Lavin Hirani, though not a Bollywood actor himself, is a star in his own right. The present Head of Legal Affairs at Red Chillies Entertainments Pvt. Ltd. (Shah Rukh Khan’s Company), he could very well be termed as a mega star in the field of Entertainment and Intellectual Property Rights Law. A graduate of the University of Mumbai (2007), as well as post-graduate from The University of Manchester (2009), he first started off his career as a Litigation Associate with Khaitan & Jayakar, soon moving on to work as a Media & Entertainment Attorney, first with Naik Naik & Co. Advocates, and then with Hariani and Company – leaving the position in August 2015 to join RCE.
Given that most of our readers belong to the legal fraternity, how would you introduce yourself to them?
Hello, everyone. My name is Lavin Hirani. I am settled in Mumbai, and have been a practicing lawyer since having graduated from the 3 year LLB course in Mumbai University in the year 2007. I am thrilled to have been given this opportunity to share my modest experience of 8 years as a practising lawyer, with the legal fraternity and readers of Super Lawyer.
I currently work as the Head of Legal Affairs at Red Chillies Entertainment, a film production studio based out of Mumbai since August this year, prior to which, I was handling the media and entertainment practice at Hariani & Co.
Having done B.Com from Mumbai University, what motivated you to choose law as a career from the same University?
Well, I would love to say that it was an independent decision, however the truth is that I come from a family of lawyers, including my father, who is an active practicing advocate, due to which I was always intrigued by the profession of law. However, I was never sure of the field of law I wanted to specialise in, and therefore I involved myself with different aspects including criminal and civil litigation prior to deciding that I wanted to specialise in Intellectual Property/Copyright and Media Laws.
Did you find that your law school education had prepared you sufficiently for the many tasks you were required to execute during your internships and later at your job?
Well, the bitter truth about most of the law schools in India, except for a few of the highly rated national law schools, is that the education and the curriculum never fully prepares you for a career in law.
Thankfully, I was informed about this by various friends and family members, due to which I went for a law internship even before I started my law education.
Formal legal education in India can only prepare you so much to help you get an initial background of what the procedural laws / substantive laws in India are all about. The real education starts only once you engage yourself with real life cases, which enable you to realise the intricacies involved in solving the day to day issues faced by clients and how you deal with them.
Right after graduating, you joined M/s Khaitan & Jayakar as an Associate where you worked for one year, and then went for an LL.M. Why did you decide to go for higher studies?
I always wanted to pursue a Masters in Law. However, I personally believed that a Masters degree in law would have a greater impact and be more fruitful if I had some kind of practical experience as an advocate before I embarked upon any form of specialised education. And to my credit, it did work for me, as I was better able to imbibe the course and appreciate the finer nuances of law, including the subjects I wanted to specialise in.
I would also like to add that there is no ideal time to educate yourself. Every opportunity is a good opportunity. I know of several colleagues who waited for 3-4 years after graduating law before enrolling in a Masters degree, and several who jumped into one directly after law school, so there is no real straight-jacket approach to a Masters degree.
Tell us something about your LL.M year at the University of Manchester (UOM), United Kingdom. How did this influence your career?
There are various reasons why one may pursue a Masters degree, especially from a foreign university. Some of the reasons would be – getting a better position with their current employers/law firms, or as the first step in their journey to work and settle abroad, or better earning prospects, etc.
However, the reason why I chose to pursue my Masters degree abroad, was to get a broader perspective in my chosen career path, and also to gain further expertise in subjects like IPR, Competition and Business/commercial laws, which I was really interested in, with an accredited university like UOM.
Although I would like to believe that pursuing a Masters degree abroad did help me with my career, I wouldn’t say that a mMasters degree is a must for everyone, as the costs involved are huge, and it may not always directly co-relate to an increased compensation / better position at work once you are back in India, if that’s what one is looking for.
Soon after Masters, you joined Naik Naik & Company and worked there for two years before joining Hariani & Co. How was your experience working there?
As I said earlier, one of the subjects I had enrolled in during my masters abroad was intellectual property rights. Naik Naik & Co. was back then and even now one of the few law firms specialising in IP and Media laws and therefore was one of the law firms I interviewed with on my return to India.
I started working at Naik Naik & Co. from July 2010 for a period of approximately 2.5 years, wherein I got the opportunity of being involved in all kinds of matters ranging from handling transactions related to media and IP related documents to criminal and civil litigation before various courts, commissions, tribunals, CBI, the Supreme Court of India, various High Courts across the country, etc.
I was involved in several film industry related disputes between producers and broadcasters, guild issues, issued faced by artists, copyright infringement cases, writ petitions, criminal litigation relating to film personalities, while also being involved in non-media related issues/matters pertaining to land disputes, company petitions, service tax, the Adarsh Scam, etc.
As a law associate, this was one of the most exciting periods of my professional career back then, as I was engaged in multifarious kinds of litigation and transactions, which is extremely important for any junior starting out in law.
Since November 2012, you started working with Hariani & Co. Tell us about the nature of work you’re entrusted with therein.
Hariani & Co. is a full service law firm specialising in real estate, litigation, media & IP laws, with several media and film production companies as clients. Although I was really happy with the kind of work I was doing at Naik Naik & Co., I always had a penchant for transactional IP work, which I was missing out on, due to the humungous litigation practice at Naik Naik & Co. I was entrusted with.
I joined Hariani & Co. in November 2012, and worked there till August 2015. During my stint at Hariani & Co., I was able to hone my skills and knowledge of IP laws, especially copyright law, due to the substantial film and television related transactional work I was entrusted with, including a fair amount of media related disputes/litigation.
I would like to mention the name of Mr.Ajay Vazirani, Senior Partner at Hariani & Co., under whose guidance I was heading the M&E practice, where I was given full charge of all media clients including some of the biggest film producers in India.
I have been fortunate to have worked with a great set of people at both Hariani & Co. and Naik Naik & Co., which I believe is extremely essential for any lawyer, as I believe that the only way one can develop and gain, is from learning from others, including juniors, in addition to keeping yourself abreast with developments in your chosen field of practice.
You have specialized in IP law. What made you interested in the same? How would you suggestone can gain expertise in IP Law?
As I said earlier, I was never sure of the field of law I would choose to specialise in, which I think, in today’s world, is extremely important, while also being competent and informed to deal with any other legal issues your client may face.
I have had the opportunity, at various stages in my career, of dealing with all kinds of laws, including criminal, civil, real estate, commercial, tax, maritime, contracts, customs, etc. However, I, since my college days, have continued to be extremely enamoured with IP laws, especially copyright laws.
One of the primary reasons I chose to specialise in media and entertainment law is that it is extremely dynamic and ever-changing, and continues to inspire me with so many issues being faced by authors and the industry, in general, especially pursuant to the vast amendments made to the Copyright Act in the year 2012, some of which issues, the film industry continues to battle with.
In addition to having a special interest in copyright, I am also interested in commercial/business, and contractual laws, which I think is extremely important for any lawyer today. Except for a few branches of law, everything in today’s world is about business and contracts, where another important skill for a lawyer is drafting and negotiation, which also is something I strive to get myself involved with, and improved at, with each passing day.
Further, I am not aware of how one can gain expertise in IP law, as I do not consider myself to be an expert. However, I believe the best way to get yourself to become an expert in any subject of law, would be to involve oneself with the constant practice of dealing with real world issues of the particular field of law you want to gain expertise in, and also by updating yourself with various developments happening in the said chosen field, including through court judgments, reports and industry specific notifications/updates on a regular basis.
What are the primary essentials of an IPR lawyer? How might a fresh graduate work on building these skills?
According to me, the essentials of a good IPR lawyer is knowledge of the acts governing copyright, trademarks, patents and designs, including laws pertaining to contract and specific performance, as most of the acts governing IP provide for the requirement of written agreements recording transfers, assignments and registration of IP.
It is also good to have some basic knowledge of how litigation works in India, and not just procedural laws governing the subject, as it is very important for a lawyer to understand the difference between probability and possibility of issues arising from any particular clause / agreement negotiated by one, and moving forward accordingly. Every deal/transaction has its own modalities and specifics, and therefore good drafting and analytical skills are an absolute must for a lawyer, as this is something where many lawyers miss the bus.
I have had the fortune of working with several accomplished lawyers as a junior, and from what I have learnt from watching them from a vantage point over the past several years, I believe the best way to learn for any fresh graduate is to be sincere and spirited, as the only way one can learn is through eagerness and hard work.
What would be your advice to students interested in Intellectual Property Rights?
My advice to anyone interested in IPR would be to follow your instinct. There is no right or wrong field in law. There may be ones that are more lucrative than the other. However, you may only succeed if you are interested, and have some form of expertise in your chosen field.
IPR is also vast, with lawyers specialising in trademarks, copyrights, technology, and also as patent attorneys.
You have recently joined Red Chillies Entertainment (RCE), which is promoted by Shah Rukh Khan. How did this shift take place?
Due to my work profile, I was involved with various film production companies, and as some of you may know, RCE has recently adopted a major shift in its strategy towards being a full-fledged film production studio. Knowing my interest and aptitude with film related transactions, and not only as someone having a legal background and approach, but also someone interested in the business end of things, I was offered to join RCE to head the legal department, which, according to me, was an interesting opportunity at this juncture of my career.
Having known the entire team at RCE, having worked with them closely since the past several years, it wasn’t a difficult decision to make.
What all falls under your responsibility as Head Legal at Red Chillies? What are the primary requirements for such a role?
I am engaged in the dual capacity of Head Legal of RCE, and also as a personal in house legal advisor for Mr.Khan’s personal endorsement’s and investments.
However, in my role as the Head Legal of RCE, I am responsible for all legal issues faced by the company on a daily basis, including being responsible for all transactions pertaining to films produced, and various other IP controlled, by RCE, including acquisition, sale, licensing and distribution of films, brand associations, etc.
Does specialization in IPR Laws, especially Copyright, help in such a work profile?
Yes, it does. RCE being involved in the business of production and distribution of films, I deal with issues relating to copyright laws on a daily basis. However, in addition to the same, it is also extremely important for me to delve into various issues concerning the internal workings of the company, for which knowledge of employment and labour laws, corporate, sports, real estate and various other Indian and international laws, is also a must.
What will be your message to those who aspire to join Bollywood as a lawyer?
I won’t use the word Bollywood, as it’s an extremely restrictive term, and is used in reference to the film industry in Mumbai, only. However, the media and entertainment space is growing day by day, and furthermore, with the onslaught of entrepreneurial ventures and start-ups in the technology / ecommerce and entertainment space, there is huge potential for IP lawyers in the future, as long as they are willing to be striven towards, and genuinely concerned about IP laws, and not just the sugar coat of the media industry, which fades away in no time.
As a parting note, all I would like to say is that in addition to having knowledge and experience, it is extremely important that one is pragmatic and enthusiastic about their chosen field of law, including understanding the importance of maintaining inter-personal relationships with fellow lawyers / colleagues, as law is one of the few professions where you are bound to interact, in some form or the other, with your past or present colleagues, seniors, juniors and others, over transactions, deals or some form of dispute/s, and therefore one must not ever under-estimate others or over-estimate oneself, as everyone you interact with will in some way or the other contribute to your being a better lawyer.
Wishing everyone at SuperLawyer and its readers a very Happy New Year!
Dr. Kalyan C. Kankanala pursued law at Osmania University, graduating in 2001. From there he went on to do an LL.M in Intellectual Property from Franklin Pierce Law Center and a PhD. in Patent Law from the National Law School of India University in 2006. Kalyan is a renowned Intellectual Property attorney in India. He specializes in helping clients maximize business value from their intellectual assets. He is the founder of Brain League IP Services and BananaIP Counsels. He is also the founder of the popular IP Blog, SiNApSE.
Kalyan is a prolific writer, with several fiction and non-fiction books and publications to his credit. He teaches at premier institutes like National Law School, Bangalore and IIM, Bangalore. He worked as a consultant for the United Nations Industrial Development Organization and is at present a trustee for the Cane Foundation, and a member of the editorial board of the Journal of Intellectual Property Rights, NISCAIR.
In this interview, Kalyan speaks to us about:
His days as a student and motivations during his academic journey.
His tryst with Intellectual Property Law and his work as an IP Attorney.
His passion for researching, writing and publishing.
The future of IP practice in India.
The challenges faced while establishing his start up Brain League, and later BananaIP and his views on social welfare.
How he balances his personal and professional life.
His Legal Thriller novels and other IP works.
How would you introduce yourself, given that most of our readers are law students, law aspirants or professionals in the legal arena?
I am an Intellectual Property attorney, who loves to work with creators and inventors. The merger of law, Science/Technology and Business excites me, and I am glad to have chosen this profession. Apart from practicing IP Law and helping clients realize business value from their intellectual assets, I also teach at institutions like National Law School, Bangalore and the Indian Institute of Management, Bangalore.
I enjoy writing and have published several articles and books. In addition to academic publications, I also write legal thrillers on socially relevant themes. Right now, I am finishing my third book in the IP Law Thriller Series, The Dravidian, a traditional knowledge thriller. Earlier, I published Road Humps and Sidewalks, a Patent Law Thriller, and Pirates of Bollywood, a Copyright Law Thriller.
What would you say motivated you to take up law as a career, given that it was not a very popular option in India?
I was never motivated to pursue a career in law. In fact, I never considered it as an option. My entry into law happened by accident. I wanted to be a medical doctor, and therefore, joined a medical school. After six months in school, I had to leave due to the rapid progress of retinal degeneration, which led to a loss of working and reading vision. Then, on a well-wisher’s advice, I joined a law program in Hyderabad.
How well did your experience in Hyderabad prepare you for a life of academic prestige and professional success?
Though I did not study at one of the best law schools in the country, my law college at Hyderabad gave me the foundation and encouragement to pursue higher education and research in Intellectual Property. Some of my Professors at the law college were a great source of knowledge and inspiration, and continue to be so even today. Hyderabad was in fact the starting point of my IP career – both academic and professional.
What were the influences behind your decision to pursue an LLM in Intellectual Property Law from Franklin Pierce?
The convergence of Science and Technology with law played a major role in influencing me to pursue an LLM in IP. In those days, Franklin Pierce was rated as the best IP School in USA, and therefore I decided to study at that law school. I was fortunate to not only get a good scholarship from Franklin Pierce, but also funding from the Tata Foundation for my LLM program.
Were you always as fascinated by the field of IP law or was it an acquired passion that set in through your college years?
As I mentioned earlier, I joined the LL.B. program by accident, and throughout the course, I was looking for an interesting career subject. Intellectual Property Law caught my attention in my fourth year and I was convinced by the end of the academic year that IP would be my area of specialization. Two factors led me to this decision: the role of IP in creativity and the involvement of Science and Technology in IP Law, especially Patent Law. The fascination started only after I started delving deeper into the subject.
While most opt to end their education at an LL.M, you pursued a PhD in Patent Law from National Law School of India University. What drove you to higher education in your field of interest?
Initially, I aspired to have a career in academic research and teaching, and therefore, joined the Ph.D. program at NLSIU, Bangalore. In light of my medical background, I chose Genetic Patent Law as my research theme. However, certain circumstances drove me into IP practice. In fact, I co-founded my first firm, Brain League, now BananaIP, when I was at National Law School, pursuing doctoral research.
Between founding Brain League (now BananaIP Counsels) in 2004, while pursuing a PhD at NLSIU, and subsequently teaching at NLSIU as visiting faculty from 2005 onwards, how did you manage all of these time intensive tasks together, all while publishing research papers in domestic and foreign journals, and writing novels?
Well, I love to write and teach, and have never faced issues with managing my time between practicing IP, teaching, and writing. Teaching and writing in fact help me do well in my profession as they drive me to learn continuously and keep abreast of IP developments. I enjoy creative writing, and have found time to write at least one novel every year during the last three years.
Would you attribute any of your success to the types of internships you were exposed to? How would you advise current students to go about the process of finding and targeting internships?
During my days at law school, interning was not very prevalent. I did not intern anywhere and missed the opportunity to learn the nuances of legal practice during my student days. Internships are a great way of learning the dynamics of legal work and choosing the right field that fits one’s goals. Students must look to intern at firms and companies specializing in different areas of law to get a flavour of the various fields of practice.
Where does your love for writing come from? What motivates you to write?
