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  • Ashish and Vagish Kumar Singh, Founding Partners, Capstone Legal, on starting up with independent litigation right after graduation

    Ashish and Vagish Kumar Singh, Founding Partners, Capstone Legal, on starting up with independent litigation right after graduation

    Ashish and Vagish Kumar Singh graduated from NLSIU Bangalore in 2012 and 2013 respectively. Right after their graduation they decided to take the plunge and start-up.

    Founded in 2012, Capstone Legal is a leading law firm based out of Jaipur practicing law at Supreme Court of India, Rajasthan High Court, Gujarat High Court and Bombay High Court. The firm has handled over 400 cases in the past two years ranging from Tax disputes amounting to several hundred millions of rupees to pro bono work for India’s leading NGO’s.

    In this interview, the partners of Capstone Legal discuss about:

    • Building a successful law firm without any legal background;
    • Attracting clientele and performance in Court; and
    • Advice to prospective litigators and mooters.

     

    How would you like to introduce yourself to the readers? Please tell us something about your childhood and background?

    Ashish: I am the managing partner of a law firm called ‘Capstone Legal’ and graduated from NLSIU Bangalore in the year 2012. I am a litigating advocate who usually appears before Supreme Court, Rajasthan High Court, Gujarat High Court and Bombay High Court. My father is a retired civil servant and my mother is a retired school lecturer. I spent my childhood in several cities of Rajasthan due to transferable nature of my father’s job. My father has been always been an inspiration for me and both me and Vagish Ji have tried to borrow his Honesty and hard work in life and profession.

    Vagish: Ashish Ji is my elder brother and I Joined Litigation owing to his guidance and support. I graduated from NLSIU Bangalore in the year 2013 and joined as a Partner of Capstone Legal. We are one firm which has not one but two managing partners.  I started litigation at the Rajasthan High Court and I appear before the Supreme Court, Rajasthan High Court and various Tribunals in Jaipur and New Delhi. As Ashish Ji said our parents were in Government Service and hence from a very early age we were exposed to Governance and Law. I remember accompanying my father to NREGA works and “Governance at your doorstep” camps. These practical insights into law, government and the State guided me throughout Law School and even now as a Litigator. Even though both of us did our Senior Secondary as students of Science, our interest was always towards contemporary Social and Political issues.

     

    Why did you opt for the field of law? Do you have any legal background?

    Ashish: As my father was working with the government, I got an opportunity to observe the functioning of the executive & the judiciary which made me realize the importance of the profession of law. However, the main reason was that I was averse to the concept of working under a boss and it was my sincere belief that a career in law can give me the freedom to work on my own terms.

    We do not have any legal background. No one in my family, except my brother Vagish has a law degree.

    Vagish: My inspiration to join Law was undoubtedly motivated by the constant insights which I had by interacting with Ashish Ji, when he was in his first year of law school. He painted such an exciting and challenging picture of the Course, that when I gave my senior secondary examinations albeit as a science student, I had decided that I would opt for the field of law. Our upbringing also had a major role to play in this decision and I couldn’t agree more with Ashish Ji, our parents guidance had always encouraged us to observe and critique governance both from the perspective of a layman as well as a Judge or an Administrator. Law is not a subject either taught or practiced in isolation, it has great social, political and economic ramifications. The socio-political relevance of the subject had always fascinated me as a student and I was lucky to be guided and supported by my family in joining law.

     

    What were your objectives and plans in the preliminary years of the law school?

    Ashish: During the preliminary years at NLS, my objective was to become an entrepreneur. Thanks to our extraordinary faculty members, subjects like Economics always took my fancy. Needless to state, an understanding of law and procedure is vital for a business to survive and thrive.  However over the years I was lucky to have experienced some Great Internships under Mr. R.P. Singh (Senior Advocate) and Hon’ble Justice S.S. Kothari as he then was. I became inclined towards joining litigation in my third year at law school.

    Vagish: When I had joined law School, my only objective and goal as far back as I can remember was to join the Civil Services. I had been inspired by my Father and the manner in which people appreciated his hard work and contributions. However by the time I completed my fourth year of Law School, litigation appeared to be an exciting and challenging profession. That coupled with the fact, that through litigation I could possibly contribute to the bar and the society without any intervention by political or social elements.

     

    Have the NLUs been able to produce socially relevant lawyers? What is your take on this, given that many chose to take up firm jobs?

    Ashish: Taking up a job at a law firm cannot be the touchstone to decide whether a lawyer is socially relevant or not. There are several law firms & lawyers who take up pro-bono work and are engaged in social activities. It depends on one’s ability to find time to do something which helps the society. Moreover, some people choose to support social initiatives by providing indispensable financial help which according to me is an important contribution to the society.

    Vagish: All the National Law Universities have contributed immensely in producing socially relevant lawyers. In my opinion, Social relevance is often erroneously equated with only pro bono, policy making or individual litigation. The efficient functioning of the Industry, market and other financial entities is equally if not more vital and relevant for the society as any other job. I am glad and confident that the fate of Corporate India is in the hands of my Learned Seniors and Colleagues. Their contribution cannot be ignored in any manner whatsoever.

     

    Did you focus only on the Academics in the college life? How did you excel in the Academics? How’s the Academic Pressure in NLSIU Bangalore?

    Ashish: My focus was on academics while studying in Law School but I was a part of several hostel committees due to which I had a chance to work closely with the university administration. I was good at academics but I always scored more marks in my research papers than written examinations.

    Academic pressure at NLS Bangalore is high but one gets to learn a lot from the faculty and seniors. We had the country’s best faculty and I am lucky to have been taught by such legends in law.

    Vagish: The academic pressure in NLSIU is immense, you are constantly haunted by the fact that you are surrounded by the country’s best and brightest legal minds. But that in my opinion is also the greatest incentive and strength of Law School. Due to that competition and intellectual stimuli my primary focus was always on academics. However as Ashish Ji said we were involved in the Hostel Committees and worked closely with the College Administration on various issues. I always enjoyed participating in and helping in organising ‘Spiritus’ which is NLSIUs sports festival and played some Hockey and Volleyball for the University. It was always my endeavour to stick to all timelines stringently and attend classes irrespective of bad health or otherwise.

     

    What were your area of interest while you were in Law School? And how did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?

    Ashish: I had done my senior secondary as a Science student and therefore when I joined law school, introduction to subjects like Economics and Sociology fascinated me. I enjoyed reading international authors on Contract Law and Transfer of Property. However as soon as we were introduced to Commercial Laws and Taxation Laws the expanse of these laws and the beautiful legal principles governing them, took my fancy.  During my fifth year in law school i spent long hours in the library studying and discussing Laws related to Arbitration, Taxation and International Trade Laws. One of my favourite subjects has to be Litigation Advocacy, which was taught in the final year.

    Vagish: In my first two years in Law School I enjoyed subjects such as Sociology, History and Political Science. I was amazed by the manner in which all these factors affect the formation and enforcement of laws in our country. My primary areas of interest were Criminal Law, Constitutional Law and Indirect taxation. I always made it a point to attend all our lectures and atleast browse through relevant reading material before attending them. We had an amazing faculty who always had an open door policy to all students, and hence project consultations and interactions after class really helped in my understanding of various legal principles. In law, there is no alternative to extensive reading, hence if a student of law intends to sharpen his skills and knowledge, he/she should read law not for grades or CGPA but for its real life application and utility. It is very essential to make a connection between ones internships and the subject matter being taught. All sections or provisions of law are not equally practically important and as a law student although it is prudent to have a overview of all important enactments but it is very important to not ignore the basics.

     

    You judged several moot court competitions in the past. What do you see in a good mooter? Please provide guidance to the Prospective Mooters?

    Vagish: I remember interacting once with Justice Rajendra Babu in one of our farewell dinners at law school. I told him about my intention of joining litigation after passing out and sought his guidance. He told me that the biggest mistake a young lawyer or a mooter ever makes is that he/she focuses so much on the intricacies of law that facts are ignored. It has been my belief and experience that litigation as well as mooting involves attention to detail to every single fact in a brief. It is important to know what to say and when to say it. Presentation of facts sometimes makes the most crucial difference between a good and bad mooter. My advice to all mooters would be to never memorize what to say or how to say it, just be thorough with your facts and law; and go with your natural style and flow.

    Ashish: I completely agree with Vagish. Adding to what he has said, my suggestion to all mooters would be to read at least the introduction to Nani Palkhiwala: The Court Room Genius. It is important to be sound on Procedural laws and give importance to a particular argument on the basis of the stage at which a particular brief is being argued. Also, a mooter or a young lawyer should be his own best critic and counter every argument he/she plans to make. I have noticed that mooters and young advocates sometimes rely on overruled judgments due to blindly relying upon Books and Commentaries. It is vital that before a particular case law is cited before a Tribunal or a court, the entire jurisprudence on that particular issue should be clear in the mind of the Mooter/Advocate.

     

    There is a notion that one should work at least a few years under a Senior Advocate to understand the intricacies and practical aspects of Law. You started your practice independently right after graduating. How did you overcome your initial jitters in a courtroom full of experienced lawyers and judges?

    Ashish: Working with an experienced advocate certainly is helpful in training a young lawyer in legal and procedural skills, most importantly court craft and presentation. I have had the privilege of briefing Mr. K.V. Viswanathan, Mr. S. Ganesh,, Mr. Hiren Rawal, Mr Amrendra Sharan (Senior Advocates) in some our cases and it has taught us important insights in law and procedure. However I disagree with the statement that it is a prerequisite for every young counsel to compulsorily work with a Senior. A good senior is one who provides ample opportunities to his associates and juniors to prepare and present cases in courts. I was extremely fortunate to spend my only few months as a Junior Associate in the office of Major R.P.Singh Senior Advocate. He always encouraged me to draft Petitions, replies and entire briefs as well as appear before the Hon’ble Courts, at a young age. I am also thankful for the Guidance of Mr. N.M. Ranka Senior Advocate, under whom I did not have the privilege of working, but have always received his guidance, encouragement and support.

    Vagish: I find it extremely difficult to understand this fallacy that a young lawyer should spend 5 to 10 years with a senior or a firm before he/she starts to appear himself before courts of law. Personally I feel no matter how experienced one becomes, a crucial hearing or a high profile case will give jitters to even a senior counsel. As a law student who has been trained by the best teachers in this part of the world, we can make no such excuse and should be ready to take on the responsibility. Most of all young lawyers should learn to embrace the challenge of this profession and be confident in their knowledge and skills.

     

    Both of you being partners of Capstone Legal. What all challenges did you face while starting up given that you do not have any legal background? What were your challenges and how did you face them?

    Ashish: I remember Hon’ble Justice V.S. Dave had told me once that Litigation and Advocacy is a rather strange profession, for the simple reason that one has to behave like an aristocrat yet be as one with the masses. I understand now the true meaning of what his Lordship wanted to convey, since not every brief involves multinational corporations or persons with a capacity to pay. Early on it is extremely difficult to attract clientele and maintain a regular flow of cases. The task becomes herculean if one starts accepting or rejecting a brief for the fees that the client is capable of paying. We overcame this trust deficit by accepting briefs irrespective of the fees, and by sincerely and thoroughly representing whatever limited clients we initially had. This performance at the bar acts like an investment whose dividends a Counsel reaps in the future. Due to this practice, we currently work with over a dozen ET500 companies.

    Vagish: The biggest challenge that a young lawyer or lawfirm faces is attracting clientele. However, if a lawyer is patient and remains honest to his profession, this hurdle can be overcome by consistent performance at the bar. A young lawyer should not worry about the fees or quantum involved in a particular case. it might be extremely difficult to get your first brief but as I have learnt by observing Ashish Ji, performance at the Bar is noticed both by the Bar, the Bench and by other clients. We have also been extremely fortunate to receive guidance from seniors such as Mr. N.M. Ranka, Senior Advocate; Mr. R.P. Singh, Senior Advocate who always motivated us and trusted us even with complicated matters.

     

    Please tell our readers about Capstone Legal, which in a brief period of two years has earned the name in the Legal Industry. What is a day at work like? What is the most challenging or stressful part of being a founding partner of a law firm?

    Ashish: We started Capstone Legal as a litigation firm with the objective of providing individual and corporate clients a one stop solution for disputes pending before tribunals and courts of law. I am fortunate to work with Vagish as partner since we have always worked together and understand the firm’s objectives and requirements equally. A typical day at work always begins at 8.30 and spending all day at Court or Tribunals till 5 and coming back to sit in office to about 11.

    We both enjoy what we do and would not consider stress as being a part of this job. However, the most challenging part of being a founding partner of a law firm is a sense of responsibility and obligation towards a client. Many a times clients from extremely economically and socially backgrounds approach us with cases which we undertake pro bono. To my mind, obtaining any amount of relief in accordance with law to such a person, though stressful and challenging can be extremely gratifying.

    Vagish: The success of our firm is undoubtedly due to the outstanding cooperation between me and Ashish Ji. He has always guided me not to prolong any matter and deal with any issue sincerely and promptly. Clients appreciate our zeal to get positive outcomes. Ashish Ji has already talked about the day at work and typically both of us share the same time table. We make it a point to prepare all briefs together so that the interest of the client is not jeopardised in case one of us is travelling to attend matters in other forums or cities.

    I have come to realize that the most challenging part of being a founding partner of a law firm is that though we are always free, we are always busy. I always tell my interns that I do not have anyone who forces me to wake up every morning to sit in office and attend court. As an advocate and partner one has to motivate himself/herself everyday and treat the client’s interest as paramount above all else.

     

    Today law students intern at different places like Corporate Firms, Litigation Firms, NGO’s, Research Organizations, and Policy Think-Tanks etc. Where were your internships at law school? How is an internship helpful for a law student?

    Vagish: I think it is a welcome trend in law students to experience all areas and fields of practice of law. While in law school, both of us undertook internships at NGO’s, advocates at the Trial Court and Senior Advocates at the High Court. My internships solidified my intention to join litigation and skills learnt throughout those internships helped me in my initial years of practice. I think the importance of an internship for a law student is best reflected when he/she joins the profession. Key skills learnt during such internships enable a young lawyer to familiarize himself easily to the workplace and the profession.

     

    You have worked in over 400 matters till now across Supreme Court, High  Courts, CESTAT and Trial Courts at a young age. How’s your experience so far in arguing cases? What is the most interesting case of your litigation practice till now?

