Was pursuing law pre-planned for you or did it happen by chance?
Legal profession was my deliberate choice. Since my childhood I have been passionate about my rights, rights of others, human rights, justice and the degree of compatibility of state’s legislation with law.
What were the struggles you faced in the beginning?
I gained my first legal experience when I was a teenager. When I was sixteen I helped my parents in their litigations. It was arduous and disappointing sometimes. I saw incompetent judges, judges who neglected and perverted the law. And I saw plenty of pieces of legislation which were obviously outdated or unjust.
My family was poor, that is why I started my legal education as military-police cadet (this option is completely paid by the state), this way demanded hard work not only to master the subjects but also to pursue some police duties.
Additionally, I managed to participate in some legal scientific societies, conferences and provide vulnerable people with legal advice and help for free. During my study I got acquainted with ICRC activities and became true adherent of ICRC and IHL.
When I graduated from the university, I gave up the career at the police service because the reality there was far from principles of rule of law and human rights priorities. Then it turned out that graduated professionals with the background of police universities are much less demanded on the market.
That is why I had to develop, approve and demonstrate the highest level of legal professionality continuously. I tried to obtain advanced experience, pursue scientific researches and started working as lecturer in law.
According to you Denis, as a law student, where should the focus be on, the hard work on academics or smart work on networking and building a great skill-set?
I think both elements are important. They complement each other. Networking helps you demonstrate your competence but you should actually have what to demonstrate.
What are your views on AI or legal tech adoption, what restrictions will it have in the coming years?
Every technology may be used for good and for evil, particularly, technologies which we currently embrace under AI umbrella term. These technologies are able to improve our life enormously but on the other hand they might affect human societies devastatingly.
Particular concerns are connected to potential loss of human control, dehumanization of decision-making, surveillance, profiling and manipulation of will. Threats regarding to automation of weapon also should be stressed.
AI needs regulation as well as we regulate nuclear energy. I believe that we should regulate such powerful technology both on international and domestic level in order to put human first and make technology serve people and uplift humans’ personality, not degrade it, prevent inflicting harm and misuse of AI systems.
Denis, you’ve been quite active as a Data Protection Officer since Feb 2022, what are the roles and responsibilities of the same?
To cut a long story short, I’m responsible for development and maintaining Privacy Management System throughout AI lifecycle, including design stage, collecting data, forming dataset training of the model, its testing and deployment.
On the one hand I should assess whether we are entitled to use particular data for development of particular model (indicate personal data, assess purposes of processing, define necessary amount of data, minimize data and processing operations, chose appropriate legal ground for processing, provide transparent communication with data subjects, weight up their reasonable expectations and the context of processing, define storage period and destruction mechanism as well as protective measures, etc.).
On the other hand my role is to assess the possible impact of particular AI solution on data subjects’ rights and freedoms.
DPO is both the advocate of data subject defending human rights as well as business assistant helping to find and implement solutions which are compliant with law and comfortable for users. Correlating these two points is crucial to implement Privacy by Design.
Another significant thing is definition of applicable law and rationalizing legal requirements of different jurisdictions. It is also important to be familiar with world-best trends and approaches and be ready to implement them. Additionally, it is worth to be mentioned that DPO should make sure that all employees are aware of data protection issues and able to handle data in accordance with internal policies.
That is why I spend huge amount of time educating and training our staff to communicate with people.
What are the strategies that may help someone to clear the certifications for CIPM, FIP, GDPR DPP and GDPR DPM?
From my point of view, the best strategy is to combine theory and practice, to educate oneself continuously and try to implement all new knowledge in practice immediately.
Denis, can you please share the compliances for AI and legal tech in Russia?
Russia is prominent by its IT professionals including the field of AI. Currently many small and medium companies are leaving Russia because of political instability, but leaders are in place. These are mainly two hugest companies: Sber (not only Sberbank, but the group of companies on the whole) and Yandex Group. Speaking about legal tech, I’d indicate such companies as Pravo.ru, Kept (former KPMG) Seamless (former CMS), Consultant, Garant and others.
As someone who is passionate about pursuing law in Russia, what are brownie points one need to always look out for?
Russia is European country and belongs to European continental legal tradition. Russian legal system by its nature is an example of civil law jurisdiction based on Roman legal heritage. The composition of system and vast majority of legal institutions are derived from French ones, some from German.
Influence of English law took place but was not significant. Robust French-fashion frame of law is spoil by some unreasonable derivations and poor enforcement and legal culture. Utmost positivism is a predominant way of thinking among practitioners.
That is why it is useful to explore Russian law in the context of European jurisprudence, particularly, French.
Unfortunately, currently it is not the best time for jurisprudence in Russia. Legal system is not in well fit and it is continuing to be erased. Almost each new piece of legislation undermines coherence and predictability of legal order. It seems like Russian rulers are trying to follow all bad examples of Lon Fuller’s Rex.
True sense and purposes of law are quite frequently perverted and misused during the application and enforcement. Independent judiciary does not exist. Truly speaking, the rule of law at all does not exist.
We need a new generation of lawyers who could reinforce rule of law, priority of internationally recognised principles, universal human rights, predictability and coherence of legal system.
Lastly, any advice for our young legal professionals?
Stick to your principles and aways remember that lawyer’s mission is to protect human rights and uphold rule of law and justice rather than merely apply legislation. You should be able to find law behind sophisticated and controversial language of legal texts.
It is up to you to be creators rather than executors and improve your legal system and legal environment.
What motivated you to choose law and how do you see the competition since the time you started pursuing your career?
I remember back in high school, my dad asked me to pick a career path. I didn’t know what it’d be at that time but I wanted something that’d combine both my passions, strategy & public speaking. When I did pick law, it wasn’t so much for altruistic reasons as wanting to do something intellectually stimulating, that I’d really enjoy.
I don’t believe you truly discover an industry until you’re neck deep in it. Popular media would have you believe law’s all sunshine & rainbows but there’s just as much trudging through the trenches before you get to the meadows.
To that end, it’s highly competitive. Wanting out of the rat race means deeply honing your craft, developing highly effective & transferable
skills & often, specialising in a single niche. If you’re able to do that & enjoy it, the competition becomes healthy & the profession rewarding!
There was a time Ananya when we had no advancements in terms of tech tools for legal projects, now it has changed, what are your views on the same?
I have to be honest, I was blessed enough to enter the profession when indexing apps & research softwares were a thing & I’m all the more thankful for it.
There’s a lot to be said about legal tech. In a number of ways, it’s revolutionised the way we get things done, more so in this era of remote work. The automation & efficiency has led to increased client satisfaction which lends itself to greater profitability & wider market reach.
However, we’re talking about tools at the end of the day. A sword is only as good as the man who wields it. It’s how lawyers leverage the tech available to them that ultimately determines their true utility.
Ananya, our audience wants to know what are the advantages and disadvantages for a Non-Nlu Student?
Ah the self-limiting titles we impose upon ourselves! I always had my sights set on the NLUs. Everyone I spoke to, everything I read, had led me to believe that was the only way to go. So when due to a rough period in my life, I couldn’t go to one, despite qualifying for one of the best NLUs in the country, I felt lost.
For a huge chunk of time, I struggled with a strange sort of handicapping disappointment. The thought of graduating from a lesser known university can undermine your confidence. But knowing what I do now, I wouldn’t get too hung up on the stigma.
The only merit NLUs have over non-NLUs is the launchpad they provide to your career in terms of perceived value & the opportunity to network with other budding lawyers & professors who perhaps share the same amount of passion as you. Beyond that it’s really each man to his own.
