Super Lawyer

Tag: NLSIU

  • Hrishikesh Datar, Founder CEO, Vakilsearch.com, on entrepreneurship and starting up

    Hrishikesh Datar, Founder CEO, Vakilsearch.com, on entrepreneurship and starting up

    Hrishikesh Datar is a graduate of the 2010 batch of National Law School of India University, Bangalore. He is an entrepreneur and the Founder CEO of Vakilsearch.com, the leading online legal services facilitator in India. Vakilsearch.com provides online legal services 24/7 and gets about 10,000 clients a year.

    In this interview, Hrishikesh talks about:

    • Being an entrepreneur
    • Starting Vakilsearch.com and its progress so far
    • Internships at Vakilsearch.com

     

    Almost all our readers know you and your endeavour Vakilsearch. What else would you want us to know about you as an introduction?

    I’m a graduate of the 2010 batch of the National Law School, Bangalore. I opted out of the recruitment process for law firms and spent a year playing with ideas before starting Vakilsearch in 2011.

     

    Did you have lawyers in your family? What motivated you to choose law as a career?

    Yes, absolutely. My father is a reputed lawyer in the Madras High Court and Supreme Court. My great-grand father was a lawyer in Pune and some of my grand-uncles were lawyers and judges in different courts in Maharashtra.

    I loved debating and I found grey a far more interesting colour than black or white. So the precise sciences were never really my cup of tea. I found the opportunity to be creative and try different approaches interesting about a career in the law.

     

     

    Kindly acquaint us with your college life. What activities were you involved in apart from the regular academic curriculum?

    I was a keen debater and mooter. In my fourth year, I started visiting  IIM, Bangalore where my love affair with entrepreneurship began. I started a T-Shirt business in college which convinced me that entrepreneurship was going to be my life.

     

    What kind of internships did you do while you were a student? How were you at academics?

    I interned at the law offices of P.S. Raman, then the Advocate General of Tamil Nadu. I had a memorable stint with Arun Jaitley, who was then a full time practising advocate. I also worked with a criminal lawyer in New Delhi, a matrimonial lawyer in Chennai as well as on research and book writing assignments.

    I did reasonably well throughout. To start with, yes, there was a pressure and a drive to succeed academically. But once you get used to the ‘system’, things become easier.

     

    You are an Entrepreneur and the Founder CEO of Vakilsearch.com, the leading online legal services facilitator in India.  What motivated you to start Vakilsearch.com?

    I just feel that the opportunity in India is so immense that we need a hundred companies like us to meet the needs of a billion people.

    And I was deeply motivated by the sheer amount of pain and suffering people face because of not having reliable, affordable and friendly professional support. I saw this in abundance when I worked with different lawyers and firms across India.

    This problem is not limited to the core legal space, it includes CAs and Company Secretaries as well.

     

    With so much of competition existing in the online legal service field, what makes Vakilsearch different from its peers?

    I would say relentless focus on customer satisfaction, a wide range of offerings and a technology focus.

     

    Did you visit entrepreneur meetings during the formative years of Vakilsearch? How would you compare the Indian start-up scenario with the rest of the world?

    The Indian scenario is in its early years, even now. And we have a long way to go. Yes, I did visit a lot of meetings at the IIM Bangalore and they were very inspirational.

     

    You are a businessman and also a lawyer now. Do you feel that doing a business related course like MBA would have been better after studying law?

    No, I don’t think an MBA would have helped. Business is about life and people, and managing both. You can’t learn this in a college. You have to learn it by doing. But yes, spending time with people who have succeeded in the business world, and learning from them is important. You can leapfrog some steps and avoid many mistakes.

     

    Please tell us more about Vakilsearch.com

    Vakilsearch.com, India’s fastest growing professional services platform on the Internet with offices in Chennai, Hyderabad and Bangalore.
    Our goal is to disrupt the delivery of legal, accounting and compliance services for every individual and every enterprise in India by harnessing cutting edge technological tools – and in the process, introduce transparency, efficiency and reliability. You’ll agree with me that these are huge pain points in India today.

    We get about 10,000 clients a year right now, and they are primarily small businesses and individuals looking for reliable professional support.

    We help them with a wide range of things, ranging from incorporating their companies to getting their trademarks, copyrights and patents, preparing legal documentation and contracts, offering them advice and support and also tax related work. We are very comprehensive.

     

    You are also in charge of building Vakilsearch.com’s lawyer network, brand building and marketing and alliances. How do you manage all these by yourself?

    We have a dedicated team for that now, so I have plenty of help. I just act as a catalyst, ensuring that problems are smoothened out and that difficulties are handled. That sums up my role today.

     

    How are you financing the business? How do you plan to finance future expansion?

    We raised finance through internal sources before raising a round of Series A funding with Kalaari Capital this year.

     

    Who all are associated with Vakilsearch?

    We’ve been funded by Kalaari Capital in a Series A round. We have a great team of mentors and advisors, including Shri Madhava Menon who consented to be an external mentor.

     

    Are you planning to hire? What do you look for in a prospective applicant?

    We’re looking for the most aggressive, tenacious and determined minds to join our team. If you think you have it in you, write to us and we’ll take it forward.

     

    Where do you see yourself five years down the line?

    We will be a billion dollar business serving more than a million clients each year.

     

    Lastly, what would be your message to law students and young lawyers who want to be entrepreneurs?

    Be willing to be ‘unsure’ about what lies ahead. Try different things and keep on looking for what moves you. And to quote Steve Jobs, “never settle”.

     

  • Megha Bhagat, Independent Consultant, Human Rights in the non-profit sector, on a career in research

    Megha Bhagat, Independent Consultant, Human Rights in the non-profit sector, on a career in research

    Megha Bhagat graduated from Army Institute of Law, Mohali. She pursued an LL.M in Human Rights from NLSIU, Bangalore before going on to work at NASSCOM Foundation. She has received a Certificate of Recommendation from HRLN for extraordinary participation in the National Convention on Human Rights and Mental Health, a Certificate of Recommendation from the Supreme Court Bar Association and a Certificate of Appreciation from Amnesty International. She currently works as an independent consultant in the non-profit sector.

    In this interview, she talks about:

    • Law college experience at Army Institute of Law, Mohali.
    • Masters in Human Rights from NLSIU, Bangalore.
    • Interning and working at the NASSCOM Foundation.
    • Being an independent consultant in the non-profit sector.

     

    Please introduce yourself to our readers. How did you decide to take up law?

    I grew up as a typical military brat with schooling all over the country. This probably formed the foundation for making career choices that varied over the years since I got to meet different role models while moving schools. I can never answer “how” or “why” I decided to take up law but I distinctly remember saying to my history teacher back in the 9th grade that I will either be a lawyer or a journalist. I think the need to know how systems work triggered the decision to study law.

     

    You graduated with a BA.LLB from Army Institute of Law, Mohali. How was your law school experience? Looking back, what would you do differently?

    When I got into law college I was another 18 year old who had just gotten her first sense of academic freedom. The first year was about figuring out what was it about the subject that really fascinated me and this also typically meant not being a student who scored high grades. While the style of academics remained pretty much like school system, I started exploring the practical world of law and started embarking on internships and legal workshops. Since the college provided the option of specialising in human rights, corporate law or litigation in the 4th year I started building my understanding of what I really wanted to do.

    For the first 3 years I interned at all forms of legal offices- be it criminal lawyers in Punjab & Haryana High Court, Khaitan & Co for the corporate experience, district courts in Lucknow or Human Rights Law Network in New Delhi. This was to ensure that I knew with absolute certainty what kind of law inspired me to work in a particular sector. By the time 4th year happened it was clear that I wanted to study human rights law and interestingly I was the only student not only in the college but the complete university that opted to pursue human rights law! I spent the last two years being on my own (no faculty, no peers), not only studying the intricacies of law but also working on workshops and seminars outside the academic circle. That built my overall exposure to the various facets of options I had set for myself and created role models from the sector.

    I gave up on the idea of mooting pretty early in law college and that is one thing I would love to go back and change for myself! I think being a law student, it is a critical skill to evaluate yourself as a court room lawyer, so it’s something I missed out on.

     

    You received extraordinary accolades while still in law school. Please tell us about these.

    I received a Certificate of Recommendation by HRLN for extraordinary participation in the National Convention on Human Rights and Mental Health in October, 2004, a Certificate of Recommendation by the Supreme Court Bar association in April, 2005, and a Certificate of Appreciation by Amnesty International in August, 2007.

    One thing I was clear about was that I wanted exposure beyond academic life and therefore remained very active in social circles beyond law college. I worked on making long lasting professional connections at the internships I pursued and I was able to get access to opportunities that existed outside college. Since human rights was already my preferred area of expertise, I was able to find mentors very early in college who groomed me in the sector and that led to participating in sector-specific work with organisations like HRLN and Amnesty.

    I was involved in curating content for the mental health convention and leading a panel on mental health discourse. With Amnesty I was involved in working on the campaign against death penalty in India and wrote a paper on the same while at college. The Supreme Court Bar Association organises an annual conference which nominated students also attend and I was nominated by the college to take part in a discussion on changing trends in human rights discourse globally.

     

    You interned at the NASSCOM Foundation while in law school and were offered a job there upon finishing your studies. What should one do to get noticed in a large organisation during a short, month-long internship?

    It is very important that you are clear about how far off you see yourself in an organisation when you intern there. This gives you clarity in terms of your role in the organisation as an intern and leads you to make a better impression. In a large organisation it is critical that your interview has already hallmarked you as a different intern over others. For me, that has been my absolute strength- to have distinguished myself with specific skill sets over other interviewees. This impression is typically shared by your supervisor with other seniors in the organisation and that also defines the kind of work you will be doing as an intern.

    Secondly, it is important you join an internship with an inherent zeal and capacity to learn and unlearn. While the “interns fetch the coffee” mechanism may apply at most places I find that most organisations are looking at an intern as a nimble footer who can move between projects easily and effortlessly. I actually joined NASSCOM Foundation and before that GMR Foundation on program management roles which had nothing to do with law at all and yet I entered with a simple mantra of “it is never too late to learn new subject matters and skills”, this trait was duly recognised at both the organisations.

    You have to ensure that you have made a few solid skills of yours noticed and recognised. You can be a good researcher, a fantastic orator, a fabulous report writer, an awesome draftsman- you need to ensure that your work has made this known to the supervisor and also senior folks. They hire you back for skill sets they believe are missing in others and you have to figure that out while you are a part of the team. Lastly, socialise with the organisation! I have always believed that anybody is a person first and bosses/colleagues/peers later, so they are looking to know your working style as a person. Create/use opportunities to meet the seniors in the organisation, have personal conversations with them giving them a peek of where you come from and why you are working with them, pick up a few projects that are outside your work role and talk about those projects to the folks in the organisation. While at NF I was handling various projects from very varied perspectives and I had made my relationship building skills known to the organisation for them to hire me back to lead programs.

     

    You pursued an LL.M in Human Rights from NLSIU, Bangalore immediately after graduating. What were your reasons for doing so?

    I personally think it is an individual choice to pursue higher studies and their motivation to do so. My motivation was simple- I had deep dived deep into human rights studies during my under grad period without any faculty or guide support and I was deeply interested in rigorously studying the nuances of the subject under able guidance. I went on to pursue an LL.M immediately because I did not want a break in my studies and went on to specialise again in human rights at NLSIU. For me it was the best decision I ever made simply because I spent the next two years dissecting closely the working nuances of various human rights mechanisms and gathering more experience through trainings etc.

     

    Is it better to work for a couple of years and then go for an LL.M or do one immediately after graduating?

