Could you please share with us about your inclination towards law, when you were passionate about literature, how did you decide to make a career out of law?
As I was growing up, discovering myself and watched my personality develop, and being an empathetic person in a world full of injustices, I found out at a very early age that Law was and still is an excellent match for my personality and strengths.
I have a great memory, excellent communication and argumentation skills, I am also extremely ambitious, I tend to strive to always get what I want and have a strong moral codex; all of which I believe to be a good combination for any lawyer.
I am an ecumenical abuser and enjoy talking to people, especially from the Tech world, and what made me decide to make a career out of law, besides my personality and passion for the law, is that I strongly believe in what was said by the Human Rights Watch in 2016 : “The same rights that people have offline must also be protected online”. That is why I am specializing in Cyber Law and Cybercrimes.
How did you envision your career while you were at law school and how did that turn out?
Every Law student strives of becoming partner at a top firm, daydreams about saving the world, thinks that the practice of law is all about nice suits and good office views. That is exactly how I had envisioned it when I was a law student.
It turned out to be quite disappointing and yet fulfilling at the same time: The world cannot be saved in a day, month, or year. The most basic human rights are being violated right before our eyes and the journey to change the world into what we believe in and want to fight for is a long way ahead.
But, the journey to getting there is the most fulfilling. I surely worked hard, but clearly had not foreseen to be filling big seats at such a young age and having many accomplishments.
That means I am where I need to be, and that I am each and every time one step closer to reaching what I am fighting for and what I believe in ever since I was “that” law student back then.
You are a young generation lawyer, you must have enjoyed your graduation. Would you like to share any “funny-legal” memories of student life?
Law school passed on by pretty quickly. I did a lot of studying, made lifelong friends, and have innumerous fond memories.
But my funniest-legal memories would be in practice, at court hearings I would say: The best one that comes to mind was when I was at a hearing as an appointed lawyer and the plaintiff’s counsel had asked a witness the following question “What is your relationship with the defendant?” to which the witness answered “he is my son” and then counsel asked “was he your son on August 8th, 2018?” – The entire courtroom burst out laughing.
How crucial it is for a legal professional to learn different languages, does it really help in one’s professional growth?
Oh, I think it is extremely crucial for a legal professional to learn different languages, especially for the ones who want to become consultants on an international level.
Attorneys who only choose litigation do not see learning different languages as a must.
But in my personal opinion, whether in the legal profession or not, I think languages are extremely important to one’s self growth, because with languages, you are at home anywhere.
A different language is a different vision of life, it’s another way of thinking, it’s another sign of bravery and it is also another way of helping people.
What differences do you see practicing in Lebanon as compared to Brazil? Is it an easy sail or more of a challenging role?
There are a lot of differences between practicing in Lebanon and in Brazil. For instance, Brazil is a federal country, and Lebanon is a unitary multiparty republic with a parliamentary system of government.
Lebanon is a mixed legal system based on a combination of civil law, Islamic, Ottoman legal principles, and the Lebanese Legislature, highly inspired by the French civil law, as where Brazil is based on civil law “sprinkled” with common law.
Lebanon is a confessional country, which a lot of laws are highly based on confessionalism, whereas Brazil isn’t.
When the rules of law are different, the practice of law reflects on that too.
What are the main functions of the United Nations Association in Lebanon?
The main functions of the United Nations Associations in Lebanon are first and foremost, collaborating with the UN and its agencies to achieve their goals, producing activities and studies that relate to the code of the UN, working to help achieving international peace and understanding on the basis of justice, equality and respect of human rights, cooperating with other NGOs for economical and social progress.
Since members of UNA of Lebanon share the same aims and principles of the UN charter and work on fulfilling them; they cooperate with UN agencies and organizations and with other NGOs that share the same goals to spread their beliefs.
As cybercrimes are on a rapid increase, what steps do you think are considerable to control them?
They say that sometimes the answer to a question is right in front of you. And that is what I believe applies to cybercrimes.
The answer to that question is based on some of the most basic steps that need to be taken: Collecting data, spreading awareness, promoting cyber peace and implementing laws, especially in matters of collaboration between states.
Last, what piece of advice would you like to give to our young legal commanders?
The most important career advice to young legal commanders is to take risks. At this point, the old model – joining the firm, sticking to it for seven years, making partner, then working there until you die- has to be essentially gone for most graduates. Your career as a lawyer can go a million different ways. The only way you’re going to find true happiness and fulfillment is to take chances and pivot when necessary.
You may start your legal career as a prosecutor, then decide that you really enjoy child support enforcement cases and pivot to family law.
Or you may start as a litigator and realize that you really prefer deal making and would rather get involved with transactional work.
Or maybe, you will create the next great legal startup. Give yourself time, don’t be afraid to take risks, and most importantly, enjoy the ride !
Could you please share with us about your inclination towards law, what inspired you to work in the corporate sector?
As a young student I was inclined to become a corporate lawyer as I had seen my father who worked in a shipping company in Dubai speak about the role of lawyers in Maritime law and trade .
The company he worked for was having a number container ships which were often having advice and legal intervention from Lawyers .
I believed lawyers as heads of nation did more than just a politician everywhere in the world .
The lawyers who turned to politicians have been remembered by majority of the people in the world for their productive good deeds and have changed the world a lot .
Your experiences are diverse in many aspects, but what creates curiosity in our minds right now is “Maritime Law”, kindly explain this niche for our audience
Maritime law is a very important law with regards to the trade of the world . The majority of cargo movement happens through the sea . Nations have changed their faces and development happened to a great extent with Maritime law and logistics.
There are more ships at sea than all the ships in ports carrying various products for all the countries .
Maritime law has played a major part in avoidance of conflicts and delays of good transit around the world .
We assume that such expanded work requires smart people in the room. So are you a team player or is it a “one-man show”?
I have a good team to back me up with my juniors and associates from different countries .
They are people of high learning capacity and quick in finding solutions .
Confrere Global Legale was made with integration of most of them so that an international association would make things happen quicker.
The core team of CGL are people of good research and learning in their fields of legal practice .
Most often dealing with different countries comes with its own challenges and unavoidable hurdles. How do you manage that and what has been your game plan so far?
We have the best influential and informative lawyers to support and joint venture with us where ever we practice law beyond the boundaries of our nation.
Their capacities, knowledge and influence with various departments and organisations have helped us get into solutions without delays.
Your profile takes us to the next interesting angle, being an investor in startups, how do you see these startups scaling employment opportunities for law students ahead?
The startups create innovations and employment opportunities. Lawyers who are innovative and fast in adaptive technologies have an advantage over others in advising these startups ans taking them ahead .
Young lawyer are more adaptive to technologies and becoming legal advisers to such innovative startups.
What thin lines you observed between Indian laws and European law dealing with different transactions?
European law is more modernized and technologically adaptive to users as for trade and diplomacy . Indian laws have a lot to be changed and we are on the changing phase with many of them .
The present laws brought out are a fine example of our changing phase in legislative enactments to suit our needs on par with the rest of the world .
Young law professionals still often choose hard work over smart work, what do you think about this aspect? How can this be changed?
Today the legal world needs smart work more than the hard work . So young lawyer who are doing the smart work gain a lot in comparison with those who do the hard work .
Smart work can also be called effective work . This is needed to take trade ahead into greater heights for an example .
The recent CEPA signed between UAE and India is a fine example for it .
The hard work of making it is over but to get its benefits to people of trade, smart work of knowledge spreading and practical usage needs to be done which is yet to be done .
So hard work alone will not suffice today smart work plays a major role for young lawyers especially in trade law .
How did choosing law as a career come into the picture for you? What were your law school days like at Symbiosis Law School and NLSIU?
Truth be told, Law came in as a default option after I cleared my 12th standard. During my school days, I had aspirations of pursuing a career in cricket. I missed an opportunity of getting into the Delhi Under-17 team in the 11th grade and injured myself soon after which made the cricket option too risky for me to pursue. Since I hadn’t nurtured any other ambition by then and coming from a family of lawyers (persuasive ones at that), I was positively influenced into taking up law as a career.
I will always cherish the 5 years I spent at the Symbiosis Law School, Pune. Being away from home and living by myself contributed immensely to my growth as a person. I made some amazing friends who I consider as family. Once in a while, we all get together and regale ourselves by reminiscing our time in Pune.
The Master’s program offered by NLSIU was predominantly a distance learning program which I pursued after having spent 3 years at the Bar. I would only have to visit Bangalore once a year for my examinations. Aligned with NLSIU’s unmatched standards, it was a challenging course especially since I was working professionally and had limited time to devote to academia. I look back with great satisfaction for having taken up this challenge. Getting my degree from the Chief Justice of India, who by convention is also the Chancellor of the College was a special feeling.