I do not need motivation to write. I write because I thoroughly enjoy writing. Reading and writing give me great happiness. Sometimes, writing helps me learn and understand a concept/issue better.
What kind of research and work goes into your publishing?
Normally, to write 500 words I spend at least five hours on research. Having said that, some topics require much longer, and some others, much less time based on my familiarity with the subject. For example, I take much longer to write on Medical Law when compared to patent law.
Also, there is a difference between fiction and non-fiction writing. While my fiction is largely driven by experiences and observations, non-fiction is based on law, facts, case laws/studies, etc.
How would you advise students to go about their careers with respect to research and writing, publishing-grade academic papers?
I wrote my first article during the second year of LLB. It was not published but it taught me a lot about the topic. My first publication came along only during my LLM Program. It required one full semester of research to be eligible for publication. Nowadays, it is not very difficult to get published if one writes a well-researched, articulate paper on a contemporary issue.
What sort of an effort did it take to get published by world-renowned publishing houses like the Oxford University Press, Japanese Innovation Foundation, Thomson West, etc.?
It was quite challenging to get my first book published. I started by identifying appropriate publishers and writing to them. All publishers send you a proposal form, which asks for much more than details of your book. It is basically a pitch document through which one must make a case for acceptance of his work for publication. In addition to book details and sample chapters, it includes market data, marketing and promotional information, author profile, etc.I sent proposals to six publishers and got offers from three of them. Then, I weighed their stature and published with the one that I felt had the best visibility and reach. Once my first book was published with a reputed publisher, it was easy to get good publishers for my subsequent works.
What are your upcoming novels? Are they also related to IP?
Two of my books are set for release in 2016. Both of them do not relate to intellectual property. The first novel, The Oath, is a medico-legal drama. The second one, DogMafia, is a short thriller on the dog abduction mafia in Bangalore.
My next IP Law Thriller is ‘The Dravidian’. This book is expected to hit the stands in 2017 if I finish it as per schedule.
In setting up Brain League (now BananaIP), what were the challenges and obstacles you faced as a legal start up in the Indian market?
Unlike start-ups in other areas, legal start-ups cannot market, advertise, and scale up through standard channels. While incubating out of IIMB’s entrepreneurship cell, we ran around the campus brainstorming for different strategies, only to realize that none of them would apply to us. To make matters worse, I was a fresher out of law school, with very little experience. My partner had some technology experience, but no legal experience or background whatsoever. We were probably in the sixth month when the first opportunity came our way. Sasken Technologies, a company based out of Bangalore, was looking for large-scale IP training and we managed to get the contract. Thereafter, for reasons we cannot really pin point, clients got in touch with us at IIMB and wanted to work with us. At that time, most patent lawyers lacked technology backgrounds and we provided that value to clients. By virtue of the said uniqueness, several newspapers and magazines carried stories about us, and things started falling in place.To cut a long story short, I think we were at the right place at the right time. Also, we were fortunate to get the backing of reputed Professors like Prof. Pavan Mamidi (IIMB), Prof. Ramakrishna (NLSIU), Prof. Anil Suraj (IIMB), Prof. Damodaran (IIMB), Prof. Murali (IIMB) and several others.
What are your views on career choices other than mainstream corporate or litigation streams such as teaching, etc.? How, if at all, have your views on the same been affected by your time spent as visiting faculty at NLSIU and teaching at IIM, Bangalore?
Today’s law graduates have more choices than before. The practice of law is getting more specialized, and many new opportunities are opening up on a daily basis.
I once wanted to be in academic research and teaching, but could not take that path owing to certain circumstances. Unlike those days, the salary scale for teachers is now quite decent and it surely is a very good career option. In addition to teaching, students may also consider options like public interest advocacy, policy level lobbying, government positions, judicial services, etc. Starting up is also a very good option for law graduates. When we started Brain League in 2004, joining a corporate was an attractive proposition, and most of my friends preferred to join law firms or companies. Though we initially made several sacrifices by starting up, we were able to build the third largest IP Firm in India by 2012. Today, BananaIP is one of the fastest growing firms in India, and in hindsight, I feel I made the right decision. At present, the ecosystem in India is very conducive for entrepreneurship, and there is a higher probability of success for legal startups.
What are your views on Intellectual Property as a lucrative and growing area of legal practice in the global scenario today?
Intellectual Property is one of the fastest growing fields of law in India. Several areas of IP like licensing, open source, portfolio management, technology transfer, valuation, IP Management and even litigation are still in their early stages, and have a long way to go. These areas will have great growth potential in the coming years.
IP Practice in India has progressed substantially from the filing, prosecution and registration perspectives, both qualitatively and quantitatively, and I foresee some kind of equilibrium in these areas by 2020. Having said that, if the Indian IP filing scenario grows like that of China, there will be tremendous growth in these areas as well.
Moreover, there are several areas of law, where IP forms a very important component. Such areas include Entertainment Law, Sports Law, Technology Law, Ecommerce Law, Art Law, etc. These areas of law are still largely unexplored, and I foresee great growth potential in the said areas of practice.
Having spent nearly three years as a National expert on IP at the United Nations Industrial Development Organization, how did your experiences there affect you as an individual and as a lawyer?
Working with the United Nations Industrial Development Organization (UNIDO) taught us many things. I took up this work in association with my colleague, Soma Shekar, who is a leading Mechanical Patent Expert, and also, a good friend. At some level, we can say that working with UNIDO changed us as individuals. The work with UNIDO cluster companies in machine tools, plastics, and foundry gave us great insights about the said sectors, and how SMEs in those sectors operate. Today, this experience not only helps us understand SMEs better, but also enables us address their needs effectively. During our fieldwork, we met some very special, yet humble individuals, who have been making telling contributions through their innovative activities for more than thirty years. They taught us a lot about their work, and life in general. We feel privileged to have met them and treasure the knowledge they have given us.
As a Trustee at the Cane Foundation, what motivated you to participate in social welfare for the disabled?
Well, I always find it difficult to put this across. I am visually disabled, and had to fight the system for almost everything ranging from getting a scribe to travelling on a flight. We started the Cane Foundation to ensure that other disabled persons do not face the same problems and also, to take disability support to the next level. We were fortunate to get support and funding from people like Prof. Ramakrishna (NLSIU) to get the trust going.
What advice would you give students looking to build a career in Intellectual Property Laws?
Intellectual Property is a great field to be in. If you like to work with creators and inventors, have the ability to understand business, science and technology, and can adapt to change quickly, go for it. But, note that working with creators is not the same as creating. You will mostly be at the back end of creativity, helping your clients protect, manage, enforce and make money out of their intellectual assets, and may not get the visibility creators get.
Amongst so many things do you find enough time for a personal life or does that have to be managed separately?
Time for family and fun has never been a problem. I enjoy doing most things I do, and do not necessarily manage my personal life separately.
What factors, facets, or traits would you attribute your success to? What, if at all, do you believe still needs work?
Intellectual Property as a field is vast, and continuously evolving. To be competitive, you must learn on a daily basis and swiftly adapt to change. Over the years, I have been fortunate to work on some cutting edge projects, and learn from some of the best in the field. So far, I have merely touched the tip of the IP iceberg, and have a long way to go before I can call myself successful.
What would be your parting advice to our readers?
Pick a career path you enjoy and give it your best, the rest will fall in place.
Pooja Terwad graduated in B.L.S.LL.B from Mumbai University in 2012. Thereafter, she went for LL.M from Jindal Global Law School. She got an excellent opportunity to visit Maurer School of Law and work there as a Research Associate for a semester as a part of a fully paid scholarship programme from JGLS.
She is a legal practitioner with expertise in Consumer Law, recently she founded Nivaran Online, a platform which proposes to end all consumer disputes. Let’s talk with her today on National Consumers Rights Day find what drives her to such social initiatives.
Tell us a bit about yourself.
I am a Mumbai girl, from an exceptionally well-educated family. Law is something I did not choose, but it happened by chance. It was only after working for a few years that I realised Law is my true calling. I have been associated with NGOs like Cheshire Home, Indian Development Foundation, and others since I joined Law. Working with the under-privileged made me stronger and determined as an Individual. The consistency I have seen amongst differently abled population has given me the courage to walk a little far and choose a way that is less travelled.
How do you recall your graduation and LL.B days?
I have been an average student throughout my schooling and LL.B days. It was only the desire to achieve something above average and to do something different than most of the law graduates, which got me into Nivaran. The experience of volunteering with Asia’s largest consumer organization, Mumbai Grahak Panchayat, and exposure to intern at Consumer International, Malaysia was a boon. All this experiences further resulted in Nivaran.
Tell us about your professional qualifications.
I completed my B.L.S.LL.B from Mumbai University in 2012. After that, I went for my LL.M from O.P. Jindal Global University, New Delhi. I have been awarded a gold medal for my academic performance and another gold medal as an award for the Law Leadership programme.
I was fortunate to have got an opportunity to go to the United States of America on full scholarship, for pursuing my semester. After, I came back I worked with the Additional Solicitor General of India, Mr. Anil Singh at Bombay High Court. I also had the opportunity to work on serious matters like Adarsh Scam, Campa Cola, etc. under his guidance.
It was in January 2015 that I started my law firm and at the same time began volunteering for Mumbai Grahak Panchayat under the mentorship of renowned consumer activist and Lawyer, Mr. Shirish Deshpande. I am thankful to him for the opportunity to attend a 14-day internship programme at Consumers International, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. The guidance of Ms. Indrani Thuraisingham, Head of CI, South Asian Region, has also been very helpful to me while setting up the process at Nivaran Online.
Please tell us about how you got the USA scholarship, and what all did it cover? What did you get to do in the States?
I should thank Jindal Global Law School for my USA scholarship. I was enrolled in the two years’ LL.M course and had a keen interest in Intellectual Property Laws. I was the topper of the first year LL.M at JGLS, and hence, our Director chose to send me to the US for a semester at Maurer School of Law, Indiana University, Indianapolis. Although not an Ivy League college, this is one of the best public universities in the States with the most renowned IPR professors teaching there.
There I got an opportunity to study Patent Law from Prof. Mark Janis, who is an immensely learned and globally renowned IPR attorney. My scholarship covered my entire tuition fees and a Monetary Scholarship of USD 4000. Apart from that, I also received a paid Research Associate position at the University.
Also, I always wanted to work while studying and experience the high of being financially independent. I got the chance to do so while in the States. I did end up doing small jobs in the US and also worked as a Research Associate to professors. It was quite exciting.
Did you think of pursuing your profession at the United States?
More than professional reasons, I had personal reasons to come back. I am the only child, and I was not very keen to leave my parents alone in India in their aging years. And, I am strongly of the belief that, Indians have an incredible potential to transform the country with their innovation. It’s just that we need to overlook the Dollars, and have a strong sense of belief in our potential.
What inspired you to start something like NIVARAN?
While working for Asia’s largest NGO for consumer issues, Mumbai Grahak Panchayat, and working for their Consumer Guidance cell, I realised that NGOs in India work on a micro-economic platform. They do not have the expert resource to work for a single consumer, and get the dispute resolved as a matter of responsibility. Indian consumers needed an organization, where expert legal advice could be provided by lawyers. However, the same should be given at an affordable price. I wanted to establish an institution, where every “justifiably cheated consumer” gets a resolution without going to the courts.
Why do you think Society needs a platform like NIVARAN?
Most of the times, an Indian consumer is left with two choices. Either “GO TO THE COURT” or “GIVE UP ON HIS RIGHT”. I feel both of them are neither viable nor justified. When the loss is of Rs. 25,000 to 50,000, a consumer doesn’t want to go to the court, as he will end up spending much more than the loss amount on lawyers and the judicial system. And ultimately, he gives up on his rights silently. I wish to change this scenario. Every consumer should get a resolution under every circumstance.
What is your role in Nivaran Online?
I am a founder at Nivaran Online, and I look into the Operation and Legal Area.
What is Nivaran’s operational model? Where do you see Nivaran in five years down the line?
With the kind of pendency and delay in Consumer courts, I wish to make Nivaran Online, a centralised platform for resolution of disputes, where brands, as well as consumers, operate on amicable grounds. We have associated with several Consumer NGOs in India, especially the ones founded by people who believe in swift resolution and are open to trying something new, rather than going the monotonous way. They divert consumer complaints from their areas, and we in return, help them with Honorary Funds so that they can further consumer welfare. I wish to tie-up with Organizations, Governmental and Non-Governmental, and ultimately provide the best aid to consumers.
How difficult has it been as a litigator, have you ever faced any gender bias in the legal profession?
Fortunately, I have never suffered any such bias till date. I have been lucky to have met people who judged me by my credentials, rather than my gender. I believe women have proved themselves beyond all doubts. It is true that we do not have many women entrepreneurs in the start-up world. But, male-dominated professions have never discouraged a woman from establishing her identity. So I am highly optimistic, that my gender will never be a hurdle in moving ahead.
Don’t you think starting up with Nivaran can affect your mainstream profession?
I have been in litigation for quite some time. I have my full-service law firm, in the name of Pooja Terwad & Associates. We were fortunate to have established ourselves pretty well without any previous legal background. However, I was always dissatisfied when I appeared in Consumer Courts.
Even in my individual capacity, I ensured that before we go to the court, we try to settle the matter. I also encouraged consumers to argue on their own, if they could not afford lawyers’ fees. But, the highly technical procedures were often discouraging. So, I thought of moving apart from the monotonous and commercialized structure of Courts, help consumers resolve their disputes and charge them nominal fees, which did not exceed 10 percent of the loss value at any cost. So, I chose to do what courts do, however, without going to the court.
What would be your message to our readers?
I feel Indian lawyers are bogged down by competition, all they care is about “packages”. Very few of them wish to experiment, innovate and come up with something exciting which will help the society as a whole.
Our youth I notice is pressurized to such an extent, with stereotypical opinions that he fears to try his hand at something new, something challenging. We are scared to get out of our comfort zone; we are afraid to struggle. We are afraid of failure, not because it would affect us, but because the society might not accept us with a failure tag. I feel we have taken the Society way too seriously. It’s time we do what we feel is going to make us happy and moreover do what we are meant to do.
I would only urge to all of my friends that we have the potential; we just need to be creative and an out-of-the-box thinker.
Sagar Singamsetty did his undergraduate law studies from NALSAR University, Hyderabad in 2003 and his LL.M. in air and space law at the University of Leiden, the Netherlands, in 2006. Having a passionate interest in the highly niche field of air and space law, Sagar has, right since the beginning, fearlessly tread off the conventional track to do well in this field. It is because of this reason that he has continued to work for good firms and has climbed the ladder successfully, one step at a time. Currently the Senior International Legal Advisor for FedEx Express, he resides in Brussels, Belgium, he has also published a book on air and space law, ‘Contemporary Issues and Future Challenges in Air and Space law’ in 2011.
He talks to SuperLawyer about:
His life at law school and how he started inclining towards the field of air and space law
His decision to join the Leiden University to pursue Masters
His general advice to students interested in air and space law but fear pursuing it as it is a highly niche field
His experience at a variety of firms and his work profile in each of them
His take on how to balance work and family
His future plans
How would you introduce yourself to our readers?
I would introduce myself as an airplane lover. It is my love for airplanes that gives wind beneath my wings to excel. Aviation is close to my heart and I am lucky to work as in-house counsel in this fascinating sector for 10 years now. I wanted to become a pilot but someone above had a different path chosen for me. Looking back, I can only be happy about the decision to take up law as my profession.
What made you choose law as your profession? Is there anyone in your family who has been in the legal profession?
Law was never my preferred option. I always thought law is for the intellectuals. If not for my father’s intervention at that time, which I see as a master stroke from him, I would not have chosen law as my profession. I am the first person in my family to graduate with a law degree.
Tell us about life at law school. What subjects interested you the most while in law school?
(Sagar went to the NALSAR University, Hyderabad)
Being the first batch of Nalsar University, we had a great opportunity to build a legal institution of national repute. I am proud of what we did as Nalsarites over the years for the legal community in India and abroad. Yes, the first couple of years, infrastructure was very limited and resources were stretched to the maximum. Like in any new institution, the law school and its students had to go through an experimental phase that did raise questions, including the sustainability of the institution itself. Looking back, I can only say that the biggest advantage law schools like Nalsar University have is their students who come from all over the country. This brought a certain level of exposure which improved the overall experience of being in a national law school.
