Super Lawyer

Tag: Featured Insights

  • Krishnava Dutt, Managing Partner, Argus Partners, on working at ICICI, AMSS, and his experience

    Krishnava Dutt, Managing Partner, Argus Partners, on working at ICICI, AMSS, and his experience

    Krishnava graduated from Symbiosis International University, batch of 1999, with a degree in BSL LLB. Krishnava started his legal career in the Calcutta High Court where he practiced civil law. After a short stint at the High Court, he joined ICICI Bank in Mumbai where he gained several years of experience in handling transactions in the stressed assets space and international banking sector. He joined Amarchand & Mangaldas & Suresh A. Shroff & Co. in 2005 and became the partner in charge of the eastern operations of the firm in the year 2007. He retired from Amarchand & Mangaldas & Suresh A. Shroff & Co. as a partner in June of 2009. Krishnava is currently the Managing Partner of Argus Partners.

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • Pursuing a BSL LLB degree
    • His experience spanning time in court, the banking sector, and law firms
    • Being Partner

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    I am very fortunate to be a part of this profession and am extremely passionate about the subject of law. I am grateful for having seniors, peers and juniors from whom I have constantly learnt and continue to learn. I feel blessed because even after almost two decades, I absolutely love what I do.

     

    Do you feel that there is a divide between NLU and Non-NLU students?

    I personally did not find any difference. In my first job at ICICI Limited (as it then was), I had a large number of NLSIU almuni colleagues, some of whom are still my closest friends.

    One’s own career trajectory is based entirely on one’s own capabilities. While law school/college may help you find initial space in the ecosystem, the future and destiny of your career lies entirely in your own hands.

     

    What is unique about the B.S.L. course that you undertook and how did it contribute to your career in law?

    Law and society are really two sides of the same coin, intertwined and interdependent. One of the subjects I remember fondly is legal history and evolution of law against the backdrop of a dynamic society.

     

    What, in your opinion, is the level of importance that needs to be attached by a student to GPA? 

    Law school scores are the only objective criterion in a CV. Although a higher CGPA is definitely a significant indicator, co-curricular (publications and articles) or extra-curricular activities also play a significant part in shortlisting candidates.

     

    What kind of internships did you engage in during your student years?

    In all my years through college, I only interned at a counsel’s chamber – Mr. Abhrajit Mitra in Kolkata. Without a doubt, my learning there has been invaluable, and still holds me in good stead.

     

    What are your areas of specialisation and how did you go about choosing these fields?

    I straddle largely two practice areas i.e. General Corprate/M&A, as well and Banking & Finance. Having said that, I am also involved with quite a few commercial disputes.

     

    At what stage in one’s law school life must one pick a specialisation? 

    In law school, one’s career is at a nascent stage. Specialisation at that level is something I don’t really encourage. It’s very important for one to go out and learn and then decide their forte. We must be grateful that our profession offers us a boundless universe of knowledge. The initial years must be spent exploring that universe. Unless one has a very strong reason to choose a specialized area of law, one must navigate this labyrinthine world of law to really and truly appreciate any specialisation.

     

    What must the CV of one who is aspiring to land an internship/placement with a top notch corporate firm look like?

    Apart from the CGPA, co-curricular engagements such as articles and publications play a vital role while screening the CVs. Another area which is considered, is the extracurricular activities that one is engaged in, to ascertain a well- rounded development.

     

    Having started off at ICICI Bank, why did you choose to make the transition to a law firm?

    I must mention that the learning I received in ICICI was absolutely unparalleled. However, my transition was purely a personal choice. I wanted to explore areas beyond banking and finance.  Having said that, today, I see extremely bright minds in in-house roles. The last few decades, of course, driven by market dynamics, have created challenging opportunities in the in-house space with an identified trajectory which makes it an attractive career choice.

     

    Give us some insights on the qualities that Tier-I firms look for in prospective candidates.

    (Krishnava has previously worked at Amarchand & Mangaldas, one of the most sought after firms by law students, as Partner.)

    Broadly, the qualities one should demonstrate in an interview are:

    (a) good technical skills. Remember, it is a technical job which you are applying for after finishing five years of gaining technical knowledge. It takes just a few minutes for the interviewer to assess whether you are speaking from knowledge, or you are merely trying to second guess based on logic;

    (b) an analytical mind with a high level of curiosity on the subject. If you are discussing a paper you have written (or a moot or an internship note you have worked on, do demonstrate the breadth and depth of the research that you have undertaken to write/work on the paper/moot/note.

    (c) an ambitious and confident attitude with  a sense of purpose and meaning in what you want to achieve (while demonstrating this quality one must be careful not to be seen as over confident, brash or disrespectful). A word of caution, while a friendly disposition is always welcome, being overfriendly or casual during the interview may be counterproductive.

     

    Tell us about your current association with Argus Partners as a Managing Partner. 

    After resigning from Amarchand Mangaldas, I founded Argus Partners in 2009. In the year 2012 we merged with the firm Udwadia & Udeshi, which upon the merger, changed the name to Udwadia Udeshi & Argus Partners. In 2015, the firm Udwadia Udeshi & Argus partners changed its name to Argus Partners.

     

    Give us a brief capsule of the life of a partner and your average working day experience.

    Because of the young demographic matrix of our country, a partner of a law firm in India also goes through various stages. At a junior partner level, she is the main execution person leading the team and the transaction/matter. The responsibility is not only to the transaction/mater at hand but to also to strengthen the Firm’s relationship with the client. At a senior level the responsibility lies in expansion of the firm’s practice in all areas. This apart, various administrative functions of the firm are also supervised by some partners. At all levels, a partner must be a thought leader with the ability to inspire the next generation. Personally, as a Managing Partner of the firm, my time is divided between client work and various adminstrative matters.

     

    Is there any other suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

    In the age of social media where success and happiness of friends and colleagues are proudly displayed on their respective walls and continuously so, I am reminded of an old Chinese proverb which says, “the biggest source of unhappiness is over estimating the happiness of others”.  The future which will befriend artificial intelligence will also pay a hefty premium for cerebral input, for truly an intelligent mind. And the intelligent mind is the one who picks the nuances and expresses her mind from the depths of knowledge. There is no alternative to knowledge.

    Remember, you are the future and nothing can be more powerful than that. Believe in chasing dreams. Remember, winners are not made overnight, and also remember that success is not a destination but the journey, and a beautiful one at that!

     

  • Karthik Somasundram, Partner, KLaw, on his time at NALSAR, and his diverse experience

    Karthik Somasundram, Partner, KLaw, on his time at NALSAR, and his diverse experience

    Karthik Somasundram graduated in law from NALSAR, Hyderabad, batch of 2004. He currently heads Disputes practice at KLaw’s Mumbai office. Prior to joining K Law, Karthik was a Senior Associate with DSK Legal and prior to that with Paras Kuhad & Associates. Karthik specialises in dispute resolution in corporate, commercial, securities and investment matters.

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • His time at NALSAR
    • His internship experience
    • His role as Partner at KLaw

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    I am litigator by choice. However, I am trained as a disputes and a transactions lawyer. I am a wildlife and photography enthusiast and recently qualified as a deep sea diver. Presently, I head the disputes practice at KLaw’s Mumbai office.

     

    What motivated you to pursue law?

    I am a first generation lawyer. I did not aspire to be a lawyer. I wanted to join the Air Force but I didn’t get around to that. We were in Bangalore when NLSIU was founded. Since then it was my Dad’s desire that my sister and I become lawyers. After my 12th grade I chanced upon a few application forms and a few entrance tests later, it started.

     

    Give us a brief overview of your NALSAR experience for our readers. What is it about NLUs that makes them stand out, as compared to non-NLUs?

    We were the second batch of NALSAR and I only have fantastic memories from our time there. Three of my closest friends are from my time at NALSAR and I have known them for over seventeen years now! Our time at NALSAR was not what it must be like today, I imagine. We stayed in make shift hostels for a year before we moved to the beautiful campus that you can visit today. From the second year we lived on the present campus and for about two to three years there was construction activity all around us. Few of the structures today were not there even when we graduated. However, the best that NALSAR offered was in the form of few of the professors! I think we studied Constitution and Administrative Law from the finest professors at the time. We also interacted with the sitting Judges of the Supreme Court and the Andhra Pradesh High Court at that time. NALSAR opened doors and gave us experiences that (probably) only NLSIU was giving its students, back then. We had access to libraries and resources that few practising lawyers had at that time. Today, everyone has access to these resources and the internet has made everything accessible. When we started, the full potential of the internet was not known, let alone the ability to exploit it. NALSAR gave us an understanding of that potential early on. We participated in international and national moots and the university had the resources to support the students in those endeavours. I think we were the first amongst the law schools to organise a fest (‘Summons’) and students from most of the law universities and colleges participated. It was lot of fun. Lot of impromptu discussions and arguments on different aspects in classrooms— as also during power outages in the evenings during the monsoons. A discussion that has stayed with me was when a junior (practising in the UK now) wondered if he could be ‘stateless by choice’! The world had started to change by 9/11 and we lived the exiting times.

    There are only two things that make the NLUs stand apart from other institutions. The first is the resources to provide opportunities to students and the other is infrastructure. NLUs also benefit largely on account of the human element – professors and lecturers. That is not to suggest that there are no good professors and lecturers in the non-NLUs. A no-brainer analysis will show that most commentaries and authorities are by non-NLU professors and most of the professors and lecturers from the NLUs are students of non-NLU professors. I still remember the week that Late Professor Sathe spent at NALSAR about ten or twelve years ago. I can’t recollect the lectures from back then, but the faculty at NALSAR hung by every word he said and they followed him around everywhere. However, if the non-NLU professors and lecturers are not compensated at industry standards, this too will become another differentiating factor.

     

    What kind of internships did you undertake during your student years? Any memorable ones?

    In my zeal to figure my area of interest, my internships targeted most areas of practise. I have interned with firms and lawyers on the transaction side, litigation, intellectual property and even maritime practice. The time when I interned in the chambers of the then Solicitor General in the Supreme Court, Late Mr. Kirit Raval, is the most memorable one. I was wide-eyed during my entire stint there and therefore contributed little or nothing, I am sure. I was heading into the fifth year I think and I had not yet made up my mind and I remember sitting through all his briefings/conferences in his office in the Supreme Court and I followed him and his chamber juniors everywhere!

     

    In your opinion, what are the law school centric activities that you would recommend as necessary experiences for every law student? 

    From a résumé perspective, I think one needs to experience all the activities on offer to gain experience(s) first hand. Also, if you do not try all the activities or even a few of them, how will you know what interests you? College activities can also help open up many avenues and therefore determining interests, I think, should be the endeavour.