The advantage of being a non-NLU graduate is it forces you out of your comfort zone. You’re not spoon-fed the best resources. You empower yourself, through observation & error. You go beyond the bare minimum, adding more job-ready skills & achievements to your repertoire. It teaches you to become more enterprising. It’s a long winded journey but the hard work pays off multifold eventually.
Do you think Ananya that these new aspects such as NFT’s, Blockchain etc violate the standards of privacy and secrecy?
Privacy legislations, from their inception, weren’t drafted keeping blockchains & NFTs in mind. For that reason, while I don’t believe they’re averse to privacy per se, I do believe there’s a strong need to rethink our regulations to keep up.
As things currently stand, NFTs & blockchain technology may provide a strong illusion of anonymity, but the inherent risks to privacy can’t be overlooked. Data protection guarantees like the right to be forgotten don’t extend themselves to blockchain autonomously, the standard of cybersecurity currently deployed to protect NFTs is dubious at best & identity theft in this space is a legitimate concern.
Striking a balance between steadily growing technology & the delicate boundaries of privacy might just be the solution.
Any specific roadmap you followed for the IAPP certification programme?
IAPP provides comprehensive, albeit sometimes confusing, guidelines on how to prepare for their certifications exams. Where most people get stuck is understanding the practical application of things. You see, IAPP tests you, not on how much you can memorise & learn but what you can apply & help operationalise. And the textbook only goes so far with that.
The roadmap I followed was learning with a mentor. Your journey becomes so much easier when you have someone to show you the ropes. It really comes down to doing things the right way. Do you just want to pass an exam for the sake of it? Or do you want to learn how things are done so you can do your job properly? One gets you a piece of paper that can only get your foot in the door & the other gets you the role, the promotion, the pay hike & the credibility.
AI will take the job of Lawyers, how far do you think this will happen? Or Maybe you think that has already started happening?
Law, at its very core, is innately human. AI is an aid, not a solution. While indispensable in its utility, I don’t believe it’ll ever replace lawyers.
That said, the tech we use today does cut into a huge chunk of the market that was traditionally sourced by entry-level workforce. However, I like to look at it as an inevitable but temporary impediment to demand, that will ultimately create more opportunities for lawyers to step away from menial tasks & come into more skillset rich roles.
AI can help you draft, monitor, recommend & even predict, but it’s ultimately dependent on human judgment to bring it to fruition & I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
If not a lawyer, what Ananya Patil would have been in life?
I’d love to be an author! There’s something about putting pen to paper that’s so gratifying. I’d love to play with words, weave emotions into them & tell stories.
Some advice for our young law professionals?
Look at yourself as a business. You are after all, a brand in & of yourself. Like every business, you need to invest in yourself to grow. It’s a skillset based market.
What skills can you pick up to cater to the demand? If no one’s buying your product, you’re not targeting their needs effectively.
What tweaks can you make to your CV? Good customer service often births resounding word of mouth. Is your client happy with your work?
Most people don’t realise they can create opportunities for themselves. That’s where you can gain an edge. Network & observe.
What problems can you solve? Being a great lawyer is seldom only about the law. Yet, that’s where the majority gets hung up. Look beyond the conventional & brainstorm ways to differentiate yourself.
Was doing law pre-planned or did you instantly make a decision to pursue law?
Yes, doing law was pre-planned. My father who is also law graduate from Delhi University introduced me to the law and law books. We used to have a small library at home where I enjoyed reading the case laws on contracts, IPC etc.
When I went to do B. Com (H), I was introduced to contracts law, sale of goods, partnership, and property laws, where the actual journey to understand the law started. To further enhance my knowledge of law, I also decided to pursue the Company Secretary course which provided me more insight into finance and taxation, and the law governing the corporate entities.
Having more than 2 decades of experience in the legal industry, what strategies keep you going in this profession?
The strategy which keeps me going is that I always consider myself a student. As a student, I am open to new learnings, changes and challenges.
As a law student, I developed the habit of observing and learning, before interpreting and applying. While working as an in-house lawyer, I realized that to have legal knowledge is not enough; hence, I worked myself to understand the other facets of the business, competition, industry, and kept myself updated on foreign economic and regulatory environment, as well.
During my career, I also faced a few up and downs which fortunately helped me develop a network of mentors, comprising individuals who have supported me during testing times.
Do you think after doing CS, it’s an easy sail for every legal professional in the corporate world? We have heard opposing arguments though from some people!
Nothing is easy in the corporate world if you are a legal professional. The Company Secretary Course will help you understand the way in which an organization operates and functions. If you wish to work in the Legal Team of a company, then the Company Secretary course is a good option as it is designed to give you knowledge in various subjects and areas which are beyond the law as well.
The Company Secretary works as a link between the company and its board of directors, shareholders, government, and various regulatory authorities.
Hence, they take up diverse roles in the management, taxation and finance departments of a company and help the company in all such areas. It is incorrect to say that Company Secretary course is an easy sail; it should be kept in mind that every professional in the corporate world must prove their worth and deliver results to move up the ladder.
Avneesh as you are experienced in dealing with POSH cases, we have heard a lot about “Quid Pro Quo Harassment” and what are the punishments for the same?
In Latin, “Quid-Pro-Quo” means “something for something”. Quid pro quo sexual harassment occurs when employment, pay, benefits, title, position or other opportunities for advancement or training, are conditioned upon the submission to unwelcome sexual advances.
Quid-pro-quo is a serious offence. It is extremely important to be very clear and transparent in all businesses dealing with employees at the workplace. The punishment depends upon a case-to-case basis ranging from disciplinary action including a written apology, reprimand, warning, censure withholding of promotion/ pay raise/ increment, termination of employment, undergo counselling etc. In some matters, it could also lead to a criminal complaint against the perpetrator.
Reg -Tech is helpful they say in doing compliance’s, how far do you believe this?
Definitely, any tool and technology which reduces human efforts and intervention are going to help. In a digital environment featuring complex business structures with the change of law and regulations almost happening on daily basis, organizations require tools that will keep them up to date with the latest regulatory changes thereby minimizing the likelihood of human error.
Reg-Tech can also provide increased confidence in meeting board agendas pertaining to issues such as transparency and proactive reporting of risks and compliance. This technology also allows companies to meet regulatory-driven data activities and support submissions to regulatory bodies in an accurate and consistent manner.
However, before implementing and recommending Reg-Tech, we as lawyers need to learn about the technology, its architecture, data models, as well as algorithms.
We also need to understand cross-functional teams for evaluating the risks, beyond the legal risk of using manual and automated processes, along with the legal risks related to any specific Reg-Tech product. Data protection and privacy remain the most important factors to consider when using Reg-Tech.
As tech startups are growing like never before, do you think our data is protected and the level of secrecy is maintained?
Data is growing faster than ever. Data secrecy and conditionality are prime concerns of General Counsels (GCs). The prevalence of cyber-attacks, frauds & crime and the emergence of new regulations like CERT guidelines are forcing boards and their GCs to work closely with the chief information security officer (CISO) to make decisions about how to protect the company against cyber-attacks, respond to data breaches as well as other attacks, while complying with applicable data protection laws.
My personal experience suggests that many tech start-ups are not investing enough time & sources and are not incorporating privacy as the default.
In recent times, we have seen the Government withdrawing the personal data protection (PDP) Bill after receiving concerns from Indian start-ups, which suggest that data localization requirements in the draft PDP Bill are too “compliance intensive” and could hamper the ease of doing business and stifle innovation.