I was an average student in the class and was just trying my best to get through the routine – exams, papers, presentations and internships every semester. Arbitration law, contract and property law, law and poverty, international law (public and private) and international trade law are some subjects that had my attention. It was in my international law class that I learnt this specific area of law relating to aviation and space sector. In my 4th year of law school I decided to work in aerospace sector and I was confident that given an opportunity to take-off in this niche area, I will touch the skies.
How active were you in co-curricular and extracurricular activities? What kind of internships did you do as a law student? Did any of the internships have a special impact on you?
Let me tell you this. My first 2 years were gone in trying to understand what I was supposed to be doing in law school. Then in my 3rd year, there was some sense of direction but still no clarity. It was only in the 4th and 5th years of my law school life that I started realizing the need to do more. Yes, I had a few papers to my name; did few internal moots to taste what they are like; and presented a few papers at conferences and seminars. In terms of extracurricular activities, I was part of the Hospitality and Disciplinary Committees. Nothing to boast about!
When it came to internships, I made choices that helped me gain good experiences. I never missed an opportunity to do my internship along with studies. In each internship, starting with an NGO to a High Court Judge to practising senior lawyer in Supreme Court of India to a law firm that did aviation work, there was a lot to learn and experience outside the four walls of the law school and the law library. Of course, reading, understanding and applying legal principles to an issue at hand is important for us as lawyers. However, I observed that beyond these legal principles lay a fundamental aspect – the commitment to satisfy the requirements of a lawyer’s internal and external clients. The level of confidence you give to your client is a key performance indicator and this will determine your success as a lawyer (in-house or practising). This is a key take away point from all my internships in India and abroad (in UK and the Netherlands) and should remain a key take away point for any budding lawyer.
What was the work like at International Legal and Trade Consultants?
(Right after graduation from NALSAR, Sagar worked as a Legal Assistant at ILTC)
I had an offer from ILTC and Satyam Computers (now called Mahindra Satyam) during the on-campus recruitment at Nalsar University. I chose ILTC (head office in New York) because it was a small law firm with a focus on corporate law and immigration laws, and my idea was to leave the job after a year to do my higher studies at Leiden University. ILTC, headed by Mr. Madhu Yaskhi (former MP Congress Party), was planning to set-up their legal support services company (LPO provider) in Hyderabad. It turned out that I did less of legal work and more of letter writing for and on behalf of Mr. Yaskhi, who decided during my time at ILTC to join Indian politics. As a fresh graduate I used to wonder if that is what I am supposed to be do in my job! I have to say, looking back, that accidental experience is what I am doing today as a full-time job in my role as regulatory affairs counsel in Brussels, Belgium. As someone said to me once, in law profession every experience counts.
What made you decide to pursue Air and Space Law for your Masters? How did you decide upon Leiden University and what was your experience?
This decision did not take place overnight. First, my passion for aerospace led to a decision at Nalsar University to pursue this subject; second, I worked hard to get decent grades in international law related subjects and wrote research papers in space law; and third, my determination to contribute something to the field of law that is ignored by many had driven me to take up this challenging opportunity and I believed there was a lot to explore.
Only two universities (at that time), Leiden University and McGill University, offered a Masters level programme in air and space law. A European country was my preferred destination, therefore, McGill was immediately out of contest and I did not make an application as well. I learnt from my mentor and Head, Centre for Air and Space Law (CASL) at Nalsar University, Prof. Balakista Reddy, that some of the best teachers in this field of law are at the Institute of Air and Space Law, Leiden University. The program also gave an opportunity to do internship in aviation or space sector(s), which was a real bonus for a student to gain practical experience. So, Leiden University was without any doubt the best choice to pursue my studies in air and space law. Once I knew it will be Leiden University, I looked for scholarships available for Indian students. I was lucky to receive Huygens Scholarship from the Dutch government based on merit.
During my studies at Leiden University, I was accompanied by a group of passionate supporters of aerospace industry who came from various parts of the world. We all had fun during our studies but never got out of focus from the actual goal we had individually set for ourselves. I had the opportunity to represent Leiden at the Manfred Lachs Space Law Moot Court Competition and also got elected to be the President of the class for the year 2004-2005. So, I did more than what I expected of myself and my overall experience at Leiden University was simply ‘superb’. Let me also tell you that today, we have a strong Leiden alumni network around the world where we share knowledge, experience and also assist the younger batches to find internships (if lucky, a job opportunity too). I have no regrets about taking the decision to join Leiden University and choosing to live in the land of tulips, the Netherlands.
Most students who have an interest in the field of Air and Space Law hesitate to pursue Masters in this arena of international law owing to how niche it is, and how difficult it is to find jobs. What would you recommend to such students?
There is definitely a degree of uncertainty with these areas of practice. Lot of people thought I was mad when I told them that I am interested to pursue this field of law. First question or the only question was who is going to employ you? Will there be any scope for you to practice this law in India? There was no answer to the query except for my self-belief that my decision will not fail me.
Honestly, this is a difficult question to answer. Some term this as a super specialised area of law. In my opinion, areas like air and space law should not be seen in isolation. Yes, it is a niche area but if you combine this specialization with general subjects of law, like corporate law, commercial law, competition law, insurance law, tax law and others, the opportunities are endless.
To anyone who wishes to pursue higher studies, I strongly recommend working for minimum two to three years after their undergraduate studies. This allows them to gain the required experience (learn how law works in practice) and the time to better understand their own interests in the field of law. There will be a huge difference when one makes a decision to pursue higher studies after a few years of gaining some work experience.
For those who wish to pursue studies in the Netherlands, visit www.nuffic.nl to find out more about the courses and the scholarships that are available for students from India. Always remember that your rationale for choosing a university for higher studies should be either because 1) the course programme really interests you and you believe that the course will add value to your already existing knowledge (university ranking is not important here); or 2) the university is in tier 1 group. This means, the brand name and the alumni network will further your interests. Do not choose a university because someone told you or because of some ranking available online. It is an important decision in your life and make sure you evaluate all the options that are available to you and always try to get a scholarship even if it covers your costs partially.
How did you gain employment at AerCap Aviation Solutions? What was your experience here like?
(After graduating from Leiden University, Sagar worked at AerCap Aviation Solutions)
I got an internship opportunity at AerCap as a student of Leiden University, which later turned into a job in their contracts team. AerCap is an aircraft leasing company having their head office in the Netherlands with a fleet of over 1,000 owned and managed commercial aircraft. I was a senior member of the Contracts Department for the Asia-Pacific Region that handled complex, high-value lease contracts for the regional airline clientele. The nature of the job was very international and the legal issues spanned various jurisdictions, which made my experience in the aircraft leasing sector all the more worthwhile. Leasing and financing of aircraft involves a great deal of collaboration between tax, finance, insurance, risk and legal. This cross-functional dialogue enhanced my knowledge of commercial aviation business in general and expanded my opportunities beyond aircraft leasing sector. It was during this time I decided to take a transfer test to qualify as a Solicitor in UK, which I successfully passed.
You shifted to TNT Express. Why this move? What was the work like?
Leaving an exciting job at a company like AerCap was not easy for me. It was a difficult decision but a decision that I had to make to further my own career. TNT is an express company that delivers goods ranging from documents and parcels to palletised freight. TNT having its own fleet of aircraft and ground vehicles provided me with the opportunity to expand my legal horizon beyond aircraft leasing. Cargo (or specifically express cargo) isn’t something that comes across as a fancy sector to work for legal professionals. I took the job because I always wondered why people were just fond of passenger sector when transportation of goods is equally important for the growth of an economy. I started as a Legal Counsel where my primary responsibility was to draft and negotiate contracts for the Sales, IT and Procurement departments.
Given my aviation experience, I was later appointed as Senior Counsel at TNT Airways, the airline division of TNT Express. During this time, I worked on the purchase of B777 aircraft(s), wet leased and sub-leased aircraft, and aircraft maintenance agreements, amongst others things. Due to family reasons, I could not continue to work for the airline division and moved back into a different role in the head office of TNT. The role is completely different as I chose to become a Regulatory Affairs Manager for Europe dealing with Customs and Aviation Security related issues. In express cargo sector, customs and security issues are to be handled diligently to avoid any disruptions to the operations of the business. TNT was where I learnt about the express business and developed both my legal and regulatory skills.
You have now been working as Senior International Legal Advisor at FedEx Express. What has the experience been like, thus far?
After 5 years at TNT Express, someone came across my profile on LinkedIn and wanted to discuss about a position at FedEx Express. FedEx Express is the world’s largest express transportation company, providing fast and reliable delivery to more than 220 countries and territories worldwide. My role is to advise the management of the regulatory developments affecting or potentially affecting the operations of FedEx in Europe. The regulatory issues covered as part of my responsibility, to name a few, include international aviation regulations; customs and aviation security; export control laws and trade sanctions; and transport and environment. The range of policy and regulatory issues require a good understanding of our business model and especially about our operations across Europe and worldwide. Having moved to Brussels, Belgium recently I am also enjoying my engagement with European institutions in developing meaningful policies for our sector (transport sector in general).
In your opinion, what qualities should one imbibe in oneself if he wants to rise up the ladder as in-house counsel?
Fortunately or unfortunately, I do not have the experience of working in a law firm (except for my experience at Clyde and Co. in their aviation department). I have always worked as an in-house counsel and I believe these are the three qualities that one has to imbibe in oneself to build his career (either in-house or as a good lawyer):
i) Honesty and integrity in business;
ii) Effective communication skills;
iii) Empathy, especially towards co-workers.
Apart from the above, it is equally important for an in-house counsel (or a lawyer in a law firm) to: 1) understand their business well; and 2) build their knowledge in other areas of law.
To give you an example, I work with external counsel (law firms) around Europe who advise us on various legal and regulatory issues concerning our business. Despite their very good knowledge of law, I do not see any benefit of the advice given by external counsel if they cannot comprehend the business requirements.
As to building knowledge in other areas, do not confine yourself to an area that your job description states. Be ready to accept any challenge that is given even if it is outside the scope of your practice area. In-house counsel should re-invent and adapt to the business requirements to be ahead of others. To give an example from my own personal experience, I started as an aviation lawyer and now I also work on customs (recently completed post-graduate diploma on customs law from Canberra University, Australia), security, and trade and compliance matters.
Is the work and personal life balance manageable in Europe?
I hear a lot and read a lot about this issue. Sorry but this is something an individual has to decide and it has nothing to do with the country or region of this world you are working in. It is this simple – a workplace or a country you choose to live does not provide this balance. You have to decide on your priorities in your life. Once you make your own preferences then this work and life balance will be an issue of the past. Yes, all of us do long hours because that is the nature of our profession but there are other things to do in life – sleep (this is the best I like) or playing sports or doing something that you feel happy about. Most companies based in Europe certainly help their employees lead a better life compared to other parts of the world. However, it is one’s own decision again as to where they wish to draw a line.
What are your plans for the future? Would you consider entering the field of academia?
I like what I do in my job and will continue to develop myself in the path I chose. Yes, academics certainly interest me but I’m not yet sure what part of the academia it will be: coaching, teaching or management! I worked as a Programme Coordinator at Leiden University; was appointed as team coach of moot court teams and was also appointed as Judge at Air Law Moot Court Competition that Leiden University organizes every year; published a book on air and space law, ‘Contemporary Issues and Future Challenges in Air and Space law’; and recently also appointed as Visiting Faculty at Nalsar University for their Air and Space Law programme. So, I’m never out of touch from academics and I commit myself to promote aviation or general transport sector out of my own interest and in my own time.
My parents gave me the best education they could despite their financial difficulties, and my friends supported me in many ways during my difficult times to further my education. I have come a long way to be what I am today because of ‘education’. May be, I got lucky! We see a lot of people, especially kids, who still cannot afford to go to a school to get primary education in various parts of the world. I believe ‘education’ in some form or fashion should reach to one and all. My wife and I together have some plans, which we will certainly execute in the future. That is our wish and it will be our way of giving back to the society.
What is the one advice you would like to give young law students?
Be honest to yourself. Know your strengths and limitations. This understanding about yourself will help you make the right career choices.
Akshata Srinath graduated from Christ College, Bangalore University in 2011 and subsequently did a dual LL.M. course from New York University of Law (NYU) and National University of Singapore (NUS) in 2014. After having interned at several top legal firms of India, editing a journal at NUS and winning the Dean’s Award in her Master’s programme, Akshata is today working at the Dacheng Wong Alliance LLP, Singapore as an Associate (Foreign Lawyer).
In this interview, she tells our readers about:
The importance of certificate and diploma courses for a law student
Her experience of successfully applying for a foreign master’s degree and getting the Dean’s Award at NYU-NUS
Working and writing for journals
Difference between the work culture in Singapore and India
Her views on entry of foreign law firms in India
What was your motivation to study law? How did you come to choose Christ Law College for your law degree?
I went through a lot of career seminars in secondary school to decide on what I really wanted to take up afterwards. Law seemed to be interesting and different. I attended few workshops for career counselling and realized law is not only about litigation (for me back then law meant going to the courts or being a judge), it showed me the corporate culture, NGO/pro bono work, legal editing work. Also at that time, my father was with ITDC Vigyan Bhawan where till date there are numerous events relating to different areas of law taking place. So he used to bring home materials, information and other details for me to read and therefore I was sure that I really wanted to pursue law as my career.
Christ College Law was under Bangalore University at the time I joined. I did get in to a law school in Delhi, but going to Christ felt like coming out of my comfort zone which I still believe was a right decision. The campus is beautiful and a few friends who were already studying in Christ College, but in different departments, helped me take the decision. During my admission process, I also spoke to a faculty members which added to my motivation to choose Christ.
You have interned with most of the top law firms in India. How did you go about securing internships at these firms? How was your experience with them?
I have been lucky to have secured internships with some of the top law firms in India. I applied to the HR of the law firms, dropped reminder mails and few phone call follow ups to get the internships. My experience at every firm was different. I have interned with JSA in Bangalore and Gurgaon and was surprised to see how different the same law firm in different cities is. In Bangalore, the partner would directly come and give me work. I would be surrounded with lawyers so interaction level was surely high. But in Gurgaon office I found it impossible to reach the partner, because the number of lawyers was so much that you become less noticeable.
I have always been given quality work, which involved drafting of few agreements and research work. I have made presentations for lawyers and attended few client meetings. I was given a good practical experience on how work is done in a law firm.
Are there any extra-curricular activities you participated in during your 5 years at Christ?
I did a couple of national and international moots but soon realized mooting wasn’t a good idea for me. I ended up taking part in parliamentary debates, Mock UN, presented papers in conferences and took part in national negotiation rounds. I have few publications in national and international journals. I also did some volunteering and legal aid work.
Could you please describe to our readers the various Certificate and Diploma courses you studied, and the benefit you got out of them?
I started doing certificate and diploma courses from my second year. I did diploma courses in corporate law and law of corporate mergers and acquisitions and certificate courses in dispute management and IP rights. I also attended the summer programme in international law by the Indian Society of International Law.
Bangalore University law course is structured in such a way that we only get to read law subjects from the third year. So by doing these extra courses, you are clearer on a particular area of law. There is always a benefit in doing something extra. In my case, it helped me in bridging gaps in my knowledge. I knew a little more when I was making notes on research given to me in my internship. The extra knowledge also helped me in writing papers for publication, and a competitive edge. And lastly, resume for a fourth year or final year student looks good with extra courses.
How did you secure a job upon graduation? What was the work profile like?
(Upon graduation, Akshata joined as an Associate at the offices of KSB Partners)
I applied to various law firms for job interviews and KSB Partners gave me this chance to work and grow with them. The work profile of KSB Partners was interesting. We did project finance and mergers & acquisition related work involving mostly drafting of agreements and preparation of due diligence reports including doing some research and giving legal opinions on the same. I couldn’t have asked for a better place to start working in the industry. This was because the areas of law were interesting and the Partners surely knew how to guide you through a particular task. I was fortunate to work with all the three Partners and receive knowledge and certain tricks from each of them.
When and how did you decide to get a Master’s degree?
I wanted to do Master’s but wasn’t sure when and how to go about it. One of my friends was applying to an architecture course in NUS for the year 2013-14 which made me think about Master’s. Also, I knew few friends who had been to NUS law so after getting information from them, checking few more details online, I discussed it with my parents and applied. I applied only to two law schools, one being NUS and the other being NYU Singapore.
Can you please tell us about your experience applying for your Master’s degree? Do you believe it is more difficult for non-NLU students to get through into foreign universities?