    Having said that, since the entirety of our professional life is spent ‘communicating to convince’ – a client, counter contracting party and their attorneys, judges or even a point of view, I suppose activities that help in enhancing communication skills should be explored. It can be in the form of debates, moot courts, publishing, undertaking field work and research, etc. I started mooting in my third year at NALSAR. It was quite late to start but we did fairly well, I think. It was fun. We won a few and lost many more! Looking back now, those experiences feel like the trailer to the movie that we are experiencing now!

     

    What are your areas of specialisation and how did you go about choosing these field?

    I am a disputes lawyer on the corporate-commercial side. I advise and represent on disputes arising from contractual arrangements, equity investments, lending and borrowing arrangements and securities transactions. I did not plan for this area of practice. I experienced this kind of work along with transactions work and other kinds of litigations and I enjoy this kind of work the most. Hence.

     

    What are the challenges that one needs to prepare himself/herself for when they step out of the comfort of a law school and into the real working world?

    Be prepared to work hard. There is really no shortcut there and no magic potion to make it work otherwise. Experience is the only teacher. Nothing in law school will prepare you for when you become a service provider. So it is only when you start working that you start learning bits that actually matter. Don’t stop because of setbacks and tough bosses. ‘Mistakes’ and ‘learning’ run parallel. If you don’t work, you won’t make mistakes and if you don’t make mistakes, you won’t learn. So don’t stop working or trying because of a mistake or because you are afraid of making other mistakes.  

     

    Give us a brief capsule of the life of a partner and your average working day experience.

    A day usually starts and ends in a similar fashion—planning. The hours in between are when we execute the work/ assignment. As for the ‘brief capsule of the life of a partner’, it is similar to managers in other professions. It involves identifying and meeting client expectation and requirements, identifying the quickest and surest way of achieving it by deploying the right Associate/Senior Associate, etc., taking stock of progress and ensuring delivery. Therefore, it’s a result oriented approach that constantly needs fine-tuning or modification. To stay competitive, enhancement of knowledge is imperative and that is the other area that takes up significant portion of a week, even if not every day.

     

    How are the young partners today different from the ones before them?

    Each year there are thousands of young lawyers entering the profession and that directly results in increase in competition. There are hordes of lawyers catering to different segments and that constitutes the relevant client base. So apart from executing work, we are constantly trying to innovate and develop an edge over the others. The young partners of today specialise in their chosen area of practice and are not multi-disciplinarians like the stalwarts before them. Anand Desai of DSK Legal, Zia of AZB, Berjis Desai of JSA, M. L. Bhakta of Kanga & Co., and M P Barucha of Barucha & Partners, to name a few, are the last of the multi-disciplinarian practitioners. On account of the competition and shorter turnaround timelines, the partners of today are focused on excelling in their chosen area of practice and therefore there is a lot of specialisation.

    Partners today also have ‘financial’ and ‘client acquisition’ targets that they need to meet in addition to servicing the client in the best possible manner. So the young Partners of today are facing more challenges than the ones before them and one needs to be prepared for that. A lot of movement in the legal market at the partner level is on account of these targets and these parameters are here to stay. So it is no longer adequate to be a good lawyer, one also needs to understand the business of operating a law firm as well.

    Karthik with best friends from NALSAR days, Vishnu Dutt, Partner – Bharucha & Partners, Veena Shivaramakrishnan, Partner – Juris Corp, Priyanka Jain Atal, Senior Manager – Firstsource Solutions Limited.


    How important are grades, in your opinion? 

    Grades are important. However, not in the manner of predicting if one is an exceptional lawyer. One may be fantastic in academics but may not be able to master the practical aspect of it and the other way around as well. However, grades are important in the sense of inculcating work ethics and valuing hard work which really is the only way up from being an Associate to a Senior Associate and further up.

    I am not an expert and neither have I studied the workings of the Indian legal education system and therefore, not qualified to comment on it. However, as with any stream of study, an emphasis on understanding and analysis of the subject matter as opposed to knowing it verbatim, can only be positive.  

     

    Is there any other suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

    If someone tells you that money is not important, please run very far away from that person. However, if you had to pick between money and experience, pick the latter always.

  • Ashish Chandra, Former Group General Counsel and Head of Tax, Snapdeal, on being a Company Secretary, and Corporate Lawyer

    Ashish Chandra, Former Group General Counsel and Head of Tax, Snapdeal, on being a Company Secretary, and Corporate Lawyer

    Ashish Chandra graduated in law from Delhi University, batch of 2001. His area of expertise includes eCommerce, mobile payment, telecom, media and technology. Ashish is a qualified Company Secretary and a law graduate from Delhi University. Ashish holds specialized diploma in Cyber (Information Technology) Laws from Indian Law Institute, Delhi and a diploma in Intellectual Property Laws from National Law School, Bangalore.

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • Being a Company Secretary
    • His experience in the E-commerce sector
    • His role at Snapdeal

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    Legal buddy for millennials and a perpetual student of law.

     

    What motivated you to pursue law?

    Becoming a lawyer was not my career goal during high school. Most of my family members are from medical or engineering backgrounds. Being average in science, I decided to pursue commerce. I started my professional education through the Company Secretary course and thereafter law was the obvious choice. While I was graduating as lawyer in 2000, I saw a huge opportunity in technology and internet related laws and I complemented my basic law education with further specialization in technology, internet and IP laws.

     

    Tell us a little about your days in law school.

    I graduated from Law Centre II at Delhi University’s South Campus while undergoing my CS internship and thereafter, a day job. For me, studying law was more practical than academic as I was working in a corporate, so I could clearly relate legal principles into real corporate and personal life. Through this I developed a skill which I term it as LAWBI i.e. Legal Acumen With Business Intelligence. Studying law was also detoxing after a day long hard work.

     

    What are your areas of specialisation, and when/how did you go about choosing these?

    I was graduating as a lawyer and a company secretary in 2000 and took the decision to build my career in corporate, technology, internet and IP laws. The professional journey thereafter has been satisfying. The choice you make should provide a combination of both professional and financial satisfaction. The other important aspect is to have an open mind and ability to change choices depending upon the business and personal circumstances.

     

    How were the first few years after your graduation?

    I have always been an in-house counsel. I saw implementation of law in business and commerce during my law school days. Law school did strengthen my academic roots, but it’s the day-to-day grind and time-to-time taking of risk that provided me the ability to practise law more effectively and meaningfully. This also prepared me to take up critical business roles in my most recent stint.

     

    What kind of internships did you undertake during your student years?

    I was interning in my company secretary course during my law school days. I would advise students and freshers to choose a place that provides ability to put law into real-life practice, and gives you opportunity to dirty your hands. Internship is the best period to learn the basics of working smart.

     

    When did you decide to complete the Company Secretary course and when did you clear the qualification examinations?

    I started my company secretary course right after my commerce graduation at Delhi University. I cleared all my CS examination within two years after my commerce graduation. I started my law graduation after completion of CS exams. I did not want to sail in two boats and wanted to focus on one thing at a time, and also enjoy the life.

     

    What are the benefits that come with combining a CS qualification with an LL.B?

    A combination of CS and LL.B. gives you better understanding and appreciation of corporate and commercial laws. It benefits in all aspects of profession for eg: as an in-house counsel, working for a corporate law firm, or corporate litigation and white collar crime law.

     

    Is it cumbersome to complete both side by side?

    I don’t think so as both complement each other.

     

    From your vast experience in the corporate sector, would you recommend this environment for fresh graduates?

    (Ashish has worked with several corporate giants such as eBay India and Reliance Industries Ltd. in the past, before joining Snapdeal.)

    Well, it’s not whether you start your career in a corporate or you start your career in a law firm or under an independent lawyer. The most important part is what work you do and with whom during the initial part of your career. You need to work at a place which is growing very fast, and where there are more things to do than there are people to do them. During the initial years, you should in-fact do some part of paralegal work including learn the art of properly stapling the papers, quickly taking photo-copies, learning fast typing and taking quick notes.

     

    What does a regular working day look like for you, as Group General Counsel & Head of Taxation of Snapdeal.com?

    When I was the Group GC and Head of Tax, most part of my day used to go in managing my team (internal and external counsels), my peers and my CXOs. Managing people and getting everyone aligned for a common goal in a reasonably safe and stable legal and regulatory environment is the key aspect of any GC. As a GC, you need to evangelize your company’s business, its opportunities and challenges to the external world including industry bodies, government organizations and law enforcement.

     

    If given an opportunity, what would you do differently in your career journey up to this point?

    I regret not working under a good litigator during the early stage of my career. As a rounded lawyer (even in-house), your job is not completed unless you know court processes and how your contracts and advises be argued before a judge or decided by a judge. Never stop updating yourself in your subject matter, always take a global perspective in your legal research, be a patient listener (adopt 80:20 rule i.e. 80% time in listening and 20% time in relevant speaking), and a great orator with good voice modulation and body gestures.

     

    Is there any other suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

    There cannot be a better time to be a lawyer. Analyse your areas of interests and strength, and give your 100%. Lastly, give back to society in whatever form whether time, knowledge, wisdom o wealth. Most importantly, laugh out loud on lawyers’ jokes!

  • Savitha Jagadeesan, Partner, Kochhar & Co., on Intellectual Property Law, and being a Corporate Lawyer

    Savitha Jagadeesan, Partner, Kochhar & Co., on Intellectual Property Law, and being a Corporate Lawyer

    Savitha Jagadeesan graduated from NLSIU, Bangalore, in 1997. Previously she’s held position of Partner at K. R. Chawla & Co., and Khaitan & Partners. She is currently Partner-Intellectual Property Chair at Kochhar & Co. Her expertise includes Transaction and Negotiation, Corporate advisory services. She is passionate about cyber crime and security issues. Further areas of expertise are in corporate law, commercial law, India Investment Strategies, which include providing legal advice on investments abroad by Indian companies, and companies seeking to invest in India, cyber laws and intellectual property law.

    In this interview we speak to her about:

    • Her time at NLSIU
    • Her internship experience
    • Her role at Kochhar & Co.

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    The legal profession is a particularly demanding profession on the time front as well as work front. This was fine for me as long as I was single. However, post marriage and especially after having my boys, I have tried to work as well as do justice on the personal front, something a lot of us grapple with, especially women. I like to look back and reflect that am glad I took on a full family life, yet refused to give up my profession and have been successful in both. I would encourage young lawyers, especially women, that despite the demands of our profession, there are choices we can make that enable us to have a full career as well as family.

     

    What are your areas of specialization?

    I am a general corporate lawyer and have worked on diverse matters, from labour law to infrastructure matters. However, Intellectual Property law and cyber laws are my specialised areas.

     

    How would you describe your time as an undergraduate at NLSIU,Bangalore?