Being a fifth-generation lawyer, you have been fortunate to have your grandfather, Dr Lalit Bhasin, the President of the Society of Indian Law Firms and also the Managing Partner of Bhasin & Co; along with Senior Advocate Mr Sanjeev Anand, as your mentors. How essential do you believe a role model plays in one’s legal journey?
Darius Khambatta, one of the finest lawyers at the Bombay Bar once told me that in law, you learn most through Osmosis, which means by observation. He couldn’t have put it better!
As a young lawyer, one longs for a sense of direction, purpose and the wisdom to know when to speak your mind and also, when to mind your speech. Ours is a heavy profession and every now and then, we need a dose of inspiration. That is why it is quintessential to have a mentor(s) in our line of work. I am indeed fortunate to have mentors like Dr Bhasin, Mr Karanjawala and Mr Anand. They have guided me at every important junction in my professional career and (*touching wood*) continue to do so. I hope I can make them proud one day.
You have had great wins in your litigation journey, including TGIF judgement at Hyderabad, title dispute at the Bombay High Court, and your regular appearances before the Supreme Court, amongst others. What motivates you to scale bigger heights in dispute resolution?
The TGIF case was an inflection point in my career for it gave me the self-confidence to handle big-ticket litigation independently. I was 26 years old at the time and I still remember that I sought a passover, however, the Ld. Bench of the High Court of Judicature at Hyderabad refused to grant me one and directed me to present my submissions. There was a lot of public glare to this matter as the restaurant was alleged to have served liquor to underage persons which resulted in a fatal accident. It was heartening to get a favourable order whereby the HC quashed the liquor licence suspension order inter-alia on the ground that it was passed in violation of the principles of natural justice.
Similarly, the title dispute before the Bombay HC was a memorable experience. Interestingly, we preferred a writ petition in this case and not a civil suit as the PSU had rejected our client’s bid for setting up an Ethanol Plant by stating that the land did not belong to the company but to the Director. I remember working tirelessly on this matter alongside my Partner, Chaitanyaa Bhandarkar and we were pleased to be rewarded by a favourable finding given by a bench of Justice Gautam Patel and Justice Madhav Jamdar after hearing us for two consecutive days.
Dispute Resolution (Litigation and Arbitration) has always been my primary area of practice. It is a demanding line of work and one has to learn how to burn the midnight oil. I make sure I consistently keep motivating (and hopefully, inspiring) my team to keep pursuing excellence in what they do. Notwithstanding the result, which is not in our hands, it is about enjoying the journey, finding the strategic nuances, researching for that clincher point and giving it our best before the Court or Tribunal.
Let’s talk about your firm, Numen Law Offices, which you have co-founded and are a partner at. We’d love to know about the conception of this idea of establishing your own office and how have you been taking it forward?
Back in 2018, I would visit Mumbai almost on a fortnightly basis for work. As cliche as it may sound, I remember telling my cousin while we were driving down from Walkeshwar overlooking the Marine Drive that I wish to have an office here one day. I am glad that I connected with like-minded professionals during my adventures at the Bombay High Court. Everyone understood the need to collaborate as then we would be able to provide more services under one roof. Law is a vast profession and clients prefer specialists. We started Numen Law Offices with 4 Partners, all of whom bring different skill sets to the firm’s repertoire. We currently have two offices, one in New Delhi and the other in Mumbai. We have tried our best to incorporate the best practices, be it in our core legal work or in the managerial side of the firm. We have a dedicated HR, Accounting and IT team all of whom contribute immensely to the running of the firm. It has been a challenging yet rewarding journey thus far but as Robert Frost once famously wrote, “the woods are lovely, dark and deep but I have promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep”
You also hold a strong association with the International Bar Association, where you were appointed as India’s National Representative in 2019 and currently hold two officer positions in the Young Lawyers Committee. Tell us about your experience at the largest bar association in the world, and how it has helped pave your journey forward?
My appointment as a National Representative could have been a case of being at the right place at the right time. In 2017, I was selected as a scholar to speak at the IBA Annual Conference in Sydney. A day before the main conference, I attended the Young Lawyers Training Program where I was introduced to the then chair of the YLC by my friend Pranav Srivastava, who, after speaking to me for 10 minutes, suggested that I should apply for the NR position. I did apply and as luck would have it, my candidature was approved by the YLC Board. That’s where my journey with the IBA began. I was soon appointed as an Officer at the YLC and now hold the position of the Asia Pacific Regional Forum Liaison Officer as well as the Scholarship Officer of the Committee. It’s really been a great journey with the IBA.
Our profession has transcended national boundaries and as young lawyers, we must look at opportunities to synergise with our global brethren. In addition to one’s core practice areas (litigation/corporate law etc.), it is important to devote time to increase your bandwidth as a professional. This not only forges life-long relationships but embellishes one’s own profile as well.
Amongst your various areas of specialisation including, Commercial Disputes in the field of Arbitration, Insolvency, Real Estate, Projects & Infrastructure, which area of practice excites you the most personally?
I ventured into independent practice at a fairly young age as a result there were many days when I would not have much work to do. So any new matter coming my way got me excited. I am fortunate to be slightly busier now but that sentiment of excitement about getting a new brief or opinion is still the same as it was 6 years back.
All types of commercial disputes excite me. I am involved in some construction arbitrations and also doing noteworthy work in the Insolvency sector. Recently, I have also been instructed to give legal opinions on contractual issues arising out of complex infrastructure projects. They require a very nuanced yet pragmatic approach which aligns with the objectives of the company. I have some white-collar cases on my docket which makes for a great interplay between commercial and criminal jurisprudence. I am happy to be doing good work but it is still very much a work in progress.
Not only law practice, but legal academia is your strong suit, with over 25 publications in both national and international journals. How essential do you believe research and writing are in a lawyer’s career?
I have always believed that legal academia and writing embellish your profile as a professional. Especially for us litigators as it allows us to express our thoughts in a non-confrontational and non-adversarial manner. It improves one’s research, analytical and drafting skills, that too on a far wider canvas as opposed to our briefs, which have several strategic restrictions.
At Numen Law Offices, we have started a monthly newsletter wherein our members are mandated to write one short article on a topical issue covering their area of practice. I also encourage my juniors to give lectures/talks at law schools and I do so when the opportunity arises. We try to imbibe a culture that encourages us to look and think beyond our respective briefs.
Finally, with so many experiences that you have gathered so early on in your career, what would your advice be for the up and coming legal professionals?
The first advice would be that one should always feel that they are ‘up and coming’. A sense of satisfaction with one’s position at the bar leads to complacency for which there is no room in our profession. Every day there is something new to learn. We are all tenants of success and need to give our dues regularly to stay in the game.
However, what is most important in life, and more so in this profession is to love what you do. Some say the law is a jealous mistress, others call it a lifelong marriage. Whatever it may be, it is quintessential that one is passionate about their work. With the advent of the metaverse and the boom in IT, several new regulations and laws are likely to surface giving opportunities to young lawyers to develop new areas of expertise. The legal services sector has transcended national boundaries so young lawyers today have several opportunities to practice anywhere across the world. It is a great time to be a part of this profession so treat every day as an adventure and every conversation as an opportunity. There is a proverbial saying that if the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, the second-best time is now!
Why does corporate law attract so much attention? What makes it so unique?
The corporate sector in India is at a developing stage. The majority of the mid-size businesses in India are still not structured formally and are gradually moving towards formalization. Considering the aforesaid, there is a huge potential in corporate law practice. Further, there is a dearth of corporate lawyers in Tier II and Tier III cities including small towns. I think this is one of the key reasons that corporate law attracts more attention.
The other aspect which makes corporate law unique is the financial aspect. Starting one’s legal journey in courts in India is still not financially viable, whereas, a career in corporate law with a law firm usually leads to a decent pay package even at the early stages of the career.
If we start from the beginning, were you ever dicey while choosing law as a career option?
I was never dicey while choosing law as a career option. As my father is a tax lawyer, I always had an inclination to be a lawyer from my school days despite being aware that it requires a lot of hard work and determination. I used to accompany him to tax tribunals at times during my school vacation. The courtrooms always intrigued me to be a lawyer.
However, I took time in choosing my practice area. I joined law school with a thought process that I will become a tax lawyer and join my father, however, later I realized my inclination towards corporate-commercial law.
You completed your LLB in 2008 from Panjab University and LLM (Commercial Law) in 2009 from Cardiff University, Cardiff (UK). How strenuous was it to get into Cardiff, a top ten university in the UK? Would you like to share your internship experience with a Kuala Lumpur-based law firm?
I would say that completing Masters in Law at Cardiff University was more strenuous than getting into the university. As the Indian legal education system (when I completed law) was more subjective, getting a hang of the English education system (which focuses more on the practical side) took some time and effort in the initial days. Education at Cardiff University helped me to enhance my analytical and problem-solving skills which are much necessitated for a lawyer.