(Akshata pursued a dual LL.M. from NYU and NUS)
Applying to NYU was a last moment idea and a hope that turned into reality. While researching for NUS Law School I did come across this unique course that seemed really fascinating. Submitting a statement of purpose was not required for NUS but in NYU they require SOP plus other documents like an essay for scholarship, a write up of experiences that you want to share with the admission committee, IELTS and TOEFL exams and the like. It was the most tedious fifteen days because I had to come up with a lot of documents. My parents played a huge role in this by reading every single document I was preparing for admissions. I asked few of my friends to read my SOP and I remember submitting the revised SOP no. 15 to the admissions committee.
I don’t believe it is difficult to get into foreign universities for a non-NLU student. I have classmates, friends and juniors who are from non-NLU colleges but made it to elite institutions, some with scholarships. When it comes down to how to go about applying for universities, I believe it’s all up to how much you can open up to the admissions committee and how well you have spread your ideas in that one paged word document. As a very good friend and mentor for this process told me, “I don’t want to know what it is already there in your resume. I want to know what is beyond it, which is in your mind.”
Please describe to our readers the experience of studying at both these elite institutions.
It was a great experience studying in both NYU and NUS. Our term started in May, so the first three months were purely for NYU subjects. The NYU faculties fly in to Singapore and the subjects we choose are taught for two or three weeks depending on their credit. It is a little intensive since the subjects are studied over these weeks without any break for three hours every day. In NUS, apart from the intensive subjects which follow the same pattern as those of the NYU, each course you choose is taught once a week for three hours. So the NUS way was a bit more relaxed.
However, irrespective of the Universities, we have spent nights in the study room preparing for classes next day or finalizing papers for submission. I have been part of a week-long group paper submission, a 24 hour typed out exam, paper submissions, presentations, three hour exams, and even practical exams. I really learnt time management, prioritizing work and understanding how much was my capacity. Apart from studying, NYU and NUS celebrate certain festivals and occasions and arrange for guest lectures and alumni gatherings. Having classmates from all over the world helps you to develop personally, increases your patience and gives you lots of memories. In a nutshell, it was a great year of learning in every way.
You have the experience of editing and writing for law journals. Please share your experience with our readers.
(Akshata was the Student Editor at the Singapore Law Review)
The Singapore Law Review (SLR) is managed exclusively by the students from the Law Faculty of the National University of Singapore. They have a two-step selection process which involves filling up of an application form along with submitting any article you have written. After being shortlisted they would call you for an interview. Being part of SLR mainly involved editing articles submitted by peers and also contributing write ups for their monthly newsletter. In India, I had never been part of an editorial board, I was always the one writing and submitting to the board. Therefore I can’t draw comparisons. However, it is more strenuous work than writing an article. Understanding and dividing the content of the paper as descriptive or analytic, grammar issues and citing concerns (most of us know them by the name of ‘bluebooking’), takes time and involves the need to understand what the writer has tried to convey through his paper.
How valuable do you think the Master’s degree has been for you? How do you think it has added to you professionally and personally?
Master’s has definitely been valuable for me. The whole experience changes your way to perceive and understand how a particular idea or in our case how a law works. Professionally I wanted to develop my career and my interest in corporate law, especially M&A, and this made me do my master’s.
Master’s helped me to channelize the area that I wanted to expertise in. For me both my master’s degrees have indeed increased my knowledge, professional skills and even perhaps boosted my confidence. I gained a clearer insight into how the law firm industry works in Singapore, and through meetings with alumni I created invaluable contacts with some key people. You always end up learning something or the other from the university alumni meetings. Personally, I have made a lot of friends and learnt about various different cultures. It has changed my acuity and the way I look at things now is more logical and with a wider perspective.
How did you go about achieving the feat of being awarded the NYU-NUS Dean’s Award?
While preparing the documents for application, we had an option to apply for the scholarship as well by writing a scholarship essay. The NYU@NUS Dean’s Award is a merit-based award given to students who have demonstrated significant academic promise and/or achievement in their respective fields. With my offer letter, it was informed to me that I have been given the Dean’s Award. I am not in the position to explain how I was given this award, however, I believe with good scores one really needs to be involved in other co-curricular and extra-curricular activities. Whatever you do in the five years of law school definitely helps at a later stage.
How did you join a reputed foreign law firm after your Master’s course?
(Upon completing LL.M, Akshata joined Dacheng Wong Alliance LLP as an Associate [Foreign Lawyer]).
I interned with Dacheng Wong Alliance LLP in the winter break. I continued doing some research work for the firm during my second semester with NUS. Due to my course structure, I had only three subjects that semester. This gave me enough time to continue with that work. And before the course got over, I was offered an opportunity to join DCWA. I now work for the South Asia practice of the firm.
What is an average day like at a multi-national law firm like Dacheng Wong? Is work-life balance a problem?
An average day in DCWA is involves attending to clients from Singapore and China and preparing draft agreements for ongoing transactions. Since Singapore is ahead of India in time, by afternoon after lunch, we need to cater to the Indian Clients. Most of the work is preparing agreements and providing legal opinion under Indian Law. Work-life balance is really not that difficult to maintain. The firm works on priority basis. So we try finishing most of our work during office hours, but if required, work has to be completed over the weekends.
Do you believe that a Master’s is a must for lawyers seeking international exposure, and joining a foreign law firm?
It is definitely one of the ways to seek international exposure but not the only way. For joining a foreign law firm, students in their final year can apply to foreign law firms under the training contract. However, to seek an international exposure study wise, doing master’s allows you to meet a variety of people, develop your understanding from a different view and gives you a wholesome development.
How different is the work culture in Singapore from India? Are law firms in Singapore better managed?
Work culture in both the countries is similar to each other. The difference is the fact that Singapore is open to international firms so this raises the bar for performance because of which there is a competition for giving out best results. Singapore also gives a wider scope in terms of involving a lawyer in laws related to other countries. I have myself been part of teams that work with the laws of most of the Asian countries apart from the laws of India.
In Singapore, people are of different ethnicities, we not only dealing with Chinese clients, but also Malays and Indians along with Europeans and Americans. So work ethics differ from person to person. A person is expected to keep himself/herself updated. However, when it comes down to working, the 9 to 6 work hours are really not followed, which is something similar to the working style in India.
Although international and domestic firms are organized and efficient in their deliveries and performances, the international law firms are better managed than the domestic firms in Singapore and India, since the headquarter is in a different country and managing the law firm worldwide needs specific staff with the right qualification. So the entire process becomes more crucial and highly scrutinized.
What is your view on the entry of foreign law firms in India?
Entry of foreign law firms in India is more of a tricky situation. I personally think it might be a loss for an Indian firm if a foreign law firm enters into the Indian market i.e. the foreign law firm is allowed to practice Indian law. There might be issues that established law firms in India could face starting with work culture. There is a basic difference on how transactions are handled in India as compared to other countries. I did find a difference in the training provided to me in India and the training I was given while working in Singapore. However, this is just my point of view. There might be a possibility that the foreign law firms actually help in the growth of the industry if they work together with the local firms.
Would you have any parting words of encouragement for our readers who would like to follow your footsteps?
My mom was the biggest inspiration during my testing times. She said one thing that I would like to share, “work hard for these five years, and then enjoy your remaining years.”
Just do what you feel is correct. Explore your five years in a way that you don’t regret not trying any extra-curricular or co-curricular activities. One can utilize every semester break to intern, to do summer courses. Surprisingly, now I feel five years is less of a time to understand and achieve things. Law school is tough, it’s competitive but it is not impossible to utilize the time spent in law school successfully. It’s been a few years since I graduated from Christ College and now when I look back, I know I have come a long way. And the pain was all worth it.
This interview was taken by: Amish Aggarwala, Advocate, Delhi High Court
Prof. Bhavani Prasad Panda is the Vice-Chancellor of Maharashtra National Law University, Mumbai. He graduated in LL.B from Lingaraj Law College, Berhampur, Orissa in 1979. Thereafter he went on to pursue higher studies in different disciplines of law.
Prior to his present designation Prof. BP Panda has held 16 other educational seats in various law institutes of India. He found his place as the Principal of NBM Law College, Professor of WBNUJS, Principal of Lingaraj Law College, Dean, Faculty of Legal Studies (BU), Chairman, Board of Studies Law, BU among others. He has numerous publications and has been an active member of different academic, executive and financial councils of various institutions till date.
In this interview we talk about –
Studying Physics in his graduating years at SKCG College, Odisha.
His journey through Behrampur University, Odisha – as a student and later as an academician
Being the Vice-Chancellor of MNLU
Case study of “Super-Cyclone”: a major research conducted in the aftermath of the 1999 disastrous cyclone in Odisha.
Journey from Assistant Professor to Professor at WBNUJS
Advise to the future legal academicians of India
Tell us about your educational background before college as well your graduation years at SKCG College, Odisha.
My early childhood education was conducted at the Government school of Paralakhemundi, Gajapati District, Odisha. Later on up to intermediate studies got educated at Visakha Tutorial College and at the very reputed Mrs. AVN College of Visakhapatnam in Andhra Pradesh.
I studied graduation with physics honours from S K CG College, Paralakhemundi, Gajapati District, Odisha. and remained active in college politics during the emergency period of 1975-76. Failed to get good score at B.Sc (Hons.) consequently, also failed to get a seat in M.Sc Physics at the local University. And due to financial difficulties could not go to other universities to pursue Physics. Under ‘no way out’ situation joined LL.B. at Lingaraj Law College, Berhampur University with a lot of hesitation, reluctance and guilt. Nobody at the house appreciated my joining Law College. My family members expected that I should study science and get into a good job.
How did your interest gravitate towards law?
Adding to my ill mood for joining law, the law college was located in a shabby, dilapidated building in a hospital premises, reflecting a nauseate feeling of the surrounding. The college used to function from 7:00AM to 12 Noon with hardly 2 (two) professors on its roll. The whole environment at Law College was far from academics and my previous experience of educational institutions with best of institutional structure. However, in the damp atmosphere after resigning to my fate started attending classes, soon I got involved with legal education and also once again became active in college politics for obtaining better amenities, facilities, environment and making issue for increasing number of teachers to the college.
You completed your LL.B from Behrampur University, Odisha. Tell us about your law school journey.
Formerly, being a student of Physics there were many advantages like groomed to be analytical, logical, practical and disciplined. These learning habits when invested on legal education there were encouraging returns. The books of law, literature, political theory inspired me very much for getting seriously involved in legal education. Reading books of literature, and political science at the law college library was a rare opportunity for a physics student. Soon I realised that there is enough world beyond physics and science, and learning law and studying political science is more nearer to understand life, society and the state craft. Within few months at the Law College, it appeared that the Law College Library is a luxurious space that propelled the appetite for knowledge. Thrilled by the first lessons of law, jurisprudence, political theory started reading biographic of legal luminaries and political scientists. Pleasure of reading books doubled with reading of conceptual basis of the state, citizen and the law. This was a sort of self relishing, and purely a voluntary involvement. Developed unconsciously a habit that after reading a book, to search for someone and narrate what has been read, before reading another book. Soon created a circle where the political issues, jurisprudence were debated passionately. So also reported judgments were argued as if things happened there and the impacts can be many.
The legal education appeared to be the real subject and precisely for which I was meant. I felt tremendously satisfied that I was studying law. Often entered into debate that legal education and legal profession is meant far more responsible persons with flair in social work, statesmanship; and it is holistic scholarship with heritage of literature, politics, sociology, economics, history and skills of advocacy. But unfortunately in India pupil join to law when they find rejected elsewhere. Sometimes I was successful in convincing people with my arguments and sometimes I used to return to study more to logically establish my point.
To supplement the economic needs, part time tuition to school children up to +2 level were taken up and learned to be independent without bothering parents about finance, as many of the students in Odisha do.
We know you have been a consistent top scorer in all subjects. Tell us a bit about it.
At the end of the first year of Law, it came as surprise for scoring highest mark in four subjects out of six and got nominated as the best student of the law college. Teachers became friends and got opportunity to spend more time among teachers’ company. During the second year of LL.B, I started taking interest in teaching the first year students as and when the concerned teacher of the class remained absent. I always waited for the opportunity to teach in the classroom at junior class, and was accepted by friends for the purpose and started training colleagues for moot-court, other academic competitions as well as assisted friends for competitive examinations.
The inputs of labour to legal studies were hardly anything compared to studying physics at graduation level. From the remote distant of Berhampur, Odisha, the law college made it’s presence feel by bagging prizes in national moot-court competitions. At the end of 3 year LL.B studies, bagged all the gold medals meant for LL.B.
As a student of LL.B, with a mission to change the stigma to the prevalent legal education that is mired with mass-copy, last-option course, and things like that, I participated actively in college politics and got elected as President of the Students Union and achieved reformation in the examination system made it free from much tainted malpractice at Berhampur University. The State Government and the University Authorities were compelled to construct a new building with holistic infrastructure facilities for the Law College. The foundation stone was laid and accordingly a new building of the Law College was built, as a constituent College of Berhampur University, Odisha.
After the successful completion of your LLB degree, you obtained numerous other courses as well. Can you tell our readers about your timeline after Behrampur University?
I joined M.L at Andhra University College of Law in the year 1980, and after completion of the academic period of study, found it difficult to cope up with economic needs. Joined as a Commercial Executive in New Delhi, with M/s. Desein – Indure Group of Companies and got exposed to the industrial and commercial world in the country (1982-87).
During my period in Delhi, I obtained ‘Diploma on Corporate Laws and Secretarial Practices’, conducted by Indian Law Institute, New Delhi; (1982-83) and also studied M.A. in Politics at Andhra University by private appearance (1983-85). However, there prevailed an inner calling to get back to legal education/profession.
In the year 1987, with little struggle, I obtained the LL.M degree from Andhra University and decided to join litigations at Visakhapatnam, giving up the alluring job at Delhi, enrolled as an I advocate to practice at Visakhapatnam. More than the practice at the Court, the local Private Law College teaching assignments provided me satisfaction and I soon joined as the Principal of the NBM Law College.
While you were the Principal of NBM Law College, you had the opportunity of meeting Prof. Madhav Menon. Can you share your experience with our readers?
During those struggling (1988-94) years of making a quality Law College, I got the opportunity to meet Prof. N R Madhava Menon who practically provided a new orientation to the mission of life and the concern for legal education. In the refreshers course at NLSIU Bangalore, Prof. Menon gave all the participants a forum and provided an opportunity to interact with the legal luminaries of the country like Prof. Upendra Bakshi, Prof. N L Mitra, Prof. Ranbir Singh, Prof. B B Pande, Prof M P Singh, Prof. Chandrsekahran Pillai, Justice Krishna Iyer, Justice Hidayatullah, Justice Venkatachaliah, Advocate Ram Jethmalani, Advocate K K Venugopal, Advocate F S Nariman, Advocate Ranjit Mohanty and many others.
Professor Menon was perhaps least knowing that he was creating so many future Vice Chancellors like Balraj Chauhan, Gurjit Singh, B L Sharma, S K D Rao, B Nagraj, N K Chakraborty, V Hemalata, L Jaisree, Faizan Mustafa, including me.
We were all so fortunate to follow Prof. Menon both by letter and spirit. All of us value the learning at NLSIU, Bangalore which was of great help.
Later you enrolled for Ph.D working for “Adolescent Offenders” in 1990. Tell us about your experience.
I accomplished my Ph.D work in the year 1994. It was a total involvement for conducting research about adolescent offenders undergoing sentence at Visakhapatnam Borstal schools. I still feel the Borstal school system of reformation of adolescents up to the age of 23 is more mature and better system of institutionalisation and reformation compared with much acclaimed juvenile justice system. The country has not given free and fair opportunity to Borstal School System and is being neglected to perish under the eclipse of JJ Act.
Amongst your accomplishments in the legal journey, academia has been in the forefront. What were the platforms which contributed to this journey?
My best years of teaching and academic administration were at NBM Law College, Visakahapatnam, it provided a platform for me to experiment everything what I felt best with legal education including classroom teaching/ lectures. I found some of my school time teachers and schoolmates joined in the evening college, and were all committed to attend my classes. It gave me pride and satisfaction. The college made a record progress and best students of the area joined to enhance the credibility of the law college.
