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  • Naga Lakshmi Bhagavatula, Associate Contracts Manager, Amazon, on being a dancer, blogger, and studying in the US

    Naga Lakshmi Bhagavatula, Associate Contracts Manager, Amazon, on being a dancer, blogger, and studying in the US

    Naga Lakshmi Bhavagatula graduated from ILS Law College, Pune, in 2011. After a successful stint at Infosys as Associate Legal Counsel and subsequently as Senior Associate Legal Counsel, she went on to pursue her masters from the University of Pennsylvania Law School, with a focus in business laws. She was also member of the Wharton India Economic Forum, 2015 Organising Committee during her time there. She is currently Associate Contracts Manager at Amazon, where she is member of the Amazon Media Group Legal team, focusing on supporting Sales and Display Ad Services. She works on reviewing and processing all insertion orders (IOs) for the US Sales org, drafts and negotiates Upfront Agreements and MSAs.

    In this interview we speak to her about:

    • Her internship experience and her current role in the e-commerce giant’s legal team
    • Her passion for dance, and how it inspires her
    • Her engagement with blogging, and how she juggles it with the pressures of work

     

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    Lawyer by profession, dancer by passion, blogger by will and a radio jockey by chance. I currently live in Seattle and work in the legal team of Amazon during the day and run a dance school in the evenings.

     

    Tell us a little about your time in ILS Law College, Pune.

    The five years at ILS are some of the best days of my life. As most of my ILS friends would say, it is a place of opportunities and self-learning. It sometimes got me lazy and sometimes put me on my toes. I learnt how to make mistakes and learn from them, taste success and not fall for it and finally be competitive and not lose the spirit of competition. All in all, I owe lot of what I am today as a person and professional to my times at ILS (people and place).

    Regarding my activities at ILS, I was not much into moot courts. For the major part, I enjoyed being the researcher and work with the team. However, I tried my hand in other stuff like the Model United Nations, client counselling, negotiation and drafting competitions. I was on the editorial board of the college magazine for couple of years and was elected, the Ladies Representative to Pune University in my final year. It was a fulfilling five years.

     

    What prompted you to pursue this stream?

    Well, as a small town girl, when I was in Class 12, my awareness about career options was limited. All I knew was that I didn’t want to be a doctor or an engineer. I just wanted to do something different. I wanted to be a journalist. But my parents, who were already worried about me discarding medicine and engineering(the two professions in vogue in 2005) were flabbergasted when I said I wanted to pursue journalism and they convinced me that I could pursue journalism as a secondary profession but I should choose a streamlined primary profession. Later I decided I wanted to pursue law.  I am not sure if there was anything specific that prompted me to pursue law. Though my father is an advocate, I don’t remember talking to him about my interest in his profession. It just happened and I am glad it did.

     

    What role does dance play in your life now?

    I am a native of Kuchipudi village, the birth place of the Kuchipudi dance. I am very lucky to have parents who recognised my interest in dance at a very tender age and found me a wonderful Guru, who made me the dancer I am today. It’s been over 25 years of dancing and it is something that lifts my spirit. I feel absolutely privileged to have imbibed this art form and now be able to pass it on to kids of the next generation. I have a dance school in Seattle area (Purna Mudra School of Kuchipudi Dance) and I have about 40 students and I am thoroughly enjoying my role as a teacher.

     

    How do you prioritise your profession and passion?

    To put it differently, I am trying to balance my profession and passion. At all times, I feel both are my priorities as they complement each other. I surely owe this balance in my life to my mom. When I was a school going kid, my mom always made sure, that I gave equal importance to both dance and education.  This has in a way become an expectation as I moved on in my career path. Balancing dance and work along with other things has become a way of life. According to me, clarity of thought and zeal to pursue something, are two factors that can help anyone to be on top of their profession and passion without having to compromise on either.

     

    Tell us about your interest in blogging.

    (On her blog The Dancing Lawyer, she vociferously celebrates the interplay of passion and profession, especially in the segment “The Other U”.)

    Blogging in general started off as a hobby and I try to keep up with my blog now and then with various things that interest and inspire me. In the process of keeping up with my work and dance, I have always admired and been inspired by people who balance their passion, profession and personal commitments. So, the category “The Other U” is recognising and celebrating such people, and in a way showing people that this can be done.

     

    Can you tell us about your role at Amazon?

    When I was in law school, I was academically inclined towards contract law. When I joined Infosys after law school, I had an opportunity to work on rotation with the corporate team and commercial contracts team. Later I ended up in the commercial contracts team and I thoroughly enjoyed working on contracts and slowly that became my area of specialisation. At Amazon, as Associate Contracts Manager, I work on different contracts supporting Sales and Display Ad Services group of Amazon. It has been great so far working in a new industry and a new working environment.

     

    Talk to us a little about your internships.

    I had four summer internships during my graduation, one every summer for the first four years. Winter breaks were strictly for fun. I used internship opportunities to explore the different avenues I may want to get into when I am looking for a job. I worked with an NGO and political party (Lok Satta), in-house legal team (Dr. Reddy Laboratories), a big law firm (Dua Associates) and a boutique law firm (Krishna & Saurastri). I chose all my internships in Hyderabad and Bangalore as I knew I wanted to live in one of those cities and they were close to home. With these internship experiences, my choice was clear and easy at the end of fourth year. I was sure I wanted to work in-house and started applying for jobs in that direction.

     

    How was the experience of studying in University of Pennsylvania Law School?

    Honestly, LLM days at Penn just went by in the wink of an eye. The course work was fast paced and rigorous. I totally enjoyed preparing for my classes, the class participation, the cold calling (I dreaded that for a long time and then ended up loving it) and working with law students from various parts of the world just added to the amazing experience. In choosing courses, I experimented with the teaching and evaluation methods, like the lectures v/s. seminars, closed book v/s. open book exams, one final dissertation v/s. multiple presentations. This helped me add to my learnings and build a new perspective about law in general. I also had an opportunity to audit few courses outside law school at Penn and that helped me get introduced to new areas. Penn Law does not offer a particular specialization and so I chose courses related to commercial and corporate law, concentrating more on the practical learning tools like drafting, negotiation, etc.

     

    How does one strike a balance between academics and extracurricular interests?

    I believe it is purely a personal choice. I never had top grades in law school, but managed to maintain good academic scores. I think at law school, just after 12th, every student goes through the pressure and confusion in deciding priorities at the beginning, due to several factors (peer pressure being one of them). At the end, it is important to understand what brings satisfaction, and for me it was in being able to participate in co-curricular & extracurricular activities and at the same time manage a decent score.

     

    Any final piece of advice for our readers?

    As Pablo Picasso said “I am always doing things I can’t do. That is how I get to do them”. This has always been my way of life. Since it is best to preach what you practice, my only advice is to keep trying things that you think you cannot do and come out of the comfort zone(both at work or outside). Make time for everything and keep up the profession, passion and most importantly keep up with you.

     

  • Subhodeep Jash, Masters candidate, Hertie School of Governance, on policy analysis, being an ace quizzer, and studying in Europe

    Subhodeep Jash, Masters candidate, Hertie School of Governance, on policy analysis, being an ace quizzer, and studying in Europe

    Subhodeep Jash graduated from Symbiosis Law School, Pune, batch of 2010. He subsequently went on to become a Young India Fellow, and is an alumni of their founding batch. After successful stints with the Department of Commerce, Government of India, and AZB & Partners, he started working with Dua Consulting as Senior Consultant (Regulatory and Public Affairs), where he was responsible for managing and implementing advocacy programs for Google, Cognizant, Harley Davidson, Hershey’s and others. He also drafted position papers, stakeholder maps and policy monitor reports for their government affairs programs. He is currently enrolled at the Master’s program at Hertie School of Governance, Berlin, with a focus on public policy analysis.

    In this interview, we speak to him about:

    • His passion for quizzing and holding a Limca record for the same
    • Studying public policy, and the need for more lawyers to engage in policy reform
    • Studying in Europe, and his plans for the future

     

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    A lawyer by training and a policy wonk by profession, albeit now in a more academic capacity as a Master’s Candidate at the Hertie School of Governance, Berlin. I have a particular interest in policy debates centred around the digital economy.  I also happen to be a huge cinephile (including TV shows), a trivia nerd, and an ardent supporter of Manchester United.

     

    What motivated you to pursue law?

    I wouldn’t say that I knew with certainty during high school that I wanted to take up law. I guess the most appropriate way to describe this would be that I stumbled into it knowing about law as a career path. Initially, having chosen to pursue science (in the engineering stream) in my 12th grade in school, I didn’t have the benefit of knowing about the wider spectrum of alternate careers such as law and economics. However, I guess the seeds were sown at a very basic level in the general interest I took in current affairs as a quizzer as well in civics during my history lectures for the boards in class 10.

    But once I took the decision, I knew that the profession would be challenging, lucrative, intellectually stimulating, and one which plays a significant role in shaping social and economic relations across the globe. The profession does demand a great deal of analytical ability, good research and interpersonal skills, and teamwork, which to some extent I have acquired in law school and over the course of my professional tenure as a researcher at the Ministry of Commerce and as a Consultant at Dua Consulting.

     

    Tell us about how you developed a passion for quizzing and how you continue to pursue it as a prominent interest?

    (Subhodeep has won several quizzing accolades, and also holds the national record in the Limca Book of Records for conducting the first ever quiz in the Antarctic Peninsula in March 2016.)

    From an early age, I had developed a habit of random reading and learning outside my curriculum. This led to my interest in quizzing. Quizzing is an endless mind game which helps individuals keep abreast of developments in general and in their area of interest. It is much more than a trivial pursuit and is as much about knowledge as problem solving. I guess the pinnacle of taking quizzing as a passion forward in a really big way occurred while at law school, where I essentially took more of an interest in participating in quiz competitions over moot courts.

    My interest in knowledge-driven initiatives continued post law school in my association with Walnut Knowledge Solutions (WKS). The idea of starting Walnut occurred in 2011, while I was studying in the Young India Fellowship program. Along with three of my friends from law school, who I believe are amongst the most excellent quizzing minds in India, we envisaged WKS as a knowledge delivery firm utilizing quizzing and other similar knowledge based devices as a means of learning, engagement, and development across schools and colleges.  However, since I didn’t wish to deep dive into this in a more full-time capacity, Sachin and Raghav, the two founding partners took this up as a full-time passion project and it gives me great pleasure to see how they’ve grown with this venture. I did wish to remain on board in a more advisory capacity, and hence I do still keep myself engaged with them. When Sachin and Raghav heard that I was heading to the Antarctic for an expedition, they thought that it would be a great platform for me to conduct a quiz surrounding climate change and related issues right in the heart of the Antarctic Peninsula. Just before I was leaving for the expedition, I was telling them how cool would it to be conduct a quiz there and we were wondering on whether something like this has been done on the Antarctic. The rest, as they say, is history!

     

    Could you tell us what it was like to be a part of the international delegation of young leaders to travel on the expedition to the Antarctic with Robert Swan?  

    I was a part of the India delegation selected for the International Antarctic Expedition 2016 organized by the 2041 Foundation which hosted a leadership program in the Antarctic to debate climate change issues. The Expedition is founded with a mission to inform, engage and inspire the next generation of leaders to take responsibility, be sustainable, and know that now is the time for action in policy development, sustainable business generation and future technologies. This took place for a twelve day period in March 2016 and was led by Robert Swan, OBE, one of the world’s preeminent polar explorers and environmental leaders, who is the first person to have walked both, the North and South Poles.

