Super Lawyer

Category: Higher Studies

  • Ridhi Kabra, Trainee, Shearman & Sterling, on experience in Arbitration and winning 19th Willem C. Vis

    Ridhi Kabra, Trainee, Shearman & Sterling, on experience in Arbitration and winning 19th Willem C. Vis

    Ridhi Kabra graduated from NALSAR, Hyderabad in the 2013 batch. She went on to pursue higher studies from University of Cambridge after being awarded the Commonwealth Shared Scholarship. Her thesis presentation there earned her the Nappert Prize in International Law at the McGill University in Montreal. She has had experience of working with the International Arbitration Team of Shearman & Sterling LLP in Paris. She has been awarded TAPP Scholarship to pursue PhD from Cambridge University, which she will be pursuing later this year.

    In this interview she talks about:

    1. Her experience at NALSAR, winning the 19th Willem C. Vis International Moot Court Competition;
    2. The application process, scholarships, etc. for admission at Cambridge; and
    3. Her experience in Arbitration and at Shearman & Sterling LLP

     

    Tell us a bit about yourself. What motivated you to choose law for a career?

    I was brought up in Calcutta. I went to school at Mahadevi Birla Girls’ Higher Secondary School. I was lucky to be schooled there, because in the 90s my school was probably the only school that afforded students the opportunity to excel at academics and extra-curricular activities. In school, I was involved in swimming, skating, gymnastics, dance, music and a host of other activities. My mother played a huge role in giving me a holistic learning experience as a child. Outside school hours I would go for my bharatnatyam, Hindustani classical music and art training. This level of exposure had a considerable impact on my life, it taught me that being good at academics was never enough.

    Looking back, I think the reason I chose law was because I did not want to pursue the more preferred options among students of Calcutta- engineering, medicine, chartered accountancy, business studies. Since, I found these options very conventional, I began reading up on different career options and chanced upon law. Law appealed to the logical side of me. Having no lawyer in the family, it was difficult to understand what legal education meant. So I decided to join Prime to prepare for the entrance exams. It was during my coaching at Prime that I met a few lawyers who ultimately influenced my decision to take up law as a career.

     

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    Tell us about your college life at NALSAR. What all activities did you partake in?

    Since I had no concrete reason for taking up the study of law, I remember being quite lost in my 1st semester at NALSAR. I was part of the first batch of students to be admitted through the common law entrance exams (CLAT). To my good fortune, this meant that I was surrounded by exceptionally talented batchmates who helped me learn a lot.

    Since I do not come from a legal background, I started with a clean slate. NALSAR provided the perfect platform to explore different areas of law- so I went from being interested in intellectual property law in the first couple of years, to constitutional law and corporate law and then eventually to international law and international arbitration. For each of these areas of law I tried to develop my understanding better through a range of activities- internships, participation in various competitions, publications and the like.

    NALSAR gave me the foundation I was looking for. I credit NALSAR for giving me the opportunity to explore my area of interest, both within the classroom and outside. At NALSAR, I saw myself participating in both national and international moot court competitions, presenting papers at conferences and publishing research papers. The freedom to undertake these activities helped me develop me skills beyond what was taught in the classroom.

     

    You were one of the most exceptional students at NALSAR in your batch and have graduated 2nd in the batch with a few gold medals for being one of the batch toppers. Please give us a few actionable tips on managing higher grades.

    I think 5 years is a long time and it is very easy to lose sight of the bigger picture, therefore one must find reasons to stay motivated. I have always set goals/targets for myself, challenging yet attainable, and have worked towards achieving those goals.

    I have found it useful to pay attention in class. Listening to what professors have to say, irrespective of our own assessment of their teaching, and taking notes in class has worked for me. I have also found it useful to explore concepts in detail instead of learning by rote. In a field such as law, a little extra reading outside the class room can set the fundamentals in order and go a long way in developing a sound understanding of the law.

    Lastly, I cannot overemphasize the importance of organization and discipline. Having a planned schedule for the semester (or just for exam preparation), organized notes on each subject, etc. is half the battle won.

    Having said all of this, there is no set way to manage high grades and is an individual choice.

     

    You were a part of the team which won 19th Willem C. Vis International Moot Court Competition. What does it take to be a great mooter?

    I firmly believe that moot courts are a great way of learning in-depth about a particular area of law. Further, moot courts are a great way of developing one’s skills of applying the law to a fact situation. This is what drew me towards mooting in law school. From the 1st year itself, I began taking part in various national and international moot court competitions. I was fortunate to have wonderful seniors who were always willing to provide guidance. My moot court achievements are a direct reflection of the collective hard work, dedication and skills of the various teams I have worked with.

    Mooting being a team exercise, an individual is only as good as the team he/she works with. Since a moot court competition takes several months of preparation, it is important to have a good working relationship with your team members. The dynamics of the team reflect upon the preparation and performance at the competition. It is also important to start early and to start with the basics. For example: for the Willem C Vis Moot, we started our preparation 2 months before the moot problem was released. During this time, we focussed on strengthening our basics of the subject areas of the moot- arbitration and CISG. The team would take turns to discuss a particular topic, so that by the time the problem was released, we had our foundations in place and could delve into the issues that the problem raised. The process of cracking a problem aside, a good mooter is one who moots because he/she enjoys the process and is passionate about it; not because it adds some value to one’s CV.

     

    You have published a few papers in renowned journals and have won the Kachwaha essay competition twice in 2013 and 2014. How should one go about writing papers and getting the same published?

    Frankly, there is no fixed way to go about writing a paper. A research paper should address a recent legal development or a change that is desired in the legal system and present cogent reasons for the position being taken. A good paper/essay is one that has a clear structure in place, contextualizes the thesis, and then presents strong, well-reasoned arguments. I also believe in keeping the language simple, easy to read and follow. What is said about mooting applies to publications as well: you shouldn’t write and publish because it checks another box in your CV; you should write because you want to contribute to the debate.

    In order to get a paper published, prepare a shortlist of the journals/law reviews you want to approach. Each journal has their own requirement. Once you have modified your paper to meet this requirement, approach the editors of these journals/law reviews. The process is pretty simple, your paper is reviewed by the editors who then inform you if they are willing to publish your paper.

     

    Tell us how has moot court participations and paper publishing helped you in acquiring skills that are important for a successful legal career?

    As mentioned earlier, I have found moot courts to be the best way to explore and learn a particular area of law. Moreover, moots help develop various skills, ranging from academic to personal. Moots helped me learn how to apply the theory in practice, improve my legal drafting, build on the ability to work in a group and to handle competitive, high pressure situations. Moots have also taught me that presentation and perfection can leave a huge impact. Authoring papers has gone a long way in improving my legal drafting. It has also helped strengthen my research and analytical skills.

     

    After your graduation, you further went to the University of Cambridge to pursue your Masters. How did you apply for the University? What is the procedure to apply to the prestigious University?

    Application to the University of Cambridge is a two-step process. Application to the University has to be made by the middle of November via an online application form. The online application form consists of a range of questions that seek to assess your performance (both academic and otherwise) at the undergraduate level, your reasons to pursue an LLM and similar questions. The application has to be supported by 2-3 referees.

    Once the application form is submitted, the next step involves uploading all the relevant documents- transcripts, degrees, CV, etc. At the same time, the University approaches the referees requesting them to upload their recommendations.

    Offers of admission are made by the University around March-April.

     

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    How did you opt for University of Cambridge? Which other Universities were on your shortlist?

    Given my interest in public international law, the University of Cambridge was an obvious choice. The list of international law courses offered by Cambridge is unparalleled and is supplemented by ad-hoc lectures and seminars by visiting academics and practitioners.

    The only other university I had applied to was the University of Oxford. Between the two, the choice was made based on funding. Since Cambridge offered me a full scholarship before Oxford, I chose to study at Cambridge.

     

    What are the top three things one should necessarily do in order to get successfully inducted as an LL.M. candidate?

    If I had to prepare a list of the three things that are most important, they would be the following-

    1. Consistent record of good academic performance– While Cambridge does not give undue importance to academic performance like the University of Oxford, candidates are still expected to have a consistent record of academic performance. This means, you must aim to be in the top 5-10% of your class.
    2. A well-rounded CV– The application form requires you to furnish details of your achievements, work experience, research projects undertaken and awards secured. This is to ensure that the selectors can undertake a holistic review of your achievements, instead of limiting themselves to your academic performance. It is therefore important for the application form to reflect that you have excelled outside the class room.
    3. Reasons to do an LL.M.– Your application should highlight the reasons you want to do an LL.M. For instance, I have always been interested in pursuing academia and that was reflected in my application.

     

    How was the academic schedule? Was there a lot of academic work? Tell us about the courses which you have undertaken during your LLM at Cambridge.

    The rigour of the academic schedule is based on personal choice. The classes are organized in the form of lectures and small group sessions. For each lecture, students are assigned readings; while for the small group sessions which focus on delving deeper into the subject matter, students have the option of submitting an essay. The Faculty does not believe in enforcing its rules on graduate students- the idea is to be responsible for your own work. What this means is that you’re free to sit through the lectures without reading or attend a small group session without submitting an essay. However, I found sitting through lectures and seminars without reading to be quite unproductive, and therefore sought to spend a few hours on my readings everyday. Students are expected to choose 4 subjects. Each subject has a 2-hour lecture every week. Small-group sessions for each subject are generally held once / twice a month.

    I chose a combination of commercial and international law courses- settlement of international disputes, law of restitution, competition law and corporate finance law. The idea was to study a combination of subjects I wanted to specialize in (international law) and subjects I did not get the chance to study at the undergraduate level (law of restitution, competition law).

     

    Given that you went to Cambridge on a scholarship, you must be having a fair idea about various scholarships; it would be great, if you could tell us about those to our readers intending to apply for scholarship.

    As a law student, the Commonwealth Scholarships are the most prestigious and widely available scholarships for Cambridge. There are 2 ways to secure a Commonwealth Scholarship- you are either nominated by your home country (India) or the University itself. For the former, application deadlines are generally around the first week on November; for the latter, the scholarship application is sent with the university application.

    Apart from the Commonwealth, each college at Cambridge has its own set of scholarships. It is best to conduct an online search on the ‘fees and funding’ page of the Cambridge website to get a sense of the scholarships available for the year of study, since some scholarships may not be available every year.

    The Cambridge Trust also offers a host of scholarships- either in conjunction with the Commonwealth Commission or in conjunction with a college. There are a few scholarships specifically available to Indians, and there are others open to all international students. The Cambridge Trust also provides part funding to students with a demonstrated financial need. Again, it is best to check the website of the Trust for updated information.

    Other than the above, there are a number of trusts in India that have also set up their own scholarships. The Inlaks Trust, the OCSI, the Ratan Tata Foundation, the Aga Khan Foundation, etc are some scholarships aimed at Indian students intending to study at any University outside India.

     

    You were awarded the Commonwealth Shared Scholarship for pursuing LLM at Cambridge University. Tell us about it.

    The application process is divided into two steps. As a first step, you must specify that you wish to be considered for the Commonwealth Scholarship in the application form to the University itself. The University application form requests every candidate to submit a 500 word essay to support their scholarship application.

    The University then creates a shortlist of the students who are to be considered by the Commonwealth Commission. Once the University informs you that you have been shortlisted, you are invited to complete the Commission’s application form. Since the Commonwealth looks for candidates interested in making a difference to their home county, the application form consists of questions that expect you to outline how your country would benefit from your education, etc.

    The Commission then decides on the merit of the applications and the successful candidates are informed towards the end of June.

     

    You did a thesis on settlement of international disputes under the supervision of Dr. Michael Waibel for your LLM course. How was the experience working under his supervision?

    Michael is an amazing supervisor. He understands that the thesis is the work of the student and therefore refrains from enforcing his own opinion. Instead, he debated each argument with me, playing the devil’s advocate sometimes, just so I could look at the issue holistically. He also challenged my thinking by presenting hypothetical situations to ensure that my work was forward-looking. Michael also doesn’t believe in spoon-feeding his students. It is the student’s prerogative to approach him, and decide how best to use the supervision time allotted.

    I also find Michael very approachable. No question is a stupid question for him. He is very patient and is always keen to provide guidance on various matters.

     

    Your thesis was awarded the Nappert Prize in International Law and you were invited to present your paper at McGill University in Montreal law. How did you go about achieving this?

    The Nappert Prize has been instituted by Sophie Nappert, along with the Faculty of Law at McGill University. I was informed of the prize by Michael, who suggested that I could send my thesis for the prize.

    After tweaking my thesis to meet the requirements of the prize, I sent my submission in May 2014. All submissions went through a three stage review. At the first stage, the essays were reviewed by Prof. Andrea Bjorklund of McGill University. The essays shortlisted by her were then sent to the jury which consisted of Professor George Bermann, Teresa Cheng, Professor Cordero-Moss, José Ricardo Feris, Meg Kinnear and Philippe Pinsolle. At the second stage, each essay was reviewed by 2 of the 6 jurors. To be shortlisted for the third stage, each essay had to be approved by both the jurors. Finally, the last stage involved the shortlisted essays being reviewed by all 6 jurors.

    I was informed that my essay was awarded the Nappert Prize in August 2014. As part of the prize, I was invited to present my essay at a symposium held by McGill University. The symposium was part of a conference on the Canada-EU Free Trade Agreement. Needless to say, I found the opportunity to present my work in front of some of the stalwarts of the field to be an enriching experience. In particular, I found their feedback on my work very useful.

     

    Do you think that the Indian law universities need a change to match up to the standards of foreign universities? What can be done in order to make NLUs more conducive for learning? How do you think Indian Universities may improve the education regime?

    I would be writing a short thesis here if I attempted to answer the above questions comprehensively. There is a lot that Indian universities can do to provide a healthy learning environment- by which I do not just mean improving the standard of teaching.

    I have said previously that the Indian education system lacks vision. Enough importance is not given to individual, original, analytical thinking. A lot of the blame for this falls on the lack of innovation among the faculty. A good example would be the answers expected in an Indian law school exam. Professors expect students to find the ‘right’ answer to a problem, failing to realize that, in most cases, the law may be open to multiple ‘right’ answers and it is the ability to identify these multiple interpretations that a professor should be marking. Analytical thinking is developed by mandating regular readings, introducing recent developments in the law into the classroom and encouraging students to submit written work on questions that they find interesting.

    Indian universities also need to invest in attracting talent towards academia. In the current system, academia is looked at as a last resort, for a host of reasons- the pay is not satisfactory, younger members of faculty are not allowed to teach their subject of choice, most institutions do not have access to some basic legal resources (books, online databases, etc.) and for a law graduate starting a career in academia, it could be a major obstacle to conducting research and producing good work.

    Also, foreign universities place a lot of importance on providing guidance to students. I have had law students asking me the “correct” way to structure a research paper, to work on cracking a moot court problem, to apply for internships etc. There is a lot to be learnt from the manner in which assistance is provided abroad- there are dedicated cells to assist with any and every problem that a law student may face, regular workshops to teach students how to conduct research or write a paper and a formal system of coaching for moot court activities, dedicated tutors and mentors to provide individual assistance, etc. This is a model that Indian universities would do well to emulate.

     

    You have worked with the International Arbitration Team of Shearman & Sterling LLP in Paris. What drove you to take up work in a law firm?

    The intention behind joining Shearman & Sterling was to gain some practical experience before starting my Ph.D. and shifting to academia. Almost everyone I spoke to during my LL.M. advised me to commence my Ph.D. only after I had gained some practical experience. I had applied to Shearman & Sterling while at Cambridge because Shearman has one of the biggest arbitration practices. The application process, which involves 2 rounds of interviews (the first by an associate and a counsel, and the second by a partner) took about 6 months.

    While at Shearman, I got to work on both commercial and investment arbitrations. Commercial arbitration is more experimental- there is more scope to strategize and innovate. Investment arbitration on the other hand, is slightly more rigid- the broad contours of the arguments are more standard. I was involved in various stages of an arbitration proceeding- from discussing the strategy, to drafting memos and claims, to filing. Such a wide range of exposure ensured that I understood the arbitration process thoroughly- something that I look forward to using in my Ph.D.

     

    What’s your take on work- life balance? How do you go about it?

    In a field such as ours, where work hours tend to get crazy, I think it’s very important to maintain a work-life balance. I think I learnt the art of balancing work and life while at Cambridge. If there’s one thing we Indians should learn from students abroad, it’s that. They know how to get the maximum out of a day.

    I don’t really have a standard formula. I generally believe in a disciplined life and try to keep a very comprehensive schedule of things that need to be done on any given day. As far as I can, I try not to compromise on anything.

     

    You are going to start your Ph.D at Cambridge later this year. What benefit can the arbitration practitioners derive out of doing Ph.D?

    Strictly speaking, arbitration practitioners (counsels) do not gain much from a Ph.D. Generally, law firms require lawyers with basic skill sets, i.e. lawyers who have an undergraduate degree, because most of the training is on the job.

    A Ph.D. is preferred by people looking to pursue a career in academia.

     

    You bagged TAPP scholarship and got a full scholarship to pursue Ph.D from Cambridge University. How did you get to know about it? What is the application and selection process? What is essential for one to succeed in his/her application? Please share details of the scholarship with us.

    The W.M. Tapp Scholarship is provided by Gonville and Caius College (G&C). A simple search on the University’s funding page is sufficient to identify the scholarships available. I chose to apply for the Tapp Scholarship because I was looking to have my education fully-funded and was not allowed to re-apply for the Commonwealth Scholarship.

    In order to apply for the Tapp Scholarship, you need to first select G&C as your preferred choice of college in the University’s admission form. This is because you need to be accepted by G&C to be eligible for the scholarship. The next step is to submit a specific application to G&C. For a doctoral degree in law, the research proposal has to be attached to the application form. The application has to be supported by two letters of recommendation, preferably by professors you have studied under/worked with. It is important to have at least one recommendation from a professor who taught you during the LL.M. course.

    The Tapp is a very prestigious scholarship for law students. The basic requirement to be awarded the scholarship is a 1st in your master’s degree (or its equivalent). For a doctoral degree, the area of research should be novel, you must have prior publications and a well-rounded CV. The references also go long a way in supporting your application.

     

    What would be your advice for the students planning to pursue higher studies?

    Follow your heart, do not let others influence your decision. Dream big and persevere to achieve those dreams, don’t be side-tracked by minor obstacles. There is a lot of help available, do not be afraid to ask.

    And, use your education to contribute to the (legal) community in whatever small way you can. We can truly make a difference if each one of us makes a small effort to improve the education system in India.