I had a delightful experience with Azmi & Associates, a Kuala Lumpur-based law firm. It was my first experience with a foreign law firm. I worked on corporate transactions and did advisory work during my internship. Perhaps, some of the assignments involved Indian parties so I also used to refer to Indian law. Further, the Contract Act and Companies Act applicable at that point of time in Malaysia were similar to what was applicable in India, hence adapting with work was not difficult. The Firm and its members were very supportive. I am still in touch with the Managing Partner and Corporate Partner of the firm.
You assisted many renowned authors like Late Dr. Avtar Singh and were engaged in legal research while employed in LexisNexis. Immediately after that, you moved to CLG and dedicated almost 5 years. How has research work helped you in establishing your legal understanding at CLG?
I think one of the important requirements for legal practice is that you should be aware of where the law is and what it says. Implementation of the law is a subsequent step. The research work done at LexisNexis helped me to gain an in-depth understanding of what the law says. Considering my interest in corporate-commercial law, I was always given the opportunity at Lexis Nexis to work on books relating to corporate-commercial law.
I would say that the research work gave me a foundation to practice law. At CLG, I worked in different areas of law including advice on corporate matters, regulatory aspects (in sectors like food processing and pharma) and disputes resolution. While I was not very keen to work on the disputes side, the Managing Partner at CLG persuaded me to have some experience of commercial litigation/ arbitration to have a holistic experience of legal practice.
You advise in assorted sectors like aviation, automobile, chemicals and fertilizers, food processing, manufacturing, IT, infrastructure, hospitality, and shipping. Which industry interests you the most? How does one handle advising all such evolving industries together?
I find the transport industry (specifically aviation and shipping) more interesting in comparison to other sectors. I still remember my first assignment concerning aviation finance advice at Clasis Law. I found it challenging initially but, the aspects involved while advising on the assignment were fascinating. Subsequently, my secondment at Clyde & Co, Dubai in 2018 brought me closer to the aviation sector where I worked with the aviation team and got an opportunity to work on various aspects of aviation. I am currently advising on shipbuilding contracts and contracts relating to the procurement of equipment for shipbuilding.
With regards to handling evolving sectors together, I think it is imperative to stay abreast with the legal developments in these sectors. As these are evolving sectors, the law keeps on developing from time to time and it is important to keep yourself updated to advise on such evolving sectors.
What responsibilities do you carry out as a Managing Associate with Chandhiok & Mahajan (C&M)?
At C&M, I handle transactional and advisory work. I have been working on assignments relating to aviation, automobile, chemicals and fertilizers, manufacturing, IT, and shipping. In addition, I am also gaining exposure to other areas of law such as insolvency and restructuring.
We often hear that a lawyer has a never-ending learning process. What is your next move to accelerate your career?
Yes, learning is a never-ending process for lawyers and I believe it is important to upgrade your skills from time to time.
Going forward, I intend to focus on business development and further enhance my advocacy skills. I am currently exploring suitable study programs which can be taken up simultaneously with work to enhance my aforesaid skills.
Other than work, you are a fitness enthusiast and are involved in reading insightful books. How would you inspire a young mind to follow a healthy routine?
I think a healthy routine is not just for physical fitness, it also has an impact on your professional life.
For instance, following a regular fitness regime requires persistent determination and it keeps you more disciplined and focussed. Achieving fitness goals also boosts a person’s confidence. In my view, discipline, perseverance, a focussed approach, setting goals, and learning something new each day are a few of the key essentials for a successful professional life. I believe the advantages of a healthy routine and prerequisites for a successful career are interlinked.
This connection can probably be a source of inspiration for young minds as everyone aims for a successful career. Further, reading insightful books keeps me motivated to keep going. I remember a quote from my recent read – Robin Sharma’s ‘5 AM Club’ which says “When you feel like surrendering, continue. Triumph loves the relentless.”
You’ve graduated with a Bachelor in Engineering and then went on to pursue Law from the University of Delhi. What motivated you to switch your stream and pursue law?
It was demotivation that actually motivated me to do law. I was tired of the monotonous routine offered by my previous job and to break that I enrolled in an evening college offered by Delhi University at that time and thereby I entered into law and for some time I was pursuing Job as well as law side by side. But then I quit my job and entered into law and restarted my career as an Intern. Believe me, it is the most difficult task to abandon a good career and restart as an intern in a totally unrelated field and that was the actual motivation to take the law very seriously. Motivation is overrated as I was not that motivated but I had no choice other than to pursue law seriously and improve. It is a consistent effort to become better which actually worked.
You have been actively taking up Pro-Bono cases and have done a lot of free service in your career trajectory? How important is it for Law Students and professionals to take up Pro-Bono cases and help the needy?
At the initial stage, maybe for 2-3 years, you should not think about the fee as the experience you will gain will work wonders in years to come. That will compensate for free or pro bono work. I recommend enrolling with legal service authority in the initial years and helping the society and when you become established in your field then also devote some time to Pro Bono activities.
Not all students manage to get into good law colleges let alone NLUs. How did you, as an engineering student, become fortunate?
It is not about college or fortune. It is about how desperate are you? How needy are you? How much hunger do you have? When something is not working, we blame our college, the circumstances and our background. Instead of improving ourselves, putting hours in grooming our skills, we blame them. Your college or background has nothing to do with it. It is your hunger to achieve more.
Can you walk us through your day in life? What is the life of a Founder of a reputed law firm and a renowned lawyer?
I have to reach 10 AM to court if it is an argument, then have to spend a few hours preparing that too in the morning, so you can say, I have to start at 6 AM or 7 AM in the morning.
Between 10 AM to 4 PM I have to be in court and come to the office at 4 PM or 5 PM then have to start preparing for conferences scheduled for that day. Drafting work and preparation work for the upcoming day is delegated to associates who briefs me by EOD.
At 7 PM when I finish with conferences, I get briefs from associates and plan for the next day.
At 8 PM-9 PM, you-tubing and blogging are scheduled.
On weekends, I focus mainly on Judgement reading and conferences.
How has social media impacted your career?
As a first-generation lawyer, I started blogging in 2014, started youtube 2018 and LinkedIn in 2021 so the impact is huge as 90% of clients come through these platforms.
It is now close to a decade that you have been a Practising Advocate at the Hon’ble Supreme Court of India and also are the Founder of LexSpeak Legal. What kept you motivated all the way long?
Again, I would say motivation is overrated. Someday you will feel motivated and someday you may not. It is consistent efforts and working on different cases, handling challenges that have worked.
Can you share with us what it is like to build a clientele from scratch? What tips would you like to share with the aspiring lawyers?
I was blogging for almost 7 years so it was my source but there are many sources for beginners like offering free legal advice on various online/offline platforms, joining legal aid, acting as proxy counsel for various seniors which in future may refer your matters. Socializing/Networking. Taking lead in legally solving social issues.
What key tips do you suggest to the lawyers representing in the Courts?
Well, I am still learning things so I am not at that level to give advice or tips. But I would like to emphasize that apart from legal skills lawyers should develop allied skills like marketing, accounting, finance, blogging, business management.
How tough was pursuing C.A. with additional professional degrees like B. Com & LL.B.?
There are two parts to any academic journey, especially when it involves an extremely practical/on the ground kind of qualification such as pursuing CA – first is the academic or theoretical knowledge itself, which is not as tough as one would perceive since many concepts would overlap with B.Com and LLB. If the fundamentals of various topics are clear (at Foundation/Intermediate level), then the theoretical knowledge is relatively comfortable to maneuver.
However, the second one, which is more important and will result in long-lasting benefits is the “Articleship”. I started working when I was 17 and worked effectively, in three shifts – from 9 am to 11 am, in M&A/Corporate Tax Litigation, thereafter from 11 am to 6 pm in Audit and again from 6 pm to 9 pm in M&A/Corporate Tax Litigation. Of course, given the time commitment, one has to prioritize a lot and that does create additional pressure while pursuing other degrees. However, to manage the time and overall pressure, one does have to commit to a particular mission, and while on that the time management associated with it.
Many students feel that tax litigation is hard to follow, but the same amused you. How can corporate tax be learned in a fun way?
My stint with corporate tax litigation was during my Articleship/Internship period – in this context, I was new to the field and found the concept of litigation fascinating since it tests the technical prowess of corporates (and their advisors) on one hand, and the might of the Income-tax authorities on the other. Further, complex issues involving corporate restructuring, interpretation of a particular exemption/deduction, etc. would have required in-depth planning and analysis before taking such a position in the return of income, and therefore, the fascination lies in the fact that one would have to defend such a position during litigation, which would have been analysed thoroughly in the past. To me, the learning and the associated fascination comes from the fact that each position or stand is not taken on a stand alone basis, but after considering the previous stands, impact on the future financials of the company involved, interaction and interconnectedness with other regulatory laws (such as corporate law, securities law, FEMA, IndAS, etc.) and therefore, to understand a particular issue under litigation is to again understand that entire gamut of analysis undertaken in hindsight, and what could have been done at that time so that the litigation scenario could have been obviated.
