the welfare of the society. We lost almost all our wealth and my mother had to sell her land to pay for my college fee. My father took care of the society but not his family and children. This prompted me to first take care of me and my family and then the society. I witnessed low and high caste among human beings during my childhood in my own house when my father served food to field workers, few workers were in an enclosed place and the rest, the vast majority in the open field in pits dug and leaves inserted. I was really pained to see that my own playmates were ill-treated.
What inclined you towards legal education?
I was good in mathematics and got admission for Engineering after passing pre-degree (12 grade) but though the college fee was paid, I left Engineering and got a job and then pursued BA as an external student and then law as an internal student in R.L. Law College Belgaum, Karnataka.
What would you say were the instrumentalities of law school which helped to frame your career?
I was a studious student, though a college gunda, in the words of my college principal. When our University Vice Chancellor cancelled the Carry Over Benefit (COB) without giving any prior notice, I took the lead and got his order reversed by the State Governor, Chancellor of the University.
Our readers would be keen to know any specific incident which has driven you to become a social activist.
From my childhood, I feel the pain if another person is hurt. While in Dubai during 1977 – 1990 period, I used to visit the labour camps with journalists and highlight to the government the pathetic living conditions of the labourers.
What prompted you take up social activity and spread awareness for any grave social cause in a full time manner?
(KK Sarachandra Bose is a corporate lawyer by profession and a partner at Dal Al-Adalah Advocates & Legal Consultants at Dubai and Bose & Bose and Nair at Cochin.)
In the legal profession, I believe my clients like me so much and my opinion on corporate and contract matters are well sought by corporates of the highest order. But I always say, legal profession is for my bread and butter, my blood is social activism for the benefit of the society as a whole.
Tell us about your whole journey/social drive in your own words.
(He travelled across India for 54 days to promote the causeand covered around 18,500km along with his 30 member teamand distributed books, free of charge, across the country.)
My 54 day Jathi Nirmarjana Bodhavatkarana Sandesa Bharat Yatthra – 9 June to 1 August 2014 – was really a thrilling one. I visited the entire Shri Mahabharat including the North Eastern states which people say normally nobody visits. I could see and witness the ill effects of the evil caste system in my country. While in Rajasthan, I was told, by some local people considering themselves as low castes there, not to speak about the caste system as the upper caste people may come and harm me. I increased my volume and told very loudly that this is my country and nobody will dare stop me. Some people told me that they want to make the savarna people avarna and paint the buildings in Delhi with the same brush and paste that they are forced to carry every day to clean lavatories. I enjoyed huge support not only from the so-called lower caste people, but from the upper class who hates the caste system. In Tripura, the Buddhist Sangha there promised full support to eradicate the caste system from India.
You have authored a book “Caste Away – India, Hinduism and Untouchability”. What message did you intend to give to your readers through your book?
My book “Caste Away – India, Hinduism and Untouchability” is the result of my 40 years of research, studies, discussions and conviction on the subject, caste system in India. I have gone through our history beyond the Vedic period, or to say, prior to Vamana avatar. I have seen, as if I were there, that we had a great past prior to the Vedic period and that was exactly the Brahmanism – Sathyamvada, Dharmamchara, Athidhi Devobhava. This Brahmanism has been killed and murdered in our country for the past over 5000 years and I am re-introducing it and I am asking everyone to adhere to it.
How far would you say it is possible to eradicate the caste discrimination among Hindus and other religions from India?
It is very easy to eradicate the caste discrimination among Hindus and other religions from India. We should understand that there was no caste system before 5000 years, there was no caste system before 300 years. Similarly, there was no Hinduism before 5000 years and there was no Hinduism before 300 years. Caste system which is an offshoot of Hinduism, in the words of our Hon’ble Supreme Court, originated during the British India rule and not before. We had colour system in India, the black skinned Adivasi aborigine people and the fair or white skinned aggressors. When I say, aggressors, please do not get confused as they are also our brothers and sisters from the same grandparents, Manu and Satrupa or Adam and Eve as called in the Western world. The whole issue in the world is the two skin colours, black and white skins. Slavery originated in our country 5000 years ago as the fair skinned aggressors enslaved the black skinned Sri Mahabharatvasis. Slavery went out from our country and spread as an epidemic in the whole world. Once caste system is abolished in the Hinduism which is the breeding ground of slavery, then all those who left and became untouchable Dalit Buddhists, Dalit Jains, Dalit Sikhs, Dalit Christians, Dalit Muslims etc., will all become Brahmins in its sense – Brahmjnane iti Brahmana.
What type of feedback you were you receving from the people at large?
Feedback from the people at large is tremendous. No one has ever told me that either he or she wants the caste system to continue. There are several letters of support in my file.
What are the main social causes in your priority list which you intend to promote through your second Bharat Yatra?
(He is all set tostart hissecond Bharat Yathra, ie, the ‘Caste Eradication Bharat Yathra’ whichis commencing today on 9thMay 2015.)
In the Caste Eradicatin Bharat Yathra commencing on 9 May 2015, I will be conducting mass upanayanas in public in the presence of the five headed creator God Bhramadev representing the five elements of creation by priests well versed in pre-Vedic rites declaring all as Brahmins and thus remove that feeling of lowness in the minds of the people.
Do you follow the ideologies or philosophy of eminent leaders like Mahatma Gandhi or Raja Ram Mohan Roy in regard to eradicate caste system?
No, I do not follow ideologies or philosophies of any leader. I follow my heart and I have developed my own ideology. For instance, Shri. Mahatma Gandhi wanted to abolish untouchability by retaining the caste system. While Article 17 of our Constitution abolishes untouchability, several other articles in the Constitution reintroduces untouchability through the caste system. How can I follow such a tricky ideology or philosophy? That is why, I have loudly said, quoting several judgments of our Supreme Court, that our Constitution is tricky and there is fraud in our Constitution and it must be amended.
Did you get any reply from The Centre or do you think the government will take any serious steps or preventive measures regarding the eradication of caste discrimination from India?
(He also sent a notice to the Indian Government regarding the abolishment of caste system or to banish the caste system from India.)
I did not get any direct reply to my notice from the Government. But I received several indirect replies and reactions from the Government such as, Janardan Dwivedi’s comments to stop caste based reservations and introduce economic based reservations and Sonia Gandhi’s rebuttal thereto; Mohan Bhagavat’s call to eradicate the caste system; world religious leaders calling for eradication of the Indian caste system by 2020; International Bar Association supporting me; Supreme Court lawyers supporting me; hurried Ghar Vapasi by some Hindu orgainzations in bringing the escaped people back to their earlier low caste or slave status; etc.
Do you think you will be successful in complete eradication of poverty and casteism from India?
I am a doubtless person. I will see the end of the caste system in the very near future. Government, I mean the Indian society, will have no option but to amend the Constitution and abolish the caste system.