     

  • Sajan Poovayya, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court and Karnataka HC, on Poovayya&Co., managing a firm, higher studies, and litigation

    Sajan Poovayya, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court and Karnataka HC, on Poovayya&Co., managing a firm, higher studies, and litigation

    Sajan Poovayya is a graduate of the 1996 batch of NLSIU, Bangalore. Thereafter, he went on to finish his LL.M. from LSE by 2000. Sajan took the plunge and started up with a law firm Poovayya & Co. right after graduation from NLSIU. After 18 years of looking after the growth and developing the firm Sajan quit his role of Managing Partner in 2012 after being appointed as a Senior Advocate. A former Additional Advocate General for Karnataka he has also served as the Chairman of Karnataka State Council, and the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI).

    In this interview, he talks to us about:

    • Experience as a student at NLSIU
    • Foreign masters, internships and meetings
    • Setting up a firm after college and taking charge of its expansion and development
    • Experience as the Additional Advocate General for Karnataka and Senior Advocate in the Supreme Court
    • Advice to those wanting to set up their own litigation practice

     

    What influenced you to choose law as your profession?

    Although my father is a lawyer and his court room advocacy inspired me early in life, I aspired to become a neurosurgeon, as medicine fascinated and continues to fascinate me. During my 12th standard (second year Pre-University Course as it was then known in Karnataka), I had devoted considerable time for preparation to sit the medical entrance exam. It was in the latter half of my 12th standard that I was brain washed by my father, not so much to consider law as a profession, but to consider the National Law School at Bangalore as an institution to study at.

    My father was inspired by the wonderful work done by Dr. N.R. Madhava Menon, the founder director of National Law School and he used every bit of that to convince me to sit the National Law School of India University (NLSIU) entrance exam. My elder brother was already a student at NLSIU, having entered the institution inthe school’s first batch of students. At that time, NLSIU had no campus or infrastructure facilities whatsoever and operated literally out of a few sheds in the City’s Central College campus. Despite these odds, Dr.Menon had pulled a rabbit out of the hat by building an institution which, by the end of the 1980s, had gained considerable popularity.

    During my occasional visits to the Law School to meet my brother, I had seen Dr. Menon in action. His approach was to deal with every situation hands on and decisively. I was tremendously influenced simply by watching Dr. Menon in action. Clearly, my father’s brain washing skills and Dr. Menon’s personal aura influenced me to choose NLSIU over any medical school. I sat the exam and secured admission. Once in, confusion in my mind remained for some time, but it took me little less than sixty days during the first trimester to realize that law is the profession for me. Love for the law, although not instant, was strongand I must say has remained stable.

     

    Please tell us a bit about your father’s practice and your initial exposure to law.

    My father has had and continues to have an extremely positive influence on me. He continues to be a very active trial lawyer at Coorg despite completing 55 years at the Bar. He is a very soft spoken person but is voracious and vigorous in court. I would, as a high school student in Coorg, accompany my father to the District Court during school vacations. Many a time, I accompanied him in what he did; as his driver, clerk, stenographer, and at times, simply as his chaperon. His court room advocacy certainly inspired me and many others.

    Although a high school student, I would be tasked with transcribing plaints, completing paraphernalia in dockets to make them ready for filing, etc., which exposed me to the practice of law in the mofussil courts. Law was not abstract to me anymore. I realized that I liked what I saw. My early interest in the law was certainly instilled and inspired by my father’s practice, though I continued to aspire to be a doctor until I saw Dr. Menon in action, building NLSIU.

     

    How was life as a law student at NLSIU? What was the University’s role in shaping you into the individual you are today?

    For me, life as a student at NLSIU was fantastic in every sense of the term. I owe every bit of what I am today to the Law School. When I entered NLSIU it may not have had infrastructure but it certainly had attitude. It had built a culture of academic excellence, healthy but not intense competition, and above all, a holistic approach to the study of law. It is the inter-disciplinary approach to legal education that enamoured me the most. NLSIU did not just induct me into legal studies but also shaped my character and changed my personality completely. I had the benefit of having a wonderful group of teachers at NLSIU and each one greatly influenced and motivated me. I continue to thank them at the end of each day for what they have done to me.

    My peers at NLSIU influenced me even more. They completely changed my personality from being an introvert to becoming not only an extrovert but a fighter too. I found everything that I needed at NLSIU; academic excellence, personality development, strong sense of right and wrong, and above all, true love. I have spent the last 24 years with Sanjanthi, my best friend and wife, who I would possibly have never met but for NLSIU.

     

    Many believe graduates from an NLU have it easier in kick-starting a legal career. How truthful is this belief? Does it make any difference to one’s litigation practice?

    It is a myth that a graduate from a National Law University will find it easier to kick start a legal career. Another astounding myth is that graduates from NLUs are always better than graduates from other law colleges. Extraordinary jewels of the legal profession have emanated and continue to emanate from local law colleges. At the same time, not all graduates from NLUs make a mark in the profession.

    I firmly believe that while institutions can equip you for your journey and provide you with good shoes, what you achieve is not dependent upon the shoes you wear but the steps you take. Being a graduate from an NLU certainly helps inasmuch as NLUs do instil an analytical approach to the study of law and a greater degree of capacity to undertake legal research. To that extent, I believe, it will make some difference in one’s litigation practice, but only that far and no further. If one has to excel as a litigator, one should continue to be determined, to provide his or her best to each brief that comes his or her way. Each brief is akin to a step for you to achieve a higher threshold in the legal profession. It is for you to take those steps, firmly and evenly, lest you trip.

     

    How important do you feel are moot court competitionsfor a law student who wishes to pursue litigation?

    Whilst academic and research oriented activities are very helpful in instilling in a student the capacity to work hard and dig deep to find the essence of every legal matter,moot court competitions sharpen the analytical ability and skill sets of a student. Students should participate in moot court competitionsasmuch as possible. As a student, I have enjoyed every moot court competition that I have participated in and I have emerged a better law analyser therefrom.

    Whilst moot courts necessarily do not expose you to the practicality of real life court room situations, they do provide you with some flavour as to how litigations are contested or defended. To be a successful lawyer, consistency and hard work are necessary ingredients. Hard work does not commence post enrolment at the Bar, but from the very moment you seek admission in a law school.

     

    What kind of internships did you undertake as a law student? Which was the most enriching internship experience for you?

    I was clearly inclined towards a career as a litigator. I therefore chose to do every internship of mine with litigators. From my second year at NLSIU, I regularly attended the chambers of my senior and guru in the profession, Mr. S. Vijay Shankar, Senior Advocate and Former Advocate General for Karnataka. I clerked in his chambers on a daily basis, post school hours, through my years at NLSIU. It enormously exposed me to the practice of law in the High Court of Karnataka. The four years of clerking for Mr. Vijay Shankar had sufficiently equipped me to deal with many nuances of drafting, filing and registry processes in the High Court. Mr. Vijay Shankar is one of the most methodical and disciplined lawyers I have known. His methodical approach indeed equipped me with sufficient skill sets. It was clearly one of the most enriching experiences for me.

    That apart, I interned with litigators in the Supreme Court during my summers through law school. One of the most enriching internships in Delhi was with Mr. V.R. Reddy, Senior Advocate and at that time the Additional Solicitor General of India. His capacity to portray some of the most complex legal propositions in the most simplest of terms amazed and inspired me.

     

    What challenges did you have to overcome in setting up a firm soon after graduating from law school?

    (Soon after graduating from NLSIU, Sajan established the firm Poovayya & Co. in Bangalore)

    I graduated as a gold medallist from NLSIU and late Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam handed over the degree tome in the convocation. I was on cloud nine. I had to go through a year’s compulsory post qualification internship before enrolling at the Bar as per the prevailing rules(which fortunately have been changed today). No sooner did I complete my post qualification internship, Poovayya & Co. was established with enormous support from my senior Mr. Vijay Shankar and my father Mr. M. K. Poovayya. It was unusual for lawyers to set up independent chambers or law firms immediately after enrolment at the Bar. When I expressed my desire to do so, my Senior and my father did not once discourage me, they in fact supported me in this venture. I plunged into the profession for I knew in the back of my mind that my father would continue to be a safety net, not so much in terms of finances but in terms of guidance.

    The initial years for Poovayya & Co. were extremely hard but never depressing. It was hard to gain the confidence of clients and the Bench. Hard work continues even today and enormous travel across courts in the country makes it harder. But therecontinue to be happy days and never have I gone home sad at the end of the day.

    I am glad Poovayya & Co. began its journey from Bengaluru and not any other city. Bengaluru, as a city in the mid-1990s, was going through a metamorphosis with corporatization being the buzz word that helped the firm garner quite a lot of work quickly.

    The Karnataka High Court is possibly the best High Court in the nation for a young lawyer to commence a career in litigation. Through my initial years, judges were extremely encouraging. It is for a young lawyer to make the best of such encouragement and aim forhigher thresholds of excellence in the profession. It is a myth that it is hellish for a litigator during the initial years.Hard work is a requirement, no doubt, with lesser amounts of monies compared to corporate non contentious lawyers, but the sense of achievement is extremely gratifying.

     

    Do you still get reminded of your first case and first hearing?

    I do recall my first argument in Court. I enrolled at the State Bar Council at 11.30 am and was out for lunch with Mr. Basavaraj, my immediate senior at the chambers of Mr. Vijay Shankar. Duringlunch, he encouraged me to argue a matter in the Chief Justice’s Court post lunch at 2.30 pm. I knew the matter well on account of my continuous clerkship at the chambers of my Senior.

    Mr. Basavaraj sat beside me in Court as a fulcrum of encouragement. The matter involved a question of incorporation by reference in a legislation. I argued for about forty five minutes, my first ever as a lawyer. I lost the case but received compliments fromthe Bench headed by Mr. R.P. Sethi. A few members of the Bar enquired with Mr. Basavaraj, if I was a Counsel from another High Court, specifically briefed to argue the matter. Failure in the first case was not only sugar coated for me but also became a stepping stone to get here and go on further.

     

    Is it important to have prior connections within the legal field to successfully manage this?

    Prior connections in the legal field are unnecessary and many a time, can be detrimental as well. Prior exposure to the legal field is very necessary and this can be achieved with the help ofinternships and/or clerkships. Prior exposure certainly better equips you to deal with the vagaries of the profession whilst prior connections may not necessarily do so.

     

    What made you choose London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE) for your masters in Information Technology Law? How has your Masters from the prestigious LSE affected your career in the long run?

    I would always recommend a stint at reputed universities abroad, not so much for the quantum of law that you will learn but for the enormous exposure such stint affords you. I have been a fan of LSE since the time I read the works of Bernard Shaw and also for the fact that Dr.Ambedkar, at one point of time, was associated with the institution. I obtained a Master’s degree and thoroughly enjoyed my time at LSE. The fact that I received a fat scholarship which took care of not just academic fees but also expenses for a comfortable living in London was an added incentive. I pursued the solicitor’s programme in parallel and was admitted to Law Society of LES as a solicitor of the Supreme Court of England and Wales.

     

    I realized that the thresholds of academic excellence at NLSIU were as high, if not higher than LSE. Therefore, more than the academic exposure, what I gained most during my stint at London was exposure to how barristers work in the city. I was associated with a few barristers and I would regularly attend hearings (as a visitor) at the Royal Courts of London. Those experiences further reinforced my decision to remain and continue as a litigator.

     

    After having completed your masters in a foreign university, what made you come back to India, instead of setting up a career in the UK?

    India offers one of the most vibrant platforms in the world for a litigator. The quantum and diversity of litigation in India far exceeds anything that UK can offer. I had no doubts ever in my mind that I wanted to litigate and that too in my home country. While I did receive job offers from a few London law firms, they made no sense to me in light of what I always wanted to be, i.e., a litigator. Coming back to India to litigate was therefore a natural choice for me and I am very glad I did.

     

    How was your experience working as the State Government’s lawyer?Would you consider taking up such work in the future?

    (Sajan was the Additional Advocate General for Karnataka from November 2012 to May 2013)

    I officiated as an Additional Advocate General for Karnataka for about a year and was the sole Additional Advocate General for the State of Karnataka for good part of the tenure. I thoroughly enjoyed my tenure. What made it even more special for me was that my chamber senior Mr. Vijay Shankar was the Advocate General, officiating for the second term. Sixteen years prior thereto, in 1996, he had commenced his first term as the Advocate General for Karnataka during which time I was his chamber junior and had closely worked under him in many matters of importance. The opportunity to work with him again and that too as his Additional Advocate General was indeed a wonderful experience.

    I firmly believe that all litigators should, at some point of time in their careers, work for the State or the Union. The dimensions of work that you experience as a senior law officer for the State or Union far transcends the exposure that private practice can offer. Representing the State or Union as a senior law officer in the midst of multiple bureaucratic constraints makes you not just a better lawyer but a more mature human being. For a successful private practitioner, occupying such position also affords the opportunity to contribute to the profession and give a little back to the society. An efficient lawyer as a law officer can make an enormous difference to the State and consequently to the society. I will certainly consider taking up such positions as and when, and if at all, they are offered to me.

     

    What would be your advice to recent law graduates when they are faced with the choice between joining law chambers of a Senior Advocate, or working with an up-and-coming new lawyer?

    It does not matter whether you join the chambers of aSenior Advocate or work with an up-and-coming new lawyer. As a young lawyer, fresh off mint, one should join a chamber which has a wide variety of work. It is extremely important for a litigator to experience a wide area of contentious practice, rather than restrict oneself to a particular specialized vertical. The greater the exposure to a variety of legal work, better will you emerge as a lateral thinker. The key aspects that a lawyer should look for in a chamber are therefore: (i) variety of work; and (ii) opportunity to handle litigations completely, however minor they may be.

     

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    Should one start out at the Trial Courts before proceeding to the High Court if one has no connections in the legal arena? Or would you recommend joining a litigation firm instead?

    Practice as a trial lawyer is crucial and sets the foundations for a successful practice. One cannot aspire to become a successful appellate counsel sans any trial experience, although there may be exceptions. I find many lawyers starting out directly at High Courts which do not have original jurisdiction or even in the Supreme Court. Whilst that may work for a few, it is not the most desirable path to tread. It is not necessary for a few years to be exclusively devoted to trial work. It has been my experience that a good blend of trial and appellate practice simultaneously helps in the overall development of a litigator.

    For youngsters who are determined to climb the vertical of litigation practice, I would highly recommend joining a reputed litigation firm which has considerable trial and appellate work.

     

    How would you encourage students to keep their determination to enter litigation alive instead of joining corporate firms, owing to the lack of financial stability in the former?

    Gone are the days when it was tough surviving the first few years in the litigation arena. Young litigators no more receive merely subsistence allowances. Almost all law chambers offer a fairly adequate remuneration for a young junior counsel. When I entered the profession, a thousand rupees per month for a junior was considered a princely sum, as most chambers typically offered less than half of that.

    Juxtapose to the present day, where junior litigators are paid sufficiently to maintain a decent lifestyle if not a luxurious one. Certainly, litigation initially offers far less, in terms of financial rewards, as compared to corporate law firms. However, the sense of achievement and satisfaction is unparalleled. What you need therefore is the determination to survive as a litigator. The growth curve in litigation is so steep that in a few years, a diligent litigator will not just surpass his peers in corporate law firms but also achieve far greater thresholds of professional success (and financial success too).

     

    How do you prepare for a good case? What would be your tips and advice to young lawyers?

    There are no good or bad cases. There are only good or bad lawyers. When one begins preparations for a brief, one should never pre-judge the matter. The case is what it is and it is for you to extract the best out of it and weave sound legal arguments around it. My candid advice for young lawyers is to prepare every brief as if there is no tomorrow. ‘Complete Preparation’ is the mantra. It is certainly not sufficient for you to prepare your arguments on what you believe are the merits of your case. The mantra for success is in being prepared with as many arguments against your proposition and in finding counters to each of those, such that you will ultimately emerge victorious. Young lawyers should also bear in mind that many a time, litigations are lost on procedural issues despite substantial merits in the matter. Never ignore procedure. I have found thirty minutes’ preparation for every minute of submission in Court to be a fairly helpful yardstick. In complex matters, however, the yardstick can extend to an hour’s preparation for every minute’s submission.

     

    Do you have plans for the future expansion of Poovayya & Co.? Are business development skills necessary when it comes to running a firm nation-wide?

    Pursuant to my designation as Senior Advocate, I quit the law firm Poovayya & Co. Whilst there exists debate around the question as to whether a Senior Advocate can or should continue as partner in a law firm, I have always maintained that once designated, Senior Advocates should not hold direct interests in or control law firms. It is extremely difficult for a Senior Advocate to disconnect himself from clients and client aspirations, if he continues to hold equity or proprietary interests in a law firm.

    When I quit Poovayya & Co. and demitted offices as the firm’s managing partner, I was reasonably certain that the firm has matured to a level that it would continue to grow without me. The firm’s existing partners have done a splendid job in continuing its growth in each of its four offices. Poovayya & Co. as a firm has continued to prosper with significant year-on-year growth, independent of me. Whether to expand the firm further with newer offices in other cities is for the firm’s existing partners to decide.

    On the question of business development skills, I have a slightly non-traditional view. Having run a law firm for almost 18 years, I believe that it is your work which should be your brand ambassador and the best marketing partner you can ever have. Almost the entirework being undertaken by Poovayya & Co. has come from the previous and existing clients’ references. I therefore believe that capacity to market is irrelevant for building a successful law practice.

     

    What do you look for when you hire lawyers under you? Can academic experience replace work experience and the ability to deliver?

    What I would see in a young lawyer during the recruitment process is the following: (i) capacity and inclination to work hard; and (ii) rational & analytical thought process.

    Academic excellence, at times, demonstrates the candidate’s capacity to work hard. It is impossible to compare or choose between academic excellence and work experience. One does not substitute the other. What you need is a combination of both.

     

    Do you find it easy to maintain a work-life balance? How do you unwind after a hard day’s work?

    The concept of work-life balance has been hyped in India and sometimes discussions around it are unnecessary. The debate on ‘work-life balance’ pre-supposes that you do not enjoy your work and therefore do not see ‘life’ in it. For a lawyer who enjoys his work, a lot of his life is woven around his work. If you enjoy what you do as a lawyer, you may be tired at the end of the day but are never stressed. My work keeps me packed for a good part of the day and the night. Travels between the Supreme Court and various High Courts makes it a little worse in terms of time management. That said, I do find sufficient time to spend with my family and I cherish every moment of what I get with them. The best form of relaxation is to spend time with your family and loved ones.