    Every law student should prioritise their 2 year plan right after law school early on. If you are interested in getting on with the job, then by all means pursue work immediately after law school. If you are interested in an LL.M adding specific specialities to your resume, then you should have either figured out by your final year of under-grad what subject excites you (through internships) or you can work for a few years and figure out what speciality makes the most sense to you. And of course if you are a learner like me then join an LL.M to explore what else you can extract from theoretical knowledge about the legal systems.

     

    You were a Research Assistant for a period of ten months on the topic of “Common Resources of Mankind”. Can you tell us the experience of taking part in this conference?

    This was for a Conference on “Commons” held in January, 2011 under the chairmanship of Nobel Laureate Elinor Ostrom. This was a huge opportunity that came along while I was pursuing my masters at NLSIU. We were chosen to participate in the research for the conference and the papers that would be presented thereof. I was a part of a small working group that was collecting global evidence of the “Common knowledge” and sharing growth stories. We worked on putting together data that indicated that not only were resources to be shared amongst nations but also that knowledge shared across nations was more conducive and relevant to the globalised world order.It was personally a very exciting and fulfilling experience since it added to my overall learning growth under such an esteemed academician.

     

    After graduating, you joined the NASSCOM Foundation, New Delhi as a Business Responsibility Officer. What was your work profile like? What were your main tasks?

    My work profile included program management for CSR, research and publication on relevant CSR subjects and support for the Disability Program of the organisation.

    In the first year I was tasked to build regional industry forums on Corporate Social Responsibility. I was leading 3 regions: Bangalore, Hyderabad and Chennai, and building working groups from within the IT industry to lead social impact projects within the cities. It was an interesting space to work in since it meant that I had to become well versed with all the IT/BPO companies in those regions and curate projects based on the skills that each company possessed and also work with CXO levels to change mindsets around CSR and social impact footprint of the industry.

    In the 2nd year two changes took place- I was handed the responsibility to set up operations for the organisation in Bangalore and also handed the Program Management responsibility for an internationally funded project by the Rockefeller Foundation. I moved to Bangalore to successfully start the Foundation’s south regional office and also worked on new skills of writing funding proposals, managing an international donor and pretty much moved towards program management work. I did stay in touch with the law with the Planning Commission’s work on the 5 year plan where Iwas representing the industry on the change in the disability schemes and law. Similarly, I stayed connected with policy making work while working with the Karnataka government on amending the policy for Rural BPO’s within the state and creating more inclusive policies for small entrepreneurs.

     

    After two years at NASSCOM, you joined the Fellowship Program at The Rockefeller Foundation. How did you secure your appointment as a Social Innovation Fellow? How was your experience there?

    The Social Innovation Fellowship at the Rockefeller Foundation was a nomination led process. All 18 fellows were selected and nominated by the Rockefeller Foundation based on our areas of specialisation and backgrounds. I was at that point of time also leading a project for the Foundation in India and working on creating a report for the global BPO industry.

    Like most fellowships this was a life changing experience. I was one of the youngest fellows in the cohort and this was especially exciting since I got to learn from very inspiring senior folks from the social impact sector. We were travelling every 3 months to a new country to look at social innovation on the ground and to learn theoretical tools from our faculty from University of Waterloo, Canada and Stockholm Institute of Resilience. The travelling diaries made the beautiful countries seem so much more closer and catered to the travel bug in me.

    It was riveting being amongst social change makers and witnessing NGO’s on the ground that were implementing social impact on a large scale and under various dynamics. At a personal level it made me introspect about my vision for myself and what else I wanted to do to change the world. I not only went on to make great friends but I’m also still inspired by the passion for social change that these amazing social innovators carry. I moved on from NASSCOM Foundation at the end of my fellowship program and started my own journey of creating social impact via various projects and organisations instead of limiting myself to one organisation.

     

    Please tell us about your current occupation. What do your main tasks and assignments include?

    Presently, I work as an independent consultant in the non-profit sector consulting with the International Institute of Education and Advisor at Education for Development, a non-profit organization in the education sector. I started consulting for non profits and start ups earlier this year. I currently lead operations for IIE’s new project called We Tech (Women Enhancing Technology) and led the foray of the program in India. I primarily work with the IT companies on mentoring high school girls to enter the coding space. The program is just going into its second year and I am working closely with the industry to scale the program.

    In my role with E4D I am working with a very inspiring youngster who graduated from college and decided to change the way learning systems run in the country instead of taking up a plush job. E4D set up a “maker space” on the outskirts of Bangalore and provides an alternative learning system to anybody who wants to learn from making. I work with the start up on business development, outreach to partners and organisation visioning.

     

    Your interest areas have been education, policy research and business strategy. How did you pursue these interest areas while still in law school?

    I have always been interested in pursuing different subjects and gaining new skills through that exploration. While at law school I was involved with various research organisations like HRLN, Amnesty, etc. and worked on research papers for various human rights subjects including education. I had a lot of time on my hand to write articles based on changing policies and utilised my professional circle to gain access to opportunities to present the research or work on new and developing research. While I interned with foundations of corporate houses I picked up the nuances of business strategy by working closely with the corporate, business development teams of the parent organisation. I was always interested in how one could integrate social responsibility within the DNA. The wide range of exposure got for myself gave me ample playing field to pursue my interests.

     

    You have been commended by your previous and current employers for being a people’s person and building strong working relationships. How important are social skills for a lawyer and how does one cultivate them?

    Personally I am a typical military girl, which means I am used to forming relationships where ever I go. Add to it the fact that all through my seven years of legal education I dabbled with varied institutions and organisations thus leading to an overall understanding of different industries and professionals.

    As a lawyer, I think social skills are extremely relevant if you want to grow out of your shell at a regular desk job! If you are looking to grow further up in the legal field or diversify later into varied sectors you need to socialise beyond the circle and form learning relationships with various professionals. It is important to go out of your comfort zone and interact with professionals in different fields, to have a childlike curiosity to learn something new and if there is one thing every human likes it is the opportunity to share knowledge. In my experience forming people relationships is an important component to grow as a professional and seeking out collaborators is useful in the long run. Whoever you meet through work should connect with you at a personal level too and that goes a long way in staying on as strong professional networks.

     

    It is a common belief that working in the areas of human rights and policy research doesn’t pay well or at least as much as a law firm does. How true is that notion and how much of a hindrance is it for people joining this area of work?

    Unfortunately the social impact sector does not have pay grades like law firms. This grim reality has led to keeping fresher level talent away from this sector. The growth in the sector takes place after the initial 4-5 years and “social work” “policy research work” haven’t picked up as mainstream skilled professions leading to much less people joining the sector. The other side of the coin is that the growth is phenomenal if you stay put for initial 3 years and learn the sector well enough. The sector requires nuanced expertise and once you have created a network for yourself and become a subject matter expert it doesn’t take much to grow from post to post.

     

    What are your plans for the future? What advice would you give to the students reading this interview?

    I intend to keep working in new subject areas and utilise my skills to work on solving varied social problems. I would hate to stay put in a specific area and therefore I see myself drifting from education to technology to urban development challenges to art and literature as forms of ending violence. The variety in the subject matter keeps me excited and thus will move from one project to another keeping my insane urge to travel also satisfied.

    I would say to the students that: Don’t restrict yourself to one particular field of study just because you entered a particular sector. Figure out for yourself what excites you the most and then pursue that ambition with or without law. There are amazing opportunities that exist outside the framework and as a lawyer you are already well equipped to be a rockstar in most of the nuanced sectors! Pursue a particular field because that is what inspires you every day otherwise you will just end up being another lawyer in the country!

  • Sumeeta Sharma, DGM Legal, Benett Coleman & Co., on work experience at Law firms and as in-house counsel

    Sumeeta Sharma, DGM Legal, Benett Coleman & Co., on work experience at Law firms and as in-house counsel

    Sumeeta Sharma is a graduate from K.C. Law College, 2003 batch. Her work experience has been diverse including litigation firms like Sharma and Associates, Vyas and Bhalwal and M/s. Thakore Jariwala and Associates. Thereafter she was an Associate at Krishna and Saurastri, an IPR firm. She was also the Legal and Secretarial Head at Samsonite South Asia Pvt. Ltd. before becoming DGM Legal at Bennett Coleman and Co. Ltd. (Times Group). She has recently completed Masters in Business Law from National Law School of India University, Bangalore.

    In this interview she talks about:

    • The importance of internships
    • Working at litigation firms, IPR firms and in the corporate sector
    • Working at Bennett Coleman & Co.

     

    What got you into legal studies? Was it planned or something that just happened by chance?

    My father has been in this profession and I was always inspired by his way of life.I was often recognized as a person with good debating skills and somewhere deep down I felt I can be a good lawyer. Though it was not planned and I wanted to be a scientist, I feel extremely lucky that I actually could take up a profession which was crafted for my personality. I would say that being a lawyer was my calling.

     

    How was your experience at K.C. Law College? What activities were you involved in apart from the regular academic curriculum?

    The experience with college was good and K.C. Law College per se conducts lots of activities for young aspiring lawyers to instil the love and passion for the profession. Yes, a couple of writing competitions and moot courts were the activities I was involved in.

     

    What were your major interests as a student of law?

    My interest was in Intellectual Property Laws, Laws with respect to Medicine (Medical Laws) and of course, laws with respect to the family. I would suggest young lawyers to take up criminal law, personal laws (family law, succession laws) as there seems to be great change required in the age old formulas and I feel if young lawyers take up these subjects not only can they  explore a lot, but also contribute in amendments by questioning the very basics of old fundamentals.

     

    How important is it for a law student to plan out the course of his/her internships to successfully gain from the internship experience?

    Every lawyer should start internships right at the start, if they cannot spare more time, at least 4 hours a day. It is extremely important to get your basics strengthened right at the start. Law taught in class and court room working is completely different from each other. Thus, I pay a lot of importance on internships. I would suggest young aspiring lawyers to start with a small time lawyer (younger lot) rather than opting from bigger law firms as they may not be able to teach the core working of the court. So, I suggest they should approach their seniors from the college and request for internships. Once you have interned with such independent practising lawyers and the basics are already in place then the students should approach bigger firms.

     

    Many believe that students of ‘elite’ law schools have an edge over students from other colleges? Is this true at all?

    Yes, that is completely true. However, most students from elite colleges end up in the corporate sector with firms barely into transactional work. We have not seen many students from these elite colleges taking up litigation as their career. I feel there is a dearth of good quality lawyers in litigation, thus every lawyer should opt for litigation as their career.

     

    After graduation you worked with various litigation firms including Sharma and Associates, Vyas and Bhalwal and M/s. Thakore Jariwala & Associates. How was your experience working at these places?

    I always wanted to be a Generalist and wanted to know various things in one lifetime. Thus, I worked with various law firms in different specialities. As stated earlier, litigation firms are run on age old formulas thus the experience was enriching and I gained a lot from the pool of knowledge these firms hold.

     

    Thereafter you had joined Krishna and Saurastri as an Associate. What led to the shift from litigation to an IPR law firm? How was your experience working there?

    As I said, I had to taste law in its different form. The experience was enriching as I was exposed to the dynamically changing IPR norms globally. My experience was fantastic and created an interest and love for IPR Laws.

     

    You thereafter left Krishna and Saurastri to start working at as Legal & Secretarial Head. What does Samsonite do and what was the nature of your work there?

    Post Krishna and Saurastri, I started working as a legal counsel with Financial Technologies. FT and Samsonite both gave me an opportunity to learn the workings from the corporate end. Thus, it’s not only about thinking as a lawyer but also as a business personnel ensuring the company’s interests are legally well taken care of and helping the business accelerate.