    The five years at NLSIU were personally very enriching. Coming from a conservative background, the diversity on the NLSIU campus truly exposed me to an experience that enabled me to interact with people across the board. Another very crucial experience one gets at NLSIU is the immense confidence you derive through the years, that holds you in good stead across the board. The NLS experience enables you to study various streams of law, exposes you to legal studies, that I feel might not be possible in a routine college. Moreover, the curriculum as well as co-curricular activities create greater avenues for us to explore.

     

    Did you participate in co-curricular activities?

    Yes, I did. Cultural activities and the inter college fests were definitely fun times, especially the NLS had a cultural week which also was great fun and a wonderful experience. I would encourage all to step up and be part of these activities as much as the moot court experience.

     

    How did you select the internships you got yourself engaged with in your student years?

    One of the foremost thoughts I had in mind  was that I wanted a well rounded experience to decide which path I would take upon graduation. Therefore, I chose litigation firms, corporate houses, independent counsel and corporate firms as my learning ladder. I picked big firms and companies as well as small lawyers. The former enabled me to see how the big firm/big company culture worked, and the latter meant I had direct experience on the work I would be required to handle. I would encourage young lawyers to give some thought to  their internships. Especially because they have a lot more opportunities we did.

     

    Could you please give our readers some advice regarding internships?

    I think it’s important to choose diverse paths to understand what we would like to do; the same is in case of internships. I do recommend varied internships for those who are confused. However, if you have decided the city you want to work with and it is a firm/corporate house/NGO, choose those only throughout the years of internship. However I would encourage many to definitely do internships with lawyers and litigation firms, because one of the cornerstones of being a good lawyer is that you should know the procedural aspects of law. In fact, I feel that lawyers should get some litigation experience in their career as it’s a lot easier to identify issues with their corporate work before hand. Now many firms have internships programs, therefore apply early. Choose firms, according to your growth trajectory, speak to your peers, do research on the firms that do provide good, well rounded internships, and of course, as already said, apply early.

     

    What would you like to say about the initial years as a corporate lawyer?

    Loved it. My first experience was with Mulla and Mulla, Craigie Blunt and Caroe and we had to do both litigation and corporate. It was not some air conditioned office, but we all sat in a room, but we had plenty of work, so plenty to do. It was intense, and there was no excuse of how many hours were spent in court, we still had to complete our corporate work and send out reporting letters the same day of the matter.

     

    Would you please enlighten the readers about how you came to choose your fields of specialization and suggest them the proper time to do so?

    This is an era of specialisation and is crucial to one’s growth path. I think it is imperative that through the years as you are dabbling in varied aspects of law, you also look into reading into various specialisations. Depending upon the curriculum if you are exposed to specialisation in courses in the fourth and fifth year, you choose the electives not purely based on interest, but its applicability in the outside world. I would also recommend choosing specialised firms, if you are looking at being specialised. Even though many of us might know what we want, I would recommend experimenting with these courses before you earmark a singular one, so  you do not regret the decisions later on. I would also speak to specialised lawyers to get an insight into the area, choose internships and write articles, this enables and exposes us to the idea, if our interest in these specialised areas is retained. For those unsure, read, research, speak to others. This will enable to get the dialogue going with us on what we would like to do.

     

    Did you have any mentor or inspirational figures along your eventful journey?

    Not really, although, I had excellent bosses who have played crucial roles in moulding me as a lawyer. From my first boss I learnt meticulousness and listening to detail. From my second boss I learnt the importance of working hard and reaching deadlines at all cost and identifying what sets you apart from others. My present stint brought out the business person in me and I realised presentation and branding is equally important, and most importantly your clientele is worked on your work skills and people skills.

     

    When was the time you decided to pursue an LLM?

    This was many years into my profession and the need to pursue the LLM was mainly because I wanted to pursue my Ph.d in India, where the LLM is a  requirement. However, I think there are two crucial junctures you can pursue your LLM; straight from law school (I would recommend doing it in UK and USA) or few years down the line, but only if it adds value to your specialisation.

     

    How would you describe your experience as a partner in a Tier-I company like K.R. Chawla and Co.?

    It was truly a learning experience for me. I was exposed to varied matters especially regulatory matters. Mr. Harvansh Chawla was a wonderful person to work for, as he exposed me to all kinds of work, gave me a free hand on how I executed the work and also encouraged me from all fronts. I think the work that I did here was some of the best in my career and it was here that I also learnt to interact with clients first hand. It was also this experience that enabled me to be an open colleague. By that I mean, for all my colleagues I work with, I give them a free hand on how they want to execute the work, including client interactions. I am but a stickler for timelines and feel that all work should be turned around fast irrespective of client deadlines.

     

    What is your advice to young aspiring interns about the Tier-1 firms?

    Learn, learn, learn. Some internships might be boring. However, if you take an initiative, you will find that many a firm will be willing to be expose you to their daily work and will use you. Don’t take your internships for granted. Work hard at the work you are given, even if research, because there is a chance you will be offered a position there and you might get noticed. Being a lawyer is not just about knowing the law, but also bringing out the confidence in your client. Never fib, if you do not know something check it up and then advice. Research is an imperative part of your learning curve. Write articles and be exposed to changes in the areas of law. And last but not the least, it is imperative that through the years you study the trends in the profession, and your choices are marked by this as your future will be shaped out to be due to these choices.

     

    Did you ever imagine that you would become Partner some day?

    Yes, I knew from the very beginning that I would be part of the law firm culture and I had already envisaged that being a partner was definitely going to be on my bucket list. I think its an aspiration we should all keep, to reach the top, that keeps the adrenaline rushing, and we do not get bored of our profession. Pick challenges in whatever you do, and do not rest with one.

     

    Could you tell us what a typical work day entails for you?

    Well, I do a lot of my business meetings in the first half of the day. We have administrative decisions to be taken which we do through the day.  Most of my day goes in conference calls, meetings and tackling work. My time is divided between intellectual property and corporate queries. I also do a fair bit of business development for the firm and hence, meeting and sitting on committees also takes some time.

     

    How do you stay updated on the latest legal developments?

    I read a lot of judgments and articles. Reading legal books are more when doing opinions. However, I do make it a policy to subscribe to various legal updates that come to me. Recently, with technology, legal Whatsapp groups are in, and this exposes are fairly quickly to the latest law developments.

     

    Lastly, what would be your tips to aspiring lawyers?

    1. Work hard.
    2. Take initiative.
    3. Do court work, you will see a definite difference in your attitude as a lawyer.
    4. Read.
    5. Never say no to any kind of work, more the experience the better the lawyer you will be.
    6. Never say no to a client, even if it is a small matter, take it up and execute it with equal gusto as a big matter, you are in the business of building relationships so every bit counts.
    7. If you are thinking of a company job/NGOs your organisation comes first, never substitute the hard work for the company for anything else. Integrity will always see you a long way.

     

  • Poornima Hatti, Partner-Dispute Resolution, Samvad Partners, on studying in London, her association with the UN, and editing her book

    Poornima Hatti, Partner-Dispute Resolution, Samvad Partners, on studying in London, her association with the UN, and editing her book

    Poornima Hatti graduated from NLSIU, Bangalore, in 2003. She then went on to pursue her Masters in 2005 from London School of Economics. Her repertoire includes associations with the likes of Amarchand Mangaldas and Herbert Smith. She is currently Partner-Dispute Resolution at Samvad Partners. Poornima also has strong expertise as an anti harassment professional particularly in relation to anti sexual harassment issues at the workplace. She sits as an external independent professional on a number of enquiry committees. She is also a trained mediator. She works with various public interest organisations particularly on matters of urban planning and growth on a pro bono basis.

    In this interview we speak to her about:

    • Her time at NLSIU
    • Her experience at Tier-I firms
    • Her pro bono work

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    I would like to believe I am a thinking lawyer who believes that law can bring about change. My practice lies in dispute resolution and in related advisory.

     

    Why did you choose to pursue a degree in law?

    My parents are lawyers, so black robes and AIR manuals were not alien to me. I was therefore extremely aware of law as a profession and the wide ranging work that could be done as a lawyer. Looking back, in 1997, a lot of my peers were also very excited about the prospect of learning law at the National Law School (NLSIU). As I learned more about the institution and the people involved in the new “legal experiment”, I was very interested in getting admission at NLSIU. If I had not gotten through to NLSIU perhaps I would have looked at becoming a doctor.

     

    Give us a brief overview of your life at NLSIU.

    I enjoyed all aspects of my time spent at the NLSIU. I can truly say that I met some amazing and very intelligent people, both in terms of students and faculty, many of whom are now lifelong friends. The institution taught me to write and to think independently and shaped my political and ideological beliefs. For the first time I understood what dissent was and how dissent should be respected. It gave me the confidence to believe in myself and truly allowed me to explore the myriad opportunities a young law student has within her reach.

    I am not sure whether there is a “NLU culture”. Institutions are often shaped by the people who lead them. I know that there are non NLU universities in India where very interesting courses that are being taught and where the environment is truly conducive for a holistic legal education. Every institution should do all it can to be true to its own idea of why it came to be.

     

    What are the subjects that you took particular interest in, during your law school days?

    I was interested in the humanities, particularly in political science. Constitutional law was also very exciting and this led me to look more closely at constitution theory at the London School of Economics where I studied later. I even came back and taught it at NLSIU as a seminar course. At times the subject itself may be appealing and at other times the people who teach a subject can make you very interested in it! I was clear that criminal law was not for me! I was always clear that I would be a disputes lawyer, courts were always more inviting to me. Even today it is difficult to predict how events can unfold in Court, you may be hoping for a dull day, only to be surprised later.

     

    What activities, both academic and non-academic that you engaged in as a law student?

    In a fairly small group of students in a university, you can try your hand at most things and I did! I was not very good at sports and even broke my ankle trying to high jump in my first year, but still won a medal. I did debate, quiz and participated in a number of student bar association activities, primarily the legal services clinic. I was also elected as president of the student bar association in my fourth year and I learnt many things about working with people in this role. I was late to the mooting scene and only did so in my fifth year and participated in the Bar Council Moot and the International Maritime Arbitration Moot in Brisbane.

    I cannot stress how important it is to be involved in non academic activities at your institutions. These activities allow you to engage with your own peers in different contexts and allow you to build skills which will stand you in good stead in whatever path you choose later. You will learn to engage with the “real world” in many ways.

    Even as partners, we do work with Chambers of Commerce and other institutions that interest us or that we are passionate about. I would love for mediation to be used more actively and so I am part of the Centre for Advanced Mediation Practice here in Bangalore.

     

    What kind of internships did you engage in during your student years?