    I also collect and restore old automobiles and that passion helps me unwind. Strumming Carnatic classical tunes on the mandolin is another way for me to unwind.  Music is a great way to de-stress. Lawyers should plan their work in such a manner that they have sufficient time to do things other than law and spend time with their loved ones.

     

    What is the one advice you would like to give our readers?

    Never underestimate the power of ‘here’ and ‘now’. When at work, give all of what you have to it, in terms of sincerity, labour, time and attention. Always have an eye for detail. When you are at work, switch on ‘work’ and switch off the ‘world’.  When you are not working switch off ‘law’ and switch on the ‘world’. Doing things other than law will invariably make you a better lawyer!

    To be a superlative litigator, you should be a maverick with a strong moral fibre.

  • Divyam Agarwal, Senior Associate, J. Sagar Associates, on higher studies from LSE, cracking the AOR exam and experience in Litigation

    Divyam Agarwal, Senior Associate, J. Sagar Associates, on higher studies from LSE, cracking the AOR exam and experience in Litigation

    Divyam Agarwal graduated from Amity Law School in 2007 and went on to do a Master’s from The London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE) in 2008. Today, he is a Senior Associate at J. Sagar Associates and has extensive experience in Commercial & Civil Litigation matters as well as commercial arbitrations.

    A qualified Advocate-on-Record of the Supreme Court of India, in this interview Divyam shares with us:

    • The importance of learning the art of advocacy in law school through moot courts
    • His take on how to apply for Master’s at the prestigious LSE
    • Experience of working at a Tier-I law firm
    • The method of preparing for the difficult AOR Exam

     

    Please share with us how you chose to study law. Do you have lawyers in your family?

    While growing up, I had no specific inclination towards taking up law as a profession. With the passage of time and after closely observing my maternal grandfather who was a reputed taxation lawyer in UP as well as my father who is a chartered accountant, I realized that a person having knowledge of law thinks rationally and objectively in not only professional situations but also in day to day affairs of life. Though I was initially hesitant, after joining my law course, I developed a keen interest in law subjects, particularly those pertaining to dispute resolution. One thing led to another and I found my calling.

     

    How was your experience at Amity Law School?

    Studying at Amity Law School was a great experience. Apart from the regular course structure, we were given ample opportunities to participate in several moot court competitions and other such events. Another advantage of studying at Amity Law School was the fact that the college was based in Delhi and I got several opportunities to intern with practicing lawyers and well-known law firms.

     

    Could you tell us about the internships you undertook during this period? How do you believe one should structure their internships during law school to provide the maximum exposure?

    My internships were spread out evenly in the corporate sector as well as litigation. Even though my interest all along had been to pursue dispute resolution, in order to make a reasoned and well informed decision, I decided to intern in a corporate setup, so as to assess work involved therein and my inclination towards the same.

    It is advisable to evenly spread internships and gain exposure in maximum possible areas of law. This helps in identifying the right practice area. Another way for maximizing the benefits of internships is to link the internships with the nature of subjects which one is being taught concurrently in college.

     

    You were an avid mooter in law school. Please share with us your achievements and experiences in mooting.

    All law students must hone their oratory skills by regularly participating in moot court competitions. I represented my law school in many competitions and was fortunate to win several accolades. I was part of the team that won the national rounds of Stetson International Environment Law Moot and we represented India at the World Rounds held at Florida, USA. At the World Rounds, our team made it to the quarter finals and I was declared the third best oralist. My love for mooting continued even during my stint at LSE. I was part of the team that represented LSE at Willem C. Vis Moot held at Vienna. Mooting not only aided me in overcoming any possible unease in presenting my thoughts in an effective manner but also improved my inter-personal skills and confidence.

     

    What was your motivation to go abroad for higher studies? How should one go about applying for premier foreign universities like LSE?

    (Divyam pursued a Master’s from the prestigious LSE)
    Although it is a common perception that lawyers intending to practice in the dispute resolution sphere do not necessarily require higher qualification than LLB degrees and higher qualification is often considered to be a means for personal gratification, I have always been of the view that to truly understand the ethos and ever evolving dynamics of any subject, law or any other, it is imperative that one should refine their knowledge by pursuing higher education in their chosen field.

    LSE being one of the premier institutes was a logical choice. I was really impressed with the quality of the faculty for my area of interest. Also, from my research I noted that at LSE the emphasis during classes was on discussions and deliberations regarding practical application of theoretical concepts. This difference in approach was one of the key factors which made me opt for LSE. On a lighter note, the fact that I had been awarded the K.R. Narayanan Scholarship for my Master’s course at LSE made the decision a no brainer!

    Applications at LSE are considered strictly on academic merit. It is imperative to have a good aggregate coupled with mooting and internship experience. Aspirants should concentrate on preparing a focused Statement of Purpose and also obtain Letters of Recommendation from legal luminaries and academicians whom they have been associated with.

     

    How did you zero in on Arbitration as your specialization for your Master’s?

    Arbitration as an alternate dispute resolution mechanism has always fascinated me. In my law school days, courts were shaping the arbitration law at an alarming pace. Substantial advances had been made in foreign jurisdictions especially in the United Kingdom and the principles of alternate dispute resolution and arbitration were well established there. As such, when it came to my Master’s degree, understanding the nuances of international commercial arbitration was a natural choice.

     

    How was the experience at LSE? How do you think it has helped you?

    As clichéd it may sound, at LSE I had the best experience of my life. The whole spirit of LSE –taught by brilliant minds, sharing space with exceptional students from around the world and the overall vibe of the city– was really an enriching experience.

    I found my time at LSE to be both inspirational and essential formy future career. It has given me a broad understanding of the world from a legal perspective which I have found relevant to everything from work in the office to chats in the pub.

     

    Students wishing to pursue Master’s should prefer a chance abroad or in India?

    I believe every law student, given the opportunity, must go for Master’s abroad. The transnational exposure and interaction with lawyers/law students from other jurisdictions helps one in gaining invaluable experiences. It is definitely worth pursuing Master’s from abroad. It changes you in the way you think about everything around you.

     

    How did you proceed after your Master’s?

    In my final year of law school I had interned at J. Sagar Associates. During my internship, I was fortunate to receive a placement offer from the Dispute Resolution team. After the completion of my Master’s, I approached the firm and was given an opportunity to work with them. That’s how my journey with JSA began.

     

    How has the experience of working for the Dispute Resolution Team of a Tier I law firm been?

    (Divyam is currently a Senior Associate at J. Sagar Associates)

    Working at JSA has been an enriching experience. I have recently completed 7 years with the firm, yet each day I continue to learn something new. Each day possesses a different challenge and I look forward to the same. Initially, it was challenging to match the high standards of the organization. However, over the years I have been able to fit myself in and now I strive towards achieving JSA’s vision and mission.

     

    In a profession known to take its toll on one’s personal life, how do you manage to find time for yourself?

    Dispute Resolution is one of the most demanding practice areas. My day is a mix of court appearances, drafting, research work, client meetings and briefing senior counsels. The key lies in effective time management. One trick I have learnt and have followed over the years is to monitor my sleep cycle and squeeze some time either late in night or early morning and finish some chores at home. This allows me greater flexibility throughout the day and a window for attending to my family life. As Thomas Edison once said and I quote “Most people overeat 100 percent and oversleep 100 percent, because they like it. That extra 100 percent makes them unhealthy and inefficient”.

     

    Do Indian law firms value an LL.M. from abroad? Does the lack of an NLU tag hurt one’s chances?

    I feel in India you don’t get enough recognition or weightage for having obtained higher qualification. However, of late the trend has started to shift towards recognizing such higher qualifications, which bodes well for future aspirants who wish to pursue LL.M. from abroad.

    In so far as the lack of an NLU tag is concerned, I have not experienced any such discrimination. Unlike some firms around, JSA has a very open and acceptable culture towards other law schools. Here it is all about merit. You don’t get any extra stars for carrying an NLU chip on your shoulder.

     

    What suggestions would you have for aspirants looking at clearing the notoriously difficult AOR exam of the Supreme Court of India?

    (Divyam recently cleared the AOR exam and got the 4th rank)

    Be aware of the current legal position. There are so many legal initiatives which regularly notify us with new developments. Questions are often inspired by recent developments in law. Also it would be helpful to have practical exposure. Take time out and visit the Registry and Listing Branches of the Supreme Court with your office clerk and witness how court filings are actually done. This will really help you in understanding and appreciating the procedural aspect. And of course do not miss the lectures which are organized by Supreme Court Registry and Supreme Court Bar Association. They are very helpful.

     

    It is being debated whether there actually is a need of the AOR system in the Apex Court. What are your views on the necessity of the AOR system in the Supreme Court?

    AORs play a vital and constructive role in the justice delivery system. The court system being pyramidal in structure makes the Supreme Court as the Court of last resort, so it is imperative to have effective representation by an Advocate, who is trained and well equipped to deal with the niceties and requirements of the Supreme Court.

     

    Where do you see yourself a decade down the line?

    I live by what excites me in life. Presently, I am happy with what I am doing. The work continues to excite me and thus, I believe I see myself growing with the firm.

     

     

  • Himanshu Sharma, MBA Candidate, IIM Ahmedabad, on all about studying MBA from IIMA

    Himanshu Sharma, MBA Candidate, IIM Ahmedabad, on all about studying MBA from IIMA

    Himanshu Sharma is a recent graduate from Gujarat National Law University, GNLU (2015). In his final year, he cracked Common Admission Test (CAT) to secure his admission in IIM-Ahmedabad. During his time in Law school, he interned at FICCI in their Intellectual Property Facilitation Centre, New Delhi and was a judicial clerk working under Justice Kurian Joseph.

    In this interview he talks about:

    • His Law school experience;
    • His work at FICCI and with Justice Kurian Joseph; and
    • All about cracking CAT and getting through IIM Ahmedabad
    • Faculty, facilities and the atmosphere at IIM-A.

     

    Himanshu, tell us a bit about yourself.

    I am currently a student of PGP-1 (MBA in colloquial terms) at Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad. I completed my graduation from Gujarat National Law University, Gandhinagar in 2015 and joined IIM-A after a barely month long break. I am a native of Dharamshala (H.P.) and love spending my time reading and gaming.

     

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    Tell us a bit about your childhood and pre-college life. Did you have lawyers in your family?

    I grew up and attended school in the hill towns of Shimla and Dharamshala. My pre-college life was very calm and laid-back with not much academic pressure as such. I used to spend much time playing video games. Interestingly, I am the first lawyer in my family. My extended family comprises solely of doctors and teachers.

     

    Why did you decide to study Law? What inspired you to do so?

    Law as a career was not my first choice. I was a science (non-medical) student in Class XII and was keen on pursuing engineering post school. However, during my last year in school, I realized that Law as a career also interested me. So I prepared for CLAT as well. The CLAT rank turned out to be really good and my parents convinced me that for a person like me, Law would be a much better option than engineering as they believed my skills were more suited towards it. Looking back, I somehow feel that taking up Law was one of the best decisions of my life, as it exposed me to a much broader learning experience than what would have been possible pursuing engineering.

     

    How was your experience at GNLU, Gandhinagar? How did you go about your academics as well as extra-curricular activities? Were you into mooting?

    The five years at GNLU have been nothing short of fantastic. I met amazing people here, learnt from some of the best teachers and did almost everything possible under the sun that I felt like doing. Academics at GNLU was not much of a burden as the course was evenly spread out over the different semesters. Any difficulties that I faced were resolved with the help of teachers or friends and seniors. GNLU students are also lucky to have a very active extra-curricular life. Almost every fortnight there used to be some activity or the other, ranging from simple music nights to week long sports leagues. I took part in as many as I felt comfortable with. I was not much into mooting as getting into mooting is a serious affair and time and energy needs to be dedicated. I represented the University in only two national moots, once in my first year and the next time in my third year.

     

    How was your experience serving various student committees at GNLU?

    The only committee I served in GNLU was the sports committee, which was a very good experience as it led to bonding with many people I would not have known otherwise. Working for the sports community at GNLU was also a pleasure. Also, from the experience of seeing my friends work with various committees, I cannot stress enough the hard work put in by such committees for the benefit of students. Whether it is the SAC or the MCC or the LSC, they keep on working throughout the year for the betterment of the student community at GNLU.

     

    Give some insights of your internship experience at FICCI in their Intellectual Property Facilitation Centre, New Delhi.

    I interned at the IP Facilitation centre of FICCI, New Delhi as IPR has always been my favourite area of Law since a long time. The work there mostly comprised of research on various ongoing events in the IP sector. A substantial work assigned to me was the preparation of a course booklet on IPR for high school students, to introduce them to the basics of IP Law and their importance. The work turned out to be quite challenging as the booklet had to be designed keeping in mind the limited exposure to Law for the students. Overall, the internship was a fun and learning experience. The interns also got the opportunity to meet luminaries in the field of IP Law at times.

     

    You did a Judicial Clerkship at Himachal Pradesh High Court under Hon’ble Chief Justice Kurian Joseph. What is the process of application? What do you think contributed to your selection?

    Interning under Hon’ble Justice Kurian Joseph was a wonderful experience. One of my batchmates and I both applied through the Registrar of the High Court and both got selected for the internship. However, the final decision was taken by the Hon’ble Chief Justice himself after having a short conversation with both of us. It would be really difficult to quantify the criteria of selection but I think all that mattered were that we were confident and open to learning.

     

    What kind of assignments did you get and what was your nature of work as an intern?

    The assignments were almost always about some small technicality that had arisen in some matter being adjudicated by the Justice Joseph. Rather than the work though, it was the few small discussions we had with Justice Joseph in his free time that provided us with a much better understanding of various aspects of Constitutional and Administrative Law. The whole experience also contributed much towards my learning of our judicial system.

     

    You are also interested in sports and were a member of the University Sports Committee and University Basketball Team. Tell us a bit about it.

    Being involved in every co-curricular or extra-curricular activity is not of much use if the same is done just for the sake of it and is not enjoyed. I think students would be at no loss if they focus on say one or two such activities only, if they enjoy what they are doing. From the perspective of enhancing the profile though, especially from the perspective of attending a B-school later, taking part in as many co-curricular or extra-curricular activities as you can is beneficial in the long run, as thy help distinguish you from other candidates during admissions.

     

    What prompted you to choose MBA after graduation and why not an LL.M or a Law firm job?

    I had not even thought much about post-graduation till my 3rd year. But as the 3rd year was almost ending, I realized that I really did not have much enthusiasm in me towards a corporate Law firm job. I found corporate Law to be very procedural and mundane. Pursuing IP Law was another option for me, but I felt that it would restrict me to a very niche field. So I gradually drifted towards going for post-graduation. I did not rule out an LL.M. right away, but somehow chose to go for an MBA over it as it seemed to offer better benefits in the form of diverse learning as well as a different career path. A very close friend also played an instrumental role in motivating me for pursuing an MBA.

     

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    When did you exactly start preparing for the CAT? When should a person ideally start preparation for the CAT and other management exams?

    I started preparing for CAT and other entrance exams when I started my 4th year at GNLU. So essentially, I prepared for almost one and a half year. However, I would not say that this is the ideal time limit for anyone who wants to prepare for the same. I have seen people cracking CAT after preparing for just four to six months, while some have taken close to 3-4 years to get into a B-school of their choice. It all depends on the kind of effort a person is willing to put in. I took more time because I was not very comfortable with the Quantitative section. Also during the first year of preparation, I prepared at a leisurely pace, putting in approximately 8-10 hours of work in a week.

     

    Did you get yourself enrolled in a coaching institute? How valuable do you think coaching institutions can be for MBA?

    I enrolled myself in a coaching institute as soon as I started preparation for CAT. For me, it was very valuable as they provided a comprehensive set of study material and scheduled mock exams at regular intervals. Having classes regularly also helped me pace my preparation as per a fixed schedule and not lag behind in any particular topic. The input of the coaching institution was even more valuable while preparing for the interviews as they guided me very well on how to handle and be confident during all sorts of interview scenarios.

     

    Which coaching institute did you go to? Was it possible for you to attend every class?

    I studied at a coaching institute named ‘Endeavor Careers’, with the center located approximately 4 km from the University. The classes were scheduled on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays from 7-9 pm. There was a study room that was open 24 hours, 365 days a year. There was also a well-stocked library for the CAT aspirants to hone their English skills. Extra classes were also scheduled sometimes on weekends. Additionally, once the mock tests started, students were allotted slots for the same based on their preferences so as to avoid any clash with college schedules. I would say I roughly attended 90% of the classes, missing out mostly when I went for my internships or had some prior personal engagement. Backup classes were provided by the institute whenever students missed a class for a genuine application. Also, at the end of my 4th year, I opted not to go for internships and stayed in the University campus during May and June so that I could attend classes at the institute.

     

    How many hours did you put in for your preparations every day? Is it important to have a fixed schedule or weekly targets?

    As said earlier, it all depends on the person. For the first year, I would study a maximum of 2-3 hours a day. However, in the last six months, I studied anywhere from 4-8 hours daily, depending on my other workload. I had my fixed schedule only in the form of classes that I attended at my coaching institute. Other than that, I mostly stuck to determining weekly or fortnightly targets and then reaching them at my pace.

     

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    How did the other management entrance tests like MAT & XAT turn out to be?

    I took exams for other institutes such as XAT, IIFT, NMAT, etc. I cleared some of them while in some I did pretty badly. It all boils down to not losing your nerve and remaining calm when you have a set time limit to attempt a lot of questions. CAT however, gave me the chance to get into the best B-school of the country.

     

    CAT is one of the toughest management exams. How did you prepare and accustom yourself with these tough subjects?

    CAT can be said to be one of the toughest management exams, but all it requires is knowledge of English, High School level Mathematics, and Logical Reasoning. All these can be prepared easily over time. CAT anyways does not test the conceptual knowledge of candidates solely; rather it places more emphasis on the application of this knowledge. Then it becomes important for the candidate to have a calm and analytical approach towards questions, thinking about the best ways to attempt it, and not just approaching it in a conventional way.

     

    Which books/materials did you rely on while preparing?

    I only referred to the study material provided to me by my coaching institution for preparation, as it was more than sufficient to cover all topics.

     

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    Lakhs of people attempt the CAT exam and only a thousand get shortlisted for the interview and secure admission to a top B – School. Which are the prime skills and expertise required to crack the CAT?