     

    Currently you work as DGM Legal at Bennett Coleman and Co. Ltd. (Times Group). How did the switch from Samsonite take place?

    The Switch was smooth and as I said, I wanted to be a generalist, thus I opted to gain experience with different business sectors.

     

    Please tell us the recruitment process at Bennett Coleman and Co. Ltd. What do they look for in their prospective employees?

    The typical process takes 2 to 3 months and comprises 3 interviews (HR, Reporting Manager and the Business Head). They look for domain knowledge primarily.

     

    What does your current work profile at Bennett Coleman consist of?

    My current work profile at Bennett comprises mainly of (70 percent) transactional work and the rest is litigation and IPR.

     

    Does Bennett Coleman and Co. Ltd. take interns? What is the process for same?

    Yes, you may apply or request various legal heads. (Bennett is segregated into various companies and each company functions separately)

     

    What would be your parting message for our readers?

    Read as much as you can. Don’t try to mug. Law is nothing but common sense and once you read and analyse things will automatically come to you. Always take guidance from experienced personnel and buckle up for a tough ride if you want to be a good lawyer as first 5 to 6 years are your investment with absolutely no returns.

     

  • Adithya Banavar, Senior Associate, McKinsey, NY, on the job of a management consultant

    Adithya Banavar, Senior Associate, McKinsey, NY, on the job of a management consultant

    Adithya Banavar is currently a Senior Associate at McKinsey, New York. He graduated from NLSIU, Bangalore in 2011 and then joined McKinsey’s office in Chennai for two years. He was subsequently transferred to McKinsey’s New York office in 2013 as a Business Analyst. He was promoted to Senior Associate in July, 2014. His achievements during law school include being in the top 16 of the prestigious Willem C. Vis International Commercial Arbitration Moot Court Competition, Vienna.

    In this interview he talks about:

    • Experiencing law school at NLSIU, Bangalore
    • Mooting and in particular, Willem C. Vis, Vienna
    • Working at McKinsey, New York

     

    How would you introduce yourself? Could you please share a little bit of what motivated you to pursue law as a career?

    I am currently a Senior Associate at McKinsey in New York. I graduated from NLSIU, Bangalore in 2011 and then joined McKinsey’s office in Chennai for two years. In August 2013, I got transferred to McKinsey’s New York office where I continued as a Business Analyst. In July 2014 I was promoted to Senior Associate.

    Both my parents are lawyers and that was basically where the idea of law school came from. By the time I was done with my 12th, I had decided that I wanted nothing to do with engineering. At that time it seemed like a good idea for me to actually start doing something different, and hence, law.

    I came to know of NLS through my father who used to be a visiting professor there and has had a long standing association with the University. I wrote the entrance exams for NLS, NALSAR and NUJS. I got through NLS with a rank of 48 but as far as NUJS was concerned, my name was at the very bottom of the list!  I chose NLS mostly on account of it being closer to home.

     

    Given that a significant number of our readers are law school students, would you please tell us a little about your law school days at NLSIU, Bangalore?

    My experience at NLS was a little different from the typical NLS experience because I was a localite. I was more of a day scholar and didn’t stay at the hostels often. Accordingly, I had a lot less excitement in my life compared to my batch mates who lived on campus.

    Overall, the real value lies in the ecosystem that NLS creates, apart from the conventional classroom curriculum. It gives you an opportunity to do whatever you want, whether it is a moot or starting up your own eatery like Bhukkad for instance. The peer crowd around you is what makes the experience special. NLS is structured to support this. Classes start at 8:50 am in the morning and end at 1.30pm so the rest of the day is open for you to explore your wide array of interests. It makes a student understand that academics is only a part of a holistic education.

    Personally, I am a huge fan of the trimester system. I think it works really well. You have four subjects so you can clearly focus your attention. There are a few days where things could get a little intense (night before the exams!) but most of the time, you actually have time to yourself. It also gives you a very good balance of subjects. When you are studying Sociology and Economics, you are also studying Legal Methods. You see how the latter plays a role in both Sociology and Economics. Law is not something you can study in a vacuum without a broader social context and I feel the trimester system allows you to get deep into a couple of areas and truly understand the interdependencies.

    NLS also offers numerous avenues to put the law into action. I was part of two of them during my time in law school. The Legal Services Clinic (which I was a joint convenor of) has a dual mission of (i) providing legal aid to those who cannot afford it and (ii) spreading legal awareness and literacy. As a part of LSC, we set up the Bangalore chapter of IDIA (Increasing Diversity by Increasing Access) – an NGO that looks to help underprivileged students gain admission into law schools through CLAT by providing financial and training assistance; and then looks to support and mentor them through the 5 years of law school.

     

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    Have you ever felt that you have a slight advantage over your peers in other law schools owing to the fact that you are an NLSIU-graduate?

    It really depends on what you want to do in life. If you want to start your own company for example, it will make little to no difference which law school you go to. If you want to go to a top tier law firm, again it doesn’t matter that much because as far as I understand, the top 15 from any of the top National Law Schools find their feet fairly easily. Where the difference starts is in the more off-the-beaten-path career options. The reason this difference has begun is because NLS has a very strong alumni network. Many are into business, some even into modelling! One good example is McKinsey, which has numerous NLS alumni. In terms of campus recruitment, McKinsey used to only go to NLS among the top law schools (not sure if this has changed now).

    However, these are not structural barriers. I feel that if you are enterprising enough it doesn’t matter which law school you are from. For instance, when we were at the Willem C. Vis International Commercial Arbitration Moot Court Competition in Vienna, we met Martin Hunter (one of the foremost arbitration authorities in the world). He was hanging around a team of law students from KIIT, Bhubaneswar. We later learned that he comes to India and teaches a course every summer on Arbitration law at KIIT.

     

    How important do you think CGPA is in retrospect?

    I did not have a very high CGPA and hence my answers are potentially biased towards feeling it does not matter. I never really cared about CGPA even during law school and focused my attention on co-curricular activities like mooting. NLS recognizes this and there is a gold medal that is based on performance at moots – Best Student Advocate, which I was awarded.

    I think CGPA makes a difference if one wants to join a law firm. It makes a huge difference if one wants to pursue higher education. Once you move away from law firms and higher education, it makes far less of a difference. For litigation, it does not matter in the least!

    In the long run, I think it is important to separate out learning from having a good CGPA. I feel I learnt a lot more from mooting than I did in the classroom. Having a good grounding in law is immensely valuable in whatever you choose to pursue after law school (even if it is not directly law-related). Unfortunately, the CGPA system is far from perfect and I feel does not truly reflect how well one has understood the subject.

    You have taken part in the prestigious Willem C. Vis International Commercial Arbitration Moot Court Competition, Vienna and also finished in the Top 16. Please tell us about your experience.

    Vis is truly an amazing moot. The city is beautiful and there’s a party almost every other day. If you plan on taking last minute moot work when there, it is likely to be a very bad idea! There is just so much to do and enjoy other than the moot itself. There are almost 300 teams participating and it’s a great opportunity to meet people and know about their views, etc. and understand the law better. It is truly a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

    In relation to our performance at the moot – after securing any moot, the first thing to do is to hound past teams who have cracked the moot. The challenge we faced was that teams in the years immediately preceding us had not done very well at Vis. With hard work, an “out of the box” approach to mooting and a ton of luck, we reached the Top 16. Once you reach that position, the other 15 teams are more or less close to your own team in terms of competition. In the round of 16, we lost to a team from the College of Law, England and Wales. The head of Arbitration for Allen & Overy, Europe was their coach!

    You are currently working as a Senior Associate at McKinsey & Company in New York. How is it different from working in India?

    Although not very different in terms of work, it is quite different from a cultural perspective. Here, in the United States, the industries are well established and there is a much more defined role for consultants. In India, it is still a lot more personal and exploratory in terms of the way you work with your clients. Of course, that is a broad generalization and there are many exceptions.

     

    What is an average day as a Senior Associate at McKinsey & Company like for you? We would love to hear about your work profile. Please tell us about the responsibilities you are entrusted with.

    As an Analyst and a Senior Associate, you are a member of a larger team. We are given a very challenging problem from the client, which could range from ‘where should we focus for the next five years’ to ‘How do we reduce our procurement cost by 20 percent?’ Whatever the problem is, we break it up into distinct pieces and allot each of these pieces to a member of the team. Teams are small – with 2-4 people looking into at the problem on a full time basis and 2-3 more senior consultants who spread their time across multiple projects. Each person in the team owns a significant part of the answer. As a senior associate, you take a much more holistic view and are responsible for understanding how your part of the problem links with the overall problem and the broader context of the company. As an analyst, you focus on the part of the problem that you have been given. As you get more senior, the mindset changes from ‘This is what I have been allotted and I shall go solve it’ to ‘what is really going to make a significant and lasting difference to the client.’

     

    How can one working at a law firm at present get into McKinsey?

    During my time in India, I did not see many laterals hired from undergraduate programs. I suppose this is because the Analyst programme is a two year commitment after which you are generally expected to go to business school and come back as an Associate. Most analysts spend two years at McKinsey and then go to an NGO or go into investing before going to Business School. Some come back to McKinsey as Associates. There are also people who come back to the law with a more holistic business experience.

     

    Will an MBA post a five year integrated B.A/B.B.A, LL.B. course be a better combination for a job like this at McKinsey (Management consultant)?

    Yes, definitely. Business and law are two sides of the same coin. It is quite useful for one to understand the nuances of the law to make sound business decisions. Beyond that, the way you approach problems in business is exactly the same way you approach problems in litigation. Instead of searching for case law, you’re looking for facts and analyses to support your answer to the problem that the client has posed to you. In the legal context, you are getting the facts of the case, the evidence and putting them all together to support your arguments, so it is very similar in that sense (just a different context). An MBA therefore fits perfectly with a law degree and an excellent entry point into business (including consulting).

     

    Do you plan on doing an MBA sometime?

    I am quite not sure at this point of time. I intend to continue at McKinsey for the near future (I got promoted to associate without an MBA). Frankly, I haven’t decided anything as of now, but I should come to a decision by mid-year.

     

    Do you know about the management consulting industry in India? Would you like to come back and operate from here?

    Yes, I have a fair idea since I worked in India as a management consultant for 2 years. It is definitely an option and not a bad one. It’s really a question of opportunities in the areas you’d want to be in. What excites me the most is doing strategy work for TMT (Telecom, Media & High Tech) companies. From a longer term perspective (5-10 years), I think India will be one of the best markets to be in.

     

    As a concluding message, what would be your suggestions to law students?

    For people in their second or third year, my message to them would be to make the most of law school. Enjoy the social life along with the extracurricular and co-curricular activities. Do not get too stressed or worried about any one thing (especially CGPA!). For the ones who are about to graduate, I don’t have much to say except that they ought to do what they want, not what everyone else in their batch is doing. Their job should excite them to go to work in the morning. If not, they should already better start planning their exit (even if they have not yet started!). It’s not that every day of the year will be filled with excitement, but in balance, your irritation and frustration should not outweigh your excitement.

  • Mansi Sood, Rhodes Scholar, on application, SoP and LL.M from Oxford

    Mansi Sood, Rhodes Scholar, on application, SoP and LL.M from Oxford

    Extremely capable and skilful, Mansi Sood from NLSIU Bangalore is a student from the batch of 2015. She has been recently awarded the Rhodes scholarship for pursuing higher studies at Oxford University. Interestingly, it has been offered only to a few students in India, Mansi being one of them. This is an interview about her success, outstanding academic records and highly polished CV. She has also provided insights on the application process for Rhodes for the benefit of readers. Needless to say, her accomplishment in the field is incredible, and she goes on to tell us  about her drive and future plans. There is evidently so much to learn from her.