Did you get any positive response from there supporting your cause?
(He has also organized seminars for Indians who visit Dubai and deliver lectures to help them understand the laws, rules and regulations of the country.)
I am getting support from all quarters.
Do you think every lawyer should devote some time towards any social cause and work on it?
I do think that every lawyer should devote some time towards social causes. The lawyers unlike other professionals or businessmen, have the knowledge of the law and also have interaction with the laws, law makers and the law courts. When a layman is also not exempt from the knowledge of the law as law is considered universal, a lawyer has the privilege not only to know the laws but also to counter the laws if found unsuitable.
Last but not the least, would you like to leave any message for our readers?
I wish all your readers understand the basic human values and treat another human being as a human being, not as an animal as in the caste system based on the skin colour of the people.
Prerna Singh is a graduate from School of Law, Christ University (Batch of 2011). Her internship experiences were quite diverse. She has interned with various prestigious law firms including Trilegal, Dua Associates & LKS. While in law school, she participated in various co-curricular activities and has multiple publications to her name. She was a proactive mooter and has both participated and won a few moot court competitions in law school. Soon after graduation, she started working at SRGR Law Office and thereafter shifter to Archer and Angel, Advocates and Legal Consultants as an Associate. Currently, she works as a Consultant at PricewaterhouseCoopers in Risk Advisory.
In this interview we talk about:
Her days at Christ College, Bangalore and at various internships
Her work experience at SRGR Law Offices.
Her professional shift to Archer and Angel, Advocates and Legal Consultants.
Working as a Legal Consultant at PricewaterhouseCooper, India.
How would you introduce yourself to our readers? Tell us what motivated you to pursue law as a career.
Well I was born in Bihar and brought up in Jaipur. I did my schooling at The Nest Children Secondary School and India International School in Jaipur, after which I moved to Bangalore to pursue law from Christ College. I am currently working with PricewaterhouseCoopers India at their Mumbai Office as a ‘Consultant’ in their Risk Advisory LoS, prior to which I was working with law firms in Delhi and Mumbai.
That question is particularly of significance in my case because I am the first one and by far the only one to have pursued law as profession in my family. I am not sure if there is this one thing that I could point at as my reason for pursuing law but it wasn’t accidentally for sure. I had taken up science and maths as my core subjects after 10thgrade and was preparing to write engineering entrances and it was in the later part of my 12th grade that I got consciously inclined towards law.
As philosophical as it may sound, I use the term ‘consciously’ because I believe that it must have been there subconsciously long before it came to realisation. I am an avid reader and back in those days used to be majorly hooked on to novels. I used to love reading John Grisham books. Also, it so happened that I would end up spotting a lot of articles in the newspapers every other day on law as a career option, its prospects, on law schools in India and so on. Around the same time, I also ended up meeting my father’s friend, who had interestingly studied multiple subjects including law and so my obvious question to him as someone who was considering law as a career option but was not absolutely certain about it was – “Having studied subjects from almost every stream, which is your favourite?” and his instant response to that was something to this effect “Law, hands down” and post that answer, I was sure that I wanted to give it a serious shot. Looking back, it feels like all these were ‘omen’ in Paulo Coelho’s terms guiding me towards pursuing law. Today, when I think of it, I cannot place myself in any other profession but law and I cannot thank my parents enough for supporting me in my delayed decision of pursuing law and understanding where I was coming from despite being a science maths student.
Tell us a bit about your days at Christ College, Bangalore?
The five years spent in Bangalore during law school days continue to be my favourite. These five years were crucial being the foundation years of my life and it could not have gotten better than Christ College and Bangalore. I owe hugely to my days in Bangalore for who I am today as a person and feel extremely privileged to have studied at Christ.
Our curriculum in law school was quite hectic and packed back in 2006-2011. We had regular classes from 9 am to 4pm on most days with additional certificate courses and maintaining 85% attendance was mandatory, failing which disciplinary actions, including barring from writing exams were taken. Further, we had multiple assignment submission with stringent deadlines for every subject in each semester, which meant spending time in the library almost every other day post classes, researching and reading up on various subjects. Add to that the weekly presentations for certain subjects and readings for everyday class.
After having this as your regular routine, if you are someone who is active in co-curricular and extracurricular activities such as mooting, debating, writing papers, sports and cultural activities in law school, which I was, one had to stretch even further. Having said that, most classes were made so interesting and interactive that there were days when you could find us in classrooms continuing the discussion with the batch mates and faculty members even post the classes. I for one had started loving that routine, for it was so enriching in more ways than one. Every day spent in law school was a learning that helped me grow both personally and professionally. I can easily and confidently say that my batch (Batch of 2011) was the most privileged one to have been taught by some of the best faculty members across law schools in India.
How were you various internship experiences when in law school?
My internship experiences were quite diverse and inspiring. I used to intern every semester, in fact most of us used to, as a certain number of internships were also mandatory in law school. We used to break after every semester for close to five to six weeks and I preferred utilising every such break by interning. By the end of 5 years, I had 13 internships in total starting from State Human Rights Commission, NGO, company to law firms like Trilegal, Lakshmi Kumaran &Shridharan, Dua Associates, Holla & Holla Advocates and so on.
In your opinion, how important are extra-curricular activities are for a law student? Do you feel these are activities that should left to the discretion of students or be partaken mandatorily?
I personally think co-curricular and extra-curricular activities are quite important and play a huge role in developing a person’s personality and outlook irrespective of whether the person is a law student or not. Having said that, from my personal experience, it is particularly beneficial for a law student to participate in co-curricular activities such as mooting, different styles of debating, writing and presenting papers at various forums for various reasons including improving and enhancing your research, drafting and oratory skills, which are quite important in a lawyer’s life, irrespective of whether you choose to be a corporate lawyer or litigating lawyer. Also, participating and doing well in these activities alongside academics gives you the much needed exposure, increases confidence, adds to your personality and reflects well in your resume. Some of these activities also prepare you for your professional life ahead to a certain extent.
So far as your question on whether these activities should be taken up mandatorily is concerned, I think everyone is grown up enough in law school to know what is good for them and what is not and hence to each their own. However, I would personally recommend everyone to be active in law school and at least take up one such co-curricular/extra-curricular activity that you really like or have always wanted to take up…it could be anything-sports, music, debating, theatre, mooting, publishing papers. Not only for the reasons that I have cited above, but also because this is the ideal time to pursue anything that you are passionate about. Also, I believe one needs some sort of recreation constantly and pursuing extra-curricular/co-curricular activities does not only take care of that but also channelizes your energy in the right direction. For me that activity was mooting and I think I evolved with every moot that I participated in, both, personally and professionally. Also each time I represented my law school and won moot court competitions, it gave me an unmatchable high.
Soon after graduation you joined SRGR Law Offices as an Associate. How did your appointment take place? How would you describe your experience?
