Category: Founder

This interview has been published by Namrata Singh and The SuperLawyer Team

Hello and welcome to another episode of Super Lawyer. Today, we have with us esteemed advocate Vishal Khattar, who is the founder of Patine Law Offices in New Delhi. He is also the Additional Advocate General for the State of Haryana at the Supreme Court of India. Welcome, sir, to our episode. Thank you for accepting our invitation and for being here.

Let’s start our journey of questions and answers in a more conversational manner. Sir, I would like to begin with a very basic question. When you decided to become a lawyer, how was that journey? What kind of challenges did you encounter when you started focusing on this career for yourself?

Just a small correction: the office goes by the name of Patine Law Offices. Now, I understand it’s a unique name. I attended a school where the alumni are called Patines, so out of dedication and affection for my school, I decided to name the office after it.

I’ve been a debater throughout my time in school and college, participating in several debates and declamation competitions. I earned some good distinctions and ranks in those competitions. As a result, one day, my principal—Mr. BBS Pathania, a great man—told me, “You will become a good lawyer.” However, being from a small town, the challenge was that I scored high marks in my matriculation exams, and since I was among the top students in the state at that time, my father’s expectations shifted. He wanted me to become a doctor.

I was a medical student in school, but despite my best efforts, I couldn’t make it to medical college. There were three colleges in my city, Rohtak: one for B. Pharmacy, one for MBA, and one for law. To avoid wasting a year, I applied to all three. When I didn’t get into medical college, I was accepted into all three of these institutions. Initially, I planned to pursue an MBA, but after discussing it with my principal, who advised me to go to law school, I decided to study law. He assured me that I wouldn’t regret the decision, and I believe he was absolutely right.

So, I chose to study law because I had an interest in it from the beginning, and it turned out well. I completed my five-year law degree at Maharshi Dayanand University in Rohtak. From my third year, I started interning in Delhi, and since then, I’ve been working here.

Sir, it definitely worked out for you. It seems the path was paved by your faculty, but you’ve made a huge name for yourself.

I was fortunate to be taught and guided by such learned teachers, my professors, and lecturers. I frequently visit my college to mentor students. They often ask, “Vishal, why don’t you come here more often?” I jokingly reply, “It’s because of all the extra blessings you’ve given me that I’m so busy. If you reduce your blessings, I’ll start coming more often.”

I did my final-year internship with a very good organization—sometimes called the most preferred employer in the world—General Electric (GE). They have a finance division here called GE Countrywide, and after my internship, they offered me a job. At that time, it was quite rare for my college to receive such offers, so it was a big deal.

In fact, it was the first campus placement offer received by our department. I joined GE as a legal analyst, though it was a contractual position. During one of the court proceedings, I was noticed by a professional who referred me to ICICI Bank. Early in my career, I joined ICICI Bank as the State Head Legal for Punjab and Chandigarh.

I gained experience with corporates, working at ICICI Bank and later with Tata Capital, where I was responsible for their North India legal operations. However, I never intended to pursue a lifelong career in the corporate sector, so I eventually decided to return to practice.

Sir, with such a trajectory in your career, when did you decide to start Patine Law Offices? What was the inspiration behind its establishment? What exactly sets it apart from others in the legal landscape? Additionally, if possible, we would request you to share some of the challenges and successes you’ve encountered.

See, If I talk about motivation, it always comes when there is a loophole in the system that you want to fill or a need in the industry. In the legal fraternity, we don’t use words like ‘market’ or ‘industry,’ but obviously, the driving and limiting factors are the same. However, I always believe in focusing on the positive aspects. There were good things happening, and we were part of those good things. So, we wanted to start something good on our own. It’s time that we should get independent. I should get independent.

So, we decided to start Patine Law Offices. The name ‘Patine’ and the email ID for Patine Law Offices were things I had already created during my final year. It was clear in my mind that every lawyer wants to be independent. We were just waiting for the right time, when we had some clients who could entrust us with work.

We started Patine Law Offices with a small 300 square foot office. Slowly, we have been able to serve clients from both corporate and non-corporate. We have a reasonable number of practice cases from non-corporate clients, as well as from corporates. In the corporate sector, we are involved in finance, banking, Fintech, and then also in the automobile industry. We have some e-commerce clients, and now we’ve started working in FMCG as well. Being a first-generation lawyer, I had to hustle for every client and for every bit of learning.