    In this interview she talks about:

    • Rhodes Scholarship
    • Law school experience at NLSIU, Bangalore
    • Mooting and Internships

     

    How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers? Tell us a bit about your background and school life.

    Well, I was born and brought up in Delhi and did my entire schooling at D.P.S. R.K. Puram. I was always involved in a wide range of co-curricular and extra-curricular activities but my passion has been dance. I started learning Kathak from my guru, Smt. Vaswati Misra at the age of 5 and learnt for 13 years till I went to college in Bangalore.

     

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    What was the driving force behind taking up a career in law?

    My parents have always encouraged me to follow my heart and do what gives me joy. One of my cousins went to law school and I used to hear a lot about it from her. So somewhere along the way, her stories inspired me and it seemed like I would enjoy the law. The law is very logical and structured and it’s also a great equalising force. Both of these things appealed to me and I decided to take the chance. I’m just glad it worked out!

     

    How has been your law school experience at NLSIU, Bangalore? What are the best memories of your student life there?

    It’s very difficult to compress almost 5 years into one answer! But frankly, NLS, Bangalore has been a wonderful, wonderful experience. There’s so much to learn, so many opportunities and so many people to inspire you, it’s quite amazing. It is hard work but it’s definitely worth it. The memories I’m taking from here will last me a lifetime, I think.

     

    How do you give credits to your institution for being awarded the scholarship?

    I think the institution, its people and most importantly, its environment, have had a huge role to play in shaping me as a person. Whether it’s professors, friends or peers, they are always so encouraging. And the diversity of interaction makes you broaden your perspectives a great deal. So yes, I would definitely like to thank my institution and all the people associated with it for their support.

     

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    You were adjudged the third best advocate at the South India Rounds of 55th Jessup and there are winning titles for your team in many other moots. You also have many publications to your name. How did you manage and what kind of skills did you acquire?

    I have been involved in a variety of co-curricular activities but as you mentioned, mooting has been the one most dear to me. When I think what all of these activities have taught me, especially mooting, is that there are always two sides to every coin, multiple ways to look at anything. And I think that’s a very important skill for a lawyer. Other than that, they also obviously sharpened my research, legal writing and advocacy skills.

     

    What was your first reaction on learning that you are being awarded the Rhodes scholarship? How was the application process?

    My first reaction was a mixture of joy and relief. I couldn’t believe it for a while, in fact there are still moments of doubt! But to be honest, it’s a great honour and I’m very grateful to have been given the scholarship.

    The application process involves two stages – the written application and the interviews. Once you submit your written application, there is a preliminary interview and then a final one. At each stage, the pool keeps getting smaller.

    I wasn’t always sure that I wanted to study further but once that decision got made, Oxford was the dream.

     

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    How did you go about writing your CV and most importantly, your personal statement/essay/ SOP?

    Writing the CV isn’t tough, you just have to write two pages about the things you have already done. It’s the SoP that takes effort because you have to express your dreams in words and make it sound convincing at the same time. It involves a lot of thinking and introspection, more than anything else. Once you’re clear about your goals, it’s just a matter of putting it down on paper.

     

    Do you need to have recommendations as well? What kind of profile is needed while applying for the scholarship?

    Yes, the Rhodes scholarship requires 6 recommendations – 3 academic and 3 personal. There isn’t a fixed profile that you need or a checklist that you need to have completed but broadly, they look for a well-rounded personality who has been able to demonstrate more than just an interest in the field he/she wants to pursue.

     

    Was there any interview round? If yes, how were you prepared to face the panellists? What kind of questions did they ask?

    Yes, there are two interview rounds. The first one is more ‘technical’, in the sense that it’s usually taken by people from your field who are interested in having a discussion. The final interview is more about you – who you are, what you want to do etc. I was a little nervous both times, more so the second time not just because there were a lot of luminaries on the panel but also because it was my final shot at the scholarship; but both the interviews were a lot of fun and I thoroughly enjoyed myself. They asked a variety of questions, ranging from India’s labour laws to my dance to Kashmir.

     

    What kind of internships have you done? Did you ever plan out your internships?

    I have mostly done litigation internships, aside from the Summer Vacation Scheme at Herbert Smith Freehills. I did plan my internships to a certain extent, but that was mostly in line with what the college prescribes. We have institutional support in the form of an Internship Cell that helps out with contact details etc. But more importantly, seniors and alumni have always been a huge support.

     

    You are keenly interested in research as well. Tell us about it.

    I think research and policy work is an important aspect of legal work in general because often, the changes that we seek to bring about in our laws, come about through that route. I have been involved in research on a variety of subjects, from arbitration to constitutional issues.

     

    What are your plans after your post-graduation? What kind of career do you envisage after graduating from Oxford?

    My interest lies in commercial law, with a primary focus on arbitration and intellectual property laws and that’s what I want to pursue. I haven’t thought about exactly what I want to do but it would be a mix of practice and academia/policy work.

     

    What would be your advice to our young readers who would like to apply for Rhodes scholarship in future? What does it take to have a brilliant CV?

    I am not sure I’m qualified enough to give advice but I’ll say this – Just be honest. Of course, there is work involved in the whole process but the most important thing is to be yourself and talk about the things that matter to you the most. The rest will fall into place.

  • Sonal More, Global Legal Counsel at an MNC talks about Corporate Law, Higher Studies and LPOs

    Sonal More, Global Legal Counsel at an MNC talks about Corporate Law, Higher Studies and LPOs

    Sonal More graduated from GLC, Mumbai and thereafter had worked as an in-house counsel at places like Spykar Jeans, Pangea3 and currently at Firmenich (a global leader in perfumes).

    Even as a Global Legal Counsel at Firmenich currently, she has taken time out to pursue the MBL programme from NLSIU, Bangalore. In this interview we ask her about:

    • Importance of learning a foreign language
    • Work at an MNC like Firmenich
    • Pursuing the Masters in Business Laws from NLSIU

     

    Please tell us about yourself. What were your reasons for taking up law?

    I belong to a closely-knit Maharashtrian family in Mumbai. Born, brought up and educated in our financial capital, Mumbai. I have always been passionate about art; the freedom to use colours with no boundaries mesmerized me, contradictory to a lawyer’s profession where rules are the key to our survival. Raised by two teachers, reading was inculcated in us right from childhood. My interest in law began when my father gifted me my first novel, Sidney Sheldon’s Rage of Angels, which was based on an American Criminal Defense Attorney. That was my first step towards law. With time, I started reading articles on prominent Indian lawyers and our legal system. I met one of the criminal defense attorneys for guidance and decided I had to find my way in the legal fraternity somehow; so I commenced my law course with Government Law College, Mumbai. Coming from a non legal background, it was difficult to understand which avenue to take, and after 2 years of initial trial and error in my internships I finally found my passion in contracts.

     

    You have an LL.M and a Postgraduate Diploma as well in Intellectual Property Law. Please tell us how you decided to pursue the diploma also.

    I was introduced to Intellectual Property Law, when I was struggling to decide which area of law I should be focusing on. Being new to the topic, I enrolled myself with National Law School, Bangalore for my Postgraduate Diploma to get more insight into Intellectual Property which helped me simultaneously to prepare for my final year law exams where IPR was my specialization. I pursued LL.M after completing the Post Graduate Diploma; I felt LL.M would give me in depth understanding in comparison to a diploma.

     

    You also completed a Diploma in Cyber Laws from the Asian School of Cyber Law in Pune. Please comment on the quality and structure of the course. How much practical knowledge did you gain from it?

    The course is designed for beginners and to get basic knowledge as to what comprises of Cyber Laws. It is automatically presumed that Cyber Law essentially means Information Technology Act and nothing more than that. This course helps to understand that Cyber Law is much more. The structure of the course is very concise and appropriate for basic level understanding. The course helped me immensely while drafting, negotiating and understanding IT concepts in software license agreements. For someone who is working on software license agreements, this course is highly recommended.

     

    You are currently pursuing Masters in Business Laws (MBL) from NLSIU, Bangalore. It is said to be one of the toughest postgraduate law courses in India with a very low pass percentage. What would you say about the quality of the course material?

    I couldn’t agree more that it is indeed the toughest postgraduate law course, at least amongst the ones I have appeared for. My preparation is mainly based on the NLS course material, for any recent updates to the regulations NLS provides additional notes. I would still recommend research on internet for additional information on updates. The material provided by NLS is very elaborate and easy to understand.

     

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    After completing your studies, you started working at Emmay HR Services Pvt. Ltd. as a Legal Assistant. What is the state of HR Departments in big and small companies?

    Emmay HR which is now Randstad India, is a recruitment company so impetus on HR policies was a given. The role required me to understand the different categories of employments, namely permanent, temporary, staffing and contractual. After being a part of various setups and sectors, I realized that there are pros and cons in big and small setups. In my view the HR departments in smaller companies are more connected to the employees and have better visibility on the employee concerns. Bigger companies have robust systems in place which makes daily activities / functions smoother for sure, but at some occasions lack the personal touch till an issue is brought at the forefront. That being said, the most compliant, organized and connected HR teams in my experience are found in a factory setup. Given the number of regulations and statutory requirements, a factory needs to follow, in terms of labourers/ workers; the HR team manages the HR function and to a certain extent statutory function for the organization.

     

    You then went on to work at Pangea3. How did you secure your appointment? What is an average day of a Senior Specialist like?

    Honestly, like any other law graduate I was not really sure of joining or even interviewing with an LPO at the time. LPO had just stepped in the legal industry at that time and we had no idea how and what the company looks into. A recruiter had reached me several times to consider Pangea3 (which was then not associated with Thomson Reuters) and after having multiple conversations, I finally decided to give it a try and that proved to be a right decision.

    In my role as a Senior Specialist, I functioned more as an extended team member of in house counsel teams for different companies. I was a part of the Corporate Team and more specifically the Contract Drafting Team. Amongst several projects I worked on as a Contract Drafting Attorney, I also worked on some Contract Abstraction projects. Simply put, Contract Abstraction is creating a summary or a snap shot of the executed contract, for the company to refer to. These summaries help the company to keep track of expired contracts and the provisions that were agreed on before; thus giving an insight into the contract without having to read the whole document. An average day as a Senior Specialist would comprise of contract drafting, reviewing and negotiating agreements, depending on the clients we cater to and if on a contract abstraction project, we would have specific targets of reviewing particular number of contracts; pretty much similar to the day of a non litigation lawyer.

     

    After a year and a half, you switched to Hindustan Unilever Pvt. Ltd. How can one make his presence felt in a large company like HUL? What was your work profile like?

    Unilever is a brand that everyone would like to be a part of, and when I got the opportunity I could not resist it. My profile was more of Indian litigation and contracts, where I had to co-ordinate with Advocates and counsels for the court cases and prepare documents. I wanted to try something different than my previous roles, so I had decided to move from a completely non litigation profile to a litigation profile, however after a few months in the system and attending court proceedings I realized it was not my interest so I had decided to return to non litigation. In any company for that matter, be it large or small, it is difficult to make your presence felt. In larger companies, the opportunities to shine are less frequent as you may have to wait a long time to be recognized if you missed one chance but then again if you show your skill you will succeed. I always keep in mind a message one of my seniors had told me “If you are not at the table, you are on the menu”.

     

    Currently, you work at Firmenich Aromatics India Pvt. Ltd. as a Legal Counsel (Global). Please describe your job profile for us.