The same may be true, however data security and confidentially should be paramount and should be a part of the core DNA of any start-up or organization. The tech start-ups should consider data privacy as part of their core foundation before offering any products, services, and processing data, which will enable them to be future-ready. Further, it will bring transparency and trust among the users and customers.
How do you see the corporate world serving more opportunities to individuals in the legal world?
Multiple opportunities are available in the corporate world for individuals. The legal department as business partners must take ownership and support the overall success of a company.
Depending on the nature and size of the business, in-house legal work has been rising in volume, especially in specific areas like environment & safety, data protection & privacy, competition law as well as other regulatory & compliance work arising out of amendments and change in law, compliance breaches, intellectual property protection, M&A etc.
Another reason for the increase in legal work is the growing attention to legal budget control and better risk management, whereby in-house lawyers’ must have more knowledge about the company as compared to external lawyers.
At present, many lawyers are contributing to multiple facets of the organization such as corporate governance, contracts, litigation, compliances, ethics, investigation, internal control & audit, employment, data privacy as well as other security matters, corporate social responsibility, policy advocacy & liaison, taxation and finance.
The key attribute for an individual to grow in the corporate world is that they should have commercial sense, be willing to learn, explore new opportunities and be ready to work outside their comfort zone.
Any advice for our readers?
To succeed as an in-house lawyer, you need to be proactive, flexible, find solutions and communicate them in a concise and simple manner. You must understand the business, the industry, collaborate more with other businesses, build trust, and relationships. One must also ensure the alignment of expectations and communicate them. It is also important to remain a lifelong learner.
In today’s dynamic environment, if you can think and act as entrepreneur, the same is going to help you immensely.
What was your motivation behind choosing law as a career?
This was more of a destiny than a chosen path. I always wanted to do MBA and be in corporate Management. Post high School while exploring career options I came to know about National Law Schools, and in the meantime NLU Patna started. While going in depth I got to know the plethora of opportunity a law student can have post completion of the degree.
I figured out that choosing Law as a career option will be academically challenging and financially & personally rewarding. I thought choosing law would help me in improving my standard of thoughts, skills & knowledge. With this thought process I sat for entrance exam and got admission in NLU.
How has been your journey in this profession so far? And do you think first generation lawyers have to face more challenges than the one’s having already a family of lawyers?
Prior to globalization, there were very limited option for a law graduate to opt for. Post completion of law most of the candidates will have to go for litigation only. Moreover, for a first generation lawyer it would be difficult to even have a decent earning out of it. Most of the law students were forced to join any senior counsel wherein the incentives were very low or I would say nil. Nevertheless, this changes post globalization, plethora of opportunity were introduced in the legal field. Recent times a law graduate can opt for Litigation or Corporate Legal or Law firms or LPOs or any other intermediary platforms.
Talking about my Journey I will definitely say that I have focused on the long run and tried to put my hands on every aspects of Legal field. Today’s time a GC position requires having hands on experience in Legal, Compliance, Risk and Audit. After 10 years post completion of my degree, when I look back there were so many different areas I have explored and I can definitely tell other aspiring lawyers to not only have full control over your current profile but also be keen to take risk and explore what more this profession can offer in various diversities.
What are the challenges while coordinating with various departments and conducting fraud investigations, as far as I believe this takes a lot of time and research, so how do you prepare yourself?
Every fraud investigation is different and unique in nature so you cannot apply your same textbook strategy on every case you have. You have to keep yourself upgraded and you have to use your experience, knowledge and common sense in every case.
The key role of fraud investigator is to catch hold of the perpetrators but most importantly, our role is to create deterrence in the system to avoid further frauds. Fraudster’s will keep on finding loopholes in the system and policies and we have to keep finding different ways to catch hold of these people.
Working endlessly and achieving so much at such a young age requires constant motivation and a crystal clear vision as well, so what’s your mantra for the same?
Motivation will only come when you love your profession and you are ready to face new challenges. I had a neck for wanting to know everything what is going on behind the scene since childhood. This aptitude in me kept me interested and motivated to find out the truth in every investigation I do. This profession poses you with different set of challenges every day, its one of the most dynamic role one can do. My Mantra is very simple. Work with full dedication and take things to logical conclusion, achievement and success will follow.
Are conducting insurance compliances somehow different from others or If I ask you how do you make it easier and efficient?
The Fraud Risk and compliance functions of an Insurance Company are expected not only to protecting insurance companies from downside risks but also to shift toward providing them with strategic advice to support growth and changes.
To execute these responsibilities, we as a function must be agile and proactive, delivering results cost-efficiently. We must tap into the power of advanced analytics and automation so that people can focus entirely on the activities that most need human judgement: mapping key processes and leveraging technology advances. We always focus on modernizing the rigid legacy systems and processes that inhibit the sharing and crosschecking of data in a timely manner, which is vital to evaluating exposures.
What are the opportunities ahead in Reg-Tech and relative sectors? How can professionals upskill themselves?
Legal professionals have to keep updated not only with the legislations but also with the digitized mechanism in harmony with the legislation. It cannot be denied that the regulation specific sectors have had been significantly updated with tech-based platforms in forms of AI tools. More so because of the nature of the varied segment any regulatory specific sector holds. It brings in huge doorway of opportunity to stay in Regulation specific sector, both absolutely working in it and remotely working with such sectors by being associated with AI based tools. In order to keep upskill for reg-tech sector, it is crucial to stay aware about the market and market players initially. Having said that, it shall be the practical aspect of understanding- example- contracts, competition, sectoral regulation, etc.
Audit seems to be easier for some people, but that’s not true right? What are the preparations necessary to have?
Audit is a powerful tool, which allows you to establish a baseline for your legal position and response. It comprises a broader range of operational issues, or at specific areas of the systems around financial organization in more details. Internal audit might, for example, look at payroll, financial controls, process or data senstivity, etc. It definitely provides an opportunity to identify and remove the element of surprise about legal exposure and legal issues, which have not been identified by the organization’s day-to-day work.
There is no straightjacket blueprint for the preparation; it encompasses you to have bandwidth of knowledge across legal functions. One should have a good hold of the sector they are in in order to identify risks which have otherwise not been clearly understood, or which have been masked through other controls.
What motivated you to take law as a career and how has been the decision so far?
This has a fairly clichéd answer. My mother was keen that I study law, so I started preparing for the various law school exams. However, right from then I’ve loved the subject and am glad for having taken up law. I enjoy how logical the subject is, and helping families and enabling businesses feels deeply rewarding.
What are your views on AI or legal tech adoption, what restrictions will it have in the coming years?
Adopting tech is extremely important. We should all adopt it as early as possible. Tech helps you do the same things more efficiently, saving time, effort and resources. This frees up the professionals to spend more time thinking of more innovative solutions. India still is a developing democracy with many fields of laws at a nascent stage. Lawyers should be able to spend more time in assisting the legal sector mature and bring it at par with international standards. I don’t see tech being able to replace that yet.
Ma’am, do you think any road-maps help in a career like law, or like many you trust that things can happen by the flow itself?
Man proposes, God disposes. Although roadmaps have their limitations, one should definitely have one. However, be flexible enough to change the roadmap as and when required, especially in a dynamic market like ours. However, advising on a roadmap is difficult, as each individual has their own story and the roadmap would be different for all.
According to you Shruti, as a law student, where should the focus be on, the hard work on academics or smart work on networking and building a great skill-set?