In 1994 joined as a Senior Lecture in Law at a premier University – Utkal University of Odisha. The M.S. Law College being the first Law College in Odisha manufactured about 90% of Advocates at the Odisha High Court, 80% of the Judges at the High Court and the subordinate Judiciary and also provided law degrees to 70% Legislators in the State of Odisha. But the College remained far behind to contribute any quality legal education. During the days of service struggled hard to change the environment for Faculty Members coaxing them to enrich with greater exposure and wider participations in Law Seminars and Conferences. Also struggled to initiate the All India Bar Council Moot Court Competition, at Cuttack which somehow could conclude in 1996, this to register the college name in the national list.
In 1996, joined as a Reader in Law at Post-graduate Department of Law, Berhampur University and actively participated in academic activities to modernise the prevalent out-dated courses and syllabus being taught and got occupied with the University System of Administration.
In the year 2000 joined NUJS Calcutta, as a Founding Teacher along with Professor N R Mahdava Menon to establish the National Law University. It was a great experience to work with Prof. Menon in the founding days of NUJS Calcutta. In 2002 after availing the lien period joined back to Berhampur University and this time worked hard to contribute to the development of the Lingaraj Law College. It was an amount of satisfaction to join as the Principal of the Law College, where I was a student, but there the struggle for quality development was much more. There was a little cooperation from any side. As a student leader achieved more success than as a principal of the law college. Dissatisfied returned back to the Post –Graduate Department of Law, Berhampur University.
Quickly finding little leisure time, I got engaged in conducting post-doctorial research studies and completed the work in 2006 obtaining LL.D degree from Berhampur University.
In the year 2008, after a renewed association with Prof. M P Singh, joined NUJS Calcutta, for a second stint after obtaining two years lien from Berhampur University, and actively participated in University activities both academic and administration.
In 2010 returned back to Berhampur University. Found it hard to contribute to the newer challenges to legal education and corresponding deterioration in educational standards vis-à-vis growing challenges participated actively in University general administration until 2014.
I took voluntary retirement to assume charge as Vice-Chancellor of MNLU Mumbai on 10.10.2014.
How did you strategize your work on legal research?
During the time I enrolled for PhD there were very few research guides available to provide the direction and supervise research work to its logical end.
Research in law for an academician is a must; we learned the first lessons about research at Professor Menon’s Workshop. Little learnt and much unlearnt but with a great zeal to contribute to society with legal knowledge enrolled for PhD.
Legal Research by itself a separate discipline and methodology was not fully grown. Every research teacher explained the conduct of research and thesis writing in quite differently, mostly bookish or very confused. The practical implementation of the learning from most of the teachers was very difficult or impossible.
I spent quite some time in contemplating how to start legal research. I read many books of sociological methods of research as I was planning to do research in criminal law, and I was not getting a clue how to go about – choosing topic, defining the research problem, setting goal and designing the research. I started diving straight into prison studies and later focused on adolescent offenders at Borstal School of Visakhapatnam. Read more and more existing literature on young adult offenders from books of criminology and law. It happened on its own motion that I could identify the research problem and formulated hypothesis and realised the roadmap of the research terrain. Essentially, research is an individual personal scholarship and involvement and there can never be any fixed straight jacket method and finite prescription from any supervisor. I realised why the teachers were so different and incoherent. It has to evolve creatively on one’s own involvement and provide strength of logic and reasoning to defend the thesis that is being advanced.
I was happy to contribute a unique work on adolescent offender in legal research. My involvement was little bit more than mere legal research work for PhD and emotional involvement with the staff, administration and inmates of Borstal School at Visakhapatnam. I continued to argue for eulogising the working of custodial system where any youth in conflict with law however heinous the crime may be put to reformation model maximum up to the age of 23years and was then allowed to assimilate in the mainstream of the society. The current controversy of 16-18years age group of juvenile stands fully addressed in the system, but unfortunately in India we never explore all the sentencing options before passing an order. Most of the legal fraternity do not know what the Borstal School System is about. The institution is under eclipse of Juvenile Justice System clout. I still hold that the young adults need be reformed in a specially designed institution like that of Borstal School System under Correctional Administration. The prison system cannot be condemned as ‘jail for penal action for hardcore convicts alone’. We need to change our prison into Correctional Houses.
Please tell our readers about the case study behind the ‘the Super Cyclone’ of 1999 in Odisha. Also tell us about your interest in ‘Disaster management studies’.
I was disturbed, and developed interest in observing the recovery phase and the human rights aspect of relief operation. The tragedy after super cyclone is more horrible. Crime rate increased. Hunger coupled with poverty loomed large. Funds were mismanaged. There were politics of funding and certification of ‘State v. Natural disaster’. There has been politics of centre and state in relief funding etc.
In 2000, soon after the Bhuj Earth Quake, Professor Madhava Menon assigned me with the work to make a case study of ‘Super Cyclone’, provided financial support for the project. Over next two years along with the work at NUJS Kolkata and Berhampur University devoted all extra hours to study on Super Cyclone and its various facets of devastation and legal support mechanism; conducted seminars and workshops and finally submitted a comprehensive report on ‘Case Study of Super Cyclone’ to NUJS Kolkata. In 2005, the Disaster Management Act was enacted, where the students and faculty of NUJS have contributed with the inputs of experience from Odisha Super Cyclone and Bhuj Earth Quake.
In 2005-06, at Berhampur University designed and offered one year Post-Graduate Diploma programme in Disaster Management, and I was surprised to see some of the students got appointed as safety officers in certain establishments.
‘Disaster Management Studies’ became my new found hobby. In October 2013, Odisha was struck with another very severe cyclonic storm called as ‘Phailin’. I was eager to serve the state in terms of offering schemes for ‘impact reduction’. And closely followed the state action for pre-emptive measures, Odisha was more matured after Super Cyclone 1999 left no space for disaster to tell upon human life. The preparations were well addressed and the meteorological department predictions were properly used. The disaster was contained to loss of property and loss of human life was only 34 almost negligible compared the size of the disaster spell.
Later you got associated with Odisha Fire Services Department to write a report on their “Response System”. Tell us about the new route of your life.
Taking time off from the University, with total commitment I conducted the report and the same was published by the OFS Department as a book. Odisha state government accelerated the process of establishing the Fire Station Offices at every block in whole of Odisha covering all the 335 blocks. The Fire Service Department of Odisha got equipped with all types of disaster rescue and management services; and with their experience they rendered a great service to the State of Andhra Pradesh when it was struck by the cyclonic storm called ‘Hudhud’ and got applauds from the State. Odisha Fire Service Department is one of the robust systems today to encounter disaster, it stays ever prepared. A department not being taken seriously by the states for services and/or for their contribution stands tall in Odisha. My recommendations in the report were to a certain extent useful for the government to strengthen OFS to its current status.
What were your personal takeaways from this experience?
I believe disasters provide a very good opportunity for everyone to contribute something to the fellow being. It is a signal to part something. It provides lot many lessons for ‘living and sharing together’. It strikes all the selfish aggrandisement and calls for community participation. It implants a renewed zeal and hope for newer and intelligent tomorrow, with life full of sacrifices. Natural Disasters are good and a challenge to humanity. One need be humane and human with fellow being, that is the way of life. I can speak on disasters for hours together how it can change life for good.
What is your perception on legal academia as a career? How would you guide the future teachers of India?
India needs good, committed, honest, hardworking teachers. Teaching is a passion. Teaching provides unlearning along with the students. Teachers need to be humble and skilful. Teacher is made with lot of sacrifices, the compensation is limited to ‘a good rejoicing class’. For a teacher, the best accomplishment the students should grow beyond the teacher and realise their dreams as a good human and responsible citizen of the country. In life everything deserved comes on its own for the person who works for others. And many more values of being a teacher, I have seen in my teachers, I respected them and loved to live like them. I still struggle in my pursuit to live like my teachers. These values chained me into teaching, and I am happy.
Teaching can be a wonderful career pursuit for it provides the satisfaction of living a life full of giving. Law teaching has to happen in a very refined and bigger way where the legal scholarship will flourish for justice education. Enough is still to happen, where men will learn to have a successful and contented life and pursuit of legal profession. We should be able to logically explain where one is at wrong side and what is due and appropriate. We should learn to respect the adversary. Advocacy has much to offer. Dispute resolution and peace are interconnected, and language of law should have that magic wand. It comes out of the human quality and character of the arbitrator.
For me a good class with full of students intimately and continuously involved in learning process is the fountain of pleasure. No wonder I am struggling to be a teacher like my teachers.
You have authored a number of research articles and books. Is there any inspiration which incites to pursue this?
Writing articles do not happen all the time. Nor writing a book is possible for writing book sake. There has to be a creative streak. One simple idea which allures one can be the matter of writing an article. The appetite should come from within, and the research follows, reading a lot of literature is necessary to understand what is it that one is so fond of and/or that keeps absorbed or disturbs the peace. It takes lot of time to reach to the material of choice, and in the pursuit the idea gets involved with other wonderful writings and scholarship; one need be dispassionate and remain focused from the beauty of other scholarly articles. Once the ideas get concretised and literature seems to be exhaust and one is updated with existing literature, one can venture to enter into substantiating the points of view and when someone is able to provide the logic and reason to establish the postulate, has accomplished a research article. This need be reviewed, and verified with fellow colleagues. Language of presentation should be simple to the core because the author stays miles away from his very important readers.
Ideally speaking, research articles should happen as often as possible. It provides a window to the world to look at the author and his view point while contributing to knowledge system.
I could write only very few articles with zeal and self involvement, while bulk were attended with a compulsion for contribution and participation at seminars and conferences; and / or contributing to the request of a fellow teacher. I always enjoyed writing in group, sharing views.
How important is it to attend seminars, conferences and workshops conducted by various legal luminaries while in law school?
Seminars, Conferences and Workshops at National Law Universities are really good ones and whereas at many of the state universities and law colleges it appeared ritual and a function of get together. The culture of a good seminar linked with scholarly exchange formally and informally during the time of seminar should emerge. Only serious minded people who have done their homework and are prepared to contribute with ideas can meaningfully participate. One should meaningfully gain from such participation and quantify in a scale of learning. Seminars should be a continuous affair with in the education system. There need be daily seminars and exchange of ideas. More informal seminars need to happen from voluntary groups of students on various issues of the nation, judgments delivered by the courts and newspaper reports. And the views can be published periodically appropriately.
At NUJS, once I did not feel attracted to a topic of seminar and chose to remain in library during the time. Professor Menon called me to his office and asked the reason for not being present in the seminar. And said “senior teachers have no choice to opt out of university seminars however disinteresting the topic may be’, there is a need to come out from the ‘disinterest’ in the realm of knowledge”. “Seminars are open forum for learning and more unlearning”, is the lesson that I learnt.
How was your teaching experience at WBNUJS?
Professor Menon exposed me to cooperative teaching. One of the first experiences to teaching and learning debut at NUJS was to co-teach with Professor Menon. We were addressing class on ‘legal method’, the subject provides the first glimpse of law to students. I made my preparations but in the class room the discussion went in a different paradigm to my preparation and I had little to participate in the partnership. I chose to vehemently oppose the postulates of law and found well attended by Professor Menon. The class went on very successfully. It is the kindness of Professor Menon, he praised me before everybody in the class. Later, he told me the techniques of cooperative teaching. I enjoyed cooperative teaching. Two–three teachers together can take up teaching together, and stage a script of substantial delivery of teaching and learning.
Case method of teaching is another exercise, which divides the class into groups for considered debate and yet another groups to sum up, while the teacher provides the conceptual finish as conclusion.
At NUJS we were encouraged all innovative models of teaching and learning process including on-field exercises at court hall, police station and other workstations. We never had any one method, depending on the topic requirement we adapted to different methods, mainly to drive out any monotony among the students. We used visualise and invent surprises for the students in our teaching exercises. We are happy we had great opportunity.
Do you think MNLU is having an edge over the other NLUs of the nation? What are the advantages which an NLU seated in Mumbai receives?
First the location advantage, that we are in TISS campus. The whole of campus, library, wi-fi system, the dining hall, the wisdom of the TISS faculty are at our hands reach. It is a unique privilege which no NLU student in India must have got in the very founding year. Thanks to TISS and the Hon’ble Chancellor Mr. Justice FM Ibrahim Kalifulla who have been instrumental in the understanding.
Secondly, Mumbai provides a unique opportunity with rich resource of very learned lawyers and retired judges who are always ready to assist the law students in their academics. Most of the advocates and other members of legal fraternity are associated with the local law colleges contributing their bit as part-time professors. MNLU Mumbai will be certainly tapping the best of the resources for its students too. There are the best of law firms in Mumbai and the students will be skilful enough to find a good exposure and can participate with them in their vacations. So also the whole field of legal practice and experimentation is open for the students in the corporate climate to look litigation from different perspective including alternative dispute resolution and arbitration experts. The students after five years from MNLU Mumbai will have mine of opportunity in Mumbai alone. For availing the interaction from the lawyers and judges, we are open on Sunday, it shall be our working day, and our weekly holiday will be Wednesday. This arrangement will provide students an opportunity to visit offices on Wednesday to collect material and right their project assignments.
Thirdly, the education at MNLU Mumbai will have to be geared up to make study a pleasant experience and at the same time competitive to take the challenges of life as a matter of fact. We are fortunate, that we have seasoned faculty from social sciences available at the immediate vicinity from TISS. We also have the support of professional counsellors from TISS, to guide and ease any blues. Apart from the teachers with in the campus, the students will have exposure to the best teachers from other institutions in India. MNLU Mumbai will have to make such arrangement until we develop our own cadre of best teachers. MNLU Mumbai will adopt various methods of teaching and imparting education as are essential and appropriate to a particular course, all option and autonomy will be given to teachers to make best of class work.
Fourthly, the first batch of the students will get ample opportunity to vent their skills and ideas and contribute to the student forums with facets of self-governance, student-bar council, moot-court bar association, student discipline committee, anti-ragging committee, welfare bodies, cultural club, athletic club, placement cell, and establish a system of student self-administration. Also associated along with the co-curricular activities they will have to design legal aid cell, arbitration house, disaster management cell, drafting committee and things like that.
MNLU, Mumbai – Jogeshwari Campus
Fifthly, MNLU Mumbai is not in competition with any institution, but it shall create for itself a distinct place in terms of its education skills, student discipline, teaching and learning process. The idea is MNLU Mumbai shall be a forum to provide space and opportunity for every member to enjoy their field of persuasion with a sense of satisfaction and reap rich dividends in legal scholarship. More than competitive achievements, the students will learn to enjoy their contribution to the society and nation, by steadily growing to reach to their set goals. Students will be the maker of the University for tomorrow. The administration shall facilitate the best practices to happen. The students will realise at the end of five years, the time at MNLU has given everything that they cherished in terms of legal scholarship, and they shall have to feel proud to remain connected to lead the institution to greater heights.
What would you like to share with students who are not from an NLU?
I feel sad when I look to the bulk of the law colleges, where students just manage to get degree foolishly without any substance and degrade the law degree. Lot many of them enrol as advocates without knowing what they are going to do. Some even manage to become judges of the lower courts and struggle hard to meet the demands of justice. The society suffers a lot out of their ignorance. A lot of measures need be taken to overhaul the traditional law colleges. Bar Council of India is struggling to change the system.
The above position being disastrous, a fine opportunity also awaits for a serious minded law student to bake his cake. If the studies are taken seriously in those law colleges with scanty of facilities, and goals are fixed to excel in that little sphere, there can still be space for continuing with that spree of perfecting on and on in life. The opportunity is that a sincere student can achieve easily the best among the deprived atmosphere. There is no short cut to success, but one should learn to enjoy harder task. Life should be full of pleasantness, which emanates from knowledge alone. In the world, there is enough for everyone to pick and remain content as long one realises one’s own ability to carry.
Gitanjali Ghosh graduated from North Eastern Hill University (NEHU), Shillong (2013). In law school she has interned with NHRC and was adjudged as the best Mooter at Henry Dunant Moot Court Competition. In 2014, Gitanjali completed her LL.M from NLSIU, Bangalore and has joined NLU-Assam as faculty. Along with teaching, Gitanjali is pursuing her Ph.D from NLSIU.
In this interview she talks about:
Law school experience at NEHU.
LL.M from NLSIU, Bangalore.
Internships, mooting and her dream to opt teaching as a career.
How would you introduce yourself? Tell us a bit about your pre-college years. What motivated you to study law?