About six months ago, we started some operations in the UAE as well. We’re working for two clients in Dubai—one is a Fintech client, and the other is in renewable energy. So, we’ve started working for them as well. Every benchmark we’ve reached has been a story of hustle for us.

But I believe every first-generation lawyer has to go through that. You have to keep learning, reading, and seeking references every time. You’ll face rejections because clients tend to go for big names. This is a trend in our industry.

It’s like when you want to go for a bypass surgery, you’ll always ask who’s the best doctor. No one asks for a doctor who’s available; they want the best. The same principle applies to some extent in our profession—clients want big lawyers. But you have to find those who can trust you.

We were fortunate to find some clients who trusted us. Some corporate officers who had worked with me at that time knew how I performed, and somehow, things worked out.

So, sir, given this fact, you are holding currently, a very esteemed office of being an Additional Advocate General for the state of Haryana, at the Supreme Court of India, which in itself is one of the very prestigious things.

We would request you to shed some light on this particular role and the insights related to the responsibilities and how do you face the challenges, what kind of things do you do over there because that also will become an aspiration for learners as well.

For a litigation lawyer, it’s a very important milestone to have the opportunity at some point in their career to work for a public undertaking or the government.

When we talk about government panels or government cases, the documents, orders, laws, working methods, protocols, and hierarchy—these are things you can only learn when you start working for them. Like any other litigation lawyer, I was also looking for such opportunities.

So, when this position was advertised, I applied for it. I was fortunate enough to be appointed as one of the nine Additional Advocates General (AGs) for Haryana. My role involves handling cases in the Supreme Court.

So in these cases, in government work, there is a well-organized structure. Duties are well-defined, protocols are clear, and there is a very detailed bureaucratic structure. The protocols, documents, and their implementation are all clearly laid out. This makes it a great learning experience for any litigation lawyer working on a panel. Every case comes with its own challenges.

Sometimes, students or juniors who are close to us ask very genuine questions. They often ask, ‘What is the main challenge? How long will it take for me to become a good lawyer? How long will it take to become an independent lawyer?’ I remember something I learned from a senior at the Delhi High Court.

When I used to sit in the canteen, feeling worried, he would come up to me. Once, I remember discussing my concerns with him. He asked me, ‘What happened? You look very upset. What’s on your mind?’ It was 5:30 p.m. at the Delhi High Court. I told him, ‘I’ve been working so hard for two years, and though I’m earning, it’s not what I hear from seniors—about getting many cases, high fees, and having a good office.

He told me, ‘Look, our legal profession is not like an aircraft; it’s like a train. In a train, you have to stay on track. There’s no provision for overtaking. If you try to overtake, you’ll have an accident. There’s no going faster than your schedule, because if you do, you risk an accident. And if you slow down, someone will hit you from behind. All you can do is stay on time and keep moving. This is how a train operates, and this is how our profession works too.

Every day, you need to start at the same time, reach the courts on time, meet your clients properly, meet your deadlines, and do your research timely. If there’s a new law coming in, give extra time to study it. You need to keep improving. If you follow this schedule, just like a train, that’s how you’ll succeed in this profession.

And believe me,’ he said, ‘believe me, Khattar, every station will come. If you stay on track, you’ll reach every station.’ From this, I understood that perseverance is essential in this profession. You need to be consistent, regular, sincere, and disciplined. Whatever benchmarks are set for any professional lawyer, you will achieve them.

 You know, my first mentor in Delhi was a Special Public Prosecutor. He used to speak to me in Punjabi and would say, ‘Khattar, you should know how to work, and then you should get work too. So these are the raw standard things we have learned from our seniors.

Absolutely beautiful standards and tried-and-tested tracks. The way they have taught you— ‘Kaam aana bhi chahiye aur kaam milna bhi chahiye’—is an absolute gem. Even running like a train is fascinating. But sir, you were ready to accept that as well, which is very important when someone is teaching or guiding you.

You took it as a challenge to follow this, and I believe that has probably been a key factor in your success. Sir, with all of this in mind and knowing that you specialize in constitutional law, what kind of thought process do you observe in the current generation? Since you encounter many individuals joining you as interns or juniors, how do you guide, train, or mentor them to contribute meaningfully to legal reforms and societal progress, particularly through constitutional law matters?”