    What my experience with CAT tells me is that in the end, what matters is your approach towards the exam, rather than your preparation for it. If you approach it with a calm and rational mind, you will crack it. Since wrong answers carry a negative score, it is very important to be confident of your answers. Questions can be tricky, generally the most obvious (but wrong) answer would be the first option. So you need to analyse a problem from all angles and be sure that you have not missed out on any important information. Also, I have seen many brilliant candidates faring badly in the exam because their nerves got the better side of them. Being calm and confident is thus the key to cracking CAT.

     

    What strategy did you take to crack the interview?

    I got approximately 22 days to prepare for the interview after the shortlist for IIM Ahmedabad came out. It was my first interview for any of the B-schools I had applied to and so I was quite nervous in the initial days. Over the days, however, I put in a lot of effort towards preparation and grew more confident. I read up a lot about the current events happening in the world, as well as our country. I had been reading newspapers regularly for the past couple of months so it was not that difficult. I also brushed up many of the subjects I had studied in Law school with the help of my friends and teachers. My coaching institute mentors also conducted many mock interviews with me, which helped a lot in getting a feeling of the real day.

     

    What kind of questions have you been asked in the interview? Give some tips to nail an interview in order to secure admission to a top B–School.

    For IIM Ahmedabad, the interview lasted around 30-35 minutes. The initial 20 minutes were spent on academic questions. In the very beginning, the interviewers asked me my favourite subjects in college (IPR and Constitutional Law were my answers). The discussion moved from the benefits of IP protection, to the Novartis case and finally to the newly formed NITI Aayog. The latter part of the interview was mostly about current affairs and how comfortable I was with solving a question on probability. There were also some general questions about my family, my taste in literature and movies, and a very unexpected technical question on basketball.

    For other institutes, such as XLRI or other IIM(s), the interviews were again broadly based on academics, current affairs and situational questions. What I feel is that for a B-school interview, firstly you have a decent hold of your academic subjects and world affairs, and secondly, you should be able to convince the interviewers that you are open to learning and will contribute to the institution.

     

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    Which subject interests you the most? Share with our readers.

    IIM Ahmedabad does not have any diversification between different streams. In the first year, all courses are compulsory, with optional courses being offered in the second year. As of now, I find myself interested in Consulting and Marketing.

     

    How is the academic pressure at IIM-A? What is a normal workday like?

    The academic pressure at IIM-A (or any other B-school) is much more intense than at a Law school. Classes here are from 8:45 am to 1:10 pm, five days a week. Most subjects use a case based approach to teaching, so the required cases for each class have to be studied and understood the previous day. Additionally, all the quizzes (tests as they are called here) are surprise quizzes, with a quiz being held one hour post its announcement in the afternoon. There is also work involved if a student is the member of any club or committee. A normal workday essentially involves reaching the class in time, waiting for a quiz announcement at 1:45 pm if any. Then it’s either giving the quiz at 2:45 pm or catching a few hours of sleep if there is no quiz. Evenings can be spent studying, playing or engaged in any other activity. Post dinner it is usually class preparation for the next day. A student cannot miss classes other than for health reasons or on account of some urgent work that requires so.

     

    Tell us a bit about the faculty and the facilities of IIM-A.

    The faculties with whom I have had interactions till now are experts in their respective fields of study, holding post-doctoral degrees. Classes here are interactive, with the faculty putting much emphasis on student participation. In terms of facilities, we have a 24 hour library, sports facilities for all major sports, gymnasia, 5-6 cafes (with room delivery available) in addition to the mess, single occupancy rooms and LAN connectivity in rooms (in addition to WiFi).

     

    Tell us a bit about the cultural environment at IIM-A. Are most of them young students or senior professionals?

    My batch here consists of a heterogeneous mixture of students from all sorts of backgrounds. There are freshers like me, while there are also students with 4-5 years of work experience. In addition to engineers, we have chartered accountants, commerce/ economics graduates and doctors in the batch. There is a healthy representation from almost all the states of the country. This results in a very diverse cultural and professional environment, which in turn greatly amplifies the learning experience of the students.

     

    What all activities can one partake of at IIM-A?

    There is no dearth of activities to take part at IIM-A. It is purely left to the choice of the students. There are clubs focusing on all sorts of activities, ranging from the likes of technology and finance to the likes of music/ movies and stargazing. There are also a lot of competitions in diverse fields of management to take part in. Additionally, students can also volunteer in social initiatives such as Prayaas and SMILE, both of which cater to providing education for underprivileged children.

     

    Where do you want to see yourself five years from now?

    Well, to be unabashedly optimistic, I would like to see myself as a partner of a consulting firm or in the senior management of an FMCG company after five years. However, to be realistic, my life at IIM Ahmedabad has just started and I would like to learn more about the opportunities available, before I decide on a career path.

     

    Would you like to be an entrepreneur after finishing MBA?

    Law and Management is one of the most potent combinations when it comes to economic activities as both are inextricably linked in the larger scheme of running businesses.

    As of now, I have not considered pursuing any entrepreneurial venture. However, IIM Ahmedabad has its very own Centre for Innovation, Incubation and Entrepreneurship which helps students pursue and kickstart their ventures. So in case I do get bitten by the entrepreneurial bug, I would be more than happy to pursue my own venture.

     

    What is your message for Law students who want to choose MBA as a career after pursuing Law?

    In India, MBA after pursuing Law is not very common, and I had had my shares of frowns and weird looks when initially I told people of my decision. Their usual reaction used to be that this kid has gone bonkers, an MBA is not for lawyers. However, I had the full support of my family and friends, who kept me motivated throughout my preparation period.

    I believe that an MBA is a very valuable degree especially for a lawyer, as each and every business is inextricably linked with Law in the larger scheme of things. Leading a business can thus be relatively easier for a person who understands the intricacies of the Law within which the business has to operate. Also, there are hardly any non-engineers and non-commerce students in Indian B-schools. Thus students with a background like Law or medicine are highly valued due to the diverse skill set they bring to the institution. If a person is keen on going to a B-school, he/she should just be sure about it and prepare with confidence. The Law degree will only help in later stages, and never be a hampering factor.

  • Charitha Shashiraj, LL.M Candidate, Harvard Law School, on all about Harvard and Magic Circle Traineeship

    Charitha Shashiraj, LL.M Candidate, Harvard Law School, on all about Harvard and Magic Circle Traineeship

    Charitha Shashiraj graduated from NALSAR, Hyderabad in 2014. She went for a Vacation Scheme at Linklaters and Allen & Overy and thereafter, secured a job at Linklaters, London. However, she chose to pursue an LL.M from Harvard Law School over the Magic Circle job.

    In this interview she talks about:

    • Application and the admission process at Harvard Law School
    • Faculty, facility and opportunities at Harvard
    • Application process and importance of vacation schemes in Magic Law Firms

     

    How did you choose law as a career option?

    I’m a first-generation lawyer in my family and when I was in school, like most people I harbourednotionsof lawyers as peoplewho milled around in courts in billowing black robes.So law was not something I had planned to doinitially, I was more of a math-and-science-freak. A friend of mine who was a year up in school convinced me otherwise after joining NLS.

    I think it was CLAT that brought home the point that law was as much about logic, reasoning and creativity as the sciences. And when I was cleared to go to one of the best law schools in the country at the time, I took it as a sign.

     

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    How was your NALSAR experience?

    NALSAR gave me opportunities that I know I would have found nowhere else and I cannot emphasize how grateful I am for it.

    I went to Singapore for an exchange programme in my third year, mooted at national and international moots, wrote papers, chaired editorial boards, taught the junior batches, interned at every opportunity and so much else, and did well at almost everything only because NALSAR gives us the resources and support to excel not just at academics, but at other things as well. Throughout law school, I learned to open my mind and question established norms in society. Activism and social change is a huge dimension of NALSAR’s education and while I might not always have been an active participant, I never failed to appreciate that it was the best part of law school. Ultimately, we had the best of everything- intellectual discussions peaked, top tier law firms in the country vied to take us, Magic Circle firms from London came down for interviews and the best universities in the world opened their gates for us.

     

    Tell us a bit about the Entrepreneurship and Business Law Diploma online programme from NUJS. How did it help you?

    The EABL course attracted my attention primarily because something of this nature was almost unheard of in Indian law schools. Law students are often heard complaining that there’s not much we draw from classes on corporate law when it comes to actually working in a law firm. In that respect, the EABL Diploma course was bound to be an immediate success- directly hearing from practitioners in the field and working through problems based on real transactions, that’s the only possible way learning in theory can transition into practice. I distinctly recall accessing some of EABL’s documents when I was working on a Banking problem in AMSS, to understand what related laws I should be looking into. The reading material was really impressive- it was concise and organized, yet comprehensive. It was incredibly helpful and I’d highly recommend it to anyone who’s looking to make a mark in the corporate law sector.

     

    Which firms did you apply to? What is the selection process in Linklaters and what does the firm expect from an Indian law student?

    I sat my interviews for Linklaters and Allen and Overy in the penultimate year of law school and eventually chose to go to Linklaters. That’s where I’ll be headed in September to start as a Trainee Solicitor. The key to securing a place in these firms is to think on your feet. The application process is much like your LL.M applications, but the interviews really test how fast and how creatively you think. Be prepared to answer HR questions that aimto test your skill set, which you will be asked to exemplify using various examples from your life. More important though is the technical interview, which would entail a basic working knowledge of how an M&A transaction works and what purpose a Due Diligence Report serves. Linklaters has a series of logical reasoning tests that you have to go through, the kind that CLAT tests you on. And a simulated exercise where you have to answer a set of emails within a stipulated time that gauges how you would, as a Trainee, respond to different and difficult situations in the firm. A&O has a similar exercise that requires you to peruse a DD Report in a particular time frame and answer questions about the transaction. The questions are definitely more logic than knowledge based but it does assume a basic understanding of corporate law. You also need to have some basic knowledge about the firm itself, its offices and some of the transactions that are currently ongoing.

     

    Please tell us a bit about your vacation scheme experience.

    In my personal experience, these Vacation Schemes were significantly different from Indian Internships. They genuinely care about giving you the best possible training and the entire internship is very structured and organized to the last possible detail. It is as much about you choosing them as they choosing you and they make every effort to impress you. You sit with the supervisor assigned to overlook your work throughout, so help is available at any and every point in time. Senior trainees and associates are more than willing to make time for you if you approach them for help, even if they have their hands full with their own work. Trainees do a lot of the paperwork once the decisions have been made, editing and sometimes even drafting the supplemental agreements, especially in the smaller groups. We attend conference calls and client meetings as well. There is plenty of opportunity to relax and catch up with colleagues during team activities, retreats and over evening drinks. You might have to put in some long hours on some days, but I think it’s worth the effort.

     

    After that, you went on to pursue LL.M. from Harvard Law School. What were the other universities of choice?

    Honestly, I was unsure whether I should continue to study further since I already had an offer from Linklaters. I decided that I would opt for an LL.M only if it was one of the best in the world and so I applied only to Oxbridge and Harvard, given their unparalleled reputation. Yale and Columbia would probably have been my other choices, if I had to choose more.

     

    Did you consider taking up a job in the USA itself? What were the opportunities available to you?

    I wanted to keep my options open, but most legal positions in the US require you to take the Bar Exam. There are certain basic courses that are pre-requisites to take the Bar but these cut significantly into the credits available for the academic year and prevented me from diversifying into courses that I was really interested in. Eventually, I decided that I didn’t want to forego the rare opportunity that Harvard afforded me – to study thought-provoking courses with stellar professors who in many cases are the world’s foremost experts on the topic. I was fairly secure since I had a job lined up already and in any case I preferred London’s more refined lifestyle to the American way of life. It was a hard decision I made at the time, but I think all in all a good one.

     

    What was the admission process for securing a seat at Harvard Law School?

    The admissions process for the Harvard LL.M proceeds in several stages. Applications are usually due sometime in November-December. Once the completed application is submitted, applicant’s recommenders receive emails requesting them to upload their recommendations to a secure web portal. Applicants will not be at liberty to view the recommendations but it is upto them to ensure that the recommendations are uploaded directly by the recommender withinthe specified deadline. Like most US institutions, you can use the LSAC services to send the required documents to Harvard. The LSAC is basically an integrated service that several top US institutions subscribe to. For a small fee, you can avoid having to mail/courier documents separately to each institution. The documents can (in some cases, have to) be sent to LSAC, where they will be vetted and sent out to the institutions of your choice.

     

    What do the selectors expect from an application of a law student at Harvard?

    The application itself is fairly straight-forward, divided into easily understandable sections that require the applicant to furnish personal details and highlight their personal achievements and work experiences. Needless to say, it demands a high level of competency and is a holistic review of your achievements right from high school tolaw school and any work experience gained subsequently. Ensure that you do a thorough job on the application andtake time to think through every major activity/achievement of your formative years. One thing worth mentioning in the application is the part that requires you to list the subjects you are potentially interested in studying at Harvard. Remember that it is no marker of what you might eventually end up studying once accepted into the program. My advice would be to think strategically and build an application based on an area that you have already worked and excelled in that would support your credibility when you evince an interest in pursuing an LLM.So an ‘area of expertise’, if you will, rather than an area of interest. For instance, I was interested in both Corporate Law and Gender Studies but had no significant experience in the latter. I think (though I might be mistaken) that chances at success would have been considerably lesser if I had indicated an interest in Gender Studies while my entire application screamed corporate law. Eventually, despite having had no previous exposure in that area, once I was accepted I chose to pursue Gender Studies. They want to see a carefully crafted application. And most importantly, they want to see what drives your decision to do an LLMso its imperative that you give them a compelling reason for wanting to do the LLM in the first place.Focus every aspect of the application on one area- it is also an indicator of how focused and organized you are as a person.

    Perhaps the most important part of the application is the essay that has to be written on a contemporary matter of the applicant’s choice. I would say that this should preferably be something related to what has been indicated as your area of interest. It should be creative, concise, cohesive, relevant and structurally sound. It might be this alone that sets you apart from the other applicants to Harvard, all of whom are assuredly high-achievers.

     

    How far do you think Harvard grants financial aid to foreign students? What is the procedure for obtaining such an aid?

    Should the applicant wish to apply for financial aid, there is a separate application that has to be filled and this would require the applicant to submit not just their financial status but also their parents’ financial details. Harvard is very generous with their financial aid, which can be in the form of a loan (not interest-free), a grant or a combination of both. Their aid is need-based, not merit-based like scholarships in general.

     

    What opportunities does Harvard provide to foreign students?

    The variety in the courses on offer at Harvard is unimaginable- there are over 400 courses to choose from- which are as broad as ‘International Law’ to niche topics like ‘Law and Neuroscience’. There are fascinating courses associated with literature and the arts, which can be extremely fun to explore, such as ‘Justice in Shakespeare’s Plays’ or ‘Music and Digital Laws’. There are theory-based courses for the thinkers and practical skill-based ones for the shooters. In addition to this, the LL.M allows you to cross-register with prestigious institutions like MIT or Fletcher as well as the other Harvard schools as a substitute for law school credits, a remarkable opportunity to reach out to non-law friends. LL.Ms generally opt for courses with a more international scope, but many of them looking to work in the US do prefer US-centric courses, both options are well catered to at Harvard. We sit our classes with the JD students; there are no courses that are exclusive to LL.Ms alone. Once again, this provides us with the chance to interact with a wider circle, and learn from the best of our contemporaries. Hands on experience can be gained through a variety of co-curricular and extra-curricular activities, including societies, lunch talks, guest lectures, demonstrations, clubs and most importantly clinics, where legal practitioners in both private and public services recruit students to engage in real ongoing deals. The most common refrain I’ve heard from every LL.M is that the nine-month course is bursting with activities that are far in excess of what its possible to do in that short period so make no mistake, it’s going to be a chaotic year.

    It’s not all studies either. There’s plenty of opportunity for day trips during weekends, and longer ones during the spring break. Sports, mooting, music and every other activity you can think of happens everyday. Harvard also sponsors activities like a wine-tasting club. So trust me when I say that anyone and everyone, no matter what your interests or inclinations, will find what they love at Harvard, academics or otherwise. It might seem overwhelming at times, but at any given point there are at least six people, including previous LL.Ms and current SJDs who have been officially assigned who you can approach for advice in any matter, not to mention plenty of other people who are always eager to help. Talk to people, make friends. Use the year well and “you will never again find a place in the world where you would have to seek out a hotel” – that was the first thing we were told during the orientation.

     

    Please tell us about how the classes are conducted in Harvard, what method of teaching is followed by teachers and what other things that makes Harvard distinct from other law schools?

    Classes can be in the form of courses (group of 80-100 students), seminars (group of 20 or so) or reading groups (groups of 12). The smaller classes understandably tend to be more intensive in terms of readings and discussions and they run into more depth in terms of subject matter. The bigger classes generally test you on exams, which can be both in-class and take-home, whereas the smaller ones expect everyday participation and daily/weekly reports and papers. You are also required to write an original 25/50 page LL.M dissertation to complete the course.

    It goes without saying that the professors and teaching methods are top-notch. Readings are more theory and case law based, and there’s very less statutory law relied upon. Most professors follow the Socratic method of teaching, something you rarely encounter in Indian law schools. Very few professors opt for lecture style teaching, most only lead ‘discussions’ in class. This means having to read what could possibly be hundreds of pages before every class and being prepared to answer questions on it if called upon. In my experience this tends to generate a more productive discussion, not only because students are more involved but also because I found their views are sometimes more refreshing and insightful than the professors. You would not expect JDs who have no law background to be so sharp, but their observations are fascinating- just to see the way they have been taught to think was incredible. If there is something I most admired about Harvard, it’s the liberty and free-thinking that it allows and encourages, something you tend not to find often in Indian law schools.

     

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    How does an LL.M degree help you after you graduate from Harvard?

    To be honest, the LL.M does not do much for your CV if you are looking primarily for a job in India, particularly in the corporate sector. Most people who pursue a Harvard LL.M are already experienced and accomplished and are looking to take a break from work or attempting to break into the US legal sector/international organizations. That said, Harvard is worth it even if purely for the experience and you learn a lot more in terms of life skills than academically. For me, Harvard was an intellectual pursuit, and suffice it to say that I couldn’t be more grateful that I made the decision to apply for it; my fellow classmates were undoubtedly the brightest minds in the world and every conversation, whether within or outside the classroom adds something of valueto your knowledge.