    Ashish Kumar Singh
    Ashish Kumar Singh

    Ashish: Arguing a case is an extremely challenging and exciting part of this profession. One needs to be well versed in all facets of the particular law and issue in a particular brief. in addition to a clarity in law, I make it a point to be absolutely sure about each and every relevant fact, so that it can be referred and brought to the attention of the Hon’ble court. Most of all the process becomes even more exciting since the issues involved are always extremely relevant to a person or a company, having real consequences to life, liberty or economic conditions of the client. Arguing a case, requires certain tact and court craft coupled with humility. I have had the good fortune of arguing a number of exciting cases, however one particular murder trial stands out. I was engaged by a local counsel at a certain district court to argue the final arguments in a sensational murder trial. It had been published in the local newspapers for years and involved alleged murder of a daughter by her own father. Without going into any details I can state that I was engaged to represent the accused father, and the arguments continued for over 5 hours before the Learned District and Sessions Judge.

    Vagish Kumar Singh
    Vagish Kumar Singh

    Vagish: I had always seen my brother arguing in court when I first joined the profession and he had outstanding confidence and presence at the Bar even back then. I borrowed some of his flair and enjoy arguing before various courts and tribunals. It has been my experience that the most insignificant sounding cases teach a young lawyer the most about law and its practice. Perhaps one of the most exciting cases I have argued was the Constitutionality of Section  234E of the Income Tax Act before the Hon’ble Division Bench of the Rajasthan High Court. I referred to some beautiful passages from Seervai’s Constitutional Law and Case Law distinguishing between Fees and Penalty. Arguing pure and simpliciter constitutional law is always a delight.

     

    Does Capstone Legal take interns? If yes, then what is the procedure for taking interns? What are your expectations from a prospective Intern in your firm?

    Ashish: Yes we always encourage internships for students in their third, fourth and fifth years. One may apply for internship at Capstone Legal through our website www.capstonelegal.in.

    We expect our interns to participate in the realtime functioning of the firm which includes client meetings, drafting and briefing of counsel. We are a young and energetic law firm and expect the same kind of zeal and energy from our associates and interns.

     

    What would be you message to the law students who want to pursue their career in the Litigation?

    Ashish: Litigation requires a leap of faith and most of all it requires patience. There may be times in the starting few months of your professional life, when you have no brief, or maybe one brief in one entire month. Even in those times it is important to be honest to one’s profession and attend Court diligently, learn from your colleagues and seniors and always remain vigilant of developments in law whether judge made or otherwise.

    Young law students must undertake litigation internships in good offices, to learn beforehand of the nuances of law and its practice in courts.

    Vagish: Litigation is undoubtedly a challenging profession. However for any young law student who wants to work on his own terms, litigation should always be a choice. It is important to believe and be confident in one’s own knowledge and skills. Most of all a good advocate is always humble and polite to his colleagues & to the bench and yet ferocious while at the bar.

     

     

    This interview was taken by: Shubham Gupta, III year, NLU Delhi

  • Deepa Kuruvilla, Founding Partner, Qwinlaw Legal, on experience with the JAG, the Indian Army, litigation at Bombay HC and work in Securities

    Deepa Kuruvilla, Founding Partner, Qwinlaw Legal, on experience with the JAG, the Indian Army, litigation at Bombay HC and work in Securities

    Deepa grew up in a traditional Kerala Christian family, studied at the Ernakulam Law College, under Mahatma Gandhi University, graduated in 1993 and started practicing at the Kerala Trial Court. She later appeared for JAG and worked with the Indian army for five years. She was also a part of the gender discrimination case filed by the Army nurses. After her experience with the Army, she pursued her independent practice at the Mumbai High Court and has been a panellist for SEBI before Securities Appellate Tribunal. Off late she has started her own law firm with the name Qwinlaw Legal.

    In this interview she talks about:

    • Pursuing her dreams and be where her calling is.
    • Taking up JAG and the application procedure.
    • Setting up her own independent practice and being a panellist with SEBI.
    • Establishing her own law firm – Qwinlaw Legal.

     

    Please tell us a bit about yourself.

    I am a consummate Legal professional with a high say do attitude who likes to meet new people and possibly try to translate the meeting into business opportunity. I am interested in willing to learn and sync present to the future. I see myself as a smart working Lawyer than a hard working Lawyer whose goal is to find opportunities in helping people who avoid litigation than fighting lengthy litigation for them.

    One can see in me a perfect blend of a daughter, sister, mother, a wife, a village girl, a legal professional, a tough army officer, a budding entrepreneur in legal industry. I enjoyed each role in its sanctity and have always done things away from my own comfort Zone!

     

    How has your pre-college life been like? What were your ambitions before joining college?

    I was born in a very traditional Kerala Christian family and lived and grown up in a small village called Mannoor 30 Km Away from Kochi Airport, in the plains of the pictorial perfect Kerala in a house closer to extensive paddy fields, Butterflies and flowers were my friends! Dancing around the coconut trees and painting were my hobbies! Putting legs in to the flowing streams near the paddy field and watching fishes playing with my leg and enjoying the sweetness of the westerly wind blowing from the paddy field were the most interesting thing to pass time.

    That was a world without Television sets, TV came to neighbouring house after PT USHA participated in Olympics. Most loving friends were paternal grant parents on weekdays and maternal grandparents on holidays.

    Dr. V Paulose (Mom’s Dad) was the only doctor in that Village. So, people adored the super powerful man. Dad’s dad was a hard-core farmer who had lots of bullocks and cows and hens and big courtyards in both the houses to play around, both grandmothers were beautiful and graceful, but ministers of the house, my dad, mom and I always adored, they had a good relations with all their siblings and cousins so we enjoyed the company of lots of relatives and cousins always. This was my childhood.

     

    Was pursuing law always your professional calling?

    Smart Advocates arguing in the court, were very attractive when seen in movies. Legal topics discussion always attracted me. My dad was Dy. Director in the Revenue Department (Survey & Land Record’s) of Kerala, legal topics were subject matter of discussions at home. I knew that my inclination is more towards Economics and Law than any other subjects.

    When I saw myself as a professional, I always found me as a smart lawyer, helping people to avoid litigation, advising Companies, than entering into lengthy litigation.

     

    How was your law school experience at Mahatma Gandhi University?

    Law College, Ernakulam, under Mahatma Gandhi University, where I studied was a very famous college due to the senior lots who became Central and State level Ministers and High Court Judges. It had ahuge Library, where I spent most of my time there reading Case laws and interpretations of 1800’s.

     

    Please tell us about your experience with regard to your first few sessions in Kerala High Court. Has it become more difficult for a fresher to achieve success?

    I worked under Adv. PM Thomas, and was entrusted mostly trial court matters in smaller courts. I used to read and prepare matters before the case presentations or trial, and if I had doubts, I used to clarify the same with my seniors in the office. I enjoyed my work,

    If a fresher observes the successful seniors attending court and the methodology they adopt very closely and learn their presentation skills, and if he or she spends time studying the court matter they handle, I think it is not difficult for him/her to achieve success. The key element is home work and the ability to control the shivers passes through the spine seeing senior Advocates in the court room standing against you. Your knowledge in the subject matter and equanimity helps you to become a David in front of Goliaths, that’s my experience.

     

    deepa-kuruvilla-2

    What motivated you to apply for JAG?

    Udan, TV serial which came in Door Darshan in Junior College days attracted me very much, seeing a village girl becoming Police officer and entering man’s world! I placed myself in that character and wanted to be in that spectrum in real,

    When I was in 4th year law, the first entry into Indian Army by women happened,a pet project envisioned by Yesteryears Prime Minister Late Indira Gandhi, I was so thrilled hearing about that, Employment Exchange Newspapers were the only source those days to get to know about such opportunities, I kept a watch and applied, with full desire & prayers but no iota of hope, as being competing with the smarter girls from whole of India, with my minimal village back ground. But God’s Grace I got selected.

     

    What is the application procedure for JAG?

    Whenever there is opening, Indian Army publishes the requirement on their website, and the methods of entry is described, one has to follow the application procedures,

    The process which was in my case was as follows:

    • The first level of selection was at SSB- (Services Selection Board)in May 1995, a written test for aptitude on the first day screening, if passed stay for another 4 days of test. (Who failed will leave )
    • 4 days continuous testing –different psychological and physical test at various levels
    • one who passes the test, will stay for the medical test, rest will leave,
    • Once pass medical test , will be called for training
    • Training at Officers training Academy, Madras for Combat training , which lasted for 6 months , Passed out from OTA Madras ( March 1996)
    • Appointment at JAG’s Branch , Head Quarters ,Northern Command as first lady officer in that office and undergone court martial training under supervision of senior officers for six months
    • Young Officers specialisation course for Military Law at Institute of Military law near Nagpur, for 4 months ,
    • Re-joined JAG”S NCHQ again, This qualified to be a JAG officer to exercise duties of an Independent JAG Officer

     

    What role does the JAG officer play in the Indian Army? Does the work ever get monotonous?

    JAG officer does Court Martial of wrong doers who are subject to Military Laws. Each case was unique and the Military law is stricter than the civil law, due to the nature of the exigencies of the service; it can never be monotonous.

    Moreover, the tenure in the Army is very challenging and enjoyed the attention I got. There was a charisma of being one among the first lot of lady officers of Indian Army, which made the heads turn to see the lady officer in Uniform! This attracted media attentions many times, manyof whom I met were seeing a lady officer for the first time! The attentions led to a style and attitude of myown, helped me to maintain perfect equanimity and a humble personality, though the toughness and charm of Army Officer was well ingrained.

     

    deepa-kuruvilla-4

    What were the responsibilities you were entrusted withwhile working as a Deputy Assistant Judge Advocate General –DAJAG (Rank- Captain), officer In Charge Army Legal Cell in Mumbai?

    Army Area Legal Cells of Indian Army defend legal cases filed against Indian Army in that particular Army Area. I took charge of Legal Cell, Mumbai, when it is set up in 1997 as first officer, and the job was to set it up to a full-fledged legal office and defending the ongoing cases against Indian army M&G Area.I was working closely with Ministry of Law,, Assistant Solicitor General of India and Central Govt. Panel Counsels in defending such cases , this included the appearance on behalf of Indian Army before Commission under Justice B.N. Sri Krishna investigating into Mumbai Riots 1993 which attracted lot of media attention.

     

    Why did you decide to litigate at the Mumbai High Court after working in the Indian Army for about five years? What were the other opportunities you were considering?

    I took release from the Indian Army after 5 years of mandatory services with Indian Army and started practising in various Courts in Mumbai along with my husband who was a practising lawyer and already had a set- up his office in Mumbai, I was focused, didn’t consider any other opportunity.

    Among many cases I appeared in the Mumbai High Court in the Army nurses uniform case filed for the rights of Army nurses made to wear the same uniform as male army officers, a case against gender discrimination. This attracted lot of media attention.

    I later got empanelled as SEBI panel Lawyer and appeared cases on behalf of SEBI in Securities Appellate Tribunal (2003-2005).

     

    What was the role of mentors in your case? How important do you think a mentor is in the field of litigation?

    Mentor is required for life, not just about litigation alone! I was lucky that God sendtough task masters as mentors in my life.

    First and the most long standing mentor in my life is my Dad! And my Mom his perfect Assistant who supported me all throughout my crazy adventures and wishes and gave me the self-confidence. I am still amazed how they trusted me in all my moves when everything I wanted was unconventional in the small village I belonged to. A girl becoming a practising lawyer- not so great; joined Army – the wildest crazy thing, one can think about a girl who is at the age right for an arranged marriage in my place.

    One example of my dad’s support: when I couldn’t take the rigorous Army Combat Training in OTA, I called my dad asking him to take me out from the OTA by paying penalty to the government for leaving the training incomplete (those days it was per day Rs. 4000/- accrued to number of days spend in the academy), some girls were already left by this method so I had hope, I lured him saying it will be high cost later on, easy to take me out now as it is less cost, he said I will take you out from the academy, if you are the last person to go out from the academy by paying lakhs, you don’t worry about thousands! He said , It was your well thought decision and you should know how to stand by your decision, you will only have choice to be successful, I will not accept failures in my house! He reminded me this while fixing stars on my shoulders on the day of passing out parade.

    My Career begin with my senior Advocate Mr. PM Thomas, as my mentor: – he gave me opportunity to argue important cases in the first year of practise itself even when the opposing counsels were very senior in the legal profession; when the pressure used to build up, and if I complain, he used to smile and ask, “so what”! ; it kept me going and many time successful! This gave a lot of Confidence!

    My Mentor to start practise in Mumbai Courts was my husband , under whom I practised law , a hard task master ,and a very intelligent lawyer, his clients vouch for it , he never used to spare me in the office , eventually I used to take revenge at home , still I was never spared !. He taught me practical wisdom and sensitivities regarding the business of practising law in a big city

    These 3 mentors of life made me my own mentor for the rest of the life.

     

    What are the requisite soft skills which are essential for a young lawyer to build a successful career?

    The Quest for Learning!, Humility, the ability to understand the ‘advice’ and ‘delivery’ the client require from you,A perfect Equanimity! Even while dealing with pressure while tough arguments, Success will be a bi-product even in adverse situation!

     

    deepa-kuruvilla-5

    How did you develop interest in these areas of law? Please tell us about your core areas of practice.

    (During Deepa’s five years of independent practice, she has handled matters on Domestic and International Securities Law, Military law and also dealt with matters on Banking and Finance Law and Arbitration.)

    This is an evolution happened based on the matters handled during independent practise with my husband; Interest developed because of the intention to deliver the best result; Analysed the subject matter and spend time in learning the specific subjects and put in the best of the effort , so the end results came successful. My interest in investing in Stock Market and the help of brother practising in Securities law was a great boost.

    The core Area what I am interested among other faculty of Law right now is Capital Market Laws.

     

    What should a law graduate do in his first year of graduation to establish a career in Securities and Capital Markets Law?

    This area is highly corporatized by big law firms, it is better to join one of such law firms and develop skills and learn Capital Market Laws ; However one need to understand the dynamics of the functions of the Capital Markets and its intermediaries to understand the complexities of Capital Market laws . These laws are very dynamic in amendments and the regulators are amending the laws to support the functionality of the capital Market in its practical applications and to keep it in a perfect balance with the Macro economic objectives, so it’s important to understand the users of this law than Law on a standalone basis.

     

    What is the reason behind pursuing certificate courses? Was it a professional requirement to enhance more in your career?

    (Deepa has taken courses on Stock Market, Mergers & Acquisitions, Technical Analysis Bombay Stock Exchange Training Institute and also pursued Certification in Investment Compliance from Securities & Investment Institutes, London, United Kingdom)

    I was a visiting Faculty to ITM- Institute of Financial Markets, Navi Mumbai to teach MBA students Securities law in the year 2007. In that process I not only taught students Securities law, but also simplified Securities law to myself, teaching forced me to read those subjects I generally do not dealt with for the purpose of Career. As I said earlier, thesecourses I attended were some of my learning efforts of the subjects I dealt with and it is continuing. Latest is that I am a student of Diploma in Entrepreneurship Administration and Business Laws by NUJS & iPleaders.