Would you like to share your experience of any M&A transaction that shaped your career?
Initially, I had started my career with KPMG Mumbai in their M&A Team at the age of 20. Then when a part of the team transitioned to PwC Mumbai, I got an opportunity to directly work with the India M&A Head of PwC at the age of 22. And it was at that time, I was handed the responsibility of conceptualising and executing the merger of Cairn India with Vedanta in a $2.9 Bn all-share swap deal. The concept itself dealt with a gamut of laws and regulations owing to a complex ownership structure – tax, corporate law, FEMA, securities law, stamp duty, etc. At that time, IndAS was just taking shape, and we had to figure out the overall impact of IndAS on standalone as well as consolidated financial statements of Vedanta, and without any specific guidance, it was a challenge to apply IndAS 103 and IndAS 110, dealing with business combinations and consolidation/control assessment. Dovetailing and interconnecting all the laws was a task in itself at a conceptual level.
In addition to that, corporate India was transitioning from a High Court based jurisdiction to a National Company Law Tribunal based jurisdiction. So, from an execution perspective, we had to unlearn the old procedures, re-learn the new ones, and then present to the NCLT the merits of our case, which was one of the first few to be sanctioned by the NCLT post its formation.
I think the key takeaway from this is that the tax and regulatory landscape in India are ever-evolving and one cannot work in a static environment. And I have learnt to rely on my fundamentals while applying the fundamentals to the constantly changing dynamics in the M&A landscape.
You are a part of “Katalyst Advisors” (Mumbai), a boutique firm focusing on Mergers & Acquisitions. How has the journey been so far?
The journey has been fantastic so far, to answer in one line.
To elaborate – when I joined Katalyst Advisors since its inception, our vision has always been to be a boutique firm, focussing only on M&A and related aspects, and with a limited team so that we can do justice to the matters at hand, especially when it involves complex commercial, regulatory and tax matters.
Today, in the era of “accumulation”, quality has been overwhelmed by the quantity, and therefore, our vision, since its inception 4-5 years back, has been to focus only on the quality of our advice, rather than the quantity or volume of clients. This has worked well for us as we have worked on some major deals in the last couple of years – major family separation of the TVS Group, divestment of Eureka Forbes by Advent International, acquisition of Thyrocare by PharmEasy, private InvIT structure between Singapore based GIC and IRB Infra, major fundraising-related structure for the Shapoorji Pallonji Group, etc. This has added a lot of value to our learning in addition to us providing value addition to the client.
Apart from the client work, the notion of building a firm right from the beginning – designing the website, newsletter, etc. has excited me a lot and has given me immense satisfaction as compared to my previous endeavours.
How challenging has it been maintaining a work-life balance in this era of Work from Home?
Well, we have been partially working from the office since June 2020 after the first complete lockdown – however, I must say that, as an M&A professional, the focus of clients on consummating any deal has increased, and in the last 1 year, as I mentioned, we managed to close three major deals – the TVS Family restructuring (a $7 Bn family separation), acquisition of Thyrocare by PharmEasy and acquisition of Eureka Forbes by Advent International, and therefore, the work pressure has certainly increased. Of course, with high stakes involved, the concept of 9 am to 6 pm workday, or Monday to Friday working week is not obliterated, but at the same time, I have consciously managed to take some time out to maintain my physical and mental health (through regular meditation and cardio), and the hobbies that I love (for example, playing the Tabla), given that in the times of such uncertainties and limited social interaction if one focuses on being mentally and physically fit, one has won half the battle.
I look forward to taking some mask-less vacations soon, but till then, the personal health regime that I have managed to maintain has helped me a lot over the last 15-20 months to cope up, and, be more effective at my work.
What is your current role? Could you walk us through how a normal day looks like in your life?
I am into Mergers & Acquisitions at Katalyst Advisors presently. I handle promoter-related issues, such as family settlements, succession planning, pre-IPO planning, etc. corporate restructuring and deal/ transaction advisory related issues, certain specific regulatory-related and corporate/ international tax-related issues and deal with a whole host of laws such as income-tax, FEMA (outbound/ inbound/ debt investment advisory), securities’ law (LODR, ICDR, Takeover Code, AIF/ InVITs/ REITs/ etc.), corporate law, stamp duty, IndAS, competition law, etc.
In this context, given that we deal with very interesting issues, involving interaction with a lot of tax and regulatory laws, a “normal” day differs from day to day, but largely, it involves conceptualisation of deals, which involves various laws mentioned above, and coming up with innovative ideas to achieve the commercial objective of the client, while keeping in mind the tax and regulatory fetters. Conceptualization becomes all the more challenging and interesting, if it involves listed entities or non-resident parties, etc.
From an execution perspective, given that any M&A deal would most likely have in place a Share Purchase/Subscription Agreement, Shareholders’ Agreement, Non-competes, etc. and if it involves a merger/ demerger, then the entire NCLT approval process in place for approval of a Scheme of Arrangement, it requires a thorough understanding of the commercial objectives of the client, and ensuring that the same is reflected in various transaction documents, as well as ensure that the regulatory approvals (NCLT/ RD/ RoC/ OL, etc.) come through based on the definitive agreement.
As a result, a “normal” day would involve interacting through meetings and calls with the clients, lawyers, valuers, regulators, etc., preparing decks, notes and emails capturing our advice, following through with the above to get our idea to the client, and finally negotiating and closing the deal with the other parties/ regulators to see the deal seeing the light of day!
You have authored several articles in relation to the M&A field, rendered several seminars, and co-authored “Impact of GAAR on Holding Structures” published in Compendium of GAAR published by the Bombay Chartered Accountants Society. How important is it to publish legal articles for law students fundraising-related in their career?
One needs to write articles. There are several reasons for this – firstly, providing an output in a limited number of words requires a combination of thorough research, understanding the issue at hand in-depth, and then paring out the “noise” to articulate in the best possible manner so that your readers understand the core issues. Therefore, writing articles not only help in the technical knowledge getting sharpened (through research) but also the articulation skills getting honed depending on the platform where one is publishing – for example, on a technical platform, one may want to discuss more intricate technical issues, while on a general platform (such as financial dailies), one may want to translate the technical issues into more commercial ones for a wider reach.
As you are an expert on Mergers and Acquisitions transactions, would you like to advise anything specific to the like-minded aspirants?
If one likes the M&A/deals space, then one needs to understand, in detail and thoroughly, the entire gamut of tax and regulatory laws, as mentioned previously. Once the fundamentals are cleared, one can easily traverse through the constantly changing tax and regulatory environment – however, if fundamentals are not clear, then one would be lost in a cyclone of the dynamic environment. In addition, and equally important, is for one to research the commercial aspects of a deal – what was the rationale of a particular deal, what were the valuation parameters, are there similar deals taking place in the same space, was it a distressed or a voluntary deal, what would be the impact on the overall group business as a result of the deal, what would be the impact on the promoters, etc. As I mentioned earlier, any deal is different from any other deal, a deal evolves constantly before its consummation, and therefore, each deal requires a “tailored fit”, which, in turn, requires one to understand the commercial, regulatory and tax matters in-depth and apply one’s knowledge to facilitate deal consummation.
Is it hard for a non-national-law school graduate to find his/her “first job”? What are your thoughts?
Unfortunately, yes – a challenge faced by non-national-law school graduates is for finding his/her first job. Several law schools have not developed/grown to the extent that national law schools have, which tends to impact the exposure that students may have. Additionally, the lack of placement opportunities leaves students with the sole choice to apply for jobs on their own – which ultimately leads them to apply to multiple places without a positive response. The pleasant change we are getting to see in the recent past however is that several lawyers/graduates are beginning to work with smaller businesses and corporate houses (as in-house counsels) and with young firms, which perhaps wasn’t so much the trend ten years back. Given the startup boom, many young lawyers are exhibiting an entrepreneurial streak, with the setting up of new firms even fresh out of law school.
How did you manage to get your first break at Amarchand Mangaldas?
This is a question I get quite often. Through my time in law school, I focused on moots, seminars, and the likes. I spent ample time on improving my resume, which I think has helped me quite a bit over the years. It isn’t that I got my first break on the first attempt – I did indeed apply to several firms and did see rejection. A simple word of advice is to not give up and to keep trying to find a role that works for you. I would also take the opportunity for law school students to use the course duration to intern at different organizations/firms, to understand the options of practice areas, etc that are available for them to work towards. Through this process, a student can identify the role they specifically want to apply for and therefore work towards putting together a sharp resume for their job applications.
Among civil and corporate litigation, which interests you most and why?
My pick would be corporate litigation as it is the closest to my practice areas. I feel that I am the most productive and have added most of the value in areas that I’m passionate about and understand well. Civil litigation tends to get quite tedious with the procedure and other things that I prefer not to dabble in.