Both, but I feel more on academics. Networking is also important but if you want to be a good lawyer, you have to pay attention to the reading and academics. Smart work and building a great skill-set is a given and not contrary to putting in hard work on academics. They go hand in hand.
“Unconventional careers in law will spoil your degree”, why has this misconception led many people far away from the legal industry revolution and how to excel oneself to reach heights?
I don’t know of this misconception to exist really. I see more and more people taking up ‘unconventional’ careers in law. We now have lawyers getting into the business of law firm management, law firm branding, specialised HR for law firms, and the like. In fact, this is quite an underdeveloped space in India still.
We hardly have any specialized firms that lend support to law firms in industry research in complex litigation’s, financial fraud research, and the like, which is much more developed in the west. I think we need many more professionals taking up “unconventional careers in law”.
When we talk about disputes, most of the time obviously both the parties commit the same number of mistakes, and both suffer as well, before even going for conflict resolution, don’t you think there is some way out before that?
I don’t think it’s obvious that both parties make the same number of mistakes, though you are right, that there will often be a grey area. I do feel that most parties try to settle a matter out of Court prior to coming to lawyers and opting for the legal route. However, this is not because they opt for institutional mediation or ADR, but because they want to avoid the long delays and heavy expenses involved in coming to Court. Most people come to lawyers as a last resort, unless it’s a matter of ego.
We already have pre-litigation mediation as a mandatory requirement for commercial litigation, which has quite honestly, been a farce.
In fact I feel it should be quite the opposite. Our legal system should inspire confidence in the citizens that they will get timely relief and do not feel compelled to settle because of lack of confidence in the legal system.
We read that you are a graphologist, what is it all about, is it something related to astrology?
Graphology is the study of handwriting analysis. Astrology, at the cost of oversimplification, is the study of the impact the position of the planets at the time of our birth have on our lives. Graphology and Astrology are not directly related. I have always been interested in the occult sciences and have recently started studying Vedic Astrology also. I want to understand on what basis astrologers, who have gained quite a reputation for themselves as being charlatans, make the predictions that they do.
Talking about work-life balance, there has been ample amount of discussion on health issues as a lawyer, what do you believe are the best practices to maintain the equilibrium?
I feel it is fairly difficult to maintain work-life balance at a fresher level. That is a stage when you really do need to burn the midnight oil. However, after a few years, it is not difficult to maintain work-life balance. I feel the elements you need incorporate in your life to maintain the equilibrium are
(1) Exercise,
(2) Spending time on a hobby,
(3) Meeting friends, and
(4) practicing some form of spirituality, perhaps meditation. I have maintained that practicing grounding activities of some sort are important and goes a long way in improving mental health. Meditation, journaling, light exercises, sound sleep (even if for lesser hours) help tremendously in mental health, and can be practiced even when you don’t really have work life balance.
Few advice for our young law professionals?
It is important for you to enjoy what you do. The profession is a marathon, not a sprint. I cannot over-emphasize the importance of reading. Whenever you are studying a branch or aspect of law, make your own notes. It will help you in future. Try to maintain your own database of caselaws from the start. Most importantly, don’t burn out.
Is law something you were inclined to pursue, and why did you decided to pursue it?
Initially law was not my first preference – it was medicine. Some proclivity caused by watching television shows such as Boston Legal etc gave birth to my legal career when I enrolled at the Faculty of Law Jamia Millia Islamia in a 5 year LLB Programme. Without slightest hesitation, I can now confirm that I was meant to be a lawyer. In other words, patients got lucky!
During my first few years of legal studies and mock trial competitions, I felt a sense of proclivity and interest in law as I thoroughly enjoyed the subject/discipline. On one occasion, I won an award at a Bar Council of India event and Mr R Venkatramani invited me to his office for a brief conversation. Sir as kind he is, inspired and encouraged me to join litigation. I never looked back.
After my LL.M at McGill University, Canada, I was selected to pursue my second masters at University of Oxford – which further powered my quest to pursue litigation – and this time rights centric. The profession has been equally financially rewarding in terms of both needs and wants. Litigation as I know it provides me with opportunities to learn and grow every day, moment. Every court room provides me with a vicarious experience – unlike anything else.
What is your current role? Could you walk us through how a normal day looks like in your life?
I am blessed and equally thrilled to have multiple roles. From representing Govt as a Standing Counsel/Special Counsel to Law Enforcement agencies, I have a private practice where I am represent clients before various court of records across India and primarily at Delhi.
A normal day for me usually entails visiting at least 2-3 forums, which would ordinarily start (depending on cause list) with High Court then Trial Courts/NCLT etc. or Supreme Court. It is a challenge managing dates as we endeavour to get an effective hearing as much as practicable and possible. Most of cause list management is intuitive and cannot be managed without an efficient (which I am lucky to have).
This follows with conferences with clients, seniors, law office management and that too with utmost punctuality when possible! At last, we finish our work, leave some for the day to come. Research and case laws – preparation for the matters listed on the following day/week is most important of all and given priority on daily basis.
What worked well for you doing a MSC in criminology and how in the beginning it created an interest for you?
For me MSC Criminology and Criminal justice meant a second masters. Then, I had just finished my LLM in Comparative law from McGill University, Canada. It is undeniable that my proclivity in criminal law was polished at Oxford – inasmuch it enabled me to really think critically of the underlying issues concerning administration of criminal justice in India. It helped me get a holistic understanding of both the victim and the accused.
The society as a tertiary victim. The fact that my entire cohort was representative of people from across the world helped me gain insight into other territorial jurisdictions. Some were judges, lawyers, social activists etc. while others were academics. Therefore, it gave me an opportunity to reflect on the entire process and which comes in very handy on day to day basis.
As a faculty for Delhi Police and other authorities, where do you see the gap to be filled while maintaining a sort of balance between Police and Courts?
As a Faculty at Delhi Police and other institutions, the most obvious gap is – translating theory to practice in terms of procedural fairness to due process before Courts. The situation exacerbates owing to excessive pendency and work load on Investigating Officers – who have multifarious roles such as attending courts, investigation, attending emergency calls etc. Despite this, the institutional legitimacy of law enforcement agencies are often put in doubt perhaps because of one or two remote incidents. The narrative (negative ones) often spread like a wild fire thereby putting the entire executive in the dock.
This needs to be reflected upon and worked upon as an entire society at large. The law enforcement agencies deserve due credit for managing as diverse of a society as ours, day in and day out and most importantly constructive criticism – aimed towards helping them improve. Apart from this, there needs to be a better coordination inter se judiciary and executive.
I personally feel, the investigating officers should be allowed to join virtually where possible so as to enable them to work on their files/ investigation while waiting for their turn at various Courts and should only show up in person in cases especially called upon by the Courts. We would also benefit from joint training programmes and programmes designed to overcome hierarchical gaps between the law enforcement agencies and that of the trial judiciary – who manages the major bit of fair trail rights of the accused and that of the victims.
How far do you consider the role of publications in a legal professional’s life?
The role of publications and academic discourse as a legal professional is one of the most important duties bestowed upon us. This is indispensable for two reasons,
(1) Our duty to disseminate what we learn on day to day basis
(2) Enable young counsels / new ones to learn from our vicarious experiences as much as possible. Publications or academic discourse is one of the most important platform for a legal debate and to discuss socio-legal issues. Through publications, we are provided with a platform that enables us in identifying situations of conflict of laws, pre-empt situations surrounding conflict of laws and allow suggestions for improvement.