By the time I was in my fifth year of law school, I was certain that I wanted to start my career with a law firm- thanks to the multiple internships I had undertaken by then. So I applied to a few law firms in Delhi, SRGR Law Offices being one of them. Subsequently I was called for an interview and soon after that I got an offer to join them.
My first job was at SRGR Law Offices and it was a wonderful experience working there. The partners of the firm are not just extremely knowledgeable but also grounded and approachable. I worked in their general corporate law team and did a lot of work relating to power and infrastructure laws, FDI, FEMA and so on. I also got to do a lot of drafting and reviewing of various commercial agreements. It was a great learning place for me as a fresher.
Generally the first year after graduation is the most defining time of a fresh law graduate. What would you suggest a fresh law graduate should do to hold spirit and utilise the opportunities available?
No matter how well and how many subjects you are taught in law school, your professional life as a lawyer is drastically different from that of law school. As a fresher, it takes time to sink that in. It is important to have an open and positive mind in your first job so as to make your learning optimum. Also, one needs to be patient and treat every job assigned no matter how big or small equally important and give it their best. Being a fresher, one should be particularly dedicated towards work so as to learn extensively and gain the trust of seniors to handle bigger transactions and responsibilities.
Thereafter you left SRGR to join Archer & Angel, Advocates and Legal Consultants. What led to this shift in your professional portfolio?
I was planning on doing my masters in law from the US in early 2012 but decided to defer it by a few years. In the interim, I got an interview call from Archer & Angel, Advocates and Legal Consultants for a position in their Mumbai Office. I was not actively looking to move out but decided to take the interview nevertheless and ended up liking the profile offered to me during my interview. Also, I always wanted to work in Mumbai (it being the financial capital of India and the hub for corporate lawyers) so I decided to take up the opportunity and it was absolutely worth it.
You have published a lot of papers in various prestigious journals. How should one go about writing papers and getting the same published?
The first step towards publishing papers is to identify the broad topics/subjects of your interest and then look for journals that publish papers on those particular subjects. Once you have identified a reputed journal that covers your area of interest, peruse the guidelines and the instructions including the format, style of citation, eligibility and structure well and ensure that you understand and abide by all of it while writing the paper.
It is important to research extensively, narrow down your topic and get the structure and flow of the paper right in your mind so as to execute it. Further, ensure that the content including your view comes out clearly and does not contradict or confuse the reader. It goes without saying that the ideas will flow better and there may be several changes in your draft structure once you start penning down your thoughts and incorporating it in your paper/article. Nevertheless, it’s always good to have a basic draft structure in place before you start, no matter how many revisions it may have to go through eventually.
So far as getting your work published is concerned, different journals/publications have different criteria for selection. Some journals may require you to submit an abstract of your paper first, review the same and then decide whether they would like you to work on the complete paper. The word limit of these abstracts could vary anywhere from 200 to 500 words for different journals. Then, there are journals, which would straight away want to review your paper on the topic and decide whether they would want to publish it or revert with their comments and suggest revising the paper or discard it outright.
How did paper publishing and other co-curricular activities help you in acquiring skills that are important for a successful legal career?
Mooting, publishing papers and presenting papers at various national and international conferences have helped me tremendously in my legal career. I would like to reiterate that research, drafting and oratory skills are extremely important in the legal profession and my active participation in these co-curricular activities have most definitely helped me in enhancing these skills and my knowledge base. Also, participating in these activities makes you a more confident person and lets confess it one certainly enjoys the laurels and recognition that comes along with it. Last but not the least, in hindsight I realise that having these credentials in your resume leave an impact on the recruiters as one can gauge a lot about you as a person, your skills, your strength, motivation, personality, interests, efforts and characteristics through the activities that interest you. Separately, for those who are planning on doing their LL.M from abroad, having these credentials in your application certainly makes a difference and gives you an edge over others.
Currently you work as a Legal Consultant at PricewaterhouseCoopers, India. What made you choose this particular avenue? How did your appointment at PwC take place?
Having worked for close to three years with law firms, I was keen on exploring the work culture and work profile offered to lawyers at consultancy firms. Last year, I decided to make a shift from law firm and sent my application to a few consultancy firms. I was fortunate enough to receive a call for interview from PwC, Mumbai where I had three rounds of interview within two weeks, out of which the last round was with the partner, post which I was made an offer to join PwC.
We would love to hear about your work profile. What is a normal workday like?
I am a part of the Risk Advisory team at PwC. My work profile includes setting up of compliance framework for clients from different sectors, drafting of governance level policies for different clients, reviewing agreements for clients across sectors, identification of risks (legal and commercial) and advising on risk mitigation and so on. My work profile constitutes a good mix of research and drafting. It also includes meeting and interacting with clients, understanding their business needs, models and operations in order to add value and deliver well.
Every day at work is unpredictable which is what makes it both challenging and interesting. There is a lot of multitasking required on a daily basis as you may be working on multiple projects/assignments at a time. Therefore, time management is crucial as there are stringent deadlines to be met more often than not and you have to be on your feet constantly.
Are you allowed to interact with clients?
Yes, as stated earlier I am allowed to interact with clients. In fact meeting and interacting with clients, understanding their business needs, models and operations is a part of my work profile.
Tell us about a pinnacle case which you were a part of. What steps do you take to prepare for a difficult case?
I cannot discuss a specific case for more reasons than one, including confidentiality of course. However, there are multiple challenging instances that you are faced with on a regular basis and it feels good to look back and know that you handled it well and tactfully.
I personally think that no matter how hard you try, you cannot really prepare in advance for a difficult case (except may be begin your research in advance) unless it is a repeat and if it is a repeat then it is no longer difficult! Different assignments may pose different challenges and not all challenges can be apprehended in advance, so more often than not you are required to think on your feet when faced with an assignment specific challenge.
How do you keep yourself abreast with latest industry news and trends?
I try and spend at least half an hour every day browsing through legal blogs and news websites etc. to keep myself abreast with latest industry news and updates. Also, being a part of the industry, you end up having a lot of friends, peers and batch mates working in different sectors, law firms etc. and end up knowing important updates from each other, which is quite helpful. Being a lawyer, the nature of your work also demands a lot of reading for different assignments and you inadvertently end up knowing things.
What were the biggest hurdles and challenges in the first few months? How did you deal with them?
Once you have worked for a couple of years, the challenge is not so much in understanding your work and deliverables but in understanding how the organisation that you work for, functions. Therefore, just like in any other organisation, a substantial amount of time was spent in understanding the protocols at PwC in the first few months. This exercise is also important as things at work become easy and smooth after that.
What is the procedure to apply for recruitment at PwC?
You could visit the career section on the website, look out for the relevant vacancy and apply online by creating an account and filling in your details. If shortlisted, the Human Capital team of PwC will revert to you after screening your application.
Is there any other tip you would like to give to our budding professionals?