Over time, as we began receiving more work related to commercial and marketing law, our main focus shifted to handling contractual and commercial cases—what we often refer to as ‘bread and butter.’ However, constitutional law has always been my favorite subject.

Whenever we receive a brief involving a constitutional issue or aspect, I make sure to keep that brief on my table and not delegate it to anyone else. This is a very good question and one of my favorite topics of discussion with new joiners in my firm. This perspective is something I learned from one of the great mentors I had.

He once quoted some lines from the Bhagavad Gita, telling me, ‘You are part of a bigger system. This bigger system means you are contributing to something larger.’ Let’s consider it in a straightforward way: A person whose rights have been infringed—whether by a family member, a government agency, or a private company—is unable to get what he rightfully deserves. He goes to a lawyer, and what does the lawyer do? The lawyer ensures that his case is presented correctly before the judge, and that justice is delivered to him. And not just justice, but meaningful justice—justice that is also executable.

As they say, justice should not only be done; it should also be seen to be done. So, justice shouldn’t only be on paper. This is what a lawyer does for such a person. If society is suffering from injustice, it is you who are ensuring, through your professional advice and service, that justice is imparted.

When justice is imparted, it restores balance. A society only survives and sustains itself when balance is maintained. Without balance, society will not survive for long; it will become chaotic. Therefore, young lawyers must understand that you are not entering this profession solely for its glamour or money.

You are not entering this profession just to become a good advocate. You must also realize that you are becoming part of a bigger system, and you will contribute to maintaining balance in society. The key to that balance, in this country, is our Constitution. You need to have trust in our Constitution.

You need to have trust in your country. Cursing the Constitution or the country won’t help. What helps society is having trust in the Constitution. The best thing the Indian Constitution provides is balance in society.

For the weaker sections of society, it strengthens them. For those who wish to speak for themselves, it empowers them. For those with different opinions, it empowers them as well. For state authorities and bodies that wish to work, it gives duties to the citizens toward those authorities.

It is a balance: you have rights, and you have duties. So, trust the Constitution. If you are able to work on and win some constitutional cases in the form of writs or public interest litigations, and make a difference through the orders you obtain from these petitions, you will be performing your duties in a more meaningful way.

Unlike many other constitutions that focus primarily on rights without emphasizing duties, ours strikes a balance. I may be wrong, sir, but that’s my understanding of our Constitution. The passion you’ve shown is overwhelming for me, especially when you discuss these matters with young lawyers. They also need to connect with societal progress as you do, giving back to society.

Sir, how do you involve or engage young lawyers, and how do you advise them on handling cross-border litigation or cross-border cases? Since you are involved in many domestic and international cases, I’m sure there must be some learnings that differ from how we work in India compared to how international entities operate in the legal field.

What insights or learnings would you like to share with the learners?

One thing I always make clear to anyone joining my firm is that you’ve entered a profession where, mark my words, the hard work required is extraordinary. When I say extraordinary, it is extraordinary. So if you want to run away, run away now, because you will never like yourself to be a kind of lawyer, wherein you will be spoiling cases of your clients, or him suffering losses because of your mistakes.

You might recall the recent NEET issue where memes were circulating about doctors who graduated that year making such mistakes. You don’t want to become that kind of lawyer. So, the first thing I make them realize is that today is your first day, and this is your first file.

There is no point keeping them busy for another year, just doing research, so that by the time they are in actual practice, they’re 28 or 29 years old and considering switching careers to pursue an MBA or GMAT. No, the only practice that we do here is different from other firms, and I have been a junior in many other firms also, so we allocate cases on day one only.

If not the entire case, then at least a part of it, so they have something to work on right from the start. Every day, you’ll find all my associates attending court, either virtually or physically, carrying the files. We are a pure litigation firm.

Another thing that I felt was missing in my previous experience with firms is the lack of interactive sessions. My associates expect me, as their mentor, to guide them on how a case should be handled. While I can’t do every time, I make sure that every seven to ten days, or every two weeks, we sit down together. I pick up one case or a specific issue, and we all gather in the conference room. I then explain the case, discuss how it’s being handled, and how it should be handled, along with some standard rules of drafting, pleading, and convincing—essentially, how these cases should be done.