Personally speaking, I have regularly published both scholarly work and have a book coming up on criminology. I personally feel that an academic heart is sine qua non for any legal practitioner be it this side or the other side of the bench.
Being able to accomplish so much in such a short period of time, what challenges did you face?
Well I don’t know if I have accomplished anything as of now. Accomplishment is a myth in our legal profession. The idea is to continue to thrive to learn in this knowledge based economy as I label it. The beauty of our profession is networking and making new friends so often than not. I am often astonished by unique approaches of our interns and young associates. The legal fraternity is changing for good.
What message/advice would you like to give to the upcoming generation of law and young people in general?
The message I would give to the upcoming generation is simple yet straight forward –
Focus on mental health. Stay away from unhealthy social media. Study in a multidisciplinary manner. Stay updated with global affairs and spend time with your loved ones in a quality way. Learn to separate personal and professional time –
This will enable you to procrastinate less. Best wishes to them all!
What was your motivation behind choosing law as a career?
I decided to take up law as a career after my 10th boards. After interning with a fashion designer and at a couple of NGO’s and speaking to people who were working in various other fields, taking up law was a clear decision for me because I had decided that I wanted to help people by finding solutions to their legal problems. I wanted to contribute to society in a way I thought would be more effective.
I have always had a passion for writing and I have always had strong opinions and so choosing law as a career was a means to work towards achieving everything I was setting out to do including the person I wanted to become.
What were the challenges that you faced in the beginning of your career?
Like every other first generation lawyer, I felt I had been thrown into the deep end of the ocean at the beginning of my career. Although, one learns to read the law and apply oneself in different scenarios in a classroom setup, when you join practice, you are immediately transformed into a professional and are expected to apply your skills and assist your seniors with all aspects of a transaction, whether it is research, contract reviewing and drafting or speaking to clients and managing them.
The first year of practice can be a daunting experience for most lawyers, however, the initial years will also set the course for what is to come so I believe that hard work, passion, determination and the ability to push oneself and grow through the discomfort are key to ensuring a successful and meaningful career.
You started out as an intellectual property lawyer and then moved to corporate law. Can you tell us more about your role as an IP lawyer and how is it different from being a corporate lawyer?
My role as an IP lawyer involved advising clients across the globe on trademark and copyright-related laws in India. I handled IP portfolios of some of the leading FMCG companies in the world and handled all aspects of trade mark and copyright prosecution. My work involved conducting clearance searches, drafting replies to examination report, strategic development and management of trade mark and copyright portfolios and appearing before the trademarks registry. I switched to corporate law after almost two years in IP.
As a corporate lawyer I handle all aspects of general corporate advisory, commercial contracting, employment law advisory and contracting and investment transactions. I also regularly advise cloud communication companies on regulatory, policy and compliance’s issues. I believe my unique experience of intellectual property law and corporate law has helped me understand the legal requirements of a company when it comes to its business model in a holistic manner.
As someone who is passionate about writing on various topics, how important do you think legal writing is and what are the skills that one needs to have in order?
I have always had a flair for writing essays, poetry and screenplays throughout my school days. As lawyers, we are essentially thinkers and writers. As a young girl, I found that the best way for me to express my feelings was through writing. In law school, I had the opportunity to hone my writing skills and move up to writing articles on various legal topics that were of my interest. Research and writing was a way for me to delve deeper into subjects that interested me and to stay abreast with the latest developments in the legal field.
I had found the way for me, as a lawyer, to express my thoughts and opinions and this helped me find my confidence professionally.
According to you, briefly what is the right approach to drafting tech contracts and other critical documents?
As a lawyer working in the telecommunications and technology space, we have to learn and adapt to changing technologies and bridge the gap between legal and tech to provide solutions to our clients and help them mitigate their business risks.
From a contract drafting perspective, it is important to firstly understand the clients product and services and to ensure the clients compliance with the legal and regulatory framework surrounding its business model. It is important to have a strong understanding of the Information Technology Act, 2000 and rules including the data protections laws.
Having a strong grasp on the industry specific regulations is also a must. For example, for clients in the digital communications space, it is crucial to understand the implications of TRAI regulations such as the Telecom Commercial Communication Customer Preference Regulation (TCCCPR), 2018 on their business. It is important to incorporate appropriate clauses in the clients customer/user agreements to help mitigate any risks due to non-compliance with the such regulations. Having a good understanding of the clients licensing framework and business model is also necessary when advising in this space.
With content writing they say your drafting improves a lot, if you agree, would you suggest only writing on legal topics or any other niche as well?
I feel that one should write only if they are passionate about it. What started out as a personal outlet became a professional skill for me. That being said, being able to express your thoughts in a clear and concise manner is a skill which ultimately helps in professional pursuits in this industry.
As technology related startups including legal technology are evolving at a rapid pace, how must lawyers and law firms prepare themselves for doing different types of legal work?
This is an interesting time to be a lawyer and through our work at Cornellia Chambers we hope to disrupt the legal services industry through innovation under the guidance of our founder and mentor Ms. Pritika Kumar. Ever since the pandemic and offices becoming virtual and with the evolution of technology, everything and everyone has moved to the cloud and traditional law firms and systems are being challenged every day.
Such innovation in the industry will not only help organizations and the community of lawyers to become more efficient but will also help in improving the issue of lack of access to justice in our country through technological means.
Any few important tips for young law professionals?
Always be eager to learn, diligent and passionate about your work and never be afraid to fail.
What was the main reason you chose law as a career?
Law was always an inspiring and challenging field for me. Given that I’m not coming from a family with legal background, hence I had no perception of the legal world and profession, my desire to study law derived from my pure curiosity to comprehend the world I belong to.
From a very early age, I was enchanted by the fact that societies and modern civilization are an artefact of law. Dictums that give concrete form to the greatest achievement of the mankind, civilization. A higher power that dictates, yet connects the word, rooted on common consensus.
What intrigued me more was that law is interwoven in our daily lives, molds our characters, perspectives, mentality and ultimately our being in a very subtle manner, without us even realizing it.
With two of my favourite books being “The Social Contract” (Rousseau) and “The Prince” (Machiavelli), I decided that I wanted to dive in what was the “connective tissue” of our social fabric, law. To explore how this dynamic arrangement moves, interacts and shapes.
Which are the forces affecting it, on which forces has an impact, its pulse during times of crisis. To my eye, law was a living, man-made algorithm, catching social needs, movements, shifts and being formed accordingly, to serve society. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not.
How has been the journey so far for you, what are the challenges and also that one breakthrough you’ll always remember?
Being a lawyer nowadays is a challenging yet intriguing task. From the very competitive and demanding legal environment that requires continuous efforts to the crisis that humanity goes through during the last years, be it the healthcare crisis, energy crisis, political and cross-border turmoil, lawyering feels like juggling.
Juggling among demanding clients, competitive colleagues, ongoing legislative reforms and amendments, of which you have to keep abreast, tight work schedules, long hours and a work-life balance that is difficult to maintain.
Nonetheless, in my opinion the major challenge is that the lawyer must act as a pivotal node. The pivotal node between the client’s needs and the legislative framework, assigned with the difficult task of harmonizing and bringing client’s demands in alignment with the law.
The crucial pitfall lurking in this venture is that a lawyer may be swept along by his/her plain legal background and come with rigid, obsolete positions, that don’t serve neither the client nor the scope of the law.