    At a personal level, the myriad of landscapes, wildlife & elemental forces experienced there is quite indescribable.  Be it the craggy crevasse of a glacier or the sheer expanse of polar ice, whale-spotting or gazing upon a penguin rookery, zodiac cruising or taking a polar plunge. The glacial calving on display there also portends the urgent need for us to introspect on the need for immediate action when it comes to climate change.

    Subhodeep Jash with Robert Swan

     

    Can you tell us about representing your university at some very prestigious events?

    (He has represented Symbiosis Law School at the TATA Crucible Quiz in 2008.)

    I was fortunate to have found an excellent quizzing partner in the form of my batch mate, Suvajit at Symbiosis Law School. We managed to excel in many of these business quizzes and won several competitions. Winning the Pune regionals of Tata Crucible Business Quiz, a national level business quiz (telecast on CNBC TV18) was definitely a high point, especially at the time, given the fact that we were one of the youngest teams in the fray and also as typically a law school wouldn’t be fancied much at these business quiz competitions.

     

    What were your areas of interest during your legal education?

    My theoretical interest in public policy comes from my academic training in Symbiosis Law School and the Young India Fellowship (YIF). At law school, courses in international trade law and arbitration helped me grasp the intricate linkages between the international trade system with industrialization, globalization and multinational corporations. Assignments in law school, business quizzes in national forums, moot court exercises and internships have all been instrumental in inculcating teamwork, adaptability and most importantly, opening up to the idea of a more multi-disciplinary breadth in perspective needed to take up public policy as a career path.

    The impetus towards choosing the career path in public policy was shaped largely by the opportunity to pursue a one year stint with the Commerce Ministry, Government of India straight after law school. I was working as a research trainee with the then Joint Secretary, Mr. Rajeev Kher at the Trade Policy Division on international trade policy issues- WTO and bilaterals.  I was involved in preparation of opinions and research papers to examine the scope of liberalization of certain sectors in the country under the GATS regime. During my tenure, I observed the Free Trade Agreement (FTA) negotiations with EU, Canada and Singapore and carried out background work in this regard. Therefore, these experiences were quite formative in shaping my interest in this field.

     

    Tell us about the post graduate course as part of the Young India Fellowship that you pursued from Ashoka University.

    The Young India Fellowship (YIF) was a holistic learning environment; we had renowned faculty members and mentors and we were exposed to a wide array of practitioners and phenomenal eminent scholars across various disciplines. The courses on economics and public policy taught by leading development economist A. K. Shiva Kumar, international relations by Devesh Kapur (Director, Center for the Advanced Study of India, University of Pennsylvania) and ethics and technology by Kenneth Foster had a deep impact on me, providing the motivation and tools required to look into policy problems from multiple perspectives and not just from the lens of a lawyer. The selection to the YIF was through a highly competitive process. I was among 57 fellows selected for the program, and that too on a full scholarship for the founding batch (of 2012). This post-graduate liberal arts and leadership development program, run by Ashoka University in collaboration with the University of Pennsylvania, was created with the objective of nurturing potential change agents amongst the youth in India. And, this one year experience was quite the tipping point for me in developing the conviction that I don’t really want to take up the more traditional or mainstream career as a lawyer working at a firm or in the sphere of litigation.

    What was the experience like working as a Project Trainee for AZB?

    I was involved in an eight-month Experiential Learning Module (ELM) project with AZB & Partners, dealing with Competition Law and Policy in India. The project demanded an understanding the Indian Jurisprudence of Competition Act, 2002 in relation to the influence carried in the Western philosophy of evolution of anti-trust jurisprudence. I prepared a report that looked into the legal & economic implications on India’s current Anti-trust regime under the aegis of decisions taken by the antitrust regulator, Competition Commission of India (CCI). It was a great learning experience, especially aided by the able guidance of our mentor for the project, Ms. Vinati Kastia.

     

    What did a typical day of work like for you at your time in Dua?

    I worked as a Senior Consultant (Govt. Affairs) with Dua Consulting, the regulatory and public affairs arm of one of India’s leading law firms (Dua Associates) for a span of four years.  My responsibilities included managing government affairs advocacy programs for clients across verticals such as IT, telecom, pharma, etc. on specific issues pertaining to their business interests.

    Besides the regular clientele work, I also handled the drafting of varied independent submissions to the consultation processes initiated by the telecom regulator- TRAI on issues ranging from spectrum valuation, network neutrality to broadband access and delivery. I believe that this part of my job added an extra dimension to my work expertise and moreover, in developing my interest in the specific area of ICT (information and communication technologies), especially having the privilege of able mentorship from Mr. BK Syngal, a Senior Principal at the firm and the former Chairman and Managing Director of VSNL.

     

    What motivated you to quit your job at Dua and pursue a Master’s degree?

    I always did harbour a realization that a more theoretical underpinning and greater academic exposure was needed beyond my training as a lawyer at Symbiosis or in liberal arts at the Young India Fellowship. Hence, I’d made up my mind, around 2014, that I would look to take up a Master’s program in Public Policy.

     

    What was the application process like for the Hertie School of Governance?

    The application process at Hertie, as with most policy school applications require a Letter of Motivation, which is more or less akin to a Statement of Purpose, the CV and a broad application form fulfilling certain basic criteria along with two letters of recommendation (one each from the academic and professional spheres).

    By the time I applied to Hertie last year, I think I’d become seasoned in writing these policy applications. The first program in fact I’d applied to, was the newly initiated Master of Public Policy (MPP) program at National Law School, Bangalore in the summer of ‘14. I did get an offer from NLS but I wasn’t quite convinced about taking up an MPP in India at the point. Hence, I took the GRE and decided to apply for US policy schools initially in 2015. I did receive admission offers from the Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown, Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts and SAIS at Johns Hopkins but none of these schools offered a significant scholarship, which was imperative for me to take up a program in the US.

    Hence, I had to weigh in and take a hard call that I needed to refocus my energies and look at programs in Europe. That’s how I decided to look at the Hertie school, as it seemed to have a great program. A program in Europe also costs significantly lower than the ones in the US, so with the partial scholarship that I received from Hertie, the decision became easier this time around.

     

    How are you finding the academic environment at the Hertie School of Governance?

    The academic environment at the Hertie School of Governance is indeed rigorous and challenging, but at the same time the work load isn’t that strenuous that wouldn’t let you soak in the cultural vibe of being in a city like Berlin. I have just completed my first semester which primarily covered core foundational courses in Statistics and Economics along with courses in Public Management and a course on Comparative Political Economy. Right now, as I begin my 2nd semester, I’m in fact taking a Law and Governance course that would examine economic ordering through law in a more European context.

    Besides the academic rigor, I’m part of an editorial team of the school’s policy magazine, The Governance Post.  During my spare time, I also work as a volunteer with Cinema Politica, a Canadian non-profit organization that hosts alternative and independent film screenings in Berlin.

     

    India often looks to the West and their experiences in developing legislations on emerging fields; how important is it to find an Indian approach to policy making that is indigenous and suited to the Indian context as opposed to borrowing from foreign legislations?

    That’s a very good question and quite interesting that you ask me this. I recall that when I was working at the Commerce Ministry and trying to understand the nuts and bolts that comprise policymaking, the process of developing legislations intrigued me especially while examining the discussion paper on FDI in Multi Brand Retail at the time. The process, which is more or less straitjacketed towards floating a consultation paper, seeks stakeholder inputs and these inputs are then clubbed as per the stakeholder responding to it (i.e., industry, civil society, think tanks, etc.)

    What didn’t seem organic in this entire process for me, was the very basic initial step, the basis on which this initial consultation paper is floated. There is indeed a tendency for us to just pick up international best practices and blindly suggest a model policy along those lines. Thereafter, of course, I’ve had varied experiences of dealing with consultation papers, which have been evolving towards a more Indianized approach. Definitely, one of the most effective and transparent policy making processes we have in place in this country is the route adopted by TRAI.

    I believe, going forward, as we deal with regulation-making in the space of innovation and the digital economy, a more sandbox environment needs to be thought about; that is, to bring in a more collaborative approach with multiple stakeholders involved right from the ancillary stage of floating a consultation paper on a particular issue which would usher in a proactive than reactive paradigm to the policy making process.

     

    Do you feel that law schools have been successful in producing socially relevant lawyers and researchers in the field of policy reform?

    I do believe that with the growing recognition of law as a career path beyond family lines, as was prevalent even to some extent when I entered law school, there has been a steady churn of lawyers doing really exciting work that is of great social value. There is of course, now a lot more national schools out there to present prospective lawyers with more options in terms of range of institutions. I guess students in law schools should very much explore alternate paths when it comes to internships and I personally find organizations such as Vidhi, Internet Freedom Foundation, or even something like PUCL very apt in this regard.

    But I think there’s still more institutional reform needed in the way the legal profession is governed. Liberalizing the legal services sector would be a bold step in this regard; it’s been an issue that’s been delayed for long, as I recall that this was a point of discussion in the WTO services negotiations, back in 2011. While working at the Ministry, I did even draft a submission in this regard as part of the work at the Trade Policy Division.  This would not only be ideal for competition in the traditional legal space but healthy also for opening up new vistas in the more non-conventional paths.

     

    What are your plans after graduating?

    I would like to see myself working in a multifaceted institution and work on finding solutions to complex global challenges through the use of technology as an enabler and a driver of inclusive growth in developing nations. The Master’s program that I’m pursuing, I hope will contribute towards providing me with that impetus.

    I haven’t really thought about this extensively, but I would prefer working with an international organization in the immediate future.

    What would be your parting message to our readers?

    I’d strongly encourage those who are either in law school or looking to enter law school, that they should do so with an open mind in terms of the breadth of options that exist beyond a career at a law firm or in litigation. Even for those, who do make up their mind in taking up a traditional career in law, I think it is important that when it comes to the learning aspect, to go beyond just the core law courses and explore learning about developments in other field(s) such as economics and social anthropology. The law school in itself might not provide you the breeding ground on this; hence it’s important to take this initiative by yourself. This would especially help you in understanding problems from multiple perspectives.

    And, if anyone does want to explore a career in public policy, post law school, I’d be more than happy to share my thoughts and experiences with them.

     

  • Atika Prasad, IP Attorney, Wahl Clipper Corporation, on studying in America, practising internationally and striking work-life balance

    Atika Prasad, IP Attorney, Wahl Clipper Corporation, on studying in America, practising internationally and striking work-life balance

    Atika Prasad graduated from Symbiosis Law School in 2012. She subsequently went on to pursue her Masters from George Washington University, with a focus on Intellectual Property Law. She worked at a boutique patent law firm for about six months, following which she returned to India. She is currently IP Attorney at Wahl Clipper Corporation, where she handles the company’s world-wide IP enforcement.

    In this interview we speak to her about:

    • Being a first generation lawyer
    • Building a strong IP Law practice
    • Managing time between work and personal interests

    Were you always fascinated by the field of IP law?

    IPR is a field that is vast and constantly evolving. The prevalent laws are reformed from time to time in order for it to be in sync with the advancement of technology. In the early years of law school, I was inclined to pursue litigation and was more interested in civil procedural and substantive laws. Soon after, I was introduced to IP and Corporate Law. I was immediately drawn towards the connection between law and the dynamics of innovation. I realized that IP is one such branch of law that forms part of every transaction and has several relevant consequences.

     

    How did you build up your expertise in IPR?