Sometimes, I do this on an individual basis as well. This kind of one-on-one teaching and interactive session was missing during my junior ship at other firms. I always felt that if I’m working with a successful lawyer, I should benefit fully from their experience, rather than just being impressed by their performance.

So that’s what we are doing. And one thing we’ve noticed across all litigation firms is the new kinds of assignments we’re receiving. Corporates have now started thinking that since we are the lawyers handling their cases in court, where their agreements, contracts, and other documents are being interpreted by the honorable courts, we should be the ones drafting those agreements as well.

I believe it was around six years ago when we received an assignment from one of our leading passenger car manufacturers. They asked us to come to their office in Pune, stating that the redrafting of their agreement had to be done there. We were surprised because such assignments typically don’t come to us; they usually go to specialized drafting lawyers. But they explained that what needs to be included or excluded in the agreement is something we only learn in court. Since we’re the ones who defend and argue these points in court, they felt we should be the ones drafting the agreements as well. So, we conducted a two-day workshop and began the drafting process.

Now, this has become an additional task for my associates, who, while primarily focused on litigation, are also learning the art of drafting contracts.

And believe me, with both drafting and litigation coming under one banner, the outcome will likely be fewer litigations in the future. If you have a well-crafted agreement, it leads to fewer disputes, which will directly and positively impact the health of businesses in the country. This approach will also help reduce the burden on the courts.

As a small, first-generation law firm, we are committed to this idea. I believe there isn’t a single associate in our firm who doesn’t have a client assigned to them. Each associate handles at least one client, either independently or as part of a team of two to three people.

Wow! Sir. You are such an amazing law firm and the strategy is so good. Actually, the thing which you are talking about is absolutely innovative and it will rise to a standard where there will be lesser litigations related to it.  You being so busy with all of these commitments, professional, and obviously your office commitment, then being an AAG as well is a bigger commitment.

How do you recharge yourself or unwind yourself from this kind of commitment centric approach?  And are there any hobbies or activities which you keep on doing with your law office as well? Because obviously everyone is going through some of the other stress for sure. So how do you unwind yourself?

What kind of activities do you follow?

The way our schedule is, ma’am, this is a tricky question to ask a lawyer. Most of us might tell you that we play golf, but honestly, we don’t even have time for that. Let me share an incident I learned from one of my principal associates, Vandana. That day, someone was accompanying me, and I had a sudden change in the timing of a meeting.

I was back from court and was supposed to meet someone at 12:30 PM. The meeting got rescheduled to 2:00 PM, and this associate of mine was with me. When she returned, she was asked, “What does he do when sir’s meeting gets postponed by an hour?” She replied, “He goes to Connaught Place, takes a full round on foot, and buys some books.” The person then asked, “What happened? Why do you ask?” She said, “He took me with him, and we went walking for a full round.”

So, that’s what I do. If a meeting gets delayed and I have some time, I go to Connaught Place, take a full round, and visit some bookshops. It’s also a learning experience for young lawyers.

Read as much as possible. You never know when a topic will come up, and if you’re well-read, you’ll be ready with a response. The more confidently and content-rich you respond, the more it adds to your personality as a lawyer. The more books you read, the better you’ll evolve in your career.

In my free time, I read books. I still prefer older authors—I’m yet to be impressed by any new ones—and I hardly get any time. Although I have plans for the future, I’m not sure if they’ll happen. The best way to cool your mind and relax is to meet some friends at the High Court lobby and talk about this and that. After some time, we’ll end up talking about our children and how they’re growing up.

Other than that, we mostly talk about watches and pens.

Absolutely amazing and honest answer from your side.Yes, reading should be a favorite pastime for everyone. It’s a very new thing that everyone talks about everything around books. But if all of us will start sharing those wisdoms as well, it will help the people who work with us, although we talk about it, but somehow the books are not there in hands and I feel like that is something which I see only in High Courts and Supreme Courts that all our learned friends, they definitely carry books now. Earlier also it was the reality and now also. 

Sir, given this particular inclination towards books and you’re always interested in reading and finding new books, many a times juniors or the new entrants, they have this particular point that we do not have this much to invest in this. How should we go ahead and do it? Sir, I would request you to answer this because we all have gone through this particular phase where we do not have enough to immediately buy so many books.

So how can we garner that particular reading habit? Probably you will be able to guide us through that as well.