A lawyer shall implement a holistic, multidisciplinary approach. We all hear about the importance of expertise as a key-element to the provision of top-notch legal services, but what we don’t hear, is the “mutilating” effect that expertise may have to a lawyer’s mind and methods.
Apart from the in-depth knowledge of the relevant practice area, a lawyer shall have a strong business acumen and a genuine understanding of the other aspects of the case, with the economic one being the most prominent.
This is the most challenging part of our job. To study and be aware of every single molecule of the tree, without losing sight of the forest.
The truth is that I don’t have a cliché breakthrough to provide, like a victorious win on a very thorny court case or a client’s moving words that thrilled me and made me reconsider an issue. The breakthrough for me that marks a turning point in my career was a resounding realization I had, some years after joining the industry.
As a matter of fact, many lawyers are struggling with “imposter syndrome”, feeling inadequate and being overwhelmed by the hallucination that their colleagues/partners/clients know more and know better. Obviously, this is a very restraining belief.
Changing my viewpoint on that, made me redefine the way I was practicing law, unlocked me and freed me from limiting behavioral patterns. I like to put it as the Greek philosopher Socrates put it on his trial “I know that I know nothing”.
I would dare to say that this saying could not describe better the very tenor of the legal profession. Law is an indefinite piece of information, and it is impossible to be acquired. At the same time, practicing law requires a set of various skills, extending from expertise and in-depth knowledge to negotiation and soft skills, which are not feasible to be mastered at once. Lawyering is a perpetual journey towards personal growth.
By the time I reconciled with this fact, I gained the confidence and assurance that through hard work, study and perseverance, everything could be achieved. I started experiencing, once stressful situations with joy, vivid curiosity, and a feeling of certainty that I could successfully deliver the tasks assigned. I began facing adversities with chutzpah!
This new mentality was reflected in the quality of services I provided and helped me evolve and improve as a professional. By incorporating Socrates’ motto into my daily life, I took the extra leap and performed relieved by such burdens. It was liberating.
Katia, how do you see this E-Lawyering the legal industry, what particular steps you’ll suggest to people?
Covid-19 pandemic and its dire repercussions on a global scale revealed the need for modernization and digitalization on the legal sector. Markedly, law firms are obsolete entities, still stuck on outdated procedures and not being equipped with the appropriate mechanisms to keep track with the demands of an ever-changing global environment. The pandemic served as a wake-up call to the legal industry and summoned professionals of the sector to adjust to the new reality by adopting new methods and technologies.
E-Lawyering is futureproof. While the notion is encountered in the global literature for years now, it is the last couple of years during which we notice the word trending in articles and over the internet.
The greatest challenge – inherent in all pioneering ventures – is that people are not familiarized and they need time to learn and trust the new type of services. And the difficulty is even higher given that we talk about the lawyer – client relationship. A relationship fundamentally rooted in trust and reliability. Distancing from the old-fashioned “brick-and-mortar” law firm and the face-to-face appointments, the lawyer has to intensively work to eliminate the client’s reasonable fear of being scammed.
The good news is that information technology, when used wisely, can wipe out distrust, suspicion and distance. Nowadays, a lawyer possesses significant digital means in his/her toolkit. A toolkit that is underpinned by the fact that technological illiteracy has been almost eradicated. The modern clients seeking legal services are familiar with the use of technology, while a big bunch of them are tech-savvy people.
Moreover, there are advantages inextricably intertwined with e-Lawyering and the virtual legal practice in general. A virtual law firm has low overheads, thus being able to decrease the cost for the end – client, who can enjoy professional legal services at a lower expense. Furthermore, one of the key elements of e-Lawyering is decentralization. By embodying a decentralized business structure, a virtual law firm can cover greater territories, without having to be confined in one city or area.
The steps that I would suggest to professionals in the legal sector that wish to pursue e-Lawyering are:
Build a user-friendly and highly accessible platform / portal to help prospective clients reach you;
Showcase your expertise and practice areas with preciseness. Communicate the scope of your services with clarity. The notion of e-Lawyering and virtual law firm is already something fresh and new. You don’t want your prospective clients to be further frustrated;
Use a reliable law firm management software that will help your team sync and keep track of the cases’ progress. Communication among team members is pivotal;
In case you wish to go the extra mile, incorporate cloud-based legal technologies that will enhance the quality of your legal services;
Establish communication methods that can create a closer relationship with the client. You don’t want your client to consider your services impersonal. Human interaction is very important, in particular when we have to do with important legal cases;
Remember: It takes time for your work to strike a chord with the clients.
For the client who wavers whether he/she should proceed with e-Lawyering services or services provided by an old-school law firm, I suggest that he/she should go for the option that better fits his/her legal needs and personality. While virtual legal services do not fall short of the traditional ones, the client shall take all the precautions and implement due diligence to verify the reliability and trustworthiness of his/her e-Lawyers.
As someone experienced in Banking laws, what are the improvements that you suggest?
Well, the scope of banking law is very broad, from capital requirements and buffers as stipulated under the Basel regime to securitization, crypto-assets and fintech companies. There are multiple aspects where improvements may be suggested, but what presents particular interest is FinTech regulatory framework.
FinTech is, in and of itself, a thorny area, like every subject matter involving tech regulations. The exponential growth of FinTech companies during the last years has been a real challenge for EU regulators, who lag behind the evolutionary technologies. The difficulty increases further due to the multi-pronged legal aspects surrounding FinTech: data protection, cybersecurity, consumer protection, competition and financial requirements are only an indicative example. For the time being, FinTech firms are small. Although, they can rapidly scale up expanding their businesses in riskier clients or niches.
The fragmentation of the EU regulatory framework makes the landscape even more labyrinthine, while the current legislation lacks special provisions. A single legal framework designed to tackle the perils and hedge the risks entrenched in the FinTech industry would solve the ambiguity and uncertainty prevailing in the area.
Of course, such work requires the in-depth knowledge and understanding of FinTech entities by the regulators. An EU Regulatory Sandbox, albeit far-fetched, would provide enough wiggle room for controlled regulatory experimentation. The usefulness and benefits of a regulatory sandbox have been already reported by EU member states that have established and operate sandboxes. What’s more, EU regulatory bodies may introduce an ex ante regulatory system, where applicable, in order to prevent the risks embedded in the operation of FinTech firms.
What are the negative effects of tech-startups that you’ve come across lately, and how far have you been successful in tackling them?
Tech start-ups are a hot topic during the last years and regularly adorn article’s headlines. Their negative effects have been extensively reported ranging from data leak, hacking, lock-in effects and other vulnerabilities.
Nonetheless, I would like to focus on the challenges that a start-up lawyer encounters. One of the core problems with start-ups is that, while the idea or the product/service may worth, they lack structure and often present administrative problems.
A lawyer’s challenge is to sense the very nuances of their work and help the company build from scratch, methodically and step-by-step their identity and strategy, adopt internal policies which conform with the legislation in force, while at the same time, portray the firm’s core beliefs. Tackling these problems requires ongoing legal support, steadfast guidance and bespoke solutions that fit the company’s needs.
Moreover, tech start-ups demonstrate a higher degree of difficulty entailing from the specific nature of the service or the product they offer. The lawyer has to deeply comprehend the scope and the functionality of the services/product, so as to suggest the appropriate technical and organizational measures that shall be taken by the company to ensure full compliance.