    Almost all my internships were connected with dispute resolution as an area of practice. I interned with non governmental organisations who were involved in litigation, like the Environment Support Group and Human Rights Law Network. I later interned with the National Human Rights Commission, with the then Attorney General’s office and finally clerked with a Supreme Court judge. Each internship taught me valuable skills and perspectives. It also gave me the opportunity to meet with some wonderful people. Looking back, each person I worked with taught me something new in terms of working with people, approaching clients or looking at a solution for a problem. I would say choose your internships carefully and work hard. There is someone always watching.

     

    Would you say higher studies are absolutely essential for a career in law?

    No, an LLM is not essential for a practising lawyer. However, it does give you perspective on theory and practice and it gave me, a more rounded view of the world. During my time in London, I also did some mini pupillages at a few Barristers’ Chambers and this gave me an insight into the working of the law outside of India.

    Which is the ideal time to do an L.L.M?

    I would strongly recommend working for a few years. Personally, I appreciated the class room better, made better use of my time as a student both academically and in terms of peer interaction, as I had learned to value my personal time. One also approaches law differently, after one has seen it being practised. You want to solve a problem, and you think out of the box.

     

    What are your areas of specialisation in law?

    I have always been a disputes lawyer. Today I am a commercial disputes lawyers, although we do undertake a few pro bono matters which are public law matters. As a disputes lawyer, other than the procedural laws that are essential, one learns to look at various issues in the context of different disputes. It could be a projects/infrastructure dispute or a complex shareholders disputes or an intellectual property dispute, most practising dispute lawyers handle all kinds of disputes. Of course there are specialist IP disputes lawyers and maritime lawyers but most disputes lawyers work across the spectrum.

    Every dispute teaches me something new.  My advice to law students would be not to specialise too early. Try and get adequate exposure to as many types of law as possible and then you can choose to specialise. A well rounded lawyer can also be prepared for issues that may arise across practice areas and may not be pigeon holed one way or another.

     

    How were the first few years after your graduation?

    I was fortunate enough to not be surprised by law in terms of the substantive aspects of law when I started working. The practise of the law is a completely different thing, one needs to understand client expectations, time management and one needs to learn a whole lot of people skills along with substantive law. A lot of this is not taught at law school and often internships do not offer real responsibility in terms of communication with all parties involved. As you grow senior, you will realise that people skills will stand you in good stead. Often clients tell me, that they chose to work with people they like and not always because they are fantastic lawyers. To be fair, law schools cannot prepare you for the real world practice, that is where the first few years are important. Young lawyers need to understand where and how they can be trained with rigour and opt for those places to work.

     

    Give us some insights on the qualities that Tier-I firms look for in prospective candidates.

    I think the focus should be for young lawyers to work with good people and where they can be busy. If you wish to work on diverse areas of law or a particular kind of law, then choose accordingly. Importantly, there should be an opportunity to learn and think. In terms of what does a law firm look for in a prospective candidate, I think any good law firm, even we at Samvad, look for a good work ethic and enthusiasm. There is nothing more refreshing than a young lawyer thinking ahead of his senior and adding value to the case at hand. These are things that can be seen in the context of an internship, so again, young lawyers should make the most of their internships.  I have seen this at Amarchand, at Herbert Smith LLP (as it then was) and here at Samvad.

     

    Tell us about your association with the UN.

    (Poornima has worked with the Executive Board of UN women where she has worked on equal pay and other women’s rights issues across the South East Asia region.)

    I was part of the Executive Committee at UNIFEM (now UN Women) in Singapore. As Singapore is a high income country, the group worked on issues relating to women across South East Asia, which included raising awareness of the UN Convention for Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW), working with local non governmental organisations on issues of violence against women, be it in Indonesia or Cambodia. We also focused on ensuring that domestic help/maids employed in Singapore would get a day off during their work week and ensuring that payments were made properly. We even worked on a shadow committee report for the UN as part of Singapore’s CEDAW obligations. UN Women was and is a vibrant and active space where I learnt a lot about women’s right in practice and the tough role that one has to play to achieve them.

     

    Tell us about your role at Samvad Partners.

    While the partnership at Samvad Partners continues to grow, it is still quite close knit and very collegial. While I am primarily based out of Bangalore, as part of my disputes role, I work across offices be in Chennai, Hyderabad, Mumbai or Delhi to ensure that if there is something that needs to be addressed on the dispute resolution front, it is effectively addressed. The average day includes client work (be it meetings, attending hearings, building and strengthening relationships with clients) as well a fair share of administrative work, which could be resolving HR issues, putting new systems in place or just figuring out if we need revamped stationary. It is exciting to be part of  a relatively young and diverse group of partners and to shape strategy and growth of a legal practice together.

     

    How important are grades, in your opinion?

    Call me old fashioned, but I think grades are important. If someone has consistent good grades, it demonstrates a certain level of hard work and knowledge of the law. On the contrary, if there are students with consistent low grades, it would be difficult to explain why that is the case. I believe that Indian legal education has taken a great leap forward in the past decade. There are more people interested in teaching the law and different types of subjects are being taught. The fact that there are so many young people interested in learning the law is itself a pointer that things are moving ahead. I am optimistic about the future.

     

    Tell us a little about the book that you are currently co-editing, on role modelling and mentoring at the workplace.

    A lot of us have often wondered about the lack of positive and focused mentoring in the legal profession, be it at the Bar, at law firms or at law schools. This led to a wider quest and the book was shaped by that. Interestingly, it’s not a law book, although my co-editor Shruti Vidyasagar and I are both lawyers. The book is part of a larger series on leadership at the workplace and is to be published by Palgrave McMillan and should hit the stands by next year.

     

    What is your message to our readers?

    There is no substitute for hard work and enthusiasm. Do both. Read and keep abreast of everything happening around you. Look beyond the law, too often as lawyers we do not look or make friends outside the law, we must. It keeps us balanced and makes us more relevant. You should want to get out of bed and get to work everyday, else its time to rethink what you want to do.

    Many thanks for giving me the opportunity.

  • Sandeep Parekh, Founder-Managing Partner, Finsec Law Advisors, on Securities, working with Harish Salve, and academia

    Sandeep Parekh, Founder-Managing Partner, Finsec Law Advisors, on Securities, working with Harish Salve, and academia

    Sandeep Parekh graduated in law from Delhi University in 1995. He then went on to pursue his Masters in Securities and Financial Regulation in 1997. Since then, he has served as International Associate at Wilmer, Cutler & Pickering, Associate Advocate at Wadia Ghandy & Co., Partner, Securities and Financial Practice Group at P.H. Parekh & Co., and Executive Director at SEBI. He is also visiting faculty at IIM-A. He is currently Founder cum Managing Partner at Finsec Law Advisors.

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • Starting his own firm
    • His experience in Securities Law
    • His passion for teaching

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    I would introduce myself as a securities lawyer who specialised early in my life. My advice to students has always been to focus on education and build a strong foundation, rather than building on experience early in life. You literally have a lifetime to build on experience. But there is limited time for foundational study and really deep research. As a professional there is little time available for doing either and the foundation of basic legal building blocks and deeper research stay with you for a lifetime. Finally, the early work helps in daily work. If one were to tell a client that you don’t know what a contingent contract is, but will look it up, you are unlikely to win the client’s confidence. The advice is even more important for people who turn specialists, as later exposure to constitutional, contract, transfer of property and other basic laws becomes limited.

     

    Is there any specific anecdote that means a lot to you, which you would like to share with our readers?

    My law school days in DU were intense. I was working nearly full time with Mr. Harish Salve from the day I joined law school. I would start the day early, to be in time for a little research before the first conference would start at 8 AM. I am certain I was of little or no use to Mr. Salve for a long period of time, but I learned a lot reading cases for Monday and Friday SLP days at the Supreme Court. There was a lot of fundamental research we did at his chambers and we relied on the best books on the subject. This ensured that even in law school I always relied on quality primary, secondary and tertiary sources of information, rather than the shortcuts available to pass exams. Our law school, popularly known as LC-II was an evening course of Delhi University, though as a full time course it had the same contact hours as the day course and classes were taken seriously by both faculty and students. What was unusual was the class age. It was close to 40. Many mid to senior level bureaucrats and police officers were part of the class.

    A fun anecdote relates to a case where Mr. Salve had a prior commitment, but another case went on longer than expected. The briefing lawyer was not ready with the matter as his junior who was familiar with the matter was also stuck in another court. As it happened, I had made detailed notes on the content and research and I fed the advocate the argument virtually line by line. It was intimidating as I was not supposed to sit on the front seats with my black student tie, rather than a gown and a band. But the high was that we won that trademark case and the ruling was even covered in the papers a few days later.

     

    What were the activities, academic or otherwise, that you undertook in your law school days which in your opinion have shaped you and your career?

    The nature of the school meant that the only other activity I did outside of coursework, which I attended to religiously, was moot courts. I was competent primarily because I was doing this in real life ten hours a day seven days a week. Researching, drafting and of course observing the best counsels of the country argue before the highest court of India. I would sometimes spend a few hours on weekends rock climbing before or after work at an Indian Mountaineering Foundation site in Dhaula Kuan, close to Mr. Salve’s office.

     

    Who was your mentor, or main source of inspiration who motivated you all along the way?

    I have had three mentors, one I described above, Mr. Salve. The other was Mr. Arthur Mathews, who was a partner at Wilmer, Cutler and Pickering and taught me a course at Georgetown law. He was also responsible for getting me a position at his firm as an international attorney and then even though I didn’t work with him at Wilmer, he treated me as family and took me out for a baseball game with his family. The last was of course Mr. Damodaran of SEBI, who took me in at a senior position at SEBI at a young age and mentored me. He continues to be a source of support to me and is a great sounding board as well. I must also mention my partner at Wilmer, Brandon Becker, who was a former director at the SEC and a force to reckon with in market regulations. My partner at Wadia Ghandy, Nihar Mody, was also a great person to learn from.

     

    Would you say higher studies are relevant for a career in law?

    This is a tricky question and I assume the answer would differ from person to person. The main reason for me undertaking this particular course was the specialised learning I would get. My LL.M. was in securities and financial regulations and I practically didn’t attend any non-securities course. The other major reason why people undertake an LL.M. is job opportunities. This is true both in India and abroad. So I would say, to each his own, if a degree opens up educational avenues not otherwise available, one should pursue higher studies. Similarly, if a degree opens jobs, one should use it to open that market, though both domestically and internationally, it has limited use for that purpose. Often it is both reasons. The advantage of a foreign education is that it opens global doors to both education and to jobs, though is quite expensive by comparison.

     

    What does the CV of a student seeking admission in a premier university offering an LL.M. program have to look like?