    My role is primarily focused on drafting, reviewing and negotiating global agreements for all divisions in the organization, ranging from software license agreements, sale agreements, purchase agreements, et al across the globe. As an In House Counsel, I also look into company policies, their compliance, preparing training programs for the teams across all functions and partnering with the business teams to ensure adherence to policies and legal requirements. On an average day, I could be negotiating contracts with companies based anywhere in the world or discussing legal provisions with the commercial teams.

     

    You also hold an Advanced Diploma in Spanish from Instituto Hispania, Mumbai. Does the knowledge of an extra language give you an edge over your peers?

    Being born and brought up in Mumbai, it becomes a part of your characteristic to know at least three languages, which served as a foundation to learn languages quickly. I had chosen Spanish as I felt everyone at the time was focusing on French and I wanted to do something different.

    Knowing an extra language definitely gives you an edge; it opens up different avenues for you as an individual, and exposes you to a different culture. For instance, if one completes all levels of a foreign language, he/she could be an Indian lawyer who can work on a Spanish Contract without the assistance of a translator.

    Although I had to limit myself to three levels due to time constraints, basic proficiency in Spanish helped me immensely when I worked with Latin American clients and peers; and proved to be a training ground for me to deal with foreign accents. I do not think there is any specific foreign language that I would recommend for a law student, however if a student wants to work with European companies, French would be an ideal choice. Learning an additional language will always help you as a lawyer or even otherwise.

     

    You have only worked in the in-house legal department of companies. Why did you never try for a law firm job or a career in litigation?

    In my earlier days of law school, I had tried working for a litigation lawyer and after a month I realized that my interest did not lie there. So I tried interning with a law firm, which functioned as an extended arm of the in house counsel team as it focused on few clients at the time. That structure intrigued me. As a lawyer in a law firm, I was more focused on the letter of the law with no or limited access to the business or the commercial side of the company and I wanted to understand the business more closely, so I chose to work as an in house counsel.

     

    It is believed that the work of an in-house counsel is restricted compared to that of a law firm lawyer but the latter has less (or no) work-life balance. Do you think this is true?

    It’s a common misconception; in no way is the work of an In House Counsel restricted. I feel quite the contrary, as an In House Counsel you are forced to think out of the box and consider real business scenarios. You can no longer sit on the sideline and merely state the law, now you are a part of the decision making process and have a say in commercial provisions. As an In House Counsel, we have to wear two hats, one of a lawyer and the other of a commercial person. It is our responsibility to understand the business and ensure that the company complies with the legal requirements and also meets its commercial targets. An In House Counsel in the true sense is a business partner; attuning oneself to understand the business needs to meet targets is a task which requires business acumen and applying your legal knowledge as a lawyer, which does require us at times to burn the midnight oil and sacrifice holidays. That said, I think work-life balance is a personal choice, whether you are a part of a law firm, a company or working with a litigation lawyer, if we really want to do something we either do it or make excuses. My personal guide to maintain work life balance is Mr Narayan Murthy’s (co-founder of Infosys) letter to his employees on the subject.

     

    What must a law student keep in mind when wishing to pursue a career in corporate law? Is a degree like CS or MBL important for this field?

    While pursuing corporate law, a law student needs to keep an open mind. It is not essential that one can pursue a career in corporate law only in companies, one could gain in depth knowledge also by being a part of a LPO. So I would not restrict one’s aspirations to any specific sector of companies. An additional degree is always helpful, depending on the individual’s interests and future goals. If working as a corporate lawyer or understanding corporate law is the goal then MBL is the course for you, however if the intent is to ensure compliance, statutory related work, one should consider CS.

     

    Lastly, what message would you leave for our budding lawyers?

    From what I have learnt in the last eight plus years in the fraternity, I would suggest interning in different setups, litigation, law firms, companies, LPOs, et al. Today lawyers are more than just litigation lawyers, and subject matter experts. We are moving towards the new age, where lawyers are entrepreneurs and business oriented. Choose the area you like without any presumptions and prejudice. If you are passionate about what you do, you will create a niche for yourself.

  • Santhosh Mathew, Standing Counsel, Calicut University, on how he built his litigation practice

    Santhosh Mathew, Standing Counsel, Calicut University, on how he built his litigation practice

    Santhosh Mathew is an alumnus of the NLSIU, Bangalore of the 1995 graduating batch. He focused on litigation right from the beginning. A first generation lawyer, he started his practice at Dandapani Associates in 1995. He became independent and co-founded a litigation firm in 2004. He is currently a Standing Counsel for the University of Calicut. His practice areas are in Writ Petitions, Telecom, Media laws, Banking Laws, Company Law and Service Laws.

    In this interview he tells us about:

    • His first few years after graduation
    • Role of mentors in litigation
    • Work of a Standing Counsel
    • Necessary skills for the legal profession

     

    Tell us a bit about your pre-college years. What motivated you to study law?

    My grandfather was a District Sessions Judge at the time of his retirement in 1964. My father after graduating in law from the Government Law College, Ernakulam, joined ‘Malayala Manorama’ which is a leading Vernacular Daily, as its Personnel and Administration Manager. He used to take care of the Company’s legal matters His classmates from GLC, Mr. K.P Dandapani (A former Judge of the Kerala High Court and the present Advocate General of Kerala) and Mrs. Sumathi Dandapani were very close family friends.

    After completing my 10th Standard like any other youngster at that time I joined for pre degree (equivalent to present day higher secondary) and took Physics, Chemistry and Biology along with Mathematics to pursue a career in Medicine or Engineering. In time, Mr. Dandapani came to know about the National Law School of India University, Bangalore and bought an application form for me. When the entrance results came out, I was in the waiting list and hence joined ILS Pune which has an awesome campus. After two weeks, my admission at NLS Bangalore was confirmed and finally, I landed up at the “Harvard of the East” in 1990 with Roll no: BLIJ 189. The classes back then used to be held in one of the three car sheds which were converted to class rooms later on. That was the beginning of a wonderful journey in my legal Career.

     

    Tell us about your objectives while in the preliminary years of Law College. What were your plans after graduation?

    In my preliminary year my intention was to clear courses without getting too many repeats. Since I was not a very hard working student I was happy with my B+ grades! I studied the notes prepared by my Classmates Mr. Piyush Joshi and Mr. V. Umakanth. In my first year I interned with Adv. P.C. Abraham in the District court at Kottayam. I feel it is very important that all students start by doing an internship with a lawyer who practices in the lower courts and learn to draft Civil Suits and Criminal Complaints first. Merely by walking along with the Court Clerk will teach you the filing procedure.

    From the Second year onwards I used to do my internship with Mr. & Mrs. Dandapani who used to entrust me with various matters to do research and also with drafting of pleadings. My internships helped me to make up my mind to be a litigator. My appeal to all the law Students reading this is to use all the opportunities you get during your internship to decide what you want to do after graduating. Nobody will entrust you with any responsibility unless you volunteer. Only if you display a passion to take up responsibilities, the seniors with whom you intern will have the confidence or inclination to entrust you with more work. I understand that some lawyers don’t pay the interns. My appeal to those lawyers would be to loosen their purse strings a bit and pay a stipend which will at least cover their expenses.

     

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    Looking back, how significant do you think that your legal education was? When did you happen to experience the learning curve?

    I sincerely regret not being a serious law student. Since I was not a very ambitious person I was more involved in co-curricular activities and did not spend too much time participating in Moot Courts other than the mandatory ones which were required as part of the curriculum. Since we had a fine group of students from all over the country I got to learn about various cultures and made some great friends. The projects done every trimester helped us to learn about different research methodologies and made us better equipped to do legal research.

    By the time we graduated we had a clear idea as to how case law could be worked up. This helped me tremendously in my career as a lawyer. So to all the law students out there, my appeal would be to try and identify a topic you can relate to and do an honest work with all earnestness. During my LL.B. course I ended up doing a lot of absurd projects which on hindsight makes me wonder, “Why on earth did I do those projects?” Please remember that you will be the sole beneficiary of your project and if you do a shabby work, you will be fooling no one but yourself.

     

    Do you feel that there is a difference in the court atmosphere between now and when you started practice? Has it become easier or more difficult for a young lawyer to establish himself?

    I believe the present day judges are much more accommodative of junior lawyers. In Kerala the Judges never had a fascination for Senior Lawyers from outside. So the local lawyers received great exposure which resulted in improving the quality of such local lawyers. My seniors Mr. K.P. Dandapani and Mrs. Sumathy Dandapani were always encouraging and permitted the juniors to take up their own matters which helped us to build up our careers apart from being a major boost to our self esteem.

    In fact all the juniors who have been mentored by Mr. & Mrs. Dandapani have made a mark for themselves after becoming independent. I was with Dandapani Associates for 9 years from 1995 till 2004 when I set up independent practice with my wonderful partner Mr. Sathish Ninan who is my friend, philosopher and guide. So it is very important to find a good office and work with a senior for a decent span of time. Court crafting is something you don’t acquire over night. It is very important that you don’t compromise on your integrity for monetary gains. If you get a bad name in this profession, you are DOOMED.

     

    Please tell us about your experience with regard to your first few sessions in court. Has it become more difficult for a fresher to achieve success?

    In my first year of practice there was a complaint filed by the then Chief Minister Mr. E.K. Nayanar against ‘Malayala Manorama’ before the Press Council of India. The complainant had instructed Senior Counsel Mr. Rajeev Dhavan. We had instructed Mr. Gopal Subramanium. Justice Sawanth was the then Chairman of the Press Council.

    When the matter was taken up, Mr. Rajeev Dhavan started arguing and Mr. Gopal Subramaniam became unavailable as he had to go to the Supreme Court for some urgent matter. When our turn came up, “yours truly” had no other option but to argue the matter and with God’s grace we got a favourable verdict. My client was so happy that they celebrated my victory by publishing my photograph in the ‘Malayala Manorama’ newspapers by celebrating it as a victory by a young David over Goliath.

    On a lighter note, a lot of my friends at the Bar after seeing my snap in the newspaper thought I had met with an accident! This was a big boost to my budding career. Thereafter there have been numerous opportunities in the last nineteen years of my career where I have been at the right place at the right time.

    For instance, when Mont Blanc came out with the ‘Mahatma Gandhi pens’, we filed a PIL in the Kerala High Court against the sale of those pens in India alleging violation of the provisions of Emblems and Names (Prevention of Improper Use) Act, 1950. As a result, Mont Blanc undertook before the High Court of Kerala that it will not sell the ‘Mahatma Gandhi series’ pens in India.

    We have conducted a lot of cases before the High Court relating to issues relating to health hazards from Telecommunication Towers. We have been successfully representing most of the major cellular operators and Telecom infrastructure providers in Kerala before the various Courts. We have represented various educational institutions challenging the unreasonable restrictions imposed by the State Government which adversely affected their minority rights guaranteed under the Constitution of India.

    God has been extremely kind to me. One must have the self confidence that he or she can handle any matter that comes his/her’s way. If we don’t know the subject matter in detail, we should study extra hard and consult the seniors who are experts in that field. The legal profession is a unique profession where seniors are willing to go out of their way to guide a junior counsel in need. While arguing a matter if a judge asks a question to which you readily don’t have an answer, have the humility to admit that fact and be assured most of the judges would be more than happy to grant you time to work up and make your submission. Remember Bench and Bar are two sides of the same coin and you have a duty to our client to win a case but you have a bigger duty as a responsible officer of the Court to assist the Court to arrive at legally correct judgments. Therefore, never mislead the Court.

     

    What was the role of mentors in your case? How important do you think a mentor is in the field of litigation?