     

    What kind of responsibilities were you entrusted with at the organizations you worked? How different was the work environment of these two companies? How would you describe your experience in brief?

    (Deepa has worked with two organizations – B& K Securities India Pvt. Ltd. as a Legal Manager and Monterosa TSS as their Vice President of Legal & Compliance in Mumbai before moving to Qwinlaw Legal & Compliances.)

    Working with B& K Securities was the first experience for working in a Corporate office, the prime responsibility was to set up their UK Office with regulatory approvals from FSA, London Successfully set it up and made it up and running and supported the compliance functions; The other functions was to oversee the compliances of their international offices in Singapore and US.

    The role in MTSS was for Legal Due Diligence support for their clients investing into Indian Market via Venture Capital, Private Equity and FDI.

    Both experiences were enriching and helped me in continuous learning as there is lot of complex regulatory compliances to follow and lot of business negotiations to do; which also require hands on legal support.

     

    What does your current work profile at Qwinlaw consists of? How is a typical workday like?

    Qwinlaw is my own Law Firm. This firm specialised in Legal & Compliances function to Support the clients who invest into Indian Companies and help them to comply with India laws and ongoing regulatory filings; Support clients to assess and manage the legal risk andgive solutions to structure the business to litigation free as much as possible; there is no typical work day for own business, Delivery at the earliest is the Goal.

     

    How has your journey been from a fresher to being an expert concentrating on FDIs in to India and Securities and Capital Market laws?

    There was no straight line path, I have managed diversified levels in the legalCareer.However I always had an ability to find where the business is, which suited me and also trendy in the Market;I have always put an effort to learn the core subjects which translated into a level of knowledge which can make me confident for what I deal with;

     

    When you hire lawyers, what kind of skills and profile do you look for? Are the attributes different for working lawyers and fresh graduates?

    If I feel the candidate demonstrate an ability to perform and have an attitude to improve constantly, who can complement and support me in my work, he or she will be the right candidate.

     

    Do you offer internships at Qwinlaw Legal?

    So far not! It’s a start-up, long way to go.

     

    What would be your advice to young law students? Whether they should join a firm or practice at bar? How should they approach the legal career?

    Law student should identify themselves, where do they fit in to excel personally, that should be the choice! Both Firm and Bar have their own charm!

    Career in Law is a process of continuous learning, one should be ready for hard work and learn the practical applications than focusing only on the theoretical knowledge. This will help to build up the client trust in you and you will be able to advice/ deliver results correctly.

     

  • Sajan Poovayya, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court and Karnataka HC, on Poovayya&Co., managing a firm, higher studies, and litigation

    Sajan Poovayya, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court and Karnataka HC, on Poovayya&Co., managing a firm, higher studies, and litigation

    Sajan Poovayya is a graduate of the 1996 batch of NLSIU, Bangalore. Thereafter, he went on to finish his LL.M. from LSE by 2000. Sajan took the plunge and started up with a law firm Poovayya & Co. right after graduation from NLSIU. After 18 years of looking after the growth and developing the firm Sajan quit his role of Managing Partner in 2012 after being appointed as a Senior Advocate. A former Additional Advocate General for Karnataka he has also served as the Chairman of Karnataka State Council, and the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI).

    In this interview, he talks to us about:

    • Experience as a student at NLSIU
    • Foreign masters, internships and meetings
    • Setting up a firm after college and taking charge of its expansion and development
    • Experience as the Additional Advocate General for Karnataka and Senior Advocate in the Supreme Court
    • Advice to those wanting to set up their own litigation practice

     

    What influenced you to choose law as your profession?

    Although my father is a lawyer and his court room advocacy inspired me early in life, I aspired to become a neurosurgeon, as medicine fascinated and continues to fascinate me. During my 12th standard (second year Pre-University Course as it was then known in Karnataka), I had devoted considerable time for preparation to sit the medical entrance exam. It was in the latter half of my 12th standard that I was brain washed by my father, not so much to consider law as a profession, but to consider the National Law School at Bangalore as an institution to study at.

    My father was inspired by the wonderful work done by Dr. N.R. Madhava Menon, the founder director of National Law School and he used every bit of that to convince me to sit the National Law School of India University (NLSIU) entrance exam. My elder brother was already a student at NLSIU, having entered the institution inthe school’s first batch of students. At that time, NLSIU had no campus or infrastructure facilities whatsoever and operated literally out of a few sheds in the City’s Central College campus. Despite these odds, Dr.Menon had pulled a rabbit out of the hat by building an institution which, by the end of the 1980s, had gained considerable popularity.

    During my occasional visits to the Law School to meet my brother, I had seen Dr. Menon in action. His approach was to deal with every situation hands on and decisively. I was tremendously influenced simply by watching Dr. Menon in action. Clearly, my father’s brain washing skills and Dr. Menon’s personal aura influenced me to choose NLSIU over any medical school. I sat the exam and secured admission. Once in, confusion in my mind remained for some time, but it took me little less than sixty days during the first trimester to realize that law is the profession for me. Love for the law, although not instant, was strongand I must say has remained stable.

     

    Please tell us a bit about your father’s practice and your initial exposure to law.

    My father has had and continues to have an extremely positive influence on me. He continues to be a very active trial lawyer at Coorg despite completing 55 years at the Bar. He is a very soft spoken person but is voracious and vigorous in court. I would, as a high school student in Coorg, accompany my father to the District Court during school vacations. Many a time, I accompanied him in what he did; as his driver, clerk, stenographer, and at times, simply as his chaperon. His court room advocacy certainly inspired me and many others.

    Although a high school student, I would be tasked with transcribing plaints, completing paraphernalia in dockets to make them ready for filing, etc., which exposed me to the practice of law in the mofussil courts. Law was not abstract to me anymore. I realized that I liked what I saw. My early interest in the law was certainly instilled and inspired by my father’s practice, though I continued to aspire to be a doctor until I saw Dr. Menon in action, building NLSIU.

     

    How was life as a law student at NLSIU? What was the University’s role in shaping you into the individual you are today?

    For me, life as a student at NLSIU was fantastic in every sense of the term. I owe every bit of what I am today to the Law School. When I entered NLSIU it may not have had infrastructure but it certainly had attitude. It had built a culture of academic excellence, healthy but not intense competition, and above all, a holistic approach to the study of law. It is the inter-disciplinary approach to legal education that enamoured me the most. NLSIU did not just induct me into legal studies but also shaped my character and changed my personality completely. I had the benefit of having a wonderful group of teachers at NLSIU and each one greatly influenced and motivated me. I continue to thank them at the end of each day for what they have done to me.

    My peers at NLSIU influenced me even more. They completely changed my personality from being an introvert to becoming not only an extrovert but a fighter too. I found everything that I needed at NLSIU; academic excellence, personality development, strong sense of right and wrong, and above all, true love. I have spent the last 24 years with Sanjanthi, my best friend and wife, who I would possibly have never met but for NLSIU.

     

    Many believe graduates from an NLU have it easier in kick-starting a legal career. How truthful is this belief? Does it make any difference to one’s litigation practice?

    It is a myth that a graduate from a National Law University will find it easier to kick start a legal career. Another astounding myth is that graduates from NLUs are always better than graduates from other law colleges. Extraordinary jewels of the legal profession have emanated and continue to emanate from local law colleges. At the same time, not all graduates from NLUs make a mark in the profession.

    I firmly believe that while institutions can equip you for your journey and provide you with good shoes, what you achieve is not dependent upon the shoes you wear but the steps you take. Being a graduate from an NLU certainly helps inasmuch as NLUs do instil an analytical approach to the study of law and a greater degree of capacity to undertake legal research. To that extent, I believe, it will make some difference in one’s litigation practice, but only that far and no further. If one has to excel as a litigator, one should continue to be determined, to provide his or her best to each brief that comes his or her way. Each brief is akin to a step for you to achieve a higher threshold in the legal profession. It is for you to take those steps, firmly and evenly, lest you trip.

     

    How important do you feel are moot court competitionsfor a law student who wishes to pursue litigation?

    Whilst academic and research oriented activities are very helpful in instilling in a student the capacity to work hard and dig deep to find the essence of every legal matter,moot court competitions sharpen the analytical ability and skill sets of a student. Students should participate in moot court competitionsasmuch as possible. As a student, I have enjoyed every moot court competition that I have participated in and I have emerged a better law analyser therefrom.

    Whilst moot courts necessarily do not expose you to the practicality of real life court room situations, they do provide you with some flavour as to how litigations are contested or defended. To be a successful lawyer, consistency and hard work are necessary ingredients. Hard work does not commence post enrolment at the Bar, but from the very moment you seek admission in a law school.

     

    What kind of internships did you undertake as a law student? Which was the most enriching internship experience for you?

    I was clearly inclined towards a career as a litigator. I therefore chose to do every internship of mine with litigators. From my second year at NLSIU, I regularly attended the chambers of my senior and guru in the profession, Mr. S. Vijay Shankar, Senior Advocate and Former Advocate General for Karnataka. I clerked in his chambers on a daily basis, post school hours, through my years at NLSIU. It enormously exposed me to the practice of law in the High Court of Karnataka. The four years of clerking for Mr. Vijay Shankar had sufficiently equipped me to deal with many nuances of drafting, filing and registry processes in the High Court. Mr. Vijay Shankar is one of the most methodical and disciplined lawyers I have known. His methodical approach indeed equipped me with sufficient skill sets. It was clearly one of the most enriching experiences for me.

    That apart, I interned with litigators in the Supreme Court during my summers through law school. One of the most enriching internships in Delhi was with Mr. V.R. Reddy, Senior Advocate and at that time the Additional Solicitor General of India. His capacity to portray some of the most complex legal propositions in the most simplest of terms amazed and inspired me.

     

    What challenges did you have to overcome in setting up a firm soon after graduating from law school?

    (Soon after graduating from NLSIU, Sajan established the firm Poovayya & Co. in Bangalore)

    I graduated as a gold medallist from NLSIU and late Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam handed over the degree tome in the convocation. I was on cloud nine. I had to go through a year’s compulsory post qualification internship before enrolling at the Bar as per the prevailing rules(which fortunately have been changed today). No sooner did I complete my post qualification internship, Poovayya & Co. was established with enormous support from my senior Mr. Vijay Shankar and my father Mr. M. K. Poovayya. It was unusual for lawyers to set up independent chambers or law firms immediately after enrolment at the Bar. When I expressed my desire to do so, my Senior and my father did not once discourage me, they in fact supported me in this venture. I plunged into the profession for I knew in the back of my mind that my father would continue to be a safety net, not so much in terms of finances but in terms of guidance.

    The initial years for Poovayya & Co. were extremely hard but never depressing. It was hard to gain the confidence of clients and the Bench. Hard work continues even today and enormous travel across courts in the country makes it harder. But therecontinue to be happy days and never have I gone home sad at the end of the day.

    I am glad Poovayya & Co. began its journey from Bengaluru and not any other city. Bengaluru, as a city in the mid-1990s, was going through a metamorphosis with corporatization being the buzz word that helped the firm garner quite a lot of work quickly.

    The Karnataka High Court is possibly the best High Court in the nation for a young lawyer to commence a career in litigation. Through my initial years, judges were extremely encouraging. It is for a young lawyer to make the best of such encouragement and aim forhigher thresholds of excellence in the profession. It is a myth that it is hellish for a litigator during the initial years.Hard work is a requirement, no doubt, with lesser amounts of monies compared to corporate non contentious lawyers, but the sense of achievement is extremely gratifying.

     

    Do you still get reminded of your first case and first hearing?

    I do recall my first argument in Court. I enrolled at the State Bar Council at 11.30 am and was out for lunch with Mr. Basavaraj, my immediate senior at the chambers of Mr. Vijay Shankar. Duringlunch, he encouraged me to argue a matter in the Chief Justice’s Court post lunch at 2.30 pm. I knew the matter well on account of my continuous clerkship at the chambers of my Senior.

    Mr. Basavaraj sat beside me in Court as a fulcrum of encouragement. The matter involved a question of incorporation by reference in a legislation. I argued for about forty five minutes, my first ever as a lawyer. I lost the case but received compliments fromthe Bench headed by Mr. R.P. Sethi. A few members of the Bar enquired with Mr. Basavaraj, if I was a Counsel from another High Court, specifically briefed to argue the matter. Failure in the first case was not only sugar coated for me but also became a stepping stone to get here and go on further.

     

    Is it important to have prior connections within the legal field to successfully manage this?

    Prior connections in the legal field are unnecessary and many a time, can be detrimental as well. Prior exposure to the legal field is very necessary and this can be achieved with the help ofinternships and/or clerkships. Prior exposure certainly better equips you to deal with the vagaries of the profession whilst prior connections may not necessarily do so.

     

    What made you choose London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE) for your masters in Information Technology Law? How has your Masters from the prestigious LSE affected your career in the long run?

    I would always recommend a stint at reputed universities abroad, not so much for the quantum of law that you will learn but for the enormous exposure such stint affords you. I have been a fan of LSE since the time I read the works of Bernard Shaw and also for the fact that Dr.Ambedkar, at one point of time, was associated with the institution. I obtained a Master’s degree and thoroughly enjoyed my time at LSE. The fact that I received a fat scholarship which took care of not just academic fees but also expenses for a comfortable living in London was an added incentive. I pursued the solicitor’s programme in parallel and was admitted to Law Society of LES as a solicitor of the Supreme Court of England and Wales.

     

    I realized that the thresholds of academic excellence at NLSIU were as high, if not higher than LSE. Therefore, more than the academic exposure, what I gained most during my stint at London was exposure to how barristers work in the city. I was associated with a few barristers and I would regularly attend hearings (as a visitor) at the Royal Courts of London. Those experiences further reinforced my decision to remain and continue as a litigator.

     

    After having completed your masters in a foreign university, what made you come back to India, instead of setting up a career in the UK?

    India offers one of the most vibrant platforms in the world for a litigator. The quantum and diversity of litigation in India far exceeds anything that UK can offer. I had no doubts ever in my mind that I wanted to litigate and that too in my home country. While I did receive job offers from a few London law firms, they made no sense to me in light of what I always wanted to be, i.e., a litigator. Coming back to India to litigate was therefore a natural choice for me and I am very glad I did.

     

    How was your experience working as the State Government’s lawyer?Would you consider taking up such work in the future?