Furthermore, data breaches and cyberattacks plague tech startups, which are confronted with the possibility to found themselves in the crosshairs of regulatory bodies, due to vulnerable or insufficient technical and organizational measures. The start-up ecosystem is prone to data leak and cyberattacks for several reasons, with the lack of the necessary resources and a constrained budget being one of them. In particular, tech start-ups either have to compromise cyber-security in the shrine of financial budgeting or demonstrate a negligible stance towards security measures, as a corollary of the growth mentality that characterizes them. In any case, it is the lawyer’s job to punctuate and clarify the importance of security measures to thwart data breaches and hacking incidents.
Do you think smart work takes over people who are engaged in doing only hard work in this industry?
During the last years, we hear more and more about how smart work outweighs hard work. Markedly, there is a shift from the old-school “hard work mentality” that had been deified throughout the years, being ascribed the role of the quintessence of success, towards a “smart work” one. And to a large extent, this shift may be attributed to the overnight success stories circulating on the media.
From my point of view, smart work and hard work are the two sides of the same coin. It is only through hard work that a person can identify and adopt a motus operandi incorporating efficiency and effectiveness. Smart work requires in-depth knowledge and a holistic approach that can only be acquired through long hours, devotion and unwavering focus. There is not a shortcut.
Besides, may the seed of analytical reasoning skills and a strong acumen exist in a person, but it shall be watered in order to bloom and exercised in order for the person to deliver tangible results. Smart work goes hand in hand with hard work.
Startups are leading like never before and so as LegalTech, how do you think LegalTech can create opportunities for lawyers?
We are navigating an era of digitalization and information technology that demands speed, resilience and flexibility. Sectors that cannot pace with this evolution are foredoomed to fail. Legal Tech emerges from the imperative need the legal sector to be revitalized. Admittedly, the vast majority of law firms around the world follow rigid and conservative methods and are usually reluctant or hesitant to adopt a new modus operandi.
Legal Tech is not just a vehicle or a supplementary tool, that helps lawyers to trace new opportunities. Legal Tech is a necessity. We are going through a shift in the tectonic plates of the legal environment, a shift that dictates the radical modernization of the legal profession. The old certitudes of the legal world will crumble sooner or later, and lawyers will have to adapt to the new conditions.
Some innovative law firms have already embraced Legal Tech and made it a part of their practice. It’s a matter of time Legal Tech to gain universal momentum and, as the theory of diffusion of the innovation suggests, lawyers will espouse the new practice and integrate it in their professional life.
Some of the perks that come with Legal Tech are automations. Lawyers will reap the fruits of automating administrative work, that can be proved tiresome and time-consuming, funneling their bandwidth into more productive and creative tasks.
In addition, data analysis softwares offer to lawyers the opportunity to map out their marketing strategy with precision, target specific group of clients and boost profitability.
Speaking of profitability, Legal Tech increases economies of scale, letting lawyers provide legal services more efficiently. This way, costs can be decreased, and earnings increased.
In closing, to make the advantages of Legal Tech more concrete, just picture documents piling on a desk. Now envisage a clean desk, empty of documents, tidy, with a computer or laptop on it. How stress relieving is that?
Lastly, some few advices for our young lawyers!
Stop sabotaging yourself and start taking risks!
You are not perfect, you will never be. Accept that and start working on improving yourself. Improve yourself not only by studying law and performing exquisitely in legal cases. Yes, your profession is a very important part of your life. But it is not the only one. The aspects of our life are like communicating vessels. Practice your skills in one aspect and you’ll see the gains sprawling over the others.
And by gains, I mean the traits, the mentality, the perceptions, the way of thinking you earn by devoting your time and focus on a particular thing.
By diversifying the aspects on which you are working, you are growing a more diversified skillset. And a multifaceted skillset means a multidimensional approach on legal matters.
Do not settle. Believe in something wholeheartedly and focus on accomplishing it. Set goals and look at them with an unwavering gaze. As Nelson Mandela said “It always seems impossible, until it is done”. Believe in you!
Tell us what inclined you to pursue law as a profession?
Well there is no inspiring story here unfortunately. I did choose science as my study stream for my plus two boards, but that was because my parents initially wanted me to become a doctor. Law happened pretty accidentally actually! It was more like law chose me. My uncle, who is a lawyer at the Calcutta High Court, told me at that time of the emergence of the national law schools across the country and the bright, young graduates these institutions were producing and suggested I should try taking the exams for these law schools.
I only took the exam for WBNUJS, Kolkata (ours was the last batch who took individual law school exams instead of the CLAT) after preparing for about a month. The results came out about two weeks before the boards and I was very happy to find that I had gotten through. I decided that this was what I was going to pursue and make a career out of. And that is how it happened.
Do you have any mentors so far that helped you so far in this journey, and how far do you consider the role of mentors crucial in the industry?
Yes of course. You cannot grow as a professional in the legal industry (or for that matter any industry) without the help of your mentors. A good mentor will teach you so much especially as a litigating lawyer – the art of a good draft, how much to say and what not to say in Court, how to strategize a matter etc. Whatever little I am today I am because of some excellent mentors I have had in the industry.
Why does Corporate law attract so much attention? What makes it so unique?
Well it would be easy to say that it attracts the attention of young graduates because of the money on offer, but that would be a shallow perspective. If you do not like and enjoy what you do on a daily basis, you will not stick around or grow, no matter the money on offer. This is why you see attrition rates are so high in the bigger law firms. However, if you like what you do, then the sky is the limit. Speaking personally, as a Disputes lawyer, I love the challenges of my job day in and day out.
I have to keep our clients happy and they must feel comfortable to repose their trust in their high stakes, valuable matters in me. I have to advise them correctly, guide them down the right path, put every ounce of research and knowledge into these matters so that their chances of success are enhanced and they know that they are in safe hands – it is a challenge I am up for every day of the week.
How do you manage your time schedule on a daily basis and what drives you to be consistent?
I would not lie, law firm life can be pretty demanding – whether you are an A-1 level associate or a partner, every day brings its own challenges which consume most of your time. I have varied interests apart from law – I love reading fiction, watching sports especially football, spending time with my family and my dog. While most of my time is taken up by my work, I ensure that at the end of the day (no matter how late it is) I am taking an hour or two out to do these things I love – read a bit, maybe watch a film or a game of football, take the dog out for a walk, maybe go for a run or a long drive sometimes. It rejuvenates me and helps me face the next day with the same enthusiasm again.
What differences have you noticed in international arbitration and national arbitration, I mean what’s more challenging amongst both?
Both bring their own challenges to be honest. In an international arbitration, you are bound by the procedure of the institution under whose aegis the arbitration is happening – SIAC, ICC, LCIA etc. and the procedure is much more streamlined as opposed to domestic ad hoc arbitrations.
Also, in international arbitration’s you often have to work in close collaboration with foreign lawyers or law firms, and therefore seamless execution of the work can be a challenge as well as a learning experience at the same time. On the other hand, in domestic arbitration, especially ad hoc ones, arbitrators adopt their own procedures and therefore the same may be different from one arbitration to another, and you are constantly adapting as a lawyer to make the best case for your client.
However, arbitration in India has been developing at a fast rate, and amendments to the statute in 2015 and 2019 have ensured shortening of timelines and streamlining of overall procedure, and I believe the future of arbitration in India is very bright.
Do you believe that AI will lead to data breach and violation of privacy, if yes, how can it be mitigated?
I am not a data privacy lawyer and therefore I am ill-equipped to answer this question. My opinions on AI and data breach are based on what I have read in popular media, and I do not want to adopt a conspiratorial tone for your readers without in-depth familiarity with the issue myself.