    To keep my knowledge in the field of IP abreast with ongoing changes, I try to take up IP specific short-term courses from time to time. After completing my LL.M., I undertook a two-week course conducted by the WIPO at the USPTO on Copyright and related rights.  Over a period of two weeks, 40 young professionals, selected from across the globe, deliberated over the intersection of International and domestic IP laws of their respective countries. Thereafter, I worked at Hershkovitz & Associates, a Patent Law Firm in Alexandria, Virginia, for a brief period. In February 2014, I started working as Wahl’s IP attorney to handle their IP portfolio and my responsibilities predominantly included enforcement and border protection measures in India. Wahl provided me with the option of combining my understanding of the laws of India and that of the US. I have also been afforded the opportunity to represent Wahl at different platforms across the globe, INTA being one of them. Wahl encourages their employees to continue learning by means of short-term distance learning courses. While being at Wahl, I have completed a few certificate courses conducted by organisations such as FICCI and WIPO.

     

    Tell us about your schooling and early life. What, according to you, sparked your interest in law?

    To be the daughter of an eminent orthopedic surgeon (my father) and a renowned histopathologist and former president of IMA (my mother), life has been a sine wave. On one hand you get everything, the right advice, the right resources, and the right environment; on the other hand, living up to the expectations is certainly not easy.

    In school, I lived in the shadow of my elder brother (now a neurologist in USA) and teachers would always compare me with him and his achievements. All that did was to encourage me to put my best foot forward in whatever task and assignment I undertook. Come to think of it, choosing law as a profession was not that difficult of a decision. I had made up my mind when I was thirteen. I was amazed with the idea that throughout my entire life I can continue to be creative in my thought process, read every day, write, get introduced to new people, think and analyze issues and put forth my opinion.

     

    How important are internships for a law student?

    I feel law schools in India mostly provide theoretical knowledge rather than providing a practical insight. The practical aspect of legal system in India is too distinct from the theoretical aspect. This is where internships play an imperative role in enabling a law student to gain firsthand experience of court practice and understand the practical application of legal theory better. I think varied options of pursuing internships under Advocates practicing at different levels of court in different cities, law firms and corporations, widens the prospects of possible practice fields for a law student. Hands on experience in so far as the practical implications that the profession demands, is an added factor which assists a law student in making one of the most important decisions of being a litigator or a corporate attorney.

     

    How do you maintain your work-life balance?

    Working for a multinational company not only requires an individual to possess legal acumen but also entails certain added responsibilities. My work profile demands extensive travel to different countries every month. As they say, the transition phase in one’s life is the most important and the sooner one is able to achieve a balance between the conflicting interests of work and life, the better it is for one’s own development in the longer run. Personally, I feel lucky to be married to a workaholic lawyer who not only understands the level of commitment which this profession demands but also encourages me on a regular basis to deliver to the best of my capabilities. Moreover, Wahl gives me a great amount of flexibility, which in effect helps me manage work and personal life.

    How did you decide to pursue an LL.M.?

    Pursuing an LLM was a well thought out decision, which was taken after much consideration and strongly encouraged by my family. While I was studying IP, I realized that the various treaties and conventions to which the country in question is a signatory, govern domestic IP laws. Apart from the various domestic issues involved in this area of law, it also has far reaching international and commercial implications. These factors reinstated my decision to have an in depth knowledge in the subject and specialize in the same. I was convinced that international exposure in the field of IP law via comparative analysis of a developed jurisprudence would be helpful and it actually was.

     

    What are the essential skills required to be a corporate lawyer?

    Every corporation/law firm/company has a completely different work culture. As a corporate lawyer, one needs to understand the work culture of the corporation for which one works. As far as my experience goes, I believe inter-personal skills are to be given far more credence while representing a corporation. If an individual chooses to practice as a corporate attorney then a conscious effort from the very beginning in grooming communication skills would certainly be advisable. One needs to constantly understand the concerns of the company.  Apart from that, it is always helpful to be aware of general commercial development with respect to the relevant industry practices and also be updated on the same.  Primarily, every corporate lawyer should always have a result-oriented approach, should be able to think on one’s feet and improvise when needed.

     

    What are the primary professional ethics you follow while at work?

    While prioritizing the interests of the company, I ensure that I listen and understand what the other person has to say and wants, without interjection. Also, management of time is crucial and I make sure that I am clear on the deadlines of any work that is to be done and accordingly, if need be, prioritize. One needs to be mindful that timely adherence to the deadlines while being the face of the corporation reflects not only on the attributes of an individual but also the corporation.

    It’s perfectly human to make mistakes while executing any task; the key is to learn from it as soon as you commit them. Apart from this, it is of utmost importance that an attorney religiously follows the internal code of conduct and other policies of the corporation.

     

    Where do you see yourself ten years down the line?

    When I was doing my law, I just thought that I would be the country head of a multinational company in ten years. Three years ago, when I joined Wahl as a young attorney who handled their IP portfolio only for India, I did not know that within three years I would be handling their worldwide IP enforcement.

    While working towards one’s goal, one has a better understanding of the opportunities that come along and one’s own capabilities. With the support of my family and the opportunities given to me by my superiors, I can say without a doubt that I have all the determination to be a sprightly attorney, a finisher who has the eye for detail and a manager who takes initiative. I believe my ultimate aim after ten years is the coveted YPO membership, an organization which needs no introduction and its membership would truly be a dream come true.

     

    What is the role of an In-House/General Counsel in India?

    As of now, my role as the IP attorney of Wahl Clipper Corporation is multifold. I began with handling the IP enforcement of the company with respect to India, in 2014. A few more jurisdictions including the Asia Pacific, Africa, Russia, and UAE were added to my work profile last year and now I handle their worldwide IP enforcement. The job is as challenging as it sounds. Being responsible for so many different countries with different time zones definitely leads to a great deal of travelling and efficient time management.

    As part of the global IP enforcement of the company, I handle IP infringement related lawsuits and negotiations, Trademark and Copyright Customs registrations and also supervise online enforcement. With the laws and regulatory procedures becoming more complex, I believe it is the foremost responsibility of an in-house counsel to secure the interests of the Company from any present or future impediments.

    What would be your parting message to our readers?

    Every day is a learning process. I think willingness/eagerness to learn, skillful time management along with creatively strategizing on the issues at hand, are the most important qualities that one can possess. One should consider failures as stepping stones to success.

     

  • Joyjayanti Chatterjee, Research Fellow, Vidhi Center for Legal Policy, on studying in Columbia and her experience in corporate law

    Joyjayanti Chatterjee, Research Fellow, Vidhi Center for Legal Policy, on studying in Columbia and her experience in corporate law

    Joyjayanti Chatterjee graduated from Symbiosis Law School in 2011. She went on to pursue her Masters from Columbia University, with a focus on Antitrust Law, Intellectual Property Law, and Corporate Law. She is currently a Research Fellow at Vidhi Centre for Legal Policy. She is part of a team which advises the Government of India on various aspects of corporate law and financial regulation. Prior to this, Joyjayanti was an associate in the Competition Law team of Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas and Co.

    In this interview we speak to her about:

    • Her time in Columbia, the curriculum and studying abroad
    • Her internship experience
    • Her time at Vidhi, the nature of her job, and the responsibilities it entails

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    This already sounds like a job interview! I am a first-generation lawyer and policy enthusiast, a bibliophile, and a feminist. I believe in staying true to one’s beliefs, working towards realizing goals and dreams while never taking life or yourself too seriously.

    What motivated you to take up law?

    Frankly, I feel that at the age of seventeen, very few people really know what they want to do with their lives and I was no different. In that sense, I cannot say that I had always been inclined towards law, or any other career, for that matter.

    Growing up, I was a voracious reader and deeply interested in the humanities and social sciences. At the same time, having studied science in class 11 and 12 equipped me with analytical skills and encouraged me to question things and not accept ideas at their face without due scrutiny. I also had a lot of ideas at that point (some of them a tad too idealistic, in retrospect) of going out there and changing the world. That time period also happened to coincide with the unprecedented mass movements surrounding the Jessica Lal murder trial and the Novartis litigation which finally paved the way for cheaper life-saving drugs in India. These events deeply affected me as an impressionable youngster. A crash course with law school tutorials brought me in touch with some really cool lawyers who mentored us and I realized the importance of good lawyers in our society and I guess I wanted to be one of them.

    All of this, coupled with some healthy encouragement from my parents led me to take up law as a choice of career.

     

    Share with us your experience as a student at Symbiosis International University.

    My stint at Symbiosis Law School was an enriching and enjoyable experience. Apart from sound academic training, I learnt a host of important life-skills from my time spent there. Moving from the small town of Dehradun to the cosmopolitan city of Pune was in many ways a culture shock but I found my footing and made some good friends fairly quickly. Spending five very formative years of my life surrounded by smart and gifted people from around the country influenced me deeply and has significantly contributed towards moulding me into the person I am today.

    Law schools usually provide opportunities to engage in a host of extra-curricular and co-curricular activities and I think that this is something all students should take full advantage of. Be it sports, mooting, debating, fine arts, or even slam poetry, there is something to suit all personalities.

    While in law school I actively took part in moots court competitions and represented my college in a number of them. I also helped organising multiple editions of our college fest. I was a member of the Human Rights Cell and taught underprivileged children over a period of five years, which was one of the experiences I cherish the most.

    Dividing time between activities and studies is largely a matter of balancing of priorities. Whatever be the reason for taking up an activity—be it to further your CV or to do something you love—you’ll find your way around to it.

     

    Tell us about your internship experience and how that helped you realise your ambitions?

    Internships are no doubt important for law students. I did not, however, follow a fixed strategy towards internships. I had my share of good and not-so-good internships but they all taught me something or the other. For instance, one particular internship exposed me to (what was then still in the drafting stage) Competition Law and led me to study it and then go on to practise it. Other internships helped me realise and hone my love for intellectual property. Some internships helped me find some wonderful friends and mentors. Most importantly, the internships gave me a real-life experience of law which cannot be taught in classrooms.

     

    How was your experience working at Shardul Amarchand and Mangaldas & Co.?

    I had been interested in Competition Law right from the time I was first exposed to it during an internship. I was fascinated by the intersection of law, economics and policy that this field of law presented. Competition Law was also among my areas of study during my LL.M. The fact that it was the “new-kid-on-the block” of law in India added to its charm. Upon my return to India after completing my LL.M., Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas and Co. interviewed me and offered me a position in their Competition Law Team. SAM’s competition law team has some of the best and the brightest legal brains in the country and the experience taught me a lot; from the nuances of competition law to managing the pressures of working in Big Law. Working on some of the most significant issues in an emerging and exciting field of law was very satisfying professionally.

     

    What motivated you to quit your job and pursue a Master’s degree?

    I always had the intention of eventually pursuing a Master’s degree. However, I wanted to gather some work experience before that. My family is also very academically inclined and always encouraged me and almost insisted on me studying further. For me, studying further was never just about getting another degree but more also about living in a foreign country, being exposed to a plurality of cultures and view points, and having a lot of adventures. All these factors led me to pursue a Master’s degree.

     

    What are the parameters one should look at while choosing a grad school for LL.M.?