    (Sajan was the Additional Advocate General for Karnataka from November 2012 to May 2013)

    I officiated as an Additional Advocate General for Karnataka for about a year and was the sole Additional Advocate General for the State of Karnataka for good part of the tenure. I thoroughly enjoyed my tenure. What made it even more special for me was that my chamber senior Mr. Vijay Shankar was the Advocate General, officiating for the second term. Sixteen years prior thereto, in 1996, he had commenced his first term as the Advocate General for Karnataka during which time I was his chamber junior and had closely worked under him in many matters of importance. The opportunity to work with him again and that too as his Additional Advocate General was indeed a wonderful experience.

    I firmly believe that all litigators should, at some point of time in their careers, work for the State or the Union. The dimensions of work that you experience as a senior law officer for the State or Union far transcends the exposure that private practice can offer. Representing the State or Union as a senior law officer in the midst of multiple bureaucratic constraints makes you not just a better lawyer but a more mature human being. For a successful private practitioner, occupying such position also affords the opportunity to contribute to the profession and give a little back to the society. An efficient lawyer as a law officer can make an enormous difference to the State and consequently to the society. I will certainly consider taking up such positions as and when, and if at all, they are offered to me.

     

    What would be your advice to recent law graduates when they are faced with the choice between joining law chambers of a Senior Advocate, or working with an up-and-coming new lawyer?

    It does not matter whether you join the chambers of aSenior Advocate or work with an up-and-coming new lawyer. As a young lawyer, fresh off mint, one should join a chamber which has a wide variety of work. It is extremely important for a litigator to experience a wide area of contentious practice, rather than restrict oneself to a particular specialized vertical. The greater the exposure to a variety of legal work, better will you emerge as a lateral thinker. The key aspects that a lawyer should look for in a chamber are therefore: (i) variety of work; and (ii) opportunity to handle litigations completely, however minor they may be.

     

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    Should one start out at the Trial Courts before proceeding to the High Court if one has no connections in the legal arena? Or would you recommend joining a litigation firm instead?

    Practice as a trial lawyer is crucial and sets the foundations for a successful practice. One cannot aspire to become a successful appellate counsel sans any trial experience, although there may be exceptions. I find many lawyers starting out directly at High Courts which do not have original jurisdiction or even in the Supreme Court. Whilst that may work for a few, it is not the most desirable path to tread. It is not necessary for a few years to be exclusively devoted to trial work. It has been my experience that a good blend of trial and appellate practice simultaneously helps in the overall development of a litigator.

    For youngsters who are determined to climb the vertical of litigation practice, I would highly recommend joining a reputed litigation firm which has considerable trial and appellate work.

     

    How would you encourage students to keep their determination to enter litigation alive instead of joining corporate firms, owing to the lack of financial stability in the former?

    Gone are the days when it was tough surviving the first few years in the litigation arena. Young litigators no more receive merely subsistence allowances. Almost all law chambers offer a fairly adequate remuneration for a young junior counsel. When I entered the profession, a thousand rupees per month for a junior was considered a princely sum, as most chambers typically offered less than half of that.

    Juxtapose to the present day, where junior litigators are paid sufficiently to maintain a decent lifestyle if not a luxurious one. Certainly, litigation initially offers far less, in terms of financial rewards, as compared to corporate law firms. However, the sense of achievement and satisfaction is unparalleled. What you need therefore is the determination to survive as a litigator. The growth curve in litigation is so steep that in a few years, a diligent litigator will not just surpass his peers in corporate law firms but also achieve far greater thresholds of professional success (and financial success too).

     

    How do you prepare for a good case? What would be your tips and advice to young lawyers?

    There are no good or bad cases. There are only good or bad lawyers. When one begins preparations for a brief, one should never pre-judge the matter. The case is what it is and it is for you to extract the best out of it and weave sound legal arguments around it. My candid advice for young lawyers is to prepare every brief as if there is no tomorrow. ‘Complete Preparation’ is the mantra. It is certainly not sufficient for you to prepare your arguments on what you believe are the merits of your case. The mantra for success is in being prepared with as many arguments against your proposition and in finding counters to each of those, such that you will ultimately emerge victorious. Young lawyers should also bear in mind that many a time, litigations are lost on procedural issues despite substantial merits in the matter. Never ignore procedure. I have found thirty minutes’ preparation for every minute of submission in Court to be a fairly helpful yardstick. In complex matters, however, the yardstick can extend to an hour’s preparation for every minute’s submission.

     

    Do you have plans for the future expansion of Poovayya & Co.? Are business development skills necessary when it comes to running a firm nation-wide?

    Pursuant to my designation as Senior Advocate, I quit the law firm Poovayya & Co. Whilst there exists debate around the question as to whether a Senior Advocate can or should continue as partner in a law firm, I have always maintained that once designated, Senior Advocates should not hold direct interests in or control law firms. It is extremely difficult for a Senior Advocate to disconnect himself from clients and client aspirations, if he continues to hold equity or proprietary interests in a law firm.

    When I quit Poovayya & Co. and demitted offices as the firm’s managing partner, I was reasonably certain that the firm has matured to a level that it would continue to grow without me. The firm’s existing partners have done a splendid job in continuing its growth in each of its four offices. Poovayya & Co. as a firm has continued to prosper with significant year-on-year growth, independent of me. Whether to expand the firm further with newer offices in other cities is for the firm’s existing partners to decide.

    On the question of business development skills, I have a slightly non-traditional view. Having run a law firm for almost 18 years, I believe that it is your work which should be your brand ambassador and the best marketing partner you can ever have. Almost the entirework being undertaken by Poovayya & Co. has come from the previous and existing clients’ references. I therefore believe that capacity to market is irrelevant for building a successful law practice.

     

    What do you look for when you hire lawyers under you? Can academic experience replace work experience and the ability to deliver?

    What I would see in a young lawyer during the recruitment process is the following: (i) capacity and inclination to work hard; and (ii) rational & analytical thought process.

    Academic excellence, at times, demonstrates the candidate’s capacity to work hard. It is impossible to compare or choose between academic excellence and work experience. One does not substitute the other. What you need is a combination of both.

     

    Do you find it easy to maintain a work-life balance? How do you unwind after a hard day’s work?

    The concept of work-life balance has been hyped in India and sometimes discussions around it are unnecessary. The debate on ‘work-life balance’ pre-supposes that you do not enjoy your work and therefore do not see ‘life’ in it. For a lawyer who enjoys his work, a lot of his life is woven around his work. If you enjoy what you do as a lawyer, you may be tired at the end of the day but are never stressed. My work keeps me packed for a good part of the day and the night. Travels between the Supreme Court and various High Courts makes it a little worse in terms of time management. That said, I do find sufficient time to spend with my family and I cherish every moment of what I get with them. The best form of relaxation is to spend time with your family and loved ones.

    I also collect and restore old automobiles and that passion helps me unwind. Strumming Carnatic classical tunes on the mandolin is another way for me to unwind.  Music is a great way to de-stress. Lawyers should plan their work in such a manner that they have sufficient time to do things other than law and spend time with their loved ones.

     

    What is the one advice you would like to give our readers?

    Never underestimate the power of ‘here’ and ‘now’. When at work, give all of what you have to it, in terms of sincerity, labour, time and attention. Always have an eye for detail. When you are at work, switch on ‘work’ and switch off the ‘world’.  When you are not working switch off ‘law’ and switch on the ‘world’. Doing things other than law will invariably make you a better lawyer!

    To be a superlative litigator, you should be a maverick with a strong moral fibre.

  • Divyam Agarwal, Senior Associate, J. Sagar Associates, on higher studies from LSE, cracking the AOR exam and experience in Litigation

    Divyam Agarwal, Senior Associate, J. Sagar Associates, on higher studies from LSE, cracking the AOR exam and experience in Litigation

    Divyam Agarwal graduated from Amity Law School in 2007 and went on to do a Master’s from The London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE) in 2008. Today, he is a Senior Associate at J. Sagar Associates and has extensive experience in Commercial & Civil Litigation matters as well as commercial arbitrations.

    A qualified Advocate-on-Record of the Supreme Court of India, in this interview Divyam shares with us:

    • The importance of learning the art of advocacy in law school through moot courts
    • His take on how to apply for Master’s at the prestigious LSE
    • Experience of working at a Tier-I law firm
    • The method of preparing for the difficult AOR Exam

     

    Please share with us how you chose to study law. Do you have lawyers in your family?

    While growing up, I had no specific inclination towards taking up law as a profession. With the passage of time and after closely observing my maternal grandfather who was a reputed taxation lawyer in UP as well as my father who is a chartered accountant, I realized that a person having knowledge of law thinks rationally and objectively in not only professional situations but also in day to day affairs of life. Though I was initially hesitant, after joining my law course, I developed a keen interest in law subjects, particularly those pertaining to dispute resolution. One thing led to another and I found my calling.

     

    How was your experience at Amity Law School?

    Studying at Amity Law School was a great experience. Apart from the regular course structure, we were given ample opportunities to participate in several moot court competitions and other such events. Another advantage of studying at Amity Law School was the fact that the college was based in Delhi and I got several opportunities to intern with practicing lawyers and well-known law firms.

     

    Could you tell us about the internships you undertook during this period? How do you believe one should structure their internships during law school to provide the maximum exposure?

    My internships were spread out evenly in the corporate sector as well as litigation. Even though my interest all along had been to pursue dispute resolution, in order to make a reasoned and well informed decision, I decided to intern in a corporate setup, so as to assess work involved therein and my inclination towards the same.

    It is advisable to evenly spread internships and gain exposure in maximum possible areas of law. This helps in identifying the right practice area. Another way for maximizing the benefits of internships is to link the internships with the nature of subjects which one is being taught concurrently in college.

     

    You were an avid mooter in law school. Please share with us your achievements and experiences in mooting.

    All law students must hone their oratory skills by regularly participating in moot court competitions. I represented my law school in many competitions and was fortunate to win several accolades. I was part of the team that won the national rounds of Stetson International Environment Law Moot and we represented India at the World Rounds held at Florida, USA. At the World Rounds, our team made it to the quarter finals and I was declared the third best oralist. My love for mooting continued even during my stint at LSE. I was part of the team that represented LSE at Willem C. Vis Moot held at Vienna. Mooting not only aided me in overcoming any possible unease in presenting my thoughts in an effective manner but also improved my inter-personal skills and confidence.

     

    What was your motivation to go abroad for higher studies? How should one go about applying for premier foreign universities like LSE?

    (Divyam pursued a Master’s from the prestigious LSE)
    Although it is a common perception that lawyers intending to practice in the dispute resolution sphere do not necessarily require higher qualification than LLB degrees and higher qualification is often considered to be a means for personal gratification, I have always been of the view that to truly understand the ethos and ever evolving dynamics of any subject, law or any other, it is imperative that one should refine their knowledge by pursuing higher education in their chosen field.

    LSE being one of the premier institutes was a logical choice. I was really impressed with the quality of the faculty for my area of interest. Also, from my research I noted that at LSE the emphasis during classes was on discussions and deliberations regarding practical application of theoretical concepts. This difference in approach was one of the key factors which made me opt for LSE. On a lighter note, the fact that I had been awarded the K.R. Narayanan Scholarship for my Master’s course at LSE made the decision a no brainer!

    Applications at LSE are considered strictly on academic merit. It is imperative to have a good aggregate coupled with mooting and internship experience. Aspirants should concentrate on preparing a focused Statement of Purpose and also obtain Letters of Recommendation from legal luminaries and academicians whom they have been associated with.

     

    How did you zero in on Arbitration as your specialization for your Master’s?

    Arbitration as an alternate dispute resolution mechanism has always fascinated me. In my law school days, courts were shaping the arbitration law at an alarming pace. Substantial advances had been made in foreign jurisdictions especially in the United Kingdom and the principles of alternate dispute resolution and arbitration were well established there. As such, when it came to my Master’s degree, understanding the nuances of international commercial arbitration was a natural choice.

     

    How was the experience at LSE? How do you think it has helped you?

    As clichéd it may sound, at LSE I had the best experience of my life. The whole spirit of LSE –taught by brilliant minds, sharing space with exceptional students from around the world and the overall vibe of the city– was really an enriching experience.

    I found my time at LSE to be both inspirational and essential formy future career. It has given me a broad understanding of the world from a legal perspective which I have found relevant to everything from work in the office to chats in the pub.

     

    Students wishing to pursue Master’s should prefer a chance abroad or in India?

    I believe every law student, given the opportunity, must go for Master’s abroad. The transnational exposure and interaction with lawyers/law students from other jurisdictions helps one in gaining invaluable experiences. It is definitely worth pursuing Master’s from abroad. It changes you in the way you think about everything around you.

     

    How did you proceed after your Master’s?

    In my final year of law school I had interned at J. Sagar Associates. During my internship, I was fortunate to receive a placement offer from the Dispute Resolution team. After the completion of my Master’s, I approached the firm and was given an opportunity to work with them. That’s how my journey with JSA began.

     

    How has the experience of working for the Dispute Resolution Team of a Tier I law firm been?

    (Divyam is currently a Senior Associate at J. Sagar Associates)

    Working at JSA has been an enriching experience. I have recently completed 7 years with the firm, yet each day I continue to learn something new. Each day possesses a different challenge and I look forward to the same. Initially, it was challenging to match the high standards of the organization. However, over the years I have been able to fit myself in and now I strive towards achieving JSA’s vision and mission.

     

    In a profession known to take its toll on one’s personal life, how do you manage to find time for yourself?

    Dispute Resolution is one of the most demanding practice areas. My day is a mix of court appearances, drafting, research work, client meetings and briefing senior counsels. The key lies in effective time management. One trick I have learnt and have followed over the years is to monitor my sleep cycle and squeeze some time either late in night or early morning and finish some chores at home. This allows me greater flexibility throughout the day and a window for attending to my family life. As Thomas Edison once said and I quote “Most people overeat 100 percent and oversleep 100 percent, because they like it. That extra 100 percent makes them unhealthy and inefficient”.

     

    Do Indian law firms value an LL.M. from abroad? Does the lack of an NLU tag hurt one’s chances?

    I feel in India you don’t get enough recognition or weightage for having obtained higher qualification. However, of late the trend has started to shift towards recognizing such higher qualifications, which bodes well for future aspirants who wish to pursue LL.M. from abroad.

    In so far as the lack of an NLU tag is concerned, I have not experienced any such discrimination. Unlike some firms around, JSA has a very open and acceptable culture towards other law schools. Here it is all about merit. You don’t get any extra stars for carrying an NLU chip on your shoulder.

     

    What suggestions would you have for aspirants looking at clearing the notoriously difficult AOR exam of the Supreme Court of India?