    There’s no doubt about the fact that Harvard opens up a world of opportunities. Most people subscribe to the NY Job Fair where top-tier law firms from all over the world interview candidates for various positions, similar to placement day in Indian law schools, only on a larger scale. I know a friend who sat 12 interviews in one day (still don’t know how he managed to do that). I’m limited in my knowledge of placements because I didn’t sit for one at Harvard. But I can assure youthat from the very beginning of the admissions process the Consultations Office at Harvard takes proactive measures to ensure Harvard students are aware of every opportunity available to them. If there is one thing you can be sure of, it is that no stone will be left unturned in trying to find you a suitable job. There are two offices that help students seek out jobs and they send frequent updates on openings in both private and public positions. Studentsgot placed at the World Bank, the UN, and every other premier institution onecan dream of.

     

    What made you opt for Gender Studies at Harvard? What all did you learn out of the course?

    My primary focus was on Gender Studies, with related courses in Constitutional Law to supplement it. I can’t say there was any particular incident that drove my decision, but law school in general had piqued my interest in this area. We generally study for 23-27 credits in the entire term. I took courses on Feminist Legal Theory, Sex Equality, Family Law, Comparative Constitutional law and the Fourteenth Amendment amongst others, all with a gender specific focus. Perhaps my best experience was with Sex Equality where I had the privilege of being taught by Prof. Catherine MacKinnon, a legend in the feminist movement who is considered world over as the pioneering figure in radical feminism. However, as far as my intellectual pursuit went, I think I was most passionate about Feminist Legal Theory, taught by Prof. Janet Halley who also supervised my LL.M thesis on the Hindu Joint Family. The course was wildly liberating, her brand of feminism is starkly different from usual accounts and I found myself questioning a lot of the previous assumptions I had about it. Having never had any formal education in feminist literature previously, I was amazed at how much there was to it.

    Apart from the usual courses for credits, we also have the opportunity to sit in on classes just as an observer and that’s a real advantage. With the prior permission of the instructor, we can learn from the entire gamut of famous Harvard professors. Not to mention the multiple guest lectures that happen on an everyday basis, with famous personalities like Mitt Romney, Justices Elena Kagan and Scalia, and Justice Albie Sachs in attendance amongst others. To hear them speak and learn from them first hand was an unforgettable experience.

     

    Do you intend to do pursue higher studies at any point of time?

    At some point I also intend to study further, and do a PhD. Harvard offers you the opportunity to do an SJD which is the equivalent of a PhD but it is a five-year course as against the usual 3 years in the UK. It is however, extremely selective and niche since the candidates are chosen largely from the previous LL.M batches. I was keen to continue with the same and my supervisor was equally eager but eventually, I thought the time commitment seemed too much. Having never had any significant work experience before I thought it’s high time I gain some exposure now. I will probably apply to Oxford or Cambridge for a PhD soon.

     

    Would you like to leave some message for our readers?

    Try to do the best at whatever you do. Most people suggest that you should find and follow your passion, but throughout my life I’ve learnt to be passionate about anything I do; whether it is something I really wanted to do has been a secondary concern. Accept that you will not always get what you want, so its important to not be disillusioned by this; rather, take every opportunity you getand work at it with the same zeal you would have for your dream. I’ve always lived by this principle and I think I’ve been the happier for it.

     

  • Trisha Mitra, Legal Trainee, Shearman & Sterling, on Masters in International Dispute Settlement from GIDS, Geneva and a career in Int’l Arbitration

    Trisha Mitra, Legal Trainee, Shearman & Sterling, on Masters in International Dispute Settlement from GIDS, Geneva and a career in Int’l Arbitration

    Trisha Mitra graduated as a lawyer in 2012 from the Symbiosis Law School, Pune. During her years of law school she participated in various events. She was awarded the Advocate S.K. Jain Scholarship for being the topper of B.A.,LL.B. from her batch.

    Prior to pursuing her Masters in International Dispute Settlement from Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies, she served as an associate at the ADR teams of Bharucha and Partners and Wadia Ghandy & Co.

    Soon after the completion of her masters she had the opportunity to work with Prof. Pierre Tercier and later joined Shearman and Sterling as a legal trainee in their International Arbitration team.

    In this interview we talk about –

    • Her years through law school and her growing interest in Arbitration.
    • Significance of Post Qualification Experience (PQE) before pursuing Masters.
    • Receiving Hans Wilsdorf Scholarship offered by the Swiss-based Hans Wilsdorf Foundation.
    • Studying Masters in International Dispute Settlement from Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies.
    • Working as a trainee in the International Arbitration group at Shearman & Sterling LLP
    • Working as Legal Assistant to Prof. Pierre Tercier

     

    What inclined you towards the field of legal education?

    Looking back, I believe my involvement in extra-curricular activities during school paved the way for choosing law as a career. I have always been an avid reader and that inspired my passion for writing and oration. In school, I actively participated in essay competitions, poetry competitions, debates, Model United Nations, extempores and just about any event that involved speaking and writing.

    When it came to a stage where I had to decide what degree I would pursue after school, my instinct was to choose a profession which has its core both these passions of mine, law. I do not have any lawyers in my family or close relations. However, I was extremely fortunate to have supportive parents who encouraged me to make this choice, despite the popular belief that law is not a profession meant for girls.

     

    How instrumental was Symbiosis Law School in shaping your legal career. Did you have interest in arbitration and dispute resolution while at law school?

    My time at Symbiosis Law School set the foundation for my legal career. I have always maintained that I was lucky to be in a law school that gave me the freedom to learn, develop skills and explore opportunities, both within and outside the classroom. I firmly belief that learning cannot be restricted to lessons in classrooms and my time at Symbiosis is reflective of that. At Symbiosis, I actively took part in both national and international Moot Court competitions, numerous Model United Nations, intra-law college sports tournaments, essay competitions and parliamentary debates. Further, my internships and interactions with practitioners and academics helped me gain an essential practical understanding of the law. Being awarded the Advocate S.K. Jain Scholarship for Topper of B.A.,LL.B. was a recognition of this fact.

    My interest in Alternate Dispute Resolution, and Arbitration specifically, began as a result of curiosity in the second year of my law school. Having heard about it from a friend, I decided to research further on it and found the concept extremely interesting and a practicable means of dispute resolution. The benefits of Alternate Dispute Resolution, i.e. speed, cost-effectiveness and expertise, appealed to my sense of how the system should be and I decided to gain as much experience and knowledge as I could in it. Therefore, I pursued a Diploma in Arbitration, Conciliation and Alternate Dispute Resolution offered by Symbiosis. Also, most of my internships after that were directed towards alternate dispute resolution. I interned with the arbitration and dispute resolution teams at Advani & Co., Kachwaha & Partners, Bharucha & Partners and this cemented my interest for arbitration.

     

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    Please tell us about your work profile at WG and Bharucha.

    (Trisha worked in the Dispute Resolution team of Bharucha and Partners and Wadia Ghandy & Co. before she decided to pursue Masters in International Dispute Settlement.)

    Working as an Associate at both Bharucha and Partners and Wadia Ghandy & Co. was an important stepping stone in my professional career. I was fortunate to have guidance and mentorship from the partners at both firms and a collegial set of colleagues, who made the transition from a student to a working professional smooth. At both firms, I was involved in high-stake commercial litigation cases and international and domestic arbitrations.

     

    According to you, is it better to pursue higher education right after graduation or after gaining some Post Qualification Experience?

    It depends on a lot of factors. Pursuing a Master or higher degree is usually a step towards a professional goal that a person envisages for himself. Thus, a decision to pursue it is best taken when the person is reasonably certain of his professional goals or at least what his/her next steps after the Masters will be.

    Many of the people who pursue an LL.M. already have work experience before taking up the course. Gaining prior work experience in the field of law for the person who wishes to pursue higher studies is advisable – that way the person can be sure that he/ she wants to continue working/studying in that field of law. Having said that, there are also several people who are sure of their areas of concentration and take up higher studies right after graduation, and have done well for themselves.

     

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    Apart from Graduate Institute, which other universities offer good arbitration courses? What made you choose MIDS over others?

    The interest among Universities to have a specialised programme dedicated to Arbitration is relative now but fast picking up. Most Universities offer one or two courses on Arbitration, which the student can combine with other courses during their LL.M. Some notable Universities that offer good arbitration courses are Columbia Law School, Queen Mary University of Law, Georgetown Law School, Stockholm University and recently Miami School of Law.

    The Masters in International Dispute Settlement (MIDS) offered jointly by the Graduate Institute and University of Geneva is quite unique in that sense. The entire programme is geared towards giving its student an exposure to various dispute resolution mechanisms, with a particular focus on International Arbitration. At the MIDS, courses are offered on both Public and Private International Law, and more specifically on WTO, ICJ, UNCLOS, Investment Arbitration, International Commercial Arbitration and Sports Arbitration. As regards International Arbitration, MIDS has specific courses on international arbitration in specific regions like United States, European Union, China, Latin America etc and also intensive courses on the different facets of arbitration like the Arbitration Agreement, New York Convention, Definition of Investment in Investment Arbitration etc. These courses are taught by well-known practitioners and academicians in those fields. For example, Professor Gabrielle Kaufmann-Kohler and Zachary Douglas took courses on commercial and investment arbitration, Professor Albert van den Berg took a course on New York Convention, Professor Jan Paulsson took a course on Investment Arbitration and Professor William Park on Arbitration in the United States. It truly was learning from the best!

    The well-designed programme as well as the location in Geneva, which is home to numerous international organizations, made the choice to take up the MIDS an appropriate one.

     

    Having been the recipient of the Hans Wilsdorf Scholarship and Ratan Tata Travel Grant, tell us more about scholarships for Indians at the MIDS?

    The Hans Wilsdorf Scholarship is an incredible opportunity offered by the Swiss-based Hans Wilsdorf Foundation to allow students pursue graduate courses at the Graduate Institute. It is a full scholarship and was an essential factor in my being able to pursue the MIDS. Similarly, the Ratan Tata Travel Grant is offered by the Sir Ratan Tata Trust to students travelling abroad for post-graduate or doctoral studies.

    The MIDS administration encourages applicants from all over the world, and every year a considerable percentage of the intake is from India. Professors have often chided that there is an “Indian mafia” at the MIDS! The Hans Wilsdorf Foundation offers quite a few scholarships to students admitted into the MIDS – in my year at the MIDS, an estimated 8-10 students had the Hans Wilsdorf Scholarship.

    Apart from this, students from India also have the option to apply to other scholarships, which are not necessarily MIDS-centric. For example, scholarships are offered by the Sir Ratan Tata Foundation, Aga Khan Foundation, Inlaks etc.

     

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    Tell us in detail about the academic programme at the MIDS. What differences did you find in the education systems of India and Geneva?

    To answer the last question first, the education systems in India and Geneva, and abroad generally, differ greatly.

    Pursuing an LL.M. abroad is an act of discipline and perseverance. For starters, the readings for each class were usually enormous, often going upto 500 pages for a single class of 5-6 hours. We were told that for one hour spent in class, there would be readings for atleast two-three hours. This is significantly different from the approach in Indian law schools. The classroom teaching style differs in that there is more learning through discussions and debates. The professors pay a lot of attention to the viewpoints of the students and give inputs from their experiences or jurisprudence to add to the discussion. To gain from this level of exchange, it was necessary to be thorough with the prescribed readings.

    MIDS, like other foreign LL.M.s, provides mentoring and assistance to its students to help them adjust and settle into the system. We had a set of amazing tutors who were always at hand to answer our queries and provide guidance whenever needed. The administration was extremely friendly and helpful and helped us with everything from visa to permit to choice of courses to career counselling.

     

    Do you think knowledge of European languages such as French or Spanish helps in areas related to Private or Public International law?

    Most definitely. In International Arbitration, a lot of the case-load originates from Latin America, Russia or Europe. Plus, some offices of even international firms have a huge French or Spanish population and prefer persons who speak those languages. Thus, fluency in one or more European languages is a huge advantage.

     

    After the MIDS, you joined WilmerHale in London as a legal intern in their International Arbitration team.  Tell our readers about the experience.

    Anyone who has ever studied or practiced arbitration knows Gary Born. The fact that he leads the International Arbitration practice at WilmerHale made the choice of firm easy for me.

    WilmerHale has a straightforward application process for its internship programme. Once the application makes it past the first round, there is an interview with the Internship Committee. Successful candidates are then invited to intern with them for three months.

    WilmerHale has a wide portfolio of International Arbitration and international law cases, including human rights cases. At any point of time, they are handling arbitrations seated around the world and are also pro bono representing victims of human right violations. The team at WilmerHale is young, energetic and welcoming. I was fortunate enough to assist with both their arbitrations and a human rights case in the African Court on Human and Peoples’ Rights.

     

    You have recently joined as a Trainee in the International Arbitration group at Shearman & Sterling LLP– Tell us about your experience.

    Shearman & Sterling is a well-renown practice in International Arbitration and is touted to have one of the best portfolios of cases, both in international commercial arbitration and investment arbitration. Their International Arbitration practice in Paris office is headed by Emmanuel Gaillard, a stalwart in the field.

    As a result, my experience so far has been extremely interesting and gratifying. I have been working on energy arbitrations and investment arbitrations and enjoying every bit of it. Of course, it requires a lot of hard work and long hours, but it is all completely worth it.

    The application process at Shearman & Sterling is quite comprehensive – once the application is selected, there are 2 rounds of interviews – the first one is usually taken by Associates along with a Counsel, and the second one is taken by a Partner.

     

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    You also served as Legal Assistant to Professor Pierre Tercier. Do you think it is better to work with an arbitrator rather than an ADR firm? Tell us your experience.

    I consider myself extremely lucky to have had the opportunity to work with Professor Pierre Tercier. Professor Tercier is considered one of the top arbitrators in the world and consequently, sits as arbitrator in some of the most interesting investment arbitrations and international commercial arbitrations.

    Working with an arbitrator is a different experience than working with a law firm. As Legal Assistant to Professor Tercier, I gained valuable insight into the functioning of an arbitral tribunal – a hitherto unknown process to me. As a counsel, it is one’s duty to assist the tribunal navigate the case and come to a decision. Watching a tribunal work is like peeking behind the curtains and learning how best to do this.

    I do not have a preference of working with an arbitrator over a counsel practice, or vice versa. Both involve equally interesting and exciting work and maybe at this stage of my career, I look forward to gaining more experience in both.

     

    Lastly, what would be your parting message for our readers?

    If you have a passion and do not mind facing a few challenges, you can get what you want. Also, do not hesitate to reach out to people you will be surprised how often they go out of their way to help you.

  • Manojna Yeluri, Founder, Artistik License, on IPR awareness and LL.M in Media and IPR from UCLA

    Manojna Yeluri, Founder, Artistik License, on IPR awareness and LL.M in Media and IPR from UCLA

    Manojna Yeluri is a graduate of the 2010 batch of National Academy of Legal Studies and Research University (NALSAR). She started working at the Bangalore office of Amarchand & Mangaldas & Suresh A Shroff& Co. (AMSS), right after graduating. She soon left her job to pursue her Masters in Entertainment, Media and Intellectual Property Law at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA), in the year 2011.

    Since returning, she has founded Artistik License, an organisation specialising in the rights of artists, entrepreneurs and other creative professionals. She is also a Business Development Consultant at Vahura, a legal recruitment firm, and this year, she held the post of Content Curator and Co-ordinator at Construkt Festival 2015.

    In this interview, Manojna opens up about:

    • What made her choose to pursue Entertainment and Media Law, despite having a job at the largest law firm, AMSS;
    • The application process to UCLA, as well as the importance of a Statement of Purpose (SoP);
    • Her work experience at Artistik License, Vahura and ConstruktFestival 2015.

     

    Whatmade you choose Law as your profession? Is there anyone else in your family who works in the legal field?

    To be fair, pursuing a career in law was not my first choice. Growing up, I was led to believe that I could pursue a career in any field so long as I worked hard at it and made a good living from it. By the time I decided to give law school a shot, I had already thought of becoming a biologist (a thought I abandoned after my 10th standard experience with Chemistry and Physics) and later, I sincerely wanted to pursue a career in Sociology and Psychology. Things didn’t quite work out the way I planned, which just goes to show you that you can’t always foresee and plan for everything. Following my 12th standard Board Exams, I ended up moving to Bangalore because of my father’s job, and during a very very brief stint at Mount Carmel College, decided that perhaps law school would provide me the kind of opportunities I wanted, particularly in the realm of Humanities. My father and grandfather (my dad’s father) are both law graduates who did not practice, but ended up using their legal knowledge in their careers as Government officials. My other grandfather (my mum’s dad) is a retired Police officer, who has always had a strong love for criminal law. I do have family in the legal profession – specifically my cousins and my father’s uncle (an astute man and a retired Judge),who have all made, and are continuing to make an impact in the legal world through their own efforts and contributions.

    For all practical purposes though, I really am a first generation lawyer in my tiny nuclear family.

     

    What was life likeas a law student at NALSAR? How did your five years in the university influence your personal growth?

    My years at NALSAR are definitely some of the most eventful and insightful, and I pretty much carry memories and lessons from my time at law school, into everything I do. When I was studying at NALSAR, things were a bit different  – we were a lot more interested in actually meeting one another and since we were so far away from thecity (nearly 35 kms away) and living on a student budget, I think many of us found ourselves more deeply involved in campus life than we expected to be. For me, it was a wonderful and scary time, since it was the first time I was staying in a hostel, but any hesitations I had were eradicated thanks to the friendships Imade – some of which have evolved into strong relationships that I turn to in times of joy and crisis.

    One of the most important lessons I learnt in NALSAR is that life is what you make of it. As individuals, many of us have access to several opportunities, however,there are only a few who choose to truly make the most of them. Looking back, there are a few things Iwish I had done, and there were many batchmates, seniors and juniors who displayed enthusiasm, initiative and creativity that I never thought was possible – so I have to say that law school can be quite an inspiring place so long as you know where and who to look to.

    As an institution, NALSAR offers its students a wide array of opportunities, but then again, as I mentioned earlier, it’s upto you to make the most of it. Besides my time on campus, I also ended up learning a great deal about myself thanks to a Student Exchange Programme I took part in just as I entered my third year of law school. I had a blast at Griffith University, Brisbane and it was really a professor there and his courses that sowed the seeds for my fascination with entertainment law.

     

    Did you take part in moot court competitions? How important do you think are such competitions for getting acceptance for Masters in the USA?