    I was extremely lucky to have wonderful seniors like Mr. K.P Dandapani, Mrs. Sumathi Dandapani and Mr. Jaju Babu who are all designated Senior Counsels who mentored me and had tremendous confidence in my abilities. This motivated me to reach office at 7.30 AM and work till late night until the work entrusted was finished completely. They paid me handsomely which was also a very important factor as far as a junior lawyer is concerned. It is very important for a young lawyer to have a mentor to guide him/her just like a toddler during infancy.

     

    Please tell us about the requisite soft skills which are essential for a young lawyer to build a successful career?

    There is no substitute for hard work. Try to get a good mentor. Be ready to take whatever assignment that is given and never shirk away from responsibilities. Learn to respect your colleagues and opposite side lawyers. Invest in proper infrastructure. Don’t be concerned about money. Always be courteous to the judges. You don’t win any case by picking up a fight with a presiding officer! You will only succeed in losing not only that case but other matters too till the judge gets tired of dismissing your matters! It’s good to have aggression and self confidence but over confidence would land you in trouble. Always be prepared and never go to argue a case without preparing properly. Always take the relevant statutes and the latest case laws on the point when you go to argue a matter. Never underestimate the opposite side.

     

    How did you build up your client base? How many years of practice would you say it requires to build a firm clientele?

    There is no hard and fast rule for this. Work hard and put in your best effort when a client comes to you. Satisfied clients will in turn, get you more clients. Legal profession is a unique profession where you cannot build up a client base through marketing gimmicks. One needs a lot of luck to be at the right place at the right time. There are so many learned lawyers who have vanished due to lack of opportunities. I genuinely feel that not all are capable of being leaders. There is a lot of space for everyone here. The lawyers who are incapable of building up a client base on their own must find good senior or like minded lawyers and form a firm and learn to manage things. Some are good in impressing clients but may not be effective lawyers. These two categories can form a common platform. Gone are the days of individual practitioners. A group of like minded lawyers providing a one stop shop would become the order of the day in the future.

     

    What has been your experience of being a Standing Counsel? How is the work pressure and what are your responsibilities like?

    Being a Standing Counsel of an institution like the University of Calicut was purely providential. It was a huge responsibility. In June 2011, nearly 4000 case files were brought over to my office and I didn’t know where to start with. Within three years, I have with the support of my able colleagues Mr. Arun Thomas and Mr. Jennis Stephen, disposed off nearly 2500 cases. I consider it a huge opportunity to help students who have a genuine cause to have their grievance redressed.

    A lot of old service matters could be disposed off. The High Court judges who dealt with the jurisdiction are very efficiently disposing off matters. The biggest challenge was to build a good working relationship with the client and to get instructions on time. Giving timely legal advice and getting instructions from the various departments of the University were all difficult in the beginning but over a period of time it started functioning smoothly like a well oiled bicycle. One must learn to respect the representative of the client who comes to instruct you.

    I was fortunate to have a great team right from the Vice Chancellor till the Assistant in the Legal Department who would be ready to render all possible support and assistance. Each day was a new learning experience. Being a Standing Counsel of a prestigious institution increases your visibility and gives you tremendous exposure. You get to argue cases against the best lawyers in the field. You get to learn the subject in extenso.

     

    When you hire lawyers, what kind of skills and profile do you look for? What kind of a profile suits best to the profession?

    All the lawyers we have hired have been recommended by my friends. We have been extremely lucky to have a set of sincere hardworking colleagues. I personally feel that young associates must be delegated work depending on their potential. Over burdening a junior lawyer with work he/she cannot do will only help in demoralising them. At the same time I hasten to add that each one should be pushed to their optimum to make them good lawyers and better individuals.

    Right from the time of internship in their first year, law students must try out different options like NGOs, Law Firms, Individual practitioners etc. and by the time one completes the third year he/she must have a clear idea about where they want to be after graduating. As a junior lawyer one must not be bothered too much about the monetary aspect. For the first five years it really helps if one has a generous and understanding father.

    I was really privileged to have a great father who ensured that all my needs were to be taken care of so that I could concentrate in my work. If you are serious about the profession, you must be ready to put in long hours at work. Be assured after some time in your career those long hours you have put in as a young lawyer will definitely help you in your journey. I have seen a lot of youngsters in my time. Some of them have started their blogs, websites, entrance coaching centres etc, taken up theatre and even marriage photography mainly because most of them eventually got fagged out after learning “Law” for five years and this prompted them to do something out of the box.

     

    Do you think that achievements such as having a landmark judgment to your credit can change one’s recognition drastically?

    I don’t think so. I strongly believe each day is a new day and you have to consistently deliver your best. There is no place for complacency in this profession. You cannot afford to rest on your laurels. In fact some of my important cases which we won did not actually get the client the relief which they ultimately wanted. They were classic cases of “operation successful but patient dead”. It definitely feels nice when your peers send you a text in appreciation of your efforts after reading a reported judgment which you have argued.

     

    Do you feel that there are differences between students of ‘elite’ law schools and students from other law colleges and traditional universities?

    Frankly it is difficult to generalise. The students from the ‘elite’ law schools have a structured curriculum which makes them better equipped. I guess one gets a 5-10% head start if you graduate from a good law school. But if any student feels that he is superior in any way to his peers who have graduated from other law colleges he is a FOOL.

    Once you enter the profession if you don’t work hard, others will catch up and before you realise it, they will run over you. It is high time and the scheme and syllabus of all law colleges are also structured in a similar fashion which will do away with artificial barriers. With the right kind of opportunities and a proper level playing field, anyone with a passion will be able to make a mark in this profession.

     

    What are your views on the future of Indian legal education? How would you suggest that a law student manages to stay ahead?

    It is high time the three year courses are stopped. After retirement persons must not be permitted to enter the profession as a litigator. They could be permitted to practise in non litigation areas. The State Bar Councils must provide for a stipend for young lawyers from economically weak backgrounds to survive for at least 5 years after graduation. All lawyers have a duty to contribute to that corpus. Courses which gives more in depth exposure to applications should be evolved and incorporated into the curriculum in place of those which require mugging up and reproducing what you have memorised. An opportunity must be provided to young first generation promising law graduates to get a placement with a successful lawyer. All of us have an obligation to reach out and do our little bit for our young brothers and sisters who join the profession with all earnestness to become “social engineers”.

     

    What would be your advice to young law students? How do you think that they should approach their career?

    Don’t be an arm chair critic who looks down on everything in life. Learn to appreciate the good things in life. Equip yourself and make yourself marketable. Be ready to work hard. Be practical in what you want to achieve. Everybody cannot be a Harish Salve, K.K. Venugopal, N.R. Madhava Menon, or a Cyril Shroff. India is one of the biggest populations in the world. Everyone has a legal requirement at least once in his/her lifetime. If we can make a qualitative difference to at least one person due to our expertise we can make the world a better place to live in. Ours is a noble profession.

    Let us collectively restore its lost glory. Wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

  • Aditya Sondhi, Senior Counsel, Karnataka High Court, on building a career in litigation

    Aditya Sondhi, Senior Counsel, Karnataka High Court, on building a career in litigation

    Aditya Sondhi is an alumnus of the NLSIU, Bangalore. He graduated from NLSIU in 1998, and had thereafter independently set up his litigation practice, ‘brick-by-brick’. He was recently (in June, 2014) designated a Senior Counsel at the Karnataka High Court.

    In this interview, he reckons his first hearing at the court and shares with us his in-depth experience of advocacy. There is so much to learn from here. Read on!

     

    Please tell our readers what motivated you to take up legal studies?

    I was an accidental lawyer. One had heard of the NLSIU at Bangalore in the early 1990s, and when the entrance exam came along, I sat for it just for a lark. My plans were to go to England after my 12th standard. As it turned out, I cleared the Law School exam and ended up staying on in Bangalore.

     

    Have the NLUs been able to produce socially relevant lawyers? What is your take on this, given that many chose to take up firm jobs?

    Quite so, because those who have taken up social-action practice have made their mark. There is a saying in Hindi – Sau sonar ki, ek lauhar ki (For a hundred blows of a goldsmith, a single blow of the blacksmith). Despite many NLU alumni taking up corporate law at firms, the few who have taken up socially relevant lawyering have [sociallocker] more than made up for their tribe. Like my classmates and friends at the ALF.

     

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    How was your law school experience at NLSIU? Are there any memorable moments which you would like to share?

    I was fairly nonchalant about being in NLS and hence didn’t necessarily get very deeply influenced by the ethos of the place. Equally, my contribution to the institution as a student was negligible. I do, however, vividly remember our founder-director Dr. Madhava Menon at the orientation programme in 1993, clearly mentioning that the object of the Law School was to contribute purposefully to the Bar. For me, that was a clarion call of sorts and helped me take up litigation once I graduated without even an iota of doubt.

     

    How do you say a law student can shape up his profile for litigation while still in law school? Do moots and academic writing help?

    Moots and academic writing scarcely help one shape up for practice. Though moot courts may give a mild flavour of what it is like to prepare and argue a brief, the lack of accountability to a real client or a real cause makes the experience artificial. Academic writing in fact makes it difficult to adjust to pleadings for court, which are meant to be concise, uncomplicated and largely factual. Even the legal grounds that are pleaded are expected to be scholarly, yet pithy. Closer attention to research and strenuous litigation internships can surely muster up a skill-set that comes handy in the long run. Most importantly, law students must stay clear of the anti-litigation propaganda that goes around and make up their own minds about practice.

     

    How were the first few years after your graduation? Would you say law school prepared you for the real world practice of law?

    They were the toughest years of my life. Simply, because I realized how ignorant and wet behind the ears I was. It was more a case of trying to survive in practice, rather than succeed. This was due to the fact that one knew so little and experience could only be gathered the hard way. Law School did not prepare me for this episode, as the culture in NLS was generally removed from litigation and concentrated more on academia and corporate, in-house practice. Of course, the few professors who had shown us glimpses of the real world outside, like Dr. Lalit Kumar Rao (may he rest in peace), were valuable mentors.

     

    Please tell us about how you decided to pursue litigation. What were the other opportunities you were considering?

    As I said earlier, Dr. Menon’s message stayed with me. This, coupled with the fact that I was offended by very senior professionals coming down for pre-placement talks and simply selling their firms to the students. I always wanted to work in an environment where I would be inspired by my seniors. Not be seduced by them to join them. That changes the entire grain of how you approach your life ahead. A robust placement in my fourth year with Mr. Dipankar Gupta in the Supreme Court and in the final year with Mr. Udaya Holla clinched it for me.

     

    Did you have a mentor while in your formative years of your practice? How was your experience arguing at the court for the first time?

    Not directly, but Mr. Holla shaped my career tremendously by simply giving me opportunities to argue matters in the High Court from the day I enrolled. His style of mentorship is quite stringent and effective – to throw you in the deep and let you swim for yourself. Something he has done himself with remarkable élan. On the evening that I got my sanad, when I offered my senior some sweets, he reciprocated by offering me two files for the next day to argue in Court!

    One was a writ petition before the legendary Justice R V Raveendran, in which former Advocate General Mr. B V Acharya appeared for the petitioner, and I could not get to open my mouth for the respondent! Not so much out of fear, but more because I had over-prepared for the case and did not know where to begin. (Fortunately for me, the other case allotted to me was adjourned!).

     

    What was the attitude of judges towards new advocates? Has it changed over the years? Are there any specific challenges to be faced on the first day?