What can be the real challenges while establishing a career in the field of law?
The primary challenge is to find a way to set yourself apart from everyone else that you compete with. The law is the same for everyone, but finding the simplest solution that saves time, effort and money is perhaps something incredibly valuable to clients. Through the years of practice thus far, I’ve understood that keeping my knowledge up to date is only the tip of the iceberg. It’s important to understand the practical side of things alongside theory. That being said, one of the bigger challenges when it comes to setting up your law practice, is the test of patience. Given that by regulations in India a lawyer cannot solicit work, a large question always remains on how the practice may grow organically. A word of advice I have always received consistently from each of my mentors and seniors is to remain sincere and hardworking while giving each client your absolute best.
Funding deal and acquisition sounds like interesting areas to work in. What do you like most in these areas?
It most definitely is an incredibly interesting area to work in. What I personally like about the areas of work is how one can tangibly secure the interests of the relevant stakeholder while seeing the deal through. The ability to structure deals to enable the growth of businesses that ultimately become larger brands – is a very satisfying process that for me is incomparable to anything else. This becomes all the more exciting when you start to represent businesses that you have been a customer/fan of.
How does the Indian and Overseas outlook change with respect to litigation? Do overseas companies prefer litigation over ADR?
I don’t particularly see much of a difference in terms of the outlook domestically and overseas. Conservative approaches are always to remain litigation averse and look to be as compliant as possible. Though, from my experience, it seems to be that parties globally favour ADR over traditional litigation simply because of the swift nature of redressal of disputes. Some legal systems globally are known to resolve disputes rather quickly – but the general tone seems to be leaning more in favour of ADR.
Can an Advocate be soft-spoken yet established; what do you think about how the legal profession takes this quality?
Most definitely. I’ve come across many litigation lawyers (including established younger lawyers as well as senior counsels) that are soft-spoken but have made a mark in the profession. Earlier, the stigma attached to a loud booming voice commanding more respect and the same improving the ‘presence’ of a lawyer seems to have vanished over the years. Be it in courtrooms or in board rooms while negotiating deals, it’s a positive change to see people looking at content over form. The ability to put across a point effectively in my opinion is the most important quality than anything else.
Would you like to give any career/life tips to the readers?
The simplest tip that I would give to anyone is to always keep things as simple as possible. Sticking to basics and doing that well, can often go a very long way and would help achieve more than trying to do something fancy and over the top. Consistency, hard work, and the thirst to acquire knowledge alongside finding answers are some of the key qualities to develop. As cliched as it may sound, trusting in a well-developed process and following through with the process achieves a lot more than working backwards by focusing solely on the goal. Oftentimes focusing on the goal might only add to the already existing pressure.
How smooth is it to be an in-house counsel? Or is it the other way round?
In my view, neither the in-house counsel role nor the law firm role is completely devoid of challenges and hurdles. Having been a part of both legal worlds I can safely state that each role comes with its own set of challenges and privileges.
However, it is extremely incorrect to assume that in-house counsels are just “glorified paper-pushers”. There is a lot of responsibility that comes attached to an in-house role. When you hire an external law firm, its role and liability are limited to the ‘scope of work’ and ‘exclusion’ clauses elucidated in its engagement letter. My employment contract as an in-house counsel is devoid of any such sections. The legal liability of the organisation/transaction rests on your shoulders; even simple human errors can sometimes cause you sleepless nights due to the potential repercussions they may have. Even if you hire an external counsel, they have limitations either on bandwidth or the complete know-how regarding the commercial dynamics of the deal. There are many matters which are done/resolved without any external help.
So many assumptions have been made over the years regarding my move to an in-house role; that I left the law firm life “to retire”. With quality legal work coming my way at Eight Roads, I feel anything but retired. I can say that the work of an in-house counsel is exciting as well as challenging. Unfortunately, in-house roles are not always given due recognition or respect.
People may have come across some in-house lawyers who may take their role lightly but people equally come across some law-firm counsels who may shirk responsibility. I believe that the generalization of any work role — legal or otherwise, is unfair; it’s honestly up to each individual on how they want to make the best use of the opportunity they have been presented with. I truly hope I am!
You worked in the most renowned law firms like Cyril Amarchand Mangaldas & Khaitan & Co for about 5 years and now working as a Senior Legal Counsel with Eight Roads Ventures (an international VC/PE firm). What major changes have you found in the working approach between the three?
It was an absolute honour to start my career with the likes of Cyril Amarchand Mangaldas and Khaitan. Both the firms are filled with some of the most reputed lawyers, and I had the chance to train under some of the very best.
As a junior, I had the opportunity to work on some complex, high-stake transactions; and even if I wasn’t lead counsel, I got to do the groundwork, research on obscure legal points, and observe and learn from all parties involved.
As the years progressed, so did my responsibilities, direct exposure to clients, and the learning curve was steep. However, as a part of a law firm, my daily work interactions were primarily with other lawyers. While it is the best way to garner more legal knowledge and stay abreast with the constant change in-laws, it also limited my views on how the corporate world truly applied our legal advice to their business.
Within the Eight Roads ecosystem, I am interacting with persons from different spheres globally — investment, finance, HR, communications, founders, company CFOs and so forth daily.
Listening to their various conversations has given me a better understanding of how businesses operate and how best to curate my legal advice. As an in-house counsel, you don’t work “for” the client but “with” the client. You are part of the same team and are equally responsible alongside the investment members for the success or failure of any investment/project. Knowing the law is important but it is meaningless if not practically applied in any given situation. More often than not, I am aware of the commercial nuances of each deal and this helps me negotiate the key legal points, take commercial calls, and reach a mid-way understanding on other issues. There is a more holistic approach to my legal review which goes beyond just the transaction at hand. While the work of an external counsel ends once we close a deal, my work continues well beyond. I must help maintain ongoing collaborations.
Now we know that you work as a Senior Legal Counsel with Eight Roads Ventures, could you highlight your role in the firm?
The role at Eight Roads is a multi-faceted one. I deal with a range of legal issues right from investment agreements, exit documents, tax matters, confidentiality concerns, debt financing, vendor documents, legal notices, insurance, corporate governance to employment contracts.
As part of the Eight Roads’ Ventures India team (ERVI), I help strategize, negotiate and close investments in the early/growth stages of companies operating in fields of healthcare, technology, consumer, and financial services.
I also play an important role in negotiating and implementing fund exits. The legal work at Eight Roads is not merely transactional but also relates to internal fund compliances and portfolio management. Given that Eight Roads is a part of a global platform, my work goes beyond Indian law issues. I regularly encounter matters concerning international jurisdictions and it is very interesting to compare how people commercially and legally view and assess risks associated with VC/PE deals in different jurisdictions.
ERVI also endorses CSR activities and I am honoured to have been given a chance to spearhead these.
A very important aspect of my role is balancing commercial considerations and relationships with founders/partner companies while ensuring I negotiate in the best legal interests of Eight Roads. Many times, I am also required to chase law firms (sometimes even my ex-peers). There may be some commercial implications, which are highly confidential if a deal does not close within certain timelines.
I often joke with my colleagues that the founders and law firms must equally dislike me! Unfortunately, that is the nature of my job and I can only hope that the industry can know me beyond my in-house counsel role — I am not that bad a person (at least that is my view!). I strive to the best of my ability to be practical under the given circumstances and help cultivate lasting partnerships.
Not many young female lawyers reach the height you achieved, what was the story behind your success? Were you the privileged child or had to dig in deep to quench the thirst?
I was extremely privileged to have loving parents who were supportive of my education and career decisions. Having said that, I am a first-generation practising lawyer in my family and had to find my own feet in the legal profession.
I have no godfather in the legal industry. Before joining the three-year law course in Government Law College, Mumbai (GLC), I had completed my graduation in Mass Media from Jai Hind College. It was an altogether different field.
While many of my media classmates had already secured jobs and earned their first salaries, I was studying hard, with no promise of a job and limited financial means.
During my law school days, it was difficult to secure internships with law firms if you weren’t from an N-law school or had influence with a law firm partner. Having been rejected by several internship programs, I remember wanting to give up on my legal profession dreams. I nevertheless studied hard and made the most of the few internship opportunities I did manage to secure.
My real break came on 22 September 2011 (yes, the date is imprinted in my mind) when I secured a job with the Mumbai office of the then Amarchand Mangaldas through the GLC campus placement program. After all the rejections I had faced till then, I was absolutely over the moon to have been selected by one of the best names in the industry based purely on merit. My years of hard work and my family’s faith in me had finally paid off. I couldn’t wait to treat my family to a lavish dinner with my first salary (it was Konkan Café at the President Hotel — my mother’s favourite). The rest, as they say, is history.
In India, working females still have a responsibility to maintain their household. You are on the next level of achievement, how do you balance your professional and personal life?