    I was not a mooter. I’ve admired mooting, but only from a distance. In my experience, mooting requires a skill set and an emotional endurance that I’m not sure I had, or was really interested in developing. When I was in law school, I remember hearing that conferences and publications were far more important than Moot court competitions when it came to applying for a Masters, however as we all know, that’s not always true. Moot court competitions help develop certain qualities that are very important to a career in law, however, as is the case with everything, I’m not entirely sure that there’s a fixed formula that states that Moot courts or conferences might considerably increase one’s chances of admission into a Masters program anywhere – I think what matters is ensuring that one’s Statement of Purpose is tight, sincere and clear.

     

    At a time when most people primarily focus either on Litigation or on Corporate Law, what turned you to Entertainment, Media and Intellectual Property Law?

    It’s funny that I embraced my fascination for Entertainment law and IPR only after I left law school, since I might have been able to do more while I was at NALSAR. I did bite the bullet and make the initial foray into the world of corporate law for a very brief period of time. Isat for recruitment and was picked up by AMSS (Bangalore) and believe me when I say that at the time, Iwas overjoyed and excited because I thought “Hey! My life is set now”. Shortly after joining AMSS, I found myself increasingly reading up on Entertainment law and IPR and when finally my curiosity couldn’t take it anymore, I chose to leave to pursue a Masters in either Entertainment or Media law. It wasn’t a very easy decision though – working in corporate law brings with it, its set of privileges, like a solid income and respect, and foregoing that, especially when you’re a fresher in the job market, seems a tad bit risky. However, I did receive a great deal of support from my folks, particularly my mom, who really helped me during such a difficult transition.

     

    Were your internships mostly related to Media/IPR law? Which was the most enriching internship experience for you?

    Most of my internships were not consciously oriented towards Media/IPR law because all through law school, I had convinced myself that I was probably going to become a corporate lawyer. I had interned in almost every holiday break and because I always wanted to keep my options open and balanced, I ensured I did one corporate internship followed by one NGO internship. My most memorable corporate law internships were at JSA, Bombay and Luthra&Luthra, Bombay because of the kind of experiences and learning that happened. With respect to non-corporate internships, my internship at Majlis, Bombay (run by Flavia Agnes) and Loksatta, Hyderabad were instrumental in teaching me a lot about the interaction between law and content-creation. My serious Entertainment/IPR law internship only happened years later during my time at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA), at an independent film studio (NuMedia), run by a lawyer. Nestled in the middle of Hollywood, it was a pretty cool way to learn about entertainment lawyers and the industry.

     

    How did you choose to pursue your masters at University of California, Los Angeles?

    The University of California, Los Angeles or UCLA is considered the best school in the world for the Entertainment, Media and IPR law programme. To be honest, that’s one of the major reasons I wanted to pursue a masters there. I had applied to two other schools that year – SOAS and LSE, and I was fortunate enough to have gotten accepted into both but my heart was set on UCLA because of how well structured its Entertainment law program and department was.

    I think that it’s always important to choose to pursue a Masters or any degree at an institution that has developed a great reputation and infrastructure to teach the subject that one wants to pursue a higher education/career in. A lot of people wondered why I had chosen UCLA, and the answer is actually very obvious – it’s the best place in the world to study Entertainment law. UCLA had an entertainment law department that had some wonderful faculty who brought years of experience from Hollywood and other international entertainment industries, into the classroom. Imagine being able to study about being a lawyer with a record label from someone who actually worked with Capitol Records and works with Warner Brothers – that’s exactly what UCLA offered me, and in my opinion, it’s that kind of specialized focus and infrastructure that actually helps students gain a more informed and insightful understanding of the area of study they are focussing on.

     

    How did you go about your application to UCLA? What are the prerequisites to applying to a university in the USA?

    I would love to say moots, conferences, publications, solid recommendation letters, extra-curriculars during law school, internships – the works, but I think at the end of the day what matters the most is clarity. One needs to be very clear about why one wants to pursue higher education at a university in the USA and that clarity needs to translate itself into a well structured, well written and sincere Statement of Purpose. I’ve always been a bit of a nerd and so pursuing a Masters was always something I wanted to do, and perhaps accordingly, I ensured that I had a fair balance (not a lot – emphasis on the word fair) of conferences and internships, however even the greatest recommendation letter in the world cannot substitute for a good Statement of Purpose. I definitely took time out to focus and re-write my SoP which I think also had a huge role to play in securing some financial assistance for my education. It’s also good to understand why you want to study further – a few people I know have referred to their LLM year as a holiday year- I have no idea what they are talking about. Studying abroad is a memorable but potentially difficult experience where you have to get used to studying a whole new jurisdiction while ensuring that you cook edible meals and live on a shoe-string budget.  However, coming back to the prerequisites of applying to a US university, it’s always good to focus on a good SoP, good and relevant recommendation letters and research.

     

    After having completed your masters in the USA, what made you come back to India, especially since Entertainment, Media and IPR Law is a more established arena there?

    I’ve always been an art-lover at heart and I’ve been fortunate enough to know and meet some wonderful artists living and working in India. While I love to travel and experience new cultures, a part of me always has to come back to India so in a way, I’m a bit of a boomerang. A career in Entertainment law in the US, particularly LA would have definitely been a lot more sensible and exciting in some ways, however there were many practical and cultural factors that influenced my decision to head back. For starters, opportunities in theUS legal market were scarce and I felt that the efforts to pursue a career there far outweighed the benefits. India also offered so many opportunities with its own big entertainment industry, my relationships with artists and creatives back home and most of all, thechallenge of doing something a little different in your own backyard.

     

    How has your Masters from UCLA affected your career in the long run? Do you think a person without a similar Masters degree from a foreign university would face significantly lower chances of success in the Indian market?

    Contrary to popular belief, there are quite a few Entertainment and Media lawyers in India and we are not an endangered species at all. There’s an age old debate about whether higher education outweighs experience or vice versa, and the truth is the best chance one has is by achieving a balance of the two. My LLM at UCLA has had a profound impact on the work I do because of many things I learnt and experienced during my time in LA. Whether it’s having achieved a deeper appreciation for artist rights, a more wholesome understanding of copyright law and licensing, or just a greater awareness of all thedifferent kinds of law that Entertainment law encompasses (IPR, Labour law, Contracts, OSH, Tax), my masters from UCLA has definitely shaped the way I perceive issues facing my clients and theindustry I work with. Having said that, I can’t say for sure if a foreign degree would necessarily increase the chances of success in the Indian market, but it might provide one with much needed perspective.

     

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    After returning to India, you founded Artistik License. Please tell us more about it. How was the experience of building up your own start-up?

    I’m still building it up, and I think it’s going to be a lifelong project of mine. After returning to India, I chose to work with CLPR – a research think tank based out of Bangalore, in order to gain more experience as a research associate. However, there came a point where I felt I ought to be doing more work in Entertainment law, and while Ilooked out for opportunities in Entertainment law firms and companies, nothing came close to what I really wanted to do – work with content creators, artists and creative entrepreneurs directly. So, after a lot of searching I decided that it was time to take a leap of faith, and start working independently. Artistik License started off as a blog or a repository of legalese for artists working in India – something which it still serves as today, but after some hard work and lessons, has evolved into a consultancy where I advise artists and creative startups on their rights, as well as provide them with specialized legal services. What really makes Artistik License different, is its focus on independent artists and startups. As an organization, it focuses on two tracks – enabling the independent artist and entrepreneur’s business by way of specialized legal advice as well as by empowering artists, and creative entrepreneurs through rights awareness workshops, discussions and research work.

    Although I was really frightened at first, I think entrepreneurship was something that I was designed for. I had a great support system, comprising of my folks and my friends, who shared my fears and joys, and were a great sounding board for all my ideas. Building your own startup from scratch can be scary but rewarding,so long as you don’t bite off more than you can chew. Considering Artistik License’s niche focus, there was, and might always be, a certain amount of risk involved in what I do, however I can’t think of anything else I would rather be doing. The past two years have seen Artistik License’s clientele grow, and I’ve been invited to present my work at various domestic and international music markets, conferences and events.

     

    Are artists generally aware of their rights? How can such awareness be increased?

    Some are, and some aren’t; even then, the awareness can be incomplete. There are many factors that contribute to this situation of imperfect knowledge, including access to information and the communication of important information. It’s critical to ensure that artists are made aware of the need to understand why rights awareness is important, but then it’s just as important as law people, to enable that awareness in a manner that is chilled out, and not steeped in legal jargon. There are many ways in which awareness can be increased, and I work closely with many non-law organizations who want more artist rights empowerment. Workshops, discussion groups and online articles are a great way to get this valuable information across. Besides the Artistik License blog, I also write frequently for Campus Diaries (for the younger artists and entrepreneurs) and Indiearth (a platform dedicated indie artists in the Indian ocean region), on topics that might be of potential interest to artists and entrepreneurs alike.

     

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    Artistik License also organises workshops for disseminating knowledge on the subject. Would you consider engaging young law students in these workshops to help them learn along with the artists?

    Of course! I can see creativity and entrepreneurship being an integral part of the law school experience, and it’s always a pleasure to engage and talk to law students from anywhere. I’ve been fortunate enough to have a wonderful time with some very intelligent, very quirky young law students from Christ College, Bangalore and NALSAR, who have been wonderful and so helpful by interning with Artistik License.

     

    In between all this you have also been working at Vahura. When and how did you join Vahura? Please tell us about your work profile there.

    My relationship with Vahura is both a new and old one. A few years ago, I worked with Rainmaker as a features editor, and a few months ago, I had the opportunity to start working with Vahura and its amazing team. At Vahura, I work with the Business Development and Clients Solution vertical, where I especially focus on business in the South Indian region. I enjoy the unique position of being able to interact with some of the smartest legal professionals and some of the best businesses and law firms in thecountry. A great deal of what I do involves networking and making connections – something I can’t get enough of. As an organization set out to help lawyers do good work, Vahura offers many services besides legal, tax, compliance and governance searches. It also provides strong counsel and research through its mentorship and consulting verticals. While we all help each other out at Vahura, another area that I work closely with is Vahura’s Engage vertical, which provides the legal community opportunities to interact with each other through various professional and community events.

     

    What insights you would like to share with our readers from your experience in legal recruitments at Vahura?

    My insights into legal recruitment are quite limited at this time, because a great deal of what I do concerns the overall legal market and business. There are others at Vahurawho have a more nuanced understanding of legal search business, and I would be more than happy to put any of your readers in touch with them. I can say this much – these are some exciting times for the law graduate, since I think we’re smack in the middle of an era where there really is something for everyone. So whether you want to be a corporate lawyer, a litigator, a legal academic or a legal entrepreneur, the industry is currently offering a lot of opportunities to pursue any career you wish, and if it’s some counsel and direction you’re looking for, we at Vahura are happy to help. This is probably my biggest learning from Vahura so far –an understanding that we’re far more focussed on helping legal professionals discover their full potential rather than simply place them in suitable positions.

     

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    You held the post of Content Curator and Co-ordinator at Construkt Festival 2015. How may startup festivals such as this prove to be important for a law student?

    I was thrilled for the opportunity to work with Construkt 2015 and must express my gratitude to the festival’s founder, ShashiKiran, who is nothing short of an entrepreneurial powerhouse. Working with him and the Construkt team so closely taught me a great deal about entrepreneurship and the ways in which the right kind of platforms and infrastructure can truly help nurture a great innovation eco-system. I definitely think that more law students need to be open about attending such festivals where entrepreneurship is not only encouraged, but celebrated. For instance, Construkt 2014 and 2015 both celebrated legal entrepreneurship and innovation, by hosting talks by lawyers working in the field of law and technology, entertainment law and startup law. As the content curator for this year’s edition, I had a great time sifting through some amazing content by speakers, but it would be super if we could get more inputs and entries from the legal community as well.

     

    How do you manage time between your two roles? Are you able to find a work-life balance?

    A few days ago I heardsomeone say that we’ve almost taken it for granted that we’re supposed to struggle, hate our bosses and hate work. The truth is, that if we’re doing something we like,then we don’t even think about things like over-time, and being over-worked. At this point in my life, I am extremely grateful for the opportunity to be more than one person, and to do more than one thing. I’m surrounded by a number of inspiring people from the legal and creative communities (not that the two need to be exclusive), and I find a great deal of joy in what I do. Sure, it’s overwhelming at times and there are days when I just want to throw things at people, but I think the key is to achieve balance in whatever one does, and to remember that we are the best judges of our own situations. I also find that taking care of one’s body and mind goes a long way in ensuring that one can get more out of life. I’m not the fittest fiddle in the world, but over the past year, I’ve noticed that I consciously try to eat healthy, lead an active life and pursue my other interests including creative writing, glass painting, accompanying my musician friends to their shows, and understanding how to lead a more cruelty-free life. I’m a bit of a hippie at heart.

     

    What is the one advice you would like to give our readers?

    There is no formula to success. Years of conditioning in law school teaches us to assume that we need to fit into one mould or the other, but the truth is there really are no restrictions to the kind of opportunities one can tap into these days. It’s important to be brave and to seek good counsel, and to remember that it’s okay if you don’t fit into the traditional structures and expectations created by your family or the legal fraternity. It’s important to be honest in the work that one does, and to push aside the drama, no matter how tempting it is to overanalyse it. You can be a SuperLawyer just by being yourself, and working hard.

  • Sudhir Reddy, Founder, Reddy & Reddy Advocates & Legal Consultants, on LL.M from Cardiff and Mediation course from Oxford

    Sudhir Reddy, Founder, Reddy & Reddy Advocates & Legal Consultants, on LL.M from Cardiff and Mediation course from Oxford

    Sudhir Reddy graduated in LL.B from DES Law College, Pune University in 2009, after which he pursued his Masters from Cardiff University, United Kingdom. After completing his degree in Masters he worked in a law firm called Thodur Law Associates as an Associate Advocate. He also pursued a course of Civil/Commercial Mediation from Oxford and became an Accredited Mediator in 2014. At present, he operates his own law firm which has a practice of both litigation and corporate work.

    In this interview we talk about –

    • Choosing International Commercial Law as his specialization for LL.M
    • Pursuing a course of Civil/Commercial Mediation from Oxford
    • Becoming an Accredited Mediator by 2014
    • Starting his own law firm “Reddy & Reddy Advocates and Legal Consultants”

     

    Given that most of our readers belong to legal fraternity, how would you introduce yourself to them?

    To start with I am a practising advocate mainly practising in the Pune courts and the Mumbai high court. I completed my LLB from Pune University and my LLM from Cardiff University, United Kingdom. I am also a certified civil and commercial mediator .I run my own law firm in Pune which deals with litigation as well as corporate work. However before starting the law firm I did work under senior attorneys at different High Courts so that I could earn some practical experience and confidence to start my own firm. My experience in Law is not just confined to the Domestic laws but I have also gained experience in mediation and negotiations in United Kingdom after completion of International civil and commercial Mediation course from Oxford.

     

    Having done B.Com, what motivated you to choose law as a career? Or did it just happen?

    To tell you guys the truth, my foremost aim was to become a lawyer but being from a business class family I had to learn certain aspects of commerce mainly accounts so that I would be able to put in my efforts in the working of my father’s established business. Also having knowledge in commerce helped me cater to my corporate clients in taking managerial decisions.

     

    As a law graduate of Pune University, have you faced any comparison with NLUs? What would you say to the future graduates of Pune University regarding this?

    I personally feel that these are all pre conceived notions that only the NLUS can provide the needed exposure to its students. Ultimately the laws are the same it’s up to the student how he/she decides on to shape up his/her life. I personally took the needed effort to attend various seminars and small conferences pertaining to law, held during my period at the law school. It’s the knowledge you imbibe that matters which should be practical as well as theoretical knowledge.

     

    What were your areas of interest during your graduation? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?

    As a law student I never wanted to confine myself to any particular area of law. My main aim was to absorb and learn everything which was taught to me during my classes and my internships .But I had always enjoyed negotiating and mediating any disputes and I realised I was good at it because I was always successful in solving a dispute. This made me realise that I had an inclination towards solving disputes in a peaceful and non-stressful manner. I did have keen interest in alternate dispute resolution systems and outside court settlement procedures and so I become a mediator.

     

    What are your thoughts on activities like mooting, debating and publications in journals? What skills do law students acquire by engaging themselves in such activities?

    I have always been of an opinion that in an all-round development of a student activities like mooting, debating play a crucial role. This is where the student develops its confidence and learns legal interpretation .Also these activities will help students in inculcating good research skills. The students also realise what exact field they should be taking up after college after doing these activities.

     

    Right after graduating, you went for LLM. Why did you decide to go for higher studies?

    Going for LLM right after graduation was my game plan since the time I joined my LLB course .My main intention for pursing LLM was to well equip myself with the international legal scenario.UK being a common law country I was sure that this experience will benefit me in expanding the horizons of my legal knowledge internationally .

     

    How did you choose Cardiff University over others? How did you go about choosing a university?

    The main reason to choose Cardiff University was that it is one of the royal charter universities and also one of the well ranked universities in UK. Along with that it had a beautiful campus and an apt course that attracted me to choose this university over others.

     

    Why did you choose International Commercial Law as your specialization for LL.M? What motivated you to pursue your LL.M in International Commercial Law?

    My course comprised of variety of subjects like international banking, competition laws, international corporate governance and World Trade organisation, which were entirely different than the regular curriculum taught to law pursuants in India. Also there was a wide range optional modules we could opt for hence I chose to peruse International Commercial Law.

     

    What advice would you give to people who are trying to decide which area of law to specialise in?

    Do your internships in all the fields. Participate in moots, debate, paper presentations and client counselling competitions. All this will help you understand your weak points and make you sure on what areas of law you like and what kind of practise you are good at.

     

    After completing your Masters, you worked at Thodur Law Associates for an year as an Associate Advocate. How did you secure your appointment? Did you apply or got an offer from the law firm?

    After my LLM I wanted to gain practical experience for getting myself acquainted with the procedural part of a legal proceedings, Thodur Law Associates is a law firm based in Mumbai practising at High Court hence there were larger chances of me getting a vast experience.

    I had gone to Mumbai after I was back from United Kingdom to search for prospective law firms where I could actually gain practical experience. Coincidentally I met the senior partner of the firm, I narrated to him my reason for applying in the said firm, he was very impressed seeing my urge to learn and I was told to join right from the next day at their firm.

     

    How did you overcome your initial jitters in a courtroom full of experienced lawyers and judges? Tell us about the highs and lows.

    I am a supercharged guy since childhood, talking to unknown people, making new friends or being at a new place with new surrounding was never a challenge to me. But I still remember the first time I appeared in front of a judge was at the Bombay High Court. As soon as I stood up to mention the said matter I went blank and stood right in the same position for good one minute without a single word spoken. The judge sort of understood that I have frozen so he sort of covered up for me and told me to come next day.