When I started reading, I was in school and had access to a library. Later on, I realized that I could ask the librarian for a book I had heard about, even though there was no Google at that time.

All the new books’ information used to get published in Hindustan Times usually on the second or third page. I would tell my librarian about the book I wanted, and he advised me to write an application to the principal requesting it. When I went to university, I had access to a much larger library.

Then I began studying international law, but there wasn’t enough material in the central library at my university. So, I started coming to Delhi. I would take a bus from Rohtak to Delhi or a train that dropped me at Tilak Bridge, and from there, I would walk to the Indian Society of International Law (ISIL), which has an excellent library for international law. I also had friends who helped me access the Indian Law Institute (ILI) library. Delhi has some great libraries, and although books can be quite expensive, libraries are invaluable resources.

You know, if you start buying 10 books, for example, I can read around 10 books over a period of one to three months, it can cost around 3,500 to 4,000 rupees, which is not feasible for a young lawyer. We have WhatsApp groups, so why don’t we have a system for sharing books? My daughter does it.

I’ve noticed that my daughter, even though she’s a growing teen and doesn’t share everything with me, but I’ve seen that she shares books with her friends. Though there is an old saying, my father used to tell me in Punjabi: One who lends the book is a fool.

The one who returns that book is an even bigger fool. So, if you truly want books to be your friends, you have to follow one rule. I can’t recall the author’s name, but he once said, ‘Before buying a new coat, buy a new book.’ I think youngsters should understand this old-fashioned diversion of funds. If they grasp its importance, it will significantly benefit their careers. Especially considering those Gen Z slangs—they’re getting into them, and I wonder where these slangs will be useful. God bless them all

Books offer a profound way to understand the art of storytelling and the essence of contentment. They teach you how to balance a paragraph, a line, and how to learn from experiences that took place thousands of kilometers away from where you live. When you choose an author with the skill of storytelling, you can feel those experiences as if you were there. You can realize that this is so much richer than the 10- or 20-second reels or shorts we often watch, which are only made perfect after 20 or 30 retakes, right?

And the beauty of learning a language can bring so much. You’ve learned the language, you bought all the beads and threads from the market, and you made a necklace out of it. This is how a book is written. The author or the writer learns the language, gains experience, and talks to people. You know, writers are a different kind of species.

So they do wonderful things, beautiful things. If you get to see that beauty in a book, then let it imbibed inside you. Tomorrow, you will start performing more effectively because of those books. This proves the saying: before buying a new coat, buy a new book.

Sir, this brings me to ask you about your views related to technology. How is it helping us and our future grow in terms of legal practice considering everyone is skeptical about the disruption that technology has brought in. It has reduced our reading time and everything about technology’s impact on us is questioned.

How do you see it affecting legal practice as well? And what kind of future do you foresee that may help us grow? How do you get acquainted with technology better?

As far as litigation and other allied services in the legal industry are concerned, we have tried most of the technologies, including ChatGPT and research tools, as well as references provided by some companies. However, I have yet to find a satisfactory solution. I share this opinion with many of my friends and colleagues as well.

We have yet to find a truly helpful technology that would effectively bring about or disrupt this industry. The reason, I believe, is that a more humanely touch is required in handling matters and preparing briefs. Initially, when we started using ChatGPT, we realized that the volume and number of contracts processed even in a particular region are so vast that even an AI might fail. The main issue is that if you cannot properly customize a contract for a client, it is of no use. Even one small mistake can turn the entire agreement into a disaster.

The same goes for drafting your cases as well. So when it comes to technology, particularly the technology that is often discussed, I believe the real game changer is yet to come, if it is coming at all in the future. I have spoken to many AI lawyers and some AI experts, and it seems the transformative impact is still awaited. The good thing is that we started using resources like Manu Patra and SCC since college.

This paperless approach, which has emerged, has significantly reduced the burden of maintaining a law office. My office is almost paperless. As for law reporters, the new generation of lawyers never really used physical law reporters or books. Our fathers, who were not lawyers, had different practices.

So we never inherited those practices from them. The only difference I now see is that when we used to do research from books, we often ended up reading something extra as well. However, if a new associate or lawyer adapts to this modern method of research and also does extra research in their free time, these tools like Manu Patra, SCC, and other websites are very nice, well-organized, and their search functions are excellent. They are also widely accepted in courts. Technology helps everyone—it helps you, it helps me. We saw during the COVID days how technology kept the courts functioning. Now, we take all our briefs on our iPads and tablets, and we have many software tools that help us with note-taking.