    The overall profile of the college/university one is applying to, the range of course offerings, and how well one’s particular area of interest ties in with these factors are important criteria, in my opinion. All schools have their strengths when it comes to specializations and faculty and I would encourage prospective applicants to examine these in detail. Most foreign law schools (I can at least speak of US law schools) have a gamut of information, including details about courses, course and professor ratings, reviews, etc. on their websites which serve as an excellent resource. A lot of schools, by virtue of location and/or university affiliation offer added advantages and these can form an important part of the consideration as well. For instance, Columbia Law School is in the city of New York and allows cross credits in not just other schools under Columbia University but also NYU. It allows students a lot of flexibility while choosing courses and offers a wide variety of activities. These affected my decision making considerably.

    I applied to a few other US law schools like NYU, Berkeley, Chicago, and Georgetown.

    What was the academic environment like at Columbia Law School?

    The academic environment at Columbia was very different from what I was used to in India. American universities are very mature in their treatment of students and also expect a lot of maturity in return. While you’ll be given a lot of freedom and leeway when it comes to course selections and other academic choices, the Socratic method requires preparing extensively for every class (often involving hundreds of pages of readings), being ready to be “called on” in class and making meaningful contributions to the class discourse. The quality of classes, professors and infrastructure was unparalleled. I loved the fact that I had people of so many nationalities and from so many walks of life around and the constant encouragement to voice one’s ideas, no matter how far-fetched or ludicrous.

    Also, we had a seemingly endless supply of free food and free coffee and cookies on the campus.  Trust me, when you are a grad student keeping a tab of every dollar spent, these things matter!

    I was the LL.M. representative for the Antitrust Association and helped organize a number of events. I was also members of the Columbia Law Women’s Association and the Gastronomy Club.

     

    How did you decide to join Vidhi as a Research Fellow?

    While I never doubted my choice of law as a career option, I never saw myself in a law firm setting for the entirety of my legal career. Legal policy in India is still a niche area and there are not too many people doing this work. I knew about Vidhi and was intrigued by how they had made a mark in the legal policy sphere in a very short period of time. I was also awed by the immense talent Vidhi housed. Just as I was looking for a shift, Vidhi was also looking to hire for its Corporate Law and Financial Regulation team. This aligned perfectly with the direction I wanted my legal career to take and I ended up joining Vidhi as a Research Fellow.

     

    What is the nature of your work at Vidhi Centre for Legal Policy?

    My work at Vidhi focuses on policy and research. Vidhi’s objectives are to plug the gaps in our legal system and to facilitate better working of our legal system. To these ends, we engage with various ministries and offer legislative and drafting assistance to them. Vidhi fellows are also instrumental in identifying problem areas in the socio-legal framework and carrying out independent research reports on them.

    Working at Vidhi has been a truly wonderful experience and has helped me grow professionally as well as personally. The atmosphere at Vidhi is intellectually stimulating and at the same time, vibrant, and tons of fun. I have seen first-hand the transition of ideas and reports into fully functional laws and much required changes in the legal system. This is a very gratifying, not to mention a great learning experience. Vidhi entrusts its fellows with a lot of responsibility and encourages them to do high level work and take ownership of it. Our work also involves continuous interaction with various members of the Government, members of regulatory bodies and industry experts. These experiences have polished my analytical, research and problem-solving skills. Another important skill I have picked up is the manner of interacting with a variety of stakeholders and effectively balancing their interests while keeping in mind the overall policy issue at hand.

     

    What advice would you like to give students who are keen on publishing?

    Most of my publications are newspaper articles. There is no set approach towards authoring a paper or a publication, really. Pick a topic that interests you. Be mindful of your audience. Are you targeting a non-lawyer, non-academic audience or are you catering to your fellow lawyers? Tweak your approach accordingly. Keep your writing nuanced rather than trying to address too many issues in one piece. Check and cross check your data and as far as possible, rely on primary sources. Aim on using simple, easy understandable language rather than grandiloquent prose.

     

    What are your interests outside law? How do you find time to pursue them along with your professional commitments?

    I enjoy reading, listening to music, cooking, and occasionally writing. Delhi, for all its flaws, has a lot of history and culture, and I try to take the time to explore these aspects of the city. From time to time, I try to take up a new project, be it trying to learn the basics of a new language or educating myself in a new (preferably non-law) topic.

    It is not always easy to make time for various pursuits but it boils down to the fact that if you really want to, you can make the time for interests in the face of professional commitments.

     

    What would be your parting message to our readers?

    When it comes to picking a career path, choose something you believe in and are invested in and as far as possible, enjoy doing. The virtues of hard work, focus and determination have been gone into by far more qualified peers on this platform so I won’t delve deeper into that.  For the new graduates or those on the verge of graduating, don’t fret if you don’t land the dream job or the admission in the first attempt. Do not worry about having/not having a plan.

    A law degree opens many doors and there are a lot of directions a career in law can take. Have an open mind and do not restrict yourself in the decisions you make. Be well rounded and well read, and not just in the field of law. Restricting your pursuit of knowledge to your field alone denies you the advantages of versatility and inter-sectoral thinking.

    Lawyers, especially in the initial years of their careers tend to have busy and often grueling schedules. Do try to make time for pursuits, activities and talents. The importance of friends, family and loved ones cannot be stressed upon harder and you’ll constantly need all their support.

     

     

  • Rajas Pingle, Partner, Netlawgic Legal Services, on his passion for technology and the state of cyber law in India

    Rajas Pingle, Partner, Netlawgic Legal Services, on his passion for technology and the state of cyber law in India

    Rajas Pingle graduated from ILS Law College in the year 2011. Since then he’s been visiting lecturer at (DSCI – NASSCOM) India Cyber Lab – Pune, and cyber lawyer at the District/Session Court (Pune)  Bombay High Court and Adjudicating Officer (IT ACT). He is currently Partner at Netlawgic Legal Services, offering services to combat cyber crimes, computer security related incidents, corporate espionage, financial frauds, data theft, hacking , computer security related issues, among others. 

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • Combining technology with law
    • The state of cyber law in India and what he would like to change
    • Training the police force and being invited to the Rajya Sabha

     

    How would you introduce yourself to our readers?

    In a nutshell there is only one word which defines me, ‘TechnoLawgy’. I have been practicing Information Technology Law for more than six years and have handled almost every type of cybercrime case. I also conduct training sessions for various government organisations and corporates in India and abroad pertaining to Cyber Law and cyber crime. As they say, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”. Likewise my love for technology drives me to learn new things every day and to discover this magic.

     

    What motivated you to take up law as your choice of career? Have you always been inclined to a career in this field?

    I have been a technology nerd from the early ages of my life with no intentions whatsoever in pursuing law as a career. Since my parents were practicing lawyers I got into law school. The first two years went by but I lacked precision. It was only in the third year of law, you can say as Buddha obtained enlightenment, I obtained my illumination when I got introduced to this amazing world of Information Technology Laws (Cyber Laws). That was the turning point in my life and from that day forward, I was certain that I am going to pursue cyber law as my profession in an attempt to combine my technology knowledge with law. When career and passion comes together, work doesn’t seem like work anymore.

     

    Please tell us a bit about the internships you took up during your legal education.

    Candidly, I did not join any lawyer or apply for an internship in a reputed law firm as every ideal law student does. I earnestly desired to do something different so I applied for an internship in DSCI- (Data Security Council of India), Pune Cyber Lab. It is a joint initiative of NASSCOM and DSCI. The lab was mainly established to train police officers in the area of technology and information technology laws. I used to teach information technology laws to police officers. I learnt a lot from this experience, especially real time challenges faced by police officers while investigating cybercrimes. In addition to interning at DSCI-NASSCOM Pune Cyber Lab, I also used to visit court with my father to learn about the court procedure and it helped a lot. I would say that all this helped groom me as a better lawyer.

     

    How does one acquire expertise in an inter-disciplinary field like information technology law in understanding both the legal and technical aspects that go hand in hand?

    Interactions on real time cybercrime cases with police officers while teaching them information technology law proved beneficial for me as it supplemented my theoretical knowledge with practical experience. Furthermore, while pursuing law I completed following independent courses:

    • Diploma in Cyber Law
    • PG Diploma in Cyber Law
    • Certified Cyber Crime Investigator
    • Certified Ethical Hacker
    • PG Diploma in IPR

    These courses were both technical and legal in nature which helped me to expand my knowledge base. In the course of my journey, I realised technology is like oxygen- ubiquitous, necessary and invisible and thus it is equally important to be apprised of all latest trends in the field.

     

    Do you think that the present legal framework in India adequately addresses the growing forms of cyber crimes?

    For every lock, there is someone out there trying to pick it or break in. Information technology alone cannot provide us an absolute shield against its evil twin disinformation technology. Our only protection is law. Information Technology Act was introduced in the year 2000 and it was the first technology related legislation in India. Thereafter, in 2008 the Act was substantially amended to include various offences and definitions. The technology is progressing at a very fast pace and the modus operandi of the perpetrator is ever changing and evolving with the technology. Considering these factors, eight years is too long for amendment. If we consider the investigation perspective, many changes are required to increase the conviction rate. Moreover, as per my observation India is a country where people don’t give that much importance to their personal information. One can read in the news every day, how US and EU emphasize on their data protection laws being well established and stringent while in India we don’t even have a data protection regime in place or separate legislation on privacy. We are yet again completing the eight years cycle, let’s hope for a comprehensive amendment soon.

    Share with us your experiences practicing as a cyber-lawyer before the Bombay High Court and the Adjudicating Officer under the IT Act.

    Proceedings before the Adjudicating Officer are largely based on few provisions of the Information Technology Act and the principles of natural justice. As per the law, the Adjudicating Officer needs to pass a final order within six months from the date of filing. Unfortunately it is very rarely followed. In addition to delays, the Cyber Appellate Tribunal has been out of function for the last five years or so. Under the present system, one needs to approach the High Court directly for an appeal from the order passed by the Adjudicating Officer. With not much precedent in the sector, the practice is certainly demanding and engaging. As far as preparation is concerned, I have to look at the case from both angles i.e. technical and legal. Coming to the preparation of complaint, it is always better to simplify the drafting as far as possible to an understandable format instead of using all technical terms.

            

    You have been invited by the Rajya Sabha to review the IT Act. Could you please tell us about it?

    I was invited by the Rajya Sabha committee on petitions to give my views on the topic of ‘Cyber Pornography’. The agenda for discussion was “To put a check on Cyber Pornography among children by amending the IT Act, 2000”. The current Information Technology Act does not completely prohibit pornography and private consumption is not punishable. There was productive discussion between cyber law experts and legislative members and I was asked to submit a note on the same.

     

    What has your experience been like while representing international clients and successfully arguing international cyber law cases?

    I am very fortunate to receive international exposure at the early stages. I have successfully represented clients from Texas, New York, and Puerto Rico in various cyber law cases and also mediation. With hard work and luck on my side, I was successful in recovering respectable settlement figures for my clients against U.S. and Japan based companies in the matter of unauthorised copying of data. Additionally, I am closely working with international clients with offices in India and abroad. While handling international clients, I observed stark differences in their working style and culture. Furthermore, I got exposure to diverse laws which assist you to compare your country’s position in relation to such international issues. Overall it’s been a wonderful journey so far.

     

    Tell us about your role as Partner at Netlawgic Legal Services LLP. What does a typical work day look like for you?

    I started Netlawgic with the sole intention to provide Techno Legal solutions to the industry. Our focus and experience in both areas of Cyber Crime Investigation and Technology law, allows us to provide our clients with specialized attention and problem solving in all aspects of Technology law. That said, I start my day with reading e-news articles regarding cybercrimes across the globe, to keep the zest of learning alive and thus keep myself updated. Rest of the day is pretty simple with meetings, court and office.

     

    How has your experience in academia been?