Once you have chosen law as your career, be certain of the line of practice that you would want to pursue after graduating (be it litigation, academia, law firm, in-house counsel, LPO or anything else). Internships and frequent interactions with your seniors and professors will help you identify your area of interest. Therefore, it is important to take internships seriously in law school and try and explore as much during the tenure.
Once you have identified your area of interest (which you may in all probability by the end of fourth year in law school), you should then try and work towards it by streamlining your remaining internships. Also, every fresher entering the profession should avoid having preconceived notions and give it some time to get acclimatised to the work life. It is important to have an open mind to enhance learning and treat every work equally important, no matter how big or small. Reading regularly and keeping yourself abreast with latest amendments and change in law is extremely crucial for a lawyer and so inculcating the habit of reading in early days of your career will be useful. As learning is a continuous journey, it is important to take your profession seriously and work continuously towards increasing your knowledge base.
Rimali Batra graduated from ILS Law College, Pune in 2010. After graduation, she worked at ICICI Bank’s Corporate Banking and Litigation team in New Delhi for a year. Thereafter, she pursued a BCL degree at the University of Oxford. After completing BCL, she joined Jindal Global Law School as a Research Associate. She subsequently accepted a job offer from J Sagar Associate’s Regulatory and Policy team and after continuing there for a while she went on to join her present office at the Regulatory team of Trilegal.
In this interview she talks about:
Reading BCL at Oxford and tips on scholarships
Being a Research Associate at JGLS
Working at JSA and moving over to Trilegal
Most of readers are budding and enthusiastic lawyers, how would you like to introduce yourself to them?
I was born and raised in Delhi. I did my schooling from Montfort Senior Secondary School located in Ashok Vihar, New Delhi. Thereafter I went to ILS Law College, Pune to do my graduation in Law. After ILS Law College, I worked with ICICI Bank’s Corporate Banking and Litigation team in New Delhi. A year and three months later, I went to University of Oxford to read law. After BCL, I joined Jindal Law School, Sonipat as a research associate and worked there for three semesters. During the second half of 2014, I joined J Sagar Associate’s Regulatory and Policy team and worked on matters concerning power (Electricity Act, 2003). I was with Mr. Amit Kapur’s team in JSA for a year and have now moved to Mr. Sitesh Mukherjee’s Regulatory team in Trilegal. I have been at Trilegal for five months now. That’s been my journey thus far.
You have had many interesting career switches from starting out as a banking lawyer then being a Research Associate at JGLS to your current profile at Trilegal. What all do you consider before taking these decisions?
One is of course bound to be surprised at the changing courses of my career paths but then it was all a part of the plan, which I hope the readers will see as this interview answers unfold. All decisions that I have made till date connect, and connect wonderfully.
I am a curious individual and don’t shy from taking risks. I have always been experimental in nature and challenges attract me and hold me. Call it my weakness, call it my strength. I believe that I perform well when I multi-task (It’s like enjoying the main course with some side dishes). That is how it has been since school days. For instance, in school I did not just study hard and well, but also trained myself to be a good basketball player (played national and international tournaments), a praiseworthy debater (both at the inter-school level and state level), a leader (school head girl) and a decent quizzer (inter-school level). Similarly in College, I did not settle for just being among the top 10 rank holder for all five years in the Pune University (ILS was one among the 20 odd colleges affiliated to the Pune University), but also represented ILS at various national and international level moot competitions, elocutions and paper presentations. At Oxford too, I read the BCL alongside playing basketball for the University of Oxford. And now whenever I have time and I am not working, I am doing either of the following – pro-bono advisory on energy laws and medical law and ethics, reading books, stock trading / following the market, writing and publishing stories or on issues of law that interest me, teaching English to underprivileged kids at home on weekends, part-time teaching at law schools or travelling.
Did you have lawyers in your family or in close proximity?
A little about my family: There are no lawyers in my family (or in extended family for that matter). My father hailed from Sonipat and my mother came to India in my Nani’s womb from Pakistan. My father was a businessmen and my mother assisted him in his business. He was and is my role model. He had no basic formal education and left school in class VI to pursue his dream of setting up a business. My mother was a national level table-tennis player and a B.Com graduate from University of Delhi.
My elder sister, who is a gold medallist, is a Human Resources manager with a renowned company in New Delhi and my younger brother, who is also a gold medallist in B.Com (H) from University of Delhi is running his own business and takes care of dad’s business. I think I inherited my mother’s sports skills and reading habits and my father’s experimental, risk bearing and helping nature. I believed that a little confusion and nervousness is always good but fear is destructive, and therefore I aim at balancing my fears and my weaknesses with my confidence and strengths, as I move forward. I also leave achievements behind and look at them as a thing of the past and aspire to achieve a little more as days go by. So, in a nut-shell, law and basketball are my passion and I am a learner and observer at heart.
Why did you decide to be a lawyer? How was your law school experience at ILS, Pune?
As far as my memory goes, I sealed the decision of being a lawyer in Class Xth – even before I decided whether to take commerce or science. My decision was based on an aptitude test that was conducted in school moral science class. Thereafter I started adding biographies of famous lawyers to my reading rack alongside the already placed biographies of basketball players. I also read a lot of John Grisham. That marked the beginning. In class XII, I joined LST for preparation. I did not fill any other forms (B.Com, Eco (H) etc) but gave entrance tests for N-Schools. At one point in time, when I did not get through Symbiosis, I almost lost hope for making it to any other N-School, but then when I made it NALSAR, I regained my strength. I also made it to ILS on merit and on sports quota. Now, the decision there was simple, but I got swayed by the India Today ranking and picked ILS over NALSAR, as the ranking placed ILS at number 1 in 2005.
ILS for me was a place of opportunities. Located in the heart of the city and walking distance from Symbiosis, ASCL, Ferguson College, FTII and Gokhale Institute of Political Science and Economics, it offered a vibrant student crowd and a bundle of opportunities. My learning was not limited to the classrooms of ILS. I participated in moots that enlarged my frame of learning, pursued diplomas in subjects that were not taught as a part of the academic curriculum and interned with NGO’s/human rights organisations in Pune. During college, I successfully completed diplomas in International Arbitration, Cyber Laws, International Business Laws, Securities Laws and Medical Law and Criminology. I was one of the speakers in the team that represented University of Pune at University of Oxford in the quarter-final rounds of the Oxford IPR Moot Competition, 2009. My first publication was on ‘domestic violence’ in the college journal (in 2007), followed by a piece on ‘separation of powers’ in the Ambedkar Law School journal (2009). During college, I also participated in cultural events like poetry writing and recitation, signing and painting. And of course I continued to play Basketball at the Deccan Gymkhana, since our college did not have a functional basketball court. I made some great friends at ILS. Overall, I believe I was able to paint my canvas with so many colours because I was in a college that gave me so much time and space to explore and go looking for opportunities, if they refuse to come to you.