A lot is written about working mothers and their struggles (rightfully so!). However, there is an unspoken challenge being faced by many working women in India — balancing professional lives while also being the caregiver of aged parents. With age come many illnesses, and unfortunately, India’s professional caregiver services are very expensive and unreliable. Further, not every Indian woman is a part of a large joint family with several helping hands at home. After everything our parents do for us, we would be unjust in abandoning them in their hours of need. Invariably, the caregiving duties fall on the women of the house.
My mother was extremely ill and constantly in and out of hospitals for about a decade which spanned through my law school and the formative years of my career. At that time, we were not working from home, but I feigned sickness and worked from home, hospital, and everywhere else.
I will not lie that it was a struggle to balance my stressful work hours, caregiving responsibilities, and just finding time to unwind; I came close to having a nervous breakdown. However, with the support of my immediate family members, I dragged myself through the hard times and found normalcy in mundane tasks.
Today work from home has helped me find a better balance between my professional and personal life.
During my mother’s caregiver journey, I rarely asked for help and kept my situation under the wraps at the office to continue with the image of normalcy. I have now learned that it is important to be open about any difficulties you are personally facing and not fear being judged or professionally reprimanded — especially women. Even if people return to their office full time, they should be more than encouraged to seek any assistance if needed. After all, each office colleague also has her/his own family and we can make it a safe working space by supporting each other.
Apart from being suit up, what interests you in your leisure time?
The two things I love the most and help with my stress management — spending time with animals and exercising.
For several years, I have fostered and helped with the adoption of stray animals. In the coronavirus-induced lockdown, stray animals in my locality (and all over India) were cut off from their daily food source and were going hungry. With work from home, I was able to feed and take care of the strays in my area every day. This has now become a part of my routine and I feel incomplete without greeting my furry friends. Lately, I have also been researching animal protection laws (or lack thereof) in India. All life forms need to be equally respected and protected by law. My work and views about speciesism, animal rights, and preserving the natural environment would make for a whole separate interview!
Exercise and the endorphins released as a result have helped me emotionally cope with some of the toughest phases in my life. I would especially recommend it to lawyers; our work can be extremely overwhelming. Physical fitness does not necessarily mean an hour of HIIT session or pumping heavyweights at the gym; it may be a brisk walk for 30 minutes around your colony. If you do not exercise, please do not wait for the New Year or a Monday! Please start slowly and you will notice positive differences — physical and mental.
We found that you are an active social worker. Would you like to mention your beliefs about the same?
Many years ago, I had read a quote by American actor Lily Tomlin which stuck with me — “I always wondered why somebody doesn’t do something about that. Then I realized I was somebody.” It dawned upon me that I had the power to help those in need myself and did not have to wait for NGOs to do the work; NGOs are already inundated with the work pressure.
A small act of compassion can go a long way in improving someone’s life. The act can be as simple as buying Diwali lights and giveaways every year from NGOs instead of an established brand.
As lawyers, we do hold a certain position of power in society and legal aid is one of the most useful services we can offer to non-profits. I have had the privilege of helping a few with their legal affairs; the work is challenging and only improves my legal acumen. There are several causes out there, be it children’s education, women empowerment, poverty, terminal illnesses, environment, and so forth. If each of us picked one cause that we felt passionate about and donated our money and time towards it, our future generations will experience a kinder world.
The covid-19 pandemic was tough for all of us and we can still find its traces now and then. Do you want to suggest anything specific to the readers concerning the same?
Covid-19 has been surreal and its effects devastating globally. Many people have lost livelihoods and many more loved ones. In this light, the pandemic has brought about discussions on an extremely pertinent and unspoken topic in India — grief. The Oxford Learners Dictionary defines grief as “a very sad feeling, especially when somebody dies.” I never felt the need to research the meaning of grief until my mother passed away pre-pandemic pursuant to her illness. To me grief is undefinable.
Fully being aware of my mother’s oncoming death and having mentally prepared for the same, grief took me by surprise after a month of her passing and punched me hard in my gut. I was on my way to the airport for a work trip abroad when it hit me that I will never again receive the hundred “annoying” calls/messages from my mother asking me if I had gone through security, landed safely, had eaten well, and have enough jackets to brace the cold. It was the most damning feeling in the world.
Since then grief continues to hit me in waves, even at some of the most inappropriate occasions with varying intensities. The reason I was so surprised at feeling grief is that none of my close friends or relatives who had lost loved ones ever warned me or confided in me how hard it is to lose someone. Every single person experiences their own, highly curated version of grief, and each version is hard.
While the circumstances are extremely unfortunate, it has been encouraging to see more people come forward and speak about their encounters with grief. Reading other people’s experiences with grief had helped me feel less alone, and I hope to spread more awareness on this issue. In India, Bhavana Issar’s organisation, Caregiver Saathi has created a safe space for family caregivers to exchange stories on caregiving and grief, and I am extremely happy to be associated with it. Mental well-being is necessary to be able to perform well at your job. There is no shame in asking for help. If anything, you will be doing your job and yourself a disservice if you don’t.
Where can we see you in the next 10 years? Are you planning for something big or staying low at the moment?
Hopefully still be alive, healthy and happy — a decade is a long time away! Experience over the years has taught me to take one day at a time. Too many of my plans have been foiled due to unseen circumstances. Then there were plans I never made, and still, life fell into place. I do hope to continue making a positive difference — whether in the lives of animals or human beings (several or even one).
Any career tips to the young minds in the investment sector?
Foremost, I would like to give a general but a very important tip to every young professional out there —please do not compare your career trajectory to others and ever feel less worthy. Yes, it is important to draw inspiration from success stories, but success again is a relative term. Each of us comes from varying backgrounds, societies, support systems (or lack thereof) and we can only try our best.
For young lawyers looking to start/move in-house and particularly enter the investment sector — it is a very exciting space to be in and there is ample opportunity to do good challenging legal work.
Even the pandemic could not dampen the ever-buzzing VC/PE activity in India. India is filled with talented founders and ambitious teams, and it gives great joy to be a small part of this thriving ecosystem. However, move in-house for the right reasons — there is also hard work involved and timelines to meet. Instead of verbose paragraphs, please learn to put legal advice in simpler words. Even I am learning to better my skills every day; learning is a continuous process without an expiration date. Enter the field with an open mind. As stated earlier, in-house is less about interacting with other lawyers and more with persons from different career backgrounds. It is a great opportunity to learn different topics from them while sharing your legal expertise. In the end, find joy in the work you do, and the rest will follow (and if it doesn’t, do not be disheartened, your time will come!).
1. There are various acclaimed roles credited to your name, be it a law firm partner, startup founder or mentor. Which of these resonate with you the most?
I wear different hats, but my core function is to improve myself and learn throughout the journey. The identity of a lawyer resonates with me the most. Even if I had all the money in the world and the luxury of not working, I’d still want to practice law since it’s something that I am passionate about. Law has also allowed me to teach and mentor people.
2.What motivated you to pursue law as a career?
I had strayed from the law after my 10th and pursued science for 2 years with a misconception that I would become a doctor, but I realised early on in my journey that it wasn’t my cup of tea. I was entirely consumed and fascinated by law from the very first day. I come from a family of lawyers. My mother worked for a brief period as a lawyer dealing with insurance and accidental tribunal matters. At the same time, my father was a criminal lawyer, because of which the conversations in the household always circled law. My brother is an academician and teaches corporate, securities and tax laws to professional students. l I discovered a new perspective on the law when I interned at Desai & Diwanji with senior partner Aslesha Gowarikar.
3.Could you share with us any experience of discrimination based on your gender or any other trait, if any?
There is a lot of bigotry that surrounds women. The way I dress, talk and or carry/groom myself is very westernised and modern. It’s not uncommon for women to be told that they have reached a position because of the way they talk, look and dress. I have also faced discrimination where I was denied rental houses to reside in due to my religion. There is a lot of bias in society still very prevalent even in developed metro cities which a lot of people have to face on a daily basis, be it, religion, gender, colour or caste. I firmly believe that playing the victim card doesn’t help anyone. One has to do their part and if there is anything wrong happening not only against you but even to someone else, stand up and speak that’s the only way we can see change. Just keep working and have the results back their merit.
Partner at Kochhar and Co
4.Post your LLB, and while acquiring your Company Secretary (CS) from ICSI, you were a full time Articled Associate at Desai & Diwanji. How did you manage your time for your education when your legal career was in its budding stage?
I started my CS at an early stage. I had already started preparing for it when I was doing law. I allocated any free time towards studying for it. I did not believe in studying long hours. Instead, I indulged in quality studying. I had no social life then because I directed all my focus on studying. As a result, I was both a lawyer and CS. My corporate work helped me to understand CS subjects better.
5. In 2019, you co-authored a book called “GOODS AND SERVICE TAX: No masterpiece was ever created by a Lazy Artist.”. Please share with us a little about the writing process.