    As I recounted my first hearing above, I can say that soon enough I became confident to argue more assertively and calmly in Court, and tribute here must be paid to some wonderful judges at the time who were most encouraging to juniors. I can recall Justice Dattu, Justice Rangavitalachar, Justice P V Reddy, Justice Mohan Kumar, Justice Thakur, Justice PatriBasavangoud and Justice Rajaratnam, among many others. Some of them were tough task-masters but at the same time, never bullied or discouraged juniors. This brings out the best in junior advocates – knowing they need to be fully prepared and that the Court will hear them impartially. The greatest challenge in the beginning is the mind-block that one has with the system – uncertainty as to how the Courts will treat a new entrant. Good seniors and judges help you keep the faith.

     

    How do you say we can boost the fiduciary relations between clients and us? How many years of practice would you say is required to build a firm clientele?

    One good performance is sufficient to build faith in the party. Clients, generally, only expect their Counsel to be prompt in their filings, honest to the T and to give it their best when the case is heard. Of course, the unethical practice of soliciting clients makes it very difficult for solo, first-generation practitioners who stay true to their code of conduct. I would say, my clientele was never as large as many other lawyers. However, it was built brick-by-brick, and that takes years.

     

    What all does a Senior Counsel have to do? Please tell us about a typical work day.

    Seniors have the benefit of not having to worry about mundane, micro-management of cases and are only required to argue their matters to the best of their ability, after being briefed by the advocate on record. However, the very fact that one is a designated Senior mandates greater preparation, better submissions and total fairness to the Hon’ble Court. Typically, a day entails briefings by Counsel on record and interaction with juniors to prop up the research. Thereafter, it’s a question of waiting your turn in Court and arguing the brief. Evenings are at Chambers, where briefings and reading continue.

     

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    What are your core areas of practice? How do you say one can find his domain?

    I’ve always maintained that litigation is a speciality in itself and thereafter one may or may not concentrate on any core area of law. I would say my work broadly covers commercial and constitutional law, on both the civil and criminal side. Having said that, there is a great thrill in arguing newer areas of law, where one is outside his / her comfort zone and where one must work doubly hard to do justice to a brief. Unless one already knows what area of law he should practice in, it is best to free-fall and discover the areas of interest as one goes along.

     

    What is the transformation from being a Counsel to Senior Counsel like? Are business development skills mandatory at such higher roles?

    A designated Senior Counsel at the time of his / her designation must already be made of the stuff that is expected of a Senior. If that is so, the transition is not so sharp, though one does face several practical changes in terms of retiring from pending cases, avoiding direct client interaction and so on.

    I’m afraid, that the words ‘business’ and ‘practice’ do not go together in the profession. The skills are professional and entail the entire gamut of skills required for better advocacy. Not least, a high degree of ethics, which one must constantly strive to uphold. And which is no easy task.

     

    How did you take time out for pursuing higher studies? Would you say higher studies are necessary for a career in litigation?

    I got my masters’ in political science through correspondence and thereafter a PhD, while I was practising. This I did only because I missed the academic side a little. Otherwise, neither did I intend to pursue an LL.M nor do I think one can afford to take much time off from practice to pursue higher studies. Particularly, if you are a first-generation lawyer and have to stay at it from day one.

     

    What are the skills that you look for when you hire juniors under you? How do you reckon that law students should develop these skills?

    The hunger to learn and the modesty to know that they know very little. My chambers are ill-suited for juniors who are smug and all-knowing. These are not so much skills as they are an attitude. And that attitude needs to be developed by introspection.

     

    When you accept interns under you, what kind of qualities do you look for? How do you say interns should go about their work so as to get noticed in a positive way in the limited time they have?

    I find it quite difficult to screen interns considering the number of students who apply. And I get all sorts. Really good, keen interns and others who are there as a formality. Interns clearly need to slog and make the most of their time in Court, without waiting to be spoon-fed assignments. Internships are meant to get a feel of what Courts are like, and that effort has to come from the interns themselves. A lot of them sit around hoping I will do the needful for them. And they are usually disappointed.

     

    Having mentored quite a few students have you found any difference between NLU and Non-NLU students? Do you think law schools have a role to play in one’s career trajectory?

    Non-NLU students show a greater hunger to learn, especially non-NLSIU ones. There is no chip-on-the-shoulder and there is an eagerness to show the world that one’s aptitude does not necessarily depend on the law school that they come from. In any case, NLSIU alumni do not choose to work with me and I have had all of two NLSIU products work with me in all these years! My best juniors have come from the local law colleges. My first junior, Nidhishree, was a gold-medallist from the ULC, Bangalore and has proved to be fine advocate with a bright future ahead of her.

     

    Is there any other suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

    The Law is an amazing universe – with diversity and depth, with unsolved mysteries and with room for everyone who accepts it whole-heartedly. But, as they say in cricket, no one is bigger than the game.

    [/sociallocker]

  • Suhas Baliga, Principal at Innove Law, on quitting Law Firms and starting up

    Suhas Baliga, Principal at Innove Law, on quitting Law Firms and starting up

    Mr. Suhas Baliga graduated from NLSIU, Bangalore in 2008. He thereafter joined Luthra and Luthra and then moved on to Trilegal. His work at law firms spanned a time period of almost 4 years. Thereafter he moved on to co-found Impact Law Ventures in 2012. In June 2014, he started up with Innove Law which focuses on investment and corporate advice to seed, early stage and growth-stage companies, with a team of three associates.

    We asked him to share his deep insights on:

    • Life at a Law School
    • Building up a firm clientele
    • Challenges of setting up a law firm on one’s own

     

    Tell us a bit about your childhood and pre-college life as well as educational background. Did you have lawyers in your family?

    No. I haven’t had any lawyers in my family as such. Is it helpful to have lawyers in the family? Yes. But at the same time it is not necessary. You can also bring in lawyers into the family by marrying into one! The more difficult part of becoming a lawyer can be setting up a law practice from ground up. I wasn’t brave but had the initial good fortune of working in a firm which paid its associates well and which did not privilege family background but this is not the case with law firms in general. There is some preference for families not because we are a feudal country but because the way law firms are organised and ownership is structured, it favours closely held ownership and management, though things are changing. I never imagined myself to be a lawyer. It was a matter of chance that I went to law school. I was surprised and taken aback since that was the only law school entrance exam that I took while looking forward to engineering since that was something everybody did in Karnataka at that time. In hindsight I am happy I didn’t follow the herd.

     

    So did you prepare for a career in technology or medical before that?

    I did not ever think there is only one path. It is more of a question of what I found interesting at every point of time. Apart from being interested in politics, I was interested in pure sciences. In fact when I was in my 12th, I was either watching the news or studying physics. Because in science there were other subjects to study like biology and chemistry I used to enjoy what I used to do.

     

    What made you gravitate towards the study of law at NLS? Was it planned or just a matter of chance?

    NLS turned out to be a pleasant surprise. I was happy that I wasn’t doing engineering like everyone else and doing something different there. The fact that it was an Arts course where there was history and economics was fun. I always liked reading and writing and this aspect of the course was especially attractive. When I joined NLS it used to have a good public law focus. It used to have three constitutional law courses and three political science courses – I think the arts and public law aspects of law courses have great value in moulding an all-round lawyer. A strong grounding in constitutional law, administrative law and arts subjects also makes for a better corporate lawyer given its influence on legal and regulatory issues in general.

     

    Was the shift from science to BA.LL.B difficult?

    Not really. I remember having my first class at NLS where the professor was talking about a ball which was hit by a cricket bat and it fell outside and landed on the head of a fan in the audience, I found it all very flimsy. After calculus and thermodynamics, it seemed pretty thin. Also what puzzled me is that people used to make notes on these things! I never felt the subjects to be extremely challenging although I found some law subjects fascinating, especially where they intersected with arts subjects or where they are grounded in first principles, such as jurisprudence, criminal law, law of trusts, contract and transfer of property. Even after my 3rd year in college I wasn’t sure of doing law. I worked on a literary magazine for the college and everybody knew me as someone who writes and not someone dribbled in the professional life of law. Although I was sad when I was graduating because of not having extremely high grades, I was happy to have used the five years of college to explore varied interests and passions. In my own way at my own pace that was the best thing about college. In hindsight, I feel I took education like education should be taken. If you were to ask me, at the same time I did not take to everything about law school. I found certain aspects mundane, such as “mooting” and debates, even though a large part of my work today involves negotiating, presenting and having conversations with real people.

     

    Law school can be monotonous at times. What different things did you do these five years at NLS?

    I picked up on certain interests I had before but the law school culture certainly played a part by exposing new avenues to explore them, be it music, movies, theatre, women (!), books. There was much to do. I did participate in things recognizing that college is that period of life where you build relationships both professional/personal and expand your mind and explore new ideas.

    Grades certainly may be a significant criterion, yet ironically if an analysis is made between people who scored at the top of their class and their current state of affairs, the result might be surprising. Grades may give one a good push, probably a foreign law firm job but it is not going to make one’s career. In fact, as a lateral higher when you send an application I doubt your grades will be looked at very closely.

     

    Tell us about your internships. Did you get any institutional support for internships from your college? Any remarkable internship experience which shaped up your career?

    So as far as my internships were concerned, my idea was to broad base them and never to do the same thing twice. First year I interned with a newspaper, Second year I interned with Ramchandra Guha, Third year I interned with a litigator, and in my Fourth year I did a corporate internship and oddly it was then that I discovered some interest in the legal profession. My journey as a corporate lawyer started when I was with Lexygen in Bangalore. When I joined them in their first few months, there were only three lawyers there. Lexygen was an amazing place because there was this young team who were trying to build something big. They used to love doing what they were doing and continue to do so today.

     

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    Did you find that your law school education had prepared you sufficiently for the many tasks you were required to execute during your internship?

    Absolutely not. In no way did law school prepare me for an internship. Most of the internships showed me that the work as a lawyer often has little to do with anything that I had studied at law school. One of the major criticisms of law schools today in the profession is that they hardly put any emphasis on analytical and critical reasoning. They don’t learn the method neither do graduating students have an eye for detail or focus on the outcome of what you are doing and what the practical aspects are. You learn some cases and principles and feel very intelligent but the moment there is a real situation before you, you do not know how to react. In India, law practice and academics have been divergent and much needs to be done to bridge this gap. The intersection between teachers and academicians in the university and practising lawyers and professionals is very limited.

     

    What do you feel about the perception that students of certain ‘elite’ NLU’s have a much easier time in kick-starting their career as compared to law students from other colleges?

    It shouldn’t ideally matter which law school you go to. The only difference that I see, not to blow my own horn, is that in NLS during my years, we had to do some 60 term papers out of which 30-40 were serious, so that amount of writing brings in some amount of practice on how to write. So I do give NLS due credit for teaching you how to write. Whether you learn it or not is a different matter. With a lot of other colleges also they have applied the same model but most of the writing they do are for their final exams. I think it is more of a question of rigour and how much work you end up doing and if you are required to do certain amount of work it pushes you to do that amount of work. I think the greatest difference between what is considered a good college like NLS and others are the networks. And that is the only sort of advantage and this is across the board in every industry. In IIM Ahmadabad, your juniors and seniors all of them are from IIM Ahmadabad. It is an old boys club that you can tap into later. And yes there may be a difference in kinds of the professors that you deal with and the kinds of courses that you take up. There were some amazing batch mates and professors during my time with whom I built amazing relationships with. So there are obviously many intangible advantages of going to a good college which may or may not have anything to do with the actual skills that you learn.

     

    Like networking and alumni circle, basically?