    (Divyam recently cleared the AOR exam and got the 4th rank)

    Be aware of the current legal position. There are so many legal initiatives which regularly notify us with new developments. Questions are often inspired by recent developments in law. Also it would be helpful to have practical exposure. Take time out and visit the Registry and Listing Branches of the Supreme Court with your office clerk and witness how court filings are actually done. This will really help you in understanding and appreciating the procedural aspect. And of course do not miss the lectures which are organized by Supreme Court Registry and Supreme Court Bar Association. They are very helpful.

     

    It is being debated whether there actually is a need of the AOR system in the Apex Court. What are your views on the necessity of the AOR system in the Supreme Court?

    AORs play a vital and constructive role in the justice delivery system. The court system being pyramidal in structure makes the Supreme Court as the Court of last resort, so it is imperative to have effective representation by an Advocate, who is trained and well equipped to deal with the niceties and requirements of the Supreme Court.

     

    Where do you see yourself a decade down the line?

    I live by what excites me in life. Presently, I am happy with what I am doing. The work continues to excite me and thus, I believe I see myself growing with the firm.

     

     

  • Shwetank Tripathi, Associate, Zeus Law, on the primary years of a lawyer

    Shwetank Tripathi, Associate, Zeus Law, on the primary years of a lawyer

    Shwetank Tripathi is an alumnus of the RMLNLU, Lucknow of the 2012 graduating batch. As a fresh law graduate, he started working in Zeus Law Associates and within a year was made part of the team looking after matters before the Company Law Board, New Delhi as well as the Indirect Tax Team.  His current work profile includes client-coordination, research on legal issues, drafting, filing, briefing Senior Counsels and strategy-making.

    In this interview he tells us about:

    • His first few months as a fresh law graduate
    • His experience in arguing matters as an advocate when he was fresh out of law school
    • How experience at an internship is different from working at a firm as a full-time employee
    • The experience and challenges of briefing senior counsels

     

    Please tell us about your law school days at RMLNLU. How did you balance academics and co-curricular activities?

    My 5 years at RMLNLU have been a huge learning curve for me, both academically as well as personally. Ours being a relatively new college, with only one batch senior to us, exposed us to myriad opportunities. Academics and co-curricular activities couldbe easily balanced by maintaining regularity and paying equal attention to both the areas.

     

    You have published papers in various prestigious journals. Can you give us tips to ace the art of paper writing?

    I believe that article-writing is a simple yet tricky task. It is very important to keep a track on the contemporary legal developments. One needs to pick a contemporary issue of interest, research upon the past legal position, analyse the present development, foresee a roadmap ahead and compile all those aspects together.

     

    How important do you think CPI/CGPA is in terms of one’s CV value? Is it an important factor during the recruitment process?

    (Shwetank had a fantastic CPI of 8.89/10)

    Well, no one has ever asked me yet as to what my CPI was. But having said that, I also believe that having a good grade is a safe bet. Most firms take into account grades as one of the significant factors during the initial screening. However, CPI alone cannot see you through; it has to be backed by co-curricular activities, and more importantly, the work experience at your internships.

     

    All your internships have been at top-notch firms.How did you go about securinggood internships and what advice would you give to young students reading this interview who want internships in topfirms?

    (Shwetank has interned at firms like Dua Associates, Amarchand, Karanjawala and Fox & Mandal)

    I have been fortunate enough to be able to secureinternships at known places. I could get most of the internships through friends and contacts. For securing an internship, it is important to prepare a well-written résumé, and maintain a constant follow-up with the concerned HR Department of the firm where the internship is sought.

     

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    How is the experience at an internship different from working at a firm as a full-time employee?

    Working as an intern and as an employee is a different ball-game altogether, in terms of the expectations and responsibilities. However, my internships have a big role to play in the career choice that I made for myself. I could get a first-hand experience of the challenges lying ahead, which helped me make an informed choice.

     

    How did you secure a job in Zeus Law fresh after your graduation.

    I had interned at Zeus for 4 months in my last year of law school. After graduating when I applied for the job, it was merely an informal meet-up and I began working immediately after college was over. The recruitment process involves preliminary screening of your résumé and subsequent personal interview.

     

    How tough were the first 6 months at your workplace?

    First six months are tough because you know nothing of the profession. But hard work and attentive attitude makes things simpler in no time.

     

    What are your day-to-day responsibilities? What is the most challenging aspect of your job? How has the experience been so far?

    Daily responsibilities include coordination with clients, drafting and attending matters before various courts. Most challenging aspect of a law firm job is the management of time. My experience so far has been enthralling.

     

    What is your work profile like right now?

    My current work profile entails overall responsibility of matters, including client-coordination, research on legal issues, drafting, filing, briefing Senior Counsels and attending various courts.

     

    Do you think that the curriculum of law schools can prepare the students for real practice?

    The law school curriculum and the actual practice are very different. However, it is very important to have a sound academic base, because once we start working, there is always a dearth of time to spend on the basics. I believe law school curriculum should be made more practice-oriented.

     

    How has your experience been in arguing matters as a fresh-out-of-law-school advocate? Are there any memorable instances you can share with us?

    Well, arguing matters before courts has always been the most thrilling part of mylife after law school. Although in a law firm practice you don’t get to argue that often, but I have been fortunate to get many such opportunities. Every instance when you werefully prepared, presented your case to your best and got a favourable order is a memorable instance.

     

    What are the benefits and challenges of briefing Senior Counsels? Do you believe they are able to add value to your clients’ arguments?

    Having a Senior Counsel on board is a big help for us as we get to learn various ways in which a case can be strategized to serve the best interest of the client. Senior Counsels definitely add value to the case prepared by us.

     

    What according to you makes for a strong firm culture? What do you believe leads to the high attrition rates in law firms?

    A strong firm culture mandatorily requires cohesion between the team members. I believe high attrition rates in law firms are mostly attributable to the challenging nature of the job.

     

    Is work-life balance an issue?

    At times, we are compelled to sacrifice on the personal front. But, there are also good leisure times. It is all about what one wants in life, and managing the personal and professional commitments with smart planning.

     

    If you could re-live your 5 years in law school, is there anything you would do differently?

    My 5 years at law school have been pretty satisfying. However, if I am given an opportunity to re-live those five years, I would aspire to read more.

     

    Where do you see yourself five years from now?

    I do not believe much in foresightedness. I aspire to keep up the motivation and continue to work hard.

     

    Lastly, what would be your message for our readers?

    My experience being limited to law firms, I would like to share with such aspirants that it is the easiest of the careers to pursue. Hard work and dedication is obviously required, but once you are sure you want to do this, everything else would gradually fall into place.

     

    This interview was taken by: Jyotsna Arora, USLLS, IP University

  • Sayali Phatak, Senior Vice President-Legal, Airtel, on work experience in Telecommunication Laws and the role of an In-House counsel

    Sayali Phatak, Senior Vice President-Legal, Airtel, on work experience in Telecommunication Laws and the role of an In-House counsel

    Sayali Phatak graduated in Political Science in 1988 from Lady Shriram College and thereafter qualified in law in 1991 from Delhi University. She joined JB Dadachanji & Co. soon after graduation and worked there for the next two years.

    In 1999, she joined the litigation team at Amarchand Mangaldas & Suresh A. Shroff & Co. (AMSAS as it was then called). Thereafter, she joined as a legal counsel at Airtel. Having joined and quit Accenture in between, Sayali is currently Senior Vice President-Legal at the Corporate office of the Bharti Group.

    In this interview, she talks about:

    • Her work experience at JB Dadachanji and AMSS,
    • Her work experience as a Senior Vice-President-Legal at the Bharti Corporate office,
    • The work profile and practice of an in-house lawyer.

     

    How would you introduce yourself in one line to our readers?

    I am a Senior Vice President-Legal at the Bharti Corporate office with experience as an in-house counsel of over 17 years. My main areas of practice include corporate litigation, transactions, and corporate advisory matters.

    I come from a family of lawyers and Law was a natural progression after my Political Science Honours from Lady Shriram College.

     

    Tell us about your time as a law student and your internship experiences in Delhi University.

    DU was fun and friends. There were many subjects over the period of three years. Contract law was of particular interest to me.

    We did not have any concept of compulsory internships and so I did not intern.

     

    Right after graduation, you joined JB Dadachanji and Co. Which practice areas did you deal with, in the years that you worked there?

    I worked at JBD for about two years from 1992 to 1994. I was in the litigation team, so most of my work included drafting, researching case law and briefing senior advocates.

     

    What was the experience in the firm like? What made you shift to Amarchand & Mangaldas & Suresh A Shroff & Co. in 1999?

    JBD was a great place and I am still in touch with my friends from then. They had a lot of good matters and we got very good exposure in drafting and briefing. While I was with JBD, I received an offer to join AMSAS as it was then. I joined AMSAS in 1999 after taking a break as my daughter was born in 1994. I initially worked part time there but later joined full-time.

    sayali-phatak-2

     

    What was your work experience like in Amarchand?

    At AMSAS, I was in the litigation team again. I got an opportunity to work in various fora, ranging from the Supreme Court, High Court, MRTP, DRT the consumer forum and the BIFR. It was a great learning ground and we worked with different clients and got an opportunity to learn drafting, preparing opinions, researching case laws all over again, and I had the opportunity to brief various senior counsel and occasionally appear in courts.

     

    After Amarchand, you joined the legal team of Bharti Airtel. What was the reason behind this shift, especially since you were working at a premier law firm?

    Working in a law firm helped me build a great grounding for me, but due to family reasons I shifted to in-house legal work where I felt it was less pressing.

     

    Tell us about a day in your life as a legal counsel. How different was the kind of work at Airtel from Amarchand?

    Being an in-house counsel has been very satisfying and challenging. The experience and learnings from JBD and AMSAS, especially in litigation, were very useful. As an in-house counsel one needs to understand the business requirement and accordingly advise the internal teams how to meet their business needs within the parameters of the law. Earlier in the law firms, I was doing mainly litigation but in-house changed to a mixed bag, of contracts, some fairly straightforward, some complicated ones and litigation.

     

    What attracted you to Telecommunication Law?

    Telecom is a very happening space. It has seen exponential growth and is meshed with technology to reach out to millions for a variety of issues through voice or data and thus touches all people in some manner or the other. Clearly it is fast paced and an exciting field, and this is exactly what got me interested to Telecommunications.

     

    Why did you shift to Accenture in 2007? How was the work experience different from Airtel?

    I got an opportunity to be the Lead Counsel for the India Domestic business for Accenture and so I took that up. It was my first experience with an MNC and it was a good learning to understand how to interact with teams across Asia Pacific, etc. and understand their processes.

     

    You thereafter moved back to Airtel.

    It’s always good to improve one’s skill sets. I got an opportunity to work at the Corporate Office of Bharti and worked on a lot of M&A transactions, bond issues and thus took this up.

     

    What is the nature of your work at Airtel presently? Is it true that work in-house is less stressing than at a firm?

    We at the corporate office do not have a lot of litigation which is mainly handled by the Airtel Team but I have been part of briefing sessions with some eminent senior counsel in some sensitive matters.

    The role of an in-house counsel has changed substantially over the last few years with many persons from law firms making the transition to in-house at various levels. As stated above the role of an in-house counsel is extremely challenging as we live with the business and have to take ownership of all matters, especially in organizations which are fast paced. Also briefing senior counsel is done for litigation matters but there is a lot of transactional and advisory work which happens internally. Further in litigation, a lot of strategizing is done in-house.

     

    Does working as a legal counsel get monotonous? How is it possible for one to keep experiencing new learning curves while working as a legal counsel?

    The role of an in-house counsel is far from monotonous for the reasons stated above. As regards experiencing new learning curves, as stated above, with a business which is fast paced and evolving one has no choice but to be ahead of the times and work with business to ensure that the business goes ahead.

     

    What would you advise law students who want to join in-house roles?

    My personal view is that young students must first do a few years of litigation and garner work experience with law firms. These would be extremely useful and would serve as an edge over others if one wishes to move in-house.

    Work as an in-house counsel requires collaborative and team effort. Each counsel is measured on how they are able to help the business achieve their objectives and thus all have to work with all teams in order to close the issue.

    Diligence, commercial insight, updated legal knowledge, attention to detail and good healthy relationships with internal customers is required if one wants to do well.

     

    What is your current work profile like? How do you balance work and personal life?

    I am currently leading a team of four colleagues and we provide full support to the Corporate office for all legal issues. Work life balance is something one has to achieve for oneself and there are spikes when there may be no weekends off, some with one day and some with both. If one finds one’s work exciting then all can be managed.

     

    What are your plans for the future?

    To continue what I am doing and learn new skill sets.

     

    What is the one advice you would like to give young law students?

    Law is an extremely versatile area and due to its far reach touching all aspects of life, it’s a great subject to study whether one wants to practice or teach or pursue other careers in environment, Human rights etc.

  • Jaya Kumar, Business Development Manager, J. Sagar Associates, on an unique work experience of Marketing+Law

    Jaya Kumar, Business Development Manager, J. Sagar Associates, on an unique work experience of Marketing+Law

    Jaya Kumar started out as a graduate of English Honours from Sophia College, Mumbai, then moving on to pursue a three-year law from G. J. Advani Law College, Mumbai, from 2005-2008. She decided to take an unconventional path of choosing Marketing over being a legal Associate, by first working with Rainmaker, then Trilegal, further moving on to I&S Associates, a corporate-commercial Indian law firm. She has now been working as a Business Development (BD) – Manager at J. Sagar Associates (JSA) since 2014.

    In this interview, she tells us about:

    • The experience of interning throughout the last two years of law college;
    • The reason behind choosing the managerial aspects of law over the more traditional ones of corporate law or litigation;
    • The experience of having worked for such different kind of firms, along with the different work profile she dealt with for each;
    • Her work as a Business Development Manager.

     

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers who are young lawyers and law students?

    I would call myself a lawyer by qualification, currently working as Business Development (BD) – Manager at J. Sagar Associates (JSA). I do understand law, but my interest is more on the marketing side of law. I have completed my English Majors from Sophia College, Mumbai, then proceeding to pursue a three-year law from G. J. Advani Law College, Mumbai.

    I started my career with Rainmaker, followed by Trilegal, then a stint at I&S Associates, and now at JSA.

     

    What prompted you to study law after completing your English Honours?

    I wanted to be a journalist, but as things planned out, I never got accepted in any journalism college, haha! My father kept telling me to opt for law, but I nevertheless reserved it as a backup plan. Thus I didn’t bother to make any serious efforts to apply in all the law colleges. I got accepted in G.J. Advani, and also since I am the third generation lawyer in the family, I opted for law as a career. However, I had no idea about the BD aspect of law. My internship at Rainmaker helped me to understand the details of marketing/ BD in the legal industry.  It was a new concept for me, and it sounded different and interesting.