When people say “Law school”, they look no further than the National Law Universities. As a graduate of ILS, Pune have you faced any such bias? What would be your advice to students in ILS?
I think the trends are changing a bit. Especially because of so many law colleges mushrooming across the country. ILS has a legacy of being one of the oldest institutions imparting legal knowledge. What ILS lacks is professional training. Meeting my counterparts from N-Schools, always encouraged me to imbibe in me the skills required to think, talk and approach life like a professional. Bias does exit but not all of us have to face it. ILS has a reputation for producing some good litigators however has not earned the same reputation in the corporate world, thereby making it difficult for kids in ILS to crack competitive corporate jobs. I recall an incident during my first job where a senior of my team, while praising my work, introduced me to be from NLS. On my prompting, he corrected himself and toned up his praises even more (considering he was surprised!). I would advise students from ILS to do additional courses and good internships because only studying law at ILS and getting a degree is not going to be enough.
My advice to students of ILS would be two-fold
(a) focus on academics in order to score well. Do not consider classroom teaching the end all of academics, that’s just the starting point; and
(b) Make the most of the time at hand. Involve yourself in activities/course or additional degree’s that interest you. ILS makes space and time for you to incorporate that in your schedule. Most importantly, do both with the sole objective of learning.
Students can consider requesting administration to take notice of events, moots and competitions that interest them and be rest assured the college will do its part. Student may also invite luminaries in the legal fraternity for lectures and seminars. Basically, what a student in ILS needs is the ‘instinct to initiate’ and ‘go towards opportunities’.
Please describe the internships that you did in college.
For internships, I always chose New Delhi, because this is where home was and logistics were easy to manage. My first internship was in the District Courts of Delhi where I read and researched on matters of criminal law and property related disputes. Thereafter, I did my second internship in Delhi High Court where I worked on matters on the original as well as the appellate side on various subjects. In my third year I did internships with Senior Advocates of Supreme Court. I then did an internship with litigation teams of two law firms and my final internship was with the Law Commission of India where I wrote a thesis (which retired into a book) on Constitutional validity of Medical Termination in India. I planned my internships and explored possible avenues for a lawyer in order to better understand my calling. By the end of five years, I was sure of being a litigator (at the least) not sure of the subject area that interests me.
You worked as a Legal Manager at ICICI Bank. How does a typical day at ICICI work out? What were your main tasks and what responsibility did you undertake?
ICICI Bank was my first employer. I was placed through college. I was based out of the Delhi office (I asked for Delhi as my location during my interview). I worked in no specific vertical, but was primarily doing litigation for/against the Bank. Anything and everything was a part of my profile. On a day I would be doing ECB lending, security creations and on another I would be researching and preparing written submissions for matters pending in the consumer forum or the Supreme Court and on yet another day I would be doing retail banking advisory. Having such a profile made it interesting to work in ICICI. I worked there for a year and a half, before I decided to do a masters.
How did your appointment take place at ICICI Bank? What kinds of questions were asked at your interview for ICICI bank?
ICICI follows a three step procedure, shortlisting on the basis of CV’s, followed by a Group Discussion and finally a personal interview. The Group Discussion revolves around a hypothetical problem relating to law of contracts and consumer protection. The personal interview is primarily based on the resume and a few HR based questions.
Please tell us about your decision to do an LL.M and how you went about choosing the program and university.
I decided to pursue my masters from Oxford ever since I visited the University in 2009 for an IPR Moot Competition. On my return, I pursued it like a dream. The advantages of doing a BCL are:
(a) it offers the students to choose a suitable combination of subjects, based on their preferences as opposed to a custom-made LLM course. So, even though I read only four subjects as part of the BCL but at the same time the rigorous workload and timelines gave me the advantage of specialising in four subjects at one time,
(b) Oxford targets on strengthening reading, breaking down complex material and articulating the same in form of legal writings/answers/tutorials. They say, don’t study BCL, you read for BCL.
What do you think clicked in your favour during the selection process for Oxford? What are the scholarships you had applied for?
I can’t answer this question with certainty. It has to be a combination of my academic performance in ILS, my statement of purpose and the write-up. Also, the fact that I assured my willingness to attend the course and pay for it, in case I did not get scholarships from Oxford, could have boosted my application. However, I did say that I will not attend if I had no scholarships at all. Other than that, achievements mentioned on my CV (like basketball, moots, diplomas etc.), my statement of purpose and my write-up may have added a little value.
How do you think a law student can build up his profile to get through to top-notch universities like Oxford?
It’s important to have a strong academic score. A rank in the law school adds value to the application. Apart from that, a student should be able to demonstrate inclination for engaging in theoretical and policy aspects of law. It is also advisable for students to have publications on their side. I remember interacting with the Dean of the University and inter alia, discussing the approach adopted by the University in considering applications from Indian law students. He talked about the law college’s ranking also being a relevant factor, apart from the academic achievements of the student.
What was your area of study during your masters at Oxford? How was the academic pressure like and did you find time to engage yourself in other activities?
I read Principles of Financial Regulations, Corporate Laws, Medical Law and Ethics and Philosophical Foundations of Common Law. The courses were rigorous and the readings ranged from being easy to intense and complex. However, I made time to be a part of the Oxford University Girl Basketball team after being shortlisted at the trials conducted at the beginning of the course. I played 4 or 5 inter-university matches and also participated in the legendry ‘Varsity Tournament’ played between Oxford and Cambridge every year.
Please tell us about the scholarships you applied to and the procedure for each.
I applied for all possible scholarships I stumbled upon during my research. I started looking for scholarships before making my application. I followed this website -governmentofindiascholarship.com. I specifically applied for Rhodes, Common Wealth Scholarship, KC Mahindra Trust, Jain Trust, Ox-Cam among others. I was awarded the KC Mahindra Trust Scholarship and the Ox-Cam Scholarships. The application procedure is a little detailed as the students need to prepare independent SOP for each and demonstrate availability of the balance funds (in case where the scholarship does not cover for everything).
The interview rounds for KC Mahindra and Ox-Cam is fairly simple and questions are primarily targeted at (a) ‘Why oxford?’ and (b) ‘What after masters?’
Additionally, I would suggest students to ask their employers or seniors they have worked with for financial assistance as some firms, seniors or employers are willing to offer funds with or without a promise from the student to come back and work with the said employer or senior.
Please describe your experience at Oxford. What were the classes and professors like?
Oxford was a scintillating experience for me. Especially, reading philosophy at Oxford gave me a deeper understanding of law, legal principles and concepts. Oxford has seminars (classroom teaching) which requires students to read before walking in. For my corporate law class I joined a group that was made by students themselves to discuss seminar questions before the seminar and help prepare better for exams.