    (Rajas has worked with several governmental and non-governmental organizations in training officers in cyber law. He also teaches cyber law at national and international educational institutions.)

    Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world. Teaching is one of the things I love and whenever I get time I allot it for teaching. While teaching I cultivate new learnings, ignite the imagination and instil creative expressions. It is a very satisfying experience, especially when I have healthy debates among students/officers on different aspects of cybercrime and cyber law. I also tend to learn a lot from these debates. It’s a completely different experience when I teach in international institutes as the exchange of knowledge is on the global platform and is a synthesis of varied legal practices and procedures. It would be difficult for me to choose between the two, I would love to keep doing both, practice information technology law and pass on that knowledge through teaching.

    How do you manage your time, juggling various roles?

    It is said that time and tide wait for none. Based on my experience, I can say that time management is the greatest virtue and the one who learns to manage it effectively will go many milestones in life. I am still learning to manage the same. Many a time, there are clashes among court dates, meetings and lectures on the table, especially when I travel abroad to deliver lectures. In this situation I have to prioritize and move forward accordingly.

     

    Do you have any role models/ guides or mentors in the industry?

    I learnt a lot about technology from my brother Mr. Harshad Pingle who is an engineer by profession. Other than my brother, Mr. Sandip Gadiya who is a well renowned Cyber Crime Investigator in India guided me along the way. His knowledge in cybercrime investigation helped me gain deeper insight of cybercrime investigation and for that I am eternally grateful to him. It is definitely helpful to have someone to take advice from when you are starting your career. What is important in the end is that you should keep on learning and always learn from your mistakes while moving forward.

     

    What would be your parting message to our readers?

    I want to quote Steve Jobs here “Sometimes when you innovate, you make mistakes. It is best to admit them quickly, and get on with improving your other innovations”. The same logic is applicable in law practice, you make mistakes, you learn from them and move on. Ultimately find something which you can relate to and love doing. Don’t be a part of the rat race.

     

  • Bharadwaj Jaishankar, Attorney, Associate Partner at Sim and San, on being a first generation lawyer, his experience in IP Law, and the importance of internships

    Bharadwaj Jaishankar, Attorney, Associate Partner at Sim and San, on being a first generation lawyer, his experience in IP Law, and the importance of internships

    Having graduated in 2008 from Symbiosis Law School, Pune, Bharadwaj began his career at K&S Partners, a tier 1 boutique intellectual property law firm. Having spent five years there, he joined Saikrishna & Associates, a tier 1 intellectual property & commercial law firm, in November, 2013. Thereafter, Bharadwaj joined  Sim and San, Attorneys At Law. Bharadwaj has over eight years of solid and in-depth work experience and knowledge in the fields of Intellectual Property and Commercial law.

    In this interview he speaks to us about:

    • His experience in IP Law
    • The transition from working for tier 1 law firms to working with a smaller set-up
    • His foray into academia

     

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    I am a first generation lawyer, with my father being a management guru and my mother who, amongst other activities, is a singer. I have a younger brother, who is an aspiring musician and a music producer. In that sense, it is a fantastic and exciting feeling to know that, where I stand today, is on account of my own efforts and hard-work. That being said, I have been extremely fortunate to have had and continue to have some great mentors in my professional career who have played a vital role in my professional career path. My career has also immensely benefited from the fact that my wife, Raddhika Singh, is also a lawyer.

     

    Could you tell us why you chose B.BA. over a B.A. degree?

    When I joined law school, I had the option of choosing either the B.BA. or BA law degree course. B.BA. was the preferred option for me, as the business subjects (forming part of the course) interested me more. That being said, what I have learnt these past more than eight years is that the specificities of your degree do not matter eventually. Just because someone does the B.A. .LLB course, it does not mean that they are incapable of dealing with commercial/business issues. The same is true inversely. Ultimately, it comes down to the individual.

    By the time I hit high school, I was still unsure of what I wanted to pursue in college. My paternal grandfather, who belonged to the first IAS batch of administrators, played a huge role in directing me towards law. He believed that I had the requisite skills to become a good lawyer. I am extremely thankful for the passion and drive he showed towards my career.

     

    What are the kinds of activities that you took part in during your legal education?

    In college, I made a concerted effort to participate in moot courts. Moot courts are extremely important for a law student. Some of the skills that are acquired through mooting have immense value to a law student, once they become advocates. These skills include (i) understanding the facts at hand and identifying the key issues involved (ii) conducting research and building up of a case (iii) drafting a memorial (iv) arguing the case (v) court manners (vi) identifying and addressing rebuttal arguments etc. All of the above find an application when handling a real case. The value of participating  in moot courts is, therefore, essential and crucial for the development of a good lawyer.

    Appearing both as a speaker and a researcher in several State and National level moot court competitions, there was also scope to mentor mooting teams in my last couple of years in college. A lot of what I learnt through mooting helped me in my initial years as a green-horn in the profession.

    Apart from mooting, I also helped organize seminars, guest lectures and symposiums for college. If anything, these enabled me to interact closely with some of India’s finest legal minds. I was able to pick their brains and gain valuable insight into the profession, as well as get some solid career advice. I certainly feel that, as a law student, it is also important to interact with senior and respected members of the profession, as their practical inputs and advice certainly help in making career choices for law students.

     

    How important are internships for an aspiring lawyer?

    Being a first generation lawyer, it immediately occurred to me, during my first semester in college, that internships would be crucial to me securing a job. In fact, it is through my internships that I was lucky enough to receive a pre-placement offer from K&S Partners (one of India’s leading boutique IP Firms), before college placement madness began for my batch.

    As a law student, and I still hold this opinion today, it is important to experience different kinds of internships. During my five years at law school, I managed to intern with single practitioners, a designated Senior Counsel, general and boutique law firms, a company, and with an international NGO in South Africa. Doing such a wide array of internships certainly helped me zero in on where I wanted to work and, most importantly, the kind of work I wanted to do. There are just so many avenues of law that can be explored. My internships in the initial couple of years gave me exposure to different types of law. Around my third year, I got interested in IP law and, thereafter, my internships focussed on firms that practiced IP law. Through such focussed internships, I was able to get a PPO.

    It is also important to do internships as often as possible. In my time, we did not have the luxury of doing running internships. Nor did we have a set-up whereby minimal subjects were taught in the final year, thereby providing an opportunity to just intern in the final year, with the objective of landing a PPO. In fact, today, my office has a couple of such final year interns; who have only one subject to study. Such opportunities were not there when I was in college.

    Internships become that much more important when one is a first generation lawyer. Building up contacts through internships is important both from getting a job, as well as from a networking perspective. You never know when a contact cultivated through an internship becomes important at a later date. It goes without saying that the approach of work, the work itself and conduct are extremely crucial during an internship. Just because a law student secures a good internship, does not automatically mean that a PPO is possible. The onus is completely on the law student to make the best of their internship. Going the extra mile on assigned work and deliverables does have a make a big difference during an internship. Apart from the work, the conduct and mannerisms of the law student during internships is also important. Apart from showcasing professional ability, I equally feel that showcasing your personality (as an open and approachable person as opposed to being arrogant or cocky) is also important. I guess to sum it up, a law student would want to be remembered in a favourable light after the conclusion of the internship. From my personal experience, I still remember, and am in touch with, some of the interns who really made a mark when interning with me (or my firm).  

     

    How important is it to cultivate the skill of academic writing for young lawyers and students?

    (Bharadwaj has had his works published in a wide array of IPR journals.)

    It is really important for a lawyer to write articles/papers. Yes, with demanding schedules, it is easy to ignore this aspect. Writing articles and getting them published have great professional and personal advantages.  It also gives immense personal satisfaction! Some benefits that accrue from writing papers include:

    1. It brings fantastic exposure to the author. Writing in the right publication, having quality and wide readership, provides a brilliant platform for the author to show himself/ herself. The style of writing, manner, background research, thought process, analytical skills etc., all get showcased.
    2. It provides an opportunity for the author to create a niche and become an industry expert. Who knows, potential clients can emerge from reading articles and publications.
    3. It pushes the author to bring themselves up to speed with the law and developments, both in India and worldwide.
    4. It also helps develop drafting and analytical skills.
    5. Adds immense character and value-add to the author’s profile.

    The list of advantages can be endless. Finding a balance between work, personal life and writing is the key. The balance has to be found. If it means staying up a little longer or writing during a holiday, then I suggest you do it. Personally, I try and plan my schedule in such a way that I carve out time, either on a Saturday or Sunday, to try and write. Sometimes, I am able to write an entire article without a break and other times, other circumstances, force me to write in stages. No matter what the circumstances, I do force myself to write. In a way, making a commitment to a publication forces me to honour the same, thereby giving me no option but to write.

     

     

    Please share with us your experience at K&S Partners, your first job.

    Working at K&S Partners is something that I will always cherish. I spent my first five years in the profession working with K&S Partners. I was lucky enough to intern twice at K&S Partners, before getting my PPO from them. Hence, when I started working, I knew most people there- lawyers and support staff. That helped.

    I can honestly say today that working at K&S Partners played a HUGE part in shaping me as a lawyer and professional. The first office that a lawyer works with will, and should, always hold a special place. Some of my mentors (who continue to mentor me today) are with K&S Partners. In that sense, I consider myself extremely fortunate. Of course, it goes without saying that this is a two way street. I know the amount of effort and application I had to put in at K&S Partners, to ensure that I benefited from anything that was offered to me by the firm.

    As a fresher, I had to put in extra effort to bring myself up to speed with the law and practice. What I learnt, very quickly, was that the law you learn in a classroom is completely different from the law that is practiced. Even after work, I would spend time reading judgments and commentaries, so that the following day, I could add value. For me (and indeed for every aspiring lawyer), along with doing the grunt work, it is equally important to contribute from a strategy perspective. You don’t want to get tagged as a lawyer who can only execute. It is also important to be known as someone who contributes at the ideation and strategy phase as well. K&S Partners allowed me to do that. Of course, I had to ensure that I put myself in such a position where I was able to do that.

    A lot of what I learnt and imbibed at K&S Partners still stay with me today. Working for five years at a tier-1 firm provided me with an excellent launch pad to make a name for myself in this profession. I will always be grateful for the time I spent with K&S Partners. Apart from having some excellent colleagues, I made some lovely friends, with whom I remain in contact till date.

     

    What motivated you to choose IPR as your area of expertise?

    Sometime in my third year of law school, I realized that I had developed an interest in IP law. Till that time, I had done some work, through my internships, on other areas of law. I can’t exactly recall what motivated me to pursue IP. I do recall that working with brand names that form an everyday aspect of my life (from my toothbrush brand to the clothes I wore to the pen I wrote with etc.), did influence me. Interning with K&S Partners, a boutique IP firm, influenced me heavily. The work I did as an intern (twice) around brand names, IP in Bollywood, Image rights etc., really got me excited about IP. I have never looked back since.

    Luckily, through my professional career, I have been able to work with different IPs and work on different aspects of IP. In my experience, what a lot of people don’t realize; is how important IP is and can be. It is really looked upon as just another asset and not as a vital asset that can make or break business. A good IP protection, enforcement and exploitation strategy can mean the very existence (including market domination) or destruction of an entity (be it an individual or corporate house). Especially in today’s start-up environment, big ticket funding, series funding etc. can can be rendered irrelevant, and in fact wasteful, if IP is not protected or secured. Working in such an atmosphere is very exciting for me.