     

    You are a graduate of the 3 years LL.B course from G. J. Advani Law College. Please tell us a little about your law school days. What kind of internships did you do?

    I was doing two internships simultaneously during the law college days (starting from the second year), one with a senior lawyer, Ms. Neelofar Akhtar at a Family Court, and the second one with Rainmaker, founded and co-founded by Mr. Sachin Malhan, Mr. Bhavin Patel and Mr. Ritvik Lukose, and they had just started developing products for the legal industry. My college timings were from 6: 30 am till 11: 30 am. I used to then go to the Family Court till 3: 00 pm, and thereafter to Rainmaker. I was trying to absorb as much as I could, in those two years.

     

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    What were your areas of interest during your graduation? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?

    As I mentioned earlier about my two internships, I was most interested in practical knowledge. Law for me was vast and strange till the first year, but by the second year, it started making sense in terms of both the theory and the marketing bit of the industry, because of the internships.

     

    Did you find that your law school education had prepared you sufficiently for the many tasks you were required to execute during your internships and later at your job?

    A law college only teaches you the theory part of the law, and not the aspect of marketing yourself or the firm, but I took it as a new curve in my growth, and learnt the unusual. Also, because I chose a different stream of work in the legal fraternity, I had more need of the practical aspect of the field of law, rather than the theory. Ironically, I never interned in any law firm, but I learnt on the job with Vahura, Trilegal, I&S Associates, and now JSA.

     

    Right after graduation, you joined Rainmaker as an Associate in their Sales and Marketing Department. What prompted you to choose the field of Marketing? How did you secure your appointment at Rainmaker?

    I applied directly to Rainmaker for an internship, and it all started from there. By my second year of college, I realised that if I put in more efforts, I can be a good marketing professional. After my internship, I decided to join Rainmaker as an employee, and started handling the Sales and Marketing for the Western India.

     

    What comprised your work in the Sales and Marketing Department as an Associate? What were the responsibilities you were entrusted with?

    At Rainmaker, we were developing products for law students and lawyers, especially litigating lawyers, and also people interested in LPOs. It involved travelling and meeting law schools, litigating lawyers and budding lawyers for whom joining LPOs was a good career option.

     

    Why have you chosen this particular avenue of Marketing and Business Development, and why not legal practice at a Corporate Law Firm?

    At my stint at Rainmaker, which is also a recruiting company for lawyers, I had not come across anyone doing BD as a full time job. After Rainmaker, I joined Trilegal and realised this is what I like, and because it was a different kind of work in the industry, I believed that the value of this kind of work will have more avenues once the market opens for international firms. At Trilegal, I had an opportunity to work with Allen & Overy (A&O), when the firms had a referral relationship. It was very exciting to work in that setup, and it made my decision stronger to do BD for a law firm, rather than provide a legal opinion, or do transactions.

     

     

    What led to your recruitment at Trilegal? Tell us about your recruitment process at Trilegal to our readers.

    When I was looking to move from Rainmaker, my mentor’s (at Rainmaker) wife was doing BD at Trilegal, and she was looking for a junior, as Trilegal was looking to build a BD team at the firm. He recommended my name to her. Mr. Karan Singh then interviewed me, and as I had some experience in sales and marketing, I was taken on board. I was lucky to work at Trilegal.

     

    Our readers would like to know about your work profile as an Associate of Business Development in a Top-tier law firm in India.

    As a BD professional, I am involved in the indirect marketing of the firm by assisting in the visibility of the firm. I assist the partners and the firm, as a whole, to maintain their presence in the market. Sector tapping and industry intelligence is another part of my job, along with helping the firm market itself, both nationally and internationally.

     

    What kind of Business Development skills should one require working in a Top-tier law firm like Trilegal?

    No law school or MBA school can teach you marketing in a legal firm, but the most important thing that one should have is the will to learn and take a risk of doing something different from the peers. Be it Trilegal or any other law firm, at a starting point, one should research well  on things such as what BD of a legal firm actually means, why a law firm is not allowed to market themselves, and what the difference between a direct and an indirect marketing is. Knowing some law helps, but even if you don’t have a law degree, you can still join the BD team. These skills can only be learnt on the job, but if BD is what one wants to be a part of, one has to be a people’s person, along with having a good hold on the language.

     

    You have worked with Trilegal [Mumbai office] for nearly 2 years and 5 months, as an Associate of Business Development of the firm. Share your work experience in brief to our readers. Was the work schedule hectic at times?

    Trilegal was the first law firm I worked at. My practical learning of BD at a law firm started then. I was lucky to work at Trilegal, and at a time when they had a referral relationship with A&O, it broadened my platform of learning. I did put in long hours, as I was new to the concept of BD, and I really wanted to understand and learn this side of the legal sector. Trilegal was very supportive.

     

    How did you start working at I&S Associates?

    I wanted to start growing as a professional and start implementing BD strategies, rather than only execute them. A friend who knew about an opening in I&S helped me get an interview slot there, and hence the job.

     

    You have worked with I&S Associates as a Head of the Strategy and Relationship segment. Tell us about your work experience at I&S Associates.

    I&S was a small firm founded by Ms. Anuradha Iyer and Ms. Bakhtiar Sunavala,and it gave me a way to start implementing my ideas. The partners were very cooperative and understanding about the new concept of BD. I was in I&S for two years.

     

    Currently, you are working as a Business Development Manager of J. Sagar Associates. How did you secure your appointment at J. Sagar Associates? Did you get an offer from the firm?

    JSA Mumbai was looking for someone who can do BD for their firm, and my name was recommended by Ms. Anuradha Iyer to Mr. Akshay Chudasama, who was looking to expand the BD team, and he then interviewed me. I then met Mr. Berjis Desai and Ms. Dina Wadia for the final confirmation. I was fortunate that they offered me the BD – Manager position.

     

    How difficult would you say it is, changing workplaces and creating a comfort zone all over again?

    With experience, it’s just a matter of time about how professional you are to be able adjust in a new place. One has to understand the culture of the firm, and take baby steps to make their mark. In my view, it’s not difficult to create a comfort zone all over again if the person is willing to learn. There are adjustments in any new place, but we have to learn to gel and focus on the growth, and other things will fall into place.

     

    Kindly walk us through your role at JSA. How different is it being a Business Development Manager from an Attorney?

    As the BD – Manager of the firm, I assist the firm in sustaining their visibility in the market. My role is to assist the partners and the firm as a whole, to develop new client relationship and strengthen the existing client relationships that we have. I help with the client events, deal submissions, cross – selling, proposals and pitches, attending conferences and also helping the partners to attend the relevant conferences/ seminars, rebranding, market intelligence and sector tapping, help the attorneys network etc.

     

    What are the main qualities that one should acquire to be successful in the Business Development field? Please share with our readers.

    Patience is the key to be successful, and as there are no specific courses or graphs that one can follow, it takes time to get the grip of the type of role a BD person needs to do. Also as attorneys are mostly busy with the deals, a BD person needs to follow up, not once, not twice, but several times, to get the information from them, and then send it out to the public domain. This needs patience, and an understanding that BD is important, but delivery to the client is also important for the partners and attorneys. As they juggle between everything, all they need is our support to market what they work on.

     

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    How is your experience so far? What is your workday like? Are there new challenges every day or did work fall into a predictable pattern?

    My experience has been very good till date. I am fortunate to have worked with the best since I started my journey. As all of us know that with lawyers nothing is predictable, and thus, most days are filled with some or the other kind of work. The category of work may be similar, but different clients have different demands. I am informed of these demands by the attorneys, and then I have to customise the research and information. Challenges are there, but with JSA being a very supportive and cooperative firm, work gets on time.

     

    What would be your parting message to law students who want to be successful in the Business Development field, and want to work as a BD Manager in a top-tier law firm like you?

    Nothing comes easy, so remember to have patience, and do not shy away from the hard work. As a BD professional, you will be the odd one out in the firm, but let that work in your favour, rather than making you feel lost. BD is an important function of the firm, so put your best foot forward to understand which firm requires what kind of BD, since some will need aggressive marketing, while some only need their visibility to be sustained.  Do your research on the firm and the partners of the firm well.

    Choose the right firms, but always choose the learning before anything.

  • Sudhir Mishra, Founder & Managing Partner, Trust Legal, on building an illustrious career in Environmental Law

    Sudhir Mishra, Founder & Managing Partner, Trust Legal, on building an illustrious career in Environmental Law

    Sudhir Mishra completed his graduation in History from Deshbandhu College, Delhi University. Thereafter in 1998, he finished his degree in Law from Campus Law Centre, Delhi University. Soon after graduation, he started his own law firm, Trust Legal, which specialises in environmental, health, financial services, securitisation, banking, oil and gas law practice, as well as alternative dispute resolution.

    In this interview, he speaks about:

    • Choosing a niche area such as Environment Law for specialisation
    • Starting his own full service law firm right after graduation
    • His most memorable transactions in Environment and Corporate Law

     

    How would you introduce yourself to our readers, who are young and aspiring lawyers?

    I am a first generation lawyer who was always very sure about one thing – that I will not join any law firm, but will start on my own. It was in the year 1998, when I plunged into the legal profession with all my belief, that one day this country will take note of me.

     

    What made you decide to have a career in law?

    I did not decide – it happened by accident and destiny. I was interviewed for IAS in 1998 and failed to clear it, and then was forced to a large extent by my father, who was a serving IAS officer, to take law as a career.

     

    What made you decide to become an independent legal professional, rather than joining a senior lawyer or law firm at the beginning of your career?

    As in 1998 there were very few law firms and I was already twenty eight (28) years of age, I had a lot of reluctance in undertaking prolonged training and working as a junior in a law office. I had great interest in environmental issues, and during my training with Ms. Pinki Anand, Senior Advocate and now Additional Solicitor General (ASG), I was very confident about kick starting my own practice, rather than being part of somebody else’s setup. I took everyday as a challenge, setup a small office at home and started visiting NGOs working in the field of Environmental Law. Somehow, there was a deep feeling inside me that I will succeed as a lawyer, which propelled and fuelled my ambition of being on my own. In three years’ time, by 2001, I was retained by close to five National and International NGO’s and was also working for Government Undertakings and lot of private companies. It was a time of excitement, uncertainty and thrill, and I loved every moment of it.

     

    What made you choose Environmental Law? Please tell us your experiences that made you focus your practice in environmental law.

    I was attracted to Environmental Law because there were very few lawyers involved in this field, and I had a great liking for environmental issues, most specifically Wildlife and Conservation.

     

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    Please tell us about the most memorable environmental law petitions you have litigated on.

    The two most important petitions which I followed and argued on Environmental Law have been:

    1. Stopping the road which was passing through the Jim Corbett Tiger Reserve, before the Supreme Court, and
    2. Stopping a wet land (World Bank Drainage) project, for the protection of Sarus Cranes, before the Allahabad High Court.

     

    Also, what have been your most memorable environmental law transactions on the corporate side?

    My most memorable environmental law transaction on the corporate side has been in helping the largest FDI in a tourism project for setting up a Ski Village in Manali (Himachal Pradesh), wherein I managed the Environment Impact Assessment (EIA), Environmental Clearance issues (EC) and Environmental Management Plans, by engaging with The Energy and Resources Institute (TERI) and Indian Institute of Forest Management (IIFM).

     

    What did you find appealing about working on your own?

    It’s like being a daily wage earner, who is a master of his own fate. Life is so uncertain that securing a career and a settled and a protected life is too boring.

     

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    From an independent legal practice to forming and running the boutique law firm Trust Legal – how challenging was your journey?

    I was left with little options, since the country had been acknowledging me as a prolific Environmental lawyer by 2003-2004. Infact, I went for the International Visitors Leadership Programme (IVLP 2005) organised by the US Government, owing to my pioneer work in Environmental Law in India. However, big commercial success was more a need and necessity for social recognition. I was married in 1999 to Mamta Tiwari, who became a Partner in Fox Mandal in the year 2001, and was regularly being voted amongst the top 20 Dispute Resolution Lawyers in Chambers & Partners, Legal 500, etc.

    Comparisons  started to happen, and it was very important for me to ensure that environmental law would pay just as well. We created the firm Trust Legal with that philosophy, and today we are the leading law firm representing all kinds of companies in India and abroad on Environment and Health law practice. Infact, Healthcare has become a bigger and major practice area of the firm, with Trust Legal representing more than 30 hospital groups across the country in litigation and corporate advisory. The firm is also very active in the field of Real Estate & Infrastructure, Oil and Gas and Banking & Finance law practice.

     

    What is your role as the Managing Partner of Trust Legal? What are the challenging and stressful aspects of managing and running a firm?

    As the Managing Partner of the firm, I encourage my team to think as entrepreneurs. My job is to ensure that the business of the firm is moving in the positive direction, salaries are paid on time, talented people are encouraged, along with ensuring the emotional and physical well-being of lawyers. There is nothing stressful in managing a law firm as a lead Partner, since your entire day is filled with excitement, and a sense of purpose and duty.

     

    What do you want to say to the next generation lawyers? Which are the growing areas of law where a new law student or young lawyer can focus and distinguish himself/ herself?

    I suggest that each lawyer should follow his/her own dreams, by assessing his/her own interest area, and then working accordingly. I believe that apart from environment; health, infrastructure, commercial litigation will also be  new big areas to focus on.

     

    Tell us about your early education, your place of graduation, your place for learning law and your experiences during student years.

    My early education was in a place called Siwan in Bihar, where most of my classes upto class 10th were conducted under a tree, as the school building was very depleted. I did my 10+2 from an even smaller town called Bankain Bihar, where my father was posted, and then I moved to Delhi University. I did my graduation from Deshbandhu College in History, and Law from Campus Law Centre, Delhi University. Most of my education upto class 12th was supervised by my father at home, who used to teach me personally, and there was a great emphasis on reading newspapers, books, autobiography and magazines from a very early age of my life. In my college and law school, my personality was greatly decided and shaped by my friends who all are well accomplished in their respective careers.

     

    Whom are you influenced by? Who is your role model?

    I am influenced by my father S.K. Misra (Ex IAS officer Bihar Cadre) and my role model is my cousin sister Sonal Mishra (IAS officer Gujarat Cadre). My father taught me that with confidence and integrity, anything is achievable. My sister Sonal taught me the spirit of hard work, determination and aiming very high. Her success in IAS in 1997 fuelled in me a desire to make a very big career in law.

     

    These days, most young law students look towards corporate law. What is your take on that?