I teach income tax, and I’ve always wanted to publish a book. We’ve previously written textbooks for our students, but a book is a whole other ballgame. So when the legislation for GST was passed, my brother and I decided to publish a book on it after studying the nuances. The aim was to create a useful book for CA/CFA students as well as professionals who need to work on taxes.
6.How did Lex-Sign – e signing portal materialise in 2021? Was entrepreneurship always on the checklist?
I have always been zealous about entrepreneurship. When I became a lawyer and started working at Desai & Diwanji, I visited startup seminars on weekends. I loved the environment revolving around discussions of ideas and business. Entrepreneurs offer new-age solutions to the management of problems. During the pandemic, I noticed that most of my clients had problems regarding the execution of documents, procurement of stamp papers, access to documents stored in their offices when personal meetings were impossible. With the shut down of the trains, access to the office became very difficult. The idea of Lex-Sign came to my mind where we offer to provide easy digitisation of documents so that work can go on seamlessly. It’s a digitally encrypted platform for online signing, digital signing, Aadhar number based signing and procurement of stamp paper from across the country. The confidentiality of the customers is valued and protected. We rolled out this new venture with this mindset, and we’ve gotten a positive response this far.
7.What inspired you to move towards a more tech-savvy culture?
As part of the WFH culture, we realised the importance of being tech-savvy and digitalised in all aspects of our life. Therefore, it is essential to move to an online platform even for documentation to utilise the force of digitalisation fully. Most of my clients were facing this issue; therefore, something needed to be done about it. As a corporate lawyer, I understood the intricacies of privacy and data privacy laws and hence Lex Sign became a one-stop solution for e documentation.
8.What steps are you taking to ensure that the process is simplified for anyone who is not tech-friendly or adaptive?
For Lex-Sign, we arranged for almost no human interface requirement to carry out documentation. If someone needed to execute a document, they can simply go on the LEx Sign portal, order a stamp paper, upload the pdf document and then sign it without needing someone to handhold them through the process.
9.A year after joining Kochar & Co. as a senior associate, you were elevated to partnership in the shortest time. How did this transition occur?
In Kochar, I joined as a senior associate, and within four months, I became a principal associate there. During the pandemic in September 2020, I was made a partner. The journey was very fast-paced, and the firm felt the necessity for a change in my designation. The promotions may seem fast-paced but it is the result of the 11 years I have put into my career.
10.You were the core council of advisors for Fincity in their acquisition by MasterCard in 2020, which was part of “Deals of the Year’ by India Business Law Journal. Attending such matters must be different from your other projects. How did you prepare to tackle this mega-deal?
I was very fortunate to be a part of this said deal which was into the Fintech space. Like most deals, it involved long hours of work and some days felt longer than the others but I always kept a solution-oriented mindset. As a team leader, the most important thing is to not push down the agony and stress on your team members or the lower verticals. The mere role of a mentor or leader is to take control of situations when things fall apart and to accept accountability while cheering everyone else for success. I always tell people to take needed breaks, not to get burn out. That’s the only way one can perform consistently in the long run.
I believe that in the whole scheme of things, legal advice is merely one segment. One needs to understand the issue holistically from their client’s perspective without sticking to the only nuances of the legality involved but go beyond that into the commercial aspects as well.
11.Jahangir Tutorials was founded by you, where the mission is to impart education for ambitious CS students. Your enterprise has also achieved considerable feats like your students securing AIR 1 AIR 2 and AIR 3 examinations. Jahangir Tutorials also has a youtube channel where you upload your lectures. Has Jahangir Tutorials evolved their pedagogical approach with time? How well-received and appreciated was the response to this endeavour?
At Jahangir Tutorials, subjects for the Company secretary exams are taught for all levels. In the Pre-pandemic period, physical classes were conducted, and anyone with access to it could join us. With the onset of Covid, a change was made to make Jahangir Tutorials accessible to everyone by uploading our lectures online on Youtube. We received a positive response and today we are the fastest-growing CS digital class in India. This is also because we value the time of others and keep our lectures crisp and apt. We received appreciation for our online videos from people all across India and how they helped them with their preparations for CS exams. Teaching is the most fulfilling job because you get a direct stake in creating the leaders of tomorrow.
12.Lastly, any words to the wise?
In my professional journey, I have learnt that there is no substitute for hard work. There is no luck or coincidences but pure results of one’s merit. Don’t let go of the focus at any point. There is no shortcut to being rich either: it’s a simple swap of service for money. However, I always believe that the ultimate important quality to possess is to make sure you’re a better person than you were yesterday. You can be the best lawyer and know the best application of your knowledge, but if you’re not kind and lack empathy, you gain nothing at the end of the day. Speak well always and use your knowledge and communication to do good for others.
Amrit Subhadarsi is currently an assistant professor at KIIT University. He completed his BA LLB from School of Law, KIIT Deemed to be University, and his masters in Corporate Law from National Law University, Odisha in 2017 and was nominated as LLM student representative to Prof G.V Ajappa, a leading expert on jurisprudence in India. He has written a book on Standard Essential Patents and abuse of dominance in the global telecommunication industry, which has been published by Laxmi Book Publications. He regularly engages with institutions and regulators alike to provide a platform for students to learn practical insights into the workings in a particular industry in corporate law. Before joining the academia, He has also worked as a trademark analyst in legal consultancy wherein, He has engaged extensively in analyzing and preparing reports on trademark case laws from the European Union and Commonwealth.
In this interview we speak to him about:
His interest in academia
His opinion on the Indian legal education system; and
His experience as an Assistant Professor at KIIT University.
HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO INTRODUCE YOURSELF TO OUR READERS? PLEASE TELL US SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR PRE-COLLEGE LIFE?
I am a soft-spoken and amicable person, with a passion for reading and writing. I am a native of Odisha and belong to a non-legal background. During my higher secondary schooling in Kolkata, I was a shy kid, a major obstacle in a society which considers shyness as a demerit. I was fortunate enough that I had good friends to guide me during my tough days. I was and still am a voracious reader. I never had much inclination towards pursuing commerce or science and I felt like I had a calling for arts subjects. Particularly, subjects like political science and sociology became my favourite. While reading newspapers, often I came across legal articles and interviews which I used to read with great interest and thus began the quest for having legal knowledge.
YOU HAVE DONE YOUR MASTERS IN LAW. HOW WAS YOUR LLM EXPERIENCE AT NLU ORISSA. WHAT ARE THE CHALLENGES YOU HAD FACED WHILE STUDYING AT NLU ORISSA?
The introduction of one year LLM has turned out to be a bane. One year LLM does not allow the student to explore research avenues effectively. For instance, if a person wishes to be a member of a research center, or take part in moot courts, then such avenues are not there. Further, it does not allow the student to make any one particular area as a specialization because many subjects have to be studied in such a short span of time. There are few institutes that encourage LLM students to take part in moots. But, this needs to be institutionalized, because more than mooting skills, research in moot courts can help the LLM student to make it a specialization later. I was fortunate enough, that despite the one year LLM, I managed to be an active member of the Center for Corporate Law, be nominated to represent the institution in a lecture series by Professor G.V Ajappa, a leading authority on jurisprudence in India. Also, my dissertation secured the highest marks which I have converted into a book slated for a release in March.
WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON THE INDIAN LEGAL EDUCATION SYSTEM?
At the moment there is a large vacuum in the Indian legal education system. Systematic changes need to happen across three levels: students, parents and institution. At the student level, they need to understand that five years of legal education is not to just to train them with skills for the corporate sector but to equip them with analytical skills prerequisite for the legal profession. This brings me to the other two levels: parents and institutions. It is here that a paradigm shift is required. Many parents look forward to a well-paying job after graduation, but not necessarily quality education. In India therefore, the focus is on to generate placements and not delivering quality education. Fortunately, KIIT School of Law has emerged as an exception to this trend as among other laurels it has now secured the most innovative law school award in 2018.
HOW HAS LEGAL EDUCATION SYSTEM CHANGED OVER THE YEARS AND WHAT ARE THE ADVANTAGES AS WELL AS DISADVANTAGES OF THIS CHANGE? WHAT CAN STUDENTS OF TODAY LEARN FROM THE OLD SYSTEM OF LEGAL EDUCATION?
The legal education system has undergone a sea change over the years. Some advantages include many institutions like KIIT School of Law and a few others providing excellent infrastructure and resources to students. The new legal education system is also incorporating emerging trends in society, through classroom innovation, developing legal clinics, practical training for mock trials and moot courts, corporate and business laws being part of the curriculum more frequently. The advantage is that the students get the opportunity to learn practical aspects apart from theory at a very young stage, unlike in the earlier system, where such skills were taught only in the final years. Besides these advantages, the demerit is that students are no longer researching from books and journals as they used to before and this is inhibiting their development of analytical skills. Students must go beyond the ‘Google it’ mentality to ‘original research’ mentality.