    In fact, for over eight years, I made a conscious effort to stay away from patents on the ground that I did not have a science background. I knew the basics of patent law and the importance of securing and enforcing patents, but I never really touched this aspect of IP law. Now, working with Sim and  San, I am actually engaged in a couple of precedent setting patent matters, which includes the Standard Essential Patent litigations going on in the mobile handset sphere. Suddenly, after eight years of working with trade marks, copyrights, designs and geographical indications, I have discovered that patent law also interests me, which only adds to my excitement around IP laws in India.

     

    Could you share your experience representing industry leaders in the field of technology?

    The experience has been both challenging and exciting. Technology and IP laws are connected and overlap quite a bit. It is, therefore, a great chance to learn about new technology while applying IP law to the same. It is also quite exciting to know that some of the mobile applications and technology devices that one uses day in and day out, are being back-ended by your team from a legal perspective.

    It is also very nice interacting with tech leaders. One of the biggest advantages with working with technology and industry leaders is that you get to learn a lot of new things about IP and technology law and the application of existing law to new fields of technology. Since the technology leaders I was fortunate enough to work with were always looking to push boundaries, applying existing law was extremely exciting and challenging. The other aspect which I really liked was the fact that the technology industry leaders I worked with, had a fresh and dynamic approach to their work and product. Such an approach made it extremely fun working with them.   

     

    How has your experience as visiting faculty at Symbiosis, Noida, been?

    I quite enjoy the experience of being a visiting faculty. After a few years in practice, I was actually looking for a way in which I could give back to my law school. So when I heard that Symbiosis Law School was opening a campus in Noida, and that Dr. C.J. Rawandale was going to be the Director, I got in touch with Rawandale Sir (who was one of the Professors I interacted with a lot during my college days). Sir was immediately keen that I start taking IP classes for the students. Eventually, it also extended to me taking a few classes on Information Technology law as well.

    Being on the other side of the fence, has been an interesting ride. I found it quite amusing that I was, while teaching, asking students to keep quiet, when a few years back I was also probably doing the same very thing. That aside, I learnt, after taking a couple of classes, that teaching is a very challenging profession. It requires a lot of dedication and focus. Teaching at Symbiosis, Noida made me read a lot more because I wanted to keep myself updated on the latest developments in IP law. This, of course, helped me immensely at work as well.

    Also, I learnt being patient and became a better listener, while taking classes. This has also helped me greatly at work, especially when dealing with a difficult client or where I was required to understand client’s requirements before offering advice. That way, teaching has helped me immensely, both as a professional and as a person.

    The other aspect of teaching that I have really benefitted from, is that I got to know some of the students really well, through interactions inside and outside class. This has helped me get good junior associates and interns whenever I have had such a requirement. Plus, some of these students have also become good friends of mine.     

     

    What motivated you to join an emerging Firm, Sim and San, after working in two tier-1 IP firms?

    I just wanted a new and different challenge. Working with K&S Partners and Saikrishna & Associates, two tier-1 IP Firms, provided me with a fantastic foundation in most aspects of IP law. I consider myself extremely fortunate to have worked with these two firms and, that too, with some fantastic lawyers. But I felt that my professional career needed something new. I wanted to feel challenged once again in my professional career and not get comfortable in what I was doing.

    After working at these two offices, I was sure that I did not want to work, at this moment, with a large set-up. I wanted to take a step-back and join a smaller emerging office, where the scope of work is wider and, therefore, a greater opportunity for me to grow as a professional. A very dear friend of mine connected me with Sim and San, Attorneys at Law. He told me of some of the work that Sim and San are doing, which included being involved in some of India’s biggest patent, GI and trade mark matters. I immediately felt that this could be a good match. Thereafter, I met Mohit and Sidhant Goel, Partners at the firm, and we immediately connected. It was very easy to say yes to the offer.

    There is, of course, a big difference in working with a large firm and a smaller firm. The dynamics, work environment and set-up are different, which I found really nice. It felt really nice to work with a small, motivated and young team, who all think on the same wave length and want the same thing as well. It also felt nice to enter an environment where, after a long time, I felt the focus was only on work and not on other stuff. Somewhere, I felt that I needed to make a big change in my professional life, so that my career could advance. I can say that, three months into my new adventure, I am very happy to have taken a leap of faith.

     

    What are some of the benefits and advantages with working with an emerging firm?  

    Today, there are so many emerging firms who claim to be experts in IP law. Choosing a good firm, therefore, is very important. The biggest advantage with a smaller firm is that it provides a tremendous space to express oneself as a professional, thereby offering a bigger opportunity to make a name and reputation. I personally feel that in a smaller firm, there is a greater scope of getting yourself known as a good lawyer.

    In a smaller firm, there is a greater chance of doing everything, as opposed to working in a larger firm that has clear and distinct verticals. I find that as a young lawyer or for someone looking for something fresh (as was my case), working in an environment where everyone does everything offers a greater challenge and scope for learning. I do feel a great opportunity exists to become a good and effective well-rounded lawyer.

    Also, with a smaller firm, the management is usually extremely motivated to establish  a firm foothold in the market and tend to look at problem from a different angle. Plus, there is a determined  effort to be a little different from established firms. This is something that personally appeals to me. Put simply, there is a greater opportunity to become a big fish in a small pond, as opposed to a small fish in a big pond.

     

    What is the experience of being a member of the Emerging Issues Committee of the International Trademark Association (INTA)?

    I am currently a member of the INTA’s Committee on Emerging Issues for the term 2016-2017. Within this Committee, there are various Sub-Committees. The Sub-Committee that I am involved with is looking contributory infringement of intermediaries from a trade mark law perspective.

    The experience in working in such a Committee (including the Sub-Committee) is really nice. I get the opportunity to interact, in depth, with fellow members, who represent firms and companies from around the world. For example, my current Sub-Committee consists of lawyers (in-house and practising) from all five continents. It is a great way to know and understand the development of law (and indeed precedents) that deal with the focus area of the Sub-Committee. I also get the opportunity to explain to my fellow members the state of law in India and the emerging trends, precedents and developments.

    In terms of being a member with organizations like INTA, AIPPI etc., there are quite a few benefits. It obviously affords a fantastic platform to network and build contacts in countries around the world. It also helps in developing mutually beneficial professional relationships between firms. Also, the annual meetings (and other conferences) of these organizations provides a great setting to meet existing clients, cultivate new clients and, also, to meet and catch up with professionals and friends from around the world. Plus, there is a lot of knowledge sharing that happens, which is very useful as a professional.  

     

    What are your interests outside of law?

    Outside of my work, I am a fanatical supporter of Manchester United. I have been so since about 1996. Subject to my work requirements, I try my level best to catch all their games. There have been times where I have compromised on my sleep to try and catch a later kick-off and be at work early next day!

    I also play the sport of Ultimate Frisbee, an American sport, which is one of the fastest growing sports in India. I represent the Delhi Ultimate team. As part of my love for this sport, I am also one of the legal advisors to the Ultimate Players Association of India.

    I also enjoy listening to music, especially blues and jazz, and love travelling.

     

    Finally, what parting advice would you give to our readers considering most of them are young lawyers or law students?

    As parting advice, I would say that becoming a good lawyer is like a test match and not a T20. Given that there are so many avenues of law and varied professional and employment opportunities, choosing the right one is vital. Sometimes, identifying your core/ niche area takes time. The right way, in my opinion, is to be guided by the quality of work and not the salary. It is very easy for a law student or a young lawyer to get swayed by the pay package being thrown their way. Sometimes, the work offered (with the large pay package) works out, sometimes it doesn’t. What should matter is the work and work only. Money will follow if you are enjoying the work.  


     

  • Abir Dey, Counsel, Cyril Amarchand Mangaldas, on being a topper, his experience in litigation and corporate law, and plans for the future

    Abir Dey, Counsel, Cyril Amarchand Mangaldas, on being a topper, his experience in litigation and corporate law, and plans for the future

    Abir Dey is a graduate from Symbiosis International University, Pune, batch of 2006. He is currently working at Cyril Amarchand Mangaldas, Mumbai, as part of the Project Finance team. His core strengths are in Project Finance, Projects and Infrastructure, Banking and Finance and Corporate Advisory matters. In his legal experience, spanning more than a decade, he has structured,negotiated and drafted financing and security documents, ECB facility agreements, debenture and bond documents, master restructuring agreements, investment agreements, EPC contracts, concession agreements and various project documents, opinions, memos and notes for banks and financial institutions across sectors such as power, transmission, road, port, oil & gas, renewable energy, IT, telecommunication, real estate, and hospitality. He has also conducted diligence on corporate structure, regulatory approval and project documents for various projects.

    In this interview he speaks to us about:

    • His time in Symbiosis Law School
    • Being a university level topper, and its benefits
    • His experience in litigation and corporate law

     

    How did you decide to become a lawyer?

    I am one of the fortunate individuals who come from a family of lawyers and therefore Law was something apparent to me since I was in school. If not the legal profession then I guess I would have ended up in the hospitality industry as my other interests revolve around travel and food.

     

    Tell us about your college life.

    I joined Symbiosis Law College in 2001, leaving my hometown for the first time after completing school. It was tough to get accustomed to the new environment. It took me some time to make new friends. SLC, back then, used to be located at Senapati Bapat Road in a smaller campus, with no hostel facilities. I used to share a small apartment with two of my batchmates near college. During my SLC days I had a blast, the city which at that point was just started growing, and had the typical charm of a small town and a city with lots and lots of students, roaming around. The lack of hostels meant we weren’t ragged much, but then it also took time to build a rapport with the seniors, which was possibly only during moot courts and seminars. Coming back to my professional choices, had I carried on in Kolkata, chances are I would have ended up being a litigator, much like other lawyers in my family. My stay at SLC has given me the strength to live without family and also provided me with a huge network of seniors and friends who have played an important role in my career progress.

    What are the subjects that interested you in law school?

    I used to like Constitution and Administrative Laws. Internships were very tough to get those days and our placement cell had just been formed. Therefore whatever internships I got with the help of seniors and batchmates I took those opportunities. Most of the time I did research work as intern and involvement in transaction was very less. I have done internships in Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore and was fortunate to have interacted with different people and cultures.

    How important are academic credentials in becoming a successful lawyer?

    (Abir topped his batch at Symbiosis and during his diploma from Bharathi Vidhyapeeth University, Pune.)

    While my first rank did help me land a good job, I think what matters more eventually is an analytical bent of mind. I have seen many good advocates, some of them are my peers doing very well in their career but they hardly used to attend classes and pass their exams reading Jhabvala notes. On a personal note, I had never been taught project finance in college and acquired this skill at the workplace. Therefore, in my view, to be a good lawyer it’s not only important to have very good academic credentials but also the sector specific working knowledge.

     

    How did you manage your time and prioritize in excelling at academics and other activities at college?

    Self discipline in any stage of life is important. But it is essentially to each his or her own. I used to plan my work schedule and would tend to focus more over the important chapters to have a better understanding of the law, rather than mugging up the entire syllabus. The fact that I used to focus on specific areas of the curriculum also meant that I had time to pursue my other passions while being in college.

     

    What were the challenges and learning opportunities that you were faced with during your first year as a young lawyer?

    I got a pre­placement offer from Wockhardt. I was confused between a career in litigation and corporate law. However, I accepted their offer in their Mumbai corporate office. It was quite challenging for a new comer in a big city to start a career without any support of family and friends. Also it was tough to get accustomed to an office working environment coming out of college, following a specific dress code and dealing with a new set of people outside your friend circle.