    As I said earlier, one should not go by what everybody else is doing – the idea is to create your own destiny, your own line, your own fate, your own league. One should follow one’s instincts and never settle for something ordinary, or for quick returns. One should remember that it’s a long life and success should remain a guiding factor in your fifties and sixties, so the decision which you take in your twenties should not ruin your old age.

     

    What do you see as the future of legal profession? What message would you give to young law students and recent law graduates?

    The future of legal profession is superb, and is undergoing a silent revolution. Hundreds of more law firms will come to cater to increased economic activity within the country.

    My message to young law graduates is to create something new and long-lasting.

     

  • Umakanth Varottil, Assistant Professor, National University of Singapore, Ex-Amarchand Partner, on choosing academics over corporate practice

    Umakanth Varottil, Assistant Professor, National University of Singapore, Ex-Amarchand Partner, on choosing academics over corporate practice

    Prof. Dr. Umakanth Varottil is an Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law at the National University Singapore (NUS). He is an alumnus of the National Law School of India University, Bangalore, graduating in the year 1995. Soon after graduation, he joined Amarchand & Mangaldas & Suresh A. Shroff & Co. (AMSS), where he soon saw promotion to the post of a Partner. While at AMSS, he was ranked as a leading corporate/mergers & acquisitions lawyer in India by the Chambers global guide. He then went on to complete his Masters from the New York University School of Law (NYU) in 2007, and then his Ph.D. from NUS in 2010. He has since taught on a visiting basis at the Fordham Law School, New York, University of Trento, Italy, and at various law schools in India. He is the recipient of several academic medals and honours. At present, he is an Assistant Professor of Law at National University of Singapore (NUS).

    In this interview, he talks about :

    • His experience and journey from an Associate to a Partner at AMSS;
    • What made him leave AMSS for a life in legal academia;
    • His experience at NUS and NYU;
    • His PhD on the role of the independent directors in corporate governance;
    • Life as a Professor at NUS.

     

    How did you decide to study law? Were any of your close relatives lawyers?

    Since my late father was a lawyer, I was exposed to the legal profession from an early age. However, it was only after high school that I decided to follow his footsteps and take up law as a career choice for myself.

     

    How did the opportunity to study at NLSIU, Bangalore feel like? Do you recall your first day at the Halls of Residence? Would you like to share any observation/memory from those days?

    Securing admission into NLSIU Bangalore at that time was an entirely different ballgame from what it is today. At the time that I joined the law school, it was only two years old, with a great amount of uncertainty as to what lay in store for its students and graduates. Nevertheless, we were fortunate to have an eminent legal personality in the form of Dr. Madhava Menon at the helm of affairs, who led an able and dedicated team of law professors, which left no doubt in my mind that our professional future was not only secure, but also promising.

    Some of my early memories relates to my initiation into the study of law, which revolved around analysing various social issues from a legal perspective, and debating them in hope of arriving at a solution to real world problems. As any student would experience in the first year of law school, there are no definitive answers to questions or problems, and each issue is capable of being viewed from multiple points of view. Added to this was the Socratic method of teaching adopted in the law school, which tends to confound problems in the minds of students than to clarify or resolve them. It is much later that I realised that this phenomenon was by design, and not an accident. As I was a resident of Bangalore, I did not stay in the Halls of Residence. Since NLSIU was still in its initial stage of establishment and hostels were yet being constructed, residence on campus was not compulsory. As it turned out, most of us “day scholars” spent long hours on campus, which helped us partake in the community aspects of law school.

     

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    How did you always keep ahead of your batch as a student at NLSIU? What would be your message to those people who never score much but do well at internships and moots?

    In describing academic life in an Indian law school such as NLSIU, I have previously used a metaphor, which is that it is like playing Test cricket. Student life involves sustaining oneself over a five-year period with equal energy and drive, and the ability to handle countless exams, assignments, presentations and other commitments that law school demands, not to mention co-curricular activities such as moot courts, debates, and the like. Hence, it involves a great deal of patience and perseverance. I must add that I have been enlightened about these characteristics more as a matter of hindsight, and it is not as if I designed and implemented any specific plan or strategy while in law school.

    For the lack of any alternative methodology for assessing the competence and capabilities of law students, grades do continue to matter a lot. But it is also important to develop an all-round personality, which can be attained through co-curricular activities. While performance in law school (academic or co-curricular) matters to some extent, it often tends to have a limited bearing on one’s professional progress and success, which might depend on other factors that a graduate may imbibe after law school.

     

    Have you been in touch with your batchmates? Is it true that all graduates from NLSIU do extremely well in their careers? Do you find differences between graduates of NLSIU, other NLUs and other premier law institutes?

    Apart from imparting legal skills, NLSIU helped me forge very strong relationships with a wonderful group of batchmates (as well as seniors and juniors), which I continue to cherish to date. It is true that the NLSIU alumni network is a tight-knit one. In fact, my batch is celebrating its 20th year reunion at the end of this year, where we will be spending a weekend together along with our families.

    While there could be some differences between the graduates of NLSIU and other premier law institutions in India, I do not believe that they are significant. Ultimately, the top students from all of these institutions form part of the same crop, and have been successful in similar ways. It might be the case that more number of students from some law schools may have demonstrated a higher performance compared to the others. Over the years, I have developed professional relationships with graduates from several law schools around India. In my view, while the institutional quality and background are important, it is the capabilities and determination of individuals that matter more.

     

    You joined AMSS early on as an Associate. How was your journey from an Associate to Partner? Was it mostly about legal knowledge, or did it include business development as well?

    My early years as an associate at AMSS involved gaining experience in corporate transactions. I was fortunate not only to be working with a leading law firm in India and its managing partner, Mr. Cyril Shroff, but I was also the beneficiary of an unending flow of transactions following India’s economic liberalisation that witnessed several novel legal issues being considered in-depth. Of course, being made a Partner carries along with it, different demands, which include client management as well as human resource management (that takes a great deal of people skills).

     

    You must have been very young as a partner. As a law student, it’s very difficult to imagine joining the ranks of a partner in just 5-6 years of work. What all does it take to become a partner?

    At the outset, technical skills do matter, i.e. the knowledge of the law within one’s practice domain, which includes both substantive and procedural matters. In addition, skills such as conflict resolution, problem solving and acting as a “trusted” advisor to clients, are a hallmark of a competent partner. Then come other skills such as business development, human resources, and even financial management.

     

    Is it possible for a person who is not exceedingly well versed with Business Development and is not good at drawing clients to get promoted to the ranks of a partner? Would it take more time?

    It is ironical that while law schools teach the knowledge and skills pertaining to matters of law, the other skills, such as business development, are required to be developed by lawyers on the job. Some lawyers are excellent in technical legal skills, but they either do not have the capabilities, or are uninterested in the managerialaspects. In those scenarios, of course, there could be some constraints when it comes to promotion. Ultimately, this could depend on the policies of individual law firms. But, I do believe that there is always space for lawyers with good technical skills, and law firms and legal practices may ignore them at their own peril.

     

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    When did you actually find yourself getting drawn towards academics?

    This is a question I get asked all the time. When I was at AMSS, Bangalore, during weekends,I used to co-teach a seminar course on Mergers & Acquisitions at NLSIU along with Professor M.P.P. Pillai. The discussions in class,surrounding the theoretical and policy-level issues on areas that I was closely connected with in practice, attracted me towards taking up a full-time career in academia. Although I embarked on an academic career with a view to teaching, I discovered along the way that substantial emphasis is also placed on research and publications. I enjoy this combination of teaching and research in the areas of corporate law, corporate governance, mergers and acquisitions, and related subjects.

     

    How hard was the decision of leaving a well-established career as a partner of the largest law firm in the country, to take a plunge into academics?

    I was quite determined about embarking on a career in academia. However, given that I was leaving the profession after spending over a decade in it, many of my colleagues and friends felt that I was more likely to flirt with academia for a couple of years, and then promptly re-enter practice. But, that did not occur: I remain committed to the legal academy, and have not felt the urge to return to practice. At the same time, I continue to remain in touch with the profession through various means that helps me stay up to date with developments in practice.

     

    How did you select New York University School of Law among others? Was it any specific combination of modules that attracted you there?

    I chose the New York University School of Law (NYU) due to its focus on some of the key areas I was interested in, namely corporate, securities, and financial services law. Moreover, located in the heart of New York City, it also has access to professionals from leading law firms, accounting firms, and other financial intermediaries, who would often visit the institution to teach, and also to participate in seminars and conference.

     

    What was your topic of research for LL.M? Why did you choose that subject for research?

    Although I did an LL.M by coursework, I was required to write research papers on a couple of courses, which I found to be a valuable experience. In a seminar course titled “Topics in Corporate and Securities Law”, I wrote a paper on the role of independent directors in corporate governance. This has been a significant topic of interest world-over, not least in India. This paper also acted as a stepping stone for my PhD thesis on the topic subsequently at the National University of Singapore (NUS). At NYU, in another seminar course titled “Financing Development”, I wrote a paper on the use of the pari passu clause by lenders in sovereign debt documents, to block the debtor countries from making payments as part of a sovereign debt restructuring. This issue, as well, continues to hold sway till date, with litigation pertaining to Argentina under this clause making headlines, especially as they have been considered extensively by the US courts.

     

    How do you recall the faculty and facilities? Which other universities would you recommend for someone who cannot make it to NYU?

    I learnt considerably from my courses at NYU. Having practised Corporate Law in India for several years, it was a wonderful opportunity for me to compare the Indian law and practice, with those of other jurisdictions studied at NYU, including Delaware. Some of the professors and their teaching methodologies have had a significant impact on me, in that they have helped shape my own teaching philosophy and style.Apart from NYU, there are several other leading law schools in the US, UK, Singapore and Hong Kong, that have strong corporate and financial services law offerings.

     

    How did you choose NUS for your doctoral research? Tell us about your Ph.D thesis. Why did you choose that subject in particular?

    When I was at NYU, I came to learn a lot about NUS, as there was a collaboration between the two Universities for a joint LL.M programme. This was also consistent with my desire to stay in the Asian region, and closer to India. Hence, after consulting my classmate Arun Thiruvengadam, who was then teaching at NUS, I decided to apply for the doctoral programme there. As mentioned earlier, my PhD thesis dealt with the role of the independent directors in corporate governance, wherein I examined board independence in the context of emerging economies such as India and China, as it had previously been studied in the context of developed markets such as the US and the UK, where the agency problems relating to corporate governance were largely different. I chose that area in particular, as the concept of independent directors has confounded academics for some time now, with incomplete understanding of the utility of that institution in enhancing corporate governance. The concept continues to hold importance in India even now, with extensive codification in the Companies Act, 2013.

     

    Having taught at many universities in India, how would you compare it with the facilities and environment that NUS provides you? Do you find stark differences in administration between Singapore and India?

    NUS provides an excellent environment for both teaching and research. It has a diverse faculty and student body. While the LL.B students are mostly from Singapore, the LL.M students are from several countries around the world (including from far-flung areas such as Latin America), which makes teaching here truly global. There are indeed perceptible differences in the administration between Singapore and India. For example, the law school at NUS is situated within a larger University, which is over 100 years old and therefore endowed with significant experience and resources. On the other hand, the leading law schools in India are standalone establishments that are relatively younger, with greater flexibility in determining their own destinies.

     

    Is it possible that you may come back to India to teach? Do you look forward to that in near future? What all could probably could be the impediments, if at all you wished to come back?

    Of course, it is hard to make predictions for the future, but for the present, I offer short courses and guest lectures at various Indian law schools each year, which I thoroughly enjoy. Even though I am currently based in Singapore, I continue to remain closely connected with Indian legal education.

     

    What subjects are you currently teaching? What are your current research interests? Have you involved your students in your research?

    At NUS, I teach three courses. One is Company Law, a compulsory course for LL.B students, that involves teaching Singapore law, which is similar to Indian company law at a broad level (with both Singapore and Indian having originally inherited English company law), but with significant differences when one drills down into the details. The other two courses I teach are upper-level electives, namely Mergers and Acquisitions (M&A) and Indian Business Law. Elective courses are attended by third and fourth year LL.B students as well as LL.M students.

    My research interests are also on similar lines as my teaching. While my work is comparative in nature, I focus considerably on the laws of India and Singapore. I do involve research students in my work. While most of the research assistants tend to be NUS students (both LL.B and LL.M), I also often avail the services of students across various Indian law schools, particularly when the research material for a project is mostly available in India.

     

    Having won quite a few awards and honours for academic excellence and teaching, what would be your message to young professors?

    An academic career in law is an exciting one. It provides considerable freedom for young professors to delve into areas of their interest, both in terms of teaching and research. Several professors in India have established themselves as authorities in their respective fields, thereby garnering wide acclaim. They are also sought after by practitioners, policy-makers, and the Government. They have accomplished this through extensive research and publication of their work in leading academic journals, as well as through op-eds in the popular press that ensure a wider reach. My advice to young professors would be to identify their interest areas, and then build up domain expertise in those.

     

    Students often complain about high-handedness of faculty and administration in India, how do you propose we either find a solution to it, or change our own perspective?

    As I have already mentioned, Indian legal education continues to be moving along a steep learning-curve. The experimentation that began with the establishment of NLSIU, continues in one form or another. Given this trajectory, the path is not likely to be smooth. It would be presumptuous on my part to offer any solution, as the circumstances are rather complex. However, the key would be for the administration, faculty and students to work collectively to address various problems that are currently being faced. To go back to an incident that occurred when I was a law student, a proposal by the administration to raise tuition fees at NLSIU was met with stiff resistance from students, resulting in a deadlock. However, following successive rounds of negotiations between students and the administration, an acceptable solution was found, and the institution marched forward. Constant engagement between various constituencies within the legal education sector would be the key.

     

    Shifting to moot courts, how does one draft a winning memo? According to you, what is the difference between a great and an average memo?

    A good memo is one that is well-researched and expressed clearly. The grasp of the writer over the subject matter tends to be quite evident from its content and form. A great memo is also one that is very convincing. Ultimately, even in practice, a judge would decide a case based on (among other things) the written submissions of counsel, which must be clear, cogent and persuasive (supported by authorities).

     

    Do judges actually expect mooters to know everything about the law, or is there something else at play, as well?

    Successful mooting involves a combination of factors. Apart from knowledge of the law relating to the subject matter of the moot, it is necessary to master the facts (which often form the bone of contention). Thereafter, it is necessary to logically structure the arguments, which must be presented clearly. More importantly, mooters must be prepared to wriggle themselves out of a situation when they are caught off-guard by the judges. They must be able to think on their feet. Patience is another virtue that would come in handy in such situations.

     

    Lastly, what would be your message to people who want to take up a career in teaching?