At Oxford I was exposed to a system that takes its readings very seriously. As a Masters student, we were required to not just read hundreds of pages every week, but, to also reflect on them during our seminars. I enjoyed this practice very much and it has allowed me to hone my writing skills in the process. A typical reading list will have at least 8-10 important readings (combination of articles, case laws and policy paper series from different jurisdictions, but primarily UK and US). Professors, at best, assist as students deliberate and discuss a topic. One more thing which I found particularly interesting was the presence of an economics, finance and corporate law professor at the same time during seminars for one of my courses, namely, principles of financial regulation.
The tutorial system is quite unique. There are 4 tutorials for each subject and are spread over three semesters followed by a three hours written exam at the end of the course. I found the tutorials challenging but refreshing as they helped me assess my performance and understanding of the subject alongside attending seminars. They also helped me hone my skills of articulating my thoughts and understanding of the subject.
You switched to a pure research based career after coming from Oxford. How did this change take place? How did you get to associate yourself with Jindal Global Law School?
Academics is very close to my heart and still is. For as long as I can remember, teaching and educating has always fascinated me. When at Oxford, I heard about Jindal Law School and its dean, Dr. (Mr.) C. Raj Kumar who happens to be an alumnus of Oxford. I was given an opportunity to work as a Research Associate and lecture two courses ‘Property Laws’ and ‘Corporate Laws’. Honestly, one may see it as a switch in careers, but for me, academics fits in very well for an aspiring lawyer, especially after a masters. I also felt a dire need to re-apply and re-read my subjects, from the Indian law perspective – after I finished my masters.
Though I chose to be a litigator, I haven’t lost touch with teaching and academics (and hopefully never will). I have conducted seminars and lectured at various law schools in India, ever since I left Jindal. I am a visiting faculty with Symbiosis Law School, Noida and often visit ILS Law College for conducting week long courses, as and when time permits.
You had worked with Jyoti Sagar Associates and you are now working with Trilegal. Why this switch?
After two very fruitful and enriching years at Jindal Law School, I decide to do join regulatory litigation. I was with JSA for a year and have been with Trilegal for 5 months now and having been working on laws in the energy sector, especially the power sector. With not much precedent in the sector, the practice is demanding and engaging.
How is being a research associate or a legal manager at bank different from working at a top – notch law firm? Does the work load increase, how have you managed this transformation?
When I was in ICICI, I assisted in consumer dispute litigations for/against the bank on subjects involving ‘corporate laws’, ‘banking laws and regulations’. When at Oxford I read ‘corporate law’ and ‘financial regulations’. When at Jindal, I taught ‘corporate laws and financial regulations’. When at JSA, I put together the knowledge and experience acquired from ‘corporate laws’, ‘regulations’ and ‘litigation’; and worked hard in acquiring sector specific knowledge. Electricity/Power sector is a super-niche sector and I find it thrilling and challenging. My work at JSA was very extensive and intense. At Trilegal, I continue working on matters in the power sector with the same intensity and I enjoy it immensely.
How has the journey been so far? What are your long term goals?
For me my journey that has been the best part. The people I met, places I visited, life experiences I picked on the way, all add to me being who I am today. For today and tomorrow, I am a litigator, learner and an observer and I aspire to be perfect at what I do.
Lastly, what would be your message to a law student who wants to excel in the legal profession?
Let me quote Abraham Lincoln’s message “If you are resolutely determined to make a lawyer of yourself, the thing is more than half done already.” I echo.
When in law school, plan a little about your future. Immerse yourself in travel, cultural exchange, sports, parties and meaningful conversations, as much as possible. Don’t let your degree define your career limits. Don’t forget to explore and experiment. Take risks sometime, it adds a bitter-sweet flavour to your becoming a lawyer. If you do, then accept your failures as much as your cherish your victories.
And most importantly, keep your imagination alive.
J. Sai Deepak graduated from Anna University with Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering, after which he went on to pursue LL.B from IIT Kharagpur. After completion of law he joined Saikrishna & Associates as an Associate in 2009, where presently he has been promoted to an Associate Partner. He won the 2008 Legal Writing Competition of the International Association for the Advancement of Teaching and Research in Intellectual Property (ATRIP) as a student and writes for his blog “The Demanding Mistress”. He has also authored papers in various exemplary journals.
As a litigator at Saikrishna & Associates he led the team to many successes including the reading down of S.79(3)(b) of the Information Technology Act and the Intermediary Rules; representing Greenpeace India successfully in Tata Sons v. Greenpeace International & Anr.
In this interview we talk about:
Choosing law after completing engineering at Anna University.
Work profile at Saikrishna & Associates
Winning the 2008 Legal Writing Competition of International Association for Advancement of Teaching and Research in Intellectual Property (ATRIP)
Leading the team which represented the Internet and Mobile Association of India before the Supreme Court.
Representing Indian mobile brands such as Micromax and Intex in the suits for patent infringement filed by Ericsson
Given that most of our readers belong to the legal fraternity, how would you introduce yourself to them?
I am a first generation lawyer, an engineer-turned-general litigator with core competence in Intellectual Property Law and allied areas.
Having graduated with a Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering, what motivated you to switch streams and pursue law at IIT Kharagpur?
My dream was to pursue a Masters in Aeronautical Engineering after under-graduation, but in the penultimate semester of engineering (2005), I was in IIT Kharagpur to present a paper in a technical symposium organized by its Industrial Engineering department. It was in the inaugural speech by the then Director of IIT Kgp, Shri Shishir K. Dube, that I first heard of the new LL.B. programme which was set to commence the following year, in 2006, in IIT Kgp’s Law School known as the Rajiv Gandhi School of Intellectual Property Law. I read up more on law and realized that although I took up engineering by choice, my future lay outside of it in a profession which involved understanding and dealing with people. This was perhaps because I have always had a deep interest in history, current affairs, politics and policy and I wanted to contribute in some tangible way to at least one of these areas.
These interests, coupled with my passion for debating and public speaking, made law seem like the logical choice. The choice did not seem that logical to quite a few well-wishers. In fact, the Head of the Mechanical engineering department of my college was utterly shocked and urged me to reconsider my decision. But by then the legal bug had bitten and today I am happy I took the headlong plunge into law. As for the choice of Law School, most engineers have a soft corner for the IIT brand and this may have sub-consciously influenced my decision to study at IIT Kgp, despite the fact that the LL.B. programme was nascent.
How did you get through to the LL.B programme of IIT Kharagpur?
The LL.B. programme at IIT Kgp is limited to graduates with a first degree in science or technology or medicine. For the first batch in 2006, a Statement of Purpose had to be sent along with the application form for the entrance exam, then known as the National Aptitude Test. The Test had sections on quantitative aptitude, verbal aptitude, GK and a few fundamental questions related to the law. This was followed by a Personal Interview and candidates were selected based on cumulative scores. This being the first entrance exam for a newly established Law School, I am not sure the number of applicants was remotely comparable to other post-graduate entrances in India like GATE and CAT. I got through the entrance and the other rounds based on my preparation for engineering placements. The current process of admission to the Law School, I believe, is different.