    I was a part of the admissions committee at Georgetown Law and thus got substantial exposure to this, having reviewed hundreds of applications. The criteria run into objective and subjective ones. In the objective ones are grades, publications and any public positions held at the college or law college. Subjective ones are those which can easily be padded and inflated and are therefore of a lesser value in an international evaluator’s mind. But a skilled student would back it up with evidence and make this also a strong suite. Say a passion for right to information backed by papers and actual usage for public good would help a student’s cause immensely. Usually some inflation of your background is tolerated, but lying is not. To say you topped the university when you did not, would pollute the believability of the rest of your application.

    An LL.M. abroad would be best after at least a year or two of practice because many areas of procedure and evidence which are best understood in court or in corporate practice make LL.M. courses easier to grasp. Experience is also very useful in case you choose to appear for the New York or California bars.

     

    What was the experience of working with Mr. Harish Salve like?

    I think Harish Salve is just an incredible force of nature in terms of intellectual firepower. His brilliance is matched by his hard work, I recall he would wake up around 5  5:30 AM and read and research thoroughly before a conference. As a result many of his conferences lasted seconds rather than minutes or hours. He urged me to read Seervai and Palkhivala from cover to cover and often course corrected me when I went off course.

    Can you tell us about your tryst with academia?

    I have been teaching at IIM-A for the past sixteen years as a visiting faculty and have tremendously enjoyed teaching all these years. After SEBI, I had joined as a full time faculty because of my rather sensitive job at SEBI as head of legal affairs and enforcement. The chance of conflict was very high if I had started practicing immediately after my regulatory role and there was also a chance of inadvertent conflict since my signature would be on thousands of files. At IIM-A however, I did many interesting consulting tasks like being a plaintiff’s lawyer at New York courts in the infamous Satyam matter.

    What or who motivated you to take the leap of faith and start Finsec Law Advisors?

    There seemed few good options in terms of a professional set up in top Indian law firms with the legacy issues which we are all aware of. Instead of joining a mid-tier firm, I thought of starting a small, high quality top tier law firm. We continue to have a quality focus and have no growth plans or plans to diversify into other areas. We dominate the securities regulatory domain and would like to believe we have no competitors in the field in which we operate. We believe in spending a quarter of our time on public policy and intellectual pursuits. Our firm has three books to its credit in the past few years, we run newsletters, monthly dialogue series, an annual roundtable, we routinely respond to regulatory comment papers. Our advice has been sought formally and informally by several regulators and parliamentary committees. I sit on most industry committees relating to financial markets viz. CII, Ficci, Assocham BCCI, IMC etc. These pursuits make our task interesting and worthwhile. Work without a purpose becomes uninteresting after a few years. What we don’t do is lobbying for clients and what we respond to is based on our consistent belief in a better regulatory environment for the country. There is indeed substantial regulatory cholesterol which needs to be reduced. Knowing it exists is the first step in addressing it.

     

    Where do you see yourself ten years from now?

    We don’t have growth targets, we do expect to maintain the same quality as we currently have. We would like to expand into other areas of financial regulatory work where we currently don’t operate. However, we never expect to become a full service law firm as we would rather be the best in what we do instead of being above average in many areas. Interestingly, we are referred a large part of our work from other law firms and also the big four accounting firms.

     

    What is your message to our readers?

    Focus on your education, build your foundation, rely on the best commentary on any subject (including my book!) and read it cover to cover where foundational. You will never have that luxury when you start practicing. Lot of your success will be a result of pure luck, of standing at the right place at the right time. But if you aren’t prepared when the good wind blows, you can’t blame ill luck later. So prepare to let the wind push your back and stand in ready position on the concourse. Work hard in the first two decades of your career and take a path less beaten, even if it is not the most lucrative financially. If work is work, then you will not last long in your current job. Make it fun, fulfilling and bring a purpose to improve the world in whatever small way possible.

     

  • Rajiv Choubey, General Counsel, HCL Infosystems, on the Indian legal regime, Corporate Law, and his experience

    Rajiv Choubey, General Counsel, HCL Infosystems, on the Indian legal regime, Corporate Law, and his experience

    Rajiv Choubey graduated in law from Faculty of Law, University of Delhi, in 1999. He is also a certified Company Secretary. He then went on to pursue his LLM from Kurukshetra University in 2014. Rajiv is an in-house corporate counsel working for the last twenty years in the field of Corporate Laws (having handled M&A, JVs FDI Policy, Foreign Trade Policy, in bound & out bound, Securities Laws, Corporate Governance), Commercial Laws, International Trade Laws, Environment related laws, Electricity related issues, Industrial & Labour Laws, Economic laws-Excise, Service Tax, Customs and Foreign Trade Policy.

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • His diverse experience
    • Corporate Law
    • Pursuing an LLM in India

    What motivated you to pursue law?

    I was born and brought up in Asansol in West Bengal. Honestly, as a kid I wanted to pursue sports and become a footballer. However, that remained an unfulfilled dream since sports wasn’t encouraged or taken seriously back then. I pursued commerce, which was another happy accident. I like commerce as a subject, which exposed me to economics and I developed a liking for the subject. While pursuing B.Com at University of Allahabad, I was introduced to Law of Contract as part of Business Law. A lot of credit goes to our teacher, Prof. Arun Garg, who taught “Contract Act” with a lot of passion and interest. He taught packed classrooms and his students admired him so much, that sometimes we stood at the back of the classroom for lack of space, just to hear his lectures.

     

    Tell us a little about your days in law school.

    The best part of the DU law curriculum is that it is based on case studies. The moment you get admission, as part of admission process they hand over a booklet of case studies. Initially, I could not understand, what kind of booklet is this? Then I understood the system of study, the method of citation. It created immense interest in me and it changed the entire approach to study law. The best way to study and understand law is the case based approach. It was completely different from the Business Law we studied during our graduation day.

     

    What were the activities, academic or otherwise, that you undertook in your law school days which in your opinion have shaped you and your career?

    When I did law, the number of activities were much less when compared to the present day. Further since I was also pursuing CS at the same time, I could not participate in many of extra-curricular activities.

     

    Who was your mentor, or main source of inspiration who motivated you all along the way?

    My teacher at Allahabad University Mr. Arun Garg and former boss Mr.Vinay Shukla (who himself is LLB and CS) and Mr.Vikas Goel (who is CA) always motivated and were sources of inspiration.

    While working with Vedanta, Chairman Mr. Anil Agarwal and Vice-Chairman Mr. Navin Agarwal were great sources of inspiration. In one of my key matters, our Chairman made us believe that we can achieve something which we thought was impossible.  I had the opportunity to work with lots of colleagues at Vedanta and it was fantastic to work with them and handle some of key environmental issues and coming out successful. My current Group CFO, Mr. S.G. Murali is a great source of inspiration, as he leads by example. I am greatly privileged to work with some of great minds.

     

    Are L.L.Ms absolutely necessary for a career in law?

    I do not think so. At the same it is good if one can pursue the same from any foreign university, with specialisation in any particular area (say Competition law, IPR, M&A, etc.) which one ultimately desires to pursue. If someone wants to go into academics, LLM is a must.

     

    What should one expect out of an L.L.M program, if they opt to pursue one?

    I have expressed my views that LLM should be with the sole intention of obtaining specialisation in any particular area. One should always do the cost/purpose – benefit analysis before pursuing any further studies. Doing LLM from a foreign university also provides the global perspective and outlook, which is essential in today’s world, where one may be required to handle clients across the globe.

     

    Why are students only considering universities abroad for an LLM?

    There are good universities in India such as NLS, Bangalore, NALSAR, Delhi University and other National Law Schools. I think one of the reasons students go abroad is because the LLM there is only a year long. Now, even Indian Universities have switched to a one-year curriculum. However, the key reasons for pursuing LLM in foreign universities is that you get specialisation in one particular area, which one would like to pursue. Further, it provides you a global perspective, experience and access to some of best faculties.

    One the issue of Indian legal education system (on LLM Curriculum), I feel Indian Universities need to upgrade their curriculum and focus on specialisation. Currently, it is more inclined towards an academic perspective. Universities can have two branches of LLM, one LLM (Specialisation) and the other LLM (Academic), the former being more inclined towards practice areas and other more inclined towards research and academics.

     

    Which is the ideal time to do an L.L.M?

    I am personally of the view that one should pursue LLM after at least five years of practice, when you feel the need to specialize in a particular area. The initial years of practice will provide clarity in terms of areas of interests, in which one would like specialise. It is like doing MBA after initial years of experience as post work-experience, one can appreciate various facets of management and can link it with their experience.  Ultimately, it is an individual choice as many people find it difficult to pursue LLM once they start working.

     

    From your experience, would you recommend the corporate environment for fresh graduates?

    (Rajiv has worked with several corporate giants such as Vedanta Ltd. and Maruti Suzuki before joining HCL Infosystems Ltd.)

    Career is an individual choice. It also depends what is one liking, strengths. When I started my career, there was no concept of in-house legal counsel and only few MNCs like Hindustan Lever had strong in-house counsels. The role of in-house counsel in other companies was limited to attending courts on behalf of the company. However, the scenario today has completely changed post the 1991 Liberalisation policy. It took almost ten to fifteen years for the role of in-house counsels to shape up and take prominence. India today is an open economy but at the same time has a strong regulatory regime. Today, the exposure of corporates on some of key regulatory issues being faced in the telecom, coal, power, mining and other sectors has increased the scope and role of in-house counsels. I have been a witness to some key environment and mining issues and without the contribution of the in-house counsel/ legal department, it would have been difficult to successfully win the battle in court and clear the regulatory hurdles. Hence the in-house counsels used to ride pillion earlier, but now, they are at the helm of all corporate affairs. Be it advising on contracting, dispute resolution, M&A, structuring transactions, advisory, regulatory issues, or compliance, in-house counsels are playing a major role. Their role is comparable to what the HR Department used to do several years ago. Today HR has moved away from the traditional personnel and administration to more organizational development, strategic utilization of employees to serve business goals, talent management and development. Similarly, in-house counsel is to work closely with the business in terms of advising them on key issues and resolving the same to meet the business objectives and plans of the organisation.

    Fresh graduates can look at working in-house as it offers you a variety of roles and is not limited to only doing a routine job. HCL offers opportunities in all facets of law, contracting, advisory, litigation. The Legal Department is mid-sized law firm, which deals with multiple customers and meets their expectations every day.  Since we are dealing with variety of issues, it is a real challenge in terms of delivery and at the same time upgrade ourselves with the latest of what is happening in law as well as in the industry.

     

    What does a regular working day look like for you, as General Counsel of HCL Infosystems Ltd?