WHAT PROMPTED YOU TO CHOOSE TEACHING AS A CAREER?
I always had an inclination for reading, writing and researching on my areas of interest. I never found research as boring as many in their student days often complain. Quite frankly, I was confused for quite some time even in my final year as well and still remember how my friends tolerated my constant changes in decisions. Eventually, as I was delivering a demo lecture during one of my post graduation classes, I realized this is something I could do passionately, not feel like work and not be bored. When you come out of class fully satisfied, that is when you know that you are in the right profession. These coupled with my patience for research and writing help cement my decision for academia.
TELL US ABOUT YOUR TEACHING METHODOLOGY.
Depending upon the subject, the teaching method varies. For instance, a paper having a mix of theoretical and practical knowledge ensures that I adopt lecture and Socratic Method along with practical training such as classroom simulations, or activity based class assignments, etc. For theory subjects, I usually adopt a mix of lecture and Socratic dialogue method. Before beginning the class, I regularly ask the students about the discussions in the previous class so the next class commences from where we left off. Reading assignments for the next class are also given.
HOW IMPORTANT A ROLE DO YOU THINK LAW SCHOOL PLAYS IN SHAPING ONE’S CAREER?
It is common knowledge in legal fraternity that teaching standards in Indian law schools have come down drastically. That does not mean all law schools should be painted with the same brush. Both the institution and student complement each other for laying down the foundation for future development. The current crop of students comes with a ‘fixed mindset’, whereas what is needed is a ‘growth mindset’. The same standard for any law school also. Based on their mindset, the student shapes his or her formative years at law school.
All law schools may not be perfectly equipped to provide practical training, but they do provide opportunities for learning them through moot courts, internships, training courses, among others. Law schools are platforms for a vibrant mix of theoretical and practical training. But to learn them, the student has to navigate his way through networking. It is not a one-way street. Both students and institutions when complement each other, it leads to holistic development. What is needed therefore is a way to engage with students and institutions holistically. For instance, KIIT School of Law is one of the few institutions where because of engagement; many of our students have excelled in national and international moots, publications, higher academic research, among others.
YOU ARE NOW WORKING AS AN ASSISTANT PROFESSOR AT KIIT UNIVERSITY. HOW IS YOUR WORK EXPERIENCE SO FAR?
The experience of working at the school of law, KIIT Deemed to be University has been very comforting. When you start working at a place that is unfamiliar to you, there are some challenges you need to encounter, for instance, blending in with new people, with the work culture. But KIIT has been special for me for a number of reasons. Firstly, working at your alumnus provides me with a sense of pride when viewed from the other side of the table and working alongside many of my faculties who are always there to guide me. This helps increase your productivity manifold and sense of belongingness. Secondly, KIIT School of Law has been awarded the most innovative law school in India for 2018 and KIIT University has also earned a place in the Times Higher Education rankings. Working at a prestigious institution like this has given me exposure like never before and has definitely added to my professionalism traits.
COULD YOU GIVE OUR YOUNG READERS CERTAIN TIPS ON EXCELLING IN ACADEMICS?
Firstly, it is imperative for the faculty to reach class not on time but five minutes before time as it allows the faculty to prepare mentally. Students also would know that time must be maintained and consequently, the flow of teaching will not be disturbed. One should understand that excelling in academics not only means being a good teacher, but also a good guide, a good writer and researcher. If writing, lecturing and researching fascinate a student, then academics can be given a shot. Hence, prioritization is critical.
Preparing the agenda of the class a day before leaves room for actual preparation for class. One should also accept the fact that not all students will have equal levels of aptitude and curiosity which is why regurgitating whatever preparation was made before class is not going to be enough. Students expect innovativeness in teaching and hence the teacher must be updated about subject content (hard skills) and an effective orator and communicator (soft skills). Also just like the student, once in academics, the individual must not stop reading. Effort must be made to make the teaching as interdisciplinary as possible so that both students and teachers have scope to add value to classroom discussions. Lastly, research and writing must be at the highest level. For instance, I have successfully converted my dissertation, which secured the highest marks, into a book which is slated for release this March.
WHAT IS YOUR ADVICE TO STUDENTS WHO WISH TO PURSUE CAREER IN ACADEMICS BUT ARE CONFUSED BETWEEN LITIGATION AND ACADEMICS?
Both litigation and academics have their own set of desired skill sets and perks. There is a common misconception that a job in academia means a comfortable lifestyle. This fallacious attitude leads many to take up academics as well. But I believe, as a student, one should first prepare a list of do’s and don’ts. For instance, the latter can include not succumbing to peer pressure and herd mentality. This will allow the student to take a realistic approach.
The former can include watching out for signs where the student can develop skills. If the student has the inclination to research, write, loves to speak on a platform, and just loves to read, teaching is ideal. However, if the idea is to use the aforesaid to practice and argue before a judge, he or she must be prepared to struggle for years in litigation before making decent money. Of course, such choices do get affected by scenarios like mounting student loans or other financial burdens, in which case choosing litigation instead of a well-paid job is a pursuit in a fool’s paradise.
HOW DID YOU DECIDE TO WRITE YOUR FIRST BOOK COMPARATIVE LAW RELATING TO PATENTS AND ABUSE OF DOMINANCE IN THE GLOBAL TELECOMMUNICATION INDUSTRY? WHAT WERE THE CHALLENGES YOU FACED AS A FIRST-TIME WRITER?
I was already interested in this topic during my LL.B and got familiar with this topic when our team secured the approval for participation in our second moot court after clearing the intra moot court stage. However, at the same time, our final year placements were about to commence and I did not want to miss my shot at placements. So I had to leave this opportunity. But, I knew someday I would engage in research in this area, though not definitely knowing that I would publish a book on it someday. Broadly there are two sets of challenges for a first time writer like me. The first is to not get carried away by believing that merely because one is skilled at writing a good journal article, one should also be equally good when writing a book. The time invested, the patience utilized and the numerous proofreads that goes into one chapter for a book is a herculean task. A seasoned writer will, of course, know how to vary his or her strategy regarding publication in a journal and a publication as a book. The second challenge is that in a topic as specific as Standard Essential Patents in Telecom Industry and Competition Law, where the scope in India is ever increasing, it is very difficult to write within established regulatory rules, as the same is changing very quickly. Plus, due to lack of jurisprudence in India, I compared US, EU, UK, China and Japan, which are the other jurisdictions where such cases have had the most prominent impact during my research, and have written India’s first of a kind book on linkages between Intellectual Property and competition law in the telecom industries in major jurisdictions.
HOW DOES ONE GET THEIR BOOK PUBLISHED?
Being a first-time writer, I did not have contacts with established publication houses. However, I took my chances and made contact with few big publication houses, where my work was rejected because the market demand is for books catering to general subjects like Intellectual Property or Competition Law, but not an amalgamation of both. This is understandable because of the demand by students and also the fact that with a first time author the publication houses will be a little apprehensive. It’s important therefore that one uses professional networking sites such as Linkedin to use it to find and connect with publishers who can take a chance with first time choices. In other words, an open mind has to be kept. So, I approached another publication house as I believe that one needs to start somewhere regardless of the size of the publication house. I was initially apprehensive but I must give credit to them as they did their job professionally and meticulously changed the content, the font, the footnote font, page borders, book design and covers.
HOW DID YOU MANAGE THE TIME TO WRITE A BOOK?
Frankly speaking, this book is actually my dissertation in corporate law, which secured the highest marks during my post graduation. I never started with the intention to write a book, but I knew I had to give it all. So instead of working on projects which were given to us, I started working on my dissertation, a herculean task when six jurisdictions had to be comparatively analysed. I knew I had to maintain attendance for exams and could not pull all-nighters (which personally I love). So, I skipped some of my classes, sat throughout the whole day, and engaged in back-breaking research work and compilation. But, I am glad it was worth it and the hard work paid off.
WHERE DO YOU WANT TO SEE YOURSELF FIVE TO TEN YEARS DOWN THE LINE?
Legal academia is no longer confined to just imparting quality education. Faculties are also engaged in consultancy and advisory work. So in five to ten years, I would love for myself to be an established academician in my chosen field of specialization and create value through new avenues. It could be through publishing books and papers, value generation through consultancy for the institution and most importantly creating a conducive classroom learning atmosphere where students yearn for my lectures.
WHAT WOULD BE YOUR PARTING MESSAGE TO OUR READERS WHO ARE PRIMARILY LAW STUDENTS AND YOUNG LAWYERS?
My advice would be to never stop exploring. There is a no bigger teacher than one’s own curiosity. One should always be on the lookout for ‘unlearning’ as it helps to widen understanding of how a system works. And lastly, students must accept that the legal job market is not what it used to be decades ago. There are tons of options and it is but obvious that they will be confused. So trust your instincts and find avenues which match your desired skill sets. The path will follow.