As a practice, we often hold a pencil rather than a pen. But one thing, I don’t know why sometimes I think if, in another four or five years, when the next junior associates come to us, they might call me old school. However, believe we should not leave the habit to write, read, and read randomly also, anything.

Somehow, I have this belief in my mind that if you are using technology, you should not leave the habit of writing. Whenever a client comes, we take notes, we have journals. Even today I keep a journal in my own handwriting. So new lawyers who are joining this profession or are very much new to this profession should know, do not lose the habit of writing.

Do not lose the habit of reading and do not lose the habit of maintaining a file also if it is required. Let technology grow. I believe that tomorrow it can help us even more because today it’s only partly helping us.

Thank you, sir, for taking us back to that era of reading, writing, and taking journals. Sir, we are already towards almost the end of the interview.

We would request you, sir, to share some of your insights that you believe are essential for the new entrants or the interns who are seeking opportunities at Patine Law offices as well as others. And if you could share some insights as well about characteristics or attributes that you prioritize while selecting or taking the candidates to join your team.

One thing I always tell them is that lately, as you’ve also noticed, a lot of law colleges have emerged. I don’t know whether I should say this or not, but if you look at the quality of teaching, it has declined in these law colleges. You need to inform a law student about what the profession will look like so that they can start preparing themselves accordingly.

Students will come to us after completing 12 internships, and then I would ask them 10 questions, but they cannot answer 11 of them. The reason is that the idea being circulated to these students is that they need to do an internship at a prestigious place, but they are not asked what they have actually learned. Whenever I ask, they just say they’ve done an internship with this or that judge.

So what did you learn? They never used to tell us anything. If you don’t have anything to share, don’t include it on your resume. The first question I ask anyone applying to my firm is, How much did you score in your matriculation exams? Now, people will tell me, even my daughter, why marks are important? But they are important. It’s not that the subjects of matriculation and 12th grade are important.

What’s important is whether you were able to work hard and move forward. The academic performance you show us will help us understand if you can perform when given an assignment or not. A student who scored 65 percent in 10th grade but achieved 75 percent in 12th grade is more impressive to me than a student who scored 90 percent both times, because it shows that the student was able to improve and turn things around.

This is what he will be doing in this profession as well—interacting with police officers, district-level judges, high court judges, bureaucrats, and public prosecutors. He should not, however, say that he can only communicate with certain types of people and not others.

All students should understand that academics are very important. The second thing is that you need to work on both your written and spoken language skills. This is a profession where you cannot compromise at all. When I say language, I mean both Hindi and English. When you are talking about working in North India, you cannot compromise by saying I don’t know how to read Hindi Just because you learned in a convent. We have been taught by ex-army and navy officers. But one thing we know is that every language has its own glory and you have to learn it. Even today, there will be many drafts which will be coming across which will be in Hindi. So you cannot come tomorrow and say, I want an English version of it. 

This is how I make the assessment for any associate or a young student who is applying for an internship or a job with our firm.  I want this message to go to all young students: stop saying academies do not matter. The people who are motivating you on Instagram or those featured in shows like Shark Tank are often from IITs and IIMs.

You are law students, and IITs and IIMs are often the first choices for many. If you are starting in this profession, remember that it requires extraordinary hard work. You have to read extensively, work diligently, and be consistent. You also need to take care of both your mental and physical health. If you can manage all this, you are entering one of the world’s most wonderful professions.

From any point of view—whether it’s learning, building confidence, or earning—this is the best profession you can be in. The only condition is that the hard work required will be extraordinary. There is no compromise. It’s a railway track: you cannot overtake it or jump over it

Thank you for such an honest opinion and a beautiful enriching experience we have had so much learning today. Thank you, sir, once again, for being here and accepting our invitation at SuperLawyer I hope our learners will understand the critical importance of you saying all these things that you can not only depend on online learning, you have to get into the field and you have to be like railways where you cannot jump and race. 

You just have to be on time and keep on moving. That’s the best possible advice you can get. Thank you so much, sir. Thank you once again.

Thank you!

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