I hail from a town called Mangaldoi in the state of Assam. I finished my schooling from Don Bosco High School in my two and +2 from Cotton College in Guwahati. I went on to pursue B.A. LL.B. (Hons) from NEHU, Shillong and LL.M. from NLSIU, Bengaluru. Currently, I am also registered as a Ph.D. Scholar at NLSIU. Professionally speaking, I would like to introduce myself as an Assistant Professor of Law at the National Law University, Assam where I am also associated with the Centre for Child Rights. I am a very simple, family loving and God-fearing person. I have my fair share of undesirable traits but in all I try to be a good person. I was good at academics right since my ABCD days but I thoroughly enjoyed my school days, despite all the pressure of doing well in Board exams to getting into whatever it was that I wished to pursue, thanks to my friends. I was not great at sports but I did pretty well at cultural events.
Studying law, I would say, must be due to pure genetics (my parents are lawyers). On a serious note, I always wanted to be a teacher, never a lawyer or a judge or anything else for that matter.As I grew up, my inclination towards pursuing law followed by a career in academics was but natural. Honestly, there is no particular thing that I can pinpoint as my motivation.
How would you describe your time at NEHU? Tell us about the academic environment and faculty at the law department of the University.
I had a wonderful time at NEHU as well as the city it is situated in i.e. Shillong. You have to be there to understand why. It is truly the ‘Scotland of the East’. We were the fourth batch to be enrolled in the Department of Law, NEHU and in many ways, we were better off than our seniors in terms of infrastructure, hostels, teachers, library etc. However, we had our fair share of difficulties as well. The academic environment at NEHU is not as hectic as we see at law schools but a lot of effort is put into by a majority of the faculty members in ensuring that the students learn law and are clear with the basic concepts.
Did you take part in extracurricular activities? How important do you think that extra-curricular activities are to a law student?
I believe, in today’s world, where recruitment is largely based on one’s curriculum vitae, extracurricular activities are very important for any student. Apart from this, as the saying goes, all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy (law-related extracurricular activities are everything but play). Also, extracurricular activities help one in gaining confidence as well as exposure.
During my preliminary years, I did not have any information about the scope available to a law student, which readily resulted in my lack of inclination towards these activities. Hence, I spent a lot of time on my academic endeavours. My primary objective was to do well in my studies (I was the gold medallist of my batch) and most importantly, learn the basics of as many papers as I could and be thorough with the papers I wished to pursue further (it is not possible to learn every paper thoroughly). However, with the coming of Internet into my life or should I say with the learning of its proper use, things changed (it was difficult to get even phone signals during my initial years at NEHU). I don’t have a long list of activities that I participated in but I participated in the Henry Dunant Memorial Moot Court Competition where I was adjudged the ‘Best Advocate’ and our team was ranked 5th (a big thanks to our teacher who guided us and my dear teammates).
Do you believe that excellent CGPA is absolutely necessary for success?
It may not be absolutely necessary but its importance cannot be negated at the same time. A decent CGPA gives the much-needed boost to those students who may not be the toppers of their class but do well in other extracurricular activities.
What were your areas of interest during your graduation? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?
International law and human rights are two areas for which I have nurtured great interest ever since I was pursuing B.A. LL.B. (Hons.). I went on to pursue LL.M. in Human Rights and currently, I am engaged with the teaching of these subjects as well. The only way of developing your knowledge and expertise in any subject is to simply read, read and read.
Did you do any internship during your graduation? Did you receive any assistance from your college?
Apart from the regular internships with advocates, I interned with the National Human Rights Commission, New Delhi where I won the Best Intern prize.It was a great experience. Department of Law, NEHU did not have any policy to assist students with their internships but the faculty members were kind enough to right letters of recommendation and help in any other manner within their power.
What do you have to say about the supposed ‘elite’ tag attached to certain law schools? Do you believe branding of college is something that’s very relevant/ important at any stage in a law student’s career?
I don’t think ‘elite’ is the right word to describe these institutions because they were not born elite. Both the faculty and the students of these institutions have made several efforts to bring name and fame to these institutions.
Given the scenario in today’s time, the brand name of one’s college has indeed attained a position of relevance in a student’s career. While students from renowned colleges are automatically presumed to be good at what they do, students from the not so renowned colleges have to put in a lot of effort to be able to create such presumption in their favour.
When and how did you decide to pursue Masters? Was it a professional requirement or an endeavour out of academic interests?
I had decided to do pursue Masters even before I joined Bachelors as I had made up my mind at a very young age to become a teacher, although I was not very sure of the subject. When I joined B.A. LL.B., it was only a question of time before I went ahead with Masters towards the fulfillment of my long cherished aim of becoming a teacher. You can call it a professional choice made on the basis of my academic interests.
You have done your LL.M. from NLSIU, Bangalore. Can you please share your experience at NLSIU? How will you compare the environment at NLSIU with that of NEHU?
I met some of the finest teachers, students and made some friends for life at NLSIU.Also, NLSIU gave me my first job as a Researcher at the Centre for Women and the Law. One year LL.M. was undoubtedly hectic and it gets over even before you think it has started but it was,although draining at times, an enriching experience. I am still associated with NLSIU as a Ph.D. Scholar.
Asking me to compare the pedagogy of NLSIU and NEHU are akin to asking someone to differentiate between their two eyes as both are my alma mater. It may not be actually fair to compare the two given the fact that they are majorly different from each other and represent two different kinds of institutions i.e. one being a National Law School and the other a traditional university.
Looking back, how significant do you think that your legal education was? When did you happen to experience the learning curve?
Well, I am still a student of law but the legal education I have pursued until now has been quite fruitful in terms of both learning as well as career. However, the main significance of my legal education lies in the fact that I have not lost my interest in it and indeed, have found areas of law, which I am quite interested in pursuing further. Further, with my Ph.D. thesis, I wish to contribute to the largely unexplored field of tribal customary laws and with my teaching, I wish to help students to not only learn but also to retain their interest in learning law.
I really cannot pinpoint a certain point of time or situation when I experienced the learning curve. It has been a continuous process, I believe right since I started studying law.
When did you exactly decide to take up teaching as your profession? Has it become easier or more difficult for you to understand the psyche of young students in this process of teaching?
As I have already said, I always wanted to become a teacher. I cannot recall the exact time I made this decision but as far as I remember, I have always considered teaching as my profession and nothing else. Given the fact that I was myself a student not two months back and that most of my students are my brothers’ age, it has been very easy for me to understand the psyche of my students.
Please tell us about your experience with regard to your first year of work as a PhD scholar at NLSIU? What kind of researches you were entrusted with?
Well it has not been a year since I registered for Ph.D. at NLSIU but in this period of time, I have had an enriching experience in my many roles as a Research Scholar, a Teaching Assistant as well as a Researcher at the Centre for Women and the Law at NLSIU. Also, given the fact that I was the youngest in the class, I learnt a lot from my fellow scholars during our course work.
As a Research Scholar, the only research one is required to do is on the topic chosen for writing the thesis. However, the Course work requires one to study Research Methodology and Computer Applications as well.
Please tell us about the requisite soft skills which are essential for a young teacher to build a successful career?
Apart from a thorough knowledge of the subject that one is entrusted to teach, being humble and humane towards one’s students is of utmost importance. A teacher should always give due regard to the fact that she/he was also once a student and no matter how many years pass, there are certain issues which are common to the students at all times and those need to be addressed humbly and patiently.
Do you feel that there are differences between students of ‘elite’ law schools and students from other law colleges and traditional universities?
Students are same everywhere but the opportunities available to them make all the difference. I have studied at an elite law school and also at a traditional university. I do not know about others but I could definitely perceive a change in my life. While at NEHU, I had to tell people what NEHU is (That’s ok) but where is NEHU (Shillong? Where’s that? This was frustrating. Geography and G.K. are probably not well taught these days at school). However, these questions disappeared with NLSIU (what a relief). On a more serious note, there is a common misconception among students from traditional universities that law school students are better than them (I too had this misconception) and even among law school students whose law schools are not ranked higher in the law school rank lists and owing to this misconception, they suffer from lack of confidence. In short, opportunities and confidence are the two major differences.
What are your views on the future of Indian legal education? How would you suggest that a law student manages to stay ahead?
Indian legal education has a bright future ahead but sadly, for only those who can afford the top-most institutions. There are many a good students who will loose a lot owing to this unfortunate situation but that does not mean that they should be discouraged from taking up law. CLAT is not the only way to success although it might seem to be the easiest.
Going by my own experience, a law student should be informed and thanks to the technological advances, she/he no more requires the college notice board for this purpose. Information is power.
If you could list out 3 activities which on a scale of priority, should be at the top in any law student’s school-life, what would those be?
Make friends for life (it has nothing to do with law but will help you survive law school and life)
Concentrate on Academics
Writing research papers and extracurricular (as per one’s interest and capability)
What would be your advice to young law students? How do you think that they should approach their career?
Have a lot of fun while at law school but take care not to jeopardize your academic and extracurricular interests in the process. As clichéd as it may sound, but, sincerity and hard work are the essential requisites for an amazing career (a bit of good luck as well).
Manojna Yeluri is a graduate of the 2010 batch of National Academy of Legal Studies and Research University (NALSAR). She started working at the Bangalore office of Amarchand & Mangaldas & Suresh A Shroff& Co. (AMSS), right after graduating. She soon left her job to pursue her Masters in Entertainment, Media and Intellectual Property Law at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA), in the year 2011.
Since returning, she has founded Artistik License, an organisation specialising in the rights of artists, entrepreneurs and other creative professionals. She is also a Business Development Consultant at Vahura, a legal recruitment firm, and this year, she held the post of Content Curator and Co-ordinator at Construkt Festival 2015.
In this interview, Manojna opens up about:
What made her choose to pursue Entertainment and Media Law, despite having a job at the largest law firm, AMSS;
The application process to UCLA, as well as the importance of a Statement of Purpose (SoP);
Her work experience at Artistik License, Vahura and ConstruktFestival 2015.
Whatmade you choose Law as your profession? Is there anyone else in your family who works in the legal field?
To be fair, pursuing a career in law was not my first choice. Growing up, I was led to believe that I could pursue a career in any field so long as I worked hard at it and made a good living from it. By the time I decided to give law school a shot, I had already thought of becoming a biologist (a thought I abandoned after my 10th standard experience with Chemistry and Physics) and later, I sincerely wanted to pursue a career in Sociology and Psychology. Things didn’t quite work out the way I planned, which just goes to show you that you can’t always foresee and plan for everything. Following my 12th standard Board Exams, I ended up moving to Bangalore because of my father’s job, and during a very very brief stint at Mount Carmel College, decided that perhaps law school would provide me the kind of opportunities I wanted, particularly in the realm of Humanities. My father and grandfather (my dad’s father) are both law graduates who did not practice, but ended up using their legal knowledge in their careers as Government officials. My other grandfather (my mum’s dad) is a retired Police officer, who has always had a strong love for criminal law. I do have family in the legal profession – specifically my cousins and my father’s uncle (an astute man and a retired Judge),who have all made, and are continuing to make an impact in the legal world through their own efforts and contributions.
For all practical purposes though, I really am a first generation lawyer in my tiny nuclear family.
What was life likeas a law student at NALSAR? How did your five years in the university influence your personal growth?
My years at NALSAR are definitely some of the most eventful and insightful, and I pretty much carry memories and lessons from my time at law school, into everything I do. When I was studying at NALSAR, things were a bit different – we were a lot more interested in actually meeting one another and since we were so far away from thecity (nearly 35 kms away) and living on a student budget, I think many of us found ourselves more deeply involved in campus life than we expected to be. For me, it was a wonderful and scary time, since it was the first time I was staying in a hostel, but any hesitations I had were eradicated thanks to the friendships Imade – some of which have evolved into strong relationships that I turn to in times of joy and crisis.
One of the most important lessons I learnt in NALSAR is that life is what you make of it. As individuals, many of us have access to several opportunities, however,there are only a few who choose to truly make the most of them. Looking back, there are a few things Iwish I had done, and there were many batchmates, seniors and juniors who displayed enthusiasm, initiative and creativity that I never thought was possible – so I have to say that law school can be quite an inspiring place so long as you know where and who to look to.
As an institution, NALSAR offers its students a wide array of opportunities, but then again, as I mentioned earlier, it’s upto you to make the most of it. Besides my time on campus, I also ended up learning a great deal about myself thanks to a Student Exchange Programme I took part in just as I entered my third year of law school. I had a blast at Griffith University, Brisbane and it was really a professor there and his courses that sowed the seeds for my fascination with entertainment law.
Did you take part in moot court competitions? How important do you think are such competitions for getting acceptance for Masters in the USA?
I was not a mooter. I’ve admired mooting, but only from a distance. In my experience, mooting requires a skill set and an emotional endurance that I’m not sure I had, or was really interested in developing. When I was in law school, I remember hearing that conferences and publications were far more important than Moot court competitions when it came to applying for a Masters, however as we all know, that’s not always true. Moot court competitions help develop certain qualities that are very important to a career in law, however, as is the case with everything, I’m not entirely sure that there’s a fixed formula that states that Moot courts or conferences might considerably increase one’s chances of admission into a Masters program anywhere – I think what matters is ensuring that one’s Statement of Purpose is tight, sincere and clear.
At a time when most people primarily focus either on Litigation or on Corporate Law, what turned you to Entertainment, Media and Intellectual Property Law?
It’s funny that I embraced my fascination for Entertainment law and IPR only after I left law school, since I might have been able to do more while I was at NALSAR. I did bite the bullet and make the initial foray into the world of corporate law for a very brief period of time. Isat for recruitment and was picked up by AMSS (Bangalore) and believe me when I say that at the time, Iwas overjoyed and excited because I thought “Hey! My life is set now”. Shortly after joining AMSS, I found myself increasingly reading up on Entertainment law and IPR and when finally my curiosity couldn’t take it anymore, I chose to leave to pursue a Masters in either Entertainment or Media law. It wasn’t a very easy decision though – working in corporate law brings with it, its set of privileges, like a solid income and respect, and foregoing that, especially when you’re a fresher in the job market, seems a tad bit risky. However, I did receive a great deal of support from my folks, particularly my mom, who really helped me during such a difficult transition.
Were your internships mostly related to Media/IPR law? Which was the most enriching internship experience for you?
Most of my internships were not consciously oriented towards Media/IPR law because all through law school, I had convinced myself that I was probably going to become a corporate lawyer. I had interned in almost every holiday break and because I always wanted to keep my options open and balanced, I ensured I did one corporate internship followed by one NGO internship. My most memorable corporate law internships were at JSA, Bombay and Luthra&Luthra, Bombay because of the kind of experiences and learning that happened. With respect to non-corporate internships, my internship at Majlis, Bombay (run by Flavia Agnes) and Loksatta, Hyderabad were instrumental in teaching me a lot about the interaction between law and content-creation. My serious Entertainment/IPR law internship only happened years later during my time at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA), at an independent film studio (NuMedia), run by a lawyer. Nestled in the middle of Hollywood, it was a pretty cool way to learn about entertainment lawyers and the industry.
How did you choose to pursue your masters at University of California, Los Angeles?
The University of California, Los Angeles or UCLA is considered the best school in the world for the Entertainment, Media and IPR law programme. To be honest, that’s one of the major reasons I wanted to pursue a masters there. I had applied to two other schools that year – SOAS and LSE, and I was fortunate enough to have gotten accepted into both but my heart was set on UCLA because of how well structured its Entertainment law program and department was.
I think that it’s always important to choose to pursue a Masters or any degree at an institution that has developed a great reputation and infrastructure to teach the subject that one wants to pursue a higher education/career in. A lot of people wondered why I had chosen UCLA, and the answer is actually very obvious – it’s the best place in the world to study Entertainment law. UCLA had an entertainment law department that had some wonderful faculty who brought years of experience from Hollywood and other international entertainment industries, into the classroom. Imagine being able to study about being a lawyer with a record label from someone who actually worked with Capitol Records and works with Warner Brothers – that’s exactly what UCLA offered me, and in my opinion, it’s that kind of specialized focus and infrastructure that actually helps students gain a more informed and insightful understanding of the area of study they are focussing on.
How did you go about your application to UCLA? What are the prerequisites to applying to a university in the USA?