Our readers would like to know briefly about your blogpost which made you popular in the legal fraternity. Also, what made you take up blogging as a law student?
(Sai frequently writes on his blog “The Demanding Mistress”. As a law student, his blogpost on the Bajaj-TVS patent dispute was quoted and was relied upon by a Division Bench of the Madras High Court to reverse the findings of the Single Judge.)
Blogging happened to me in a very serendipitous way and largely because of dearth of opportunities to moot. Since we were students of the first batch of a fledgling Law School, there wasn’t a mooting culture back then and it was a challenge to kick-start one given the teething troubles anynew Law School typically faces. So three of us, Nikhil Ranjan, Ashwani Balayan and I,thought it would help to organize a moot court competition (“Verdict”) in our second year in our Law School (2008) and learn from the participants by observing them moot. In the process of inviting people to judge the moot, I was directed by Yogesh Pai (now a Professor at NLU,Delhi) to SpicyIP. I came across a few posts on the Bajaj-TVS patent dispute. However, no techno-legal analysis had been undertaken in those posts.Being a mechanical engineer with a tentative understanding of the law, I volunteered to write my first post on SpicyIP analysing the issues in dispute, keeping both technical and legal jargon to the minimum.In the process, I realized that blogging, and writing in general helped me unclutter the thoughts in my head and helped me articulate my views with greater clarity. Also, compared to mooting which requires a fair amount of resources on a regular basis which I couldn’t have afforded, all that blogging needed was access to the internet and the will to read up and write.Importantly, I felt blogging gave me access to a much wider audience. All these got me hooked to it.
After my graduation from Law School when I was back home preparing to leave for Delhi to join the profession, I got a call from a friend of my mine from Law School, Arindam Roy Chowdhury, who congratulated me for being cited in a decision by the Madras High Court, which I dismissed as a prank. When I opened my email account later in the day, it was flooded with congratulatory mails and messages. It turned out that my maiden blogpost had indeed been relied upon to vacate the interim injunction granted against TVS Motors. I was told (although this hasn’t been verified) that this was one of the few instances where a law student’s work had been relied upon by a Court.
In December 2010, I founded my own blog “The Demanding Mistress” where I continue to write on innovation, IP Laws, Competition Law and policy.
What role do publications play in the life of a lawyer? What, in your view, are the few most important skills that law students should strive to acquire in order to write papers/articles effectively?
(As a law student, Sai won the 2008 Legal Writing Competition of the International Association for the Advancement of Teaching and Research in Intellectual Property (ATRIP). He has also authored various papers in many reputed journals such as Max Planck Institute’s International Review of Intellectual Property Law and Competition law.)
I think clear writing is a skill that every lawyer is expected to possess and must possess. Writing really tests the degree to which one has internalized a subject and its spirit, because the clarity with which you write is reflective of your grasp of the subject. Publications in peer-reviewed journals convey the message to prospective employers and clients that you are confident of articulating your views and subjecting them to the scrutiny of a better-informed audience. It also prepares you for legal drafting when you start practicing.
I strongly believe voracious and rigorous reading is imperative for effective writing. If you write more than you read, your writing will suffer from paucity of depth and eventually you are bound to run out of topics to write on.Also, a lawyer must know how to cater to different kinds of audiences. After all, writing for a newspaper on a legal issue is not the same as writing on a specialist blog. Importantly, when a lawyer reads or writes, his/her individual personality and training as a lawyer must come to the fore.
Soon after graduation, you joined Saikrishna & Associates in 2009 and were made Associate Partner recently. How did you secure your appointment?
My entry into the Firm was not through campus placements. In fact, I sat out of the campus placements because at that time, no litigation firm approached the Law School for recruitment. Fortunately, two things happened- first, through a combination of circumstances in which the founder of SpicyIP, Shamnad Basheer, had a role to play, I was working on the Firm’s first two patent matters in my final year in Law School. So Mr. Saikrishna Rajagopal had an opportunity to assess the quality of my work and was kind enough to offer a position in the Firm’s litigation team. Second, around the time I graduated, Mr. Gopal Subramanium, who was the Solicitor General then, too had offered a position in his Chambers. Since I wanted to gain experience in trial practice and was already familiar with Mr. Saikrishna’s style of functioning, I accepted Mr. Saikrishna’s offer.
For a law student, it’s very difficult to think of becoming an Associate Partner under six years of joining the profession. What would you say helped you gain recognition?
I’d largely credit my learning to the opportunities Mr. Saikrishna has been large-hearted enough to share. He believes in teaching through empowerment, which is at the heart of the Firm’s culture. Although this means greater responsibility in the initial years, it helps you understand the ropes of the profession faster. Plus, what I am particularly thankful for is the freedom I have, to write on any issue I wish to, so long as there is no conflict of interest. This freedom matters a lot to me personally and professionally, and I am aware of the fact that this is hard to find in a law firm set up.
I would be remiss if I did not mention how fortunate I am to have had brilliant colleagues right from my first year who enjoy discussions on the law. No question or issue is dismissed as being “too academic” or trivial. It’s a very vibrant atmosphere which is what attracts interns and makes them want to be part of the Firm. Also, one of the key strengths of the Firm is the camaraderie shared by its members, which makes one look forward to go to the Court or office each day. To me, each of these factors affects individual success when you work in a law firm.
What does an Associate Partner at a Law Firm like Saikrishna and Associates do? What falls within the scope of your responsibility? Tell us about a typical work day.
At least 3-4 days in a week, I am in the High Court for the better part of the day when the litigation season is on. After I am done with my matters for the day, I usually stay back in the Chamber to prepare for the next day or to send out opinions to Clients or to meet them. The advantage of the Firm’s flexible work hours is that one’s time is productively spent in attending to work regardless of where one is, instead of wasting it in commutation. Apart from handling matters that have been assigned to me, I contribute my mite to diversifying the litigation practice of the Firm by taking up matters which may have nothing to do with IP at all. For instance, I have a personal interest in taking up criminal matters, particularly those that relate to economic offenses, before CBI Special Courts. Fortunately for me, the Firm encourages such initiatives and my efforts on this front have thus far been reasonably successful.
You have a few landmark judgments to your credit, two of which are Tata Sons v. Greenpeace and Basmati Geographical Indication case. Kindly elaborate in brief on these two cases for the benefit of our readers.