    And since then till now I have changed tremendously .Now I wait eagerly to appear at the court and to prove my point.

     

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    Thereafter, you have started your own law firm Reddy & Reddy Advocates and Legal Consultants and currently you are the Managing Partner of the firm. What prompted you to make this choice and start your own law firm?

    It’s my father’s confidence in me which gave me the courage to start my own law firm. He has been the backbone of the firm since the day of the inception of Reddy & Reddy, Advocates and Legal Consultants. He has supported me when I needed encouragement and confidence the most. To be frank there were many to discourage but few to encourage. But somehow the voice inside told me to go ahead and prove it that I can do it.

     

    Please tell us a bit about “Reddy & Reddy Advocates and Legal Consultants”. What is a day at work like? Is it easy to have a work-life balance?

    My day at work starts with my morning prayer and then a quick workout. I am in the office quite early because I need to take quick updates about the distribution of the work to the associates for the day. I then go ahead and start with all my client meeting and if I have an argument for the day I take a quick look at the case and have fun leading the argument at the court. There are times when I spend the whole day in the negotiation for my corporate clients but having a remarkable team keeps me relived that my office functioning at its peak. I end my day at office by taking updates from all my associates along with a nice cup of coffee.

     

    Tell us about the practice areas of Reddy and Reddy Advocates and Legal Consultants.

    Reddy and Reddy Advocates and Legal is  Based in Pune, it offers a full range of legal services on all aspects of the Indian law to a diversified client base, including well-known multi-national corporations functioning in India. In addition to serving our clients directly, our lawyers serve as experts of Indian law in both transactional and litigation matters. In particular, the firm has a strong practice group that specializes in mediation and negotiation, credit management, real estate, property & land laws. We are dedicated to our clients’ needs and we strive to achieve total satisfaction for our clients by legal excellence.

     

    Our clients include major Banks, Non-Banking Finance Companies, Real Estate, Multinationals, Industrial Houses, and Software Companies.

    The firm’s lawyers have an average experience of over 5 years in handling complex legal issues touching on almost all aspects of Indian law. We combine a personal approach with high professional standards and aim at providing comprehensive legal services to our individual, corporate, financial and commercial clients.

     

    In the meantime, you have pursued a course of Civil/Commercial Mediation from Oxford and became an Accredited Mediator in 2014. What prompted you to pursue this course and became a certified Mediator?

    Mediation is the next revolution in the legal field. Since our country is evolving in a very fast pace the people of our country want every issue to be resolved as fast as possible. Being a lawyer I have practically seen how burdened the court is with numerous cases. Before going for the course few of my clients had asked me if I knew any commercial mediator and that is when I decided why not me. I looked for few courses and I found the one in Oxford is what suits my requirements perfectly.

    Meditation is already a very upcoming requirement for the multinational companies because they have clients all over the world and solving disputes outside the court is more convenient for them. Mediation is immensely into existence in the European and the western legal system. So it’s always better to do a course on mediation and negotiations it will surely help them in the future.

     

    You have a couple of orders to your credit. Do they change one’s recognition?

    (Sudhir has orders to his credit in criminal litigation, consumer disputes, land disputes, family disputes and outside court settlements in labour and industrial disputes)

    It just makes me want to work even harder because I want to keep my clients always satisfied. My only aim is that when the client agrees to take services from us he/she attains the best of the services which my firm can provide.

    Regarding once recognition, yes it does change the recognition as it shows experience a person has and the dedications the person has put in to get the desired results.

     

    What were the difficulties you faced in the early days of your practice? How difficult would you say it is to build a reputable practice?

    Early days were relaxed and peaceful. I did have work from the day I started my own office but the stress of uncertainty was always there. Although it will be wrong to say that the uncertainty is not present anymore because our firm is still in its growing stage.

    I also want to say that it is quite difficult to build a reputation and then harder to maintain it, one really needs to have lot of patience in order to raise your own organisation from one level to another.  You need to have a good team with you to run the show and thankfully at this point of time I have an awesome team who helps me, guides me and back me up everywhere.

     

    Do you take interns? What do you look for in a prospective applicant?

    Yes, we do take interns. When we get an application for internship we usually don’t see the scores and credentials of the student because we understand different universities have different ways of marking. We usually see the cover letter and the practical experience the applicant has provided in the application and most importantly the urge of the applicant to work and learn.

     

    What would be your message to law students who dream of having their own law firm one day?

    Never give up. Enjoy your failure because this is the way you are learning and this is how you grow as a person. According to me there are 4 stages involved if u want to start your own firm. At the first stage you have no work no money ,second stage only work no money at the third stage good work good money and finally the fourth stage less work only money.

    Not necessarily it has to go the same way but that’s what it is like in the holistic picture. Be confident and kick off.

     

  • Aarthi Sivanandh, Partner, J. Sagar Associates, on building a corporate law practice, merging Vichar Parters and LL.M from Tulane

    Aarthi Sivanandh, Partner, J. Sagar Associates, on building a corporate law practice, merging Vichar Parters and LL.M from Tulane

    Aarthi Sivanandh graduated in commerce from Stella Maris College in 1997 before deciding to pursue law from Tamil Nadu Doctor Ambedkar Law University. Thereafter, she attended Tulane University (US) on a scholarship and graduated the masters course in corporate law with distinction. Soon after she worked in California briefly as a foreign legal consultant before returning to India in 2004. On her return to India she was part of the founding partner team for Universal Legal. In 2010, she co-founded ‘Vichar Partners’ which merged into J.Sagar Associates in April 2014.

    In this interview she tells us about:

    • Degree in Law after commerce and subsequent international exposure
    • Building a corporate law practice in Chennai
    • Experiences in founding a law firm and its merger with Jyoti Sagar Associates
    • Role of a partner at one of the largest firms
    • Work life balance and necessary skills of a young lawyer

     

    You are a B.Com (Hons.) graduate from Stella Maris College. How did you decide to join Tamil Nadu Doctor Ambedkar Law University?

    I never envisioned myself as a lawyer. In my final year of undergrad college at Stella Maris, I had won an advertising competition that awarded me an internship offer at HTA. My mother promptly found me a friend of hers who was a company secretary who persuaded me to join the course lest I am lured by what they believed as the glamorous world of advertising. A short introduction to the intermediate course at the institute and I was captivated by law, thus the road to join the University in Chennai to pursue a degree in law.

     

    Soon after completing LL.B., you went to pursue Masters from Tulane University Law School. Why did you decide to go for higher studies?

    I was interested in corporate law but there were no law firms in Chennai in the late nineties, the city was flooded with court counsels. Litigation was the only thriving practice area and the city was well known for its stellar attorneys’ bar. I decided to visit Bangalore and Mumbai for an internship and found the firms there unwilling to entertain me except for one. It was a struggle to gain exposure to transactional or corporate practice. It was the time after an undergraduate degree when I was keen to discover the world, find new experiences. I had also won two scholarships to study abroad, so I decided to put them to use and get a Masters in Law degree.

     

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    Tell us about your LL.M year at Tulane. How did this influence your career?

    My time at Tulane was rewarding and fun filled, both intellectually and personally. New Orleans is the third most interesting city in the US after New York and San Francisco; this drew me to choose the foreign lawyers LL.M program at Tulane. My class had almost 130 people from more than 25 countries. The historic city that had fought Spanish and French wars, its streetcar and Audubon park still alive from the 1840’s and a milieu of international students was the background in which my mind grew.–

    The enriching dialogues and conversations between professor and student, the Socratic method of teaching, the non-judgmental easy ways that gave every attorney the time to compare how they learnt the law at their home countries and how they articulated themselves, changed my 23 year old mind at very fundamental levels.

    Nothing was unacceptable in the system and there were no wrong answers, there were only ‘different’ answers – This was a huge change from the way I was educated in Chennai.

    I learnt to respect other views, state my own clearly, be financially responsible, manage hard work, independence and be comfortable with strangers. I decided to work in the Valley on graduation and came home after 2 years. And like every person who returns home, I wanted to come back to Chennai and change the way people viewed the firm culture and practice of corporate law.

     

    You have been a corporate lawyer for most of your career. What prompted you to take up corporate law? Share with us any experience which helped you to shape your career choices.

    My late uncle was a real estate lawyer in the 80’s and my father though retired as a public prosecutor continues to work in dispute resolution on a range of matters. I would ask them where companies and others who ran businesses go for their work and they would both reply that those clients’ litigation needs were taken care of in the city but for ‘other work’ they would go to Mumbai or Bangalore or Delhi. While I enjoyed practising with litigation teams in the US (The Chugh Firm), on my return I began to focus only on corporate and transactions law in India and particularly in Chennai.

    The challenge to marry the various nuances of the law with the intricacies of forward looking business is both an opportunity and challenge to the transactions and corporate law practice.

    Many commercial relationships succeed without the fear of legal enforcement simply by relying on the discipline of the parties’ motivation to be fair, their prospect for future dealing, and the increasing premium they place on reputation.

    A quality legal product or service would therefore be one that fine-tunes incentives by providing for a broader range of contingencies that will in turn dramatically reduce the costs of dispute resolution. The challenge to achieve this intricate balance calls upon several skills. This held great appeal for me as a practice area and catered to my need for cleanliness in human and business interaction.

     

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    Considering the fact that you started your career in California, was it easy for you to settle in the work environment of India?

    The style of work communication and managing client expectations were the big differences in the work environments. When I moved to Chennai in 2006 there was still no law firm that was organically grown in Chennai with a true concept of equity or partnership.

    I was a part of Universal Legal in Chennai, India for 4 years that helped me start my career when I moved home. It was an entrepreneurial foray to set up and learn the way forward in term of setting up a practice. However, in many ways there was no ‘senior’ in India whose coat tails I could hold on to, the only choice was to play natural, observe and learn. I settled in easily, it’s a great city and its home. The community places a premium on fair relationships and quality work which were encouraging when I started. Many friendships over the years have given me an insight into the work environment that is unparalleled.

     

    You co-founded Vichar Partners in September, 2010. How did the idea germinate? Any specific reasons why you chose the name “Vichar Partners”?

    I had not always wanted to set up my own firm but one is an amalgam of everything and everyone they meet. The idea of the firm germinated with the usual impatience some lawyers feel in believing that they could fundamentally change things and grow a firm that can have an impact. The energy it required and the excitement of possibilities fuelled me.

    By 2010, I felt I had enjoyed the city, represented and worked with many clients who were willing to work with a non-branded non-legacy firm and had earned the trust of some of the business leaders in the city. I had sporadically but constantly dreamt of an organically grown firm in Chennai, with all its partners in Chennai catering to everything clients need in Chennai had gained momentum. The timing seemed apt when I met my great colleagues and partners Vinod Kumar and Chitra Narayan. Everything seemed ordained and there just seemed no point in waiting anymore.

    We wanted to institutionalise and build a full service law firm and to create a platform that awarded and energised lawyers on merit. We were keen to grow a fast paced technology based law firm that would deal with clients, timelines and quality in an effective manner.

    Our name was coined by to reflect the first 2 letters of each of our names but also that in Sanskrit. Vichar meant an idea, thought or opinion which was what our firm was. We were bound in our commitment to quality and our common belief in the ethical practice of law and business.

     

    In April, 2014, Vichar Partners was merged with Jyoti Sagar Associates, Chennai and you currently work as a Partner at JSA, Chennai. What prompted this merger?

    Vichar Partners entered the market with large aspirations on being the “go-to” firm in Chennai for corporate, commercial, transaction and niche litigation work. We grew considerably well in terms of repute, associate strength and the quality of work we were handling but we did see market realities in a comparatively smaller geography. Talented young corporate lawyers were tough to find in Chennai as the city had deep roots based solely in dispute resolution and transactional work was getting outsourced which meant there was no investment in building younger lawyers in this area, or finding administrative paralegal support to handle large transactions.

    In our third year we found ourselves on other sides of the table with JSA several times, while internally we were intrigued and absorbed on the next level of growth for Vichar. A matter of timing and providence, the potential for a combination seemed complimentary to both our firms.

    Somasekhar from our Mumbai office was a significant influence when he first met us with the idea, later interactions with Murali from our Bangalore office, Amit from our Delhi Office and Dina from our Mumbai office confirmed we were on the right path to considering a merger. Of course, the powerful work ethic and integrity of the leadership of Berjis and Jyoti preceded the reputation of JSA and in the end it was almost a natural selection

    While some may try to refute this, I do believe that large law firms attract the best talent, provide superior training and mentoring, and would transform the inexperienced into an exceptionally skilled attorney. This in turn allows such firms to attract sophisticated clients, handle cutting-edge transactions and manage the greatest deal flows. A combination of these ingredients on a consistent basis offers the best opportunity to develop as a lawyer.

     

    What does a partner at a law firm like JSA do? What falls within the scope of your responsibility? Tell us about a typical work day.

    No day is like another. They are unstructured, sometimes meditative in working through a solution or reactive mode to urgencies or filled with telephone calls. Typically, the day is filled with interactions with potential clients, ongoing work and associates.
    A typical day would start with getting a handle on all the client matters going on, different transactions or other mandates involving opinions or structuring a business, that is either readying itself for a sale or targeting a purchase – the task of managing responses to all of them and understanding if their strategies fit within the walls of the law. I prioritize and coordinate with my colleagues who are working with me based on what stage each transaction or the firm’s involvement is at. Once the background work and schedules are set within the team, active participation in calls or negotiations begin, with each party at the table having multiple commercial requirements and legal must- haves. The forward looking protections that are required in an ever changing commercial background can require one to bring to bear an understanding of economics, commerce, industry and the law.

    Timelines can stretch for various reasons from parties posturing for the right leverage or purely for commercial purposes. The loop repeats and until innovative structuring, alignment of interests and final negotiations find balance– sometimes takes several months.

     

    What is the most challenging or stressful part of being a Partner at one of the most successful law firms in the country? Is it easy to have a work-life balance?

    Challenges are continuous, no piece of work is alike and the constant commercial and market changes require one to keep pace with it and opine within the four corners of the law The challenge is to use the right proportion of legal logic, commercial reasoning and fair persuasion on behalf of a client. Negotiations too are often like a puzzle, you may know where the piece goes but you also have to time when you place the piece in the puzzle so as to let others help you complete it. Being calm and composed in all kinds of crisis situations and timeline based advice is also a challenging aspect of the practice.

    No, it’s not “easy” to have a work life balance. Having said that, I don’t believe work to life balance should be 50-50, at different points of life the balance scale shifts sometimes 60-40 and at other times say 40-60. I have two kids aged 7 & 3 who like to do the typical things kids of that age do– play constantly, run, go to classes etc. With a good support system I manage to do some of it with them but not all. If you think of it all as a part of leading a “whole life” then it makes sense than try to slot each activity into a bucket of either work or life. A true partner/spouse who understands the nature of work can help immensely in keeping this balance. JSA is an even keeled firm, with a great set of people and that makes the road saner and easier.

     

    What kind of effort should a young associate put in to work to get it appreciated? What distinguishes an associate from a partner when it comes to work?

    A young associate should have a keen mind that should be somewhat of a sponge – that absorbs everything in and around, taught and not taught and a thirst to learn. The law school rote method won’t let you stay afloat in a law firm but resourcefulness and hard work will. There are no short cuts.

    The outside world and fresh off the boat lawyers are often enamoured by the pay a corporate practice offers but often fail to see the immense hard work that goes into the practice. There must be a very good reason other than money that makes one want to continue to pump in some very crazy hours, bear with challenging transaction requirements, clients who are bound to be low on patience if they are in stressed commercial situations and to sustain it all, for days to end– it’s a time vampire.

    Associates are central to a Partner’s practice. The more they learn and give the more they grow, the more they grow the Partner can expose them to a variety of work. No show is a one man show, the synchronised timing and effort of the associate team in building research knowledge, knowledge management, prompt interactions with clients on status updates or first level drafts and so can assist the Partner to build on the same to have deeper discussions, develop negotiation strategies, understand commercial requirements and enhance the quality of the practice.

     

    How important would you say are business development skills at such higher roles in a corporate law firm?

    The role of business development is a key component in a law firm. The firm has only one asset – its people. Amongst the people not everyone is required to concentrate on business development but is a requirement on the senior resources. If a senior resource can garner client confidence, provide resourcefulness and deliver as required the firms credibility grows. The larger the pool of senior resources the larger the palette of services the firm can successfully offer. The symbiotic relationship of different partners in the firm are the strong links the firm builds through its people assets in the community. I would say these skills are critical and second to none.

     

    Having a centralised HR what do you have to say about students writing to partners directly?

    JSA is a national law firm and our internship process, recruitment process – all HR functions are centralised. Applications are usually submitted at the internship or careers link on our website. Sometimes, students write to partners or associates they have met or have a relationship with through some other professional forums, while this affords familiarity with the candidate it still depends on the requirement of the location partners and of the firm at each level.

     

    When you hire lawyers under you, what specific skills and profile do you look for?

    Law school education is becoming more adept at providing attorneys with transactional skills. Generally, however, it still falls short. When I hire for my team, I look for students who worked extra hard to find some baseline transactional competencies or have devised ways to achieve them through internships, reading, taking courses at the institutes for extra focus on particular areas of law or part timing at corporate law firms.

    Given where things are in terms of corporate/transactional law practice outside of Mumbai and Delhi and given the gap between law school education and the transactional competencies that are required, it is incumbent upon the lawyer to be competent and take whatever steps necessary to educate herself to become so.

    Fresh graduates can build on their ability to understand business associations, basic advice about business structures, and draft documents related to business associations and secondly to investigate and understand facts and research the law in a given context (emphasis on due diligence).

    Working lawyers or lateral hires in addition to the above should be able to draft clearly, have thorough research skills, be able to walk a colleague or client through the process of identifying what the issues are, rules of law in play given the issues, applicability of law to the issues and finally a conclusion. They must be able to also identify and address the ethical implications of practice.

     

    What would be your advice to students who wish to go for higher studies?

    A degree for the sake of it would serve no end. However, some are geared to appreciating the jurisprudential thought involved and understand nuances better when the learning is organized through curriculum while others are adept to picking it up as they work with counsels or at law firms. A higher education abroad gives an exposure early on in a student’s career to the different styles practices and legal markets in the world. In my personal experience, these courses often help in wide network of friends in different regions and a style in writing and thought that could be unparalleled but I would not unduly overemphasise the need for a practitioner to obtain a master of laws degree.