I would love to say moots, conferences, publications, solid recommendation letters, extra-curriculars during law school, internships – the works, but I think at the end of the day what matters the most is clarity. One needs to be very clear about why one wants to pursue higher education at a university in the USA and that clarity needs to translate itself into a well structured, well written and sincere Statement of Purpose. I’ve always been a bit of a nerd and so pursuing a Masters was always something I wanted to do, and perhaps accordingly, I ensured that I had a fair balance (not a lot – emphasis on the word fair) of conferences and internships, however even the greatest recommendation letter in the world cannot substitute for a good Statement of Purpose. I definitely took time out to focus and re-write my SoP which I think also had a huge role to play in securing some financial assistance for my education. It’s also good to understand why you want to study further – a few people I know have referred to their LLM year as a holiday year- I have no idea what they are talking about. Studying abroad is a memorable but potentially difficult experience where you have to get used to studying a whole new jurisdiction while ensuring that you cook edible meals and live on a shoe-string budget. However, coming back to the prerequisites of applying to a US university, it’s always good to focus on a good SoP, good and relevant recommendation letters and research.
After having completed your masters in the USA, what made you come back to India, especially since Entertainment, Media and IPR Law is a more established arena there?
I’ve always been an art-lover at heart and I’ve been fortunate enough to know and meet some wonderful artists living and working in India. While I love to travel and experience new cultures, a part of me always has to come back to India so in a way, I’m a bit of a boomerang. A career in Entertainment law in the US, particularly LA would have definitely been a lot more sensible and exciting in some ways, however there were many practical and cultural factors that influenced my decision to head back. For starters, opportunities in theUS legal market were scarce and I felt that the efforts to pursue a career there far outweighed the benefits. India also offered so many opportunities with its own big entertainment industry, my relationships with artists and creatives back home and most of all, thechallenge of doing something a little different in your own backyard.
How has your Masters from UCLA affected your career in the long run? Do you think a person without a similar Masters degree from a foreign university would face significantly lower chances of success in the Indian market?
Contrary to popular belief, there are quite a few Entertainment and Media lawyers in India and we are not an endangered species at all. There’s an age old debate about whether higher education outweighs experience or vice versa, and the truth is the best chance one has is by achieving a balance of the two. My LLM at UCLA has had a profound impact on the work I do because of many things I learnt and experienced during my time in LA. Whether it’s having achieved a deeper appreciation for artist rights, a more wholesome understanding of copyright law and licensing, or just a greater awareness of all thedifferent kinds of law that Entertainment law encompasses (IPR, Labour law, Contracts, OSH, Tax), my masters from UCLA has definitely shaped the way I perceive issues facing my clients and theindustry I work with. Having said that, I can’t say for sure if a foreign degree would necessarily increase the chances of success in the Indian market, but it might provide one with much needed perspective.
After returning to India, you founded Artistik License. Please tell us more about it. How was the experience of building up your own start-up?
I’m still building it up, and I think it’s going to be a lifelong project of mine. After returning to India, I chose to work with CLPR – a research think tank based out of Bangalore, in order to gain more experience as a research associate. However, there came a point where I felt I ought to be doing more work in Entertainment law, and while Ilooked out for opportunities in Entertainment law firms and companies, nothing came close to what I really wanted to do – work with content creators, artists and creative entrepreneurs directly. So, after a lot of searching I decided that it was time to take a leap of faith, and start working independently. Artistik License started off as a blog or a repository of legalese for artists working in India – something which it still serves as today, but after some hard work and lessons, has evolved into a consultancy where I advise artists and creative startups on their rights, as well as provide them with specialized legal services. What really makes Artistik License different, is its focus on independent artists and startups. As an organization, it focuses on two tracks – enabling the independent artist and entrepreneur’s business by way of specialized legal advice as well as by empowering artists, and creative entrepreneurs through rights awareness workshops, discussions and research work.
Although I was really frightened at first, I think entrepreneurship was something that I was designed for. I had a great support system, comprising of my folks and my friends, who shared my fears and joys, and were a great sounding board for all my ideas. Building your own startup from scratch can be scary but rewarding,so long as you don’t bite off more than you can chew. Considering Artistik License’s niche focus, there was, and might always be, a certain amount of risk involved in what I do, however I can’t think of anything else I would rather be doing. The past two years have seen Artistik License’s clientele grow, and I’ve been invited to present my work at various domestic and international music markets, conferences and events.
Are artists generally aware of their rights? How can such awareness be increased?
Some are, and some aren’t; even then, the awareness can be incomplete. There are many factors that contribute to this situation of imperfect knowledge, including access to information and the communication of important information. It’s critical to ensure that artists are made aware of the need to understand why rights awareness is important, but then it’s just as important as law people, to enable that awareness in a manner that is chilled out, and not steeped in legal jargon. There are many ways in which awareness can be increased, and I work closely with many non-law organizations who want more artist rights empowerment. Workshops, discussion groups and online articles are a great way to get this valuable information across. Besides the Artistik License blog, I also write frequently for Campus Diaries (for the younger artists and entrepreneurs) and Indiearth (a platform dedicated indie artists in the Indian ocean region), on topics that might be of potential interest to artists and entrepreneurs alike.
Artistik License also organises workshops for disseminating knowledge on the subject. Would you consider engaging young law students in these workshops to help them learn along with the artists?
Of course! I can see creativity and entrepreneurship being an integral part of the law school experience, and it’s always a pleasure to engage and talk to law students from anywhere. I’ve been fortunate enough to have a wonderful time with some very intelligent, very quirky young law students from Christ College, Bangalore and NALSAR, who have been wonderful and so helpful by interning with Artistik License.
In between all this you have also been working at Vahura. When and how did you join Vahura? Please tell us about your work profile there.
My relationship with Vahura is both a new and old one. A few years ago, I worked with Rainmaker as a features editor, and a few months ago, I had the opportunity to start working with Vahura and its amazing team. At Vahura, I work with the Business Development and Clients Solution vertical, where I especially focus on business in the South Indian region. I enjoy the unique position of being able to interact with some of the smartest legal professionals and some of the best businesses and law firms in thecountry. A great deal of what I do involves networking and making connections – something I can’t get enough of. As an organization set out to help lawyers do good work, Vahura offers many services besides legal, tax, compliance and governance searches. It also provides strong counsel and research through its mentorship and consulting verticals. While we all help each other out at Vahura, another area that I work closely with is Vahura’s Engage vertical, which provides the legal community opportunities to interact with each other through various professional and community events.
What insights you would like to share with our readers from your experience in legal recruitments at Vahura?
My insights into legal recruitment are quite limited at this time, because a great deal of what I do concerns the overall legal market and business. There are others at Vahurawho have a more nuanced understanding of legal search business, and I would be more than happy to put any of your readers in touch with them. I can say this much – these are some exciting times for the law graduate, since I think we’re smack in the middle of an era where there really is something for everyone. So whether you want to be a corporate lawyer, a litigator, a legal academic or a legal entrepreneur, the industry is currently offering a lot of opportunities to pursue any career you wish, and if it’s some counsel and direction you’re looking for, we at Vahura are happy to help. This is probably my biggest learning from Vahura so far –an understanding that we’re far more focussed on helping legal professionals discover their full potential rather than simply place them in suitable positions.
You held the post of Content Curator and Co-ordinator at Construkt Festival 2015. How may startup festivals such as this prove to be important for a law student?
I was thrilled for the opportunity to work with Construkt 2015 and must express my gratitude to the festival’s founder, ShashiKiran, who is nothing short of an entrepreneurial powerhouse. Working with him and the Construkt team so closely taught me a great deal about entrepreneurship and the ways in which the right kind of platforms and infrastructure can truly help nurture a great innovation eco-system. I definitely think that more law students need to be open about attending such festivals where entrepreneurship is not only encouraged, but celebrated. For instance, Construkt 2014 and 2015 both celebrated legal entrepreneurship and innovation, by hosting talks by lawyers working in the field of law and technology, entertainment law and startup law. As the content curator for this year’s edition, I had a great time sifting through some amazing content by speakers, but it would be super if we could get more inputs and entries from the legal community as well.
How do you manage time between your two roles? Are you able to find a work-life balance?
A few days ago I heardsomeone say that we’ve almost taken it for granted that we’re supposed to struggle, hate our bosses and hate work. The truth is, that if we’re doing something we like,then we don’t even think about things like over-time, and being over-worked. At this point in my life, I am extremely grateful for the opportunity to be more than one person, and to do more than one thing. I’m surrounded by a number of inspiring people from the legal and creative communities (not that the two need to be exclusive), and I find a great deal of joy in what I do. Sure, it’s overwhelming at times and there are days when I just want to throw things at people, but I think the key is to achieve balance in whatever one does, and to remember that we are the best judges of our own situations. I also find that taking care of one’s body and mind goes a long way in ensuring that one can get more out of life. I’m not the fittest fiddle in the world, but over the past year, I’ve noticed that I consciously try to eat healthy, lead an active life and pursue my other interests including creative writing, glass painting, accompanying my musician friends to their shows, and understanding how to lead a more cruelty-free life. I’m a bit of a hippie at heart.
What is the one advice you would like to give our readers?
There is no formula to success. Years of conditioning in law school teaches us to assume that we need to fit into one mould or the other, but the truth is there really are no restrictions to the kind of opportunities one can tap into these days. It’s important to be brave and to seek good counsel, and to remember that it’s okay if you don’t fit into the traditional structures and expectations created by your family or the legal fraternity. It’s important to be honest in the work that one does, and to push aside the drama, no matter how tempting it is to overanalyse it. You can be a SuperLawyer just by being yourself, and working hard.
Sudhir Reddy graduated in LL.B from DES Law College, Pune University in 2009, after which he pursued his Masters from Cardiff University, United Kingdom. After completing his degree in Masters he worked in a law firm called Thodur Law Associates as an Associate Advocate. He also pursued a course of Civil/Commercial Mediation from Oxford and became an Accredited Mediator in 2014. At present, he operates his own law firm which has a practice of both litigation and corporate work.
In this interview we talk about –
Choosing International Commercial Law as his specialization for LL.M
Pursuing a course of Civil/Commercial Mediation from Oxford
Becoming an Accredited Mediator by 2014
Starting his own law firm “Reddy & Reddy Advocates and Legal Consultants”
Given that most of our readers belong to legal fraternity, how would you introduce yourself to them?
To start with I am a practising advocate mainly practising in the Pune courts and the Mumbai high court. I completed my LLB from Pune University and my LLM from Cardiff University, United Kingdom. I am also a certified civil and commercial mediator .I run my own law firm in Pune which deals with litigation as well as corporate work. However before starting the law firm I did work under senior attorneys at different High Courts so that I could earn some practical experience and confidence to start my own firm. My experience in Law is not just confined to the Domestic laws but I have also gained experience in mediation and negotiations in United Kingdom after completion of International civil and commercial Mediation course from Oxford.
Having done B.Com, what motivated you to choose law as a career? Or did it just happen?
To tell you guys the truth, my foremost aim was to become a lawyer but being from a business class family I had to learn certain aspects of commerce mainly accounts so that I would be able to put in my efforts in the working of my father’s established business. Also having knowledge in commerce helped me cater to my corporate clients in taking managerial decisions.
As a law graduate of Pune University, have you faced any comparison with NLUs? What would you say to the future graduates of Pune University regarding this?
I personally feel that these are all pre conceived notions that only the NLUS can provide the needed exposure to its students. Ultimately the laws are the same it’s up to the student how he/she decides on to shape up his/her life. I personally took the needed effort to attend various seminars and small conferences pertaining to law, held during my period at the law school. It’s the knowledge you imbibe that matters which should be practical as well as theoretical knowledge.
What were your areas of interest during your graduation? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?
As a law student I never wanted to confine myself to any particular area of law. My main aim was to absorb and learn everything which was taught to me during my classes and my internships .But I had always enjoyed negotiating and mediating any disputes and I realised I was good at it because I was always successful in solving a dispute. This made me realise that I had an inclination towards solving disputes in a peaceful and non-stressful manner. I did have keen interest in alternate dispute resolution systems and outside court settlement procedures and so I become a mediator.
What are your thoughts on activities like mooting, debating and publications in journals? What skills do law students acquire by engaging themselves in such activities?
I have always been of an opinion that in an all-round development of a student activities like mooting, debating play a crucial role. This is where the student develops its confidence and learns legal interpretation .Also these activities will help students in inculcating good research skills. The students also realise what exact field they should be taking up after college after doing these activities.
Right after graduating, you went for LLM. Why did you decide to go for higher studies?
Going for LLM right after graduation was my game plan since the time I joined my LLB course .My main intention for pursing LLM was to well equip myself with the international legal scenario.UK being a common law country I was sure that this experience will benefit me in expanding the horizons of my legal knowledge internationally .
How did you choose Cardiff University over others? How did you go about choosing a university?
The main reason to choose Cardiff University was that it is one of the royal charter universities and also one of the well ranked universities in UK. Along with that it had a beautiful campus and an apt course that attracted me to choose this university over others.
Why did you choose International Commercial Law as your specialization for LL.M? What motivated you to pursue your LL.M in International Commercial Law?
My course comprised of variety of subjects like international banking, competition laws, international corporate governance and World Trade organisation, which were entirely different than the regular curriculum taught to law pursuants in India. Also there was a wide range optional modules we could opt for hence I chose to peruse International Commercial Law.
What advice would you give to people who are trying to decide which area of law to specialise in?
Do your internships in all the fields. Participate in moots, debate, paper presentations and client counselling competitions. All this will help you understand your weak points and make you sure on what areas of law you like and what kind of practise you are good at.
After completing your Masters, you worked at Thodur Law Associates for an year as an Associate Advocate. How did you secure your appointment? Did you apply or got an offer from the law firm?
After my LLM I wanted to gain practical experience for getting myself acquainted with the procedural part of a legal proceedings, Thodur Law Associates is a law firm based in Mumbai practising at High Court hence there were larger chances of me getting a vast experience.
I had gone to Mumbai after I was back from United Kingdom to search for prospective law firms where I could actually gain practical experience. Coincidentally I met the senior partner of the firm, I narrated to him my reason for applying in the said firm, he was very impressed seeing my urge to learn and I was told to join right from the next day at their firm.
How did you overcome your initial jitters in a courtroom full of experienced lawyers and judges? Tell us about the highs and lows.
I am a supercharged guy since childhood, talking to unknown people, making new friends or being at a new place with new surrounding was never a challenge to me. But I still remember the first time I appeared in front of a judge was at the Bombay High Court. As soon as I stood up to mention the said matter I went blank and stood right in the same position for good one minute without a single word spoken. The judge sort of understood that I have frozen so he sort of covered up for me and told me to come next day.
And since then till now I have changed tremendously .Now I wait eagerly to appear at the court and to prove my point.
Thereafter, you have started your own law firm Reddy & Reddy Advocates and Legal Consultants and currently you are the Managing Partner of the firm. What prompted you to make this choice and start your own law firm?
It’s my father’s confidence in me which gave me the courage to start my own law firm. He has been the backbone of the firm since the day of the inception of Reddy & Reddy, Advocates and Legal Consultants. He has supported me when I needed encouragement and confidence the most. To be frank there were many to discourage but few to encourage. But somehow the voice inside told me to go ahead and prove it that I can do it.
Please tell us a bit about “Reddy & Reddy Advocates and Legal Consultants”. What is a day at work like? Is it easy to have a work-life balance?
My day at work starts with my morning prayer and then a quick workout. I am in the office quite early because I need to take quick updates about the distribution of the work to the associates for the day. I then go ahead and start with all my client meeting and if I have an argument for the day I take a quick look at the case and have fun leading the argument at the court. There are times when I spend the whole day in the negotiation for my corporate clients but having a remarkable team keeps me relived that my office functioning at its peak. I end my day at office by taking updates from all my associates along with a nice cup of coffee.
Tell us about the practice areas of Reddy and Reddy Advocates and Legal Consultants.
Reddy and Reddy Advocates and Legal is Based in Pune, it offers a full range of legal services on all aspects of the Indian law to a diversified client base, including well-known multi-national corporations functioning in India. In addition to serving our clients directly, our lawyers serve as experts of Indian law in both transactional and litigation matters. In particular, the firm has a strong practice group that specializes in mediation and negotiation, credit management, real estate, property & land laws. We are dedicated to our clients’ needs and we strive to achieve total satisfaction for our clients by legal excellence.
Our clients include major Banks, Non-Banking Finance Companies, Real Estate, Multinationals, Industrial Houses, and Software Companies.