    According to me, the idiom “Those who can’t do, teach” cannot be farther from the truth. It is no longer true that teaching is the last resort for a graduate in India. The academic world has attracted bright lawyers, and several excellent law students at their very early days, who have indicated their interest in teaching,and followed their single-minded pursuit towards attainment of their goals. Hence, I would encourage law students to consider an academic career. From my own experience, I have found academia to be extremely enriching and fulfilling.

  • Aarthi Sivanandh, Partner, J. Sagar Associates, on building a corporate law practice, merging Vichar Parters and LL.M from Tulane

    Aarthi Sivanandh, Partner, J. Sagar Associates, on building a corporate law practice, merging Vichar Parters and LL.M from Tulane

    Aarthi Sivanandh graduated in commerce from Stella Maris College in 1997 before deciding to pursue law from Tamil Nadu Doctor Ambedkar Law University. Thereafter, she attended Tulane University (US) on a scholarship and graduated the masters course in corporate law with distinction. Soon after she worked in California briefly as a foreign legal consultant before returning to India in 2004. On her return to India she was part of the founding partner team for Universal Legal. In 2010, she co-founded ‘Vichar Partners’ which merged into J.Sagar Associates in April 2014.

    In this interview she tells us about:

    • Degree in Law after commerce and subsequent international exposure
    • Building a corporate law practice in Chennai
    • Experiences in founding a law firm and its merger with Jyoti Sagar Associates
    • Role of a partner at one of the largest firms
    • Work life balance and necessary skills of a young lawyer

     

    You are a B.Com (Hons.) graduate from Stella Maris College. How did you decide to join Tamil Nadu Doctor Ambedkar Law University?

    I never envisioned myself as a lawyer. In my final year of undergrad college at Stella Maris, I had won an advertising competition that awarded me an internship offer at HTA. My mother promptly found me a friend of hers who was a company secretary who persuaded me to join the course lest I am lured by what they believed as the glamorous world of advertising. A short introduction to the intermediate course at the institute and I was captivated by law, thus the road to join the University in Chennai to pursue a degree in law.

     

    Soon after completing LL.B., you went to pursue Masters from Tulane University Law School. Why did you decide to go for higher studies?

    I was interested in corporate law but there were no law firms in Chennai in the late nineties, the city was flooded with court counsels. Litigation was the only thriving practice area and the city was well known for its stellar attorneys’ bar. I decided to visit Bangalore and Mumbai for an internship and found the firms there unwilling to entertain me except for one. It was a struggle to gain exposure to transactional or corporate practice. It was the time after an undergraduate degree when I was keen to discover the world, find new experiences. I had also won two scholarships to study abroad, so I decided to put them to use and get a Masters in Law degree.

     

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    Tell us about your LL.M year at Tulane. How did this influence your career?

    My time at Tulane was rewarding and fun filled, both intellectually and personally. New Orleans is the third most interesting city in the US after New York and San Francisco; this drew me to choose the foreign lawyers LL.M program at Tulane. My class had almost 130 people from more than 25 countries. The historic city that had fought Spanish and French wars, its streetcar and Audubon park still alive from the 1840’s and a milieu of international students was the background in which my mind grew.–

    The enriching dialogues and conversations between professor and student, the Socratic method of teaching, the non-judgmental easy ways that gave every attorney the time to compare how they learnt the law at their home countries and how they articulated themselves, changed my 23 year old mind at very fundamental levels.

    Nothing was unacceptable in the system and there were no wrong answers, there were only ‘different’ answers – This was a huge change from the way I was educated in Chennai.

    I learnt to respect other views, state my own clearly, be financially responsible, manage hard work, independence and be comfortable with strangers. I decided to work in the Valley on graduation and came home after 2 years. And like every person who returns home, I wanted to come back to Chennai and change the way people viewed the firm culture and practice of corporate law.

     

    You have been a corporate lawyer for most of your career. What prompted you to take up corporate law? Share with us any experience which helped you to shape your career choices.

    My late uncle was a real estate lawyer in the 80’s and my father though retired as a public prosecutor continues to work in dispute resolution on a range of matters. I would ask them where companies and others who ran businesses go for their work and they would both reply that those clients’ litigation needs were taken care of in the city but for ‘other work’ they would go to Mumbai or Bangalore or Delhi. While I enjoyed practising with litigation teams in the US (The Chugh Firm), on my return I began to focus only on corporate and transactions law in India and particularly in Chennai.

    The challenge to marry the various nuances of the law with the intricacies of forward looking business is both an opportunity and challenge to the transactions and corporate law practice.

    Many commercial relationships succeed without the fear of legal enforcement simply by relying on the discipline of the parties’ motivation to be fair, their prospect for future dealing, and the increasing premium they place on reputation.

    A quality legal product or service would therefore be one that fine-tunes incentives by providing for a broader range of contingencies that will in turn dramatically reduce the costs of dispute resolution. The challenge to achieve this intricate balance calls upon several skills. This held great appeal for me as a practice area and catered to my need for cleanliness in human and business interaction.

     

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    Considering the fact that you started your career in California, was it easy for you to settle in the work environment of India?

    The style of work communication and managing client expectations were the big differences in the work environments. When I moved to Chennai in 2006 there was still no law firm that was organically grown in Chennai with a true concept of equity or partnership.

    I was a part of Universal Legal in Chennai, India for 4 years that helped me start my career when I moved home. It was an entrepreneurial foray to set up and learn the way forward in term of setting up a practice. However, in many ways there was no ‘senior’ in India whose coat tails I could hold on to, the only choice was to play natural, observe and learn. I settled in easily, it’s a great city and its home. The community places a premium on fair relationships and quality work which were encouraging when I started. Many friendships over the years have given me an insight into the work environment that is unparalleled.

     

    You co-founded Vichar Partners in September, 2010. How did the idea germinate? Any specific reasons why you chose the name “Vichar Partners”?

    I had not always wanted to set up my own firm but one is an amalgam of everything and everyone they meet. The idea of the firm germinated with the usual impatience some lawyers feel in believing that they could fundamentally change things and grow a firm that can have an impact. The energy it required and the excitement of possibilities fuelled me.

    By 2010, I felt I had enjoyed the city, represented and worked with many clients who were willing to work with a non-branded non-legacy firm and had earned the trust of some of the business leaders in the city. I had sporadically but constantly dreamt of an organically grown firm in Chennai, with all its partners in Chennai catering to everything clients need in Chennai had gained momentum. The timing seemed apt when I met my great colleagues and partners Vinod Kumar and Chitra Narayan. Everything seemed ordained and there just seemed no point in waiting anymore.

    We wanted to institutionalise and build a full service law firm and to create a platform that awarded and energised lawyers on merit. We were keen to grow a fast paced technology based law firm that would deal with clients, timelines and quality in an effective manner.

    Our name was coined by to reflect the first 2 letters of each of our names but also that in Sanskrit. Vichar meant an idea, thought or opinion which was what our firm was. We were bound in our commitment to quality and our common belief in the ethical practice of law and business.

     

    In April, 2014, Vichar Partners was merged with Jyoti Sagar Associates, Chennai and you currently work as a Partner at JSA, Chennai. What prompted this merger?

    Vichar Partners entered the market with large aspirations on being the “go-to” firm in Chennai for corporate, commercial, transaction and niche litigation work. We grew considerably well in terms of repute, associate strength and the quality of work we were handling but we did see market realities in a comparatively smaller geography. Talented young corporate lawyers were tough to find in Chennai as the city had deep roots based solely in dispute resolution and transactional work was getting outsourced which meant there was no investment in building younger lawyers in this area, or finding administrative paralegal support to handle large transactions.

    In our third year we found ourselves on other sides of the table with JSA several times, while internally we were intrigued and absorbed on the next level of growth for Vichar. A matter of timing and providence, the potential for a combination seemed complimentary to both our firms.

    Somasekhar from our Mumbai office was a significant influence when he first met us with the idea, later interactions with Murali from our Bangalore office, Amit from our Delhi Office and Dina from our Mumbai office confirmed we were on the right path to considering a merger. Of course, the powerful work ethic and integrity of the leadership of Berjis and Jyoti preceded the reputation of JSA and in the end it was almost a natural selection

    While some may try to refute this, I do believe that large law firms attract the best talent, provide superior training and mentoring, and would transform the inexperienced into an exceptionally skilled attorney. This in turn allows such firms to attract sophisticated clients, handle cutting-edge transactions and manage the greatest deal flows. A combination of these ingredients on a consistent basis offers the best opportunity to develop as a lawyer.

     

    What does a partner at a law firm like JSA do? What falls within the scope of your responsibility? Tell us about a typical work day.

    No day is like another. They are unstructured, sometimes meditative in working through a solution or reactive mode to urgencies or filled with telephone calls. Typically, the day is filled with interactions with potential clients, ongoing work and associates.
    A typical day would start with getting a handle on all the client matters going on, different transactions or other mandates involving opinions or structuring a business, that is either readying itself for a sale or targeting a purchase – the task of managing responses to all of them and understanding if their strategies fit within the walls of the law. I prioritize and coordinate with my colleagues who are working with me based on what stage each transaction or the firm’s involvement is at. Once the background work and schedules are set within the team, active participation in calls or negotiations begin, with each party at the table having multiple commercial requirements and legal must- haves. The forward looking protections that are required in an ever changing commercial background can require one to bring to bear an understanding of economics, commerce, industry and the law.

    Timelines can stretch for various reasons from parties posturing for the right leverage or purely for commercial purposes. The loop repeats and until innovative structuring, alignment of interests and final negotiations find balance– sometimes takes several months.

     

    What is the most challenging or stressful part of being a Partner at one of the most successful law firms in the country? Is it easy to have a work-life balance?

    Challenges are continuous, no piece of work is alike and the constant commercial and market changes require one to keep pace with it and opine within the four corners of the law The challenge is to use the right proportion of legal logic, commercial reasoning and fair persuasion on behalf of a client. Negotiations too are often like a puzzle, you may know where the piece goes but you also have to time when you place the piece in the puzzle so as to let others help you complete it. Being calm and composed in all kinds of crisis situations and timeline based advice is also a challenging aspect of the practice.

    No, it’s not “easy” to have a work life balance. Having said that, I don’t believe work to life balance should be 50-50, at different points of life the balance scale shifts sometimes 60-40 and at other times say 40-60. I have two kids aged 7 & 3 who like to do the typical things kids of that age do– play constantly, run, go to classes etc. With a good support system I manage to do some of it with them but not all. If you think of it all as a part of leading a “whole life” then it makes sense than try to slot each activity into a bucket of either work or life. A true partner/spouse who understands the nature of work can help immensely in keeping this balance. JSA is an even keeled firm, with a great set of people and that makes the road saner and easier.

     

    What kind of effort should a young associate put in to work to get it appreciated? What distinguishes an associate from a partner when it comes to work?

    A young associate should have a keen mind that should be somewhat of a sponge – that absorbs everything in and around, taught and not taught and a thirst to learn. The law school rote method won’t let you stay afloat in a law firm but resourcefulness and hard work will. There are no short cuts.

    The outside world and fresh off the boat lawyers are often enamoured by the pay a corporate practice offers but often fail to see the immense hard work that goes into the practice. There must be a very good reason other than money that makes one want to continue to pump in some very crazy hours, bear with challenging transaction requirements, clients who are bound to be low on patience if they are in stressed commercial situations and to sustain it all, for days to end– it’s a time vampire.

    Associates are central to a Partner’s practice. The more they learn and give the more they grow, the more they grow the Partner can expose them to a variety of work. No show is a one man show, the synchronised timing and effort of the associate team in building research knowledge, knowledge management, prompt interactions with clients on status updates or first level drafts and so can assist the Partner to build on the same to have deeper discussions, develop negotiation strategies, understand commercial requirements and enhance the quality of the practice.

     

    How important would you say are business development skills at such higher roles in a corporate law firm?

    The role of business development is a key component in a law firm. The firm has only one asset – its people. Amongst the people not everyone is required to concentrate on business development but is a requirement on the senior resources. If a senior resource can garner client confidence, provide resourcefulness and deliver as required the firms credibility grows. The larger the pool of senior resources the larger the palette of services the firm can successfully offer. The symbiotic relationship of different partners in the firm are the strong links the firm builds through its people assets in the community. I would say these skills are critical and second to none.

     

    Having a centralised HR what do you have to say about students writing to partners directly?

    JSA is a national law firm and our internship process, recruitment process – all HR functions are centralised. Applications are usually submitted at the internship or careers link on our website. Sometimes, students write to partners or associates they have met or have a relationship with through some other professional forums, while this affords familiarity with the candidate it still depends on the requirement of the location partners and of the firm at each level.

     

    When you hire lawyers under you, what specific skills and profile do you look for?

    Law school education is becoming more adept at providing attorneys with transactional skills. Generally, however, it still falls short. When I hire for my team, I look for students who worked extra hard to find some baseline transactional competencies or have devised ways to achieve them through internships, reading, taking courses at the institutes for extra focus on particular areas of law or part timing at corporate law firms.

    Given where things are in terms of corporate/transactional law practice outside of Mumbai and Delhi and given the gap between law school education and the transactional competencies that are required, it is incumbent upon the lawyer to be competent and take whatever steps necessary to educate herself to become so.

    Fresh graduates can build on their ability to understand business associations, basic advice about business structures, and draft documents related to business associations and secondly to investigate and understand facts and research the law in a given context (emphasis on due diligence).

    Working lawyers or lateral hires in addition to the above should be able to draft clearly, have thorough research skills, be able to walk a colleague or client through the process of identifying what the issues are, rules of law in play given the issues, applicability of law to the issues and finally a conclusion. They must be able to also identify and address the ethical implications of practice.

     

    What would be your advice to students who wish to go for higher studies?

    A degree for the sake of it would serve no end. However, some are geared to appreciating the jurisprudential thought involved and understand nuances better when the learning is organized through curriculum while others are adept to picking it up as they work with counsels or at law firms. A higher education abroad gives an exposure early on in a student’s career to the different styles practices and legal markets in the world. In my personal experience, these courses often help in wide network of friends in different regions and a style in writing and thought that could be unparalleled but I would not unduly overemphasise the need for a practitioner to obtain a master of laws degree.

     

    What would be your message to our readers who are budding lawyers and law students?

    Clarity in thought and expression is the single most important quality for a practising lawyer today. This assists in honing the ability to identify, evaluate, and understand business risks for clients and in turn offer appropriate legal advice. Invest in yourself constantly, by reading and understanding the rules of law both at home and abroad, this will enable one to compare contrast and therefore learn. The law is known to be a jealous mistress; you will have to give a lot to get some.