    It is not just about alumni, but also the people who come after you in the college and the ability to network across a bunch of lawyers. E.g. I was Roll no 1291. There were 1290 lawyers before me. And now it has come down to 1800 or 2000 or so. There were 2000 lawyers from my college which is not such a huge number and a lot of them were well dispersed across the profession. So now if I want reference in different firms it can be somebody from my college, or if I want to hire people I may send reference to them. So yes it is a network, but more importantly, in terms of your college also you have a residential environment where people engage with each other a lot which has a certain intrinsic value. It is an example of a soft advantage which may not be directly linked what an institution is bringing to them but it is more like an ecosystem wherein it allows people from different spheres to come across, get to know each other and build a professional network. In the long run however, your ability to build networks is dependent on the efforts you put in, and the longer you spend out in the profession the less important your alumni networks become.

     

    So you may agree to the fact that it is more about the student community of the university and not directly linked to the university itself?

    Yes, and that is unfortunate and it is not the ideal situation. The university should contribute to who you are. I am not saying that NLS did or didn’t but there indeed is a lot of scope for improvement, and this is the same thing with an LL.M too. I don’t think a LL.M degree from Harvard makes one a better lawyer as much as give you access to another network. I do not mean to in any way discount the exposure that comes from attending great institutions and taking courses seriously.

     

    After graduating from NLSIU you directly joined Luthra & Luthra. How did the appointment take place? Tell us what a typical day at work was like for you?

    So after my experience in Lexygen, Luthra & Luthra had picked me up for an internship. My internship went well and I liked everything about it. 2008 was a fantastic time, I was interviewed, and they offered me the job. It was a great year even for people like me who were at bottom of my class given that half of my class was taken up by foreign firms.

    Once I joined Luthra and Luthra, I worked with the infrastructure, banking and finance practice. The first six months of Luthra were as or more challenging than five years of law school. Apart from hard work, having to learn very quickly, having to deal with clients, being in situations where you do not understand anything yet you are forced to understand. I was fortunate to have very smart people work with me and that was a fantastic thing to happen in the first year of your career. It was a great place to work at with a comfortable atmosphere and a fair degree of freedom to innovate and yet have high expectations. I used to deal with bureaucrats, anchors, policy issues and policy making, issues in terms of documentation for the infrastructure sector, how contracts should be modelled, high level discussions on how a project can be structured, and in an old fashioned way we learnt to read everything twice, be very thorough. It was also very broad based because there was the corporate side, the contract and commercial side, the legal and regulatory side. After 3 years I felt I needed a change, because I was doing a lot of things which I have done before and I wanted to explore new avenues.

    Trilegal offered me a position in Bombay and ensured that I will have a good mix of work that I had done in the past and what I wanted to do. I was there only for a year so I can’t really judge though I wasn’t really particularly thrilled with the shift as Trilegal had very little work in my practice areas at the time and I wasn’t assigned a stable senior resource to work with. It was in my time there that the bug of enterprise bit me. When I got out of Trilegal, it was clear that I wanted to do something which builds on my experience. It has to innovate and has to be the result of the knowledge that I have inculcated from working with law practice. I also felt there was much that could be done better and decided to move towards setting up my own model.

     

    You thereafter left Trilegal to start your own venture. What were your ideas while quitting Trilegal? What were the challenges you faced starting up with Policy Craft and Impact Law Ventures?

    There was no idea honestly. Like I said my idea was to build on my past experiences and skills that I had like in corporate finance, debt and equity finance, project finance,  and the various skill sets that I had,  and also in terms of building some sort of regulatory practice in terms of being able to do more in research and analysis and advocacy. When I started out the first transaction that came to me, and started working with similar early stage investments, it was 2012 and the early stage market was picking up. In the course of 2012, I learnt what kinds you need to deal with and the kind of market for legal service there is and I think that was very useful when I started working with my partner, Pankaj.

    After quitting Trilegal, there was one month where I borrowed money from my father. Unfortunately I had saved no money! I don’t really see it as a challenge but just me. I have been out on my own for two and a half years now and I see this as a lot less risky as opposed to working with a law firm. Over there, you tick one or two people off and you may just get fired. In a law practice where you serve clients, the relationship is more goal oriented and broad based. It may be risky to have a technology start-up but that is not the case with a law start-up. The latter is built on relationships with clients who trust you, which if maintained well are relationships for life.

     

    You have worked at larger law firms earlier and then after starting your own firm do you feel the work/life balance has changed? Is it more comfortable be your own boss or is the pressure of work almost similar?

    I understand bigger law firms better now that I have seen the business side of having run my own law firm. Most fresh corporate lawyers have an extreme sense of entitlement and typically don’t understand that law firms are a service provider and their clients are service recipients. When you think about the law firm model, or start your own firm, how to pay your employees etc, it gives you a greater insight into how a law firm works. People think if one becomes a corporate lawyer, then one has to draft documents, one would have to read this and that, which is like saying, if I become a Chef I would have to cut bananas! I think creating value for your clients using your abilities to the best you can is the most important.

    So in this profession, if you think that there are some people who get work and some who will do the work, then it means that you don’t recognize that work involves handholding your clients apart from drafting their documents or advising them or giving them memos. I don’t think the way the profession is structured right now; you can really make the distinction and think you are one or the other. If you do you are running a risk. If you can only sell and can’t practise the law, or if you can only practise the law and not sell or manage, either way you would be putting yourself at risk. So ideally, there is no such thing as a rainmaker. There are good lawyers and there are bad lawyers.

     

    Tell us a bit about your current occupation in Innove law.

    One of the things I learnt in the last two and a half years is that there is a community in India that is looking at building businesses which are driven by innovation and explore completely new models, either in terms of technological base or processes or in terms of the kinds of services they are trying to provide to the populations they are trying to serve. A lot of these businesses that are today’s small or that are growing have very interesting entrepreneurs, investors, stakeholders who are trying to build something larger tomorrow and this is the client base that interests me and I feel that the number of people who are starting up or building new businesses, need to go up and they have to do businesses in India in a way that safeguards their interests. So a lot of work that I do and that we intend to do here, whether it is with the clients, or with the policy or regulatory side, is focused on serving this group. We do this by representing entrepreneurs when they are negotiating their investments, represent investors when they are investing, represent businesses when they are growing, give legal advice concerning strategic issues that start-up businesses face amongst other things. This is just a simple way to describe it.

     

    Where do you see yourself in five to ten years down the line?

    So there are two things, in terms of 5 years and Innove law, I would like to see that the clients that we are working with right now and the clients that come to us will grow and will help in pulling the firm along. In 10 years from now, I would like to see myself having published at least one book. It can be fiction or non-fiction. But everyday what drives me is that the people that I work with today own tomorrow. It is fantastic to see your client who was fresh out of college when you first represented him is running a 100 million dollar company. There is nothing like that.

     

    What would be your advice to our readers who may be aspiring to start their own law firms one day?

    My advice to them would be that from day one, build relationships with your clients and colleagues and work hard. Read everything that comes to your desk.  Be imaginative.

  • Talha Salaria on founding ‘Lawyers at Work’, expertise in Corporate Law and building a career

    Talha Salaria on founding ‘Lawyers at Work’, expertise in Corporate Law and building a career

    Talha Salaria graduated from NLSIU, Bangalore. She has been a corporate lawyer for most of her career. She is the founder of Lawyers at Work.

    In this interview, we asked her about:

    • Her experiences as a founder of ‘Lawyers at Work’
    • Her experiences of practicing as a corporate lawyer.
    • Internship experiences and their importance in a student’s career

     

    When did you decide to take up law as a career?

    I didn’t choose law – I think law chose me. While I do have a few lawyers in my family, most of them went on to join the bureaucracy as IAS officers.

    I studied in Welham Girls High School, Dehradun. Since we were living together as boarders, we used to hear about various opportunities that are available for higher studies. I knew that I wanted to do a professional course and hence applied for the entrance exam of NLSIU, to have another option.

     

    You have been a corporate lawyer for most of your career. What prompted you to take up corporate law? Share with us some experiences which helped you to shape your career choices.

    When I started working I wanted to be financially independent. Unfortunately, litigation did not offer that opportunity since at that time (and maybe even now), it did not pay much, atleast initially. Moreover, I really enjoyed the atmosphere of corporate law firms. Most of my internships were with JSA where we were a small team, very focussed and yet we had a lot of fun. It was a great atmosphere and a very good platform for learning – I wanted to be a part of it.

     

    You started your career at J.Sagar Associates where you worked for six years. Thereafter, you co-founded MMB Legal. Were you always keen on having your own establishment?

    I was not keen on having my own establishment as such but over a period of time, I felt I had the risk appetite and the confidence to be able to do it. I do not necessarily make detailed long term plans but when I see an opportunity, I make sure that I respond to it immediately. The markets were good, the adrenalin was high – there was nothing stopping us!

     

    Almost five years after co-founding MMB Legal, you established your own law firm named “Lawyers at Work”. What prompted you to make this choice and what made this shift possible?Any specific reasons why you chose the name “Lawyers at Work”?

    I wanted to push myself to the limit – it is very challenging to set up on your own and it was a challenge that I wanted to explore.

    Choosing the name took a long time – I did not want to name the firm after myself – I was very clear about that. After much thought, we stumbled on a name that sounded good and exciting.

     

    Please tell us something about “Lawyers at Work”. What is a workday like?

    The key aspects that we focus on is learning and being a facilitator to the business of our clients rather than a cog in the wheels – therefore, we are very quality and timeline driven. At the same time, we like to ensure that everyone gets their weekend’s off and some personal time on a daily basis. There are very few rules – the idea is to take ownership of the work and also your conduct so that people come together as a team rather than based on hierarchies.

     

    What were the initial challenges you faced setting up “Lawyers at Work”? Having established a law firm earlier would you say it was easier for you the second time?

    It was definitely easier to set up the second time. Infact, MMB Legal was a great learning experience and a stepping stone for setting up L.A.W. The main challenge that we have faced right from the start is getting good people and attracting good talent. Our clients have been very supportive and we have not had any concerns regarding getting work, which is the typical concern for a start up.

     

    What is the most challenging or stressful part of being a founding partner of a law firm? Is it easy to have a work-life balance?

    The challenging part is to play so many different roles in a given day – administrator, rainmaker, mentor, lawyer – just to name a few. It keeps you on your toes. Given the fierecely competitive environment, especially in the Bangalore market, one needs to be constantly up to mark and creative in ensuring that you build yourself up brick by brick. I have a great work-life balance through it all – it is possible to have one with good time management and multi-tasking.

     

    Please share your experience starting up with a law firm for the benefit of law students and young lawyers who want to start up on their own.

    I would strongly urge young lawyers to focus on learning for the initial 10 years. The legal profession is a lot about experience and expertise which cannot be learnt in 1 or 2 years. Ideally, the young lawyers should litigate for atleast a couple of years and if they are in a corporate set up, they should focus on learning rather than aiming for the big figure salaries. Once the foundation is set, it is easy to set up and build on it later.

     

    The trend is now on gathering various internship experiences at different places. Was the scenario same while you were pursuing law? How is internship helpful for a law student?

    This trend was there even at our time. Internships are what you make of them. We have had interns who have come only for the sake of recording the internship on their resume and others, who, with the focussed work that they have done, have treated it as a rich learning experience. I remember when I was interning, I did my first due diligence and it was an eye opener for what was to come in future.

     

    Does your law firm take interns? If yes, then what is the application procedure? What do you look for in a prospective applicant?

    Yes, we take interns. The applicant can write to admin@lawyersatwork.in. We generally take one intern at a time to ensure that it is a fulfilling experience for the person.

     

    What would be your parting message to law students who want to be successful in corporate law?

    Hardwork, dedication and the right attitude will go a long way in being successful, and this applies to a career in corporate law as well.