We were engaged by Greenpeace India to represent it in Tata Sons v. Greenpeace International & Anr. in 2010, which was my second year of practice. The Suit revolves around Greenpeace India’s use of the Tata trademark in its Pacman-styled game Tata v. Turtles as part of its awareness campaign on the dangers posed by the Dhamra Port in Odisha to the nesting grounds of Olive Ridley turtles. Tata Sons alleged infringement of its trademark and defamation. The case throws up fascinating issues relating to interplay between free speech and IP rights, apart from an examination of the defense of fair comment under Indian law to an allegation of defamation. In January 2011, Justice Ravindra Bhat dismissed Tata Sons’ prayer for interim injunction and upheld the defense of fair comment on the issue of defamation and Greenpeace India’s right to use the Tata trademark in exercise of its free speech. Subject to correction, I think this decision was the first of its kind in an IP context in India and has been hailed as a landmark in several advanced IP jurisdictions. The matter is set to be taken up for final arguments in the near future.
The Basmati Geographical Indication case relates to oppositions filed by the State of Madhya Pradesh and private entities from MP to the application for GI on Basmati filed by Agricultural and Processed Food Products Export Development Authority (APEDA). The oppositions were based on non-inclusion of the State of Madhya Pradesh as part of Basmati-cultivating regions in India. On December 31, 2013, the GI Registry upheld the contention of the opponents and directed the inclusion of the State of Madhya Pradesh in the GI Application on grounds that APEDA’s basis for identification of Basmati cultivating areas in India was flawed and not rooted in history and facts. The decision has been appealed against by APEDA before the Intellectual Property Appellate Board (IPAB), which is pending adjudication.
You are also representing Indian mobile brands such as Micromax and Intex in the suits for patent infringement filed by Ericsson. Could you give our readers a broad overview of the suits?
Broadly the suits relate to Ericsson’s allegation of infringement of what it claims are “Standard Essential Patents” relating to the GSM standards used in mobile telecommunication. The validity of the patents asserted and the claim of essentiality have been challenged by the defendants. Critically, the conduct of the patentee has come under scrutiny by the Competition Commission of India for prima facie abuse of dominance under Section 4 of the Competition Act, 2002. The suits and the proceeding before the CCI are sub-judice. These suits raise issues which Indian Courts and the CCI have never had the occasion to deal with in the past. In the process of handling these matters, we have discovered several facets of IP and anti-trust law and their relationship. Personally, the learning has been great.
Section 79(3)(b) of the IT Act has been read down by the Court in the Shreya Singhal decision. Could you share with our readers the significance of the decision for internet companies?
(Sai led the team which represented the Internet and Mobile Association of India before the Supreme Court in the constitutional challenge to the intermediary liability regime under Section 79(3)(b) of the Information Technology Act and the Intermediary Rules. Mr. Saikrishna Rajagopal was the counsel for the petitioners.)
Ours was the only petition which challenged the constitutional vires of Section 79(3)(b) of the IT Act. Under the original provision prior to it being read down by the Hon’ble Supreme Court, an intermediary was expected to take down content based on “actual knowledge” received from private parties of the unlawfulness of the content hosted by it. Given the vague nature of the term “actual knowledge” and the onerous obligation cast on intermediaries by the use of the term, the Apex Court read this down to mean actual knowledge of a Court order which directed take down of the content. This ensures that intermediaries do not have to act like Courts and adjudicate on the legality of content hosted on their sites.
The second limb of the challenge was to the ability of the Government to seek take down of content which was used for commission of an “unlawful act”. The term “unlawful act” went beyond the limitations imposed by Article 19(2) of the Constitution on the Government’s power to curb free speech and expression. Consequently, the scope of “unlawful act” in the context of free speech was limited to categories of prohibitions spelt out in Article 19(2).
The reading down of Section 79(3)(b)is significant owing to the integral nature of intermediaries to the internet ecosystem and the role they place as disseminators of free speech and expression of internet users. Importantly, certainty in the application of the law is important for any business, and the business of intermediaries is no exception to this requirement.
How does it feel to have landmark judgments to your credit? Do you think achievements like this can change one’s recognition drastically?
It certainly feels good to have been part of such decisions. I’d like to clarify that each of these decisions is the consequence of the collective effort of the team.
Yes, decisions such as these help increase one’s credibility as a litigator and make it relatively easier to be considered for matters involving higher stakes. That said, regardless of the outcome, what truly helps improve one’s credibility and visibility is the quality of preparation and execution in the Court since the result in beyond your control.
You have been invited by several forums in India and abroad to present your views on IP developments in India. Please share your experience in speaking on various platforms.
Based on my experience, I think, similar to writing, the nature of the audience must be taken into account when you address a forum. I have also realized that to connect effectively with a non-legal audience, it is important to keep the legalese at a minimum and highlight the broad policy implications of a legal issue. Also, as litigators, it helps to listen to multiple viewpoints from members of the industry, academics and policy analysts because these may come handy in lucidly putting forth a complex issue before the Court.
Would you say you have “specialized” in IP law? What made you interested in the same? How do you say one can gain expertise in IP Law? What does it take to be a good IP lawyer?
I’d never say that I have “specialized” in IP Law, which is why I introduced myself as an engineer-turned-general litigator with core competence in Intellectual Property Law and allied areas. For me, IP law is just another branch of commercial law with its own peculiarities like any other area of the law. The path to attain proficiency in IP law is similar to any other branch of law, which is to read as widely and deeply as possible, and to develop the ability to apply the law to the factual matrix of a given case. Critically, for anyone to acquire expertise in commercial litigation, strong foundations in property jurisprudence and common law are a must, along with command over procedural law.
How different has the three-year program been when it comes to internships? How are internships helpful for a law student?
Since ours was a three year program, there weren’t as many opportunities to intern as in a five year integrated program. Plus, I never interned in a law firm because I had very little understanding of the concept of a firm and the option didn’t sound great to me. However, I did make it a point to acquire diverse experiences by first interning at IIM Ahmedabad and National innovation Foundation, followed by GE’s John F. Welch Technology Centre in Bangalore. These internships helped me understand the theoretical and practical aspects of innovation. I do believe internships, if rightly chosen, help a student understand her/his own strengths, weaknesses and career aspirations.
What are the qualities which Saikrishna & Associates look for in a typical CV? What do you feel makes an intern stand out and is very important for him/her to do to have a chance of getting a call back or even a PPO?
At Saikrishna & Associates, the pedigree of the Law School does not matter, nor do the achievements claimed in a CV. What matters to us are initiative, conceptual clarity, the ability to write/draft crisply and the ability to marshal arguments in support of a proposition through research and logic. If a student performs well on at least some of these counts, subject to vacancy, we offer a position in the Firm. Most of our litigators have come through internships and not campus placements.
What would be your advice to students interested in litigation?
For anyone who wishes to take up litigation, I’d say patience and hard work are equally important because unlike transactional practice, litigation takes time to reward. But when it does, the thrill is just incomparable. In a nutshell, treat litigation as a marathon run and not a 100-metre dash. Also, it would help to be comfortable with general areas of practice and be good at atleast one area of practice, which is not the same as restricting oneself to a specialist area.