The firm’s lawyers have an average experience of over 5 years in handling complex legal issues touching on almost all aspects of Indian law. We combine a personal approach with high professional standards and aim at providing comprehensive legal services to our individual, corporate, financial and commercial clients.
In the meantime, you have pursued a course of Civil/Commercial Mediation from Oxford and became an Accredited Mediator in 2014. What prompted you to pursue this course and became a certified Mediator?
Mediation is the next revolution in the legal field. Since our country is evolving in a very fast pace the people of our country want every issue to be resolved as fast as possible. Being a lawyer I have practically seen how burdened the court is with numerous cases. Before going for the course few of my clients had asked me if I knew any commercial mediator and that is when I decided why not me. I looked for few courses and I found the one in Oxford is what suits my requirements perfectly.
Meditation is already a very upcoming requirement for the multinational companies because they have clients all over the world and solving disputes outside the court is more convenient for them. Mediation is immensely into existence in the European and the western legal system. So it’s always better to do a course on mediation and negotiations it will surely help them in the future.
You have a couple of orders to your credit. Do they change one’s recognition?
(Sudhir has orders to his credit in criminal litigation, consumer disputes, land disputes, family disputes and outside court settlements in labour and industrial disputes)
It just makes me want to work even harder because I want to keep my clients always satisfied. My only aim is that when the client agrees to take services from us he/she attains the best of the services which my firm can provide.
Regarding once recognition, yes it does change the recognition as it shows experience a person has and the dedications the person has put in to get the desired results.
What were the difficulties you faced in the early days of your practice? How difficult would you say it is to build a reputable practice?
Early days were relaxed and peaceful. I did have work from the day I started my own office but the stress of uncertainty was always there. Although it will be wrong to say that the uncertainty is not present anymore because our firm is still in its growing stage.
I also want to say that it is quite difficult to build a reputation and then harder to maintain it, one really needs to have lot of patience in order to raise your own organisation from one level to another. You need to have a good team with you to run the show and thankfully at this point of time I have an awesome team who helps me, guides me and back me up everywhere.
Do you take interns? What do you look for in a prospective applicant?
Yes, we do take interns. When we get an application for internship we usually don’t see the scores and credentials of the student because we understand different universities have different ways of marking. We usually see the cover letter and the practical experience the applicant has provided in the application and most importantly the urge of the applicant to work and learn.
What would be your message to law students who dream of having their own law firm one day?
Never give up. Enjoy your failure because this is the way you are learning and this is how you grow as a person. According to me there are 4 stages involved if u want to start your own firm. At the first stage you have no work no money ,second stage only work no money at the third stage good work good money and finally the fourth stage less work only money.
Not necessarily it has to go the same way but that’s what it is like in the holistic picture. Be confident and kick off.
Aarthi Sivanandh graduated in commerce from Stella Maris College in 1997 before deciding to pursue law from Tamil Nadu Doctor Ambedkar Law University. Thereafter, she attended Tulane University (US) on a scholarship and graduated the masters course in corporate law with distinction. Soon after she worked in California briefly as a foreign legal consultant before returning to India in 2004. On her return to India she was part of the founding partner team for Universal Legal. In 2010, she co-founded ‘Vichar Partners’ which merged into J.Sagar Associates in April 2014.
In this interview she tells us about:
Degree in Law after commerce and subsequent international exposure
Building a corporate law practice in Chennai
Experiences in founding a law firm and its merger with Jyoti Sagar Associates
Role of a partner at one of the largest firms
Work life balance and necessary skills of a young lawyer
You are a B.Com (Hons.) graduate from Stella Maris College. How did you decide to join Tamil Nadu Doctor Ambedkar Law University?
I never envisioned myself as a lawyer. In my final year of undergrad college at Stella Maris, I had won an advertising competition that awarded me an internship offer at HTA. My mother promptly found me a friend of hers who was a company secretary who persuaded me to join the course lest I am lured by what they believed as the glamorous world of advertising. A short introduction to the intermediate course at the institute and I was captivated by law, thus the road to join the University in Chennai to pursue a degree in law.
Soon after completing LL.B., you went to pursue Masters from Tulane University Law School. Why did you decide to go for higher studies?
I was interested in corporate law but there were no law firms in Chennai in the late nineties, the city was flooded with court counsels. Litigation was the only thriving practice area and the city was well known for its stellar attorneys’ bar. I decided to visit Bangalore and Mumbai for an internship and found the firms there unwilling to entertain me except for one. It was a struggle to gain exposure to transactional or corporate practice. It was the time after an undergraduate degree when I was keen to discover the world, find new experiences. I had also won two scholarships to study abroad, so I decided to put them to use and get a Masters in Law degree.
Tell us about your LL.M year at Tulane. How did this influence your career?
My time at Tulane was rewarding and fun filled, both intellectually and personally. New Orleans is the third most interesting city in the US after New York and San Francisco; this drew me to choose the foreign lawyers LL.M program at Tulane. My class had almost 130 people from more than 25 countries. The historic city that had fought Spanish and French wars, its streetcar and Audubon park still alive from the 1840’s and a milieu of international students was the background in which my mind grew.–
The enriching dialogues and conversations between professor and student, the Socratic method of teaching, the non-judgmental easy ways that gave every attorney the time to compare how they learnt the law at their home countries and how they articulated themselves, changed my 23 year old mind at very fundamental levels.
Nothing was unacceptable in the system and there were no wrong answers, there were only ‘different’ answers – This was a huge change from the way I was educated in Chennai.
I learnt to respect other views, state my own clearly, be financially responsible, manage hard work, independence and be comfortable with strangers. I decided to work in the Valley on graduation and came home after 2 years. And like every person who returns home, I wanted to come back to Chennai and change the way people viewed the firm culture and practice of corporate law.
You have been a corporate lawyer for most of your career. What prompted you to take up corporate law? Share with us any experience which helped you to shape your career choices.
My late uncle was a real estate lawyer in the 80’s and my father though retired as a public prosecutor continues to work in dispute resolution on a range of matters. I would ask them where companies and others who ran businesses go for their work and they would both reply that those clients’ litigation needs were taken care of in the city but for ‘other work’ they would go to Mumbai or Bangalore or Delhi. While I enjoyed practising with litigation teams in the US (The Chugh Firm), on my return I began to focus only on corporate and transactions law in India and particularly in Chennai.
The challenge to marry the various nuances of the law with the intricacies of forward looking business is both an opportunity and challenge to the transactions and corporate law practice.
Many commercial relationships succeed without the fear of legal enforcement simply by relying on the discipline of the parties’ motivation to be fair, their prospect for future dealing, and the increasing premium they place on reputation.
A quality legal product or service would therefore be one that fine-tunes incentives by providing for a broader range of contingencies that will in turn dramatically reduce the costs of dispute resolution. The challenge to achieve this intricate balance calls upon several skills. This held great appeal for me as a practice area and catered to my need for cleanliness in human and business interaction.
Considering the fact that you started your career in California, was it easy for you to settle in the work environment of India?
The style of work communication and managing client expectations were the big differences in the work environments. When I moved to Chennai in 2006 there was still no law firm that was organically grown in Chennai with a true concept of equity or partnership.
I was a part of Universal Legal in Chennai, India for 4 years that helped me start my career when I moved home. It was an entrepreneurial foray to set up and learn the way forward in term of setting up a practice. However, in many ways there was no ‘senior’ in India whose coat tails I could hold on to, the only choice was to play natural, observe and learn. I settled in easily, it’s a great city and its home. The community places a premium on fair relationships and quality work which were encouraging when I started. Many friendships over the years have given me an insight into the work environment that is unparalleled.
You co-founded Vichar Partners in September, 2010. How did the idea germinate? Any specific reasons why you chose the name “Vichar Partners”?
I had not always wanted to set up my own firm but one is an amalgam of everything and everyone they meet. The idea of the firm germinated with the usual impatience some lawyers feel in believing that they could fundamentally change things and grow a firm that can have an impact. The energy it required and the excitement of possibilities fuelled me.
By 2010, I felt I had enjoyed the city, represented and worked with many clients who were willing to work with a non-branded non-legacy firm and had earned the trust of some of the business leaders in the city. I had sporadically but constantly dreamt of an organically grown firm in Chennai, with all its partners in Chennai catering to everything clients need in Chennai had gained momentum. The timing seemed apt when I met my great colleagues and partners Vinod Kumar and Chitra Narayan. Everything seemed ordained and there just seemed no point in waiting anymore.
We wanted to institutionalise and build a full service law firm and to create a platform that awarded and energised lawyers on merit. We were keen to grow a fast paced technology based law firm that would deal with clients, timelines and quality in an effective manner.
Our name was coined by to reflect the first 2 letters of each of our names but also that in Sanskrit. Vichar meant an idea, thought or opinion which was what our firm was. We were bound in our commitment to quality and our common belief in the ethical practice of law and business.
In April, 2014, Vichar Partners was merged with Jyoti Sagar Associates, Chennai and you currently work as a Partner at JSA, Chennai. What prompted this merger?
Vichar Partners entered the market with large aspirations on being the “go-to” firm in Chennai for corporate, commercial, transaction and niche litigation work. We grew considerably well in terms of repute, associate strength and the quality of work we were handling but we did see market realities in a comparatively smaller geography. Talented young corporate lawyers were tough to find in Chennai as the city had deep roots based solely in dispute resolution and transactional work was getting outsourced which meant there was no investment in building younger lawyers in this area, or finding administrative paralegal support to handle large transactions.
In our third year we found ourselves on other sides of the table with JSA several times, while internally we were intrigued and absorbed on the next level of growth for Vichar. A matter of timing and providence, the potential for a combination seemed complimentary to both our firms.
Somasekhar from our Mumbai office was a significant influence when he first met us with the idea, later interactions with Murali from our Bangalore office, Amit from our Delhi Office and Dina from our Mumbai office confirmed we were on the right path to considering a merger. Of course, the powerful work ethic and integrity of the leadership of Berjis and Jyoti preceded the reputation of JSA and in the end it was almost a natural selection
While some may try to refute this, I do believe that large law firms attract the best talent, provide superior training and mentoring, and would transform the inexperienced into an exceptionally skilled attorney. This in turn allows such firms to attract sophisticated clients, handle cutting-edge transactions and manage the greatest deal flows. A combination of these ingredients on a consistent basis offers the best opportunity to develop as a lawyer.
What does a partner at a law firm like JSA do? What falls within the scope of your responsibility? Tell us about a typical work day.
No day is like another. They are unstructured, sometimes meditative in working through a solution or reactive mode to urgencies or filled with telephone calls. Typically, the day is filled with interactions with potential clients, ongoing work and associates.
A typical day would start with getting a handle on all the client matters going on, different transactions or other mandates involving opinions or structuring a business, that is either readying itself for a sale or targeting a purchase – the task of managing responses to all of them and understanding if their strategies fit within the walls of the law. I prioritize and coordinate with my colleagues who are working with me based on what stage each transaction or the firm’s involvement is at. Once the background work and schedules are set within the team, active participation in calls or negotiations begin, with each party at the table having multiple commercial requirements and legal must- haves. The forward looking protections that are required in an ever changing commercial background can require one to bring to bear an understanding of economics, commerce, industry and the law.
Timelines can stretch for various reasons from parties posturing for the right leverage or purely for commercial purposes. The loop repeats and until innovative structuring, alignment of interests and final negotiations find balance– sometimes takes several months.
What is the most challenging or stressful part of being a Partner at one of the most successful law firms in the country? Is it easy to have a work-life balance?
Challenges are continuous, no piece of work is alike and the constant commercial and market changes require one to keep pace with it and opine within the four corners of the law The challenge is to use the right proportion of legal logic, commercial reasoning and fair persuasion on behalf of a client. Negotiations too are often like a puzzle, you may know where the piece goes but you also have to time when you place the piece in the puzzle so as to let others help you complete it. Being calm and composed in all kinds of crisis situations and timeline based advice is also a challenging aspect of the practice.
No, it’s not “easy” to have a work life balance. Having said that, I don’t believe work to life balance should be 50-50, at different points of life the balance scale shifts sometimes 60-40 and at other times say 40-60. I have two kids aged 7 & 3 who like to do the typical things kids of that age do– play constantly, run, go to classes etc. With a good support system I manage to do some of it with them but not all. If you think of it all as a part of leading a “whole life” then it makes sense than try to slot each activity into a bucket of either work or life. A true partner/spouse who understands the nature of work can help immensely in keeping this balance. JSA is an even keeled firm, with a great set of people and that makes the road saner and easier.
What kind of effort should a young associate put in to work to get it appreciated? What distinguishes an associate from a partner when it comes to work?
A young associate should have a keen mind that should be somewhat of a sponge – that absorbs everything in and around, taught and not taught and a thirst to learn. The law school rote method won’t let you stay afloat in a law firm but resourcefulness and hard work will. There are no short cuts.
The outside world and fresh off the boat lawyers are often enamoured by the pay a corporate practice offers but often fail to see the immense hard work that goes into the practice. There must be a very good reason other than money that makes one want to continue to pump in some very crazy hours, bear with challenging transaction requirements, clients who are bound to be low on patience if they are in stressed commercial situations and to sustain it all, for days to end– it’s a time vampire.
Associates are central to a Partner’s practice. The more they learn and give the more they grow, the more they grow the Partner can expose them to a variety of work. No show is a one man show, the synchronised timing and effort of the associate team in building research knowledge, knowledge management, prompt interactions with clients on status updates or first level drafts and so can assist the Partner to build on the same to have deeper discussions, develop negotiation strategies, understand commercial requirements and enhance the quality of the practice.
How important would you say are business development skills at such higher roles in a corporate law firm?
The role of business development is a key component in a law firm. The firm has only one asset – its people. Amongst the people not everyone is required to concentrate on business development but is a requirement on the senior resources. If a senior resource can garner client confidence, provide resourcefulness and deliver as required the firms credibility grows. The larger the pool of senior resources the larger the palette of services the firm can successfully offer. The symbiotic relationship of different partners in the firm are the strong links the firm builds through its people assets in the community. I would say these skills are critical and second to none.
Having a centralised HR what do you have to say about students writing to partners directly?
JSA is a national law firm and our internship process, recruitment process – all HR functions are centralised. Applications are usually submitted at the internship or careers link on our website. Sometimes, students write to partners or associates they have met or have a relationship with through some other professional forums, while this affords familiarity with the candidate it still depends on the requirement of the location partners and of the firm at each level.
When you hire lawyers under you, what specific skills and profile do you look for?
Law school education is becoming more adept at providing attorneys with transactional skills. Generally, however, it still falls short. When I hire for my team, I look for students who worked extra hard to find some baseline transactional competencies or have devised ways to achieve them through internships, reading, taking courses at the institutes for extra focus on particular areas of law or part timing at corporate law firms.
Given where things are in terms of corporate/transactional law practice outside of Mumbai and Delhi and given the gap between law school education and the transactional competencies that are required, it is incumbent upon the lawyer to be competent and take whatever steps necessary to educate herself to become so.
Fresh graduates can build on their ability to understand business associations, basic advice about business structures, and draft documents related to business associations and secondly to investigate and understand facts and research the law in a given context (emphasis on due diligence).
Working lawyers or lateral hires in addition to the above should be able to draft clearly, have thorough research skills, be able to walk a colleague or client through the process of identifying what the issues are, rules of law in play given the issues, applicability of law to the issues and finally a conclusion. They must be able to also identify and address the ethical implications of practice.
What would be your advice to students who wish to go for higher studies?
A degree for the sake of it would serve no end. However, some are geared to appreciating the jurisprudential thought involved and understand nuances better when the learning is organized through curriculum while others are adept to picking it up as they work with counsels or at law firms. A higher education abroad gives an exposure early on in a student’s career to the different styles practices and legal markets in the world. In my personal experience, these courses often help in wide network of friends in different regions and a style in writing and thought that could be unparalleled but I would not unduly overemphasise the need for a practitioner to obtain a master of laws degree.
What would be your message to our readers who are budding lawyers and law students?
Clarity in thought and expression is the single most important quality for a practising lawyer today. This assists in honing the ability to identify, evaluate, and understand business risks for clients and in turn offer appropriate legal advice. Invest in yourself constantly, by reading and understanding the rules of law both at home and abroad, this will enable one to compare contrast and therefore learn. The law is known to be a jealous mistress; you will have to give a lot to get some.