    Prior to taking over as General Counsel of HCL Infosystems Ltd. in June last year, my entire experience was in the manufacturing sector. HCL being into distribution, services and system integration, the issues are completely different. The business model is different, the issues are different. Every day, we have different issues to handle. Since we participate in various bids/ tenders, we receive numerous requests for vetting from the business for RFQs/ RPFs other contracts with Business Partners/ Vendors/ Channel Partners. As I stated, we are in multiple businesses – distribution, services, learning, system integration, financial inclusions; every day is full of action. Apart for advisory, we also have to attend to the pre-litigation advise and strategize in all litigation matters, brief counsels etc. There is no time for the team to relax as it very action packed.

    My previous organisation was into commodities/ natural resources, where issues were different. In HCL since you are essentially providing different services, as the in-house legal department, we are involved in advising the business in contracting, risk analysis/ mapping. Further, since in our business of providing services, they are always issues of recovery of money, which leads to multiple litigations, arbitrations. The in-house team also advises on many pre-litigation issues, which may be potential litigation issues. However, due to the intervention of the legal department, we are able to recover dues. I have felt that people in sales/ marketing and the delivery team are reluctant to take issues with the customer, even where we have delivered. Sometimes issues also arise with respect to understanding the contract obligations to issue such as drafting and put the perspective to clients/ customers. To bridge the gap, we have started an initiative called ‘Legal for Non-Legal’ where we will conduct workshops to improve the understanding of basic facets of law so that they can front face the issues in a better way and take care of the organisation interest. I have a big team of more than fifteen lawyers. Some of the lawyers have joined us at different level with two to eight years of practice. While they are good at general understanding of law, it is always better to improve their understanding or other facets of corporate laws. I have started internal workshop for my team for knowledge sharing called ‘Episteme’ where we discuss various changes/ developments in law, landmark judgments. One recent example is to update my team on the ‘Insolvency & Bankruptcy Code’ (IBC), which I felt was very necessary. There is no much to do and very less time.

     

    If given an opportunity, what would you do differently in your career journey up to this point?

    I could have practised at the Bar as I am the outgoing type. I love to take challenges, meet people and present my point of view. Further, when you are practising at the bar, apart from your practice and service to clients, you can also help people who cannot afford to engage a lawyer. Of course, there is still time and I can still purse the same.

    A student should purse that career option, which he thinks he will be good at and which excites and interests him or her. Once should never try to emulate, seeing the success of others. Further, there is so short cut to success and one has to go through the rigour which is required to prepare oneself to be in a position to advise someone and to deliver to the satisfaction of the client.

     

    Is there any other suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

    When we pursued law, it was a profession where there was lots of struggle and there was lack of guidance. Being a first generation lawyer, there was no one to guide me. Initially I wanted to practice at the bar but people discouraged me saying it is very difficult. Because of my dual qualification of Law and CS, people advised me to join corporate, saying it is financially rewarding. I still feel that I should have practised at the bar.

    My suggestion to young lawyers is to pursue their dreams – i.e., if they like litigation, they should follow the same and should not swayed by financial aspects. At the same time, if one likes advisory/ solicitor job, they should join a law firm, which has its own challenges. If one wishes to start their own firm, they should take the plunge early, may be after five years of experience. One needs self-belief and determination to start on their own. Today law as a profession is very rewarding and if one remains focused and willing to put in hard work, success is just a matter of time.

    Young lawyers should be tech savvy as today technology is being used big time in law and hence traditional approach needs to be married with new tools being used to deliver to the satisfaction of clients. One more word of advice to young lawyers is that, today’s world is an era of specialisation. While one needs to have a decent understanding of various facets of law, only those who specialize and develop expertise will survive and be valued.

     

     

  • Apurva Agarwal, Founding Partner, Universal Legal, on starting his own firm, and working at Luthra & Luthra

    Apurva Agarwal, Founding Partner, Universal Legal, on starting his own firm, and working at Luthra & Luthra

    Apurva Agarwal graduated from National Law School of India University, Bangalore, in 1999. Soon after, he started work with Shah Desai Doijode & Phatarphekar.  He then pursued his LLM, with a focus in Corporate and Commercial Laws, at Bond University, Australia, where he achieved academic distinction when his name appeared on the Dean’s List.  Upon completion of his LLM he returned to India where he worked for DSK Legal (formerly Andersen Legal India) and Luthra and Luthra Law Offices.  He now has his own firm, Universal Legal.  His areas of expertise include Real Estate, Corporate and Commercial, Medical, Intellectual Property and Media. His articles have been published in various newspapers and magazines.  

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • Working at Luthra & Luthra
    • Starting his own firm
    • Being a first generation lawyer

     

    What motivated you to pursue a career in law?

    I have always wanted to be a lawyer. And being a first generation lawyer at that made it all the more challenging. 

     

    Tell us a bit about your time at NLSIU, Bangalore.

    Studying law was challenging as the methods adopted in NLSIU were different. It was not lecture-oriented but discussion-oriented. Students were expected to read before coming to class, so that a healthy discussions could happen. It was an initial shock to me coming straight out of school to this. I come from an all-boys school, hence interaction with girls on campus was a pleasant surprise. Further, the faculty included stalwarts like Dr N R Madhava Menon, Dr. N. L. Mitra, Prof. S. V. Joga Rao, etc. which gave us perspectives of law beyond our imagination. Also, we had practicing lawyers coming and sharing their experiences with us , which allowed us to have practical insights to law.

     

    Did you take part in co-curricular activities while in college? 

    Yes, I did take part in co-curricular activities. I participated in a few moot courts—although, with rather unsuccessful results, I should add. I helped the institution organise several conferences.  The highlight was, when I led a team to organise an international conference on Human Rights in association with Interights. The conference was attended by 40 odd judges including Chief Justices from across the world, including Dr. A. S. Anand, the then Chief Justice of India.

     

    What were you areas of interest during your legal education?

    I was interested in doing Corporate Law. However, when I got into practical world and started working, real estate and succession planning became my forte. In fact, I have also authored a book on real estate called Layman’s Guide to Property Transaction Rights.

     

    What are the causes you feel strongly about? 

    We need to simplify the laws and legal writings so that a common man can understand it. I consciously wrote my book in a language other than English, to make it more accessible. Further, I conduct legal workshops and lectures through various fora to make people understand the same.

     

    What advice would you give students in avoiding a decision paralysis?

    Unless you want to get into academics or work abroad, pursuing further studies is not required. It’s better to dive into the big bad world headfirst. Practical experience is the best teacher.

     

    How did you keep up with Bond University’s academic rigour? 

    It was very exciting as you got to meet with students from across the world, which was not possible in India. It was a melting pot of diverse cultures. It was a confluence of various legal systems. The university expected very high standards of academic performance from all its students. The faculty was very approachable and friendly. We used to have lunches and drinks together and learn more outside the class than inside it.

     

    Tell us about your early professional experiences at DSK Legal and Luthra and Luthra Law Offices. 

    DSK Legal, through its managing partner Anand Desai taught me how to apply law to suit the clients’ requirement. The aim was to provide the client with the most appropriate solution. At the Luthra and Luthra Law Offices, I learnt to work against stiff timelines. The body of work was varied but mainly concentrated on Real Estate and Media.

     

    Did you have a mentor or guide during the formative years of your career?

    I did not have a mentor. I think it’s essential to have someone to look up to and guide you during the initial phase of your career.

     

    How did you come to be the Founding Partner at Universal Legal? 

    I was one of the first few recruits of Luthra and Luthra Law Offices, in Mumbai. This enabled me to get insight on how to establish a law office. This got me thinking, if I can do it for someone else, then why not for myself. We are a full service law firm. At the firm, we tried to incorporate all that we admire about reputable Tier-1 firms, and add a personalised touch to it. Also, we did not want to sit in office and idle our time. It was clear that people have to work long hours if there is work on the table. But if there are days, when there is less work, you are not required to sit in office. We believe in five day weeks and promote a healthy work life balance.

     

    Do you consciously focus on building a specific body of work? 

    Yes we do.

     

    What are the challenges and learning opportunities that you have faced in your career so far?

    The challenges are to constantly get work in the firm and keep abreast with the developments happening in the field of law. With the laws changing so fast and being adapted to new scenarios, we have to be on our toes.

     

    How do you deal with the pressures associated with your position?

    If you enjoy what you are doing, then there is no pressure.

     

    What qualities and achievements do you look for in potential job applicants/ interns at Universal Legal?

    The person should be willing to learn and have the basic knowledge of law. The person should have the ability to find the law and solution.

    Can you describe the process that goes behind writing?

    There is no processes as such. It’s the knowledge that we gather along the way gets translated into the writing.

     

    How do you keep yourself updated about the latest developments in the law?

    Reading and doing research. Also, by trying constantly reinvent myself

    What advice would you like to give our readers, who are mostly law students and young lawyers?

    Just be yourself and enjoy what you do.

  • Ameeta Duggal, Partner, DGS Associates, on studying at York, working at AMS, and starting her own firm

    Ameeta Duggal, Partner, DGS Associates, on studying at York, working at AMS, and starting her own firm

    Ameeta Duggal graduated in law from Campus Law Center, Delhi University, in 1991. She started her career with Mr. Ashwini Kumar, former Minister of Law and currently the special envoy to Japan. She then worked briefly with Amarchand Mangaldas Shroff before joining Associated Law Advisers. Ameeta was awarded a British Chevening Scholarship by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to study at the College of Law, York from 1996 – 1997. Thereafter she worked briefly in the London office of Clifford Chance, one of the world’s largest law firms before returning to India. Ameeta founded DGS Associates in 2004.

    In this interview we speak to her about:

    • The legal industry in the ’90s
    • Working at AMS
    • Winning the British Chevening Scholarship by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

    I am a somewhat unconventional lawyer who has always tread the unchartered path. There has been no planning that has gone into charting my professional growth. This has helped me in exploring various areas of law, which may have been lost to me had I proceeded with a predeteremined growth trajectory. I do not believe in compartmentalising my practice areas and have tried to explore various aspects of law. I started my professional career as a pure litigator and have continued to keep litigation as one of my practice areas irrespective of the fact that over the years I have moved to a completely different line of practice, being my trade laws practice, which I started in 2008. I believe that my strength lies in drafting and negotiations rather than arguing in Court. While I am immensely passionate about my work, I ensure that it never deprives me of my love for travel so I strive to make my work complement my travels to the greatest extent possible.

     

    Tell us a little about your days in law school.

    I studied law from the Faculty of Law, Campus Law Centre, Delhi between 1989 and 1991. In those days, Law was a residual career option since majority of the law students were writing their Civil Services exams. There were just a handful of us who were there to pursue law as a career option. The others just wanted to have a Plan B should they fail to clear the Civil Services exam or such other options.