    Having worked on both corporate and litigation matters in your career, how do you address the conventional debate between the two as a career choice?

    Litigation is a completely different field than corporate practise. I would advise the newcomers to decide their career option based on their interest as well as convenience. To build a career in any field someone needs to be very patient, hard working and focused.

     

    Tell us a bit about your work experience at Wockhardt and India Law Services.

    When I joined Wockhardt, that time they were expanding into hospital business. I was involved in various collaboration documentations, due diligence and regulatory compliances. So it was a very good opportunity for me to learn and interact with various professionals from different fields. Thereafter I moved to India Law Services (ILS) and initially I was purely doing general corporate advisory work. With the passage of time I was involved in Project Finance transactions as that was the core practice area of ILS and from then on I got into Project finance related work. ILS at that time was a growing firm and work force was limited and that was the reason junior lawyers were given a lot of responsibilities, including meeting clients and handling majority of the transactional work. I was very fortunate to get involved in very prestigious and complicated transactions. I was also very blessed to get tolerant and accommodating seniors/partners in ILS and that really helped me understand the nuances of Project Finance work.

     

    What does a typical work day look like at Amarchand?

    Working at Cyril Amarchand Mangaldas (CAM) is as exhausting as it is satisfying. Clients have a lot of faith in us and that in turn becomes a responsibility for us to deliver quality and solution oriented results. Quarter ends are like T20s matches and delivery has to be in time bound manner with superior quality. Typically huge amount of money is involved in most of the transactions and most of the time the onus is on us for speedy disposal of complicated transactions. It is hard to spend quality time with family during crunch situations, but with time you learn to manage the situations, even if you are away from your desk, with the help of your colleagues and some ingenuity on your part. As I like travelling, I plan things in advance and make sure that there is no conflict during my travel plans. And while we may be stretched for time, while at work, the one good thing about CAM is the fact that they honour scheduled leaves, as long as it’s thought through and not disruptive to the system and client commitment.

    What are the plans for your future?

    I generally prefer to have short term goals, and right now, my focus is on working on new statutes and regulations impacting the financing transactions and disputes resolutions.

    What parting advice would you like to leave our readers with?

    Keep working hard and I believe whoever keeps working hard with a focus mostly succeeds. It doesn’t matter what law school you go to or what grades you get, your hard work and sincerity help you. Gain proficiency in the subjects that interest you. Build a brand for yourself. To conclude I will reproduce Harvey Specter’s (of Suits fame) quote: “The only time success comes before work is in the dictionary”.

  • V.C. Mathews, Senior Associate, Sujatha Chaudhri IP Attorneys, on studying in London, IP Law, and being a professor

    V.C. Mathews, Senior Associate, Sujatha Chaudhri IP Attorneys, on studying in London, IP Law, and being a professor

    V.C. Mathews graduated from Symbiosis Law School, Pune, batch of 2008. After working with R.K. Dewan & Co. as Associate for two years, he went on to pursue his Master’s Degree from Queen Mary University of London in Intellectual Property Law. Since then he has worked with IP Gurus and Remfry & Sagar. He is currently working in Delhi as a Senior Associate at Sujata Chaudhri IP Attorneys, where his role entails Trade Mark Filing, assignments, drafting responses, appearing for hearings, preparing legal opinions and portfolio management, Copyright filing and legal advise, Preparing and drafting domain name complaints, Criminal Enforcement, etc. He is also Adjunct Professor at Symbiosis Law School.

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • His experience in IP Law
    • His experience in academia
    • Pursuing his masters in England

     

    Was taking up law always a part of your career plan?

    I wasn’t very good at Math or Science. So taking up the arts group was the only option. However, at that time, not many schools offered arts in Kerala. Once I got through one of the schools, I had a look at the various options available with a lot of help from my parents and zeroed in on law.

    What was your experience at Symbiosis Law School like?

    The experience in Symbiosis Law School was holistic. It moulded me as a person and in the way I made some amazing friends in my batch and amongst my seniors who till date I am in touch with and meet often. Sports and Moot courts and client counselling were the activities I was involved with in college.

    How did you go about developing an interest in Intellectual Property Rights?

    During the course of our vacations between semesters I used to intern at law firms and under individual lawyers. One of those internships exposed me to Intellectual Property Rights. I liked the subject but was not sure as to if I wanted to take it up as my area of speciality. To discover the same, I did a further two internships with a firm specializing in this field. At the end of those internships, I realized that this was the area of law that I wanted to specialize in. Not many wanted to go into this field at that time as most wanted to do corporate law and the more common fields.

     

    Can you recall any experiences during college or your internships that have played a key role in shaping you as a lawyer?

    Law is a profession where you need to have good relationships with others. If you are specializing in one field having good working relationships with others in others fields of law always helps. To this end, I have a good number of close friends with whom I can rely on and fall back on. They are a source of help both personally and professionally to me. I spent five years of college with them and have spent many more years outside college.

    How important is developing the skill of writing according to you?

    Writing is a good skill to develop and have. Additionally, it helps you learn about the new topics you write upon. We don’t pay a lot of importance to writing and therefore, currently, not many students/practitioners have articles published in the numerous journals/ publications  out there.

    There isn’t any one way for one to develop their writing skills. The only way to better it is to actually start writing.  Start with blog posts and then write in depth articles for journals and publications.  A good place to start for students is their own college journals.

    Tell us about your internship experience.

    Working at a law firm is a lot different from what they teach you in college. Internships only gave me a small insight into the world of a full time lawyer. However, when one comes out of college and into a law firm environment, one has to learn and adapt fast. It is a fast paced environment with its own pressures and one must learn how to handle it.

    In your opinion how crucial is your first job in determining your career path?

    My first job gave me the base to forge ahead. It was tough first year and my second year was not easy either. However, what I learnt in those initial two years still stay with me as it moulded me as a professional.

     

    From your own experiences would you recommend that aspiring LLM candidates work after graduation and then pursue an LLM?

    An LLM is one where you actually specialize and go deeper into a subject of law. This must be taken in all seriousness. When I went for my LLM, I found that my batch had an array of people from different countries. But they were all elder to me. In other countries, those who take up masters take it up after a few years of work. This helps them better understand what is being taught as well as the teaching outside India is very unlike how we are taught in colleges here. Therefore, it is always beneficial to work a few years after graduation, figure out what area of law you want to go into and then do a LLM in that field.

    Tell us about the nature of your work and your experiences working at IP firms.

    (He has worked with Remfry & Co. and presently holds the position of Senior Associate at Sujata Chaudhri IP Attorneys, formerly known as IP Gurus)

    On a single day you could handle a lot of matters in an IP firm, each with its own deadlines and complexities. Many of the issues we deal with have real world implications and must be looked at with the larger commercial picture in mind. It is important, therefore, to find a middle ground between the law and the commercial aspect for clients. This offers many challenges. Additionally, IP law in India is still developing which gives rise to lacunae as well as interpretations to legal concepts. As I handle anti-counterfeiting, it has its own difficulties with the police also being involved. Having to work with them is also a challenge.

     

    Has academia always been of interest to you?

    I am an accidental professor. I never knew I could teach till I was asked to by a former professor. The role is very different from the one that at a law firm, but just as challenging. Being a practitioner helps as my experiences help in holding the attention of the students. Additionally, my classes are more tuned towards the practical teaching of law rather than just the theoretical which has worked with the students.

     

    As a parting note, what advice would you like to leave our readers with, who are mostly budding lawyers?

    There are a number of lawyers coming out each year. In such an environment, one has to ensure that he is different to others. Sitting and looking at resumes I look for the one candidate who has something extra to offer. This is a hard thing to do. However, the need of the hour is that one needs to mould himself to be different from the others. Internships, writing of articles, etc. all help in this regard.

     

  • Dhruv Paul, Senior Associate, Watson Farley & Williams, on studying in ILS, practising internationally and pursuing a niche field of law

    Dhruv Paul, Senior Associate, Watson Farley & Williams, on studying in ILS, practising internationally and pursuing a niche field of law

    Dhruv Paul is a graduate from ILS Law College, Pune, batch of 2008. He is currently Senior Associate in the Corporate and Aviation Groups of Watson Farley & Williams. Based out of the Dubai office, he advises clients on a wide range of largely cross-border transactions. Prior to Watson Farley & Williams he worked in the Dubai office of Clyde & Co. and before that in the New Delhi office of Trilegal. His area of expertise includes acting for global and regional conglomerates, financial institutions and high net-worth individuals on acquisitions, divestment and incorporated & unincorporated joint venture transactions, and corporate matters, across the MENA region and India. He also advises clients in the aviation sector, where he represents financiers, airlines, owners and operators on the finance, lease, sale and purchase, and operation & management of business jets and commercial aircraft.

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • His time at ILS Law School, Pune
    • His experience working in Dubai and the difference in work culture
    • Specialising in niche areas of law

     

    How would you describe your time at ILS?

    I had five wonderful years in ILS Law College, Pune. It was my privilege to study amongst some of the most talented and ambitious people that I know. My batch mates as well as senior and junior colleagues were always working on moot courts, legal research and writing, sports and drama, volunteer work, and of course lots of internships!  I think we all pushed each other to strive for success, while not forgetting to have our fair share of fun, building life-long friendships and memories.

     

    Why did you decide to take up a BSL course as opposed to a B.A. or BBA LL.B. course prior to your LL.B. degree?

    As a youngster just out of school, I was not 100% certain about becoming a lawyer. The BSL LL.B. course of ILS Law College allows you to graduate in three years with a B.A. equivalent degree which qualifies you as a graduate to pursue anything else.  I thought this was a very useful feature to hedge my bets, just in case I didn’t like law school, etc. (of course in retrospect, I didn’t elect to opt out but it was good to know that I had an option without needing to spend two more years studying in futility).

     

    Did you have a mentor or guide during the formative years of your career?

    Yes, I had one or two seniors in college (who eventually graduated while I was still in college) who were of great help in terms of initial career planning. I have tried to build similar relationships with colleagues in each of the organizations that I have worked in. I still use some of them as a sounding board. I think a mentor/guide can add real value at certain junctures, by adding perspective and sharing experience. A mentor or guide can give you useful insight based on their own experience, and in a field where information dissemination is far from ideal, this is a useful tool. That said, I think it is equally important to have conviction in oneself and back yourself to make the right moves.

     

    Having worked in both India and Dubai, what is the difference you see in the work culture and environment?

    The key difference is that Dubai is an international financial centre and a significant cultural melting pot, whereas India is more uniform. The work culture and environment in Dubai is influenced by its richly diverse stakeholders whereas (in a strictly work culture and environment sense), India is pretty one-dimensional.

    In terms of my colleagues and counterparts in Dubai I regularly work with a diverse cross-section of lawyers qualified in England, Canada, Egypt, New Zealand, Singapore, Lebanon, New York, etc. Each of them approach matters in a slightly different way and offer different perspectives based on their experience and training. It is always an interesting and enriching exercise to work with such a diverse group, and to generally discuss the world-at-large with people with different perspectives.

    The client base also consists of a wide range of global, regional and local players, each represented by individuals belonging to different cultures and trained in different styles. There is always a challenge around the corner in how to deal with a specific situation. Even in terms of the actual work, transactions often involve two or more jurisdictions and could be inbound or outbound in across the region and beyond. Juxtapose this against a colleague pool of largely Indian qualified lawyers, practising Indian law in a largely inbound or domestic transaction environment, for largely Indian (or a few expat) client representatives.