Few tips for our readers that helped you as well in this journey?
First of all, you must decide what you want to do. Law firms are not be all and end all for a law graduate – there are a lot of career choices you can adopt – you can be a corporate lawyer, a litigating lawyer, an independent practitioner, an academic or venture into public policy.
Do not follow the herd- look into your heart and see what you really want. As I said before, if you are not finding what you are doing everyday exciting or challenging, there is no point doing it. Also, no matter which path you choose, there is only one mantra of success for all of them – read.
You have to read constantly as a lawyer, you have to keep updating yourself. Law evolves constantly, you can never be a good lawyer if you are not evolving with the law as well. That would be my two pennies for your readers.
The opinions and views expressed are that of the author and Optum, United Health Group bears no responsibility whatsoever. The thoughts shared are for general informational purposes and should not be construed as any official advisory.
Why did you choose law as a career, was it planned or all of a sudden you decided to be a lawyer?
I was a science student, who was coaching herself to be a doctor honestly, so I didn’t really know if law was something I would want to pursue.
It was definitely not a planned decision to begin with. It was at the middle of my 12th grade, when my fellow students started discussing about courtroom dramas and how they are being inclined towards pursuing law, I started reading and exploring the opportunities in legal field.
On a lighter note, it wouldn’t be wrong to even admit that I became attracted to courtroom dramas and the more glamorized view of law.
I started to then consider more seriously what I wanted the most in my career and think I wanted professional stability and financial security. I was also keen to follow a career path that allows me to leverage my communication skills and offers an avenue for continious learning and keeping myself updated with the latest in a field.
At the time it felt that the law provides both, so I imagined it would be an ideal career for me.
Then the more I read about it, I started to understand that being such a fascinating field it would offer nuanced challenges to resolve while demanding a variety of skills and this piqued my interest in the field law.
What were the challenges that you faced in the beginning of your career?
Learning about law in classrooms compared to real life application in time bound scenarios was the first challenge that I faced.
There were many days that I had to go back to refer to my internship days or leverage experience of my batch mates/seniors to draft an appropriate clause or provide the most effective advice. Initial days required a lot more hours being spent making the transition from academics to a law associate all the more challenging.
Apart from this, settling in a big city like Bombay was also a real challenge. Coming from a small town and then being in law schools’ protected environment, it was only now that I had to “go figure” for everything from renting a house, setting it up, making transport arrangements, at the same time putting the extra work in the first few months of your career. The trouble is, no one teaches you this part!
Mugdha, do you think that for a first-generation lawyer, the journey becomes a little difficult? Please explain the same wrt to your own experience.
Stepping into law school was a new world, where people who had families with multiple generations of lawyers talked fluently about topics I was making hard efforts to understand myself and that made me feel I had more catching up to do. I had to assess all opportunities independently with my own lens and learn concepts from scratch that some had been exposed to from childhood.
Looking back I feel now that the extra effort I had put in also created the appreciation that I hold for the field of law.
Being able to build an experience in M & A and VC deals, what according to you are the most important skills to have?
Within my limited experience of M&A and VC deals, I believe one of the most important skill is to see the bigger picture. You need to be able to get your head out of the documents to see that you are working the whole process from scratch to end and therefore must be able to build your opinion on the end goal and the manner in which you’d assist your client to achieve it.
This requires strong business awareness and equally strong legal and commercial understanding of the transaction.This in no sense should take away from the importance of paying attention to detail as the devil is always in those details!
Apart from this I believe, building a good relationship with both your client and also opposing counsels, help you navigate the negotiations better and sometimes even builds your own power of persuasion. While this may not be practical all the time, trying never hurts.
As someone who got a chance to work with big companies, was it a smooth sail for you?
I don’t think it was all rosy by any means. It did take some time and effort and a lot of of unlearning for ultimately learning some more. I worked towards moving from a law firm mindset and started to imbibe an in-house midset.
The in-house mindset I speak of is much more closer to business, stakeholder requirements and is also customer driven. In the beginning one of the challenges that I personally faced was balancing expectations as an in-house counsel, keeping the business needs ahead of the legal structures and nuances, yet being within the scope of law.
I’d say, I am still a work in progress.
India is witnessing amazing growth because of the startups, according to you Mugdha, what are the roles and responsibilities of a lawyer in dealing with start-ups?
In my opinion, you need to be more of a generalist in the real sense of the word. As a startup lawyer you must know a bit of everything as you advise startups throughout their lifecycle on a variety of issues, while all along living the risks and uncertainties associated with startups. This begins with setting up of their venture and related legal & regulatory compliance, which then moves to routine advisory for general corporate or commercial transactions undertaken on a regular basis.
The role of the startup lawyer doesn’t end here as now they will also assist the startups for raising capital from angels and VCs and help the startups sail through legal and business issues arising as it scales and grows its businesses.
Finally, also taking the full circle and reaching the finishing line is the most toughest, but perhaps also one of the more satisfying tasks of a startup lawyer who has seen the emergence and growth of the startup and is now able to help them sell the business or take the company public in an IPO.
Creating a work-life balance and focusing on mental health has been a challenge lately in this industry, but you manage it well, please tell our audience how?
I think I am far from managing it well, but I am now at a place where I constantly aim to strike that balance between work and personal life and try and give time to a lot of my dreams beyond just the law and my professional commitments. I now understand when to pause and enjoy life and when to get back to the rigorous work routine.
I am comfortable assessing how much work is too much work and to take a step back (including mentally), when needed.
I enjoy creating content when I get some time while I am travelling or just some happy stuff on Instagram. I unapologetically think that it is okay and so I am active on social media because I enjoy it.
While I understand, to some social media is trivial or toxic and to an extent it maybe is, but I think it is also a great tool to voice your opinion, teach, learn or for just any form of expression and I believe a part of my ‘work-life balance’ comes from being able to show who I am or where my heads at by simply expressing it. It is a very personal view though and to each their own!
For this I believe one sincerely has to put in efforts to create this space and the right kind of work place often accelerates that effort.
Apart from expression on social media platform, I love experimenting with food, both to cook and eat. I travel across continents just to experience the culture and I believe a part of that culture is their food. Once am back, for weeks I try to recreate food that I eat on my escapades and I enjoy reliving my travel stories through this.
I love to travel as it adds perspective to life and keeps me grounded too knowing that theres a huge World out there with variety of people and culture and we, as an individual, are such a small part of this whole story and there is so much to learn and know.
They say nowadays a lawyer must have that business acumen, do you believe this as well? If yes, briefly describe our audience about it.
Yes, definitely. The journey becomes smoother once you are able to amalgamate your legal knowledge with business acumen and are able to communicate effectively and efficiently with your stakeholders.
A lot of decision making is done by weighing and analyzing differentiated opinions and often conflicting priorities, that may even sometime require you to say “No”. As in-house counsel, one should learn to strike that balance.
In the rapidly growing and dynamic world, it becomes important to anticipate and understand how various factors such as geopolotical scenarios, changing landscapes of policies and increased focus on risk mitigation will impact both businesses and laws.
Lastly, few tips for our young law professionals?
For the young law professionals I have just a few tips from my own experiences and that is ;
‘Use this time to understand where you want to be in next 10 and 20 years of your career and start making those career choices early on, if possible’
These are the days of maximum learning but also maximum hardwork so put in that extra effort and it will take you a long way.
Having said that, don’t lose the sense of self and try and understand your own boundaries, that can help you create space for self-awareness and mental stability.