     

    What would be your message to our readers who are budding lawyers and law students?

    Clarity in thought and expression is the single most important quality for a practising lawyer today. This assists in honing the ability to identify, evaluate, and understand business risks for clients and in turn offer appropriate legal advice. Invest in yourself constantly, by reading and understanding the rules of law both at home and abroad, this will enable one to compare contrast and therefore learn. The law is known to be a jealous mistress; you will have to give a lot to get some.

  • Namrata Chatterjee, Associate, Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas, on leaving law firm for FIFA masters, studying law at NLU Jodhpur and cracking job interview

    Namrata Chatterjee, Associate, Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas, on leaving law firm for FIFA masters, studying law at NLU Jodhpur and cracking job interview

    Namrata Chatterjee is a graduate from National Law University, Jodhpur (2013 batch). She worked with Amarchand Mangaldas & Suresh Shroff & Co, Delhi (now Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas) for around two years and has just left the organization to pursue the FIFA Master Program; a masters in humanities, management and law of sports, on a full tuition fee waiver. We asked her to share her law school and work experiences, and reasons for leaving one of the best jobs in the country.

    In this interview, she talks about:

    • Law school experience at NLU Jodhpur and all about balancing Academics with co-curricular
    • Cracking AMSS interview, work experience at AMSS and the first year of graduation
    • Applying for the FIFA Masters programmer and qualifying for full tuition waiver

     

    How would you introduce yourself? Could you please share a little bit of what motivated you to pursue law as a career?

    Hi, I am Namrata Chatterjee, a graduate of the 2013 batch of National Law University, Jodhpur. I worked with Amarchand Mangaldas & Suresh Shroff & Co, Delhi (now Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas) for around two years and have just left the organisation to pursue the FIFA Master Program; a master in humanities, management and law of sports, on a full scholarship (full tuition fee waiver).

    To be honest, Law was never my first choice career option. I had taken up the science stream and was preparing for the engineering entrance exams during my XIth and XIIth standard. Though a lack of passion in the subjects I was pursuing made me realize it would be a mistake to keep continuing down a path which wouldn’t give me work satisfaction. Hence, I then decided to pursue law. The fact that my father, who is in the Civil Services also has a law degree and my mother is also a lawyer, though she left practice a long while back had me interested in the legal profession. Though ultimately, the decision to take up law came after my elder sister, Amrita Chatterjee commenced her legal studies at NUJS, Kolkata. Therefore, while giving CLAT, my first choice was NUJS so that I could study in the same college as my sister, after studying in the same school, D.P.S R.K. Puram together.

    However, as luck would have it, I did not get through NUJS and made it to NLU, Jodhpur instead. Initially I was unhappy about the same, but in hindsight I feel it was a great thing to have happened to me as studying in a different college than my sister gave me a lot of different exposure and surely made me much more independent in life.

     

    How did you make the initial shift from a science background to law? Would you say it was difficult settling in?

    I had taken up the science stream as that was the most encouraged field to be taken up after securing over 90% in my class Xth Board exams. Though once I did take up science, I began to realize that a career in engineering wasn’t my real calling. Though when I made the shift to law, there again I got the option of taking up B.A/B.BA/B.SC (LL.B) in NLU, Jodhpur. However, this time around I decided to go with the pure social sciences and opted for B.A LL.B (Hons). Though there was one thing about the science stream that helped me in my legal studies and that was the enhanced logical reasoning skills and the propensity to question. So, I would say, it was never difficult for me to settle into legal studies.

     

    Tell us about your college life at NLUJ. What all activities did you partake in?

    In a sentence, College life at NLU, Jodhpur has given me memories of a lifetime. Though, I took a little time to settle down in Jodhpur initially having lived in Delhi for most part of my life. However, soon I became used to the quaint environment of Jodhpur. NLU, Jodhpur not only stressed on academics, wherein we had continuous assessments throughout the semester along with presentations and compulsory court room exercises in the law subjects, it also gave ample opportunities for interested students to take up mooting, debates, MUN’s, cultural activities and sports among other things. In fact, if likeminded students got together, they had the independence to start a lot of interesting activities etc. I participated in MUN’s and paper presentations and that helped us to travel along with getting a good exposure.

     

    Please tell us about the manner in which you approached academics while in college. Please share some highlights from your college days that shaped you as a lawyer.

    I always took academics seriously. I maintained a good CGPA throughout the five years. Though I’ll be honest, I did not pay attention to everything that was taught in class always and rarely ever took notes. Rather, only subjects of my interest and especially the classes taught by some of the teachers who made the classes rather engaging caught my full attention. However, to prepare for the continuous tests and exams, I always studied in groups and studied from the notes taken by my friends and generally always fared well in the exams. I would not have specific highlights that shaped me as a lawyer, but it was more of a gradual process, being aware of your rights and trying to reason with the teachers and administration to convince them, debates and discussions with my friends and finding evidence to back my points amongst other things shaped me as a lawyer.

     

    A lot of law students in their first and second year of law school plan to change the legal regime of India. Many of them promise themselves to work pro-bono on social issues, curb menaces and threats to the society. Have you ever felt that kind of thought crossing you?

    Yes, I wouldn’t deny these thoughts having crossed my mind at several occasions. Not just during college but even when I worked at Amarchand. Sometimes a cab driver while dropping me to the High Court would seek my legal advice or my house maid would approach me with a legal dispute and at those moments, I kept feeling the need to give back to the society and help the under-privileged with whatever legal knowledge I have. However, to be able to do some pro-bono work, firstly I think it is important to gain more knowledge, work experience and the resources to truly be in a position to help others and yes, if possible someday if not full time, I would hope to assist in some way in taking up pro-bono matters in whatever field I am pursuing.

     

    How did you fare in your academics at NLUJ? Would you say a great CGPA is a necessity to kickstart a good career in the legal profession?

    I maintained a consistent CGPA in college and stood within the top ten percent of my batch. A good CGPA is not the only measure to secure a good career in the legal profession. Interest in what you pursue and working hard in internships and other extra-curricular activities help as well. However, as the recruitment scenario of the big law firms go, if you have a good CGPA, it helps you to get shortlisted for the interview comparatively easily. Though maintaining a good CGPA is hard work in itself. However, that gives you the leeway from the stress of securing a PPO through the internships. Further, moot courts, publications and such activities does help in building a good CV, but as I can say from my own example, these things are not necessary to secure a good job. I only participated in one moot late into my 4th year that too since it was a moot in IPR, a subject of my interest and I did not have any publications during law school. So, it is not necessary to participate in a lot of moots etc. However, if you are interested in them, taking them up would be an added benefit. However, a good CGPA and a good interview helped me to secure a job at Amarchand.

     

    Which subjects did you enjoy during your qualifying degree? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?

    I particularly enjoyed the Intellectual Property Rights and related law subjects the most in law school. I even took up IPR as my specialisation or honours subject. Though, even more than IPR, I was passionate about sports law. From my childhood, I have loved sports and this field of sports law gave me a chance to explore the interplay of sports and law. However, sports law as a subject was not taught in my college. Therefore, to pursue my interest in the field, I constantly kept reading websites like lawinsport and pursued internships in the field. I even mentored some of my juniors in sports law under the academic mentorship program initiated by some of the students in my college. In furtherance of this interest, I even took up sports law as my seminar paper in my final semester. Even in IPR, I was more interested in copyright and trademarks as opposed to patents and I constantly kept reading, writing and researching on the congruence of IPR and sports law. Even for the research paper/projects we had to develop in most of the subjects taught in college, I would try to write them on sports related topics.

     

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    How did you plan your internships? How relevant did you find your law school education with the kind of work you were required to do at law firms?

    I actively planned to take up at least one internship in a year. I never over burdened myself with internships as I always wanted to keep some time off to spend with my family and friends at home. However, I pursued internships keeping my interests in mind. In my first year, I interned at NHRC, subsequently I pursued litigation internships with advocates and law firms like Luthra & Luthra and Parekh & Co. Though from my third year onwards, I started streamlining my internships even further to explore and gain experience in areas I was most interested in, being IPR and sports law. Therefore, I interned at Law Offices of Nandan Kamath, a boutique sports law firm in Bangalore and Copyright Integrity International. I even interned with Retd. Justice Mukul Mudgal and gained firsthand experience of interesting work in sports law.

    Law school education is the foundation to develop how you interpret the laws and the approach towards legal thinking. Though from experience, I would say that we learn more on the job than we learn in law school.

     

    Did you find that your law school education had prepared you sufficiently for the many tasks you were required to execute during your internships and later at your job?

    As I just said, law school education helps you to develop a legal thinking and good researching skills. Further, the subjects that one takes interest in law school, those subjects and certain landmark cases therein stays with us always. However, we learn most subjects and topics on the job when we are faced with a practical situation regarding the same. In a way, the curriculum at NLU, Jodhpur and the continuous tests, mid-terms, vivas, projects, presentations, moots throughout the semester prepared us to work late into the night when required and meet deadlines in any manner and these things surely help us to be prepared with the work life and expectations at your job.

     

    Soon after graduation, you joined AMSS as an Associate. How did your appointment take place? What worked for you in securing the job?

    I got placed at AMSS at day zero of our placements that year. I had never interned at AMSS before so did not know what to really expect there. However, I was shortlisted for the interview based on my CV and my good CGPA I believe. I think my interview happened very comfortably and I was confident throughout the interview and that helped me secure the job. As also, as I have previously mentioned, a good CGPA, some varied and good internship experiences and participation in paper presentations and such activities helped my case.

     

    How was the job interview? Do you remember any of the questions asked to you? Please give our readers some tips to nail a law firm interview.

    The first round of my job interview was the group discussion round and we got to discuss and debate on the Indian Premier League, since I am very passionate about sports, the topic put me at complete ease. Post the GD, we had a personal interview round which was a mix of HR and technical questions. Though, I would really like to mention that staying calm and comfortable in an interview really helps. Even if you are unsure about a particular question, put it across to them that this is what you think and tell them that on this particular point you may not be completely sure. However, the subjects you are interested in and things mentioned in your CV about projects or internships, those things one should be aware of while preparing for the interview. Know your CV well and what you tell them you are interested in and at least show that you have taken some steps towards your interest. Further, for the HR questions don’t make up answers or take long to think and answer rather use your wit and give appropriate answers, it would surely help.

     

    How was your first year after graduation? What do you think were the biggest hurdles and challenges in the early days of your career? How did you deal with them?

    The first year, more so the first six months in your job are the most difficult. If one can mentally survive through the challenges that come up in the initial phase of your job, it becomes easier to handle pressure further. Since, in AMSS they had a policy of rotation for the fresh graduates who joined them; I was placed in a corporate team for the first phase post joining AMSS before being ultimately placed in the litigation/dispute resolution department. However, since I was always interested in pursuing litigation in AMSS and having never really interned in a corporate law team in any of my previous internships, I was not very comfortable in starting my career doing corporate law. Therefore, initially I took time to settle down, took more time to complete assignments, though some of the seniors understanding my position really guided me well. So, it is very important to get good seniors to guide you initially and one should not hesitate to ask questions and soon one figures out the expectations of their seniors and how to handle timelines without compromising quality.

     

    What kind of work and responsibilities does an Associate at AMSS deal with?

    In the first year of my time at AMSS, being in the corporate department, my work responsibilities included research, assisting in drafting responses and opinions and assisting in drafting due diligence reports, though once I shifted to the litigation department, my work responsibilities increased due to shorter deadlines before court hearings. Most of my work responsibilities included research, drafting the first draft of some of the pleadings and counsel briefing notes as well as providing assistance in counsel briefings and court hearings. Also, we are expected to know the files well and be adept at paper management in briefings and hearings to aptly assist our seniors. Due to large number of matters across various judicial forums, in a lot of matters I got the chance to go to courts by myself for filing as well as minor appearances.

     

    Tell us about a case that you are particularly proud of. What steps do you take to prepare for a difficult case?

    There have been one or two high profile cases I have been involved in and due to the high stakes of those matters, it has been very interesting to work in them. The biggest advantage I felt of working in Amarchand was the diversity of matters and especially the big matters that we got involved in. These matters involved various complex questions of law and gave us a chance to closely work with senior counsels and adopt their good practices as well.

    Difficult cases require extensive research and thinking out of the box. One should always keep thinking of innovative arguments and put forth their views to their seniors.

     

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    What has been your strategy to deal with errors and mistakes?

    It is only human to err. Even I have made some errors and mistakes in my time at the firm, but dealing with them and finding quick fixes is one more thing this job has taught me. In fact, I would say along with work experience, this job has taught me more of life experiences. In terms of mistakes, I can give an example, say, if at all I would forget to bring copies of an important case law to the court, I would go to the court library and secure copies of the same before the damage is done. Therefore, it is important to reach for conferences and court a little before time and know your bags and papers well, so that these kinds of errors can be fixed within time. However, if you have made mistakes which you cannot easily fix, always bring it to the notice of your seniors so that they can use their experience for crisis management rather than hiding it from your seniors.

     

    How do you keep yourself abreast with latest industry news and trends?

    It is indeed important to be abreast with latest news in our profession. Reading the newspaper daily helps in this regard. So many times while researching for a case, I can remember reading about similar cases in the newspaper and then that helps with finding relevant and recent cases. It is also important to keep reading articles and SCC Online etc for the latest cases especially the landmark ones that come up. It is also very important to check the current position of law regarding every proposition one has to argue for their case.

     

    There is a considerable attrition rate at the top law firms, what do you think contributes to this? What has been your personal experience?

    The attrition rate is considerably high at the top law firms because the work pressure is surely a lot. Also, it more so depends on the reason one enters the law firm. Some people come to gain some good work experience before proceeding for their masters, which is somewhat my own case as well. While some people cannot deal with the daily demands and stringent deadlines, some people after joining realize this is not their interest area and move towards what they are really interested in. However, this is true that if one wants a less hectic life and most of their weekends free and finds it difficult to maintain the quality of work in extremely short deadlines, then it is difficult to continue in a big law firm.

    Personally also, after working here for around two years, I am now moving on to pursue my masters in a field which I have always been keenly interested in, i.e sports law. I applied to colleges and courses specifically providing for masters in IPR or sports law and applied and secured admission to University of Zurich, ISDE Madrid, George Washington University and the FIFA Master program and even secured a scholarship everywhere. So once I received the full scholarship (full tuition fee waiver) at the FIFA Master program, I knew it was time for me to pursue a field I am more interested in and the experience at Amarchand would definitely help me everywhere ahead. So, my reason for leaving the organisation was that though I was doing good litigation work, it did not involve a lot of sports related disputes and I wanted to always pursue my masters post getting a couple of years work experience.

     

    Life for lawfirmites can be very hectic at times. What is your take on work-life balance? How do you unwind?

    Yes, life at a law firm is hectic but during court vacations, things are less hectic and most people take their leaves at that time. I feel it is very important to have a work life balance; otherwise one tends to lose interest in their work and is busy dealing with deadlines and stress rather than enjoying what they do. So, as much as possible one should relax as well as go out with their family and friends on the weekends and try and avoid getting work back home, unless the situation really demands for it. Even in office, one should take small breaks to interact with their friends and walk around a bit to avoid sitting at their desk at a stretch for long hours.

     

    How did you decide to leave a cushy law firm job for the FIFA Masters programme? Please tell us about the programme and how you got gravitated towards it.

    I agree, it isn`t an easy decision to make when it comes to leaving a secured and well paying job for an uncertain path. However, I did what I feel will give me the right platform to pursue my field of interest.

    I have been a sports buff since my childhood. My father always found a partner in me to watch matches with him and then engage in endless discussions about various players and game strategies! Therefore, once I took law, it was only natural that sports law caught my attention the most. Now, to try and succeed in a sports related field, it is important that I obtain the right exposure and specialised knowledge. In that regard, the FIFA master fit my requirements perfectly.

    The FIFA master program is an international M.A teaching three different aspects which form the core of working in a sports related field, being humanities of sports, management of sports and law in sports.

    The first module is the humanities module which takes place in DeMontfort University, Leicester and covers aspects relating to the history and development of sports and sports organizations. The second module is the management module and is held at SDA Bocconi school of Management, Milan and the last module of the 10 months program is the law module dealing with the legal aspects of sports, dispute resolution, ethical issues in sports etc, to be held at University of Neuchatel, Switzerland. The final degree is awarded by all the three partner universities in association with CIES and FIFA.

    Along with the classroom teaching and guest lectures, the program also includes field visits to various sports clubs and organizations like FIFA, UEFA etc in order to learn about their fuctioning, marketing, governing regulations etc from the relevant experts.

    I have decided to undertake this program as along with sports law, this also widens my arena to cover management of sports which are upcoming fields in India and post completion of this masters, hopefully I would be able to contribute to further developments in these fields.

     

    How did you manage to get a full tuition fee waiver? Could you please detail the procedure in details?

    The option to apply for the scholarship is present in the main application itself and the selection procedure for the course takes place in two stages. If one is shortlisted based on the application, they then have to give an interview to be finally selected. So, during my interview I was told that they generally do not give the full tuition fee waiver scholarship to one person rather look towards dividing it amongst a few students. However, post the interview which wasn`t really a technical one, when I was finally informed of my selection, I was also informed that I have been awarded the full tuition fee waiver. The scholarship is given on the basis of need as well as merit.

     

    The question that whether one should specialise in a particular area of law or be more of a general lawyer often comes up before law students. What is your opinion on the same?

    I am going to pursue the FIFA Master program which in itself is a very specialised and unique course. This is a program organised by CIES and FIFA and taught by three partner universities being De Montfort University, SDA Bocconi School of Management and University of Neuchatel across England, Italy and Switzerland respectively. This program teaches the most relevant inter-disciplinary fields related to sports-humanities, management and law of sports. This program would surely enhance my knowledge and interest of sports law and along with it would also open the ambit of sports management if I choose to pursue the same. I agree, leaving a secure job and going to do something so niche might be a bit of a risk. However, I believe one should at least try to pursue what they love rather than keep regrets in life. So, particularly I feel if one has figured that they are interested in a specific field over the others and performs their best while dealing with work in that area then they would always enjoy what they do and get appropriate outcomes too. Working on laws that one does not find interesting, like I never enjoyed corporate laws doesn’t help in one’s growth and development as a lawyer. So, it is important to start as a general lawyer but if you feel there are some areas you enjoy more than the others, I would suggest and encourage one to pursue them further.

     

    What would be your parting message to law students?

    Work hard, enjoy what you do and don’t be afraid to take risks and explore options.