     

    What prompted you to shift from working at a prominent Indian law firm to an international one?

    A key reason to shift was to experience the sort of diversity that I have described in my answer above. In addition, I was attracted to work in a large international firm with a wide network that would expose me to a best-in-class practice management, learning and development programme, precedent bank, etc. I also wanted to work in a team that acts as international transaction counsel, as opposed to correspondent local counsel. (I should add that my only experience in an Indian firm was at Trilegal, which fares quite well on most of these parameters in any case).

    My stint in international firms has improved my transaction management efficiency. It has helped me develop an intuitive and proactive (rather than reactive) approach to running transactions. I am encouraged to think commercially and practically in order to get the deal done and achieve the parties’ objectives, while of course remaining within legally acceptable parameters. Of course, working with governing laws that have well settled principles (e.g., English law) or with flexible and investor friendly jurisdictions (e.g., the Cayman Islands and the British Virgin Islands), helps this learning process.

    Tell us a bit about your experience at Trilegal for over five years.

    I joined straight out of law college, completely taken up by the novelty of a BlackBerry, a decent regular income, a plush office and the other bells and whistles. The ‘good life’ feeling was quite swiftly replaced by being hit with a wall of learning and development requirements. The next few years can be classified as a mix of a steep learning curve with long hours at the desk, punctuated by much needed (but all too short) breaks, holidays, retreats and bonus/increments. I received excellent training, and it was my privilege to work in Trilegal during its breakout phase in which it broke into India’s tier I market and metamorphosed from a promising start-up into prominent national player. I left with a sound set of lawyering skills and good relationships with seniors, peers and juniors. I couldn’t have asked for more.

     

    How did you come to develop expertise in niche areas of law, such as aviation and cross-border transaction?

    Having got through the initial slog of adjusting to working life, learning critical job skills and legal principles, and working on delivering projects and transactions; I assessed where I had reached and what I wanted to do next. I realised that there were a fair number of general corporate lawyers like me in the firm that I worked in and in each of the other firms that I could see myself working in. I then decided to try finding ways to differentiate myself. At the same time, I was inclined towards working in an international firm for the type of reasons that we have already seen above. At this stage, I came across a role that would provide me with some exposure to the aviation sector. My research suggested that this is a high growth sector in the Middle East and India. All of these factors, couple with my fascination for aircraft – the decision was made.

     

    If you could condense your career graph, how would you do it?

    In the initial stage, the challenges were around job/skill gap. I don’t think this was limited to me, most of my peers agree that our law training barely gives you the type of skills you need to succeed in transactional private practice roles. Even though I did a number of internships while in law school, most of my learning was ‘on-the-job’. Once I got comfortable in my (then) current position, I decided to shift gears by taking up a role in a different jurisdiction with an unfamiliar sector specialisation, in a different city and within a different category of firms. Looking forward, I guess I would like to continue developing my career, during a period which may see liberalization of the Indian legal sector, tech disruptions, macro-economic challenges, and the rest!

     

    What advice would you give the upcoming generation of lawyers?

    Pick up as many practical skills as you can while still in college/law school, but don’t forget to have fun! Learning a bit of coding might be the next differentiator.

     

  • Shivam Kumar Bimal, Senior Tax Consultant, Deloitte Tax, on studying in the US and practising internationally

    Shivam Kumar Bimal, Senior Tax Consultant, Deloitte Tax, on studying in the US and practising internationally

    Shivam Kumar Bimal is a graduate from Symbiosis Law School, Pune, batch of 2010. He currently serves as an employment tax, employee benefits and executive compensation attorney with Deloitte Tax LLP in the Greater New York area.  He is licensed to practise law in India as well as in the jurisdiction of New York State. While at law school, he was involved in several extra-curricular activities.  After finishing his undergraduate studies, Shivam worked as a law clerk for a year under Justice Surinder Singh Nijjar (now retired) at the Supreme Court of India.  In 2011, he moved to the U.S. to pursue his LL.M. from the prestigious George Washington University Law School and was awarded the reputed Thomas Beurgenthal Scholarship.  After the completion of his LL.M., he worked with a litigation tax law firm in Washington D.C. for three years before moving on to assume his present designation at Deloitte.

    In this interview, we talk to him about:

    • Studying at George Washington University and bagging a scholarship
    • Working with the distinguished tax team at Deloitte
    • Prerequisites for a role in international tax practice

     

    What do your current job responsibilities entail?

    My present job position is both challenging and exciting, as it provides me with many opportunities to learn.  My responsibilities include advising and representing corporate clients before the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and state taxing authorities for tax audits and/or employment tax-related issues.  I also advise clients on issues related to qualified and non-qualified retirement plans, health and welfare benefits, executive compensation, and deferred compensation plan arrangements.  I have also advised clients on issues related to Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) and Common Reporting Standard (CRS) under OECD.

    What, according to you, is the most important part about law school?

    Grades are by far the most important factor for law students.  When I was in law school, we only had semester end exams and it was easy to achieve high grades compared to the current CPGA system.  The new CGPA curriculum is more competitive and demands greater attention and hard work from students.  In my opinion, good grades will play a vital role initially to get you a first job.  That being said, publications, moot courts and other extracurricular activities are also important.  Drafting articles for publications and participating in moot court competitions provide a platform to improve research, drafting and oratory skills.  I personally feel that publications and being a part of law review helped me be a better lawyer.

     

    How would you describe your experience of having worked as a law clerk under the tutelage of a reputed Supreme Court judge?

    After my graduation from Symbiosis Law School in 2010, I worked with Justice Nijjar for over a year.  It was one of the most challenging and enriching moments for me.  Assisting a Supreme Court Judge is a daunting task for any fresh law graduate.  In India, generally law clerks and judges share a very formal relationship.  However, Justice Nijjar was an exception.  He was friendly, thoughtful and always shared his experiences with his law clerks.

    I remember working several late nights and weekends to prepare draft judgments, briefs on SLPs and other ongoing matters.  I consider myself fortunate to contribute, in my small capacity, to numerous landmark judgments written by him, particularly, Iridium India Telecom Ltd. v. Motorola.  I still share a very close relationship with Justice Nijjar and am grateful for all his help and mentorship.

     

    How did you decide on pursuing an LLM from the George Washington University Law School?

    I remember my conversation with Justice Nijjar where he described how studying in the UK shaped his career.  I had applied to top universities in the UK and the US and was fortunate to receive acceptance from almost all the universities which I applied to.  I decided to attend GW for its high academic calibre as well as the fact that GW offered me the Thomas Buergenthal scholarship, which covered my full tuition.  Moreover, GW is based in the heart of Washington, DC and would provide me with access to many great networking opportunities.

    At GW, I specialized in Business and Finance and was required to take 24 credits including a thesis or research paper.  The courses I took included US law courses like federal tax, international tax, corporations, securities law, antitrust law etc., as well as skilled based class like international negotiations.

     

    How can higher education in the US be distinguished from that in India?

    I had a great time at GW and I am grateful to all my professors and peers.  We had students from 62 different countries.  Sharing my ideas and engaging in thoughtful debate with some of the best legal brains from around the world was an unmatched experience. It was also a unique cultural exchange with fellow peers.  The fact that GW professors are all experts in their fields, either as judges, renowned academics, or leading attorneys in reputed law schools, allowed them to pass on applied lessons grounded in real-world experiences.  This was one area which I really benefited from.

    In India, generally, we were taught what happened in a particular case where as in the US, we were taught why and how it happened in a particular case.  Basically, law schools in the US try to develop analytical thinking skills in students.  Attaining LL.Ms from Indian universities is not a popular choice amongst students, unless they want to get into academia whereas in the US, students opt for an LL.M if they want to specialize in a particular field.

     

    How did you decide on your courses?

    I had taken many core US law courses like US Securities law, corporations, and US federal tax, etc.  I wanted to gain as much exposure as I could on US laws.  I wanted to utilize my experiences and knowledge on US law as well as Indian law after my graduation from GW.  I particularly liked tax law because it was challenging, technical and was required for every corporate transaction.

     

    How did you win the scholarship?

    The Scholarship is awarded in the name of an International Court Justice, Thomas Beurgenthal (now retired).  It is awarded to foreign LL.M students in the form of full or partial tuition waiver on the basis of academic merit and financial need. To apply one has to submit his/her resume along with a 500 word letter to prove yourself worthy of a scholarship.  They also require a statement of purpose and letters of recommendation.

     

    What extra-curricular/co-curricular activities were you part of while at law school?

    Extracurricular activities are extremely important as it’s an opportunity to develop skills necessary to succeed as an attorney as well as an opportunity to enrich one’s resume, which is an important element when applying to LL.M programs. Some of the extra-curricular activities which I participated in include an essay competition titled “Women’s participation at the grassroots level”, in which our team was awarded the first prize of INR 50,000.  Further, I represented my law school in a client counselling competition, successfully completed numerous projects sponsored by the UN.  I also was an editor of the law review and headed the legal aid cell at law school.  Moreover, some of my articles were published in law firms’ archives and NGO yearbooks.   While pursuing my LL.M at GW, I was elected to be the President of the LL.M Student Association.

    In order to pursue an LL.M from a tier one law school, one needs to conduct proper planning.  Apart from grades, top universities look at your extracurricular activities.  Securing a scholarship from any university is never easy and one needs to have an exceptional resume.  Remember, it is not a matter of selection, but rather a matter of rejection. They reject all until they get their desired selected candidates.

     

    How big of a difference does an Ivy League institution make?

    Obviously Ivy League law schools are extremely prestigious and can open many doors. However, many people have this notion that getting an LL.M from an Ivy League guarantees you a job abroad, which is false.  Another misconception is that attending an Ivy League school will provide you with the best education available. However, one must take into account the specialization that they want to acquire.  For example, someone who wants to do an LL.M in Intellectual Property (IP) may choose Stanford or GW, which are not Ivy League schools but are better ranked in that specialization.

     

    Tell us about your experience working in the US.

    Apart from my internships, my work experience in India was limited to my time clerking for Justice Nijjar, which was a very demanding role. Similarly, in the US, I found that attorneys are also given demanding work which calls for long hours.  Generally speaking, I find the nature of work between US and India to be different.  In the US, attorneys have more client based exposure than in India, especially at the early stages of one’s career.  Also, in the US, attorneys are expected to draft all legal documents in a crisp and concise manner.  While this was important in India as well, it was less emphasized than in my positions in the US.

     

    What do you think about the future of international tax practice?

    Nowadays, it is very common to have corporate transactions involving multiple jurisdictions and corresponding tax implications.  Therefore, it is actually a boon for someone who is a qualified lawyer in multiple jurisdictions.  If you can interpret tax laws of multiple jurisdictions then you are an asset for any organization you work with.  However, it is a niche field where you need a plethora of experience to gain expertise.

    I would advise young lawyers to start with an internship and to ascertain whether you are a good fit or not.  I believe a couple of law firms in India have a good international law practice.  Keeping an eye on international transactions through journals is also a good way to keep yourself updated.  You can also go for higher studies if you want to practise globally.

     

    Would you like to leave a final message for all our anxious student readers?

    Do not stress out, law school is challenging but fun. Internships will be important to gain practical knowledge and to ascertain what kind of law you would like to practice after graduation.  Apart from aiming for good grades, participate in extracurricular activities and give back to society in any capacity, for eg. pro-bono work.  Remember, a lawyer never stops learning until he/she retires.  Lastly, do not forget to make memories.  Cheers!