    Having come from an all girls’ college, Lady Shri Ram, life in he Delhi University campus was an experience with a varied mix of students. One of the incidents that has, however, stayed with me is from a class in Negotiable Instruments. In my first semester, one of our Professors had asked us a question pertaining to the bouncing of a cheque and I remember getting up and saying that “my common sense tells me…” The professor told me something that I have never forgotten. He said that we must always remember that law is not about “common sense” but what is provided in the statute. Over the years, I have often been reminded of this saying and how true it holds.

     

    What are your areas of specialisation in law? 

    Specialisation in a given field of law is a fairly recent practice in Law. During our days at the Law Faculty we neither specialised in any specific area nor were we required to intern. Those who belonged to a family of lawyers may have spent time interning. But the rest of us had not seen a lawyers’ chamber till the time we started to looking for work. Accordingly, there were no areas of specialisation but we had areas of interest. I was always interested in contractual and corporate laws. We, however, did not have the option of International trade laws as a subject.

    I personally do not conform to specialisations. I have always been open to assisting a client with all areas of law. The only distinction I draw is between civil and criminal laws and I have stayed away from criminal law in all my years of practicing law. Other than that I have worked on varied assignments, including environmental audits, project financing, mergers & acquisitions, International commercial arbitrations and litigation (both as a Government and private counsel). It is only recently, that I have started focusing more on International trade and mergers & acquisition as my preferred areas of work.

    While on the issue of specialisation, I would like to share one of my experiences at Clifford Chance when I was working with them briefly. One morning we received a fax from a client with some four to five questions, including queries on tax and securitisation. The fax was shared across three floors depending on the areas of  law involved. This was in my initial week at Clifford Chance. Having worked in India for a few years by then I was somewhat surprised since in those days, a client query like that would have come to our table in India and we would have responded to all of them, more like a single window clearance. In my opinion, it is more comforting for a client to go to a single person for advice rather than being sent from one team to the other.

     

    How were the first few years after your graduation? 

    Unlike today, when students spend considerable time interning and gaining practical experience, for us studying Law was essentially an academic exercise, which guided us through the legal fundamentals and taught us what and how to look for the answer to a query received from a client. However, what we learnt at the law faculty was far removed from the real world practice. Objectively speaking we cannot be taught how to be a lawyer sitting in a classroom. Legal practice can only be learnt standing in a courtroom, sitting in a board room negotiating across the table or sitting across a Government authority proposing policy changes.

    This is where I owe a lot to the chambers of Dr. Ashwani Kumar (including my gown, which traditionally is presented by one’s senior) with whom I worked for almost a year. We used to be paid pittance in those days but the experience we gained was immense. Dr. Kumar was in those days a standing counsel for the Delhi Electricity Supply Undertaking (DESU), one of the biggest litigators in the Delhi High Court. On any given day we had at least ten to twelve cases listed in the High Court and we had no option but to start arguing from the very first day. Credit is also due to the judges who encouraged freshers to seize the opportunity and argue rather than seek an adjournment on the ground that the senior lawyer was unavailable. I have had a very special hearing before a Division Bench of Justice B.N. Kirpal (former Chief Justice of India) and Justice Sunanda Bhandare, who coaxed me into arguing a petition in the very first month of having joined Dr. Kumar; guiding me through the arguments and eventually dismissing the petition in my favour. Those were days filled with excitement and exhaustion but the thrill of getting a good order from the High Court was priceless. I learnt to be a lawyer overnight.

     

    Tell us about working at a Tier-I firm such as Amarchand Mangaldas Shroff.

    Amarchand Mangaldas Shroff is  undoubtedly a sought after firm now and also in those days when it was not so huge. I had the privilege of working directly with Pallavi Shroff and her team, I realised in my first few days there that I was not meant to work in a big law firm. I tendered my resignation within weeks of my joining that firm to move to a start up firm, Associated Law Advisers (ALA), which was still getting established in terms of office space. I spent almost eleven years with ALA and left only to start my own law firm.

    ALA is where I grew as a lawyer. We started as a small team of four lawyers (two partners and two associates). Each one of us supported the other and we learnt to do everything on our own – from filing to researching to drafting to appearing in courts and before arbitrators and to do large sized acquisitions, legal and environmental due diligences. My first acquisition was when Whirlpool acquired Kelvinator. I learnt as we moved through the acquisition and all credit goes to my partners, Mr. O.P. Bhardwaj and Ms. Lira Goswami, who never hesitated in giving us complete charge of a client file while keeping a broad check on the deliverables. I owe my growth as a lawyer to my years in ALA.

     

    Tell us about winning the British Chevening Scholarship by the Foreign Commonwealth Office.

    Applying for the British Chevening Scholarship was almost an accident. My then senior partner, Lira Goswami, mentioned the scholarship while we were waiting for our matter. From Court I went to the British Council to collect the form only to learn that I had just a day to submit it. Of course, I never expected to be selected but I did get an interview call. The interview panel comprised two faculty members of the college of law, York, a senior counsel from India and a representative of the Foreign Commonwealth Office. The counsel posed some direct questions on the various provisions of the Companies Act. After having fielded a few questions I remember telling him that as a lawyer I am aware which legislation I need to check but I was not aware of each and every provision of the Companies Act. The intent was not to be rude but it was an irrational expectation for a young lawyer to be familiar with more than 500 provisions of the Companies Act. I do believe that this response got me the scholarship.  

     

    How was your experience at College of Law, York?

    We were a group of twelve lawyers from all over India who were sent to the College of Law, York. Most of us were travelling outside India for the very first time and we were indeed an excited bunch of young lawyers who landed in York. The course was very thoughtfully conceived with an amazing faculty. We forged new friendships, not only within the group but with other law students at the College and with our faculty. The friendships have continued and we also continue to be referral partners for each other.

    What made our days at the College of law most memorable and fun filled is the fact that we were all practicing law already and had the security of having a job waiting for us back home. That sense of security eased the pressures and made the entire programme a huge learning experience. We got an opportunity to work with some of the biggest law firms in London.

     

    Which is the ideal time to do an L.L.M?

    From my personal experience,  I would recommend pursuing LL.M. only after having gained some work experience. I believe a LL.M. programme will be far more beneficial and focused if pursued after a few years of practice.

     

    Please elaborate on your work experience at Clifford Chance.

    The scholarship offered by the Foreign Commonwealth Office comprised two sections. First was a programme at the College of Law, York and second was a work stint at the law firms selected and allotted by them. I was sent to Clifford Chance as part of that programme. Working in a huge law firm like Clifford Chance, which at that time was the biggest law firm globally, was an experience in itself. It gave me the confidence to be able to stand on my own in the midst of an ocean of lawyers. Although I was offered a role in the firm, I longed to return to ALA and declined the offer. I have not regretted my decision ever as I do not think I would have evolved into a risk taking lawyer that I am today if I had worked in the secure confines of a large law firm as opposed to a small boutique firm like ALA.

     

    What or who motivated you to take the leap of faith to found your own law firm?

    DGS Associates owes its existence to ALA and the work culture that we imbibed there. The sense of self sufficiency and independence instilled by Mr. Bhardwaj and Lira gave me the courage to move out and start my own firm. Having worked with ALA since the days when the ALA office was being first set up, I was already familiar with the grind that setting up of a law office entailed. However, the thrill of starting one’s own practice is unparalleled.  

    Although I moved out of ALA with another lawyer there, Niti Sudhakar, we never really severed our ties with ALA. This was easy since we did not try and leave with any existing client of ALA. We moved out without any announcements and started afresh. Admittedly, those were challenging times as we had no continuing client. However, our friendship gave each of us the strength to persevere and that friendship continues to be the central pillar on which DGS stands even today.

     

    With regard to DGS Associates, what is your vision for the firm?

    At DGS, we pride ourselves for being completely relationship driven, be it with our staff, colleagues or clients. We are a small firm with a very congenial atmosphere. We would want to continue with that. We see ourselves as a well entrenched boutique law firm where the client comes never to leave. Our clients treat us as part of their management and we are happy to be in that space. We work with huge corporates as well as mid to small sized companies and individuals. We promote start ups and have always advised them basis the understanding that if they ever get funding they will pay our legal fees. The virtues of strict timelines and economies are deeply entrenched in our work culture and we never miss our deadlines. DGS has a very different work culture where associates are expected to act responsibly and independently. The stress is on timely delivery and quality output rather than the number of hours that they put in at work.

     

    Give us a brief capsule of the life of a partner and your average working day experience.

    True to the spirit of DGS, we try and maintain a balance between our work and personal lives. While we are at work, the office functions almost like a library with very focused work but we try and shut office in good time so that we all can head back home to spend time with our families. Without compromising on our work commitments, the partners also ensure time out together. Increasingly, there is lesser time available with our travel and work commitments but we always make an effort to optimise our time off. The firm has a policy of all lawyers lunching together so as to be able to get to know each other at a personal level.

     

    Is there any other suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

    I can only say that as budding lawyers give your profession all you have as this is the time when you have the energy and enthusiasm to focus entirely on work. Be open to doing all kinds of work at your work place. It gives you a better appreciation of the work that is happening around you. Most importantly, I always encourage budding lawyers to gain some experience in litigation since you cannot be a complete lawyer  without knowing how your judicial system works and how the judges think when dealing with a given dispute.

     

  • Fred Rooney, Attorney-at-Law, on being Fulbright Specialist and Global Advocate for Justice

    Fred Rooney, Attorney-at-Law, on being Fulbright Specialist and Global Advocate for Justice

    Fred earned his J.D. from the City University of New York’s (CUNY) School of Law in 1986.  In 1998 he returned to CUNY Law to direct a “unique public/private partnership” that offered a network of support and resources for CUNY Law graduates committed to increasing access to justice through their solo and small firm practices. The New York Law Journal, New York Times, Legal Times and American Bar Association Journal have highlighted Fred’s successes and bar associations and law school faculty and administrators across the US rely on Fred’s work when designing their own post-graduate programs.

    In January 2010, Fred was awarded the 2010 Father Robert Drinan Award by the American Association of Law School’s (AALS) and on February 5, 2010, he accepted the American Bar Association (ABA) Standing Committee on the Delivery of Legal Services’ 2010 Louis M. Brown Award for Legal Access, which was awarded to CLRN. The Brown Award recognizes innovative programs that meet the legal needs of those who do not qualify for legal aid yet still aren’t able to afford typical legal fees.

    In June 2013, Fred completed a ten-month Fulbright in the Dominican Republic where he launched the first law school incubator outside of the United States.  Three months later, the American Bar Journal named Fred a “2013 Legal Rebel” and recognized him as “the Father of Incubators”.

    On February 5, 2014, the U.S. Department of State’s Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs (ECA) and the Institute of International Education’s Council for International Exchange of Scholars (CIES) added Fred to its roster of Fulbright Specialists.  Since October 2014, he has traveled to Pakistan on four occasions to conceptualize an incubator for recent Pakistani law graduates.  Fred was in Islamabad on April 26, 2016 to take part in the formal launching of the first incubator for lawyers in Asia.  He is currently an adjunct faculty member at Texas A&M University School of Law.

    In this interview we speak to him about:

    • Being Commissioner of the ABA’s Commission on Hispanic Legal Rights & Responsibilities
    • His engagement with Community Legal Resource Network (CLRN)
    • His experience thus far and plans for the future

    Why did you choose to pursue a degree in law, amidst the many options that you had?

    After graduating from college, I was employed as a social worker and English instructor for immigrants.  During my years working with immigrants, I was able to see how difficult life is in a foreign country where immigrants are not always welcome.  Many of my clients/students were victimized by discrimination and racism.  I realized that to be more effective as an advocate for the most marginalized and vulnerable members of my community, I needed to become a lawyer.

     

    Tell us a little about your days in law school, at City University of New York School of Law.

    I was delighted to be accepted to the City University of New York’s inaugural class in 1983.  Many of the reasons I chose CUNY Law are stated on its website.  For example, “CUNY Law students bring a passion to make a difference in their communities”. CUNY Law gives them the tools to make that change. As the nation’s premier public interest law school, we are driven by a mission to enhance the diversity of the legal profession and graduate outstanding attorneys intent on creating change for the better. A CUNY Law education prepares lawyers who are ready to right the wrongs, stand up for the underserved and fight for social justice.

    I thoroughly enjoyed my three years of legal education since as a student, I was able to travel to Latin America, work on issues related to equality in public education, teach juveniles housed in a New York City detention center and  develop the skills I would eventually need to practice law in accordance with CUNY Law mission to further “law in the service of human needs.”

     

    What are the subjects that you took particular interest in, during your law school days?

    I enjoyed CUNY Law’s clinical approach to learning and courses I took in constitutional law, legal reasoning and writing and a course titled “Liberty, Justice & Equality.”

     

    What were your initial years after graduation like?

    Because I chose to practice public service law, my first years after graduation were challenging because my income was so low and I had a family to support.  There were times when I was tempted to enter a corporate firm, but I’m glad that I was able to stay true to my deep commitment to using my education, training and privilege in society to help clients of moderate to low incomes.  I also learned the value of pro bono service and tried to provide either pro bono or reduced-fee services whenever possible.  I learned that to do good in one’s community, you had to do well.  Doing well to do good are not mutually exclusive goals.

     

    Tell us more about Community Legal Resource Network (CLRN) and the kind of activities that it engages in.

    Thirteen years after graduating from CUNY Law, I returned to launch a network for CUNY graduates who, like myself years before, need a helping hand to start law practices with a strong social justice component.  We developed CLRN as a way of supporting our graduates as they opened solo or small firm practices and offered around-the-clock mentoring in how to create economically viable law practices and how to develop one’s professional lawyering skills.

     

    You’ve been designated the “Father of Incubators”. Kindly explain the concept of legal incubators, for the benefit of our readers.

    In response to a crisis in access to civil justice in and around New York City, CUNY Law launched the first program in the nation to train recent law school graduates. Begun in 2007, CUNY’s Incubator for Justice was designed to assist CUNY Law graduates to develop the skills needed to set up and sustain economically viable small legal practices. Special emphasis was placed on developing solo and small-firm practices equipped to address the ever-growing unmet legal needs of moderate to low-income New Yorkers living in legally underserved neighborhoods. The incubator was modeled on similar programs around the nation for small business owners. Business incubators in general aim to assist start-up business owners by providing the training participants need to enhance their professional and business skills.

    The goal of the CUNY incubator was to offer its participants the same sort of training that new associates receive when they join law firms, corporations and governmental or legal services organizations. Once hired, associates receive immediate access to professional training and support, and they have mentors to help with almost every aspect of their professional development. CUNY Law wanted to ensure that its graduates venturing into solo or small-firm practice had the same sort of access to quality training and mentorship as new associates.

    Since the Incubator for Justice was crafted as a stand-alone project for a maximum of ten lawyers, at no point in its development or implementation did anyone imagine that the new initiative would take on a life of its own and turn into a movement in the United States—and eventually abroad. The expansion of incubator programs was due, in large part, to the economic chaos that began in 2008. As law schools, and eventually bar associations, were faced with a severe lack of job opportunities for law graduates and newly admitted lawyers, the idea of creating incubator programs became increasingly more attractive. Additionally, the economic downturn left greater numbers of people in the U.S., already ineligible for publicly funded legal services, without the resources to retain private counsel. In many ways a perfect storm led legal institutions to consider incubator development to fill a sorely needed gap in opportunities for new lawyers and access to competent and affordable representation for people of modest means.

    What legal incubators are doing:

    According to the 2016 Comprehensive Survey of Lawyer Incubators, published by the ABA Standing Committee on the Delivery of Legal Services and the Lawyer Incubator Directory, more than 60 incubator programs exist today. Additionally, the survey indicates the following:

    • Although the first incubator emerged in 2007, three-fourths of them that responded to the survey have been created since 2014. Some of them have very recently “graduated” their first class of incubator participants, and a few have not even reached that point.
    • The nature, structure and design of incubators vary greatly from one program to another. The survey demonstrates that the development of incubators has been organic. There is no template for their design and operations. While many are sponsored by law schools, several are collaborative efforts, and some are sponsored by other entities such as bar associations and foundations, legal aid programs, law firms and nonprofit organizations. The services offered by incubators, the funding sources and the range of legal services provided by the participating lawyers to their clients all vary considerably from one program to another. The ABA and the Consortium for Access to Justice have provided resources to help incubators share information but, nevertheless, programs tend to reflect the needs of both their communities and their participating lawyers in unique and varied ways.
    • Incubators are aggressively advancing social responsibility through pro bono services and orientations to low- and moderate-income populations. The common denominator running through most incubators is their dual mission to prepare recently admitted lawyers to develop and launch new practices while at the same time providing services to underserved populations. Pro bono is a fixture in seven out of every ten programs.
    • Incubators are providing their participating lawyers with an array of educational and practice management tools. In-kind support from legal service vendors enable incubator participants to test-drive a wide variety of resources designed to support their practices, create efficiencies and enable the delivery of services at lower costs.
    • Innovation is stressed in many programs but has room to grow in others. Several of the programs are introducing concepts such as unbundled legal services, niche markets and alternative billing structures, but some focus on more traditional practice methods. This points to an opportunity for the larger community of incubator programs to draw from the resources of one another and suggests that some level of peer-to-peer technical assistance can expand an environment of experimentation.

     

    What motivates you?

    My parents and other family members taught me the value of “giving back” to the community many of the blessings that had been bestowed on me.  When I was young, I always believed that I could change the world.  As I got older, I realized that changing the world wasn’t a realistic goal but helping to change the lives of individuals so that their lives were more rewarding and fruitful was a more achievable goal.  Once I became a lawyer, I quickly found out that lawyers can be catalysts for social change, brokers for justice and equality and valuable members of society when they use their knowledge and skills to ensure the rights of each individual in our community are respected and protected.

     

    Is there something you’d change about the legal education system, if you had the opportunity?

    I believe that law schools have an obligation to do more that simply confer law degrees.  Given the astronomical cost of legal education in the US, law schools should continue to provide education, training and support to its graduates. The Carnegie Foundation’s Report on Educating Lawyers will lend perspective. Law school provides the beginning, not the full development, of students’ professional competence and identity. At present, what most students get as a beginning is insufficient. Students need a dynamic curriculum that moves them back and forth between understanding and enactment, experience and analysis. Law schools face an increasingly urgent need to bridge the gap between analytical and practical knowledge, and a demand for more robust professional integrity. Appeals and demands for change, from both within academic law and without, pose a new challenge to legal education. At the same time, they open to legal education a historic opportunity to advance both legal knowledge—theoretical and practical—and the capacities of the profession. Legal education needs to be responsive to both the needs of our time and recent knowledge about how learning takes place; it needs to combine the elements of legal professionalism—conceptual knowledge, skill and moral discernment—into the capacity for judgment guided by a sense of professional responsibility. Legal education should seek to unite the two sides of legal knowledge: formal knowledge and experience of practice. In particular, legal education should use more effectively the second two years of law school and more fully complement the teaching and learning of legal doctrine with the teaching and learning of practice. Legal education should also give more focused attention to the actual and potential effects of the law school experience on the formation of future legal professionals.

     

    From your experience in legal writing, please share with our readers the kind of topics that one must write on if they hope to gain recognition for their ideas.

    One should write on a topic for which the writer feels a sense of passion.  Writing to help advance one’s passion or commitment to a particular idea or ideal makes writing so much more enjoyable.  An article that I wrote for an American Bar Association publication on how pro bono work produces good karma was easy to do because the contents of the article flowed from my life experiences and from my heart.  The written word, when used for the right purpose, can be a powerful tool to espouse one’s beliefs, as seen through social media, and to advance the idea of using law as a tool to advance liberty, justice and equality in any society.

     

    What do your responsibilities involve, as Commissioner of the ABA’s Commission on Hispanic Legal Rights & Responsibilities?

    The mission of the ABA’s Commission on Hispanic Rights and Responsibilities to address the challenges and responsibilities facing Hispanics in and within the legal system of the United States.  It strives to accomplish the following:

    1. To provide expertise and resources to develop partnerships among internal and external constituencies of the ABA in order to address the legal issues, that are common to other underserved populations, but within the context of the experiences of Hispanics throughout the United States.
    2. Propose solutions and approaches for the legal profession to meet the opportunities and challenges of the Hispanic community that are exacerbated by such factors as, but not limited to, rapid population growth; language; citizenship and immigration constraints.
    3. Monitor and promote policies that address the unique legal challenges and responsibilities facing Hispanics in the United States.
    4. Develop and support community education efforts, in both English and Spanish, to inform Hispanics about their legal rights and responsibilities on key legal issues such as employment, housing, education, health care, criminal justice, voting rights, and immigration.
    5. Create and advance models through the development of tool kits, social media and communication methodology to transform judicial constructs, legal structures and infrastructures to better address the needs of Hispanic communities, particularly in the areas of language and access to education, employment, and improved public images.

     

    Is there any other suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

    As the Quaker missionary Stephen Grellet once said, “I expect to pass through this world but once; any good thing therefore that I can do or any kindness I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it for I shall not pass this way again.”

    As lawyers, we have the potential to engage in the ongoing creation of a world that truly strives to embrace the notion that all men and women are created equal and therefore deserve to be treated as such.  Helping to improve the lives of the most vulnerable members of our community, while also ensuring that we are able to adequately support ourselves and our families, will make the practice of law more analogous to a vocation than to a profession and will inevitably make that world a better place in which to live.